FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Plastin, Hotbreak (Jack Schmidling)
  Re: dextrose ("Donald G. Scheidt")
  Hello? Anyone Home? (Gene Zimmerman)
  possessed keg and 1.018 is the number of the FG (Bart Thielges)
  international brew transport? (Michael P. O'Neill)
  re: more on sugar in beer ("William A Kitch")
  re: Parking in Portland (Paul dArmond)
  The last bottle (Tim Anderson)
  Hop harvest and Chico yeast (Tom Rush)
  Smells like crap! (CMACK)
  Many Topics... (STBLEZA)
  Carboys (Rich Ryan)
  kegging info - Help! (Jim Sims)
  Use of sucrose solutions in long-term yeast storage (Human Genome Center, LBL) <stevko at genome.lbl.gov>
  Brewers Warehouse propane stove (Tom Altenbach Room 2039)
  Nitrogen and Carbon Dioxide Regulators. (SMUCKER)
  Neuweiler's Stock Ale (kstiles)
  yet another question - alternative brew vessels (Jim Sims)
  RE: Mint Beer (Kristof_Mueller)
  Mint in beer ("Westemeier*, Ed")
  step infusions ("Anton Verhulst")
  Hops for Lambic ("William A Kitch")
  Reno BrewPubs, homebrew clubs, etc? (Chuck Coronella)
  Irish Moss (Rick Garvin (703-761-6630))
  Re: Purchasing Supplies (Fritz Keinert)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 14:21 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Plastin, Hotbreak

 
 >From: "/platinum/homes/hethmon/.signature" <hethmon at cs.utk.edu>
 >Subject: Plastic Fermenters
 
 Oh Boy! This is my favorite topic.
 
 >I noticed a definite lack of bubbles coming up through the fermentation 
 lock. I asked at my homebrew store and he said it was hard to make a good 
 seal between the lid and pail.
 
 It is difficult to get an airtight seal but the necissity to do so is the 
 great issue here.
 
 It seals well enough to keep anything from falling in and few things are 
 capable of crawling up, under and into the fermenter via the tiny leaks.  
 Furthermore, during fermentation, CO2 is trying very hard to get out through 
 these leaks and tends to keep other stuff from getting in.
 
 The hole in the lid is simply an evil plot by the retailers to force you to 
 buy a fermentation lock to fill the hole.  There is enough CO2 generation 
 initially to make it look cool but when the pressure drops off, it looks like 
 fermentation is done but the gas is just leaking out the easy way.
 
 I have been fermenting for several years in a SS kettle with a lid that just 
 rests on and makes no attempt at an airtight fit and see no need to worry 
 about the fit of the lid on the plastic fermenter.
 
 The idea of using a carboy and blow-off system still gives me a headache.  It 
 seems to be another one of those solutions to a problem that does not exist.
 
 That is not to say that after primary fermentation is complete, that is 
 should not be transferred to a carboy for secondary and clearing.
 
 >From: gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
 >Subject: Hot Break Terminology
 
 The definition you quoted reads a lot like Noonan's but is a bit more clear.  
 I find it interesting to point out the additional confusion that is created 
 by the fact that in order to test for "hot break", the wort must be chilled.
 
 The stuff at the bottom after chilling, must of necessity be called the "cold 
 break".  This leaves us where I proposed several years ago, viz., the hot 
 break is a point in time, not stuff.
 
 It would be beyond reason to call the stuff hot break while hot and cold 
 break when cold if it is indeed the same stuff.  One only knows that one had 
 a proper "hot break" by chilling the wort and looking for its absence.  The 
 stuff on the bottom is irrelevant because you don't know if you got it all 
 without looking where it aint no more.
 
 js
 
 

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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 9:36:34 PDT
From: "Donald G. Scheidt" <dgs1300 at aw101.iasl.ca.boeing.com>
Subject: Re: dextrose

In HOMEBREW Digest #1182, Thu 15 July 1993,
KLIGERMAN at herlvx.rtpnc.epa.gov (Andy Kligerman) writes:

>Subject: dextrose, hot break
>
>F.J. Dobner  writes"..my understanding of dextrose is that it is not largely
>fermentable (by commonly used yeast)."...
>He must be confusing dextrose with some other sugar.  Glucose, dextrose,
>corn sugar, and grape sugar are synonymous (The Merck Index 10th Edition)
>These are all fermentable by common yeast.

I wonder if someone is confusing dextrose with dextrins here.  Dextrose, of
course, is a sugar, and quite fermentable, thus contributing to alcohol
content and priming/conditioning; dextrins are somewhat sugar-like, and
contribute to body and mouthfeel, but are not very fermentable by beer
yeasts.  Just an attempt to clear up a little possible confusion here,
certainly no flame intended.
- -- 
        __       |                                        |       __
       /\ \      |  Don Scheidt                           |      /\ \
      /  \ \     |  Boeing IASL, 777 Cab Development      |     /  \ \
     / /\ \ \    |  dgs1300 at aw101.iasl.ca.boeing.com      |    / /\ \ \

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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 14:20:36 CDT
From: Gene Zimmerman <ezimmerm at hp.uwsuper.edu>
Subject: Hello? Anyone Home?

Salutations!
   Is anyone getting this newsetter? I haven't recieved one for the past
three days. Hello? Anyone out there? Sorry to waste the bandwidth...

Gene in Duluth


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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 11:04:23 PDT
From: nexgen!bart at olivea.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Bart Thielges)
Subject: possessed keg and 1.018 is the number of the FG

So I thought I'd be smart and start with a kegging system since I could
borrow most of the equipment from a friend who is in quiescent brewing
mode right now.  I've kegged two batches so far and had the same problem
each time.  The beer comes out somewhat transluscent.  It sort of looks
like watered down but dark chocolate milk.  Also, there is a noticable
spicy flavor which some people think tastes like ginger.

When I racked each keg, I also bottled a pint from the batch in a Grolsch
bottle.  The bottled pint turned out very clear and didn't have as strong
of a ginger taste.

Tonight, I'm going to completely disassemble the keg and replace ALL of the
rubber, including the poppets.  I've got a brush to scrub out the dip tube
so I think that it should be completely clean this time.  However, I'm
not completely confident that this keg has been excorcised from whatever
bug is contaminating it, so I've "invested" in some more bottling gear.
The third batch, I plan to put 1/2 into the 5 gallon Cornealius keg and the
other half into bottles.  Am I doing something completly stupid by only 
filling the keg half way ?  Of course, I plan to leave the check valve open
long enough after priming to allow enough CO2 to evolve and force the O2
out of the large head space, but I really don't know how long is enough
time.

Speaking of the check valve, I tried to remove it last night, but it seems
to be made of plastic.  My mental torque wrench told me that I was straining
it too much for the material when I tried to remove it.  Is there any
recommended method for removing it ?  Maybe I'll just soak the whole thing
in sanitizer.

On another point, all three of the batches that I have made so far (kits
supplemented with various other unhopped malt extracts) have ended at a
final gravity of 1.018.  This seems to be a strange co-incidence since I
used different amounts of ingredients each time.  Also, the FG seemed
stabilize rather quickly, like 4 or 5 days after pitching the dried package
of yeast included with the kit.

OK, now back to the yellow pages to look for an excorcist.

Bart

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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 07:41:18 PDT
From: mike at notorious.lbl.gov (Michael P. O'Neill)
Subject: international brew transport?



It's been a year since following this newsletter, so if this question
has been answered recently, thanks for your indulgence!

I was glad to find out that the company i read about in 
HOMEBREW Digest #773                         Tue 03 December 1991
i.e. Beers Across America, was still in business and was actually
sending brews to all except maybe 4 states;
but they don't (can't) do it outside the states.
I'm interested in sending a sample of a few California
brews to a friend I made while traveling; he lives in Finland.
Anybody have any ideas as to how to do this without having
to open a business and obtain a license and such?
Thanks for any and all replies; please send to

mike at notorious.lbl.gov

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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 12:00:36 CST  
From: "William A Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: re: more on sugar in beer

In HBD #1182 Bryan L. Gros asks about sugars.  Here's what I've
figured out so far.  I'll try to give source where appropriate.

To the best of my knowledge there are two reasons for adding sugar to
beer:  1) to add a certain flavor,  2) to add additional fermentables
without adding much flavor.  These are obviously two different purposes.

In the flavoring catagory are:
  Brown sugar:  Sucrose w/varying amounts of molasses added
  Molasses:  What's left over from refining sugar, strength and
             character of flavor vary w/brand and type.
  Treacle:  I don't know if this is simple a British term for molasses
            or a specific kind (help from the UK please).  Anyway
            Lyle's treacle is called for in some British ale recipes
            and is readilly availble at upscale US grocery stores.
  Turbinado, demerara:  Amber colored sugars, supposedly only partially
            refined. According to FDA types all sugar sold in US must
            be refined so I don't know what these really consists of.
            (Help from you FDA type or food science folks)
            C & H sell a product called "Wash raw sugar" which is
            described as "turginado-style".  I haven't used it but in
            HBD#1141 Paul dArmond says it "doesn't give a cidery taste,
            and at the 1# level leaves a yummy sweet *aftertaste*"
   Piloncillo:  Mexican brown sugar, various color availble.  The ones
            I've found all say refined sucrose.
   Dark sucre-candi:  Philip Seitz says as near as he can tell rock candy=
            sucre-candi.  Piere Rajotte says in _Brewing Belgian Ales_
            that sucre-candi is sucrose.  The dark sucre-candi is
            caramelized before being crystalized.  Nobody seems to have
            a US source.  I've tried camelizing my own sucrose.  It's
            not hard to do.
  I don't know how to assess the flavor added by any of these except to
  try one and taste the finsihed product.  I recently tried a very dark
  piloncillo and didn't like the flavor it added--a sort of tart edge.

In the adding fermentables catagory there are:
  Sucrose:  A double sugar made of one glucose and one fructose molecule.
    Invert sugar is just sucrose that has already been split.  It is used
    in confectionaries for reasons I know nothing about.  Yeast must split
    sucrose inorder to metabolized it.  This happens outside the cell wall
    by enzymes secreted by the yeast (per<Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu>)
    However, if the sugar is already inverted it's less work for the yeast.
    To my mind this doesn't make it more fermentable just more easily
    fermented.
  Glucose aka corn sugar:  A simple sugar directly metabolized by yeast.
  White candi-sugar: Per Rajotte, large crystals of sucrose.

There is stong consensus that too much sucrose adds a characterist cidery
taste.  According to Miller, it's the fructose half of sucrose that's
responsible for the cidery taste.  Hovever, some brewers say that even
glucose will add a cidery taste in large quantities [per,
cjh at diaspar.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock)]

Most brewers agree that replacing maltose with glucose or sucrose
in beers meant to derrive their sugar from malt is a bad idea.  At best
you brew will have a thin body and flavor.  On the other had high
gravity Belgian ales call for sugar as an adjunct.  The purpose is to
lighten the body and maltiness of these high gravity beers.  This is
one thing that makes them distinct from say Barley Wine.  Rajotte says
Belgian brewers may add either glucose or sucrose to their high gravity
beers.  Some say the already high maltose content hides the cidery flavor.
Then again maybe it's the lousy weather they have there most of the year,
who knows?

Sante', WAK

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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 08:16:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul dArmond <paulf at henson.cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: re: Parking in Portland

If you're coming to Portland, be ready for parking shortages.  The city
Fathers and Mothers decided that persuading everyone to kill their cars
was a good idea for the 21st century, so they passed an ordinance that
limits the number of parking spaces per downtown block.  Ride the bus, eh?

I called the Mariott and spoke with Kim at the front desk.  Here's the deal...

The Mariott has limited parking space, it all valet parking  at  $14 per day,
if you have a room there or not...  Right behind the Mariott, connected by
a skybridge, is a city lot  at  $9 per day, plus some in/out fees.  I've
heard that Portland has pretty good public transit (hey, Jeff! what's it
like?), so maybe that will help.  Considering what a lot of us will be
doing, riding the bus or light rail or whatever the heck it is that they
have there might be a good idea while we're wearing the knees out of our
trousers looking for more and more good beer.

Paul.


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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 07:56:47 PDT
From: tima at wv.MENTORG.COM (Tim Anderson)
Subject: The last bottle

In korz.digest #1182, Dave Hinz writes:

>ObHomebrewComment:  Don't you just HATE finishing the last bottle of a batch?
>It's sort of sad to know that the whole thing is history...

Not at all.  It's wonderful.  Once you've made a bad batch and had to pour beer
down the drain (now there's something to hate!), there is great joy in knowing
that every single bottle has been a source of pleasure.

By the way, I use one clear bottle in each batch, and it's the last one I open.
When my wife sees me trudging up the basement stairs cradling a clear bottle of
beer in trembling hands, she knows to keep a reverent and respectful silence
until the glass is drained.  Hmmm, maybe I should us more clear bottles.

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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 10:08:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tom Rush <trush at mhc.mtholyoke.edu>
Subject: Hop harvest and Chico yeast

I have quite a different report on my hops than the one I posted
last year(large yields and lush plants) the summer has been and
continues to be hostile to all growers. The drought and heat has 
been a disaster for farmers and home gardeners alike, the prolonged
heat wave withers plants even if irrigated--it seems worse in this
area since Ct,VT,NY,etc. are hurting but not as badly.

Anyway, my cones are all coming early, very few, and the vines have
stopped growing. The japanese beetles have returned with a vengeance,
they invited potatoe beetles and I have a strange green catapillar
munching on the cones and leaves(this may be a rare type of moth/
butterfly which feeds only on hop vines according to a reference
book)thats all I need a "spotted-owl" endangerd worm and Sierra
will checking on me. I can see where hop growers can have "feast or
famine" cycles. Only consulation my "hersbrucker" is alive and well
which I thought I lost last year(only grew 4 inches after being
stepped on and crushed also the two Saaz I planted this year are
thriving.

Has anyone encounterd or has an answer to the following: I use Chico
yeast cultured from SNPA, use my own hops, aerate after boiling
and cooling to the point of using a sterilized chefs omelet mixer
(reason follows)it foams up the wort 3-4 inches but subsides quickly
and the yeast is perking overnight. The probleml is, the primary
gets stuck by the second day-I transfer to the secondary VERY
CAREFULLY AVOIDING FURTHER AERATION and the batch takes off again.
It works so much in the secondary I can't use an airlock and have a
blow-off tube in a bucket to catch the overflow. The beer comes out
perfect(deeeliciuuus) but the procedure troubles me.

Any suggestions or theories are welcome,

 -tom




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Date: 15 Jul 1993 10:48:44 -0600 (CST)
From: CMACK at ssc.wisc.edu
Subject: Smells like crap!


Hi -- first I'd like to thank everybody for suggesting breweries
and pubs in San Francisco and San Diego.  Other folks have gone
on about how helpful the people on this list are, so I'll let it
go and get on with my question.

I'm still relatively new to homebrewing, and on my 6th batch
(an Anchor Steam clone), something odd is happening.  I thought
the smell in my basement was coming from somewhere else, but when
I sniffed above the airlock of the primary fermenter, I almost
gagged on this nasty, sulfurous odor.  Maybe it's just my
imagination, and the fermenter isn't actually *distended* from
the gas production, but it still has me spooked about this batch's
chances.  (At least I don't have to worry about oxidation?) 
As far as I know, this was a standard extract recipe, not so
different from Papazian's Steam in TNCJoHB.  Can anyone tell me
what's gone wrong?

Thanks,
Chris Mack

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Date: 15 Jul 1993 16:48:58 -0500 (EST)
From: STBLEZA at grove.iup.edu
Subject: Many Topics...

Greetings All, and You Too...

I have a few (heh!) brewing related questions.

First: Is it possible to use high proof (150 proof, 75 % +) alcohol to
sterilize equipment with?  I ask because I have access to Mexican potable
rubbing alcohol, and I couldn't come up with a reason not to use it (since I
won't drink it, I like my health to much).

Second:  Doesn't anyone have any info on Kitzinger Reinzuchthefen Liquid
Culture (fancy name for yeast)?  I found this in a small, local winery, and
wanted to know what it's charecteristics are.  ANY info would be helpful...

Third:  Has anyone on the digest tried to use a double fermentation on beer?
I heard about the process, and was thinking of trying it, but I decided to
consult higher authorities first.  For those un-familar to the process, you
pitch a yeast with a low alcohol tolerance (ale and lager yeasts) into your
primary, then wait until the fermentation slows due to alcohol abundence,
transfer into a secondary, and pitch a second yeast in that has a higher
tolerance (such as a wine or champagne yeast).  What effects would this have?
Is it at all desirable?  Has anyone done this?  Is there any literature on
this topic (I can't find the source that gave me the idea for this)?  Have I
finally gone off the perverbial 'deep end'?

Last, I have some gasoline to throw onto the High Gravity Brewing fire...
In medieval times (circa 16th century and before), it was not uncommon for beer
to be mashed, etc in a small vessel, with water added in the fermenter before
fermentation started.  This allowed for smaller vessels to be used up to the
fermentation stage, allowing brewing to take place more readibly in the home.
If they were able to create beer good enough to write ballads about that are
still sung today using worts produced in this manner, seems to me that we should
have no problems making good beers like this, too...

White Belts Motto:  Weebles Wobble but they don't Fall Down 
+*****************************************+***********************************+
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|  The only thing that lets me retain     |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
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|  friendship I share with my collection  |(AKA J. Hunter Heinlen)            |
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+=========================================++==================================+
WATCH THIS SPACE! DON'T LET IT GET AWAY!   | The SCA... A Dream to Some,      
                                           |    A Nightmare to Others!        

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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 07:29:17 -0400
From: Rich Ryan <ryancr at install4.swin.oasis.gtegsc.com>
Subject: Carboys


I received numerous posts in response to my request on where to
find a low cost carboy. A number of individuals suggested a 
Corning/Revere Factory Store. They carry 5 gallon carboys for
$9. If you are interested in finding a store in your area you
can call 800-999-3436 0800-2400 EST. I was able to find a few
locations. 

Rich

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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 17:25:00 EDT
From: sims at pdesds1.scra.org (Jim Sims)
Subject: kegging info - Help!

 Well, I'm taking the plunge into the world of kegs. I found 4 5-gal
soda kegs (with syrup - bleech!) for $5 each, regulator for $15, Co2
tank for $20, and tap/dispenser for $15. (how are these prices, btw?)

 I need to know what I need to do to these tanks before using them
(besides replacing all the rubber seals as someone mentioned), and
where to get parts, rebuild kits, etc. I've got a batch of beer ready
to bottle, er, keg right about now....

thanks,
jim

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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 15:37:46 PDT
From: Victor Stevko (Human Genome Center, LBL) <stevko at genome.lbl.gov>
Subject: Use of sucrose solutions in long-term yeast storage

The purpose of putting sucrose ( or glycerol/glycerin ) in a yeast culture
to be stored long-term in a freezer is to keep the yeast from exploding. 
That is, normally yeast can't survive freezing temperatures - the water
inside the yeast freezes, breaking their outer membranes and killing them.
 Adding 10-15% glycerol will change the osmotic balance of the yeast and
keep them from freezing to death.  It should also keep your stocks liquid
at freezer temperatures.  This is a standard method of keeping bacterial
and yeast stocks long-term in the lab, though we usually freeze to -80 C. 
 -20 C, freezer temperature, is fine for stuff you'll use in a year or two,
though.  
			---Vic

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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 16:21:14 PDT
From: toma at xcski.llnl.gov (Tom Altenbach Room 2039)
Subject: Brewers Warehouse propane stove

Glenn Raudins writes in HBD 1182:
>re:  Brewer's Warehouse
>  Has anyone out there bought their propane burner?  It appears to be in a
>ceramic base of some nature, which probably would solve the need to build a
>heat shield.

	I have purchased two of their stoves. They are solidly constructed
entirely of metal, have sufficient power to easily boil 13 gallons of wort, 
and are easy to control at low flame for simmering or mashing too. The base
is NOT ceramic, however I do sit my stoves on top of ceramic tiles in my
brewery. You can call them directly for more info. They have been very helpful
to me when I have phoned, (206-527-5047). [standard disclaimers apply]

	Tom Altenbach

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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 21:05:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: SMUCKER at UTKVX.UTCC.UTK.EDU
Subject: Nitrogen and Carbon Dioxide Regulators.

There have been some question lately about gas regulators.  Some 
general information:  Gas regulators are all built on the same 
principle but with some important differences for different gases.  
For one thing they have different fittings, threads etc. for different 
gases.  This is for our safety so that you don't get the wrong regulator 
on the wrong gas.  I believe that these difference have been set up by 
the American Welding Society and are regulated by the Interstate 
Commerce Commission.  As was point out several days ago (I sorry I 
lost the author) in the case of oxygen this is so you don't kill someone 
by putting a contaminated regulator on a oxygen tank in the 
future.  

Second oxygen and nitrogen regulator are built to take full 
cylinder pressure of 2500 psi plus a safety margin.  Carbon dioxide 
regulators on the other hand generally have a different spring in them 
to account for the lower pressure from the head space gas over the 
liquid carbon dioxide in your cylinder.  Also most carbon dioxide 
regulators are designed to limit freeze up, which if it occurs can 
allow high pressure gas or even some liquid carbon dioxide to pass.  
Not what you want.  

A good place to purchase a carbon dioxide regulator is you welding 
supply store.  A generic brand for low flow rate should run about $ 
40.00.  You may have to replace the low pressure gauge because it 
likely will be calibrated for flow rate rather that pressure but your 
welding dealer will have a replacement gauge and maybe willing the 
swap one out.  My was, but then I buy welding supplies too.


Dave Smucker,   Brewing beer,   not making jelley!!

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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 10:11:24 EDT
From: kstiles at woomera.att.com
Subject: Neuweiler's Stock Ale

Matthew Mitchell writes:
>Another excellent contract brew from Lion in Wilkes-Barre is the Neuweiler's
>Stock Ale, brewed for Neuweiler's of Allentown.  I think they have their
>own brewery, right?  They've been around a while and I never looked twice

A few years ago Neuweiler's started up as an upscale-type beer contract
brewed at Lion in Wilkes-Barre.  They bought the name from Neuweiler's,
which went out of business in the late 60's.  Supposedly, the new
company wanted the name only - the original Neuweiler'a was a 
blue collar-type beer, so they didn't use the recipes.  The old 
brewery still stands (unused for much of anything?) in Allentown.  It's
a very interesting building with big copper gargoyles and beer mugs.

>So is stock ale a defined style?  The last one I had was the Molson Stock Ale
(which had an anchor in the hexagon molson label ref to sea voyage like

>The label says that the story is that the beer was reserved for stockholders


That's my understanding - it was distributed to stockholders in liu of or
in addition to dividends.  Of course, today it is just marketing hype to
imply it is a higher quality beer.  I don't think it qualifies as a 
defined style.  I agree that it's a pretty good bargain - not in the
same class as, say, Stoudts, but a good deal at $12/case here in
Allentown.

 -Kevin Stiles

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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 08:43:54 CDT
From: pyeatt at Texaco.COM (Larry D. Pyeatt)

Subject: weevils



Chuck Cox writes:
> Does anyone have any experience eliminating weevils? I now only have one
> living plant left, and am concerned that predators may not be effective
> on a single plant.  Perhaps I should simply kill the weevils by hand. 

This may not be of any use to you, but when I was growing up on
the cotton farm in Texas, we ocassionally had infestations of
boll weevils.  The organic solution was to distribute ladybug eggs.
There is also another insect which will prey on weevils, but I
don't remember what it was.  Check with your county extention
agent (if you have one), maybe he will know something.


Larry D. Pyeatt                    This article does not reflect the views
( pronounced "Johnson" )           of my employer or of myself.  Any simi-
Internet : pyeatt at texaco.com       larity to the views of anyone, real or
Voice    : (713) 975-4056          fictional, is purely coincidental.
                                   



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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 09:28:56 EDT
From: sims at pdesds1.scra.org (Jim Sims)
Subject: yet another question - alternative brew vessels

 I was rooting around in the place i found the kegging
stuff the other day, and noticed several interesting vessels. One was
a 100-gallon coffeepot, complete with electric pump. There were two
other vessels, with stream heating elements surrounding about a 15-20?
gallon reservoir. All were stainless.

 Any ideas if these could be readily used for brewing? Or what I would
need to consider/look out for to decide for myself? 

 The 100 gallon coffeepot was a lot cheaper, but it wasn't obvious how
to get a heating element/burner 'under' it as it's built on a(n open)
stand. It does say "max temp 300 degrees F on the plate.

jim

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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 09:40:50 EST
From: Kristof_Mueller at voyager.umeres.maine.edu
Subject: RE: Mint Beer

Hmmm, mint beer, huh?  Why I dont have a recipe, I have tries something like
it.  Colt .45 came out with a product called Colt .45 Cool.  The first sip
was tasty, but everyone I knew who attempted to drink more than 6 ounces
threw up, so just be careful when you make your brew.  I imagine that it
could be good, but  my only experience with a mint beer was not good.
- --Kris

Beer, Beer
Starts with a B
Ends with an R
And has two E's



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Date: 16 Jul 1993 09:09:11 U
From: "Westemeier*, Ed" <westemeier at pharos-tech.com>
Subject: Mint in beer

Ed Wolfe asks about using mint.

I have very vigorous mint plants in my back yard, and use them for my
annual Christmas spiced ale.  I pick about two ounces of fresh mint
leaves and drop them in the kettle just at the end of the boil.  This
gives a mild, but definitely noticeable mint flavor.  If you want a
strong mint flavor, I would suggest three ounces (this is for a five
gallon batch).  This is one of my favorite brews of the year, and I use
other spices as well, but the minty note is what really makes it
special for me.

Ed Westemeier   Cincinnati, Ohio    westemeier at delphi.com


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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 10:13:34 EDT
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: step infusions


chuckm at pbn73.cv.com asks:

    Does anyone have a formula that will help me with Step infusions in
    order to hit proper temperatures.  eg.  I mash in a cooler tun. If I
    have X pounds of grain at Y degrees, how much 212 degree water must I add
    to raise the temp Z degrees. Given that I know X, Y, and Z all I need to
    find out is the 'how much'.

In my experience the answer of how much is "too much".

I do a protein rest using 1 quart of water to 1 pound of grain at 50C (122F).
I then add 1/2 quart per pound grain of boiling water.  This brings the temp
up to about 60C (140F).  This is a fairly reasonable mash - consistency wise.  
I wouldn't want to make it much thinner than that.  Besides, given an 8 or 9
pound grain bill, this brings the total volume up to the limit for
my 5 gallon stainless steelmash tun.  What I wind up doing is puting the mash
on the burner to bring the temp up (stirring constantly) to sachrification
temperature.

I understand that with a cooler tun, this option is not available to you
unless you resort to decoction mashing.
IMHO, With your set up I would recommend mashing only with fully modified malts
and forgetting about step infusion.

However, assuming to have the space in the mash tun and you are willing to
use a much thinner mash, to answer your original question, the formula
would be (check me on this HBDers):

Given:
	- heat = temperature times mass.
	- absolute temerature (kelvin) is 273 plus mash temp (centigrade).
	- water boils at 100C.
	- The US system of weights and measures suck and we should join the rest
	  of the world and convert to metric.
Assumption:
	on the eath's surface, weight and mass are numerically identical.

terms:
	sw = starting weight
	st = starting temperature (absolute)
	ft = final temperature (absolute)
	bt = boiling temperature (absolute)
	x  = water at boiling temperature to add

	sw(st) + (bt)x = (sw + x)ft

example:

	Assume 
		1 quart of water weighs 2 pounds - about a 10% error, but close
		enough. (1 gallon of water = 7.5 pounds).  

		you have a mash of 10 pounds grain and 10 quarts water for
		a total weight of 30 pounds.

		you have a protein rest at 50C (122F) and you want to raise
		it to sachrifcation temperature of 67C (152F).

	30(273+50) + (273+100)x = (30 + x)(273+67)

	9690 + 373x = 10200 + 340x

	510 = 33x
	x = 15.5 pounds of boiling water to add (about 2 gallons).

This is off the top of my head, I haven't actually tried it - I could be wrong.

This formula ignores pesky little things like heat stored by the container
(ya gotta heat the mash tun as well as the mash).

- --Tony Verhulst

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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 09:50:22 CST  
From: "William A Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Hops for Lambic

I was reading Mark Garetz' article on hop deterioration and storage
(very informative--thanks) and it reminded me of a question I've
always wanted someone to answer.  I've read (Jackson and elsewhere)
that the lambic brewers in Belgium use old hops, like up to 2 years
old!  The most sensible explanation I've read is that the aging
removes most (all?) of the bittering capability of the hops but
they still impart an important flavor to the beer.  So my questions
for you hop experts are:  What's left in two year old hops?  What
varieties are used for lambic?  Should I buy a couple of pounds of
hops now and put them in my 90F garage so I can start brewing
lambic-type beers in two or three years?

Sante' WAK

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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 08:56 MTS
From: Chuck Coronella <CORONELLRJDS at CHE.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Reno BrewPubs, homebrew clubs, etc?

Just found out yesterday that I'll be moving to Reno in mid August.  At last 
I'll be able to brew legally.  (Homebrewing in Utah is decades away from 
legalization.)  So what's the beer situation out there?  Brewpubs?  Homebrew 
clubs?  Microbreweries?

Thanks, and looking forward to seeing you in Reno (if I can finish my 
dissertation in time...),

Chuck

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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 10:42:44 EDT
From: rgarvin at btg.com (Rick Garvin (703-761-6630))
Subject: Irish Moss

 
Another data point for Irish Moss usage. I have used it off and on over 
the last seven years when I remembered. It is recently that I have 
become a believer. This spring I began using a 15.5 gallon keg (capacity 
15 gallons) as a boiler and a 48 qt Coleman cooler as a mash tun. 
Previously I had used a ZapAp for lautering. The switch came about to 
reduce HSA and increase capacity; 30 lbs vice 12-17 lbs (mash 
thickness dependent). 
 
Well, the classic copper manifold lautering approach does not (for me) 
produce as clear a run-off as the ZapAp. I started out with the 
cooler/copper manifold approach in 1987 and when I made the switch 
to ZapAp I noticed better clarity.
 
Lately I have been using one Tablespoon of Irish Moss per 12-14 
gallons of boiling wort. I have noticed a clearer wort post-boil and better 
clarity post-fermentation using the Irish Moss. In my next brew I will 
try using one Tablespoon per 5 gallons in my next batch.
 
Alex (alexsi at microsoft.com) talks of using PolyClar successfully. I 
have used it in the past also with dramatic results. My experience has 
paralleled that of Dan Carter, BrewMeister at Oxford Brewing Co in 
Baltimore. They chill their infusion mashed ales, do a course DE filter 
and place the beer in a bright beer tank. Here they chill to 2-4C and add 
"two scoops" of PolyClar. What Dan feels he gains by this is prevention 
of chill haze without doing a sub-micron filtration thereby negatively 
effecting mouthfeel.
 
Hot Break:
- -------------
 
It is good to see someone has finally made some sense in the hot break 
thread. Steve (sc at vcc.com) has described exactly my observations on 
hot break.
 
> The hot break begins at the beginning of the boil, 
> anyone unclear on this should bring an all grain
> (extracts have small hot breaks) beer just to
> boiling and then turn the burner down to observe
> the flocculation of proteins. IMHO no hops should
> be added until a hot break occurs as hop introduce
> nucleation sites that would otherwise be started
> by the larger proteins. This will give a brighter
> beer. By the way the hot break happends when the
> larger protiens come in contact with the interphase
> between steam and wort cooking them just as blood
> will form a solid when heated. I've seen flocs
> the size of dollar bills in my 40-gal brew system
> allways at the begining of the boil.
 
In my 15 gallon boiler fired by the Kin Kooker rocket engine I see hot 
break within 15 minutes. For my recent 60/40 Weizen (I am bring a 5 
gallon keg to Portland) I did a one hour boil before adding hops. I did 
indeed see protein goobers the size of canned hams within 15 minutes.
 
Now, in summer time I use a two stage heat exchanger. I use an 
immersion chiller with 40 ft of 3/8" soft copper to get the wort to 
~100F. Next, I have 20 ft of ice packed 3/8" copper that I gravity feed 
the wort through to get the final chill. on a 90F day I have beer going 
into my fermenters at 45F. It is really nice to see that condensation on 
the fermenters.
 
Why do you care how I chill my beer? Well in the winter with only an 
immersion chiller I get almost no cold break. With the combo chiller I 
see a dusting of cold break. Make of this what you want.
 
Summary:
 
Hot break: happens at the beginning of the boil. Consists of coagulated 
proteins that are insoluble at 212F.
 
Cold Break: happens when the beer is chilled. Consists of proteins (not 
necessarily coagulated) that are insoluble at pitching temperatures.
 
Chill Haze: happens when beer is chilled to serving temperatures. This 
is, essentially, the "colder break" that occurs when beer is chilled below 
fermentation temperatures and those proteins that are left over after the 
cold break that can precipitate at temperatures somewhere above 32F 
come out of solution into suspension.
 
See you in Portland.

Cheers, Rick

Rick Garvin rgarvin at btg.com
BTG, Inc. Navy Programs Division, Vienna, VA 703-761-6630

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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 10:24:43 CDT
From: Fritz Keinert <keinert at iastate.edu>
Subject: Re: Purchasing Supplies

In #1183, Kristof_Mueller at voyager.umeres.maine.edu asks

> I was just wondering,  I am 20 years old, and plan on brewing as soon as I
> get my apartment (in Sept.).  I know that legally I cannot brew beer until
> I'm 21, but can I buy supplies as a "minor"?  It seems to me that anyone
> should be able to buy a bucket and some grains.   Does anyone know the laws
> that apply here?  Thanks for your help.

The laws may vary from state to state, but it is definitely legal in
Iowa to purchase brewing supplies as a minor, and even to brew and
drink your own beer (in the privacy of your home)! The various alcohol
laws cover purchase of alcohol and public consumption, but not this
case. I think you are not allowed to give this beer to underage
friends, though, even in your own home.

Your best bet is to ask at a good homebrew supply store in your state;
that's what I did here in Iowa. If you ask the police or some other
state agency, they probably won't really know and just tell you "no,
you can't do that". I found that out when I tried to call the Chicago
airport customs office about details on beer importing: they are
supposed to enforce the laws, but they don't really know the details
themselves.
- ---
Fritz Keinert                             phone:  (515) 294-5223
Department of Mathematics                 fax:    (515) 294-5454
Iowa State University                     e-mail: keinert at iastate.edu
Ames, IA 50011


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1184, 07/19/93