FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  None ("Michael Blongewicz")
  sparge correction (Russ Gelinas)
  Extract rates? What's reasonable? (Jim White)
  Recommended Pubs in Denver (Justin Seiferth)
  Re: Peracetic acid ("ROBERT W. HOSTETLER")
  Dopple Bock yeast suggestions? (Eugene Zimmerman)
  Length of time in keg vs. bottle (Martin Wilde)
  Mashing Unmalted Wheat (Roy Rudebusch)
  RIMS  (Tom Strasser)
  NEW ORLEANS BREWPUB AND MICROS ("Jay Hoyt")
  Gummed Labels for Laserwriters! (Lou Casagrande)
  Re: Bubblegum ester? (korz)
  August Schell Weizen (Lance Encell)
  Re:Bubblegum ester? (whg)
  INTERNET (Jack Schmidling)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Dec 92 17:29:18 U
From: "Michael Blongewicz" <esri!mailgate.noname!mblongewicz at uunet.UU.NET>
Subject: None

                       Subject:                               Time:5:17 PM
  OFFICE MEMO          None                                   Date:12/18/92
To whom it may concern:

Please include me in your mailing of the Homebrew Digest.  My address is
mblongewicz at esri.

Thank you

Michael



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Date:    Mon, 21 Dec 1992 9:26:33 -0500 (EST)
From: R_GELINAS at UNHH.UNH.EDU (Russ Gelinas)
Subject: sparge correction

  The concept was correct, but I had things backwards.  "Step" sparging,
ie. adding/draining in steps, or "continuous" sparging, ie. continuously
adding and draining, will result in the sparge becoming increasingly
*higher* in pH, not lower as I stated.  The result is as I said: more 
tannins will be extracted with these methods than with "batch" sparging, 
ie. adding all the water at once, and draining it all off at once.

   An easy way to remember is that water is generally less acidic than
wort.  So adding water to wort will increase the pH (decrease the acidity).

   Perhaps I should change my terminology also.  A "normal" sparge is
not really done in steps; more often it is done in a way to produce
a continuous outflow.  So how about "Continuous" for the first two
types mentioned above, and "Batch" for the third type?

  In summary: 
          Continuous Sparge - higher efficiency, higher tannin extraction
          Batch Sparge      - lower efficiency, lower tannin extraction

  Thanks to Al and Larry for pointing out the inconsistancies.

Russ

PS. I'm also dismayed by Zymurgy's lack of usefulness.  6 or 8 good
articles in a year (if that) does not warrant *my* $25.  With their new 
binding and layout, I wonder if they're putting the emphasis on appearance
rather than substance...

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Date:    Mon, 21 Dec 92 10:07:09 EST
From: Jim White <JWHITE at MAINE.maine.edu>
Subject: Extract rates? What's reasonable?

Is there a 'reasonable' extract rate? If so, what is it?

My last attempt to calculate my extract rate, led me to believe I'm not
doing a great job extracting the 'goodies' from my malt. Here's the
scenerio.....

10# of M&F 2 row Pale Grain Malt
1/2# M&F Crystal (sorry don't know the Lovibond).
Mashed in 3 U.S. gals.
Sparged with a little over 3 U.S. gals at 180 F.
Crushed with Corona Grain Mill.

I used about a 1 1/2 hour Infusion mash at 152F, (fell to 149F by the end).

For 5 U.S. gallons, this yielded on O.G. of 1.042. I had expected a higher
O.G. out of this, whaddayathink? I don't know the details of my water, like
hardness/softness/ph etc.

Possibilities

1) Everything's copacetic, don't change a thing.
2) Cruch is too coarse. This is a possibilty. I note some uncrushed grains, but
   also some powder.
3) Water's too hard/soft/acidic/alkaline.


Jim White

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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 8:18:16 MST
From: seiferth at rufous.cs.unm.edu (Justin Seiferth)
Subject: Recommended Pubs in Denver

I'm going to Denver over the holiday.  Any recommended brew pubs
there?

Thanks...
seiferth at rufous.cs.unm.edu or
seiferth at lyra.plk.af.mil


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Date: 21 Dec 92 10:50:00 EST
From: "ROBERT W. HOSTETLER" <8220RWH at indy.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: Peracetic acid


>From: joseph at joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us (Joseph Nathan Hall)
>Subject: Peracetic acid

>) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 11:41 CST
>) From: korz at iepubj.att.com
>) Subject: Iodophor and plastics
>) 
>) I would really prefer to use Peracetic acid
>) because I know that both Chlorine and Iodine are not the best things to
>) dump down the drain.  Peracetic acid is made from acetic acid and hydrogen
>) peroxide both of which are much more friendly to mother nature than
>) Cl and I.  I'm still in the process of finding a suitable supplier.

>Umm, what concentration of this fragrant stuff is required to do the
>trick?

>Why, you learn about new sanitizers every day here on HBD!  Gummit,
>I'm going to have to go out and buy a textbook to stay out in front
>of the pack.  :-)

>Now, the drawback of peracetic acid is that it will cost you something
>like $100 for 3/4 lb.  And, of course, it can't be shipped by UPS.

Why bother buying it? There's a thread in my Firearms list where someone
advocates mixing equal parts of vinegar (acetic acid) and drugstore hydrogen
peroxide in a plastic mustard bottle, plugging a gun barrel on one end, and then
filling the barrel with the mixture to clean out lead fouling. The writer the 
went on to state that the mixture will dissolve  completely  a .38 unjacketed 
slug overnight, and won't faze glass, steel, or ceramics.

I suspect if you can unfoul gun barrels with the homemade stuff, you can 
disinfect homebrewing equipment very easily.


Bob Hostetler				8220rwh at indy.navy.mil


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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 10:53:36 CST
From: Eugene Zimmerman <ezimmerm at hp.uwsuper.edu>
Subject: Dopple Bock yeast suggestions?

Salutations!
   I will soon be embarking on a journey of brewing I have not yet tried. I
will attempt to brew a Dopplebock. I think I can work out the 'ator' name my
self but was wondering if any of you could help me with the yeast selection
as this will be my first lager. I'm attempting a dark bock with 12 lbs malt
extract, 6 dark and 6 amber. 1/2 of each 40L crystal, toasted malt (going to
roast it) and 350L Choc. malt. My hops are Halt., I was goin to use tettanger
also, but my supplier ran out and substituted Bullion. Is this also ok? Anyway,
I'm thinking of culturing a starter from a wyeast strain. Any suggestions 
would be great. Thanks! 

Gene in Duluth


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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 17:57:20 GMT
From: Martin Wilde <martin at gamma.intel.com>
Subject: Length of time in keg vs. bottle

Whenever I force carbonate a keg of beer, the beer generally lasts about
2 months before the flavor begins to deteriorate.  However when I bottle
the beer using priming sugar as a carbonater, it can last up to 9 months
before the flavor goes south.  

I know having the beer sit on the yeast cake helps "preserve" the beer
better.  If I started using priming sugar in my keg to "naturally" carbonate
will this make a difference and thus allow my kegged beer to last longer?

thanks


Martin Wilde                 |  So many beers...
martin at gamma.hf.intel.com    |  So little time...
uunet!intelhf!gamma!martin   |

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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 08:17:00 -0500
From: roy.rudebusch at travel.com (Roy Rudebusch)
Subject: Mashing Unmalted Wheat

From: roy.rudebusch at travel.com


NN:>> I have one question concerning belgian beers that use wheat
NN:>> in addition to barley malt.  Michael Jackson says that they
NN:>> use (if I remember right) 40 or 50 % unmalted wheat.  Now I
NN:>> wonder how do they mash it.

1) Boil the crushed raw soft (winter) wheat to gelatinize.

2) Add to a stiff 2-row mash for conversion. This malt has oodles of
enzymes -- more than enough to convert its weight in adjuncts.

 * OLX 2.2 * Is a half hour of begging considered foreplay?
                                                           

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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 13:43:05 EST
From: strasser at raj3.tn.cornell.edu (Tom Strasser)
Subject: RIMS 

} From: umehara at NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (M. Umehara)
} Subject: Recirculating Infusion Mashing System
}
}       I'm looking for information on several topics.  The first is
} the recirculating infusion mashing system (RIMS) in the last special
} issue of Zymurgy and I am thinking of building one.  :-\  Has anyone out
} there built, used or seen one?  
	I built one from an previous article Rodney Morris wrote for the
Maltose Falcons (LA, CA) newsletter.  I have been using it for a year
and a half, and am quite satisfied with the system.  It gives very
easy, sensitive, temperature control over the mash.  There were a couple
of minor mistakes in the article I made the system from, however I
believe these have been corrected in the latest Zymurgy article.  It
takes a motivated person to get through the construction of one of
these, but when finished I think it is worthwhile.  

An observation on my part though...
	The heating elements recommended are capable of scorching the
liquid of the mash as it is heated during recirculation.  This is
mostly a problem in mashes where wheat makes up a substantial
portion of the grist (> 50%).  It appears that something in the liquor
(possibly proteins, as they are abundant in such mashes) sticks to the
heating element, and eventually scorches, leaving a residual burnt
flavor in the wort (which is not pleasant, as other burnt or smokey
flavors can be).  This problem has been mentioned regarding non-RIMS
systems as well, where someone (Jeff Frane?) reported wheat mashes
scorching on a heating element in direct contact with a wheat mash.
	The previous problem can be minimized by using lower heat density
elements and maximizing the recirculation rate.  I only pay special
attention during a wheat beer mash, where I typically will use boiling
water rather than the heater to raise the temperature of the mash.
Other than this, I must say I have been very happy, and would recommend
the RIMS to those ambitious enough to build one.

} ... Also, I purchased the counter-pressure
} filler from Fox and it works terribly.  :-c  How well do the others work?
} (ie. Melvico and Benjamin Machine Products)  
	There has been some negative press here regarding the Foxx
filler, where apparently the large number of valves which require
excessive turning are a problem.  I use one from DeFalcos which is all
stainless steel & uses a single valve to control two input sources (CO2,
beer) and it only requires only 1/4 turn either way to go from no flow to
fully open.  I recommend this model highly.
	That being said, counter pressure filling is a somewhat
complicated process, where your problems may be arising from a source
other than your filler.  So if you could me more specific as to what you
problem is, your problem may be solved without a new filler.
 
} ... And, I've kegged beer
} several times and I can't seem to get them to carbonate naturally and
} have to force carbonate them.  Although they taste fine, why won't
} they carbonate naturally?  :-t
	You likely are not getting a good seal on your kegs after
priming them.  To check this, after sealing the keg, tip the keg on it's
side while you are finishing your cleanup.  After you are done, check
the sealed areas on the keg, and see if any beer has leaked out.  If
there are leaks (which are common) you should use your CO2 tank to put
added pressure in the head space until the seal test is passed (typically
5-15 psi).  It is likely good practice to do this with all your kegs,
it's up to you.  This is almost certainly the problem with carbonation, as
otherwise it would indicate no fermentation was occuring to carbonate
the beer, the result of a weak or absent yeast.  
	That being said I must say I now almost always artificially
carbonate my beers in a keg.  The reason being the control you have over
the finished beer.  When I started kegging I thought that forced
carbonation was a shortcut which reduced the quality of the final beer.
However with experience I can tell you that some of my best beers have
been force carbonated, and the control you get by this process is
invaluble.

Auf ein neues,

Tom Strasser...strasser at raj5.tn.cornell.edu...strasser at crnlmsc2.bitnet


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Date: 21 Dec 92 14:04:02 GMT
From: "Jay Hoyt" <CCMAIL.HOYTJ1 at TSOD.lmig.com>
Subject: NEW ORLEANS BREWPUB AND MICROS

          IN REFERENCE TO MICROS AND BREWPUBS IN NEW ORLEANS....THE CRESCENT
          CITY BREWHOUSE IS LOCATED IN THE FRENCH QUARTER, NOT FAR FROM
          BOURBON STREET.  IT HAS GOOD BREW AND GOOD FOOD, REASONABLY PRICED
          (BY COMPARISON WITH BOURBON STREET).  LOCAL BEERS I WOULD RECOMMEND
          ARE ABITA (GOLDEN, AMBER AND TURBO DOG) AND DIXIE BLACKENED VOODOO.
          IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR FUN, YOU WILL FIND IT IN NEW ORLEANS.

          PS.  THE ABITA BREWERY IS IN ABITA SPRINGS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF
          THE LAKE.  THE BRIDGE ACROSS IT IS 29 MILES LONG, DOWN THE CENTER
          OF THE LAKE.


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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 17:09:54 EST
From: casagran at gdstech.grumman.com (Lou Casagrande)
Subject: Gummed Labels for Laserwriters!

Steve Jacobs has finally provided me with the definitive answer for
which I was looking:

SJ> I purchased a package of 25 pre-gummed, water-based adhesive
sheets
SJ> of 8 1/2" X 11" paper specifically designed for making labels. 
SJ> 
SJ> The package states that it is photocopier safe (although they do
SJ> not guarantee compatibility with all brands of photocopiers). 
SJ> 
SJ> I bought mine for $3.99 from: 
SJ> 
SJ> 	Brew America 
SJ> 	138 Church Street N.E. Suite F 
SJ> 	Vienna Virginia 22180 
SJ> 	
SJ> 	(703) 938-4805

I called them, and spoke to the owner, Miles. He confirmed this, and
expressed happy amusement at the free advertising that this digest and
other computer bbds offer. They do not yet have a catalog, but one is
in the offing for this Spring. BTW, the sheets are unperforated, so
you can create labels of any size up to 8 1/2 x 11, and they come in
pink, green, blue, yellow, and white. I'm sure Miles won't mind
getting a few more calls, especially if they are orders ;-).

Happy brewing, and happy holidays!

Lou Casagrande

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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 16:34 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: Bubblegum ester?

Roy writes (quoting JNH):
>JNH:>What is the stuff used to flavor bubblegum that is prominent in the
>JNH:>bouquet of some Belgian brews?
>
>Potassium sorbate. Also used in children's toothpaste, cheep sweet wine.
>Once you get acclimated to it, you can taste it lots of things.
>
>I was once given a sample of "Canadian Spring water" in a grocery store,
>"naturally sweetened with fruit juice", the lady said as I supped.
>YUK! -- *big* Potassium Sorbate - at least 1000 ppm.
>The taste stayed on my palate for a full hour.
>
>If that is what is being used in some Belgium brews,  "tis a shame".

I can assure you that Potassium Sorbate `tis not what gives Orval it's
bubblegum ester!  I've successfully generated that ester with nothing
other than re-cultured Orval dregs and a few pounds of malt extract!

The answer, in my opinion, to JNH's question is: "THE YEAST," but I thought
that the chemical name of the ester is what was requested, which is why
I did not respond originally.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 20:52:52 CST
From: lencell at unmc.edu (Lance Encell)
Subject: August Schell Weizen

The other day I ordered a beer at the "Dubliner" in Omaha, NE.  It was a really
great tasting beer.  After a few sips, however... i noticed that the beer had
a strong aroma.  I finally realized it reminded me of juicy fruit gum.  Does
this mean anything to anyone, w/respect to hops or spices that might be 
responsible for this smell.  Thanks for any responses, and try this beer-
It's very good!

See ya,

Lance

by the way, if you're reading this Jon, hope the trip's going well.  Merry
Christmas!! Say hello to Ann for me.  See you soon.

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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 10:39:33 CST
From: whg at tellabs.com
Subject: Re:Bubblegum ester?


>
>Potassium sorbate. Also used in children's toothpaste, cheep sweet wine.
>Once you get acclimated to it, you can taste it lots of things.

>If that is what is being used in some Belgium brews,  "tis a shame".


  It's unlikely that Potassium sorbate is added to Belgian brews.  It's just
a characteristic ester prodduced by the yeast strains.  I brewed up a 
triple recently (and I can asure you there's no Potassium sorbate) with
a ton of the bubble gum ester.  This is fading nicely into the background
leaving a wonderfully complex brew. :-)

Walt

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Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 23:59 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: INTERNET

 
 To: Home Brew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 The following information is in response to a discussion currently taking 
 place in rec.crafts.brewing, the Usenet homebrew forum.  It is provided with 
 the intent of expanding the access of the homebrew community to computer 
 networking.  It is in no way intended to disparage or offer competition to 
 any other network, private or commercial.  It simply provides one more 
 option.
 
 I am not a computer geek so if what I say is incorrect, it is close enough to 
 get an understanding of what is going on and how to get in.
 
 Usenet is a user maintained network that supports what ammounts to an 
 international BBS with over 1000 "Newsgroups" that cover everything from 
 kinky sex to homebrewing.  It is connected by Unix based systems that exist 
 at just about every university in the country/world? and many private 
 companies including AT&T where it was originally developed.  In addition, 
 there are also private entrepreneurs who set up Public Access Unix sites and 
 provide access to anyone with a modem willing to pay a nominal subscription 
 "contribution" and abide by the minimal rules.   Subscriptions range from 
 free to $100 per year and there are no other charges aside from the phone 
 call.  I you are fortunate enough to have a PA site in your local area, it is 
 virtually free.
 
 Depending on whom you believe, there are between 500,000 and 3,000,000 
 participants on Usenet, from all over the world.
 
 PA Unix sites also have access to email via Internet.  Subscribers can send 
 and receive mail from/to Compuserve, Genie and MCI.  Again, the only charge 
 is the yearly "contribution" and the phone call to the site.  There is also a 
 gateway to Fidonet, another national user supported network with an active 
 homebrew forum.   The Home Brew Digest can be recieved either directly 
 through email or read in the r.c.b. newsgroup on Usenet.
 
 The only trick is to find the nearest Public Access Unix site and get 
 together with the sysop.
 
 There is a news group "pubnet.nixpub" which is a complete list of PA sites 
 but is too long to post here.  The person who maintains it will send it to 
 anyone who asks for it.
 
 The list is available from:
 --
 Phil Eschallier                                 Bux Technical Services
  Inet: phil at bts.com                             P.O. Box 110
  UUCP: ...!{dsinc|gvls1|widener}!jabber!phil    Doylestown, PA  18901
                                                 +1 215 348 9721
 
 To get the list, email to:   phil at bts.com
 
 That is the format for Internet mail.  My address on Internet looks like:     
           
                  arf at ddsw1.mcs.com
 
 If I want to send mail to myself at Compuserve, from Internet,
 I would use  71543.1175 at compuserve.com
 
 For Compuserve numbers, the comma is simply changed to a period and the site 
 and domain address follows the  at .  ddsw1 is the name of the site I use.  
 There are a half dozen in Chicago to choose from.
 
 Ask Phil for the Nix Pub "Short List".  This contains enough info to find out 
 if there is one in your area and a phone number.  The long list has lots more 
 details.  There are ways of getting it automatically but I do not know how to 
 do it.  If he gets too many requests, I guess I will hear from him.
 
 Any questions, just ask.  However, I will answer via Internet... It's FREE.
 
 js
 
 
 
 

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1038, 12/22/92