FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  MALTMILLs - kegging pressures ("Anton Verhulst")
  Request for reading material/suppliers (Ford Prefect)
  Belgian Malts: Pils -vs- ale ("William A Kitch")
  The Mills (Nick Zentena)
  Wyeast 3068 Bavarian Wheat Source (Chris Pencis)
  Re: Dry-Hopping & Bitterness (Jeff Frane)
  Grain Mill comparisons (David Hinz)
  summer brewing (Jonathan G Knight)
  Hop growing (SCHREMPP_MIKE/HP4200_42)
  Re: Downloading files from sierra.stanford.edu  ("Stephen Hansen")
  Re: A Few Observations (Douglas DeMers)
  Spruce Beer (Darren Aaberge)
  Trappist temp (Tim LaBerge)
  Hangovers & acetaminophen (Derrick Pohl)
  Hot Cave Creek Beer, Microbrews (sbsgrad)
  commericals, bleach disinfectant. (Garrett Hildebrand)
  Binghampton, NY (Glenn Raudins)
  Iodine's Staying Power (Mike Lemons)
  Lambic Tasting III in Portland (Michael Sharp)
  Foaming/Flat Kegged Beer (Darin Jackson)
  Protein rest (Bryan L. Gros)
  Anheuser-Busch buys Sierra Nevada (Rick Garvin)
  Headhunters brewing club meeting (far west Chicago 'burbs) (Phillip J. Birmingham)
  NJ Brepubs, Filters (Gary S. Kuyat)
  Mead recipe request (Ron Schieffer)
  Zymurgy Skunk Article (Barry_Gillott)
  Warner's Extractions / Advertising on the Net (Timothy J. Dalton)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 11:23:05 EDT
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: MALTMILLs - kegging pressures


I'm a VERY satisfied Maltmill owner.  A recent HBDer mentioned
the desire of motorizing his MM.  If you brew 20 gallon batches
this might be a good idea but for 5 gallon batches, why bother.
The MM is very fast (much faster than the Corona) and besides, 
rocks are going to damage the rollers if you motorize it.  When 
you hand crank you stop instantly when a pebble is encountered and
no damage occurs. For large motorized batches, an occasional roller
replacement might be a hit that you're willing to take.

Setting the MM adjustment with a feeler gauge to get consistent
results is a very good idea.  However, instead of meauring the spacing 
at the center of the roller I would suggest taking the measurement at 
the adjustable end of the roller instead for increased accuracy. 
Remember that only one end adjusts and the other end is fixed.

As for the small MM hopper capacity, this is the mill's only fault. Making
a larger hopper is easy but I think that a mill of this caliber should
have at least a hopper that can comfortably take 5 pounds of grain.

On another subject, a letter in "Brewing Techniques" stated that a keg
saturated with 12 psi CO2 at 40F would contain 2.5 volumes (medium carbonation)
of CO2.  Can some one tell me that the pressure would have to be at 70F to
contain the same 2.5 volumes?

- --Tony Verhulst

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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 08:24:56 -0700
From: sag5004 at yak.ca.boeing.com (Ford Prefect)
Subject: Request for reading material/suppliers

I am interested in finding some information about how to design a small scale
brew house (1-3bbl (1 bbl is ~ 33 US gallons?)  I am really interested in 
information about desired geometry. eg. is a boiler about as tall as it is
wide?  what is the ideal... Ideally I would be able to build a system
that would be flexible enough to make 1bbl batches as well as 2.  I
have looked around Seattle a little, and a local shop carries a nice
2bbl system, but he wants $23.5K.  Also information about people that could
provide various vessels in a small range would be nice too.

Sorry for straying from the homebrew end of things, but I know there are a 
few out there that have large systems.

Thanks,

stuart galt                          boeing computer services
sag5004 at yak.boeing.com               bellvue washington
(206) 865-3764                       or home (206) 361-0190
#include <standard/disclaim.h>
I don't know what they say, they don't know what I say...

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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 09:45:15 CST  
From: "William A Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Belgian Malts: Pils -vs- ale

A few weeks ago I did my first partial mash and made my best pale ale
ever.  So I'm jumping right into my first all grain batch.  I could
use a bit of advice from y'all.

In his book _Belgian Ales_, Pierre Rajotte implies that that the basic
malt used for most Belgian ales is a pils malt not an pale ale malt.
I recall him writing that the pale ale malts are used for British ale
contract brewed in Belgium.  However, his recipes simply say "pale malt".
Any way, I'm going for a Belgium double with the following recipe for
5 gals.
  9 lbs Belgian Pils malt
  2 lbs Belgian special-B malt
  1/2 lb glucose
  1/2 lb Piloncillo (Mexican brown sugar)
  7 HBUs Bitter Hops
  1/2 oz American Saaz finishing hops
  OG 1.065 (I hope)
  Chimay yeast

Any comments would be appreciated.  My specific questions are:
   1)  Should I do a protien rest esp. considering I'm using a Pils malt?
   2)  Will I have DMS problems from the Pils malt?  If so how do I
       minimize them?
   3)  I want some malt flavor in the finished beer.  What temp should
       I use for sacrification (sp?)?

Sante'  WAK

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Date: 	Tue, 22 Jun 1993 11:20:24 -0400
From: Nick Zentena <zen%hophead at CANREM.COM>
Subject: The Mills

>Date: Sun, 20 Jun 93 07:50 CDT
>From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
>Subject: Business opportunity, Devils
 
 >From: Nick Zentena <zen%hophead at canrem.com>
 
 >       If you've never seen it {Philmil} then your post sure sounds
         like FUD! Why don't you ask someone who has seen
         both mills to compare? Na that would have cut down
         on your chance to advertise.-(
 
> I don't think that was called for.  My post was based on published data.

        Which part? Asking that you not criticize a product
        you had not seen or asking that an impartial person
        compare both?
 

        I haven't seen any published data on the Philmil. If
        it's out there I apologize. But the fact remains you
        cannot be considered an impartial person when it
        comes to either mill. All the reports I've seen in
        the digest have been quite favourable of the mill.
        Including one from one of your customers stating the
        crush was better. What does this mean? Nothing yet.
        If your mill is truly better I'm sure that people
        will decide that. But for you to rip a competitors
        product won't help.

 
> BTW, what's a FUD?

        Fear and uncertainity. There is no need to discuss
        the merits of a product if you can scare away your
        competitors customers.

        Nick

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I drink Beer I don't collect cute bottles!
zen%hophead at canrem.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 10:45:19 CDT
From: chips at coleslaw.me.utexas.edu (Chris Pencis)
Subject: Wyeast 3068 Bavarian Wheat Source

I recently visited a supplier here in Austin who carries the Bavarian
Wyeast mentioned by Jeff Frane and Jeff Griffin.  She says that it is
single strain - I tried a bit of a wheat that had been made with the
yeast and it was very nice...(I'll probably try it sometime soon) I dont
have the palate to go into details, but the point is I know where you
can get it if you want it .... let me know.
			Good luck and good beer,
						 
						Chris

======================================================================
|Chris Pencis 				chips at coleslaw.mer.utexas.edu|
|University of Texas at Austin		Robotics Research Group	     |
======================================================================

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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 09:28:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: Dry-Hopping & Bitterness

Mark Garetz says:

> No.  IBUs are *roughly* equivalent to the milligrams/liter of isomerized
> alpha acids in beer.  The alpha acids are responsible for the bitterness
> in the beer.  The oils from the hops are responsible for the hop character
> and aroma in the beer.  Hop character is imparted by late additions of
> hops in the kettle and/or by steeping hops while the wort cools.  Some hop
> aroam is also imparted by this, but it is a totally different aroma than
> you get with dry hopping.  The aroma imparted by dry hopping resembles the
> aroma of the fresh hops.  But no bitterness is imparted by the hop oils,
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> whether added directly as an oil, or by adding hops late in the boil or by
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> dry hopping.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^

I would hope that by this, Mark is not saying that NO bitterness is
imparted by late or very late hop additions.  This is simply not true.
One of the few concrete lessons I learned from a short course at UC
Davis was that even steeping hops cold imparts some bitterness.  During
the course we tasted a variety of beers put together by the regular
brewing students, including one in which the ONLY hop addition was a
dry-hopping of Cascades.  There was a very distinct, albeit low,
bitterness contribution.

I also take issue with Mark's assertion that dry-hopping produces a
_different_ hop aroma than late kettle additions.  Dry-hopping certainly
produces more aroma per ounce of hops added, but I have never
experienced or observed anything like the phenomenon Mark describes.  I
hope this isn't taken as a flame, but judging from the bio in the latest
Zymurgy, Mark's experience level as a brewer is not great enough to be
making blanket assertions like this.

=================================================================

Tony Johnston complains:

> 
> Let's be polite here in our criticisms, and lets leave the advertising
> to the pages of Zymurgy, etc.  If you find something so nifty-difty that
> you've gotta tell or you'll burst, why not just describe it in generic
> terms, no specific copyrighted names, prices, ordering information, etc.
> and just [editor problem] private e-mail.  If I wanted commercials, I would
> watch TV !!!!!
> 
And in the very same Digest I commercialized the Sucker.  Oooh, bad
timing, Jeff.  I also seemed to imply in my commercial that the Sucker
was free.  Dumb.

At any rate, I offered the "commercial" because I thought it was a great
product; it would never have occurred to me to mention it vaguely and
then spend the next three days answering e-mail requesting more specific
information.  Sorry, Tony, I don't have the time!  I think it would have
been tacky for Russ to advertise here, and I respect the Digest
contributors like him who I know have useful items for sale and never
mention them here -- shows a lot of mature restraint.  But, frankly, if
someone invents a better mousetrap I want to know about it.

- --Jeff

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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 11:37:05 CDT
From: hinz at memphis.med.ge.com (David Hinz)
Subject: Grain Mill comparisons

In yesterday's HBD, Ed W. writes:

- ---

Our club did a comparison, using standard sieves, of the crush produced
by the Corona (properly adjusted), a MALTMILL (tm) (non-adjustable model),
and a Philmill prototype (properly adjusted).  The results differed rather
substantially from the MM sieve results posted here in May by George Fix,
but they tended to point to the PM as being somewhat superior. 

- ---

So, what's being said here, by a friend of Phil, is that the PhilMill is
marginally better, when at it's best, than a non-adjustable MaltMill.
No mention of what type of malt (standard size, that the non-adjustable
MM is set for, or big wheat malt, or what?), and so on.  

It looks like a case of running a test to get the desired results.  To use
an adjustable PhilMill, an adjustable Corona, and a fixed MaltMill on grain of
an unspecified size seems like the "experiment" was designed to come out with
skewed results.

For the record, I don't have a mill yet, but when I buy one it WILL be an
adjustable MaltMill (hi Jack!), unless something better comes along.  The
test results posted seem to indicate to me that the PhilMill needs help
from a faulty test to look better than MM, so apparently the PhilMill isn't
the answer.

If PhilMill is truly better, then posting the above test was more of a dis-
service to the product than anything else, as it has thrown doubt in at
least my mind as to it's quality.  Let's compare apples to apples, not
apples to kumquats.


Dave "Not buying it" Hinz


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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 11:30:48 cdt
From: Jonathan G Knight <KNIGHTJ at GRIN.EDU>
Subject: summer brewing


Brewsters,

I am wondering what people think about brewing in the summer, specifically 
regarding the increased danger of little airborn animals falling into your 
cooling beer.

I've only been brewing a couple of years.  Two summers ago I just didn't brew 
because of the heat - my house does not have central air, and the thought of 
subjecting everyone to thre or four gallons of boiling wort for on hour plus -
well, I'm not sure I would want to no matter how thristy I was and besides my 
wife would probably consider it grounds for divorce.  Last summer I was away, 
so brewing was a moot point.  However, last summer was unusually cool here, 
and although this summer seems to be warming up, we do occasionally get that 
nice cool evening that makes me think of all that beer in the basement that 
will be gone probably some time in August if I don't replenish the supply, 
stop having friends over, or somehow convince my wife that drinking is bad 
for her but not for me.

So, here is the question.  If windows are kept closed during the wort-cooling 
period and I am otherwise extra-careful with sanitation, is this enough 
protection, or if my windows have been open at all that day, should I 
"worry" about the increased risk of infection?  I should add that I do not 
have a wort chiller, but I have been using a pretty effective means of 
chilling which leaves the cooling wort exposed to air for maybe 30-45 
minutes; also, I use liquid yeast in a starter solution and get strong starts 
in less than six hours.

	
TIA as usual for any scientific data, empirical observations, or momilies.

Jonathan Knigh
t

Grinnell Iowa

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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 16:10:00 +0000
From: SCHREMPP_MIKE/HP4200_42 at hp-ptp.ptp.hp.com
Subject: Hop growing

This is my second year for hop growing. I have one Cascade and one Tettnenger.
Last year the Cascade went wild and the Tett was a "runt". This year, the same
thing is happening. I think the Tett is just a slow growing plant. Any others
out there with the same experience?

As far as calculating the alpha acid content, I started with the typical content
published in TCJOHB, then threw in an extra handful just to be sure. The beer
turned out a little too bitter, so this year I'll stick with the published
numbers. Anyone out there (like HopTech) have a curve of alpha acid content
as a function of "ripeness" of the hops. ie: how important is it to not be a
week early or a week late on the harvest.



On malt mills: I'm personally tired of the calims and counter-claims, factoid
vs factoid, petty bullshit, cry baby, mine's bigger than your's, wanna bet,
(tm), hocus pocus flim-flam. I don't see how we can stop it, but I sure am
tired of it. Why don't you folks (and you ALL know who you are) give us a
break?


Mike Schrempp
freelance beer crafter

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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 10:09:26 -0700
From: "Stephen Hansen" <hansen at gloworm.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Downloading files from sierra.stanford.edu 

In HBD 1167 "Peter Just" <Peter.Just at williams.edu> writes:
> Forgive me if this an ignorant question, but:
> I have twice downloaded files via ftp from the /pub/homebrew directories
> of the sierra.stanford.edu server, specifically cats_meow.2ed.ps.Z.
> I take it from the extensions that this is a PostScript file that has
> been compressed with PKZIP.  Yet when I try to unzip the file, PKUNZIP
> (2.04g) tells me the file I have is probably not a .zip file.  What am I
> doing wrong?  How can I get hold of these files?

The following is from the archive's index file.

  Files with a .Z suffix are compressed with the "compress" program.
  To uncompress the .Z files, you'll need the "uncompress" program.
  If your system does not have "uncompress" there is a version
  available in pub/sources as 'compress.shar' (or via listserv by
  "get sources compress.shar").
    
  Files with a .zip suffix are "zipped" with PKZIP or something
  compatible.  You'll need the equivalent to "unzip" them.
   
  Files with the .uu suffix are uuencoded binary files.  They are
  usually files that have been compressed or zipped (e.g. *.Z.uu, or
  *.zip.uu).  You will need the 'uudecode' program, available in
  pub/sources as 'uudecode.c' (or via listserv by "get sources uudecode.c").
   
  Files with the .ps extension are PostScript files.

I hope that this helps.

Stephen E. Hansen
Homebrewer, Archivist

- --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
 Stephen E. Hansen - hansen at sierra.Stanford.EDU | "The church is near,
 Electrical Engineering Computer Facility       |  but the road is icy.
 Applied Electronics Laboratory, Room 218       |  The bar is far away,
 Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305-4055   |  but I will walk carefully."
 Phone: +1-415-723-1058   Fax: +1-415-725-7298  |      -- Russian Proverb
- --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 11:23 PDT
From: dougd at uts.amdahl.com (Douglas DeMers)
Subject: Re: A Few Observations

In  HOMEBREW Digest #1166, Martin Lodahl wrote: 

>Finally, Steven Zabarnick set off my alarm bells:
>>       ... During chilling
>> the kettle cover does not completely seal due to the
>> copper tubing; should I have used plastic wrap to keep out
>> the nasties?

>This has bothered me since my first batch using an immersion
>chiller, but I've never done anything more constructive than fit the
>lid on the best way I could, nor have I seen evidence of infection
>because of it.

I've always had a similar concern.  Here's what I do.

I use two fresh pieces of aluminum foil over the top of the kettle,
arranged in the following manner.  I set my chiller inlet/outlet tubing
so that they stick up in the middle of the kettle.  I put the first
piece of foil so that more than half of the kettle is covered, and hand
crimp the foil over the lip of the kettle.  I then put the second piece
of foil over the kettle and arrange it such that the edges overlap the
first piece and that there is sufficient "slack" to do some hand
crimping of the foil around the chiller tubes.  Crimp the edges of the
second sheet of foil around the kettle first, and then around the
chiller tubes to make the best seal possible.

Certainly it's not perfect, but it makes me feel a lot better than if
the kettle were open or partially covered by the lid.

Cheers!
- -- 
Douglas DeMers,      | (408-746-8546) | dougd at uts.amdahl.com
Amdahl Corporation   |                | {sun,uunet}!amdahl!dougd
  [It should be obvious that the opinions above are mine, not Amdahl's.]
  [               Amdahl makes computers, not beer.                    ]

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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 09:07:06 PDT
From: dra at jsc-ws.sharpwa.com (Darren Aaberge)
Subject: Spruce Beer

A couple of weeks ago I asked about how to use spruce in beer.  After getting
some helpful hints, I brewed a batch of spruce beer. The recipe I ended up with
is:

10 lbs american 2-row 
1/2 lb crystal 40l
1/3 lb chocolate malt
1 oz cascade hops (aa=7.6%, 60 min.)
1 pint fresh spruce growths (30 min.)
German Ale Yeast
OG = 1.052
FG = 1.010

I mashed all grains together and did a protien rest at 122 degrees for 30 
minutes and then mashed at 148-152 degrees for 1 hour.

I bottled the beer last weekend and was able to sample a couple of glasses.
You can definitely tell that there is something different about this beer,
but if I didn't know that there was spruce in it I probably would not be able
to guess that it was.  Also, Papazian says that spruce beer tastes something
like Pepsi, but I think that takes a big stretch of the imagination.  There is
no detectable hop flavor and very little bitterness in this beer.  Next time I 
brew this beer, I will probably increase the hops a little.  I think that I 
used the right amount of spruce.

One important lesson I learned is that the hops make a much better filter bed
than the spruce needles.  I brew in a keg with a copper manifold on the bottom
for draining.  Since I added the hops first, they settled first and made a 
nice filter bed.  During clean up, I noticed that after I removed the hops,
the needles kept clogging the copper manifold.

Here are some other things that may be of interest:

	Scott Stihler says that you can also dry "hop" with spruce.  He also
	says that he has frozen spruce growths to use latter, but the flavor
	diminishes a little, so you need to use a little more.

	Lisa St. Hilaire says she has also added white fir to spruce beer, 
	which has a tangerine-like aroma, but says to avoid using white spruce.

So, that is about all I know about spruce beer.  So far, it seems like a good
beer that is definitly worth brewing.

Darren Aaberge

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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 14:00:40 -0500 (UTC -05:00)
From: Tim LaBerge <LABERGE at kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Trappist temp

Hi all,
I'm contemplating brewing up a Trappist ale and was wondering what an
appropriate fermentation temperature would be.  I seem to recall that
"Trappist ales are fermented above 72F", but can anybody be more specific?
Thanks,
Tim LaBerge

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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 12:01:35 -0800
From: pohl at unixg.ubc.ca (Derrick Pohl)
Subject: Hangovers & acetaminophen

Phil writes:

>Derrick Pohl suggests taking a tab of Acetaminophen (the active ingred
>in Tylenol and several other similar products) as a pre-treatment
>for potential headaches.
>
>This is probably not wise.  One of the side-effects of acetaminophen
>is a certain degree of liver toxicity.  This toxic effect is especially
>emphasized when taken in conjunction with alcohol.

Acetaminophen, or any other drug, is indeed nothing to pop on a whim.  But
I didn't say take it before-hand for potential hangovers.  Only take it if
you really do have an established, wicked, morning-after head full of pain.
 All I would recommend by way of preventative, night-before precautions is
lots of water, don't drink on an empty stomach, and don't drink so darn
much (I usually manage to follow at least 2 out of these 3).  Cannabis, if
you're so inclined, can also be effective as a preventative.  Heck, it's a
panacaea - wear it, smoke it, write on it, cook with it.... (see alt.drugs
for more).

If you're waking up with raging hangovers often enough to have to start
worrying about the long-term toxicity of acetaminophen, it's possible that
you're drinking a little too much.  Look for other tell-tale signs such as
memory blackouts, mysterious unexplained bruises, missing items of
clothing, a compulsion to hide bottles in eavestroughs or behind the
furnace, getting fired from your job, or delerium tremens in the absence of
drink.  Any or all of these clues might mean you have a drinking problem
(other than the perennial problem of not brewing often enough).  For the
occasional over-indulgence, I doubt acetaminophen presents a serious risk,
but you could always take a.s.a (aspirin) instead which is also available
in a caffeine-codeine compound.

- -----
Derrick "Not hungover that often, really" Pohl
Vancouver


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Date:    Tue, 22 Jun 93 23:02:21 GMT
From: sbsgrad%sdph.span at Sdsc.Edu
Subject: Hot Cave Creek Beer, Microbrews

From: Steve Slade <sslade at ucsd.edu> 
Date sent:  22-JUN-1993 15:52:53 PT 

Hi all

I was heartened to learn someone else thought the Cave Creek Chili Beer was 
too hot to handle. I proudly brought some to my brother's house for 
Memorial Day as an example of an unusual microbrewed beer. My brother, my 
wife, and I all tried this at the same time. Now, we all like hot foods, 
but this was way too much! I couldn't taste anything for a good 30 minutes 
after taking one sip. Maybe I got one of these 6 month old six-packs. Do 
they come with date cades?

<downshift>

Our next vacation will take us to the Seattle area. Microbrewery heaven at 
last! We'll be taking a side trip from Bellvue, WA (sp?) to Beaverton, OR. Any 
suggestions out there for a nice place to have lunch and good beer near the 
half-way point?

TIA,

Steve Slade 
reply to: sbsgrad%sdph.span at sdsc.edu  or  sslade at ucsd.edu

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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 17:29:17 PDT
From: mdcsc!gdh at uunet.UU.NET (Garrett Hildebrand)
Subject: commericals, bleach disinfectant.

In HBD # 1167, Tony Johnston says,

>About flames and commercialism
>
>Let's be polite here in our criticisms, and lets leave the advertising
>to the pages of Zymurgy, etc.  If you find something so nifty-difty
that
>you've gotta tell or you'll burst, why not just describe it in generic
>terms, no specific copyrighted names, prices, ordering information,
etc.
>and just field the private e-mail.  If I wanted commercials, I would
>watch TV :( !!!!!
>
>Sensibly yours,
>
>Tony Johnston
>Tired Chemist, Inspired Homebrewer
>anthony at chemsun.chem.umn.edu

My two cents on this one: Not only do I read HBD to find out about the
mistakes that every one else is making (so I can avoid them :-) ); not
only do I read the HBD so I can try new recipies; not only do I read
the HBD to see old ideas put to new uses, and new ideas for old
problems,
but I also read the HBD to get data and opinions on products which I
might think about purchasing, and to hear about new things which are
offered.

I'd prefer to let people use the real name of products they have tried,
tested or given up on, and I prefer to hear about new offerings. So let
us not get too hasty about getting so generic that we might as well go
back to reading musty old textbooks and hyped-up advertisments which
only indicate how much money was spent on them.

On the other hand, some restraint, as has previously been voiced, is
nice. Infomercials and roastings we don't need.

More sterilization...
- ---------------------
In the same HBD, Kelly Jones responds to Paul Boor with the observation
that needles need to be, "PDS (pretty damn sterile)," while brewing
equipment need only be controlled for, "gross infections."

I note that Kelly states that the concentration of 4-16 tsp per gallon
is sufficient, and I work this out to be in the range of slightly over
one, and up to five, tablespoons per gallon (of bleach). I'll bet that
the range could be accounted for by adding the time factor, as was
suggested by George Fix in the same HBD.

I agree. Here is another data-point: at a local day-care center I saw
a sign posted at the sink which directed employees to clean all food
preparation surfaces with a sponge using a solution of one tablespoon
Chlorox per gallon. They just let the damp surfaces evaporate after
cleaning.

I personally use 1/3 cup per 5 gallons. That is around five tablespoons
(it is actually 5.3333 tablespoons). It seems to work well enough
without corroding either me or the equipment. However, I am looking
forward to the article mentioned by George Fix which is to appear in
Vol. 2 of BTW Brewing Techniques.

Lastly, for fun, in another peek at Kelly's post (or should that be,
"ripost?")...

>>        Think about it, but right now I gotta run out to the kitchen
>>to make sure my refrigerator light is still on.
>
>More importantly, does your airlock really bubble when you're not
>watching it?

Or listening to it?  ;-)

Garrett         <uunet!mdcsc!gdh>

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Date: Wed, 23 Jun 93 7:58:29 CDT
From: raudins at galt.b17d.ingr.com (Glenn Raudins)
Subject: Binghampton, NY

Re: Binghampton NY

I have a friend that will be moving to Binghampton, NY in the near future and
is interested in knowing about the beer selection, location of any brewing
stores, homebrew clubs, and cost of living in the area.  Any information
people have, please send to me via E-mail and I will forward the info to
him.

Re: Fruit Beers

In response to an older thread about any interesting fruit beers being made
in the industry.  My vote (for originality) would have to go to the Tied House
in Mountain View.  Their Passion Fruit beer is a new twist.  A good beer for
those who enjoy fruit beers.

Glenn Raudins
raudins at galt.b17d.ingr.com

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Date: Tue, 22 Jun 93 23:28:08 PDT
From: mikel at netlink.cts.com (Mike Lemons)
Subject: Iodine's Staying Power

I've recently started using iodophor sanitizer.  I've experienced severe
problems with the "staying power" of dilute iodine solutions.

I have some Blue Ridge iodine test paper that can be dipped into the
iodine solution to determine the ppm of free iodine.  I have found these
test papers to be essentially useless.  There are three gray circles on
the vial that are used to compare the color of the test strips.  The
circles are composed of widely spaced dots, like a newspaper photo, and
don't look very much like the color of the test strips after dipping in
iodophor solution.  The three circles correspond to 12.5, 25 and 50 ppm.
The 12.5 ppm circle is so faint that wetting the paper strips with pure
water will make them dark enough to match the circle.  Using the other
two circles, I cannot determine if a solution is closer to 25 or 50 ppm,
only that it is in that range somewhere.

I have determined that the amber color change caused by the iodine
itself is the best measure of how concentrated the sanitizing solution is.
I have used the test papers to verify that when a solution turns clear,
it is indeed free of iodine.

The first thing I did was to create a 12.5 ppm solution by mixing 5/8
tsp of iodophor solution with 1 gallon of water.  In two weeks it had
turned perfectly clear, just sitting in a closed glass bottle!

So I squirted some more iodophor into the bottle to take the
concentration into the 25 to 50 ppm range.  I have a clear plastic tub
with a spring-loaded plunger that squirts sanitizing solution up inside
of empty beer bottles.  After doing 2 or 3 six-packs, the solution will
turn totally clear.  (I just rechecked some of the beer bottles and they
look perfectly clean to me.)  It's a real pain to have to keep stopping
to look for a faint color change in your sanitizer to determine if it is
still working.  I don't think that dilute iodine solutions would last
very long in an airlock, either.

I used to be able to sanitize all of the bottles for a five gallon batch
with the same sanitizing solution when I used sulfites.  To determine if
the solution was still working, all you had to do was lean over it and
take a breath. The coughing and searing pain in your nasal passages left
no doubt as to its potency.  (Yes, I've heard the rumors that sulfites
are ineffective;  That's why I switched to iodine.)

How do chlorine users test the concentration of their solutions?

Where does the iodine go?  It can't evaporate because it's a solid at
room temperature.  Since I have to use higher than recommended
concentrations to get it to last through a few bottles, I'm wondering if
anyone has ever been able to taste iodine in finished beer? 

- --                    
INTERNET:  mikel at netlink.cts.com (Mike Lemons)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!mikel
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115

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Date: Wed, 23 Jun 93 9:08:31 PDT
From: sharp at cse.ogi.edu (Michael Sharp)
Subject: Lambic Tasting III in Portland

Attention Belgian beer lovers:

This year's AHA conference in Portland will be the site of
the third annual lambic tasting.  The tasting will be run
opposite the best of show judging so you won't miss any of
the talks or social gatherings.

The 'menu' includes beers such as Frank Boon's Kriek,Framboise,
Faro, and Gueuze, Cantillon Gueuze, Saison Dupont, Blanche de Brugge,
and Rodenbach.  I wouldn't be supprised if a homebrewed attempt
or two showed up too.

For more information on the tasting send e-mail to
        sharp at cse.ogi.edu

	--Mike

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Date: Wed, 23 Jun 93 09:11:37 PDT
From: djackson at wv.MENTORG.COM (Darin Jackson)
Subject: Foaming/Flat Kegged Beer

Hello all.

I recently purchased a kegging system and made my own beer chiller.
The chiller is 6' of 1/4" od copper tubing with 3/16" fittings on
either end to connect in from the line out of the keg and to the line
out to the cobra tap. I bent it into a shape that fits into my small
cooler I dedicated to the task and was proud as hell of my $6 portable
chiller. Well, I'm having foaming/flat beer problems.

Over the last 2 years I have collected HBD wisdom regarding this
phenomenon. This morning I read through it and my question was not
answered, so here it is. When I connected the chiller to the line,
I cut the 4' line connected to the cobra tap in half, half for the 
keg to chiller and half for the chiller to tap. I have 4' of 3/16 id
hose and 6' of approximately the same id copper total, but the "smooth"
part at the end by the tap is only 2'. I presume that there will be 
turbulence caused by the fittings from the copper to the hose. Is 2' 
enough to let the beer settle back down? I'm getting all head and almost
no carbonation in the beer. I have tried dispensing with the gas 
disconnected, with 12 lbs of gas, with 10 lbs of gas and with 7 lbs of 
gas. And, of course, I drank all of the flat beer.

All suggestions will be appreciated.

Darin
darin_jackson at mentorg.com


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Date: Wed, 23 Jun 93 10:47:09 PDT
From: bgros at sensitivity.berkeley.edu (Bryan L. Gros)
Subject: Protein rest

I generally make ales and do about a 10 min protein rest before
heating the mash up to mash temps.  I generally use 2-row from
Briess with maybe a little dextrine malt or wheat and I add
any other adjuncts with the mashout.

I bottled my last batch and the FG was about 1.009.  OG was
about 1.062.  Talk about attenuation.  One reason for the low
FG was that about 30% of the fermentables came from honey in
this batch.  (I used "raw, wild mesquite" honey hoping it would
not ferment completely and would leave a honey taste)  

The other thing I'm wondering about is the protein rest.  I
was going to use a cooler to mash in this time, so I added the
grains to some water so the result was a thick grist at 
about 53C.  I ran to the store with a friend and one thing led 
to another and I came back in about two hours.  The temp. had
dropped a good bit, of course, so I went back to a stove-top
mash  (would have needed a lot of boiling water at this point
to bring it up to 68C for mashing).  What happens during the 
protein rest?  If a lot of proteins were broken down or something,
then there went my body and thus, the low FG.

I will wait a couple of weeks and taste it to see how it is.

Thanks for any help.
                                    - Bryan

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Date: Wed, 23 Jun 93 11:21:16 EDT
From: rgarvin at btg.com (Rick Garvin)
Subject: Anheuser-Busch buys Sierra Nevada


I was at the brew-pub in progress Bardo in Arlington, VA on Monday night.
In speaking with Bill Stewart the owner (very wacky guy with bottle of Celis
White in his hand) he asked if I had heard the rumor that Anheuser-Busch
was in negotiations with Sierra Nevada Brewing Company for a take over.
What!? He said that this rumor was completely unsabstantiated but came
from someone in the industry.

I called SNBC today at 916-893-3520 and spoke with Peggy. She was surprised
that the rumor had gotten to Washington, DC but she had heard it. She said
that this was absolutely false. Now, our friends at the SEC do not like
companies to deny these things if it is true. So, I beleive her.

Thank You God.

On a bad note, we have been getting some bad Sierra Nevada products on the 
east coast. I was given a 6 pack of SN Porter from State Line Liquors in 
Northern MD that had a metallic flavor. I also bought a 6 pack of SN Pale Ale
in Alexandria, VA that had that exact flavor. Metallic flavors can have a 
number of causes (I am a AHA/HWBTA beer judge of 6 years) but I think that
what I am tasting is beer that has been held at very high temperatures for
long periods. Say, a railroad switch yard for 2 days in the sun. Now, this is
just a guess. I hope that it is not a fermentation or process fault. Comments?

Cheers, Rick

Rick Garvin rgarvin at btg.com
BTG, Inc. Navy Programs Division, Vienna, VA 703-761-6630

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Date:    Wed, 23 Jun 1993 13:45:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: BIRMINGHAM at FNE683.FNAL.GOV (Phillip J. Birmingham)
Subject: Headhunters brewing club meeting (far west Chicago 'burbs)


     Y'all be sure to come to the July Headhunters meeting. It'll be at seven
PM Friday, July 2 at Greg Lawrence's place, 4 S 245 Wiltshire Lane in Sugar
Grove IL. 

     Bring beer or wine, homemade or otherwise, and some sort of munchies,
homemade or otherwise. It should be fun.

     Call Greg at (708) 557-2523 for details.

                                                    Phillip

- --
Phillip J. Birmingham    birmingham at fne683.fnal.gov
BLOWOFF METHOD: brewing technique in which the brewer blows off bottling
until an empty fermenter is needed for the next batch.

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Date: Wed, 23 Jun 93 14:57:42 EDT"
From: Gary S. Kuyat <gsk at sagan.bellcore.com>
Subject: NJ Brepubs, Filters
Full-Name: Gary S. Kuyat

I wanted to give status on NJ's Brewpub legislation.  It passed the Assembly
unanamously!  The senate still hasn't voted on it, but with this kind of
response from the Assembly, I can't see how it will fail.  It turns out that
you really can't tell when the Assembly or Senate will vote on a given bill,
you just have to keep calling and asking.  I will post again when I have more
info.

On another subject: filters.  I was reading about some not-so-good results
with a so-called .5 micron filter.  I purchased such a filter from the 
Braukunst, a mail order place (for me anyway).  I want to start off by saying
that the owner was VERY decent about the troubles I had, and offered to refund
my money if I was dissatisfied.  I would recommend him for all his other
products but until he finds a new source for half micron filters, I would stay
away.

I finally gave up after trying 4 filter elements.  I ordered a similar kit
from the Filter Store+.  Their catalog shows the first element I used as 5
(that FIVE, not half) micron.  The new element looked very different, and was
rated at 99.99% efficiency.  I believe that the Braukunst got shipped 5s
instead of the .5s they ordered.

As I have said the owner of the Braukunst seemed to be TOTALLY HONEST and
never attempted to blame me (and if he'd tried, I probably would have
thought it was my fault!)  He assured me that .5 microns would produce a
crystal clear beer.  He was right!

With the new element, the American Light Ale I filtered was COMPLEATLY
haze FREE!  This was PERFECT!  It didn't seem to filter out any taste, except
a muddy, yeasty taste (probably from yeast!)  The Filter Store filters
were more expensive and the kit did not include disconnects for the keg.
I think the Braukunst is worth calling, but make sure to ask if they have
gotten new filter elements, from a different supplier. 

If you have any question about the filter element you're using, I'd say it
CAN'T be .5 microns.  The beer should be totally, UNCLOUDY.  Make sure to chill
it to serving temp or lower before you filter it to get out any chill haze.
- --
 -Gary Kuyat
  gsk at sagan.bellcore.com

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Date: Wed, 23 Jun 93 14:54:33 MST
From: schiefferr at postoffice.agcs.com (Ron Schieffer)
Subject: Mead recipe request

Anyone!

I have been searching the network in vane for a mead recipe using
grapes.  I have put a similar notice to this in the mead digest
but did not get any response.  I am hoping that there are more
mead brewing people lurking in this digest.  

If you do have a mead recipe using grapes, email the recipe
directly as I do not generally read the HBD on a consistent 
basis.  My grape plant is ready for picking (FLAME SEEDLESS)
and some are beginning to dry up on the vine.  I'd sure like
to do something better with them than just eat them :-) .

Your help is appreciated!
- -- 

- -- 
     Ron Schieffer  at  AG Communication Systems               .       
               schiefferr at agcs.com                  ._______|_______.
If you do good every day, you will go to the spirit       \(*)/      
world and see other good people on the other side.        o/ \o      
If not, you will not see them.      -Joe Flying Bye

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Date: Wed, 23 Jun 93 15:11:38 edt
From: Barry_Gillott at DGC.ceo.dg.com
Subject: Zymurgy Skunk Article

Message:
Greetings all!  I come to you for help.  The manager of my local beer
store is sincerely interested in my claim that fluorescent lights can
produce skunkiness in some beers.  I'd like him to read an article
that appeared in Zymurgy some years back.  I believe the year was 1989
or 1990, and the article was entitled something like, "Who Put The 
Skunk In My Beer?".
  The problem is, I threw the issue out long ago and my AHA 
membership expired.  I checked the local library and they weren't
much help.  It was unclear whether they'd do an inter-library loan
on a periodical, especially if I didn't know exactly which issue.
  Do any of you know the exact name of the article, and the exact date
of issue?  To really push my luck, would any of you be willing to fax
me the article?  I think it was around 4 or 5 pages.
  If there are any takers out there, please contact me via email at 
my return address or barry at wgn.ceo.dg.com .  Thanks very much.
  Barry



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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 07:33:01 -0400
From: Timothy J. Dalton <dalton at mtl.mit.edu>
Subject: Warner's Extractions / Advertising on the Net

Re: Eric Warner's Wheat beer book
Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu writes:

> Dennis Lewis writes:
>  >  I calculated the extract required from the grain recipes to
>  >  achieve the desired SG. In almost every recipe I came up with an
>  >  extraction of 40 pts/lb/gal!
> 
> Funny you should mention that.  I tried his "Isar Hefe Weizen" last
> night.  After coming up with a gravity closer to 1.045 than his
> 1.055, I did the same calculation, and got an overall expected
> extraction of 36.5 for his gravity.  I actually got about 30.  Maybe I
> should have sparged for 2 hours insted of 1!-)  Ah well, next time....
> (If I will ever spend the time required for that complex multi-step
> decoction recipe again!)

I found exactly the same thing a couple of weeks ago too.
I got curious about his numbers after making a batch of weissbier that
didn't come in to gravity specs (I usually get 29-31 pts/lb/gallon) and ended 
up quite a bit shy of Eric's numbers.

For my second batch (last weekend), I modified Eric's grain bill to
1) use what I had laying around the house and 2) use a realistic extraction
rate.

Eric Warner has a recipie for a winning weissbier published in Zymurgy from
last year.  I wonder what he gets for extraction on his 
5 or 10 gallon batches...

As for doing a double decoction mash to make weissbier, it seemed pretty 
easy to do. It was easier the second time and I'm sure it only
gets easier from here...

====

Re: mark at hoptech.com's advertising on HBD
pascal at netcom.com (Richard Childers) writes:

> Look, Mark. You work, if I recall correctly, out of Emeryville, on the 
> fringes of UC Berkeley, where programmers and users are as thick as grass. 
> Surely you have absorbed, by now, the understanding that advertising on the 
> Usenet, and through electronic media in general, is in bad taste.

I personally find Mark's posts on hops very informative.
Plus his announcement of 'new products' keeps us up to date on the latest
product offerings.  I like being aware of what is going on.
I have not seem any excessive use of the net in this case.

Maybe to appease you, a satisifed 3rd party should post about these things ?
But it seems to be an unnecessary step.
I guess in the end, the digest admin. has the final word.

Tim
- ----
Timothy J. Dalton                                   tjdalton at mit.edu
MIT, Dept. of Chemical Engineering, Materials Etching Technology Lab


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1169, 06/25/93