FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  use of kegs (CCAC-LAD) <wboyle at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
  hops,beetles,comments (Russ Gelinas)
  PET bottles, dishwashers, overnight brewing ("Deborah Poirier")
  Flame (Bob Gorman)
  brewpub information (taylor)
  Bacteria Problem?? (Joe Rolfe)
  Confusion ("Rad Equipment")
  S delbrukii identification (Dennis J. Templeton)
  Water (G.A.Cooper)
  Priming with honey (Guy D. McConnell)
  Re: ESP/culturing/malehops (Richard Stueven)
  Re: Buffalo Confusion (Richard Stueven)
  What I've Learned... ("Mr. Pete")
  THREADing for the Mac (Chris McDermott)
  Set Mashes (Jack Schmidling)
  Georgia Micro Request (Norm Hardy)
  Oatmeal Stout (G.A.Cooper)
   (Michael Gildner)
  Mashing and Lauter Tun (Thomas D. Feller)
  hops problem & hops question (Carl West)
  Miller's New Book & BOMC (Jim Grady)
  S..l..o...w ferment - in need of advice (gkushmer)
  Arnoldus and Gambrinus (C.R. Saikley)
  Re: Raw Meat???? (P. Couch)
  re. isolating S. delbrueckii (Michael Biondo)
  Follow-up on my comments re: Gorman (ZLPAJGN)
  Mead from Micah Millspaw (BOB JONES)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:     Mon, 27 Jul 92 9:46:49 EDT
From: William Boyle (CCAC-LAD) <wboyle at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  use of kegs

   I remember some time back somebody mentioned they
fermented in a 5 gal keg.  If anybody has tried this could
you please post the advantages/disadvantages of doing this,
and any tips or hints on doing this (if you think it's a good
idea).

                                   B^2


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Date:    Mon, 27 Jul 1992 10:21:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: hops,beetles,comments

  A friend of has a Cascade (we think) hops plant with what we guessed to
be 6+ oz. of cones on it.  My Cascade has maybe 1 oz.  We live about 2
miles apart.  He allowed the plant to have some 12 shoots; I only let mine
have 4, as states common wisdom.  Now I wonder about that wisdom.  There
are other factors which effected our yields (different age plants, different
soils and sun exposure), but I'm wondering just why it's supposedly best to
allow only 3-4 shoots.  Any hops experts have the answer?

   Thanks for the info on Japanese-Beetle-killing bacteria; I'll look into
that.  My lawn also happens to have grubs.....wonder if there's a connection.

   That's lots of wondering, also about this Bob/Jack/et.al. discussion.  I
thought it was already common knowledge on the HBD that's Jack's "world's
greatest beer" was really not; that Jack himself admitted it was overhopped 
and was just "the beer that was ready" for the conference.  So when Jack 
talks of his WGB I always take it to be tongue-in-cheek and self-deprecating.
If I've read Jack correctly over the past few months, I don't doubt he
enjoys jabbing with his WGB comments because he knows how much it aggravates 
some of you!  My final comment on this, and it applies to many other things
on this list as well, is to lighten up.  We all want to make the best 
beverages possible, and making beer can and does involve complicated 
scientific issues, but, hey, we're making *Beer*, not looking for an AIDS 
vaccine.  So, relax........

Russ

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Date:         MON, 27 Jul 92 10:49:36 EDT
From: "Deborah Poirier" <POIRIER at INRS-ENER.UQuebec.CA>
Subject:      PET bottles, dishwashers, overnight brewing

from: poirier at inrs-ener.uquebec.ca

Hello fellow fizzicists!

Well today's posting on 1 liter plastic soda bottles was quite a surprise to me,
since I assumed EVERYBODY used them! I guess it's a Canadian thing, but worth
trying, IMHO, since they come in good sizes (1 and .5 liter) and you don't have
to wash labels off.  BUT the best reason to use at least a few of them per batch
is that you can squeeze them to see how your carbonation is coming along. For
impatient types like myself, they're great. To quote a brewing buddy, when it's
hard, it's ready. :)

Now I have two questions:

1. do many of you use your dishwashwers to sanitize bottles and hoses? I do,
with extra hot water and I slosh in a few glugs of bleach midway along. No
problems so far, but is this the safest way to go? Would "sparkleen" or just
regular dishwashing detergent work better?

2. the other night, late into the sparge, I decided to abandon ship and go to
bed, leaving 6 gallons of wort in pots on the stove (no heat), which I boiled
and hopped the next morning when I was feeling perkier. So far it has fermented
uneventfully, and I found it quite pleasant to split the brewtime into parts.
AM I IN TROUBLE NOW???

Thanks for any advice.
Deb

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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 10:41:37 EDT
From: bob at rsi.com (Bob Gorman)
Subject: Flame

Oops!

That post about Jack's beer did not come out as intended, not even
a little bit satirical.  This will teach me to post while in a
really foul mood, such a post is out of character for me and is
unexceptable.  The only thing to do from here is to apologize, in
public.

So, I'd like to apologize, first to Jack.  Sorry Jack, don't let
my harsh opinions stop you from enjoying your brewing career.
Second to the readership of the HBD for having me start up such a
bad thread.  Third to the entire homebrew community for dragging
the art of homebrewing into the gutter.  Fourth to all the
homebrewers who know me personally, for acting like such a shmuck.
Last to everyone who's gone through the effort to reply to those
comments.  Sorry.

With that done, I'd like to ask people to stop trying to castrate
me on the HBD, and send all hate mail direct to me.  I had intended
to get this post out last Friday, I hope it gets published
reasonably soon.

 -- Bob Gorman

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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 11:14:30 EDT
From: taylor at e5sb.osdhw.syr.ge.com (taylor)
Subject: brewpub information

I'm taking a trip to TAMPA/SARASOTA FL area second week in Aug. can anybody
give me any information about brewpubs in this area? 

Also I'm from upper NY state does anybody know of any brewpubs in this area?
I would appreciate any info.

All this talk of bottles, I just go down to the local distributor and pay 5 cent
apiece for grolsh flip tops and clean them in the dish washer, they work fine.
haven't notice any skunky taste.....

One more question what is the main different in using corn sugar and regular
house hold sugar for making brew?  I've used both, the only different is that 
it seems to take long for the taste to come out using house hold sugar or maybe
its me.. any ideas..........

Todd  

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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 11:06:20 EDT
From: Joe Rolfe <jdr at wang.com>
Subject: Bacteria Problem??

hi all,

whilst labeling my last batches, one of which has been in the bottle
over a month ( can drink that fast :) i saw a strange "growth" and film
on some but not all bottles.  from picking thru the brew book i have
it appears to be Acetobacter (milky film on the surface).  the bottles 
in question also have "white spots around the surface of the beer 
(sorta like ring around the collar). on all bottles of all batches
that i have done in the past i remember a slite film on the surface
(holding up to a lite and looking from below the surface) but none
as obvious as this particular batch.

It does not appear like strands or rope (although there seems to be 
some specs floating around in the volume of the bottle).  Seems like 
i can rule out Lactobacillus.

taste seems fair - it was a very bitter batch to begin with and the quality
of the hops used was marginal.  it does taste a little sour - could not
tell if vinegar was the flavor/sourness or not - all i had was cider
vinegar not the white (does it matter???).  

i am going to save one (at least) bottle to look at under a scope, and find
some willing soul to look/taste the stuff (any takers??? eastern mass). 

the batch previous did not show the same problem, and some of the bottles
in the same batch are still (looking) ok.  the batch after has been in the
bottles for only 2 weeks. i do remember a couple of the dreaded fruit flies
seem to be hanging around at the time (practical brewer indicates they can 
cause the problem)

for sanitation i have been using B-Brite - but may change. i have now gotten
ahold of an idophor concentrate that i will start using and save the b-brite 
for the cleaner portion of the fermenter and hoses. bottles usually go
into clorox (heavy doses) for a primary scrub/soak then rinse.  on bottling 
day another soak in clorox and jet spray rinse with hot water.  the bottling
is done by a wand with spring loaded tip, i have noticed in the past quite
a bit of splashing in the bottom of the bottle until the tip is coverd.  
i tip the bottle to limit the splashing as much as possible.

some questions:

How long does the B-Brite remain active as a sanitizer 
once added to warm-hot waters?

how long does it usually take for the various bugs to show up?
	bug releated to wort, fermentation and packaging

where do these bacteria ususally come from?

any one looked at the surface and seen this film? could it be from having
a fermentation going (ale) and this film be the so called skin that appears
during primary after the rocky foam head falls??

any one out there with some inputs??

thanks in advance 

joe rolfe

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Date: 24 Jul 92 11:57:59 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Confusion

Subject:  Confusion                             Time:9:47 AM     Date:7/24/92
>From Digest #932:

>Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 09:13:30 PDT
>From: gak at wrs.com (Richard Stueven)
>Subject: Re: HefeweiBbier in CA

>Mike McNally said:

>> All I can say is that the Hefeweizen from Twenty Tank was
>> even worse.

>Everything that Twenty Tank makes is even worse.

>Bill Owens may deserve credit for getting the California
>microbrewing industry off the ground, but his brewpubs
>make uniformly bad beer.

>gak

Richard; Just what does Mr. Owens have to do with 20 Tank? He has no
affiliation with the Martin brothers that I am aware of. While the beer at 20
Tank is generally on the sweet side and hopped less than I prefer, I have never
had one there which I would have called infected or seriously flawed. They
currently have an IPA running which is very pleasant. I must admit that I gave
the hefe-weizen a miss based on the comments here in the Digest.

RW...

      Russ Wigglesworth              CI$:      72300,61
|~~|  UCSF Medical Center            Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu
|HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324  Voice:    415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H)
|__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628


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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 12:03:59 -0400
From: djt2 at po.CWRU.Edu (Dennis J. Templeton)
Subject: S delbrukii identification



In response to Chuck about how to identify S. delbrukii, I summarize below
an experiment I wrote up here a few months ago:

I bought a pack of wyeast 3056 bavarian wheat (about 1 month outdated when
I finally opened it) and streaked the contents on malt agar plates.  there
were numerous colonies that largely looked the same... Chuck is right that
both spacing of the colonies and their genetic identity will determine
their size on the first plate.  Most of the colonies were pale cream white;
about 1% or less was more grayish and smaller.  

I picked a dozen to a fresh plate, making 3mm streaks with a sterile
toothpick for each.  The color difference was retained, but the size
difference was not imressive.  After a month on the plate, though, one of
the colony types was more "wrinkled"-- I think it was the creamy one, but I
can't recall now and my notes are at home.

Then I made up a dozen "starters" with DME in water... no hops, and
sterilized them.  After innoculation with the individual colonies, they all
fermented vigorously.  I tasted each at 2 weeks, and the taste was
consistent with the colony type:

The abundant creamy colonies made an estery somewhat sweet product that was
"weissbier-like"  I concluded that these were S. delbrukii.

The rare gray-ish colonies made a very dry product with no discernable
ester flavor.  I think these were the S. cerevisciae.

By this analysis the packet of wyeast was 99% delbrukii, and less than 1%
cerevisciae, but note that my packet was outdated.  I think your chances of
picking a delbrukii at random is pretty good, if you taste a test culture.

After I posted this, a couple of folks wrote that they use pure delbrukii
cultures in their weissbiers, and this is what I've done in the last couple
of batches.  I'm very satisfied with this approach.

good luck...

dennis

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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:07:47 +0100
From: G.A.Cooper at qmw.ac.uk
Subject: Water

There was so much activity recently that I avoided sending anything to 
HBD, but it seems to have gone quieter. I have no objections to free
offers, but could I request that future ones chose a small integer such
as 10 or 15 rather that 100. It might reduce the sudden overload of 
information that is too much for my limited brain.

But in passing I noticed a few items that were worth a comment, some of
which I make now. Apologies if these have been dealt with already.

Joe Rolfe HBD 922:
>	- my water is soften with a salt based softner...
If this is a standard domestic water softener that needs 'recharging' by
the addition of common salt, then don't use it for brewing liquor. I am
not a chemist, but I am told that these softeners do not reduce the amount
of salts in solution, but change them. For example Calcium Carbonate is
converted to Sodium Carbonate (or should they be bicarbonate?). The sodium
salts are 'soft' to the extent that they don't form a scum when used with
soaps/detergents, don't precipitate when heated and don't form (chalk) 
deposits on heating elements etc. That is they are 'soft' as far as the
washing machine and dish washer are concerned. They are not soft in the 
way the brewer needs their liquor. In fact you now have a liquor still
having carbonate ions (high pH) that are not as easily removed, and you
have increased the sodium content (not good if you have a dicky ticker).

John Freeborg also HB 922:
>How many all-grain people adjust their sparge water pH?  I've been reading
about putting lactic acid in the sparge water to achieve the proper pH which
helps improve extraction numbers.

There have been a number of replies to this one, so I shall just add that
if you are making pale ales, bitters etc then dilute (food grade) sulfuric
acid might be preferable to lactic acid (if you are using acids rather
gypsum). There are times when I might even consider using dilute HCl.

Geoff


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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 11:23:36 CDT
From: guy at mspe5.b11.ingr.com (Guy D. McConnell)
Subject: Priming with honey

    As another data point, I have primed a few batches with honey and I have
been very pleased with the results.  Contrary to what someone (sorry, can't
remember who) posted recently, and to what I myself thought, it does *not*
take longer to carbonate your beer than corn sugar.  I find that it takes just
about the same amount of time.  I have also primed with saved gyle, my favorite
method, and it does seem to take a little longer to carbonate.  I very rarely
use corn sugar to prime with any more.

- -- 
Guy McConnell
guy at mspe5.b11.ingr.com

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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 09:34:41 PDT
From: gak at wrs.com (Richard Stueven)
Subject: Re: ESP/culturing/malehops

In HBD #932, I boldly asserted:

>The Pale Bock is the only filtered Sierra Nevada beer.

 ...besides Summerfest, I mean.  (Oops.)

gak
107/H/3&4


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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 09:39:48 PDT
From: gak at wrs.com (Richard Stueven)
Subject: Re: Buffalo Confusion

In HBD #933, C.R. Saikley sez to me:

>There seems to be some confusion here. Bill Owens is not connected to
>20 Tank. He has founded 3 brewpubs.
[...details deleted...]

I'll trust C.R.'s information before my own.  Sorry for the confusion.

gak
107/H/3&4


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Date:         Sun, 26 Jul 92 20:15:51 EDT
From: "Mr. Pete" <ENM09857%UDELVM.BITNET at VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      What I've Learned...

Dear Fellow Brewers;
   I just read my latest HBD (the # escapes me now), and decided to put
in my two cents' worth.
   I have been brewing off-and-on for about 6 years now, and looking back,
the most important thing that I've learned is that we should ALWAYS be
having fun doing whatever we do, brewing, loving, and living!!  I've learned
this after much labor in my various occupations, one of which was as an
assistant brewer at a well-known microbrewery (now I think it's almost a
regional) in Oregon.
   During my brief tenure there, one of the things that struck me is that,
the process is the same, the ingredients are the same, the work a little
more hectic, and as always, the _possibility_ for worry the same.  The
interesting thing though, is that we were usually too busy to worry about
things because of the amount of work to be done.  And not that it would
help any either!  Granted, the water we were using was as pure as the driven
snow (as a matter-of-fact, it did come from a glacier), the yeast we were
using came from WYEAST, hops from the best hop yards around, and malt from
Great Western just down the river a bit.  This isn't to say that no other
brewery didn't use the same stuff, but you get the idea:  Use the best
ingredients you can---if your water is drinkable, then it should be okay;
try to use liquid yeast if possible (it makes a BIG difference);  hops are
hops, but make sure they're _fresh_.  Regarding malts, a lot of HBDers use
extracts, so I think I won't say any more 'bout that.
   As you can see, I have a tendency to get long-winded.  I guess what I really
want to say is use the HBD to exchange ideas and opinions, but keeping
comments _constructive_.  The recent string of disparaging remarks made me
wince and hope that I would have a little more cooth (sp?), lest one of my
beers not be to someone's liking.
   Well, I suppose I better get back to my insects.  Maybe next time my
brain won't be so fried (thesis time) and I'll be more organized.  Thanks,

Mr. Pete

P.S.  If you're ever in Hood River, ask for a Full Sail.

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Date: 27 Jul 1992 12:44:44 -0500
From: Chris McDermott <mcdermott at draper.com>
Subject: THREADing for the Mac

 THREADing for the Mac
For all you Mac users in HbD land who can't use  Tom Kaltenbachs, reportedly
excellent, program for doing searches through back digest on PCs:

I use a program call BBEdit, the bare-bones editor.  This is FREE program
that is not only an excelent TEXT editor, but it also can do disk based file
searches for text strings.  The strings can be specified as just a plain string
or as a regular expression (a la grep).  I leave it as an exercise for the
reader to discover the other neat features of this program.
  
BBEdit is availible via anonymous FTP from sumex-aim.stanford.edu archived as
/info-mac/app/bbedit-213.hqx in binhexed compact pro format.  It is,
alternatively availible from other archives mirroring the info-mac archive,
such as wuarchive.wustl.edu.

Standard disclaimers apply.

/Chris
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher K. McDermott       mcdermott at draper.com        (617) 258-2362
Charles Stark Draper Laboratory, Inc.
555 Technology Square, Cambridge, MA 02149 (USA)




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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 11:28 CDT
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Set Mashes


 mailx -s "MICROMASHING"  homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 11:40:17 CDT
 >From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
 
 >I don't know how to define "set", though, so put it this way:
 A normal sparge for me takes 2 hours.  Multiply by 1.5 if wheat malt
 was used, or 2.5 if it made up 50% of the grist.  Multiply by .6 when
 using < 7 lbs of grain (this is rare for me).
 
 Never having had one, I can only guess.  I presume it means that the wort 
 stops flowing.  If one thinks of the mash as starchy, sugary glue, reinforced 
 with husks, the importance of maintaining as high a temperature as possible, 
 consistant with not ruining the beer, becomes obvious.  When you let glue 
 cool, it sets.
 
 >I suspect that your use of the Maltmill has quite a bit to do avoiding
 set mashes. 
 
 I would love to agree with you but I still think it is temp.  But that is 
 what this poll is all about.  Let's hear from more people with set mashes.
 
 > I see now that the Malt Shop in WI is offering a "Maltmill"
 for $99.  Is this the one and only?
 
 Shonuff.  
 
 >Maybe this fall I'll get one, but for now, I'm trying to figure out
 how to produce enough beer for my own consumption with the least
 amount of effort possible.  This means using exracts only, making the
 least amount of mess possible, and I'm trying to get a Firestone keg
 system together.  I'm sick of putting in a 12-hr brew day, followed
 by an hour or two extra cleanup of the kithen the next day, followed
 by.....
 
 People love poking fun of my "window screen mash tun" aka Easymash but I have 
 it down to about 5 or 6 hours now and there is only one kettle to clean up.
 
 >From: bob at rsi.com (Bob Gorman)
 
 >This remark I can not leave untouched.  I tasted some of that beer.
 It was a terrible brew, infected, astringent and unbalanced.
 
 I wouldn't be so crude as to post the comments of George Fix here but I think 
 most of us who have read them probably give his a little more credibility.
 
 >  As one conference goer stated: "How fitting it's served in urine sample 
 cups.".
 
 For those not familiar with the rules, the contract for exhibit space 
 specifies that beer samples be served in glasses with a capacity of three 
 ounces or less.  I was simply following the rules.
 
js

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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 08:22:13 PDT
From: polstra!norm at uunet.UU.NET (Norm Hardy)
Subject: Georgia Micro Request

A quick question as to the state of the micros in the fine state of
Georgia.  I would appreciate any private replies; especially concerning
thoses breweries in the area in and around Atlanta.  Thanks

Norm Hardy

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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 18:45:51 +0100
From: G.A.Cooper at qmw.ac.uk
Subject: Oatmeal Stout

There have been requests for oatmeal stout recipes. Try this one from
the second edition of the Durden Park 'Old British Beers' book by John
Harrison. It is based upon Maclay's 63/- Oatmeal Stout brewed in 1909
(Maclay's was a Scottish brewery, and 63/- means 63 shillings). The OG
should be around 46. "A chewy, satisfying stout" 

Ingredients per imperial gallon (*see footnote):

  1.25 lb Pale Malt
  2 oz Amber Malt
  4 oz Black Malt
  0.75 lb Breakfast Oats
  1 oz Goldings

The oats should be good old-fashioned (Quaker) breakfast oats. Amber malt 
in this recipe means a 'speciality' grain roasted to a colour of around
70 EBC (somebody out there can convert that to lovibond) - should be a
roasted grain not a pale crystal malt. 

You can work out your own prefered method if you wish, but how about:
Mix the oats with 2 (imperial) pints boiling water and stand for 10 mins
before mixing with the malts. Stiff mash at 155 F for 3 hours then mash
out for 30 mins at 170 F. Boil for 1.5 hours (all the hops). Dry hop if
you wish.
(c) copyright reserved - so don't go putting this into other books
without asking permission!

* the footnote:
Q. If US pint is 16 fl oz, and imperial pint is 20 fl oz, why is it that
   1 US gallon is not 4/5 of imperial gallon?
A. We cannot agree what volume 1 oz water occupies. 1 US fl oz = 29.574ml
   1 imperial fl oz = 28.41ml. Therefore 1 US gallon = 5/6 imperial gallon
   (approx)

I suppose you all knew that already.

Geoff
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Geoff Cooper                   Phone:  +44 (0)71 975 5178
Computing Services             Fax:    +44 (0)71 975 5500
QMW                            e-mail: G.A.Cooper at uk.ac.qmw 
Mile End Road
London, E1 4NS


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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 07:42:02 EDT
From: mmlai!lucy!gildner at uunet.UU.NET (Michael Gildner)
Subject: 

harvesting hops

Hello,

I am reposting this simple question since it got lost in the
"Digest Marathon" earlier this month.
My question concerns harvesting hops.  Is it standard practice
to wash the cone after harvesting and drying or will rinsing
wash away the good stuff?  The reason I ask is that after 
drying and freezing my first harvest I noticed some small bugs
or spiders in the bag.  I'll probably rinse them before I use 
the hops or else I'll end up making "Spider Ale".

Mike Gildner


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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 10:38:20 PDT
From: thomasf at deschutes.ico.tek.com (Thomas D. Feller)
Subject: Mashing and Lauter Tun

First an opinion to go with all the others,

I also think that Bob Gorman attack was too much for the HBD, I just don't like
to read this stuff. I am not a big fan of Jack, I think a lot of his info is 
bunk but his also has his good points too. As far as the HBD goes lets just talk
about things related to brewing and leave the personal stuff some where else.

Now for a real question,

I am now building a cooler lauter tun and need some help. I bought a 5 gal.
round cooler which I think should be large enough for up to 8 lbs of grain. 
I am going to use a single step mash at 150-155F and sparge out at 170-175F.

So,
 
1. To make my filter I am going to use copper pipe with hole or slit cut into
to the bottom, which is better?  How about Jacks EASYMASH (yes I would love
to hear from Jack about this) what kind of screen does it use. Al. or Plastic?
Should I solder the conections?

 
2. How do I connect the copper pipe filter network to my valve? Should I use
the spring loaded valve that comes with the cooler or would it be better to 
use some other type of valve?


Please reply to me directly and I'll let everyone know what works for me,

Tom Feller

thomasf at vice.ico.tek.com 

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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 12:11:31 EDT
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: hops problem & hops question

Ok, so the vine got tall, and the top half is covered with cones that
will be ready soon.
 
The Problem:
Some of the cones have grown so large and close together that something
has taken up residence between them. I know this because there's some
spiderwebby-looking stuff in there. Maybe it's bugs, maybe it's fungus.
I figure if it's a fungus those cones are trash, but if it's bugs I may
be able to clean off the outside, do a little `internal inspection' and
maybe keep them if they look OK on the inside. Good idea? Bad idea?

I'm gonna need to dry these hops, I don't have enough to make it worth
building a dryer (maybe next year :) so I figure on just spreading 'em
out on some screens and waiting a few days.

The Question: 
Sunlight will skunk beer. The compound that gets skunked is from the
hops. How come the hops don't get skunked on the vine? I assume that
skunking only happens when the hop compounds are mixed with other beer
compounds and _then_ struck by the appropriate color of light. I expect
no problem with sun-drying my hops, am I wrong?


Carl

WISL,BM.


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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 8:49:49 EDT
From: Jim Grady <jimg at hpwalq.wal.hp.com>
Subject: Miller's New Book & BOMC

Are any other HBD subscribers members of Book-of-the-Month Club?  This month's
mailing is offering Dave Miller's new book, "Brewing the World's Great Beers"
for $8.50 + 2 dividend credits. 

Thought you would like to know if you have not seen it already.

 - --
Jim Grady                  |"The significant problems we face cannot be solved
Internet: jimg at wal.hp.com  | at the same level of thinking we were at when we
Phone: (617) 290-3409      | created them."
                           |                            Albert Einstein

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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 14:33:17 EDT
From: gkushmer at Jade.Tufts.EDU
Subject: S..l..o...w ferment - in need of advice


About  a week ago I went out and made up a batch of wort for Pale Ale.  For
yeast I used 1056 American Ale Yeast (liquid).  This  was the first time
I had used their new packaging since the eruption days of past, and
when the package hadn't visibly swelled after two days of culturing, I 
thought it might be more from the packaging than the contents within.

Come pitching time, I snipped open the package, hearing a little CO2 
release, and then threw it in the wort - shaking the carboy vigorously.

After a few days of nothingness, I called the shop and got a replacement
yeast package (same brand).  This time, the culture turned the package
into a pregnant cow and I pitched, aerated, and hoped.

The next morning, there was some activity, but not an awful lot.  24 hours
later, there was nothing much going on.  This wort has never seen high 
krausen and I was very careful in all of my procedures.  

What I need to know is: would yeast nutrient help at this stage?  What
should I do if the yeast doesn't take off?  Should I re-pitch again?
Is there a chance that there was something toxic in the original package
that might be killing off the yeast?

This is becoming a bit troublesome!  Any help or advice would be
appreciated.  BTW, I forgot to take an OG reading, so I can't really
compare the rate of progress (readings have never phased me much
anyway.)

Cheers,

- --gk


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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 11:23:47 PDT
From: grumpy!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Arnoldus and Gambrinus


From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>

>Ahem, not to refute your thoroughly interesting article on the breweries
>of Bruge, C.R., but the Czech name Gambrinus as the patron saint of brewers.

>Anyone got the low down, will the REAL patron saint of brewers please
>stand up???

Glad you found the story interesting. 
The confusion here seems to be coming from your assumption that there is
a single, bona fide, universally accepted patron saint of brewers, and that
all others are apocryphal. This is simply not the case. 

In Belgium, the patron saint of brewers is Saint Arnoldus, Arnold the Strong
of Oudenaarde. He invoked god to create more beer after an Abbey in Flanders
collapsed in the 11th century. Images of Saint Arnoldus can be found watching
over breweries throughout Belgium today. If he isn't REALLY the patron saint
of brewers, no one bothered to tell the Belgians, and they don't seem to
care.

Gambrinus is a legendary figure in many European brewing nations. One version
of his story depicts him as Czech. (Maybe you could tell us this version,
Jay) The Belgians have their own Gambrinus as well. He is considered the
original "King of Beer", this of course being prior to the wonderful products
of mass media and Anheuser Busch. The name "Gambrinus" is thought to derive
from Jan Primus. Jan I was duke of Antwerp, Brabant, and Louvain in the 13th
century. Among other things, he is credited with having introduced the toast
as social custom. In reference to Gambrinus, Jackson claims, "The King of Beer
was most probably a Belgian, though he can be spotted all over Europe."

Beer and brewing are integrally intertwined with the history, religion, 
social customs, etc. of many European nations. Therefore, it should come as 
no surprise that there are many tales of saints and kings of various lands 
performing beery miracles, introducing social customs, or simply drinking alot!
Moreover, this richness makes the history of brewing far more interesting, 
even if exact historical accuracy is blurred. 

A toast to Gambrinus and Saint Arnoldus,
CR


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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 12:32:56 PDT
From: ithaca!amber!phoebe at uunet.UU.NET (P. Couch)
Subject: Re: Raw Meat????


>1/2# raw meat
            ^^^^ -  What kind of Meat? Raw hamburger?
			 Is it a kind of yeast nutrient? :) :) :)

>Date: 24 Jul 1992 22:24:42 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Neal.Raisman at UC.Edu (Neal A Raisman)
>Subject: scrumpy
>
>  This is a recipe for a strong British cider called scrumpy.
>  It is really strong.  One glass and the world begins to glow.
>  A second glass, makes it all go.
>
>  12# of mixed apples.  Be sure they are clean and with no
>        belmishes
>  1/2# raisins 
>  1/2# raw meat
>  1 gal. water at 70 degrees
>    tradition calls for bakers yeast but I recommend a
>     champagne yeast 
>
>  Chop all ingredients.  Then grind the apples and raisins. A
>  food processor is helpful.  Toss the ingredients into the
>  water and stir.  Add the yeast and seal the brew bucket with
>  an airlock.  Each day, stir the ingredients by swirling the
>  ingredients in the closed bucket.  After the first fermenta-
>  tion slows, about 8-10 days, move to a secondary fermenter.
>  If you like a dry cider, add a second dose of yeast to the
>  secondary fermenter.  Seal with an airlock.  Let sit until it
>  the fermentation slows to a very slow, almost imperceptable
>  bubble.  Move to a carboy to get out more of the particulates.
>   Let it sit for about a week and bottle.
>
>  The scrumpy will need to mature for about four months before
>  you will want to even try it since it will give off a strong
>D unpleasant smell and almost vinegary taste.  The longer it is
>  allowed to mature, the better, smoother and drier it will get.
>
>  It is wonderful served cold when mature.  I have let it sit
>  for a year and it is quqite fine.
>
>   No fancy sign off here.  Neal Raisman raismana at ucunix.san.uc.edu
>D
>  and unpleasant smell and have an almost vinegary staste
>

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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 15:37:26 CDT
From: michael at wupsych.wustl.edu (Michael Biondo)
Subject: re. isolating S. delbrueckii


Fellow homebrewer and HBD-er, Tim Fahrner (MILBRANDT_J at wums.wustl.edu)
recently isolated S. delbrueckii from Wyeast 3056 with great results.  
Basically, he plated out the 3056 and innoculated small starters,
each with an isolated colony from the plate.  The starters were
incubated and final identification was done by smell and taste.
All the delbrueckii starters all had that distinctive cloviness in the
taste and smell.  One of the delbrueckii starters was then streaked to
a new plate.

I received a slant from that plate and subsequently brewed a weizen
patterned loosely after Dave Miller's recipe.  I followed his mashing
schedule and also took his suggestion to use a yeast energizer.

Well, the effort turned out a final product that was exactly what I was
looking for - a lot of, almost mouth-puckering, cloviness.
OG: 1.044  FG: 1.012

I have subsequently streaked a second plate using the yeast from the
secondary of the above batch.  My plan is take an isolated colony from
that plate to brew the next batch.  I thought it might be interesting
to see if an isolated colony from a yeast of a prior batch would yield
any difference in flavor ie. more cloviness.

Opps, sorry for getting off on a tangent - just wanted really to pass
along another possible method of isolation and identification of
S. delbrueckii.

   Good Luck...
   Mike



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Date:    Mon, 27 Jul 92 16:20 CDT
From: ZLPAJGN%LUCCPUA.bitnet at UICVM.UIC.EDU
Subject: Follow-up on my comments re: Gorman

Dear brewers,

To all who responded both privately and in the HBD, I wish to thank
you for both the support for my position, and for some points well
taken about contributing to / participating in issues which are
essentially periferal to the jist of this forum in the first place.
(How's that for an opening sentence?!)

To start, judging from the responses I received, there was nearly
unanimous agreement that criticisms such as Gorman's do little to
promote and further our mutual interest in homebrewing.  But then
again, judging from those same responses, Jack's comments don't help
much either...  I have been reading this forum sinse the first part of
this year, and have been aware of the various controversies that seem
to follow Jack around.  (Indeed, when I had only just subscribed to
this SIG, I thought that Jack was running for some public office, or
something!)  I remember the Schmidling-Frane flame sessions over
dry vs. liquid yeast - an all together healthy debate, until it
occasionally stoopped into ad hominum attacks.  I also remember
that many on the forum grew tired of the bickering, and either cancelled
their subscriptions, or pleaded for it to be carried on via e-mail and
leave the net to discussion and constructive criticism.  So, I was not
unaware of "arf," nor unwittingly defending his ego.  I was, rather,
calling for such attacks like Gorman's - and like those Jack has made
in the past (and will undoubtedly make again) - to more tasteful, and
less tackless.

However, in posting my own criticism, I was engaging in the very thing
I was attacking, as some of the other responses pointed out.  With
respect to those brewers, may I say that that was a point well taken.
Perhaps the best way to aviod more flame sessions surrounding the
postings from those who don't know jack schmidling about brewing is to
either ignore their pomposity (?) or to take it off the net.

So, while I continue to feel that Gorman's tact was an insult to the
idea of constructive criticism - even in Jack's case - I must agree
that my own objections probably helped to fuel the "flames" rather
than quell them.  For this alone I express my regrets to those on the
net who would rather not deal with such drivol.

Cheers (isn't this what it's all about anyway!!?):

John

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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 14:40 PDT
From: BOB JONES <BJONES at NOVAX.llnl.gov>
Subject: Mead from Micah Millspaw


	This article has been posted before but there have recently 
been a lot of mead questions on the HBD and some of the info here
may be of use. What ever other mead type questions are left post
them and I take a shot at em.

PS I've made a lot of mead.
                                WASSAIL         Micah Millspaw 7/22/92


        The oldest of beverages, the newest of techniques. High tech
has come to mead making.
        Because of the commitment of time involved, many people are
quite hesitant about getting into mead making. Generally it takes less
equipment and the ingredients are cheaper than those needed for brewing.
Someone who is extract brewing is already covered (equipment wise) to
be a mead maker.
        To the veteran mead makers out there, you know the time and effort
(mostly time) spent on a mead can be exceptionally rewarding. On the
other hand something could go wrong and unnoticed for a year or more
and that can be very disappointing. The amount of time we put into
a mead can make the loss seem much worse than the loss of a batch of
beer. It is also possible to radically reduce the length of time it
takes to produce a consumable mead/ melomel/ methiglin.
        Let us consider some ways of reducing or eliminating the chance
of disaster striking your mead. These efforts should also shorten the
fermentation time.
        Meads are known to have long, slow fermentation times (1-4
months is common). This long term ferment tends to tie up a carboy that
might be used more productively (for beer maybe?). The reason that mead
takes a long time to ferment out is that honey is woefully lacking in
the nutrients that yeast needs to effectively metabolize the mead wort.
        The cure is to add yeast nutrients. Yeasts like ammonium salts,
these are those little white crystals available at most homebrew shops.
These will do the job of sustaining the yeast, but there are some
nasty side effects. If too much of the ammonia salt crystals are used,
their taste and aroma will remain in your mead(yuk). The only way to
get rid of the ammonia taste/smell is to age it out, this often takes
years. Fortunately there are better yeast nutrients. The best that I
have used so far is bacto nitrogen base yeast nutrient from DIFCO. This
nutrient is available from pharmaceutical and laboratory supply houses.
The difco has no flavour/ aroma side effects but is rather expensive,
the plus is, a small amount will do lot. Detailed information for amounts
to use should be provided when you purchase the nutrient. Recently a
yeast nutrient for meads became available from Great Fermentations of
Santa Rosa which they claim will ferment out a mead in three weeks at 70
degrees F. I have used this nutrient several times and have found that
if the temperature is maintained it is possible to ferment out in three
to four weeks. This nutrient is reasonably priced and is easy to get.
        Having addressed the need for yeast nutrients, it is a good
idea to have some yeast to go with them. Liquid culture wine and champ-
agne yeasts of high quality are easily obtainable. Many dried yeasts
are also of interest to the mead maker. One for the most important
features of a yeast to the mead maker is alcohol survivability. Meads
in general and especially high gravity meads have alcohol levels far
exceding that of most beers.
        Prise de mousse (S. bayanus) and Pasteur champagne(S. cerevisae)
are excellent for traditional and high original gravity meads. Epernay,
a wine yeast is very complimentary to melomels(fruit meads). Most wine
yeasts are entirely adequate for mead making. Try a few different ones
if your looking for something unique in flavour. It is possible to use
ale or lager yeasts (I've tried both) to ferment mead, but I've been less
satisfied with the results (flavour) when compared to meads made with
wine or champagne yeasts.
        Some mead makers like to use "killer yeasts",these are identi-
fied by the letter K preceding a name or number. The killer yeasts
work well in conjunction with other saccromyces yeasts. The "killers"
function is to eliminate competing wild yeasts. It is not normally
necessary to use this type of yeast unless you choose not to boil your
mead wort. (the not boiling is part of an ancient process and will
not be discussed here)
        It is important to prepare a yeast starter so as to have enough
yeast ferment your mead. As there is a great deal of information available
about making yeast starters, I'll not go over it much. The only suggest-
ion that I will give is to use confectioners sugar instead of dry malt
extract in your starter, this removes the chance of strange flavours in
traditional meads. I use 1/4 cup sugar to one quart water and 1/4 tsp of
yeast nutrient in my starters.
        The properly prepared yeast in conjunction with the essential
yeast nutrients should result in a vigorous 3-4 week ferment. It is
important to allow adequate headspace in the fermenter and the blow off
method is recommended.
        After your mead has reached the desired specific gravity, it
should be racked into a soda keg. Kegging the mead gives you control
over carbonation levels and oxygen exposure problems. It is also
possible to arrest the fermentation at a desired point by kegging and
sub-micron filtration. I have had good luck adding fruit concentrates
and essences to filtered meads. They are very stable in comparison with
bottle conditioned fruit meads.
        A clean soda keg should be blanketed with CO2 prior to racking
in order limit oxygen exposure. Fermented meads are very susceptible
to oxidation. Oxidation will result in some very unsatisfactory flavours
in the finished product.
        Decide if your mead is to be sparkling or still(flat). If the
mead is to be still, rack into the keg, put on the lid and seal it with
as low a pressure as possible (I recommend filtration). If the mead is
to be sparkling I strongly recommend force carbonation. I've found that
using " methode champenoise" with mead to be unpredictable and usually
unsatisfactory. Rack into the soda keg, seal it then pressure up to
30-40 psi and set it aside for a while. Mead seems to be slow to absorb
carbonation (compared to beer) and since mead should improve with reaso-
nable aging this will all work out nicely.
        What to do with a 5 gallon keg of mead? It is possible to put
it on draft in your home. The drawback is that the mead, when present in
large amounts could overwhelm you. The option is to counter-pressure
bottle from the keg. Counter-pressure fillers should allow you to purge
the bottle with CO2 prior to filling. Removing the normal atmosphere
from the bottle is absolutely necessary limit oxygen exposure. The mead
that you're putting into the bottle should be a finished and stable
product and you don't want the oxygen to ruin your efforts.
        Before bottling, sample the kegged mead to ascertain its cond-
itioning; age, carbonation level, etc...Cool the keg of mead down to
35-40 degrees F. so as to improve its ability to hold CO2 in solution.
Clean your bottles and fill them up. Enjoy.

                                        Micah Millspaw
                                          11/27/91


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #936, 07/28/92