FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Bottles for sale, cheap (rdg)
  Re: cleaning bruheat boiler (John Robinson)
  Malto dextrine, wort chiller filter (pmiller)
  10gal. H20 coolers (Chris McDermott)
  extract vs. all-grain (Russ Gelinas)
  Chiller and Sparging (Thomas D. Feller)
  Wort Chilling, Some chilling thoughts... ("CMD 2NDLT ALBERT W. TAYLOR ")
  All Grain Brewing. (John E. Greene)
  Re: Reaching 300 ppm Sulfate (Larry Barello)
  Re: Brewing time (was Re: Advanced Brewing (NON-EXTRACT) worth it?) (Larry Barello)
  chilling temperatures ("Deborah Poirier")
  Innovative lauter tuns (Chris Shenton)
  T shirt (Tim Williams)
  Re: Dry Hopping with Hop Plugs (P. Couch)
  Re: Ice in Wort Chillers (Michael L. Hall)
  All-grain mashing time (Pat Lasswell)
  Blue stuff, pick-up tubes, o-rings, etc. (Kinney Baughman)
  Answers to Bruheat questions (Kinney Baughman)
  HOMEBREW Digest #939 (Brendan Halpin)
  Grain Bags (Jack Schmidling)
  Belgian malt outlet (chris campanelli)
  Extract/Extract Kit Reviews (fjdobner)
  Re: cleaning bruheat element (Desmond Mottram)
  Splitting Hops plugs for Dry Hopping (KENYON)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 92 12:14:46 MDT
From: rdg at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Subject: Bottles for sale, cheap


All the beer bottles are gone, but I still have 3.79 bazillion *wine*
bottles (27.5 oz) to _give_away_ to Northern Colorado Mead/Wine Brewers.
Please email rdg at fc.hp.com if you are interested.

Rob

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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 10:10 BST
From: John Robinson <UDAA002 at OAK.CC.KCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: cleaning bruheat boiler

I've mashed and boiled in an Electrim bin (similar to the Bruheat
boiler I think) for several years, and kept the element clean by
switching it OFF during the mash, with a couple of heavy blankets
wrapped round the bin to conserve the heat.  I preheat the liquor to
about 71F before pitching the malt (8 lbs in 3.75 UK gallons) and the
temp. falls to around 66F.  After 3 hours it's usually around 61F. I
don't do any starch tests, but the wort comes out nicely balanced for
a dry-ish bitter - 5 gals at OG 1042. 

I tried using a grain bag, but gave it up in favour of a perforated
round splashguard of the kind used to cover frying pans.  I found one
which was just the right size to sit above the heating element and
tap, supported by 2 upturned glass dishes! 

One other hint - after running off the boiled wort, cover the element
with fresh hot water before it's had a chance to dry.  You can then
rub off most of the crud very easily.  Afterwards I run the heater for
a minute or two in the fresh water. 

Cheers,
John

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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 09:08:00 CDT
From: pmiller at mmm.com
Subject: Malto dextrine, wort chiller filter

Greetings all!

Does anybody know how much malto dextrin to use in a 5 gallon batch of beer?
I remember seeing this question raised in the HBD before, but I don't remember
if it's ever been answered.

I used some in a brown ale recipe to add a little sweetness.  The guy at the
homebrew store didn't have much experience with malto dextrine and told me to
add the whole 8 oz bag.  I chickened out and only added 4 oz, but the beer was
still a little sweeter than what I was looking for.  (Of course, I also added 6
oz of crystal malt to the same batch which probably added to the overall
sweetness...  Why only change one variable when you can mess around with 6 or 7?
;-)

So, what's the scoop?  Anybody else out there ever use this stuff?  Charlie says
that malto dextrine will also add body to the beer, but Miller basically
pooh-poohs that idea and claims that it will add sweetness only.  From the
limited conversation I've seen about malto dextrin here on the net, I get the
impression that most homebrewers look down their noses at the stuff and would
be less likely to add it to their brew than stink-bait (or even silicone
caulking ;-).

 ...............

The other day, Tom Feller asked:

> .....Instead of putting the copper coils in the hot wort and passing
>cold water inside the chiller I put the chiller in a bucket of ice water and 
>run the hot wort inside the chiller....[T]he siphon started OK but it never had
>a good flow. Yes I did pick up some hops but I stoped and cleaned everything
>out and still had bad flow. It took almost a hour to siphon about 4 gal.(I pour
>the rest in through a funnel and screen).

>Does anyone use this method? Does anyone have any ideas on how to make it flow
>better? Any better ideas on how the cool wort with the least amount of wasted
>water?

I've used the copper-coil-in-a-bucket-of-ice-water method to cool my wort a few
times.  I use a technique gleaned from this very digest to strain the hop
leaves:  jam the end of your racking wand into a copper choreboy scrubbing pad.
I take the added precaution of threading some wire through the choreboy and
twisting it around the racking wand so the darned thing doesn't fall off in the
middle of the transfer.  (Anybody ever had a choreboy slip off or am I just
making extra work for myself?)

This method has worked pretty well for me so far.  The choreboy has only gotten
completely blocked with hop leaves once and that was near the end of the
transfer anyway.  FWIW, I'm probably going to switch over to hop pellets
exclusively next fall; I found out that one of my favorite beers (Summit Extra
Pale Ale) is made with hop pellets and having used both, I find hop pellets
easier to use than flowers/plugs.  The upshot being that I won't need to use the
choreboy anymore.

BTW, if you use one of those plastic racking canes like I *used* to, you'll find
that the nearly boiling hot wort will soften the plastic and make it curl
slightly.  Then if you try to heat it back up to straighten it out, it will snap
in two.  (Gee Rocky, I guess I don't know my own strength...)

Phil Miller

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Date: 31 Jul 1992 11:37:41 -0500
From: Chris McDermott <mcdermott at draper.com>
Subject: 10gal. H20 coolers

 10gal. H20 coolers
For those of you who have tried to find these and failed, here's what worked
for me.  I called Rubbermaid and they gave me the number of their regional
distributer, who in turn gave me the number of their local sales rep., who told
me not a single retailer in the area bought the product.  So, what I did, was I
marched down to my neighborhood harware store (True Value) and had them special
order one for me.  Once they located the micro-fiche that had the Rubbermaid
cooler products on it, there was no muss or fuss.  I expect to have it in my
hot little hands in a week.  The only drawback is that, they insisted on
charging me FULL retail on it because they had to special order it.  Wholesale,
they go for about $32, but I ended up paying about $65 including tax.  So, if
you go this route, try to negotiate the price down a bit.


 -
Christopher K. McDermott       Internet:  mcdermott at draper.com
C.S. Draper Laboratory, Inc.   Voice:     (617) 258-2362
555 Technology Square          FAX:       (671) 258-1131
Cambridge, MA 02149 (USA)




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Date:    Fri, 31 Jul 1992 12:51:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: extract vs. all-grain

   To add in a data point, my last 20 or so batches have been all-grain.
As a test, my most recent was from from extract only, 3.3 lbs. BME wheat
(which is 1/2 wheat and 1/2 barley) and 3 lbs. dried malt, with 4th
generation liquid yeast.  It's not bad, but it doesn't nearly compare
to the fullness and richness of the all-grain batches.  It also has that
stereotypical homebrew tang.  I'm afraid there really may be no going
back.
   Fwiw, the batch will sit untouched for a week.  I'm on a prescription
drug that has an effect similar to Antabuse, the drug given to alcoholics
that makes them very ill if they have alcohol.  Hopefully that extra week of 
cold conditioning will make the batch more palatable.  Certainly, a week of
homebrew "cold turkey" should work in its favor...

Russ

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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 10:24:03 PDT
From: thomasf at deschutes.ico.tek.com (Thomas D. Feller)
Subject: Chiller and Sparging

>From the replies to my question about saving water it seem to me that some sort
of recirculation is the best idea. I also think my flow problems will be helped
by some more height from the brew pot to my primary. I have had a number of 
replies about holding 30 to 50 gal. of water and using it later but I just don't
have that kind of room or that many buckets.

A question here,

Why does Mike McNally want go to 50 deg.F this seem to be overkill to me unless
he is making lagers. I cool to about 70-75 deg.F and then ferment in by basement
which in the summer stays at 70-75 even on the hottest days. With my last brew,
running hot wort through the chiller in bucket of ice water, I used three bags 
of ice. The resulting wort was at 70 deg.F. I have had some replies on counter-
flow chillers and for the same final temp we are looking at about 40 gal. of 
tap water.

Now on to the sparging question,

What is the difference between mash-out and sparging. I understood that if you
mash out at 170 deg.F you raised the temp of the mash to 170 deg.F and then
keep it at this temp for some time. With sparging you let the mash water drain
out as you add sparge water, trying to keep the water level above the grian
bed. How could it take 2 hr to run water sparge water through your grain bed
unless the sparge was stuck(set mash?).

My plan is:

- -- Fill my cooler with grain add hot water for a final temp of 155 deg.F

- -- Let this sit until conversion about 1-2 hrs. I'll use the iodone test

- -- Recirculate until the run-off is not cloudly.

- -- Run 170-175 deg.F water(sparging?) throught the grain bed keep the water 
   level about 1/2-1 in about the grain bed untill the run-off is not longer
   sweet or I reach my 7 gal. volume.

- -- Then proceed as usual

I believe I am using a single step mash at 150 deg.F with a 170 deg.F sparge
I won't be using a protein rest or a mash-out. Did I discribe this right?

The reason I want a little discussion about this is that lately I have become
confused about what people are doing and I need some help. It seems that
sometimes people say mash-out when they are really sparging and the other way
around.

As usual I would like to thank everyone for there help, I have learn more
here than with all the books I own.

Tom Feller

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Date: 31 Jul 92 13:38:00 EST
From: "CMD 2NDLT ALBERT W. TAYLOR " <S94TAYLOR at usuhsb.ucc.usuhs.nnmc.navy.mil>
Subject: Wort Chilling, Some chilling thoughts...

Before making my immersion chiller, I advocated using a 2.5 gallon jug of
bottled water at near freezing temp to cool the wort down to pitching temp.
This worked very well for about 10 batches.  I now use my new toy, which will
cool 3 gallons of boiling wort to 80 degrees F in about 15 minutes while using
only 15 gallons of tap water (at ~65 deg F).  BTW the whole thing only cost
me $25 to build.  I then add the same bottled water, but at room temp. to bring
to 5 gallons.  I seems to me that combining the two techniques would easily
allow for cooling to a reasonable lager pitching temp.

Another idea, though much more elaborate, is to send the cooling water through
a copper coil submerged in an ice bath before it gets to the wort.  This would
cool the water down to around 40 deg, based on my crude measurements of the 
heat exchange of my chiller.  This idea may best be described as a flight of
fancy, but I always did like the t.v. show "MacGyver".

I'm interested to hear comments on my ideas, in public or private :-)
Al Taylor, MS-III
Uniformed Services University, School of Medicine, Bethesda, MD


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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 11:21:14 PDT
From: jeg at sangabriel.desktalk.com (John E. Greene)
Subject: All Grain Brewing.

A few years back I splurged and bought myself the AutoMash(tm).  I set 
everything up the night before, program the timer and set the delay and go
to bed.  When I wake up it the morning the AutoMash is purring away stirring
the grain with "Ready to Sparge!" on it's display.  I can do up to a 6 step 
mash if I so desire.  I really like it because it does everything for you.
No stirring, no monitoring the temperature.  The kettle has a water jacket
in which the heating element is contained.  This in combination with the 
propellers really keep the temperature consistent, eliminating hot spots.

It wasn't cheap but there are a lot of fellow brewers that are more than 
willing to donate a few dollars to use it for the weekend.  It didn't take 
long to make up for the initial investment.  

If I have any complaint about the device it would be the difficulty in 
getting the grain out after it is done.  With the water jacket and the grain
combined, the thing is very heavy.  I usually have to scoop the grain out 
using a pan and dump it into the sparging vessel.  A minor annoyance compared
to fully automatic mashing.

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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 10:47:55 PDT
From: polstra!larryba at uunet.UU.NET (Larry Barello)
Subject: Re: Reaching 300 ppm Sulfate

In HBD #939, Greg writes:
>
>I will be brewing an ordinary Bitter and have read that you should 
>aim for about 300 ppm sulfate to be true to style (according to 
>Zymurgy special issue).  Assuming I have 0 ppm sulfate in my water, 
>how much Burton water salts should I add to obtain 300 ppm sulfate in 
>5 gallons?  Are there forumlas to obtain the info?  Thanks.  
>                       
I use the following chart that I calculated out.  I don't
use burton salts since I have not a clue as to what proportions of
gypsum, salt and epsom salt are in it.

Gypsum (calcium sulphate dihydrate):
      62ppm/gm/gal Ca++
     147ppm/gm/gal SO4-

Calcium Chloride dihydrate:
      73ppm/gm/gal Ca++
     127ppm/gm/gal CL-

Calcium Carbonate (precipitated chalk):
     107ppm/gm/gal Ca++
     157ppm/gm/gal CO3--

For making IPA I use 14gm gypsum and 1.5gm chalk in seven gallons 
of supply liquor, of which 6 gals gets into the beer (5.5 gal after boil) 
 - that works out to something near 300ppm of sulphate.

Sorry I don't have volume conversions handy.  I have heard that 
one tsp is about 5 grams.  The best thing to do is get a cheap 
loading scale from a gun shop.  Or, if you have $50 to blow, 
there is a place in Vancouver BC that sells an electronic
scale.  I got one and checked it out; it is pretty accurate
compared to my triple beam.  I measured 5, 75 anmd
300 gram objects and it was within 2gm  at 300 and within a gm (
the resolution limit) in the lower ranges.

The place is NamTai and they can be reached at 1-800-661-8831.
It costs US $49 and that includes shipping.  I saw the ad for 
this scale in the Wall Street Journal several months ago.

Cheers!
- -- 
- -----
Larry Barello			uunet!polstra!larryba

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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 10:59:51 PDT
From: polstra!larryba at uunet.UU.NET (Larry Barello)
Subject: Re: Brewing time (was Re: Advanced Brewing (NON-EXTRACT) worth it?)

In HBD #939 Doug writes:
>...
>The additional time required for all-grain brewing can be greatly
>affected by the mashing technique (is it infusion? step? or decoction
>mash?), the beer style (for example, a wheat beer will require a
>protein rest which is additional time), and the equipment the brewer

Ah, that famous protein rest...  I have made a half dozen wheat
beers with 50:50 wheat to barley malt.  the last two I made I 
dispensed with the protein rest and saw no evidence of protein
induced chill haze.  Maybe I didn't chill it enough (48f).  But,
given what I know about US, in particular Great Western Malting, malts
I would say that protein rests for even wheat beers is a waste of
time.

Going out on a limb: the *only* time you need a protein rest is when
using unmalted adjuncts, in particular oats, wheat or barley.  And then
only if the adjunct is more than an ounce /gal of brew.  I.e. don't
worry if you are just adding 4oz as a heading agent.

Cheers!
- -- 
- -----
Larry Barello			uunet!polstra!larryba

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Date:         FRI, 31 Jul 92 14:33:36 EDT
From: "Deborah Poirier" <POIRIER at INRS-ENER.UQuebec.CA>
Subject:      chilling temperatures

From: Deborah Poirier

Mike McNally asked:
>What temperatures do people normally shoot for when chilling?

It depends on the yeast I'm using, but I usually gun for 18-20 C. That was
with a flow-through chiller. (Beer in coils, coils in partially plugged
kitchen sink with cold water running). The output temperature depended on how
quickly I let the wort drain through the tubing: faster=hotter output. But
tonight I'm debuting a new counterflow chiller that I made yesterday. Can't
wait!!! I'll still adjust flow rates to get about 20C, though.

Deb

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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 15:10:07 EDT
From: Chris Shenton <chris at srm1.stx.com>
Subject: Innovative lauter tuns

Chris Karras (RKarras at PennSAS.UPenn.edu) writes:

> I have been using the 5 gallon cylindrical Gott/Rubbermaid orange
> cooler ...  I have been setting a stainless steel steamer (one of
> those odd kitchen items that looks like a flower with petals that
> unfold to double the diameter and that has little 1/2" legs).

And pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle) replies:

>    I use this very same apparatus (the steamer) in a large bucket as
> my lauter tun.  I haven't used it in conjunction with the grain bag
> yet (I just bought my grain bag), but it seems to do the trick quite
> nicely as far as holding the grain above the bottom.  The only
> problem I've had is pouring ten pounds of grain from my mash tun
> (Bruheat) into this contraption without knocking the steamer
> crooked.

> Now that I have a grain bag, I'd like to hear from others who've
> used it to mash and sparge straight out of a Bruheat or similar
> gadget.

OK, I'll bite: why use the stainer gizmo if you're gonna put your
grain in a porous grain-bag anyway?

I use a set up similar to you two, but I have a large, round plastic
collander which fits snugly and seals tightly around the edges when
pushed to the bottom of the cooler. I wanted to avoid the grain bag
because when I first started mashing (with the Zapap lauter tun), much
of the sparge/wort ran down between the bag and the walls of the tun
- -- path of least resistance and capillary action I imagine; it avoided
the grain and gave a low extraction rate. Also, the collander fits
tightly enough that it doesn't budge when you dump all the grain or
mash onto it. (Remember to run some string through it so you can pull
it out, though!)

Your milage may vary, blah, blah, blah. :-)


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Date: Fri, 0 Jul 92 08:55:47 PDT
From: Tim Williams <timwi at microsoft.com>
Subject: T shirt

I've seen various people wearing T-shirts with the chemical pathway for
fermentation in yeast on the front.  However, the local store where they got
them does not seem to have it anymore (it is just a T-sshirt store, not a brew
supply place).  Anyone know where I could mail order such a shirt?  Please
respond via e-mail, as I don't get the digest, just occasionally read someone
elses copy.

Tim Williams
timwi at microsoft.com


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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 13:06:19 PDT
From: ithaca!amber!phoebe at uunet.UU.NET (P. Couch)
Subject: Re: Dry Hopping with Hop Plugs

	From: Patrick_Waara.WBST129 at xerox.com 
	
	I have a question regarding dry hopping with hop plugs.  It seems the hop plugs
	are just a little too large to easily fit through the mouth of the carboy.  In
	the past I have attempted to break the plug in two by working it back and forth
	in my hands, which is no easy task (and probably an infection risk).  A knife
	did not seem to work too well either.  Does anyone have any suggestions as to
	how to get the hop plug easily into the carboy?  Thanks.

Sounds like you can just crush the plugs in the bag that it came in (with
a roller or a hammer) or put it in a (coffee) grinder. 
I usually use a funnel and the handle of a spoon to push the hops thru.
P.

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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 15:16:50 MDT
From: mlh at cygnus.ta52.lanl.gov (Michael L. Hall)
Subject: Re: Ice in Wort Chillers


Mike McNally writes:

>I need to understand how the "immersion chiller as makeshift 
>flow-through chiller" actually works.  I like to get my beer 
>down to about 50 degrees (F) as quickly as possible.  To do 
>this, my calculations show that do drop my just-after-boiling 
>five gallons of wort down to fifty degrees, I need to "mix" it
>with at least 42 gallons of ice water:
>
>    Vc = (VbTb - VbTt) / (Tt - Tc)
>
>where Vc = chilled water volume, Vb is wort volume, Tc is chilled
>water temperature, Tb is wort temperature, and Tt is target 
>temperature.  

You're close, but you're missing one very important thing. Your solution would
be right *if* you were mixing zero degree water with your wort. However, you're
not just mixing zero degree water (and getting the cooling power of the water),
you're also mixing ice, which has additional cooling power. [Note 1] The cooling
power of water is referred to as the specific heat, C_p, which is

    C   = 1 cal / g C
     p
     
In other words, it takes one calorie to raise the temperature of one gram of
water one degree Celsius. [Note 2] The cooling power of ice (at 0 C) is referred 
to as the heat of fusion, H_ls, which is

    H   = 80 cal / g
     ls
     
In other words, it takes 80 calories to melt one gram of ice at 0 C into one
gram of water at 0 C. In addition, ice can exist at different temperatures, and
supercooled ice has a cooling power of roughly

    C   = .5 cal / g C
     p
 
How about an example for clarity. First of all, let's assume that the specific
gravity of water, wort and ice is roughly constant. That lets us work in terms
of volume instead of weight and doesn't add significant error. Then, assume
that we have five gallons of hot (100 C) wort and a tub full of 3 gallons of
ice at -10 C and 2 gallons of water at 0 C. Further assume that the specific
heat of the wort is the same as water, and calculate the final temperature of
the collection after it has come to a thermal equilibrium.  First let's do an
energy balance:

Wort                          Water                       

(1 cal/g C) (100 - T) 5 gal + (1 cal/g C) (0 - T) 2 gal + 

Subcooled ice                  ice

(.5 cal/g C) (-10 - 0) 3 gal + -(80 cal/g) 3 gal +

Melted ice water

(1 cal/g C) (0 - T) 3 gal   =  0

Multiplying out gives:

Wort       Water  Subcooled ice   ice    Melted ice water

500 - 5T - 2T     - 15            - 240  - 3T               = 0

and...

245 = 10 T

T = 24.5 C 

Since we dropped some units along the way, we don't know what the number of
calories each contributed is, but we can determine the relative amounts of heat
transferred:

Wort       Water  Subcooled ice   ice    Melted ice water

377.5      -49    -15             -240   -73.5           = 0

You can see that the water helped, and the melted ice water and the subcooled
ice helped some too, but the majority of the cooling was done by the melting of
the ice itself. In fact, let's calculate just how much ice melting (not considering
the melted ice) it would take to cool 5 gallons of wort to room temperature
(about 20 C):

5 (100 - 20) + X (-80) = 0

X = 5 gallons of ice.

In fact, that's a good and easy thing to remember: you need as many gallons of
ice as you have wort in order to cool your wort 80 degrees C (and have 0 C ice
water left over). If your final water temperature is higher, or your ice was 
colder than 0 C, then you need less, of course.

Therefore, I think that the answer to all the water shortage problems is to trade
water for energy. Namely, freeze your water to increase its cooling power. Here's
a tip: Use old milk/OJ/whatever cartons to freeze blocks of ice for cooling. Then
rip off the cardboard for a good chunk of ice. It's not sterile, but if it doesn't
touch your wort, who cares?

Michael L. Hall
Thermohydraulic nut :^)

[1] - It's not strictly correct to refer to the "cooling power" of something.
There's no such thing as cold, only lack of heat. Heat moves from hotter spots
to cooler spots. I just use the term "cooling power" as an aid to understanding.

[2] - A Calorie (capitalized, used in dietary stuff) is equal to one kilocalorie.

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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 12:41:53 PDT
From: Pat Lasswell <patl at microsoft.com>
Subject: All-grain mashing time

Here's my $0.02:

My brewing day is about 12-hours long, but in that time, my 
brewing-partner and I eat, drink and talk, with copious amounts of 
each.  Since I spend most of my time (like right now) sitting in front 
of a CRT, 12 hours of human contact is refreshing.  Were he unable to 
make it to a particular session, I do not think that I would do a 
three-decoction mash like I usually do; I would probably do something 
that takes only six hours or so.  My point is simple: brewing with 
someone else is more fun than doing it alone; it's also a little 
easier, as every now and then you need 4 hands.  Lastly, you may find 
it difficult to get someone to brew with; however, I dare say that most 
of us know at least one person who is "kind of interested".  Invite 
them over and/or offer to teach them how.  The world needs more brewers... :)

No Disclaimer

Pat Lasswell


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Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 18:31 EDT
From: Kinney Baughman <BAUGHMANKR at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Blue stuff, pick-up tubes, o-rings, etc.

Some of this is dated.  Sorry.  The posting glut of a couple of weeks 
ago knocked me out of synch.  

As for the thread on the blue-stuff in copper wort chillers:

Mike sez:

>Based on my world-class understanding of chemistry, I'd guess that the
>blue stuff that forms on your copper wort chiller is copper sulfate.
>If I'm right, then you definitely want to get rid of it; it's toxic.
>You might try rinsing with a little vinegar and salt in boiling water.

Hate to butt heads with your world-class understanding of chemistry, 
Mike, :-) but the blue stuff ain't copper sulfate.  Copper sulfate 
is formed from trying to sterilize the copper with sodium 
metabisulphite and that's why treating copper with sodium met is 
generally discouraged.  And you're right.  You would definitely want 
to get rid of that stuff.  

In another post, Jeff speculates:

>Glenn asks about little blue flakes coming out of his wort chiller.
>Sounds to me like verdigris--and it sounds like time to bring in
>the chemists.  According to the dictionary, verdigris formed by the
>action of acetic acid on copper is poisonous, while a deposit of
>copper carbonates is not.

Well, since clorox doesn't contain acetic acid, I would doubt it's 
verdigris.  This does raise the question of whether cleaning copper 
with vinegar is a good idea since it IS acetic acid. 

I've noticed it in my chillers down through the years and have never 
worried about it.  I figured that since it was particulate matter that 
it settled out with the yeast and never made into a bottle of beer 
anyway.

Still I guess it is time to call out the chemists.  What is that stuff?  
Could it be the cause of my curly hair?  :-)

Dennis writes in response to the best way to connect slotted 
copper tubing to the opening of a cooler tun:

>To connect the two, I used a polypropylene (working temp to 250 degrees)
>3/8 inch tube-to-tube bulkhead union that fit precisely in the cooler hole.
>Once the bulkhead is tightened, the gasket that comes with the cooler seals
>well. If you take the bulkhead out you can still use the cooler.

>This part comes from US Plastics Corp (800)537-9724 (part number 61123, $1.20)
>It's worth getting their catalog, as they have a full line of valves, vinyl
>tubing, and tanks too.  Minimum order is $10 I think.

I use this same part in the construction of the BrewChiller.  I'll go 
out on a limb and sell these to anyone who wants them if you'll send 
send me a dollar bill, a 29 cent stamp and a self-addressed stamped 
envelope.  That'll save some of you from having to buy $10 worth of 
parts to get one. 

Donald Oconnor writes concerning the o-rings on kegs:

>let me explain why this business of dirty o-rings ruining the flavor
>profile of homebrew has never made any sense.  Beer is essentially
>water with a little alcohol.  If you soak o-rings in water and/or
>alcohol and the stuff won't come out, then why in the hell would
>it ever come out in your beer which, i'll repeat myself,  is
>water and alcohol?  Secondly, if you can smell the pop on the
>o-ring, then it is coming out.  that's why you can smell it.  Third,
>o-rings are not very large.  Unless you believe there are little
>elves making soda pop in there, it's hard to imagine getting enough
>of anything out of them to ruin 5 or as some claim, 20 gallons of
>flavorful, malty brew.

That may be all well and good, Donald, and it makes a nice 
intellectual argument but all I can say is that you should have  
tasted that nice Coca-cola lager I made about 8 years ago when I 
switched over to kegs.  Buy new O-rings.  And don't think twice about 
it.  It is definitely NOT a myth.  You can go ahead and put your next 
batch of all-grain into a keg with old o-rings.  But don't say that I 
and several others of us haven't warned you.  (I'm not trying to be a 
smart a**.  But you seem adamant about this and I don't want you to 
ruin a batch of beer.)

Tom Feller asks:

>I made a siphon rod out of 3/8 copper pipe
>with a cap in the end and a hole drilled about 3/4 in above the end so I would
>not pick up too much stuff off the bottom of the pot.Here the problem I got the
>siphon started OK but it never had a good flow. Yes I did pick up some hops but
>I stopped and cleaned everything out and still had bad flow. It took almost a
>hour to siphon about 4 gal.(I pour the rest in through a funnel and screen).

>Does anyone use this method? Does anyone have any ideas on how to make it flow
>better? 

Don't solder the end of the tube closed.  Cut the end cap off and 
solder an inverted 3/4" copper cap on the end of the tube.  In effect, 
it does the same thing the little orange caps do on the plastic siphon 
canes.  It causes the wort to be sucked from above instead of from 
below.  Tie a copper wound, Chore-Boy pot scrubber to the bottom of the 
tube to filter out the hops.  In addition you can tie some mosquito 
netting or a fine-mesh hop bag around that to further improve the 
filter action. 

And finally, Mike asks:

>What temperatures do people normally shoot for when chilling?

Though I'm sure some would disagree, I shoot for 70 degrees when 
chilling.  According to Dave Logsdon at Wyeast, this is a very 
comfortable temperature for yeast and they show a dramatic increase in 
growth compared to even 60 or 65 degrees.  Then I take the fermenter 
to the basement (55 degrees).  By the time the wort reaches ambient 
basement temperatures the yeast have had a chance to bask for a while 
in 70 degree wort and are up and running.  To me, it seems to be the 
best of both worlds. 

Cheers!

+------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Kinney Baughman                     Appalachian State University |
| baughmankr at appstate.bitnet                       Boone, NC 28608 |
| baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu                     (704)963-6949 |
|                                                                  |
|             Bush/Quayle '92      "Just Say Noe"                  |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 18:34 EDT
From: Kinney Baughman <BAUGHMANKR at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Answers to Bruheat questions


Brett Shorten asks about cleaning the Bruheat:

I've been using a Bruheat for 11 years and distributing them for 6.  
By far, the best way to clean the element is to use B-Brite.  After a 
round of making beer, rinse the bucket, fill it with enough water to 
cover the element, add a tablespoon or two of B-Brite and boil.  The 
white coating of sugar that is always on the element will float off in 
a minute or two.  If the element is already blackened, you may need to 
add more B-Brite and boil for a longer period of time, interspersed 
with some soaking.

I just discovered this last year and am amazed at how good a job B-
Brite does.  It's non-abrasive and keeps the element shiny clean.
BTW, it cleans the plastic bucket extraordinarily well, too.

On the same subject, sherpa2 (no sig) sez:

Subject: Re: Bruheat Cleaning & other

>...its a lot easier to clean if you remove the element from the 
>"kettle". Brillo does a fair job, but the best thing I've found is the 
>copper pot scrubbers available at most supermarkets.  If you clean it 
>up after every use with the pot scrubber, it shouldn't take more than 
>30 seconds or so (brillo used to take me 5-10 minutes!). 

Use Brillo pads or copper scrubbers only as a last resort.  They will 
scratch off the plating.  I find that this is only necessary when 
cleaning an element that hasn't been cleaned since God knows how long.  
Routine boiling with B-Brite should eliminate the need to ever use an 
abrasive pad. 

>Be careful when you remove the heating element not to damage the
>rubber (?) washer.  You'll have to remove the washer to clean the
>element, but I've had a good deal of trouble with that.  Experience
>has shown my washers only have a lifetime of 10 batches or so.  Of
>course the local homebrew store doesn't carry spares (even though they
>sell the bruheat), and plumbing places have not been helpful.  

The rubber washers were a big problem in one of the shipments I 
received a year or so ago.  They improved the quality in the last few 
shipments but even those aren't as good as the old black washers they 
used to use.  Those suckers lasted for years.  

Anyway, I've got spares.  Again, send me a self-adressed stamped 
envelope and I'll send you 3 or 4 for free. 

While we're on the subject, I rewrote the instructions for the Bruheat 
in the spring.  They're much improved over the old instructions.  The 
B-Brite routine is covered and, among other things, a trouble-shooting 
guide is included .  I know there are a lot of Bruheat users on the 
net so if you want a copy of the new instructions, email me and I'll 
send them to you. 

Whew!  Lots of talk about the Bruheat lately.  Norm writes:

>I recently purchased a Cordon Brew brand Bruheat Boiler for mashing and
>Now that I have a grain bag, I'd like to hear from others who've used it to
>mash and sparge straight out of a Bruheat or similar gadget.  Problems?  What
>grain/water ratios do you use (this seems to be a bone of contention between
>Bruheat and Dave Line)?  The reason I'd like to do this is to avoid having to
>dump all that hot grain into a separate lauter tun.  Comments and ideas to
>streamline the process are welcome.

I always advise transferring the goods to a separate lauter tun and 
sparging back into the Bruheat.  By doing this, you can be bringing 
the wort to a boil as you sparge.  This is a big time-saver.

Use a quart pot to ladle several quarts of the mash over to the lauter 
tun to take some of the weight from the Bruheat.  You can then pour 
the last bit of the mash over, give a quick rinse to the Bruheat, and 
start sparging back into it.  Fairly simple process, actually.

Cheers!

+------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Kinney Baughman                     Appalachian State University |
| baughmankr at appstate.bitnet                       Boone, NC 28608 |
| baughmankr at conrad.appstate.edu                     (704)963-6949 |
|                                                                  |
|             Bush/Quayle '92      "Just Say Noe"                  |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 1 Aug 92 15:11 BST
From: Brendan Halpin <HALPIN at vax.ox.ac.uk>
Subject: HOMEBREW Digest #939

Norm Pyle (pyle at intellistor.com) writes:
> Now that I have a grain bag, I'd like to hear from others who've used it to
> mash and sparge straight out of a Bruheat or similar gadget.  Problems?  What
> grain/water ratios do you use (this seems to be a bone of contention between
> Bruheat and Dave Line)?  The reason I'd like to do this is to avoid having to
> dump all that hot grain into a separate lauter tun.  Comments and ideas to
> streamline the process are welcome.
> 
> Norm

I've been using a Thorne-Electrim Bruheat clone for a while now, with
no real problems. I don't use a grain bag as such, but rather a square
metre of terylene netting which I knot under the handle. This
functions reasonably well, as it hangs down into the bin most of the
way to the element when full of grain. I drain and sparge directly
from the bin as well, which has the disadvantage of not freeing the
bin to heat sparge water but is otherwise convenient. 

The one observation I have made is that I need to use a lot of mashing
water. When I went according to the book (Wheeler) I got a miserable
efficiency, under 70%. This is presumably because of the free volume
under the grain. However, this week I brewed and used the ridiculously
high ratio of 4 galls (imperial, about 18 litres) to 7.5 pounds of
grain. This, and a careful sparge, resulted in my highest extraction
yet, about 89%. Wheeler suggests a thin mash results in a sweeter
beer; I'm waiting to see. (**Comments welcome**)

It's great for single-step mashing (I don't make lagers, but I imagine
a multi-step mash would be quite convenient). I heat the water to c.
72C, stir in the grain (tired arms!) and generally find the temp to
have dropped to c. 67C. I wrap a few old sweaters around the bin, and
that keeps the temp very solid, dropping no more than 2 deg. in 45
mins. It thus generally needs no more than one heating boost in a 1h30
mash (stir vigorously while heating!). 

Tip: when you're interested in raising the temperature, rather than
maintaining a boil or mash, bypass the simmerstat. This cycles on and
off even when below the desired temp, and really slows things down
when you're trying to get the boil started. I have an old kettle with
similar connections, so I use the lead from that: it'll bring the
spargings to a boil in little over half an hour.

[Wheeler, Graham, _Home Brewing: the CAMRA guide_, ISBN 1-85249-107-8]

Sla/inte,
Brendan.

Brendan Halpin                    International: HALPIN at VAX.OXFORD.AC.UK
Nuffield College                          JANET: HALPIN at OX.VAX
Oxford OX1 1NF
United Kingdom

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Date: Sat, 1 Aug 92 08:57 CDT
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Grain Bags

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 >From: Ruth Mazo Karras <RKARRAS at PENNSAS.UPENN.EDU>
 >Subject: Cooler Lauter Tuns
 
 >I have been using the 5 gallon cylindrical Gott/Rubbermaid orange cooler as 
 a lautertun with apparent good results. Rather than use the slotted copper
 tubing or window screen over a pipe to filter the wort from the grain, I have
 been setting a stainless steel steamer (one of those odd kitchen items that
 looks like a flower with petals that unfold to double the diameter and that
 has little 1/2" legs). It is just the right size to fit in the bottom of the
 cooler and when the grain is in a mesh nylon grain bag sitting on top of the
 steamer I suspect that I get a better filtering action than with the slotted
 tubes and with much less work/expense.
 
 I can't help but wonder how messing (literally) around with a grain bag fits 
 into your "less work" equation.
 
 It seems to me that filling, installing, emptying and cleaning a grain bag is 
 far more work than hosing out a bucket or kettle with a built in strainer.  
 Of course you can reduce the work by using a new one each time but then the 
 cost goes up.
 
 Am I missing something?
 
 js
 
 

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Date: Sat, 1 Aug 92 11:53 CDT
From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
Subject: Belgian malt outlet

     There is a Chicago homebrewer who runs a malt supply business from
his basement.  He concentrates on the Belgian malts but also carries some
domestic malt.  From time to time he carries other homebrewing stuff. 
Currently he has 3 gallon Cornelius kegs for $25.00 and US Fuggle &
Hallertau hop pellets for $4.00/lb.  The Belgian malts go for .95/lb for
small orders but less for larger orders.

     His name is Tim Norris and can be reached on Compuserv at
71650,1020, fax orders to 312-545-0770, phone orders to 312-545-4004.

chris

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Date: Sun, 2 Aug 92 09:18 CDT
From: fjdobner at ihlpb.att.com
Subject: Extract/Extract Kit Reviews


Fellow Brewers,


Personally, I enjoy the discussion w.r.t. grain v. extract  brewing since
I am at a point where I have done both and enjoy both. Specifically
regarding extract brewing, I would like to know if any large or small
evaluation of extracts or extract kits has been undertaken? I am sure
that I can go through the Cat's Meow and come up with a top
five extracts by looking through the recipes but I sure would like
to survey people's opinions on:

1. Top ten extract kits (kind with yeast, already hopped, add sugar etc.)

2. Top ten extracts (hopped or unhopped versions)

3. Comments

I will be glad to post the results if brewers would send me e-mail 
privately. Use the e-mail address in the header. I think that this would
be a nice compilation in order to help out new brewers in the choice
of extract with which to start.

Frank Dobner

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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 92 10:47:08 BST
From: des at pandora.swindon.ingr.com (Desmond Mottram)
Subject: Re: cleaning bruheat element

I apologise for not giving credits but I'm having a few problems with 
hanging on to HBDs once read. One person mentioned problems cleaning 
his Bruheat boiler and someone else recommended a grain bag but said 
take care not to melt it on the element.

A grain bag certainly works for me, I never have to give the element more 
than a good scrub with a pot scourer to bring it up bright and shiny. I've 
never had to dismantle the element either, though I've only done 10 or so 
batches with it so far. Furthermore the grain bag I bought specifically 
said that the bag was constructed of heat resistant materials which would 
not melt on contact with the element, provided it was covered with water or 
wort. I'd suggest looking out for one of these.

Someone else mentioned having to transfer the grains to sparge them, again 
not necessary if your mash tun (lauter tun? I'm British) has a tap at the 
bottom. When the mash has finished just crack open the tap and run sparge 
water in at the top as the wort runs out.

Lastly, anyone going to the Great British Beer Festival at Olympia, London,
this week? 300 British beers, ciders, perrys, excellent imports, plus 
music, food and creche. Does anyone disagree that this IS the world's 
greatest beer event, Oktoberfest not withstanding :-) ?

Desmond Mottram
des at pandora.swindon.ingr.com

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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1992 09:18 EDT
From: KENYON%1235%erevax.BITNET at pucc.Princeton.EDU
Subject: Splitting Hops plugs for Dry Hopping

In HBD 939, Pat sez:

>I have a question regarding dry hopping with hop plugs.  It seems the hop plugs
are just a little too large to easily fit through the mouth of the carboy.  In
the past I have attempted to break the plug in two by working it back and forth
in my hands, which is no easy task (and probably an infection risk).  A knife
did not seem to work too well either.  Does anyone have any suggestions as to
how to get the hop plug easily into the carboy?  Thanks.

You're right, trying to "cut" the plug with a knife doesn't work very well.  The

way I do it, is to put the plug (flat side down) on a cutting board, take a shar
   p
STURDY knife and pierce the tip into the center of the plug.  I then bear down a
   nd
work the knife back and forth.  After you work the tip through the plug, about h
   alf
of the plug will have been severed.  It is then much easier to rip the plug in t
   wo
pieces with your hands.  I repeat, tho, use a sturdy knife since it can take a
considerable amount of leverage to work the knife through the plug.

 -Chuck-

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #940, 08/04/92