FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  What valve/pipe fitting for SS keg? (Bill Holman)
  Aquarium Pump Airation ala Brewing Techniques (Lee=A.=Menegoni)
  More Weizen Stuff (Jim Busch)
  Belgium Tripple (Jim Busch)
  High Gravity Brewing (Jim Busch)
  RE: (Mike Serafin)
  metallic tastes (Brian Bliss)
  Light extracts and "sparging" (Keith A. MacNeal HLO1-1/T09 DTN 225-6171  24-Jun-1993 1227)
  Re: Short Original Gravity (Bill Flowers)
  Brewtrip to Cally (CMACK)
  Chipotle Ale ("Michael Blongewicz")
  Raw wheat/Extra-light extract/Superbrau (korz)
  hbd startup (x-4378)" <Simpson at po2.rb.unisys.com>
  Crush-OfF, Filters (Jack Schmidling)
  Polypropylene (korz)
  Polypropylene correction... (korz)
  RE: Keg Tricks (mkenny )
  Help rescue my first batch! (J. Michael Diehl)
  Miller amber ale (Bill Vaughan)
  RE commercials & SCOTCH ALE request (Elaine)
  Wyeast 3068 ("Bob Jones")
  Cherry Brew? from Door County (Kevin Krueger)
  Belgian Malts: Pils -vs- ale (Rick Garvin)
  foaming/flat kegged beer (Cisco)
  Portland (Brian J Walter (Brewing Chemist))
  Re: Anheuser-Busch buys Sierra Nevada (Chuck Cox)
  Yeast culturing / Comments (Omega)
  HBD advertising (ghultin)
  oops wrong email address (Chris Pencis)
  DMS and PU (korz)
  Hop aroma, alapha acid questions (Mark Garetz)
  Re: Dry-Hopping & Bitterness (Jeff Frane)
  re: Wort Chilling (Darryl Richman)


Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU),
  then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! 
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
Archives are available via anonymous ftp from sierra.stanford.edu.
  (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via mail from
  listserv at sierra.stanford.edu. Send HELP as the body of a
  message to that address to receive listserver instructions.)
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 10:53:31 EDT
From: Bill Holman <jwh7k at uva.pcmail.virginia.edu>
Subject: What valve/pipe fitting for SS keg?


     After reading the HBD and rec.crafts.brewing for over a year, I have
seen many interesting brewing processes/equipment picked to pieces.  I must
say that the information gained by this process has been both enlightening
and helpful in improving my homebrews.  Many thanks for the quality
information found in this group!
     There is a topic that I have not seen picked apart yet, unless I missed
it from an earlier time.  What type of ball valve/pipe fittings can be used
for a drain on a SS 15.5 gallon keg?  What kind of metal can be used?  I
assume SS would be best, but what about brass or copper?  What is the best
inside diameter of the valve/pipe fitting?  How long should the pipe fitting
be?  How high up should the valve/pipe fitting be placed on the keg? 
Basicly, I would like some input on what kind and how to attach the
valve/pipe fitting to the keg.  After extended use, what has worked for you?
     Thanks and hop until you drop.
  
===========================================================================
  Bill Holman, Clinical Robotics Lab, jwh7k at virginia.edu, (804) 924-8109
  Box 168, UVa Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, VA, 22908
===========================================================================

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 09:35:57 EDT
From: Lee=A.=Menegoni at nectech.com
Subject: Aquarium Pump Airation ala Brewing Techniques

I would like to construct an airation unit similar to the one in Brewing
Techniques magazine.  The author of the article mentions using a charcoal
filter to remove rubber odors produced by the pump.  During a recent trip to
a department store I discoverd an array of pumps from $5 to $25 dollars but
could not find an in line fliter, the did have boxes of activated charcoal
so making on seems to be a minor issue.  My question what makes one pump 
better than another?  Given the short duty cycle required for brewing versus
in an aquarium, durability and noise would be the least of my concerns.  I
would be most interested in the pump that produces the least odor.  

Please post to the Net I have had problems with incoming mail.

RE:  Imperial stout that was too thin.  I suspect that the recipe published
was not identical to what was brewed, acommon problem with published recipes,
or the volume info was incorrect.
A beer with an og of 100 sg points * 5 gallons = 500 total sg points
500 sg points / 9 lbs DME = 55.5 sg pts / lb  no way do you get this from DME 
 
        70 sg points * 5 gallons = 350 total sg points
350 sg points / 9lbs DME = 38.8 sg pts / lb  this is more realistic DME yeild
The contribution of the . 5 lb barley and .5 lb specialty grain would be
minimal on total gravity.    

If you want 100 sg points from this recipe brew a 3.5 gallon batch
9 lbs DME * 38.88 sg pts/ lb = 350 sg pts
350 sg pts / 100 pts/gallon = 3.5 gallons

Any one have a good all grain Belgian Double recipe?

lmenegoni at nectech.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 11:15:12 EDT
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: More Weizen Stuff

Reading the last digest shows that summer is here and many of us are 
working hard on wheat beers.  Having just brewed yet another Weizen
broadly ala Warners Isar, and reading the posts, I thought I'd comment
on some of my latest frustrations with Wheat beers.  First some notes
on yesterdays material:

>From Rick Garvin:
<(5 gallons)*(55 SG pts)/(7.525 lbs grain)= 36.5 SG pts/lb.

<I never see 36.5 SG pts/lb with my equipment. I brewed a Hefe Weizen a la
<Warner on 31 May, 1993. Three weeks after brewing, six days after bottling
<this beer took first in a local informally judged "light" beer contest. I 
<was quite surprised that it was so well received. It even beat Jim Busch's 
<Weizen and Wit. I voted for Phil Seitz's Wit (I think). So, I am happy with 
<the quality of the advice found in Warner's book.

I never see this either.  The Weizen that Rick "beat out" (ouch!) only 
yielded just under 30 pts/lb.  I increased the pale malt and added a bit
of Munich and last nights yielded only 28.  Both batches were single decoction.
Erics book is certainly a great asset to brewers, and Eric notes that you 
should adjust all grain bills based on the performance of your system. Now,
if I can just figure out the performance of my system with wheat malt, *$!%.

FYI:
Hefe Weizen #123, 6/23/93:
59%   De Wolf - Cosyns Wheat Malt
38%   De Wolf - Cosyns Pils Malt  
 2.5% De Wolf - Cosyns Munich Malt
  .5% De Wolf - Cosyns Cara Pils Malt
13 IBU Hops, Whole Domestic Perle, 1/2 at start of boil, 1/4 at 60 minutes
1/4 Hersbruker Hallertau Pellets, 15 minutes to end
~21 oz Weihenstephan 66, Weizen Yeast
1/2 Tbls Gypsum in Sparge, 1/2 Tbls in mash
OG 12P

I use a shallow SS lauter tun, with a perforated sheet false bottom, and grain
bed depth of about 1 to 1.5 feet.  Lauters great.

A question for wheat brewers: what kind of grain mill do you use, and how far
(fine) do you grind the Wheat?  I am beginning to wonder if my extract loss
is due to not pulverising the wheat enough.  Pound for pound I should be 
getting a much higher extract from Wheat, and I dont. An equivelent Pale Ale
single infusion gives me at least 13P. 

Hey, Rick: You better bring that weizen to next months contest where we can 
have "BJCP certified judges" pick the real winner :-)!  I just hope they dont
allow Phil's Wit beer in the contest, the competition is getting too stiff 
around here!


Good weizen brewing,
Jim Busch






Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 11:16:11 EDT
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Belgium Tripple

Since my latest visit to Belgium last month, I am getting real anxious to brew
an authentic Belgium Tripple.  I though I would consult the HBD for any tips
or opinions on the matter. My goal is a simple one, reproduce Bruges Tripple.
I am aiming for 9-9.5% ABV, light pale color, warming alcohol presence but
not overtly evident alcohol. 

So for say 10 gallons:
Pils malt to result in an OG of ~18P (1.073/4)
5-6 lbs glucose/sugar/candi mix (is this close?)
~20-24 IBU Goldings/Saaz/hallertau/Perle/Liberty?
Yeast???? LaChouffe, Westmalle, Duvel? Suggestions excluding Wyeast Belgium :-)
A combination?  I would assume a fresh bottling yeast is required.

So all you high gravity pBelgium brewers out there, what do you think?

Good brewing,
Jim Busch



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 11:16:55 EDT
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: High Gravity Brewing

In an attempt to start a subject that I dont recall reading here in the fairly
recent timeframe I am asking for opinions on high gravity brewing.  What I 
mean by this is similar to what the big boys do: Brew a high gravity wort and
dilute with boiled/cooled water into the fermenter.  Now before you get all
upset that this is not the way to make "real" beer, let me point out that I
talked to a few brewmasters in the UK who did just this.  In particular, the
brewer from the Larkins Brewery (located in Kent, took a medal in last years
GBBF), told me he brews his ordinary bitter to an OG of 1.055 and dilutes it
down to 1.035 in the fermenter.  I realize one needs to take into account the
additional caramelization in the kettle with the increased sugar content, but
has anyone done much of this.  I am especially interested in the idea of 
brewing pale ales of OG 1.065-1.070 and adding water to result in a 1.055 
in the fermenter.  The entire fermentation would be at the lower gravity. An
obvious issue is the pH of the water pushing the wort toward the alkaline 
side, would the wort be able to buffer a 10-20% water charge?  Would typical 
Sierra Nevada ale yeast be able to work at a slightly more basic pH than a 
normal wort?  IT would seem to me that since kettle size is normally the 
limiting factor in batch size, this would be a great way to increase volume 
of finished product.  I am fortunate in that I oversized/over engineered my
lauter tun to accomadate high gravity brewing, so working with the extra 
grains is no problem.

Comments/experiances?

Good brewing,
Jim Busch


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 10:27:45 CDT
From: serafin at epcot.spdc.ti.com (Mike Serafin)
Subject: RE:

> From: KLIGERMAN at herlvx.rtpnc.epa.gov
> Subject: Lubbock, texas
> 
> Help!
> My wife is on work assignment in Lubbock,Texas and cannot find any good
> beer.  If anyone is familiar with the area and can suggest a good package
> store, restaurant, or other establishment, I will sent her the info. ASAP.
> Thanks-- reply by HBD or e-mail.
> Andy Kligerman

My condolences to your wife.  The best place to look for beer is the "Strip",
which is located on the Tahoka Hwy south of town, I don't remember the number
of the highway, but if you take I-27? south Loop 289, you'll be on the Tahoka
Hwy.  I checked out the stores there my last few trips to Lubbock and the
selection is pretty dismal.  They do have a few imports, but not many. This is
about the only place you can find package liquor/beer/wine there are a few
other stores around the outskirts, but they are harder to find. You won't find
any package liqour in the city itself.  I do not know of any restaurants or
bars that have a good selection of beer.  Try to stay away from the "strip"
Friday and Saturday evenings, the lines of cars going there can be a real pain
in the A.

By the way, tell your wife there really is LIFE after Lubbock.

Mike Serafin


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 10:55:18 -0500
From: bliss at pixel.convex.com (Brian Bliss)
Subject: metallic tastes


Michael Barre writes:

>I have finished my first batch, an Amber kit using Cascade hops and
>Superbrau malt extract from a supply shop here in New Orleans, and I am
>displeased with the results.  The beer is very sharp with a metallic
>aftertaste, almost like a canned beer that has been cold, warm, and cold
>again.  The shopkeeper tasted the beer and he says using liquid yeast
>instead of the dried (EDME brand) yeast, and pitching the yeast into
>cooler wort will take the bite out.  My wort was 90 degrees.

Sounds like chlorine and/or extra-hard water to me. 

Did you boil ALL the water used in the brew (before you added it),
and siphon off the precipitate?

bb



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 12:39:49 EDT
From: Keith A. MacNeal HLO1-1/T09 DTN 225-6171 24-Jun-1993 1227 <macneal at pate.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Light extracts and "sparging"


>Date: 21 Jun 93 07:05:11 EST
>From: "Anderso_A" <Anderso_A%55W3.CCBRIDGE.SEAE.mrouter at seaa.navsea.navy.mil>
>Subject: Light (Lovibond) Extract

>          I wish to make a beer with the lightest possible color as is
          possible with extract.  
>               What suggetions can you give me for both liquid extract
>          (preferrably unhopped) and DME?

>          TIA
>          Andy A

Andy, from my experience and comments from my local supplier, American Eagle 
seems to be the lightest extract (both dry and syrup) on the market.  Their 
amber DME seems to be the color of M&F et.al.'s light.

>Cyberspace is relatively free of throwaways ( barring bounced email ). Let's
>all keep it that way.


>- -- richard

>		richard childers, pascal at netcom.com

Seems to me you only helped the advertising cause by repeating the 
advertisement in it's entirety in an attempt to prove your point.

Speaking of Mark of Hoptech, I have a question about his recent Zymurgy 
article.  The article says that dry hopping with pellets will take longer than 
dry hopping with whole hops.  Why?  I would think the opposite would be true 
since the lipulin glands are probably ruptured during the pelletizing process.

>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 93 16:44 CDT
>From: korz at iepubj.att.com
>Subject: Re: Cooling extract wort


>It's not a waste of time in my opinion.  I'm a bit confused by your
>statement: "...after the boil, I would sparge the 1 1/2 gallons of hot
>wort..."  Sparging is the rinsing of grains with hot (170F or so) water
>to extract the sugars out of them.  

Charlie Papazian in TCJOH refers to the dumping of the wort through a strainer 
into the fermenter to remove the hops and any other particulates as sparging.  
This might be the source of the confusion.  He also recommends scooping out 
the specialty grains just prior to the wort coming to a boil.

Keith MacNeal
Digital Equipment Corp.
Hudson, MA

Return to table of contents


Date: 	Thu, 24 Jun 1993 14:16:37 -0400
From: Bill Flowers <waflowers at qnx.com>
Subject: Re: Short Original Gravity

In HBD #1168, Kevin Krueger wrote:

> The recipe stated an OG of ~1.1 and I reached ~1.07.  This recipe used
> d.m.e. (9#'s) and some specialty grains (1/2# each of chocolate and
> roasted barley) and 3 oz. of Williamette hops for boiling and some
> Cascade for finishing. ... Are there any other factors that would reduce
> my OG ?? 

I calculate that using that quantity of malt and grains to make 5 gallons
would give you an OG of 1.075.  However using the same quantity to make 4
gallons would be 1.095, close enough to the ~1.1 the recipe quoted.  And if
you made 14L (just shy of 4 gallons), you'd get 1.102.

Perhaps this recipe wasn't for a "standard" volume?
- ---
W.A. (Bill) Flowers                email: waflowers at qnx.com
QNX Software Systems, Ltd.         QUICS: bill     (613) 591-0934 (data)
(613) 591-0931 (voice)             mail:  175 Terrence Matthews
(613) 591-3579 (fax)                      Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8

Return to table of contents


Date: 24 Jun 1993 15:16:26 -0600 (CST)
From: CMACK at ssc.wisc.edu
Subject: Brewtrip to Cally


Hi!  I'm off to California for a week to visit my girlfriend's
family, and was hoping to make the most of the trip by trying
microbrews that aren't available on this side of the Mississippi.
Could those in the know suggest brewpubs/other fine establishments,
and beers that I just shouldn't miss?  I'll be in San Francisco
and San Diego in particular.  TIA,

Chris Mack
(CMACK at SSC.WISC.EDU)

Return to table of contents


Date: 24 Jun 93 13:04:45 U
From: "Michael Blongewicz" <esri!mailgate.boris!mblongewicz at uunet.UU.NET>
Subject: Chipotle Ale

                       Subject:                               Time:11:42 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          Chipotle Ale                           Date:6/24/93
In HBD 1176, Dale HIggs talks about a Northwest Brewery that has brewed a chili
beer with chipotles (that smoked and dried jalpeno).  The only northwest
brewery other than Blongewicz's Garage Brewery and Beer Joint (I'll get back to
that later) that has brewed a beer with chipotles, that I know of, is Rogue. 
Their beer is called Mexicali Rose.  In my garage brewery I used 2 oz of whole
or partially crushed chipotles in the last 15 minutes of the boil.  It came out
quite well I thought (must have been okay, everyone at the Uno de Mayo party
drank all 5 gallons of it).  And the warm smokey taste at the very end is just
right for drinking.  I've had Ed's also, and its good, for one or two, but not
much more after that.

Anyway if you want the detail on the Chipotle Ale, just ask

Michael
mblongewicz at esri.com  



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 14:07 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Raw wheat/Extra-light extract/Superbrau

I was just on the phone yesterday with a food industry wholesaler
regarding unmalted wheat.  I had read from Jean-Xavier Guinard's
book, Lambic, that the raw wheat that they use for lambieks is
soft, white, low-protein wheat.  Furthermore, he said that the
protein levels were typically 1.8 to 2.1 percent total dry weight.

Now, this did not go over well with the wholesaler -- their wheat
typically has 11 to 14% protein.  I looked up the protein levels
in DeWolf-Cosyns Wheat MALT and they were "10.61% total protein as is"
and "4.85% soluble protein."

Hmmm?  I don't think the protein levels could be that much lower in
unmalted wheat -- malting cannot CREATE proteins, can it?  I suspect
that somehow there was a mixup in the protein levels in Guinard's
otherwise spectacular book -- perhaps a misunderstanding by the
brewers?  Perhaps they were quoting soluble protein and less is
soluble before malting?  

In any event, the reason I really posted this was to point out that
the lambiek brewers are using SOFT, WHITE wheat not hard, red wheat.

Just a data point.

****************************
Andy writes:
I wish to make a beer with the lightest possible color as is possible
with extract.

I've found that the lightest of the extracts are Alexander's and
Munton & Fison Extra-Light.  Both are syrups.  I'd like to add that
I've never made a beer from all dry extract, so Light DME might be
even lighter, but I don't have any personal experiences to report.

***************************
Michael writes:
>I have finished my first batch, an Amber kit using Cascade hops and
>Superbrau malt extract from a supply shop here in New Orleans, and I am
>displeased with the results.  The beer is very sharp with a metallic
>aftertaste, almost like a canned beer that has been cold, warm, and cold
>again.  The shopkeeper tasted the beer and he says using liquid yeast
>instead of the dried (EDME brand) yeast, and pitching the yeast into
>cooler wort will take the bite out.  My wort was 90 degrees.

Most often, metallic tastes come from your water.  Not only iron is
responsible for these flavors, but also a lot of Calcium and Magnesium
salts in the wather can give your beer a metallic flavor.  Other
possible culprits are metallic pots and (for all-grain brewers) poorly
stored/old grain.  I don't think that the yeast would make that much
of a difference.

One other comment.  I have heard that Superbrau brand extracts have
a pretty high level of corn sugar in them.  I have not been able to
verify this from either of the two extract composition sources that
I have (from old Zymurgy articles).  I have brewed decent beer with
Superbrau in the past, but if indeed there is corn sugar added, I
would avoid the extract.  You see, malt extract costs between $2 and
$3 per pound.  Corn sugar (dextrose) costs about $.75 per pound.  So
if you're paying full price, you might as well get all malt and add
the sugar yourself if you want.

Al.

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 14:10:00 PDT
From: "SIMPSON, Mark (x-4378)" <Simpson at po2.rb.unisys.com>
Subject: hbd startup


Hi HBDPerson!
Could you please start a new subscription to "The Homebrew Digest" for me?
Thank you very much.
Mark

memmrs at rb.unisys.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 16:30 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Crush-OfF, Filters

 
 >From: WESTEMEIER at delphi.com
 
 >However, for those who require more hard data, Dan Listermann has told
 me that he will be bringing his set of standard analytical sieves to
 Portland with him, and will offer to conduct a "crush-off" with all
 comers.  Seeing the results first-hand should persuade any skeptics.
 
 Hmm...  Wasn't planning on going to Portland.  Hate to make the trip just to 
 keep him honest.  Any volunteers to take a brand new MM for the GREAT 
 CRUSH-OFF?  
 
 >From: pascal at netcom.com (Richard Childers)
 >Subject: filtering - mechanisms & tolerances
 
 >Incidentally, I'm not sure what the pore size of gas filters is, but it's
 probably pretty big....
 
 I  think you hit on the key.  There is no such thing as "pore size" on a 
 string wound filter and I think they amount to nothing more than a lick and a 
 promise and Jim Busch's comments seem to confirm my suspicion.  They appear 
 to be an attempt to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.
 
 js
 
 
 

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 16:05 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Polypropylene

Nir writes:
>I'm just back from the UK. The British seem not to mind using plastic in their
>homebrewing. They have a mashing aparatus made of a 20 lit polyproylene bucket

I suspect that it is Polyethylene (PE), not Polypropylene (PP).  I have yet to
see anything that's been made of PP that is food grade, so I suspect that it
is not food grade.  Since we're on the subject of Polypropylene and food
grade certification, if you buy yeast in plastic vials, check what kind of
plastic it is.  I've seen yeast sold in Polypropylene vials.

Al.

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jun 93 16:42 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Polypropylene correction...

Jim Busch's post reminded me of one instance of food-grade PP -- those
pleated PP filters.  Are you sure the spun ones are PP also?  In any
event, I looked around a lot and called a lot and could not find a PP
food-grade vial.  Why not HDPE, you ask?  Well, I wanted to autoclave
it -- PP is autoclavable as is PC (Polycarbonate -- also not food-grade).

I settled on glass vials with PP caps that have fiber/foil liners.

Al.

Return to table of contents


Date: 25 Jun 93 04:05:50 GMT
From: mkenny at bcm1g01.attmail.com (mkenny )
Subject: RE: Keg Tricks

In HBD1168 Sandy Cockerham writes:
>
>Does anyone have a neat trick for stabilizing a 3 gallon keg so you can
>tighten and untighten the fittings ?  I have not figured out how to work
>on them. The 5 gallons with the double handles are easy, but the 3 gallons
>have me stymied.

Try using the keg inertia.  Firmly attach your wrench and give the end of
it a good wack with a rubber mallot or such.  Filling the keg with water
will amplify this effect.  Just like the old jank the table cloth trick.

Cheers,
Mike Kenny


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 23:28:59 -0600 (MDT)
From: J. Michael Diehl <mdiehl at triton.unm.edu>
Subject: Help rescue my first batch!

Last sunday, I started my first batch, an extract.  I'm using a Laaglander 
Dutch Dark Beer kit.  But I think I'm in for some problems.

My initial Gravity was only 25; I was told to expect 45, on the scale that is.
I also expected a bit more vigorous bubbling.  I had times when it didn't buble
at all, other times it did pretty well.  Anyway, 2 days after pitching, My 
girlfriend and I tasted a bit of the wort.  It tasted like watered-down sour
grapejuice.  I figured that maybe I didn't stir it well enough so after 2 more 
days, I stired it up real good and took a gravity reading, a 20. It still tasted
the same, but I bet you could catch a buzz of it! ;^)  Now I suspect that all of
the yeast is dead.  What do I do now?  Thanx in advance.
+-----------------------+-----------------------------+---------+
| J. Michael Diehl ;-)  | I thought I was wrong once. | PGP KEY |
| mdiehl at triton.unm.edu |   But, I was mistaken.      |available|
| mike.diehl at fido.org   |                             | Ask Me! |
| (505) 299-2282        +-----------------------------+---------+
|                                                               |
+------"I'm just looking for the opportunity to be -------------+
|            Politically Incorrect!"   <Me>                     |
+--The family that brews together drinks together.  The family--+
|       that drinks together, stays together.  <Me>             +
+-----If codes are outlawed, only criminals wil have codes.-----+
+----Is Big Brother in your phone?  If you don't know, ask me---+
+Key fingerprint=D5 35 15 4A 06 F9 F0 34 D8 EE 74 73 5A F5 9D 1A+
+---------------------------------------------------------------+


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 01:34:22 PDT
From: bill at oilsystems.com (Bill Vaughan)
Subject: Miller amber ale

Well, I never thought I would be defending Miller (ick) but...

Dennis Lewis writes:
> This [Miller pamphlet] has got to be one of the most inane
  pieces of misinformation...
  
    from Miller: "the tradition of warm beer is a cultural oddity
    of England rather than a taste issue."
  ...This cultural oddity thing is unbelievable!!!

Belgian ale and altbier are both served much colder than English ale.
When I lived in Belgium, no one could believe I liked English ales --
they would all say "What! that flat, warm stuff!"  These were NOT
Americans talking -- they were Belgians, Dutch, Germans and one Swede.
Continental Europeans do not share the British taste for cask-conditioned
55 deg F ale.  (Nor do they share the American taste for ultra-cold beer.)


>   "Authentic ales differ from lagers... in several ways.  First, ale
     is made only from a special ale yeast.'
   I thought ale yeast was the common stuff and lager yeast the special one.

Gee, no doubt in my mind Americans would consider ale yeast special.  Sure
seems Wyeast considers it as special as their lager yeasts, or they might
charge less. :-)

>   "Ales are also the original beer of Europe."
   I guess the Sumerians and Egyptians don't count...

I don't know if they count, but they are respectively Asian and African,
not European.

All in all, I suspect the Miller brochure is mostly factual, just watered
down (like Lite beer) for the American public.  And any facts are better
than the kind of B.S. the public usually gets from our megabreweries.

- --Bill

Return to table of contents


Date:         Fri, 25 Jun 93 09:23:30 EDT
From: Elaine <EBORIS at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject:      RE commercials & SCOTCH ALE request


In HBD # 1167, Tony Johnston said,

>
>...  If I wanted commercials, I would watch TV :( !!!!!


about this in HBD # 1169, Garret Hildebrand says,

>                   ...but I also read the HBD to get data
>and opinions on products which I might think about purchasing,
>and to hear about new things which are offered.


I agree with Garret 100%!   I LIKE hearing what people think about
products and IMHO I don't think anything posted has even come near
to being as annoying as TV ;-)

( change of subject)

Does anybody have a recipe that is similar in taste to McAndrews
Scotch Ale?  I do mostly extract brewing with added grains, but I
have done an all grain brew that turned out nicely, so I wouldn't
mind trying another.   TIA  --Elaine

Elaine Boris                                  Student Information Systems
Computer Services Specialist                  University of Georgia
706 542-0484                                  Athens  Georgia

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1993 07:42:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Bob Jones" <bjones at novax.llnl.gov>
Subject: Wyeast 3068

Would someone who has used 3068 and feels qualified to describe it's
fermentation characteristics please do so. What wheat beer style is
it best used with? I assume it is German. Does this mean it is a big
phenol and clove producer? Is ther some Brettanomyces critters in there?

I'm getting pretty tired of who's on first when it comes to mills!

Bob Jones

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 09:51:34 CDT
From: krueger at comm.mot.com (Kevin Krueger)
Subject: Cherry Brew? from Door County

Since I am heading up to Door County (WI) this weekend for some S&R (surf and
relaxation), my mind drifted back to last year when I had a chance to try
a cherry beer from Door County called Cherry Rail.  Has anyone else had this
beer?  Personally, it was a lame beer and it tasted like Miller with cherry
flavoring.  

After my first swallow, I knew something was up with this beer,
so I really combed the beer label looking for any clues.  Before I could even
dip into my fish boil: at {, I found the problem.  They brew the beer and then
add cherry flavoring to the beer!  What's up with that?  Is that how they make
their apple beer?  In fact, I am curious if there any fruit beers on the market
that actually use real fruit and not flavored extract.

Which leads me to my other question about bad beer.  In our party, we all 
ordered the cherry beer and we all thought it was pretty lame.  I was the only
beer connisseur (sp?) in the bunch, so that leads me to believe that it was
truly bad.  So how does a brewery stay afloat with beer that, IMO, was only
drinkable because I had been in the sun all day?  

BTW, I know it was brewed under contract at another house, but that doesn't
make my questions not worth asking.  The label said Door County Brewery and
that was what I remember about it.  That and the fact that I had to order a Dog
Style to wash down my fish boil!

Kevin

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 10:52:32 EDT
From: rgarvin at btg.com (Rick Garvin)
Subject: Belgian Malts: Pils -vs- ale


William Kitch published a recipe in HBD #1169 for a 5 gallon batch of 
Belgian Double that uses 2 lbs of Special B malt. Special B is over 
200 Lovibond. I used 2 lbs in a 12 gallon batch of Brown Ale on Tuesday 
and it was VERY brown. I would recommend 1/2 or 1/3 lb of Special B. 
Maybe less.

I really do like the Special B. Tim Artz has gotten some weird comments
back from contests using this malt. One suggested that his beer 
(Dunkel Weizen?) had orange peel in it when it had nothing but Special B
as an addition to malt. It may take judges a while to get used to it.

Cheers, Rick

Rick Garvin rgarvin at btg.com
BTG, Inc. Navy Programs Division, Vienna, VA 703-761-6630

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1993 09:25:27 -0700 (MST)
From: Cisco <FRANCISCO at lan.ccit.arizona.edu>
Subject: foaming/flat kegged beer

I forgot to add that when you are dispensing through a coiled chiller
that you not leave the CO2 connected overnight because it will
eventaully cause more CO2 to go into solution. When using copper
dispensing tubing make sure to thoroughly clean it after each use.

For those of you who like their ales served at traditional
temperatures, my previous post several HBD's ago stated that the
optimum dispensing pressure was 12 lbs (adjusted +1lb for every 2000
ft. above sea level) and the length of 3/16 id hose should be 4(1lb.
drop for every four inches)* compensated dispensing pressure. This is
approximately 48 inches with a normal cobra tap or regular beer tap
such as through a refrigerator door. A tower tap has a 3lb pressure
drop across it and must be subtracted from the dispensing pressure
before calculating tube length. All this info is for a dispensing
temperature of 38 to 42 degrees. If you want your dispensing
temperature warmer, say 45 to 55, there are two techniques that can
be applied to adjust the dispensing pressure. Beer that is served
warmer allows more CO2 to escape and increases the pressure in the
keg. This increased pressure can be compensated for by 1).dropping
approximately 2 lb in dispensing pressure or 2).adding another 8 in.
of 3/16 id hose. You'll have to play around a little bit to get it
just right but you should only have to adjust the pressure + or - 1lb.
to tweek it in.

Hope this makes sense,
John Francisco
Francisco at lan.ccit.arizona.edu
>

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1993 11:02:14 -0700 (MDT)
From: walter at lamar.ColoState.EDU (Brian J Walter (Brewing Chemist))
Subject: Portland

Howdy folks,

	My wife and I are planning on going to Portland, but need to find
	someone to split a room with to keep costs down.  If anyone is in
	a similar situation and wouldn't mind sharing let me know. 

	Good Day,

	Brian 

Brian J Walter            |Science, like nature, must also be tamed|  Relax,
Chemistry Graduate Student|with a view towards its preservation.   |Don't Worry
Colorado State University |Given the same state of integrity, it   |  Have A
walter at lamar.colostate.edu|will surely serve us well. -N. Peart    | Homebrew!

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 11:44:46 EDT
From: chuck at synchro.com (Chuck Cox)
Subject: Re: Anheuser-Busch buys Sierra Nevada

Rick Garvin sez...
> 
> I was at the brew-pub in progress Bardo in Arlington, VA on Monday night.
> In speaking with Bill Stewart the owner (very wacky guy with bottle of Celis
> White in his hand) he asked if I had heard the rumor that Anheuser-Busch
> was in negotiations with Sierra Nevada Brewing Company for a take over.
> What!? He said that this rumor was completely unsabstantiated but came
> from someone in the industry.
> 
> I called SNBC today at 916-893-3520 and spoke with Peggy. She was surprised
> that the rumor had gotten to Washington, DC but she had heard it. She said
> that this was absolutely false. Now, our friends at the SEC do not like
> companies to deny these things if it is true. So, I beleive her.
> 
> Thank You God.

Hey! It's rumor time.

According to sources at the breweries, A-B did ask both Sierra Nevada
and Anchor (and possibly others) what their selling price was, both
declined.

According to sources in both the brewing and financial worlds, A-B is
seriously considering buying Jim Koch's Boston Beer Litigation Company.

- -- 
Chuck Cox   <chuck at synchro.com>
SynchroSystems / Riverside Garage & Brewery - Cambridge, Mass.

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 12:46:51 EDT
From: sdlsb.dnet!73410%sdlcc at swlvx2.msd.ray.com (Omega)
Subject: Yeast culturing / Comments

I am interested in culturing yeast, but don't really know where to start.  TIA 
for info/sources of info by private e-mail to "73410 at sdlcc.msd.ray.com".

On to the commentary...

What is the point in posting notices of local club meetings here?  99 percent 
(or more) of us do not live in your area!

To add my $.02 to the advertising debate; it strikes me as highly inappropriate 
to advertise on this list.  It is a waste of bandwidth for those of us who are 
looking for an informative forum on tips and techniques.  It also does an 
injustice to those who voluntarily restrain themselves on the list and actually 
PAY for their advertising.  If a product is good, we will hear about it from 
satisfied customers.  'Nuff said.

Carl Howes


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 11:29:12 PDT
From: ghultin at sfu.ca
Subject: HBD advertising

I think the problem with online advertising is that
it can't be avoided.  When some HBD subscribers advertise their
products and other don't, we all get to see the advertising, as
we are, in a sense, a captive audience.  I think this is where
the feeling that computer nets. like HBD shouldn't contain advertising
comes from/
 
For those who do use it to advertise products it is a cheap and
effective means of communicating for business purposes.  For those
who use HBD to indulge their passion for homebrew, advertising can
be a pain.  Notice that some people have discriminated between the
'kinds' or 'degree' of blantancy in advertising.  What we have
here is a range of uses, and range of users, and no particular, spoken
agreement of what constitutes acceptable use of a free medium.
 
The issue of advertising on computer nets. is similar to door-to-door
sales--how much freedom do businesspeople have to talk to you.
 
some non-HB but definitely D thoughts for you
 
geoff.


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 14:06:03 CDT
From: chips at coleslaw.me.utexas.edu (Chris Pencis)
Subject: oops wrong email address

ok to those people who wanted info on the Wyeast single strain bavarian
wheat yeast source but couldnt get mail to me (we've got a screwed up
mail server) - my corrected signiture is listed below....so try again

======================================================================
|Chris Pencis 				chips at coleslaw.me.utexas.edu |
|University of Texas at Austin		Robotics Research Group	     |
======================================================================

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 15:29 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: DMS and PU

A few days ago, Jack wrote about his Pilsner Urquell clone that was
brewed as closely as possible to Darryl Richman's description of the
way Prazdroj Pilsenski (I think that's the spelling?) makes PU.

Well, last night, I had a chance to try some of this beer.  A good
attempt, I must say!  The bitterness was right on, the hop flavor
was clean and accurate (Czech Saaz hops used throughout) and the
malty smoothness was very close.  Amazingly pale for a four-decoction
beer.  On the down-side, the Saaz nose could have been stronger and the
DMS level was a bit high.  This is coincident with my assertion that
a slow cooling would result in increased levels of dimethyl sulfide (DMS).
It was not too bad, however, and small amounts of DMS are acceptable
in Lagers (perhaps, and I'm just guessing here, because the cooler
fermentation causes a less-vigorous production of CO2, which (we
know for a fact) will scrub out excess O2 and DMS from the beer).

The beer had been fermented and lagered at 40F for a while (I forgot
to ask how long).  Perhaps a longer lagering (and maybe if it was
lagered at 32F as in Pilsen) the DMS level would be a bit lower?  Does
anyone know if DMS can be reduced via lagering?  Can someone check
DeKlerck and "Malting and Brewing Science?"  I've already checked "The
Biotechnology of Malting and Brewing" by Hough -- it's not mentioned in
there.

Al.

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 13:40:30 PDT
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: Hop aroma, alapha acid questions

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 09:28:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: Dry-Hopping & Bitterness

Mark Garetz says:

> No.  IBUs are *roughly* equivalent to the milligrams/liter of isomerized
> alpha acids in beer.  The alpha acids are responsible for the bitterness
> in the beer.  The oils from the hops are responsible for the hop character
> and aroma in the beer.  Hop character is imparted by late additions of
> hops in the kettle and/or by steeping hops while the wort cools.  Some hop
> aroam is also imparted by this, but it is a totally different aroma than
> you get with dry hopping.  The aroma imparted by dry hopping resembles the
> aroma of the fresh hops.  But no bitterness is imparted by the hop oils,
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> whether added directly as an oil, or by adding hops late in the boil or by
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> dry hopping.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^

:I would hope that by this, Mark is not saying that NO bitterness is
:imparted by late or very late hop additions.  This is simply not true.
:One of the few concrete lessons I learned from a short course at UC
:Davis was that even steeping hops cold imparts some bitterness.  During
:the course we tasted a variety of beers put together by the regular
:brewing students, including one in which the ONLY hop addition was a
:dry-hopping of Cascades.  There was a very distinct, albeit low,
:bitterness contribution.

:I also take issue with Mark's assertion that dry-hopping produces a
:_different_ hop aroma than late kettle additions.  Dry-hopping certainly
:produces more aroma per ounce of hops added, but I have never
:experienced or observed anything like the phenomenon Mark describes.  I
:hope this isn't taken as a flame, but judging from the bio in the latest
:Zymurgy, Mark's experience level as a brewer is not great enough to be
:making blanket assertions like this.

PLEASE don't take any of my comments as a flame either.  This kind of
friendly discussion is what makes HBD interesting.

Well I did say that the HOP OILS impart no bitterness.  But I also did
mean that adding late hops or dry hopping doesn't impart any SIGNIFICANT
amount of bitterness, as is borne out by your own post.  Sorry if sometimes
my wording sounds strong ("none" vs "not much") but my opinion is that it is
so small as not to be considered.  I have found that for most audiences
you generate more questions with "not much" answers than you do with "none"
type answers (HBD readers who are generally very astute may be the exception
to this rule, I'll try and remember.)

As far as the difference between hop aromas in late hop vs. dry hopping,
this is not something I came up with out of the blue.  This is well 
documented in brewing literature like Malting and Brewing Science by J.S.
Hough et al as well as by the profesional brewers that I have interviewed.
I can also taste the difference quite distinctly, even if you can't.
It is the heat of the process (in the late boil) that changes the aroma
profile.  I'm also not sure of your statement that "dry-hopping certainly
produces more aroma per ounce of hops added."  Aside from the issue that I
feel that late hopping produces more of a "hop character" and taste than
aroma, (let's just change the wording to "hop effect" for purposes of 
discussion), the heat of the wort will certainly extract more oils than 
cool beer, but the heat will also cause a lot to evaporate, and there is the
time factor to consider:  Dry hops are in the beer a lot longer than kettle
hops or those in a hop back.  The whole subject is quite complicated, and
I'm the first to admit I have no clue what the real answer is.  It would be
interesting to run some experiments to see the relationship of quantity vs.
time of late hop additions.  I imagine there is an optimal time where the
maximum amount of oil is extracted, but hasn't boiled away yet.  It probably
looks like a bell curve:  the longer the hops are boiled, the more oil is 
extracted, but the more oil evaporates.  Shorten the time, less evaporation,
but less extraction.  Also, longer time = more aroma change.  The speed
of wort cooling is also a factor.  Somewhere in the middle, there is probably
an optimum point.

Mike Schrempp asks if I have a curve that would show alpha acids vs. harvest
time.  I'll look and I'll ask some hop growers if they have any data and report
back.  Meanwhile, I don't know that I'd worry too much.  Not all of the cones
on your plant budded at the same time, got the same amount of sun, etc.  So
unless you're willing to harvest each cone indvidually, there is going to be 
quite a bit of variation anyway.  In the real hop world, alpha analysis for
each lot of hops has to be done by sampling many different bales and coming
up with an average for the lot.  Cone to cone, alphas (and oils) vary quite
a bit, even from the same lot.  So again, I'm not sure I'd worry too much.

Mark from HopTech


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 15:15:26 PDT
From: Darryl Richman <darrylri at microsoft.com>
Subject: re: Wort Chilling

A quick note about the brewing procedures at Pilsner Urquell brewery 
and the relationship between their cooling technique and DMS creation:

While it is true that the hot, bittered wort at PU is cooled slowly in 
a coolship, which could engender a great deal of DMS production and 
retention from latent S-Methyl Methionine (SMM), one must consider that 
the preceding boil is exceptionally long and it is likely that most of 
the SMM has already been converted to DMS and then evaporated off (see 
Fix's "Principle of Brewing Science" for a lot more detail here).

Also, consider that DMS levels of 0.1 mg/l or more are typically 
reported in lager beers (3 times the flavor threshold), while ales 
generally have DMS levels below the threshold.  *Some* DMS flavor is, 
in fact, a defining character of lager beers, and adds to the crisp 
flavor profile.

		--Darryl Richman

Return to table of contents



End of HOMEBREW Digest #1170, 06/29/93