FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Bud keg setup help wanted           (Arthur Delano)
  Apology (Re: Bud keg setup help wanted) (Arthur Delano)
  FOXX EQUIPMENT (Jim Kirk II)
  WHO IS WHO IN CHIGAGO (Jack Schmidling)
  Re : pushing the limits (Conn Copas)
  Wyeast Belgian (Phillip Seitz)
  Re: Use ice for cooling wort (Randy J. Smith)
  Bringing beer back from Europe (Phillip Seitz)
  more label the bottlecaps instead... (Michael J. Gerard)
  Pre- or Post-boil Extraction Rate Measurement (Carl West)
  Boiler Construction / Silver Solder (Bob Gorman)
  Dry hopping and clarity... (Keith Winter)
  Grandfathers and beer (Wally L. Blume)
  10 Step All Grain Process - Revised  (smanastasi)
  Large Gott thermos container as primary. (Paul AndersEn                       )
  Bottle-cultured yeasts (Russell L. Oertel)
  Potato Dextrin Plates (craigman)
  Re: Chillers and Bernoulli (Uncle!) (SSIEGLER)
  Vit C, breweries, Kraeusening (Tracy Waldon)
  Belgian Candy Sugar (David Resch)
  B-Brite (Pierre Jelenc)
  Bottle sanitation?? (Dave Gilbert)
  Any sociologists out there? (PGRAHAME)
  What's happening? (Mark Stobbs)
  "Natural Carbonation" and Siphons (KIERAN O'CONNOR)
  manifold for cooler mashing (envkas)
  Re: Beer Concentrate (wegeng.henr801c)
  carbonation, beer concentrate ("PAUL EDWARDS")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 16:56:49 EDT
From: Arthur Delano <ajd at itl.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Bud keg setup help wanted          


Due to a combination of patience and serendipity, i now have an
Anheuser-Busch keg and CO2 canister (for a net cost of $20!).

I don't have any fittings, and before i buy any, i would like
advice on what i need to get.  While soda kegs seem to be
common currency among homebrewers, i don't have one and i assume
that the fittings are different.

So...
  (1) What is the minimum easily-usable setup?
  (2) What special tools, if any, are going to be necessary?
  (3) From which vendor ought i get the remaining equipment?        
      I already receive the Superior Products catalogue.

AjD
the keg is 7.5 gallons, so i shan't be making large batches for
a while yet.

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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 17:00:44 EDT
From: Arthur Delano <ajd at itl.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Apology (Re: Bud keg setup help wanted)


My article is probably going to be posted twice.  The system said
that it couldn't acces the alias, so i re-sent my message, and
now...

AjD
and that's enough waste of bandwidth

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Date: 23 Aug 92 12:00:21 EDT
From: Jim Kirk II <70403.3157 at compuserve.com>
Subject: FOXX EQUIPMENT

=>Foxx Beverage, who got into the homebrew kegging supply business by
=>popular demand and has done us a tremendous serevice, is now getting
=>out of it.
 
Actually they are getting into it BIG TIME.
The deal is, they don't sell wholesale anymore except to homebrew suppliers
and other beverage distribution companies.
 
In a letter from Ford Maurer, President I quote;
"We have established distrubutors across the country, and are looking to
have complete geographical coverage of the USA and Canada."
 
I have spoken with a representative from Foxx and was told that they will
still sell RETAIL to anybody, but you can get better pricing from a
participating homebrew supplier.
 
If any homebrew suppliers are listening, Foxx wants you. Contact them. <JK>



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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 10:23 CDT
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: WHO IS WHO IN CHIGAGO

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 Friday's Chicago Tribune had a great article on homebrewing.  There is a 1/3 
 page picture of Ray Daniels stirring a mash, another one of his cooler full 
 of fermenting stuff and some insightful remarks about the quality of beer 
 made my the "gurus" of the Chicago Beer Society.
 
 "On a recent evening, club members shared 25 different beers they had brewed. 
 Chris Campanelli got raves for his deliciously rich imperial stout, a strong 
 brew that was originally exported from England to the court of Russia in the 
 1700s."
 
 "Al Korzonas, though, had a bad night.  About his bock beer, concensus among 
 club members was that it was "within style" but had several flaws, not the 
 least of which was that it smelled like home hair-perming solution."
 
 "His second offering smelled and tasted something like bananas.  This was an 
 interesting concept, except it was a mistake, Korzonas cheerfully conceded."
 
 Among other things, this sort of confirms my opinion of the usefulness of 
 brewing "to style".   It also points out the idiocy of trashing someone's 
 brewing skill based on a random tasting.  It also reminds one of the old 
 adage of living in glass houses.
 
 The other thing that caught my attention was that, in spite of the fact that 
 just about all named in the article own MALTMILLS and the process of all 
 grain brewing was described in some detail, not one word was said about the 
 need to mill the grain.
 
 What was even more peculiar was that the third picture was indeed of a 
 MALTMILL, but it was cropped in such a way that all one could see was the 
 hopper full of grain and the logo carefully excluded.
 
 Now this normally would not bother anyone except that there was no shortage 
 of plugs in the article for gizmos for sale and places to buy, associated 
 with others in the article.
 
 Do I detect a conspiracy?
 
 js
 
 
 
 
 

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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 19:25:21 BST
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re : pushing the limits

Bob asks :
>
As another experiment, I'm going to make a batch with 6 lbs. Alexander's
light extract, and then go heavy (3 lbs) on the crystal malt to see how
much it takes to get that "caramelly" flavor.  Again, any others out there
who've done something like this?  I'm trying to do some experiments to push
normal limits of ingredients to see what the effect of extremes are in order
to establish some scale for ingredients other than straight malt.
<
I make an old ale using 3-4 lbs crystal (unknown rating) and 6lbs malt. As I've
posted before, I get an extract of around 10 from the crystal, for some
unknown reason. For my mashing/fermenting conditions, the crystal seems to
yield around 30% fermentables. I'm used to drinking my bitters 5 days after the
end of the primary ferment, but this sort of brew is one for the long haul. It
is sweet and harsh for about 3 months, then undergoes a fairly dramatic
improvement in smoothness and integration. Head retention also seems to require
an uncommon degree of aging.

- -- 
Loughborough University of Technology          tel : (0509)263171  ext 4164
Computer-Human Interaction Research Centre     fax : (0509)610815      
Leicestershire  LE11 3TU           e-mail - (Janet):C.V.Copas at uk.ac.lut   
G Britain                 (Internet):C.V.Copas%lut.ac.uk at nsfnet-relay.ac.uk


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Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 21:19 GMT
From: Phillip Seitz <0004531571 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Wyeast Belgian

Over the past month or so there has been some discussion regarding the
fermentation and flavor characteristics of Wyeast's Belgian strain.  One
report suggested it to be a slow fermenter that added a lot of banana
flavor if not kept at low temperatures.  Another called it a fast
fermenter with a wine-like finish.  

I am about to bottle a batch based closely on the extract recipe for a 
triple that appears in Pierre Rajotte's book, Belgian Ale.  This called
for all light malts, and a lot of them (6.6 lbs pale liquid extract, 
3 lbs pale dry extract), as well as 1.5 pounds of corn sugar.  So while
the gravity is high, the malt (and hops also) are expected to take a back
seat to the yeast flavors.  

My own experience is closer to the second description above; I had an
extremely active and rapid fermentation, dropping from 1.075 to 1.018
in less than a week.  In addition, there was a lot of sediment in both the
primary and secondary fermenters.  (Fermentation took place at 70-75
degrees, with a 1-pint starter).  This is clearly the most agressive
fermenter I've seen in my short brewing career.

The flavor so far is really very neutral--which I see as a bit of a 
disappointment.  The fermented product has a very noticeable alchohol
aroma, and a flavor that's very mildly brandy-ish.  This latter may have
arisen from the carmelization of my boiling wort, which is quite apparent
(a risk, I guess, of using standard extract techniques on high-gravity
clear beers).

Anyway, the stuff ferments great--and fast--but doesn't supply much in 
the way of interesting flavor.  I'd use it in the future as a clean
fermenter for high-gravity beers, but also make sure I use some interesting
specialty malts or sugars to provide more flavor.

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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 09:49:24 -0400
From: rjsmith at mmdis01.hq.aflc.af.mil (Randy J. Smith)
Subject: Re: Use ice for cooling wort


On Wed, 19 Aug 92, C. Lyons said:

>   I re-read Charlie's 2nd edition book and have a few questions
> that I hope the HBD followers could answer.

> 1)  On page 367 of TNCJOHB, one of Charlie's tips includes:
> "Do not add ice to your wort in order to cool it."

> In the past I have found the addition of ice quickly brings the
> temperature of the wort to yeast pitching temperatures.  Could
> someone please explain the concern of using ice?

I'm not sure about ice in the wort, but I put my brew pot in a sink with ice
and rock salt.  From Chem 101 I remembered that ice and salt together will
give you a temperature well below 32F.  Something like 20F sticks in my head.
I can cool down a pot with 3 gallons of just-off-the-stove wort down to 70F
in about 20 minutes.

- --Randy Smith--

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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 13:47 GMT
From: Phillip Seitz <0004531571 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Bringing beer back from Europe

Brian Davis inquired about the risks of becoming a small-scale beer
importer (presumably for personal enjoyment rather than sale).  I can't
say that I've brought back cases and cases, but I have always brought
back as much beer as I can carry; last trip this was 29 bottles from
Belgium (in addition to 35 pounds of chocolate).

Duty: duties are levied as a percentage of the purchase price.  The
percentage varies depending on the item (i.e. 15% for vodka, 50% for
cognac--these numbers are made up, by the way).  What you need to do
if you are planning to bring back a lot is call the U.S. Customs
service and inquire about the duty on beer.  I did this when I went to
the Soviet Union (remember the Soviet Union?), but for obvious 
reasons didn't ask about beer.  This also means that you should save
your receipts, as you will need to document the actual value of the
stuff.  Beer you have received as a gift will also need to be
declared, and duty paid on that value.

But: I have never, ever paid duty.  (If there are any customs officials
on this net, please skip this paragraph.)  It is extremely rare taht 
returning Americans get their bags opened.  While this won't help you
if you've got an obscene amount of booze, you can certainly stash a 
great deal.  Moreover, the amount of work it takes to file the forms
for duty on a small quantity of beer makes this singularly unattractive.
For instance, on one trip I brought back a jereboam of Saison Regal
from the Brasserie de Bocq in Belgium.  This was my underseat carry-
on luggage, and hiding it was out of the question.  When I asked
the customs officer what I should do about it, he replied (and
I quote), "Get the hell out of here."  I love New York.  (By the
way, jereboams are available in many Belgian supermarkets and cost
about $15, depending on the exchange rate.)

Other considerations: I think your biggest problem would be making
sure your stuff isn't crushed in baggage.  To be honest, I'd suggest
you don't hassle yourself by trying to bring back so much.  The
exchange rate is lousy now, and all cases of bottles in Belgium 
require a stiff deposit.  If you're sufficiently confident of
your brewing skills, I think you should get 2-3 bottles of your
favorite beers plus lots of candi sugar (available in supermarkets)
and make your own with the yeast you culture.

This said, here's some beer info for Belgium.  The best beer store
I've seen so far is a small supermarket in Louvain-la-Neuve, which
is accessible by train from Brussels.  The store is names Cibex
(or is it Cidex?).  Anyway, LLN is a big college town, and Belgian
students' drinking habits make Texas A&M look like a ladies' charm
school.  Do check for pull dates on the bottles, though--I got an
extremely oxidised bottle of Saison Dupont there.  They stock some
of the Cantillon Beers, as well as Gueuze Giradin, which is about
as authentic as you can get (tastes like leather, straw, enteric,
you name it--great stuff!).  I can't recall whether it takes
credit cards.

I have a great fondness for the beers from the Bincheoise 
brewery, including Marie De Hongrie and Speciale Noel.  

Finally, be prepared to do a lot of looking, and try to do
so in out of the way places.  Many very interesting beers are
regional, and you'll only find them in local grocery stores.  And
if you DO decide to go the case route, I suggest you get down to
Rochefort and buy up a few cases of Rochefort 8.  This is one of
the great beers of Belgium, and will probably never be available 
here due to limited production.  I mean, if you're going to go
to all the trouble, you might as well get the best.

Brian, if you or anyone else wants more info, write me directly. 
When are you going, anyway?  I'll be in Belgium in mid-October.

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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 10:40:06 CDT
From: Michael J. Gerard <mjgerard at eng.auburn.edu>
Subject: more label the bottlecaps instead...
Full-Name: Michael J. Gerard

I use a "sharpie" pen to label the caps.
You can get at least two letters down.

For example:
PA=pale ale
SA=scotch ale
P=porter
B=bock
BA=belgium ale
W=wheat beer

I also try to use different color caps for
each batch (by buying bulk caps with every
other order) but I've found the cap
labeling much easier than putting on labels
or trying to guess through a brown bottle.

Mike

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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 11:04:31 EDT
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: Pre- or Post-boil Extraction Rate Measurement

Don't confuse extraction rate and specific gravity. It doesn't matter
whether you calculate your extraction rate before or after you boil.
Extraction rate is measured in units of points/pounds/gallons. When you
boil, you're changing the points _AND_ gallons. Your extraction number
should stay the same. Ten gallons of 1.024 wort boiled down to five
gallons should come out to 1.048, same extraction rate. 
24/X/10 = 48/X/5.

Carl

WISL,BM.


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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 11:20:47 EDT
From: bob at rsi.com (Bob Gorman)
Subject: Boiler Construction / Silver Solder

Al Richer <richer at desi.HQ.Ileaf.COM> writes;

> For the drain port, I drilled a hole to take a length of 3/8" copper
> tubing.  I then silver-soldered the copper into the hole, and then soldered
> a tubing to male pipe fitting connector onto the copper tubing.  ...
> 
> ... [silver solder] being 55/45 tin and silver.

First off, great post Al, I really enjoyed it.  Nothing better then using
an industrial approach to making things work. :-)

I was thinking of using the silver solder approach to adding an outlet
to a keg.  However, I boil my wort with a 160,000 BTU propane burner.
Obviously I don't want to put the outlet on the bottom of the keg, but
rather low down on the side.  So I guess my question is what's the melting
temperature of this silver solder?

I figure the side of the keg won't get much hotter then the boiling wort,
it should be under 300F.  And as long as the outlet and valve aren't in a
direct flame then there shouldn't be any concern with the solder melting
and the outlet springing a leak.  Could someone who knows what they're
talking about please substantiate or refute this claim?

Any constructive help would be appreciated.  Thanks!

- -- Bob Gorman                   bob at rsi.com           Watertown MA US --
- -- Relational Semantics, Inc    uunet!semantic!bob    +1 617 926 0979 --

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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 8:57:06 PDT
From: winter at cirrus.com (Keith Winter)
Subject: Dry hopping and clarity...


In HBD 953, Chris Karras writes:

>I dry hopped a Liberty Ale tastealike (I hope) with 1 oz. of Cascade pellets
>in the secondary. The pellets pretty rapidly expanded to form an inch-thick
>layer on top of the beer. If I shake the carboy they fall into suspension, but
>eventually float to the top again. Now that fermentation activity has slowed
>considerably, I think it is about time to bottle, BUT even when the hops are
>all at the top of the carboy the beer is very cloudy. Here are the questions:
>(i) does dry hopping tend to make beer cloudy, or should I look elsewhere for
>my problem and (ii) how do I bottle this beer without getting the hops in the
>bottles?

I just kegged my first dry-hopped batch (pale ale) and had exactly the same
experience.  I've made the exact same recipe before without dry-hopping and
did not have any trouble with it clearing.  It has been in the keg for two 
weeks and it _still_ hasn't cleared so I guess it's going to stay that way.  
It tastes fine so I'm not worrying...

BTW, transferring to the keg wasn't any trouble.  I wrapped a hop bag around
the end of the bottling wand (with orange cap attached) and didn't have much
trouble with clogging.  I had to occasionally shake the wand to get the hops
off the bag.

	Keith Winter (winter at cirrus.com)


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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 12:29:47 -0400
From: cd651 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Wally L. Blume)
Subject: Grandfathers and beer



Here goes nothing...
 
Most (all)  of my limited  knowledge  of brewing has come from watching,
listening  and pestering  my grandfathers  whenever possible. One is now
gone and the  other  recently had a stroke at the age of 76 and has lost
most of his  ability  to speak.  First a  little background. My paternal
grandfather  was born  raised  and died  in the mountains  of  southwest
West Virginia.  For  those who  aren't familiar  with  this  area, it is
very rural.  (Although  they are  no longer  used my grandfathers house,
which  my  grandmother   still lives  in,  has  an outhouse  and  a hand
operated well  pump  in the back  yard.).  This is a man who courted his
wife  on  horse  back.  My other  grandfather  was born  in Mississippi,
was raised  in Alabama,  and moved  to Georgia  to live from young adult
hood to today.  Since  I have  lived in close proximity to him all of my
life my brewing  is  more influenced  by  him. He  spent time in jail in
the  1950's  for  being  part of  a large  operation  involving  several
politicians  who ran  moonshine.  After  his short  time in jail he quit
the  moonshine  business  and  hasn't  made  any  since.  He (until  the
stroke) has  limited  his alcohol  making  to mostly  wine and  a little
beer.
 
My W.V. grandfather   always made  his beer the same way. I asked him if
he had ever  varied  his methods or changed his sugar amount to see what
happened,  he said he  had but  had found  that this  way worked for him
and he liked  the end  result.  He always used an extract, he brewed his
own beer because  where  he came  from that  was just about the only way
to get it  if you worked  in the  coal mines  on a small paycheck. Being
curious I  asked him about the extract and what they did before extracts
were available.  He  told me he couldn't remember when he couldn't go to
the mercantile  and get some. He said the big problem was always getting
the money  for all of  the sugar.  As I  said, to him brewing was not as
much a hobby  as it  was the way  to get affordable beer. His real hobby
was bottle  collecting,  and he  had a few  glass jars in his collection
that  once  held extract  many  decades ago.  One little  side  note, he
always added  about a tea cup of some liquid he used to mix himself that
he said made it work a little better. I never found out what the mixture
was, I asked  my grandmother   if she knew but she told me she was never
allowed near his beer (that's another story).
 
My Georgia  grandfather  was more  of a wine maker but occasionally made
some beer.  He always  made it  from scratch,  and  even growing his own
hops. He was  happy  to show me  the ways of brewing, however he refused
to teach me  the process  of changing  grain to wort before fermentation
since this  was very  similar  to the process  used  in making moonshine
and if he  told me once  he told  me a hundred  times  I didn't  need to
mess  around  with lightning.   He  did teach  me a  lot about  wine and
fermentation.  From  listening  to their  methods  I got the  impression
early on that  making  wine or brewing beer was more than just following
a recipe,  it takes  an understanding of the processes involved as well.

- --
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
   /   / __  /  /     |         Wally Blume         |"God does not play dice
  /   / _ / /  / /_/  |      Internet address:      |  with the universe."
 /_/_/ /_/ /  / __/   | cd651 at cleveland.freenet.edu | -- Albert Einstein

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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 12:22:46 -0500
From: smanastasi at mmm.com
Subject: 10 Step All Grain Process - Revised 


Thanks to all who helped by adding refinements to this.  I recieved almost 
as many requests for the final version as I did advice.  This 10 step process
for all grain brewing is ONE way of going about all grain - not THE right way.
Of course, all of us "new allgrainers" will soon discover THE right way.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
		       
		       
		       All Grain Brewing for Extract Brewers

New Equipment:
 - 5 (or 10) gallon cooler with a false bottom and improved 
  spigot system.
 - 10 gallon brew pot - preferrably stainless steel.
 - Immersion or counterflow wort chiller.
 - Grain mill (or access to one).

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

                        EASY 10 STEP ALL-GRAIN PROCEDURE

0. Prepare grains:  Crush grains such that each kernel is broken into several 
   parts but not flour-like.

1. Place grain in cooler:  Add 135F water and grain to cooler simulataneously 
   kneading the grain into the water.  All grain should be wet with no air 
   pockets.

2. Protein rest (optional):  Non highly-modified malts may required a protein 
   rest.  Let grain sit in 122F - 131F water for 30 minutes.  Protein rest is 
   required when using more than 40% wheat.

3. Starch conversion:  Elevate the temperature to 155F - 158F by adding 170F - 
   175F degree water.  Let sit for 1.5 to 2 hours.  Don't let the water 
   temperature drop below 150F.  Try not to exceed 32 oz of water per pound of 
   grain.

4. Mash out and Sparging:  Add near-boiling water to bring water temperature 
   up to 168F - 170F.  Let this sit for 10 minutes.  Set grain bed by slowly 
   drawing 1 - 2 gallons of wort.  Pour the wort back into the cooler.  
   Slowly draw wort out of the cooler while sprinkling 170F water (sparge)
   into the cooler.  Wort should be dispensed very slowly at about 3 to 7 
   minutes per gallon.  The water level should stay above the grains.  
   Continue until 5.5 to 7 gallons have been collected.  (Note:  Using a 
   10 gallon cooler allows for all sparge water to be added at once.)

5. The Boil:  Bring wort to a soft boil and add hops during boil as if doing 
   an extract brew.  

6. Chilling and cold-break:  Use a wort chiller to cool the wort to 70F 
   to 85F.  Proteins will coagulate and drop out of solution forming the 
   cold-break.

7. Transfer to fermentation vessel:  Siphon cooled wort off of cold-break and 
   into a carboy.  Wort should be allowed to airate as it enters the carboy.

8. Etc.:  Pitch yeast, dry hop, transfer to secondary, prime and bottle 
   as if doing an extract brew.
 
9. Enjoy:  Enjoy a far superior beer due to all sorts of "all-grain" 
   advantages well documented in the Homebrew Digest.


* - * - * - * - * 
  Steve Anastasi
  St. Paul, MN 



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Date:    Mon, 24 Aug 92 11:04 PDT
From: Paul AndersEn <ECZ5PGA at MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>
Subject: Large Gott thermos container as primary.

Hello homebrewers,
          I am new to the list, so you will have to forgive me if I bring up
a question that has already been hashed out a million times.
   Has anyone ever tried using the large Gott 5 gallon thermos-like containers
with a spigot on the bottom (commonly seen on the side lines at football games)
 as the primary carboy?  I am interested in scandinavian brewing techniques
(I am norwegian) which use a single bucket and a false bottom made of a wood
 grate topped with hay and juniper branches primarily.  The Gott container
seems like it would work well seeing as though it would keep all light out,
it already has a spigot at the bottom, and it is insulated.  I was thinking of
buying one (about 25 bucks), adding the false bottom and the float valve and
giving it a whirl.
   The possible problems I could see would be that the container is not large
enough for a 5 gallon batch, and that the plastic it is made out of is not
"brew-safe."   Any ideas of comments are appreciated.

Paul Andersen

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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 13:08:19 CDT
From: russo at carlos.sps.mot.com (Russell L. Oertel)
Subject: Bottle-cultured yeasts

I recently returned from a trip out of state (where I could actually
find liquor stores that had a decent selection of beer) with several
bottles that seemed to have some yeast sediment in them.  I've now
cultured the yeast, and was wondering if anyone could tell me something
about my new cultures.  For instance, I know that Sierra Nevada's yeast
is the same as Wyeast's Chico Ale; so, can anyone tell me anything about
the yeast used by Rogue (Portland, OR), Mendencino Brewing Company
(Hopland, CA), or Anderson Valley Brewing Company (Boonville, CA)?  Do
I now have 3 more cultures of Chico Ale or some other brand of Wyeast,
or do I have something more unique.  Any info will be appreciated.

While I'm posting, I might as well repost a question I asked on 
rec.food.drink a long time ago.  Has anyone out there ever heard of 
Oertel Beer?  Apparently it was fairly popular around Kentucky in the
50's (and possibly before).  I assume that it is no longer made, probably
having been bought out by Budmilloors.  (Gee, I hope they didn't buy out
the name - I might want to revive it some day!)

Russ Oertel              "Don't worry, Ma - I'll grow up some day... but it 
russo at carlos.sps.mot.com  probably won't be in my lifetime." - Sneaky Pete Rizzo

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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 13:38:17 -0600
From: craigman at casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Subject: Potato Dextrin Plates

hpeyerl at novatel.cuc.ab.ca (Herb Peyerl) writes:


>My homebrew supply store (The Vineyard, Calgary, Alberta) was having
>some problems with their Belgian Ale from Wyeast.   I went to a local
culture >media supply store and bought some Potato Dextrose plates
(pre-prepared and >sterilized)
>... It's in the secondary now and appears to be perfectly normal...
>
>Now, onto my questions:
>
>How long can I leave them in the fridge (they're stored upside down with
the >agar on top to alleviate moisture from dropping on the plate).

        The plates should no last very long (a few weeks at best, I
suspect).  For longer term storage, one should make up a small (12 oz) wort
in a bottle and pitch a little of your "purified" yeast into it.  Make sure
it has an airlock and chuck it in the fridge after it starts to get going. 
This should last up to 2 months or more.  For more technque, see Papazian's
Complete Joy...
        Option two is to take a "stab".  That is, use a sterile toothpick
and stab a little glump of yeast (yes, that gooey half-and-half stuff) and
place it in a small, preferably plastic 1 or 2 ml container of 15%
glycerol.  This should keep in your home freezer for several months.  If
you work with a -70C freezer at work, it should last almost indefinitely.

>Is there any easy way to tell how pure of a strain I got? 

        Try swishing the yeasty liquid around when you first put it on the
plate.  This (if your active cells are dilute enough) should set up
single-celled colonies.  Yeast will have more of a rubbery appearance
(don't try to bounce it or anything) than will bacteria.  It will also
smell like yeast.  Bacteria will stink to high heaven.  If your culture is
diluted and spread properly before you start growing the plate, you can
pick and choose the colony you'd like to grow up.

>Is it valid to use Potato Dextrose for culturing?
        
        Can't say I've tried it before, but if you are growing yeast with
it, it sounds valid to me.  I make my own plates with 15g agar and 40g malt
x-tract per litre of media.

>Should I be super sterile? (ie: I have access to a class 100 clean room
>in which they normally do wire-bonding onto dies.) Should I bother with
>the clean room and masks/rubber gloves?

        The question here is, do the class 100 clean room
supervisors/owners really want potential yeast/bacterial contamination?  I
sure wouldn't risk the job security.  All this work can be done in a clean,
draft-free room without much chance of airborne contaminants (though if
you're a heavy panter, a mask might be a good idea).  If you do get 'em,
heck, you can still pick out and purify your colonies, right?

good luck,
LizardArm

craigman at casbah.acns.nwu.edu (craig anderson)


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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 14:48 EST
From: SSIEGLER at LANDO.HNS.COM
Subject: Re: Chillers and Bernoulli (Uncle!)


	Ok. As I wrote In HBD #953:
                                                                     
> As I understand it, as air is forced thru increasing smaller tubes 
> the rate of flow increases, and the temperature drops.             
> (etc.)

	So my thinking was a little off.

Steve (steved at longs.lance.colostate.edu) answers:

>It probably would if water was an ideal gas (compressible).  The equation 
>of interest is: PV = nRT ...
>...This does not happen with 
>liquid water because it is essentially incompressible.  Maybe freon 
>or ammonia would be a better fluid.  Actually, I think someone else 
>already thought of trying those.  :-)                               

Cush (cush at msc.edu) answers:
>It is true that when gas *expands* from a high pressure to a low pressure 
>it cools, but this is different from fluid sucked through a tube.

and,
Scott (scojam at Auto-Trol.COM), you're not wrong, Im just dumb
(ps congrats on soloing!)

However: Frank(fmayhar at mpd.tandem.com) answers:
>But the idea of using smaller tubes is still okay, within limits.  You're
>trying to get the most efficient surface-to-volume ratio.

So, if one were to use, say 10 mini tubes (the space and throughput that,
say, one large tube would yield) would that provide more surface area for
cooling?  Since the water would flow faster, more cool water would be in 
contact with the (copper) tube [I'm thinking here of the "Skin Effect" that
is associated with wire (that electricity flows along the outside of the
wire)]?

Maybe I should just stick to something I know about.
[would anybody know what that is? :-)]

 -Stuart Siegler
"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there aren't people out to get you"

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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 14:25 CDT
From: Tracy Waldon <TWALDON at macc.wisc.edu>
Subject: Vit C, breweries, Kraeusening

On the topic of ascorbic acid (vitamin C):
 
    I recalled reading that it was not very effective as an anti-oxidant.
I went back and checked and Fix's _Principles of Brewing Science_ discusses
its use. The gist is that it might help limit certain oxidation reactions
when used in large enough quantities (>300 ppm). It will not help stop
other oxidation reactions. The bad news is that it may actually cause
oxidation in some instances (in the presence of iron is one instance).
So the question is unanswered. This seems to be the perfect opportunity
for some enterprising brewer to do a little home experimentation by
deliberately introducing oxygen at bottling into bottles of the same
beer (perferably something light) some of which contain acorbic acid
and some of which don't. I suggest a blind taste test. I'll leave this
as an exercise for someone.
 
 
On the topic of historical breweries:
 
John Wiehn writes:
>I've had a patron to my library ask if I could find a list of breweries of
>Connecticut which were in exsistance prior to 1918 (pre-prohibition). Can
>anyone help with this list????????
 
I thought some others might also find this book interesting.
 
                           _American Breweries_
                                     by Donald Bull
                                        Manfred Friedrich
                                        Robert Gottschalk
 
                       published by Bullworks
                                    P.O. Box 106
                                    Trumbull, CT  06611
 
                                    (C) 1984
 
                       ISBN 0-9601190-6-X
 
There is very little detail other than the city in which the brewery was
located, the name of the brewery, and the dates of operation. However it
is interesting to see how common breweries were in the 19th century,
and also how competitive the market was.
 
 
And now for my question:
 
I have decided to begin kraeusening my beer rather than using corn sugar.
Noonan gives a table detailing the amount of wort to add depending upon
the degree of carbonation desired. I have been unable to find anything
which suggests appropriate carbonation levels for various styles of beer.
If anyone knows of a source for this info please let me know. Also if
you know of the formula for calculating the amount of gyle to add in order
to get the various degrees of carbonation I would be interested since
Noonan's table is not terribly complete. And as we all know, the world is
not linear
 
 
T

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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 13:51:05 MDT
From: resch at craycos.com (David Resch)
Subject: Belgian Candy Sugar

A while back, someone here (or in rec.crafts.brewing) mentioned a source for
the Belgian candy sugar used in some types of Belgian Ales.  I didn't keep a 
copy of the posting and now a friend of mine would like to get his hands on 
some for a beer he is making.  If anyone could give me the source (email is 
fine) I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

Dave

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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 18:53:47 EDT
From: Pierre Jelenc at cunixf.cc.columbia.edu
Subject: B-Brite

In HBD # 953, Bob Gorman asks about B-Brite ingredients.

"Sodium percarbonate" is the common name of a molecular compound of
sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide, that for practical purposes
behaves like hydrogen peroxide itself. True sodium percarbonate
(Na2CO4) does exist, but it is rare, and is not an industrial chemical.

Sodium silicate is used to stabilize "sodium percarbonate" (it is
typically 0.6% of the total), but has no cleansing or disinfecting
properties of its own.

Sodium perborate in non-chlorine Clorox is another "active oxygen"
compound, this time truly the salt of a peracid.

Peracids and peroxides all act similarly, by oxidizing organic materials,
especially proteins in the case of sanitizers.

Pierre




Pierre Jelenc                        pcj1 at cunixf.cc.columbia.edu 
                                    Columbia University, New York

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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 92 18:32:06 -0700
From: Dave Gilbert <solomon!dave at yoda.eecs.wsu.edu>
Subject: Bottle sanitation??

Hi, I am a relative newcomer to this hobby and I have a question
for all of the great people in this forum.

How do you sanitize your bottles?

Currently I fill all my bottles with a bleach solution the morning 
before I bottle and then rise them with hot tap water before filling.
But, I am starting to wonder about the safety of having unboiled/
untreated tap water involved in any portion of my procedure. 

BTW I'd like to take this time to thank everyone on this list for all
of the information and entertainment that you have provided me for
most of the past year.

Dave Gilbert


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Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 23:51 EDT
From: PGRAHAME%BENTLEY.BITNET at mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: Any sociologists out there?

In HBD 953, Pat Lasswell says, "I have noticed (and others have as well)
that a disproportionate number of brewers have beards and moustaches;
any sociologists out there?"
Yes, Pat, there are sociologists out here, and some of them have beards,
etc., too.  But I'm not sure what your point is.  Is there something
sociologists are supposed to know that, say, barbers (or brewers!) don't
know?  And, supposing the issue here is a quantitative one, what would the
right number of brewers having beards and moustaches be?
I'm not convinced that facial hair and enthusiasm for brewing are causally
related, but am willing to hear other views on this.
Cheers, Peter   pgrahame at bentley.bitnet

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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 8:29:00 GMT
From: ccsmcs at cd4380.ufh.ac.za (Mark Stobbs)
Subject: What's happening?

Hi

Is anyone else getting multiple copies of the homebrew posting. I am getting
10 or more copies of each days issue.

Help

Regards
Mark
- -- 
                _________________________________________
               |  Mark Stobbs    ccsmcs at cd4380.ufh.ac.za |
               |          Computer Centre                |
               |  University of Fort Hare, South Africa  | 
               |_________________________________________|

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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 08:28 EDT
From: KIERAN O'CONNOR <OCONNOR%SNYCORVA.bitnet at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: "Natural Carbonation" and Siphons

RE: Two questions in yesterday's HBD:

1) I went to Anheuser-Busch's Baldwinsville Brewery last year for a
tour. I think the "natural carbonation"is captured carbonation from
the primary fermentation. Breweries try to cut costs at all corners,
and this is one. In fatc the Zip City BrewPub in NYC uses its wort
chiller water for the next boil, if I'm not mistaken (Yes, Steve
Russell?)

2) Siphoning: An easy way provided to me by my friend Dwight Beebe:
use a funnel on the end of the siphon hose which the siphon hose will
not go through. SUck on the poited end of the funnell, and then as it
is flowing, remove the funnell and place the hose in the carboy(girl).
Dwight actually uses a valve type thing which attaches to the hose,
but I lost he one he gave me. No need for drills, water, pumps or
anytihng else. And your mouth doesnt touch the hose.

FLame on (god, I know its coming)

Kieran O'Connor

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Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 08:48:04 EDT
From: envkas at sn634.utica.ge.com
Subject: manifold for cooler mashing

>To Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu,

I too use a cooler for mashing and sparging...  My manifold is made of
rigid 1/2 in copper tubing connected with fittings at the corners.  The trick
I use is not to solder the fittings (no lead in my beer please) so that
when I am done, the whole contraption can be taken apart, cleaned and
stored with ease.  Here is an ASCII version of the setup...

          /   flush tube to clean out manifold before sparging
         /
        /
   e--t-t-t--e    -
   |  |   |  |       | = 1/2 in rigid copper tubes w/ slots in bottom of cooler
   |  |   |  |       T = 1/2 by 3/8 t fitting
   |  |   |  |       e = 1/2 in elbows
   |  |   |  |       t = 1/2 in t fitting
   |  |   |  |       - = short pieces of rigid copper tubing to space long tubes
   e--t-T-t--e    -
        |
        |      3/8 in clear plastic drain tube thru end of cooler

The flush tube runs vertically up the end of the cooler and has a cap on it
during the mash stage.  When I am ready to start sparging, I run about a gal
of 170 F H2O thru the flush tube until the run off is clear.  The run off is
then recycled onto the top of the cooler to filter back thru the mash.  

This flush idea came from Brewing Lager Beer by G. Noonan.  I adapted it to the
cooler manifold concept and have been very happy with the outcome.  I have also
been very happy with the decoction mash techniques he describes in the book.
Does anyone else have comments on the decoction method???

Karl Sweitzer

envkas at sn610.utica.ge.com       (315) 793-7696

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Date: 	Tue, 25 Aug 1992 05:50:20 PDT
From: wegeng.henr801c at xerox.com
Subject: Re: Beer Concentrate

This discussion about brewing concentrated beer is interesting.  When I first
started homebrewing (a few years ago), I wrote letters to several breweries
(including AB, but not Coors) asking questions about their brewing process.
All of the breweries replied, though some didn`t give many details.  AB sent me
a nice brochure, which among other things mentioned that they brew concentrated
beer and then add carbonated water at bottling time to both bring the beer to
the desired strength and to add carbonation.  The wording of the brochure
indicated that they were very proud of this *efficient* use of their brewing
facilities.

Sounds like the only real difference between AB and Coors is that Coors ships
their beer to Virginia before diluting it.

/Don
wegeng.henr801c at xerox.com

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Date: 25 Aug 92 08:01:00 EST
From: "PAUL EDWARDS" <8260PE at INDINPLS.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: carbonation, beer concentrate

In HBD 954, Michael J. Gerard writes: 

>I saw an ad on TV the other day for Budweiser.  In
>the ad it claimed that bud was "naturally carbonated".

>This does not make any sense to me.  If it was primed
>there would be sediment and the bottles (or cans)
>would require aging.

Natural carbonation can take place in a variety of ways and during different
times in the process.  From what I've been told at a couple of breweries, the
"naturally carbonated" claim is made because the brewery captures the CO2 that
is released during fermentation, compresses the gas and injects it back into the
beer via a carbonating stone.  Another method of acheiving natural carbonation
is to conduct the final portion of the fermentation in a closed pressure vessel
and let the carbonation build up.  Some cylindro-conical fermenters are designed
to hold the pressure, and have an adjustable pressure relief valve (Micro-Mat is
one brand) attached. The beer is then filtered under pressure and packaged.  The
latter method is used by some microbreweries I'm familiar with.  This is
basically "bottle conditioning" in a rather large bottle.  Rather than adding
priming sugar or gyle, the beer is fermented to a predetermined SG and then
bunged off. 

Bottles with yeast sediment are "bottle conditioned", a subset of natural
carbonation, if you will.


On the subject of "Beer Concentrate" discussed previously by Jack S. and Arthur
Delano:  During a tour of the Hudepohl Brewery in Cincinnati, the brewer told
the tour group I was in that they, like many other large breweries, employ a
method of high-gravity brewing in order to get more beer from their equipment.
Basically, they brew *and* ferment at at higher gravity and then dilute with
carbonated water to finished product gravity at the time the beer is packaged.
This would allow them to get, say, 1200 bbls from a 1000 bbl system.  The brewer
wouldn't say what the dilution level really  was, tho.  

  -- Paul

"Life is too short to drink cheap beer"


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #955, 08/26/92