FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Counter Flow Chillers (Joe Rolfe)
  B-Brite (STROUD)
  Brewpubs in Denver? (Gary Franko)
  Re: Chilling Temperatures (Bill Szymczak)
  barley wines--yeast & technique ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  A question, a warning, and ... (Sam Israelit)
  mill experiences (mcnally)
  When do I harvest? (FSAC-FCD) <dward at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
  using freshly picked hops (CHUCKM)
  Styrofoam as a mash tun (Jay Hersh)
  Mouthfeel (Jay Hersh)
  Dry hoping & All grain brewing from Micah Millspaw (BOB JONES)
  N-A, The Secret (Jack Schmidling)
  One gallon mead? (gkushmer)
  Diacetyl Rest question (Larry Barello)
  Querying the experts (Conn Copas)
  New Brew Supply Store (aew)
  How to Make Hard Cider? (REINHARD)
  Automash(tm)? (fbruno)
  RE: sparging questions (James Dipalma)
  Use of Vegetable Steamer & Grain Bag (yoost)
  Hop plugs vs. pellets (Bruce Buck)
  Flaked & Pearled Barley (Justin Seiferth)
  breaking up hop plugs (emeeks)
  Tun in Again (Norm Pyle)
  chilling to 50 degrees (mcnally)
  Re: Chiller (korz)
  Splitting Hops plugs for Dry Hopping (whg)
  Mash-Out=Sparging?  NOT. (stevie)
  Malto-dextrine (Phillip Seitz)
  Thanks! ("Olzenak,Craig")
  lauter/mash tuns (Ruth Mazo Karras)
  Re: Wort Chilling, Some chilling thoughts... (Larry Barello)
  Wyeast etymology (John Oswalt)
  Wyeast Belgian Ale yeast (jay marshall 283-5903)
  Re: Sparging (korz)
  grain bag in a 5 gallon cooler (Jay Hersh)
  keg boiling pots (Houck)


Send articles for __publication__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Archives are available via anonymous ftp from sierra.stanford.edu.
    (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via mail from
    listserv at sierra.stanford.edu. Send HELP as the body of a
    message to that address to receive listserver instructions.)
**Please do not send me requests for back issues!**
*********(They will be silenty discarded!)*********
**For Cat's Meow information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu**


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 92 9:42:41 EDT
From: Joe Rolfe <jdr at wang.com>
Subject: Counter Flow Chillers

hi all,

i have a problem with the volume of water required for utilizing
counter flow - i know of no other way around using one, so i need to
try and minimize the amount of water used.

what i have is 2 25 foot (1/2" copper inside 1" plastic hose)

	to cool the batch to 80 F - i have been typically using 1.5 times
	the wort in water.  the water is at approx 65-70 F. the hot water
	coming out is at approx 120 - 130 F.  Wort in at 200 - 210 F. i would
	like to use less water and get the temp of the wort lower.  i have
	seen other posts regarding water usage in the 3 times range. 

what i would like to know 

	1) would adding another 50 feet of chiller help get temp down to
		65-70 F range (water in) and also would it cut down the water
		usage?? i am assuming with the current set up the performance
		is a little low - hot water out is prehaps to cold??

	2) does anyone have the "rocket science" part - formula for modeling
		the flows(wort and water), lengths, temps.... etc?? 



thanx in advance

joe rolfe

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1992 10:52 EST
From: STROUD <STROUD%GAIA at leia.polaroid.com>
Subject: B-Brite

Waaaaaay back in HBD #917, Al Taylor said:

>B-Brite is mostly Sodium Carbonate.

Maybe it is, but that can't be the ingredient that makes it a sanitizer.  I've 
always assumed that the active ingredient in B-Brite is Sodium Perborate, a 
form of active oxygen and the key ingredient in non-chlorine bleach;  in fact, 
I'm under the assumption that B-Brite *IS* just non-chlorine bleach, sans the 
perfume.

Does anyone know differently?

Steve Stroud


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon,  3 Aug 1992 10:56:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gary Franko <gf0r+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Brewpubs in Denver?


    I am looking for brewpubs in the Denver, Boulder, Golden area. Any

suggestions or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

   Thank you

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 3 Aug 92 11:44:05 EDT
From: bszymcz%ulysses at relay.nswc.navy.mil (Bill Szymczak)
Subject: Re: Chilling Temperatures

In HBD939 Mike McNally writes


> I need to understand how the "immersion chiller as makeshift 
> flow-through chiller" actually works.  I like to get my beer 
> down to about 50 degrees (F) as quickly as possible.  To do 
> this, my calculations show that do drop my just-after-boiling 
> five gallons of wort down to fifty degrees, I need to "mix" it
> with at least 42 gallons of ice water:
>
>     Vc = (VbTb - VbTt) / (Tt - Tc)
>
> where Vc = chilled water volume, Vb is wort volume, Tc is chilled
> water temperature, Tb is wort temperature, and Tt is target 
> temperature.  Now, I don't have a 42 gallon bucket, .....

On this issue I have good and bad news to Mike, but good news to
everyone else using the "immersion in ice" type chiller where
the wort is siphoned into a copper coil which is 
immersed in ice water.  The bad news is that when phase changes
occur (solid ice to liquid water) the formula that Mike used,
which he derived from the averaging formula

    Vc*Tc + Vb*Tb = (Vc + Vb)*Tt                    (1)

is no longer valid.  

The good news is: the actual target temperature will be much lower
than prediced by (1) due to the latent heat required to change (melt)
32 degree F ice into 32 degree water.  For example, if you "mix"
equal amounts (by weight) of boiling water at 212 degrees (F) and
ice at 10 degrees (F) (a typical temperature inside a freezer) you
get water in equilibrium at about 52 degrees (F).  The formula
for computing the equilibrium temperature (assuming the equilibrium
state is liquid and the wort has the same thermal properties as water)
is 

   Tt = (Tb*Vb + (0.453*Ti - 73)*Vi) / (Vi + Vb)     (2)


where Vi and Ti are the volume and tempurature of the ice.
In this formula, 0.453 is the ratio of heat capacities  of ice to water,
and 73 is the value for the latent heat required to change ice
to water divided by the heat capacity of water. 
Of course, for equation (2) to have some validity, the ice will have
to be constantly stirred so that the equilibrium temperature
approximates what is actually occuring in the wort chiller.
Also, if you initially add water to the ice in your bucket, you
can approximate the effects by first modifying the volume and 
temperature of the "boil" (as if the water was added to it) using (1),
and then apply (2) with the modified values for Vb and Tb.
The bottom line is that you need only about 6  gallons of ice
to reduce the temperature of boiling wort to 50 degrees F. 

Bill Szymczak

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 3 Aug 92 12:35:09 EDT
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu>
Subject: barley wines--yeast & technique

Tony Babinec writes:
 > I see no reason to go to a second yeast, such as a champagne yeast.  The
 > best commercial barley wines are made with house yeasts, and we should
 > be able to match that.  However, getting a properly attenuated beer from
 > the yeast is not necessarily straightforward.

Jackson (New World Guide to Beer) claims that Eldridge Pope's Thomas
Hardy Ale is fermented with three pitchings of (the same) yeast.  Two
for fermentation, and one for bottle conditioning.  This is a high
gravity, high alcohol old ale (1124OG, 9.9% by weight alcohol).


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 3 Aug 92 09:47:32 PDT
From: sami at scic.intel.com (Sam Israelit)
Subject: A question, a warning, and ...

My new arpartment only has an electric stove so I find myself in the market
for a "cajun cooker". Can anyone with experience with these devices make a
recommendation on performance, cost, availability, etc...?

I was at a garden party last weekend and got into a discussion on the
golden hops (not a brewing variety) that the owner was raising. He made a
comment that I thought might be of interest to all of the hop growers on
the net. It appears that when some varieties of hop vines are cut open, the
"sap" (for lack of a better word) can react with the sun. If the grower
brushes the hop vine with bare skin (ie, an arm) and doesn't wash off the
"sap", it can react with the sun light to cause a rather severe burn on the
skin (Maybe "photocaustic" is the right word, but I don't know for sure).
These burns can be very painful and can cause scars. It's not the kind of
thing that is going to happen immediately, though I have been told that
with some plants it can occur very quickly. It's probably early still to
start thinking about cutting down your hop vines, but I thought it would be
worth passing on the info. This isn't something to be paranoid about, just
be careful if you are like me and you don't wear a shirt when you spend the
day "cutting back" the garden during the final sunny days of the season. To
be on the safe side, though, I'll wear a long-sleeved shirt and gloves when
cutting down my hops in the future . . .

And, finally, in a recent HBD issue, Ken Johnson wrote:

>  If your beer quality goes down when switching to full mash beers, then
>  you are lame.

Whoa Ken! Reach down deep and grab the reins! You seem to be a little bit
harsh in that statement and my first reaction was to tell you to go to
hell.Hopefully this comment just came across wrong because the written word
can't easily convey tone and inflection. Before you send mail, re-read it
to make sure that what you wrote actually says what you mean. 

Sam Israelit
Engineer, Businessman, . . . Brewer
Portland, OR


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 03 Aug 92 09:55:23 -0700
From: mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Subject: mill experiences


I brewed with grain crushed in my own mill yesterday for the first
time, and I'm pleased.  It may seem amazing, but I've brewed lots
of all-grain batches (maybe 30) and I've never had a mill.  On my
last two brews I crushed with a marble rolling pin (laugh away).

I have a Marga Molino, fitted with an extended hopper and an output
chute fashioned from some plastic scraps picked up at a local plastic
store.  It's fitted to a board with a hole cut through to match the
geometry of the chute.  The collection bucket is positioned on a shelf
below the hole.  I drove the mill with a 3/8" boring bit fitted to a
variable-speed power drill.

The crush took a little longer than I thought, but overall I did a
little over 10 pounds of grain in just under an hour.  For a
significant portion of the time I had the mill adjusted a little too
tight, so next time I'll probably finish a lot faster.

Even when the mill was too tight, the crush seemed very complete, much
more so than that achieved by my former source of crushed grain, the
Fermentation Settlement in San Jose (which is not to bad-mouth them).
The husks came through very nicely, most completely intact.  I did get
a lot of flower, but since the husks were there I didn't worry.  When I
loosened up the mill I noticed that I still got flour, but less.

At mash-in, several big starch clumps formed.  These I broke up with a
wire whisk with little effort.  The mash went fine and I had complete
conversion in a little over an hour.  Sparge was not unusual, perhaps a
little on the quick side.  When it ran clear, it ran *real* clear.

The best part was that my extract efficiency was *way* better than
before.  The OG of the five gallons was about 64, giving a utilization
of about 31.  Previously, I had never gotten better than maybe 27.

Thus, if you don't have a mill, get one.  The Marga is OK, and I'm sure
the MALTMILL is too.

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

Return to table of contents


Date:     Mon, 3 Aug 92 13:50:24 EDT
From: "Darren L. Ward" (FSAC-FCD) <dward at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  When do I harvest?

	I've seen information posted on drying and packaging hops, but how does
one know when to harvest???  How big should the cones be, mine vary from 1/2"
to about 1 1/2" in size, and are still quite green.

Return to table of contents


Date: 03 Aug 92 14:10:17 EDT
From: CHUCKM at CSG3.Prime.COM
Subject: using freshly picked hops

Greetings fellow homebrewers...

Thanks to those who provided advice on drying hops.   I have
a further question..

     Is there any reason why I souldn't use freshly picked hops for brewing.
(eg. direct from the vine to the pot). Must they always be dried before
using.

Aside.... As a data point.   I live in Massachusetts and just harvested
my Centennial hops this weekend. I planted them in April (1 vine) and picked
about 2/3 of them ( 1/2 pound). My Mt Hoods are just starting to cone now.

Thanks in advance......

chuckm at csg3.prime.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 03 Aug 92 18:00:16 EDT
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: Styrofoam as a mash tun



 jlf at palm.cray.com (John Freeman) sez

(Hi John!!)

> I do a single temp infusion mash in a styrofoam cooler,

	Ouch!!, this really doesn't impart any nasty flavors into the beer??
	I know at thispoint it isn't alcoholic, but still I wonder how safe 
	this is. I myself am using the 5 gallon plastic Gott water cooler,
	which is at least food grade.

>As blasphemous as
it sounds, there is more to life than making beer, and if it took me
all day like some, I wouldn't do it.

So, if someone is happy making extract beers, I don't see any problem
with that.  I'm not going to insist they make the investment in time
and equipment to do full mash beers.


	Kudos here, some of us just don't have the time to spend all 
	day mashing....

	

	JaH

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 03 Aug 92 18:08:14 EDT
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: Mouthfeel



>I read the article from the Summer isue of Zymurgy by Michael Tierney
on carbonation in beer titled "From Carboy to Beer Glass: A Note on 
Froth." A very interesting article that I am sure to read many more
times. One fact he mentions in his article is that mouth feel is 
the word that professionals give to a properly carbontated beer that
tingles on the tongue a little. My interpretation of mouth feel up 
to this point was more a measure of body.  My question is: does
mouth feel refer only to carbonation and its sensation?



	Hmm, for myself and other judges I know of these are both
	correct, i.e. mouthfeel is a measure of smootheness and fullness
	of the beer, and how well blended the carbonation is. In other
	words how the beer feels in your mouth. This is a complex
	sensation, and comprises an interplay of the factors of body 
	and carbonation (poor carbonation feels prickly or sharp
	and "bites" at your tongue).


	JaH

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1992 15:20 PDT
From: BOB JONES <BJONES at NOVAX.llnl.gov>
Subject: Dry hoping & All grain brewing from Micah Millspaw


	Dry hopping, a different approach. I have recently begun
dry hopping my beer after fermentation and after kegging. I take my
beer filter canister and a cheap ($2) 5 micron filter put the filter
in the canister and shove 1\2oz of aroma hops into the canister around
the filter. I then use CO2 to push the beer thru the hop filled filter
into another keg. IMHO this gives a very noticable hop bouquet and 
adds no bitterness, it also eliminates some of the messy problems
that occur with normal dry hopping methods.
======================================================================
	All grain brewing. I do it because its way way cheaper
than using extracts. Malt extracts at retail prices are about $3
per pound in my area, I pay about 21 cents per pound for barley 
malt. As for the time it takes, my brewing equipment is semi-auto 
mated, but even with that I see about 4-4 1\2 hours for a 16 gallon
batch. Most of that time does not require my presence, I pop into
the brew house for the mash in, go eat breakfast, come back for the 
mash out and sparge ( the sweet wort is being pumped into the kettle
as comes out of the mash tun) as soon as a boil is achieved I leave
again come back in an hour make hop additions, for the rest of the 
boil the only times that I go near the kettle is to add hops. I do 
clean up the mash tun and prep the primary fermenter during the 
boil time but doesn't take much. I usualy get a lot of yard work 
done while brewing.

                                       Micah Millspaw  8/3/92    

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 3 Aug 92 12:48 CDT
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: N-A, The Secret

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 Cynic that I am, while pondering the discussions about low alcohol yeast and 
 exotic processes used by the majors to produce low alcohol beer, I took the 
 insipid taste and total lack of beer character this stuff has as a major clue 
 to the secret.
 
 Having two gallons left after kegging a batch of stout, I added one "exotic" 
 step to my N-A process.
 
 As a review, I heat the ready-for-bottling beer to 170F (uncovered) and hold 
 it there for 30 minutes.  I then let it cool (uncovered) to 150F at which 
 point it is below the Pasteurization temp and must be covered and cooled for 
 bottling or kegging.  I then tap this into a keg and cool it in a bucket of 
 running water.  When room temp I force carbonate it.
 
 According to Jeane Hunter's gas chromatograph tests on samples I sent to her, 
 this results in about 1.3% alcohol.
 
 The "exotic" step I added to this batch was to add a gallon of WATER prior to 
 kegging.   
 
 We had it last night with pizza (on beer bread crust, of course) and Marilyn 
 and I agreed that it was the best N-A we have made to date.  It has a nice 
 creamy head, tastes like stout with just a hint of coffee from the roasted 
 barley.  The N-A usually takes about a week to lose the cooked taste for the 
 heating but this stuff tasted great after 24 hours.
 
 I have little doubt that another gallon or two of water would still leave us 
 with more flavor and beer character than the stuff from the majors and reduce 
 the alcohol well below the .5% level required of N-A.
 
 I also have little doubt that this is the expedient the majors use to achieve 
 the low alcohol level.
 
 The addition of water not only reduces the alcohol level but obviously also 
 the calories.  It reduces the body and total character but the basic "taste" 
 is not lost and off flavors are of course, reduced as well.
 
 js
 
 
 
 js
 
 
 
 

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 3 Aug 92 21:11:59 EDT
From: gkushmer at Jade.Tufts.EDU
Subject: One gallon mead?


I have been thinking of making a one-gallon mead from a Leatherwood honey
(made in Tasmania) that my housemate brought home.  I have a package of
Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast that consistently yields me good results
in larger batches - but I'm questioning the wisdom of dumping that entire
package into one gallon of water/honey.

Meanwhile, I have in a secondary in my basement five or so gallons of 
mead that has been inactive for at least three weeks.  It's looking 
very clear, yet I was thinking that maybe I could take some of the mead
from that carboy and dump it in the one galloner.  Would the inactive yeast
from that mead work in this new environment?  Or is this a bad idea?

Maybe I should re-hydrate the Red Star package and dump some of it in the
one-gallon carboy? I could get a mason jar, sterilize it, and put the 
majority of the yeast in that in my fridge.

While I'm at it - does anyone have a yeast strain they like that they
could recommend?  And I don't mean something that one of you chemistry
goons made up on your research grant :-)  I'm looking for some commercial
alternatives that I can get.

Cheers,

- --gk

 -------------------     
|  5,397 miles      | 
|     - to -        |     THE FIRST AMENDMENT states that members of re-
|   WALL DRUG       |     ligious groups, no matter how small or unpopular,
|                   |     shall have the right to hassle you in airports
|WALL, SOUTH DAKOTA |     
|     U.S.A.        |                            -Dave Barry-
 -------------------
**Sign In Amsterdam**


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 3 Aug 92 19:38:11 PDT
From: polstra!larryba at uunet.UU.NET (Larry Barello)
Subject: Diacetyl Rest question

Does anyone have any parametric experience with diacetyl rests and
has a good handle on what limits should be respected?
I seem to recall from the Practical Brewer, that temperatures in the 
range of 60-65f reduce diacetyl quickly to very low values.

I have a lager that has mostly fermented out at 48f.  I have moved it
to my Ale fermentation box (e.g. the laundry room) and it is around 62f.
Since it is mostly fermented out I am not too worried about excess
ester production while the yeast completes the fermentation.  After it
completes fermentation I plan on kegging, carbonating and lagering at
40f for a month or until it clears.

Oh, I am using a Pilsner Urquell D yeast.  I don't know anything more 
about it than that.  

Thanks!

Larry Barello			uunet!polstra!larryba

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 13:05:41 BST
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Querying the experts

Hate to do it folks, but its amateur chemistry time again. First, the reasons
behind head retention. Miller states that proteins reduce surface tension of
CO2 bubbles, thus facilitating retention. This piece of reasoning was also
repeated in a recent Zymurgy article. This doesn't sound altogether intuitive
to me. Also, I distinctly remember a physics class in which we added detergent
to water in order to reduce its surface tension; yet detergent is the nemesis
of head retention. So what gives?

Secondly, Rajotte (in "Belgian Ale") and formation of higher alcohols. He makes
a rather vague claim that yeast activity increases said alcohols, therefore
oxygenation of the wort prior to pitching reduces same. From my reading of Fix,
I understood the opposite to be true. I presume there are complex interactions
between a variety of factors such as yeast strain and health, free nitrogen,
temperature, specific gravity, fructose content, fat content and dissolved 
oxygen, so is it possible to state a general rule? I seem to remember one of
the Beer Hunter episodes in which a brewery used a technique to promote the
formation of fusel oil late in the fermentation, whereas Rajotte seems to be
more concerned with what happens during respiration.

- -- 
Loughborough University of Technology          tel : (0509)263171  ext 4164
Computer-Human Interaction Research Centre     fax : (0509)610815      
Leicestershire  LE11 3TU           e-mail - (Janet):C.V.Copas at uk.ac.lut   
G Britain                 (Internet):C.V.Copas%lut.ac.uk at nsfnet-relay.ac.uk


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 04 Aug 92 08:35:44 -0400
From: aew at spitfire.unh.edu
Subject: New Brew Supply Store


For Brewers in the New Hmpshire Seacost area there is a new homebrew
supply store that I found in Portsmouth NH. It's called the Olde Port
Brew Haus and is located on Islington street across from Plaza 800.
They have a medium-small selection of mostly extract brewing supplies
with some bulk grain. They're just starting up and seem to be open so
suggestions. The first time I went in I mentioned that they should have
something and the next time I went in they had stocked it. 

The bes thing about this p[lace is their prices seem about 10% BELOW
most other stores in the area. I don't know if they do mail order but
their phone number is (603) 430-8904. Give them a call and find out.

No I donn't own stock or anything like that - just like their prices.

===============================================================================
Allan Wright Jr.            | Pole-Vaulters Get a Natural High!  | GO Celts!
University of New Hampshire +--------------------------------------------------
Research Computing Center   | You keep using that word. I do not think it means
Internet: AEW at UNH.EDU       | what you think it means. -The Princess Bride
===============================================================================

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1992 08:43 EST
From: REINHARD at stsci.edu
Subject: How to Make Hard Cider?


I have an apple tree outside my apartment and I was wondering 
how to make a hard cider.  A friend has one of those juicer
machines and I was thinking that would be a good way to get the 
juice from the apples but where do you go from there.  

If anyone has some recipes or suggestions please help and THANKS.

				Kent R.

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 05:47:59 -0700
From: fbruno at ncavax.decnet.lockheed.com
Subject: Automash(tm)?

What exactly is Automash and how much does one go for?
			-Frank B.
			fbruno at ncavax.decnet.lockheed.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 10:21:32 EDT
From: dipalma at banshee.sw.stratus.com (James Dipalma)
Subject: RE: sparging questions



	Hi All,

	In HBD# 940, Tom Feller asks:

>What is the difference between mash-out and sparging. I understood
>that if you mash out at 170 deg.F you raised the temp of the mash
>to 170 deg.F and then keep it at this temp for some time.

	That's a pretty accurate description of mash out.  It's done to
stop enzyme activity and to help avoid a set mash.

>How could it take 2 hr to run water sparge water through your
>grain bed unless the sparge was stuck(set mash?).

	Two hours seems a little lengthy to me as well, but it is
certainly possible.  My first all grain batch, I set the tap on
the lauter tun for the merest trickle, i.e., if I just nudged it
the runoff would stop entirely.  Two hours of sparging later, the
runoff still measured around 1.053.  Anxious to get on with it, I
opened the tap, and ran the remainder of the sparge water through
quickly.
	I've done a half dozen batches since then, each time increasing
the runoff rate and carefully recording the SG and final volume.
At the moment, I'm averaging 5 gallons sparge water through 9-10
pounds of grain in just under one hour, and still getting 30-32
points/pound/gallon.  The plan is to keep increasing the runoff rate
until I see a significant dropoff in extraction, in an attempt to
achieve a good time/quality tradeoff.
	I mention this because of the recent thread regarding sparge
times.  I think it's interesting that the times reported by other
net.brewers vary so much.  Anyone else out there drawn this sort
of correlation between sparge time and extraction?

>My plan is:

>Fill my cooler with grain add hot water for a final temp of 155 deg.F

	This is single step infusion mashing, works well with highly
modified malts.

>Let this sit until conversion about 1-2 hrs. I'll use the iodone test

	Using iodine is a good practice, you want to be sure conversion
is complete.  I suspect it won't take 2 hours for conversion though,
especially with highly modified malt.  I'd start iodine testing at
45 minutes to 1 hour.

>Recirculate until the run-off is not cloudly.

>Run 170-175 deg.F water(sparging?) throught the grain bed keep the
water level about 1/2-1 in about the grain bed untill the run-off is
not longer sweet or I reach my 7 gal. volume.

	I use both the hydrometer and the taste test to determine when to
quit sparging, and have found that the taste of tannin first becomes 
noticeable around 1.020.  At about 1.015 - 1.010, there is no longer
any detectable sweetness, this is when I stop.  Surprisingly, these
three events (no sweetness in runoff, 1.010 on the hydrometer, and
full pre-boil volume achieved) all seem to occur at just about the
same time.

>Did I discribe this right?

	You did, and you're on the right track, your plan looks good to
me, should work just fine.

                              Happy Brewing,
                                Jim DiPalma



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 09:52:44 -0500
From: yoost at judy.indstate.edu
Subject: Use of Vegetable Steamer & Grain Bag


RE: Jack S.

Jack says why use the Steamer if you have a grain bag ?

I am not an all-grain masher yet but.....

It seems to make perfect sense to me to create a 'uniform pocket' under the

grain bed without having to fasten the bag.

And no Jack we don't need an EASY-MASHER.


Can anyone give me a source for the grain bags ??

 -John Yoost

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 10:06:17 EDT
From: beb at pt.com (Bruce Buck)
Subject: Hop plugs vs. pellets

I've been brewing for several years and have always used hop pellets.
Now there seems to be a lot of discussion about hop plugs.  What exactly
is the difference between the two?  What are the advantages and disadvantages?

Thanks.


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 8:37:22 MDT
From: seiferth at unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Justin Seiferth)
Subject: Flaked & Pearled Barley

I'm interested in using one of these speciality grains to increase the head
retention of ales and improve the head retention and colour of stouts. How
much of these do you use and are there special tricks to their use?

Thanks...

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 10:50:14 EDT
From: emeeks at unity.ncsu.edu
Subject: breaking up hop plugs

Hi everyone,

I just started using plugged hops on my last few batches, and in my
enthusiasm I just have to add my $.02.

I break up the plugs quite easily with a pair of sharp kitchen shears.
Rather than slicing it into pie-like wedges, I take advantage of the 
"cleavage planes" within the compressed plug. I have found you can start
a notch in the side of the plug, then peel it apart into two thinner
plugs (of course, the same can be accomplished by inserting a thin, sharp
knife into the side and twisting a little). Once it is in thinner
sections, you can easily fold (tear if you prefer) the layers and stuff
them in the carboy. Other than fresh hops, nothing beats the smell of
those inner plug layers.

I just get the sections small enough to fit in (with a little force) the
carboy. After just a few days in the secondary, the hop plug separates the
rest of the
way by itself.

Gee, and I couldn't understand why all the "dull" postings on breaking the
inner seal of a Wyeast package!  Just goes to show you: Given the proper
context, any tidbit of info can be significant.

- --
Ed Meeks

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 09:03:53 MDT
From: pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle)
Subject: Tun in Again

I can see the advantage of a lauter tun separate from my Bruheat mash tun /
boiler (starting the boil in parallel with the sparge).  My question is this:
If I use a grain bag in my Bruheat will it support the entire weight of, say,
10lbs of wet grain (how much would this weigh?)?  I'd like to pick up the
entire mass of wet grain and place it into the lauter tun in one easy step.
What I don't want to do is rip open my grain bag and drop (pour?) the goods
onto my kitchen floor (likely resulting in happy dogs and an unhappy wife).
I suppose I'm just being lazy, but then "laziness is the father of invention".

Norm

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 04 Aug 92 08:34:54 -0700
From: mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Subject: chilling to 50 degrees


I've gotten several pieces of mail about chilling to 50 degrees.  Most
think I'm nuts.

I chill to a low temperature because I want a good break and I want to
let the break settle for several hours (overnight).  The low temperature
improves the cold break *and* reduces the probability of contamination.
I don't have any means of refrigeration other thatn the chiller which
will drop the temperature so effectively.

I like to ferment at 60-65 degrees anyway.  I've had mixed results with
the beers I've fermented warmer than that.

_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Mike McNally                                           mcnally at wsl.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation
Western Software Lab

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 10:41 CDT
From: korz at ihpubj.att.com
Subject: Re: Chiller

Thomas writes:
>Why does Mike McNally want go to 50 deg.F this seem to be overkill to me
>unless he is making lagers. I cool to about 70-75 deg.F and then ferment
>in by asement which in the summer stays at 70-75 even on the hottest days.
>With my last brew, running hot wort through the chiller in bucket of ice
>water, I used three bags of ice. The resulting wort was at 70 deg.F. I
>have had some replies on counter-flow chillers and for the same final temp
>we are looking at about 40 gal. of tap water.

In his talk on wort chillers at the Conference, Jeff Frane said the most
enlightening (to me) fact of the whole conference: that cold break begins
at 65F.  Wow!  Since then, I've been chilling down to 60F with my immersion
chiller, waiting a half hour or an hour for the cold break to form and then
running very warm water through the chiller to bring the wort back to
pitching temperature.  Note that this is also possible with a counterflow
chiller and the coil-in-bucket chiller, but you must siphon twice.  I need
to use only very warm water because although my chiller outlet hose is
PE and can withstand a lot of heat, the inlet hose is only PVC and melted
once when I ran 140F water through it (it buldged out and then burst like
a bad radiator hose).
Al.

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 10:01:24 CDT
From: whg at tellabs.com
Subject: Splitting Hops plugs for Dry Hopping


In HBD 940, Chuck sez:

>I repeat, tho, use a sturdy knife since it can take a
considerable amount of leverage to work the knife through the plug.

I use a miracle Ginsue knife and cut through with no trouble :-).
(Only half in jest)

Walter Gude    ||   whg at tellabs.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 11:19:53 CDT
From: stevie at spss.com
Subject: Mash-Out=Sparging?  NOT.

thomasf at deschutes.ico.tek.com (Thomas D. Feller) asks:

>What is the difference between mash-out and sparging. I understood that if you
>mash out at 170 deg.F you raised the temp of the mash to 170 deg.F and then
>keep it at this temp for some time. With sparging you let the mash water drain
>out as you add sparge water, trying to keep the water level above the grian
>bed. How could it take 2 hr to run water sparge water through your grain bed
>unless the sparge was stuck(set mash?).

Simply put, mash-out is the final act of mashing.  By boosting the heat of
your mash to 170-175F and holding for about five minutes, you effectively end 
starch conversion.  After mash-out you can begin the recirculation process
and then move on to sparging.  Some eschew the mash-out, just as others prefer
not to use a protein rest.  If you're happy with your results, that's cool, but
I recommend both steps.  But the fact of the matter is, there should be no
confusing mash-out and sparging -- they are definitely NOT the same thing.

- ------

Steve Hamburg   Internet:  stevie at spss.com
SPSS Inc.       Phone:     312/329-3445
Chicago, IL     Fax:       312/329-3657

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 18:06 GMT
From: Phillip Seitz <0004531571 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Malto-dextrine

I am certainly not the final authority on brewing, and most of my 
knowledge is still based on reading rather than experience.  This 
disclaimer aside:

I did an experiment at home to see what the results of using malto-
dextrine and lactose would be in terms of flavor, mouthfeel, and
added gravity.  Two one-gallon batches of water were prepared, one
with a cup of MD, the other with a cup of lactose.  Both were boiled
and cooled.

Both added substantially to mouthfeel.  The malto-dextrine added 
nothing at all in terms of flavor, while the lactose added a very
slightly sweet taste--really rather mild, but noticeable.  Each
raised the gravity of one gallon of water from 1.000 to 1.014.  If
I'm not mistaken, this rise in gravity consists entirely of unfermentabe
sugars, and would therefore remain after fermentation is complete.

As for use of these, I'm still experimenting.  My philosophy at the 
moment is that both serve as extract-brew equivilents of dextrine
malt.  Armed with the gravity results above, I therefore use the
malto-dextrine to supply the same number of gravity points as
the desired amount of dextrine malt (1/2 pound of dextrine malt
is pretty common, with a whole pound for fuller, more substantial
beers).  I don't have my notes here, but this comes out to about
1/2 or 1 cup of the above.  I've seen recipes here on HBD that
use as much as 14 ounces of lactose.  

If I'm doing something wrong here I'll be glad to be corrected--
I hate wasting beer!


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 13:31:12 cdt
From: "Olzenak,Craig" <OLZENAK at AC.GRIN.EDU>
Subject: Thanks!

Greetings!

I'll be "unsubscribing" in the next week or so as I'm off for a two-year 
stint in Seville, Spain.  Just a quick note to say thanks to everyone for all 
the info. shared over this digest.  One of the best around for sure.  Anybody 
in Spain listening?  And, does anyone have any suggestions for equipment and 
supplies while I'm in Europe.  Any good Spanish beer to make sure I locate?

Off to the land of fino, manzanilla, and amantillado!

Buena suerte (good luck) to all!

Hasta luego,

Craig Olzenak
Heartland Homebrew Club
Grinnell, Iowa

Return to table of contents


Date: 04 Aug 92 14:36:25 EST
From: Ruth Mazo Karras <RKARRAS at PENNSAS.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: lauter/mash tuns

Crhis Shelton asks why use a strainer/steamer if a grain bag is also being
used. Although I have not experimented without both the steamer and bag, the
theory is this: the steamer raises the level of the grain above the drain
(which is set into the side of the tun) so that as the grain is sparged the
sparge water drips from the grain bed with a horizontil cross-section
equivalient to the daiameter of the tun and then collects beneath the steamer
and flows to the drain; the grain bag provides a finer filter for the bottom
of the grain and generally keeps the grain bed together to make clean up
easier. Not using the steamer may lead to plugging the drain and not using the
grain bag might lead to grain falling through the steamer and flowing through
the drain.

A collander filter in the bottom of the tun probably does much the same thing
as I have described, but I would guess clean up is tougher than with a grain
bag. With the bag, I just lift out the grain, set in in the sink to finish
dripping and carry it out to the garden. Since I am keeping the sparge water
to within a half inch of the top of the grain bed to keep it afloat, I have
not had a problem with sparge water running down the side of the tun and not
sparging the grain. At least I think I do not have that problem.


Another reader aske whether a grain bag really makes it easier to clean up,
since the bag has to be emptied and washed and what not. Putting the grain bag
in the tun takes about 15 seconds and removing the grain in the bag less time.
Rinsing out the tun after removal of the bag is quicker than it would be if
the bag were not used, I think, since there is less grain to rinse out and
cleaning the bag consists of dumping the grain in the garden, turning the bag
inside out and rinsing it for a minute or so in the sink. I have not been
sanitizing the bag as it is nylon and the wort does get boiled. I do not think
this is a big deal, and makes it easier to move the grain out--but the $7 for
the bag might not be worth it to everyone.

Chris Karras (RKarras at PennSAS.UPenn.edu)

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 11:39:25 PDT
From: polstra!larryba at uunet.UU.NET (Larry Barello)
Subject: Re: Wort Chilling, Some chilling thoughts...

In HBD #940, Albert writes:
>...
>to 5 gallons.  I seems to me that combining the two techniques would easily
>allow for cooling to a reasonable lager pitching temp.
>
So, what is an appropriate pitching temperature for Lagers?  I have 
seen brewers go through extreme lengths to make sure both the pitching
yeast and the wort are at fermentation temps (e.g. 48f) and I have
seen others (yours truely) just chuck the yeast (room temp or refer
temp) into the wort that comes out of the chiller (~65-75f).  Both
work fine.  In fact it would appear that my RDWHAHB method
works better since the yeast goes through the lag time faster due 
to the higher temperatures.  Of course, by the time the yeast gets
really going, my beers are at 48f (~6-24hr depending upon the quality
of the starter).

>From club tasting results I can't see any reason to worry about 
pitching lager yeasts at fermentation temperatures.  Does anyone
else have a different opinion (hah!) that they would share with the
net?

Cheers!
- -- 
- ---
Larry Barello			uunet!polstra!larryba

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 09:04:23 PDT
From: megatest!jao at Sun.COM (John Oswalt)
Subject: Wyeast etymology

Fellow homebrewers,

I have two questions tangentially related to homebrewing, about the word
"Wyeast."  First, how do you pronounce it?  Second, I know that Wyeast
was the name of an Indian warrior who turned into Mt. St. Helens (or
was it Mt. Adams?) in an Indian legend.  Is this where the yeast company
got it's name?

jao

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 11:32:15 CDT
From: jay marshall 283-5903 <marshall at sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Wyeast Belgian Ale yeast

A question from a fellow HBer who, because of a change in employment, no
longer has access to the HBD.  

Is the Wyeast Belgian Ale yeast closer to the yeast in a Duvel or that
in a Chimay Red?

thanks,

Jay


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 11:15 CDT
From: korz at ihpubj.att.com
Subject: Re: Sparging

Thomas writes:
>What is the difference between mash-out and sparging. I understood that if you
>mash out at 170 deg.F you raised the temp of the mash to 170 deg.F and then
>keep it at this temp for some time. With sparging you let the mash water drain
>out as you add sparge water, trying to keep the water level above the grian
>bed. How could it take 2 hr to run water sparge water through your grain bed
>unless the sparge was stuck(set mash?).

You're right about the difference between mash-out and sparging.  There are
two reasons for mash-out that I can think of: 1) stopping conversion (in
some cases, as when making a highly dextrinous wort, you may want to stop
conversion before all the dextrins are converted to fermentables) and
2) raising the temperature of the *grain* to 170F so the sugar flows more
easily away from the husk material (this way, you don't use sparge water to
warm the grain and the grist stays at 170F (or as close to it as your
insulation allows) for the entire duration of the sparge).

A 2-hour sparge does sound excessive, but too fast a sparge will also
lower your extraction efficiency.

Al.

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 04 Aug 92 17:04:25 EDT
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: grain bag in a 5 gallon cooler



Jack asks:

> I can't help but wonder how messing (literally) around with a grain bag fits 
> into your "less work" equation.
> 
> It seems to me that filling, installing, emptying and cleaning a grain bag is 
> far more work than hosing out a bucket or kettle with a built in strainer.  
> Of course you can reduce the work by using a new one each time but then the 
> cost goes up.
> 


I use a Gott cooler with a copper tube with slots in the bottom.
The grain bag gets set into it when dry, and tied down around the cooler top.
Then I add water and grain, alternating and stirring. The grain bag really
is no problem. In fact I think it makes cleaning a little easier.

When I'm done I can carry the cooler out to the compost pile, lift
the grain bag out, and invert it to dump out the grain. Then I simply rinse
it and let it dry.

I certainly wouldn't say it makes things any harder, and perhaps makes
cleanup a little easier. While I know plenty of folks who use a collander
or vegetable steamer false bottom and no grain bag approach with good results,
using the grain bag what and slotted pipe combination as I have also
works fine. 



> Am I missing something?

I won't touch that one :-)



	JaH

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 4 Aug 92 14:54:53 MDT
From: jeorg at chs.com (Houck)
Subject: keg boiling pots


i've purchased a keg from the local liquor store, and had the
top cut out only to be told that it is made out of aluminum.
i'm sure i read in the digest that all the major breweries used
only stainless these days. what's the deal? (this one was from
miller)

RE: using hop plugs for dry hopping - just soak the plug in
some boiled (and cooled) water first.
jeorg houck

Return to table of contents



End of HOMEBREW Digest #941, 08/05/92