FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Update on cidery beer / siphoning / Spec. Prod. Intl / etc. (Jim Graham)
  Irish Moss vs. Hog's Nose Cartilage; Jever heard of Friesia? (Joe H. Barfield)
  hop_storage (Glenn Tinseth)
  cider (/R=HERLVX/R=AM/U=KLIGERMAN/FFN=KLIGERMAN/)
  Use of B.E.S.T. Sanitizer (David Holsclaw)
  Hot break (Keith A. MacNeal HLO1-1/T09 DTN 225-6171  19-Jul-1993 1210)
  Petri dishes - source (Bruce Mueller)
  Alcohol as a sterilizing agent ("Roger Deschner  ")
  Questions on PTS/LB/GAL (Don Doyle)
  lost pot coating (Bart Thielges)
  carboys? (Jim Sims)
  cloudy keg beer/high FG/Raw Sugar/Sulfury ferment (korz)
  alcohol sanitizer/double ferment/kegs/pLambiek hops (korz)
  RE: Jever? Fresia? More on IPA (John Mare)
  Jever / Oostende / W66 (Timothy J. Dalton)
  Re: Jever Corrections (Bill Szymczak)
  Counterflow Chiller (Robert Pulliam)
  Is a trip to Yakima worthwhile? (Ignatios Alexander)
  Batch #2 and Cheap Carboys ("Michael Barre"                            )
  PPP (chris campanelli)
  Measuring color, how? (Ulick Stafford)
  Samuel Smith/Anchor Brewery Yeast (Glenn Raudins)
  A request (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  What happened to Sprecher?? (Kevin Krueger)
  Hotbreak (Jack Schmidling)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 09:57:33 -0600 (CDT)
From: jim at n5ial.mythical.com (Jim Graham)
Subject: Update on cidery beer / siphoning / Spec. Prod. Intl / etc.

First off, an update to my last post about the two batches that came out
tasting cidery.  Shortly after I'd posted that, I had to run to the local
homebrew supply store anyways, so I took a bottle of one batch with me.
The owner tried it, and most of the cidery taste was gone...or so it
seemed.  He was pretty sure that it just needed to age out.

Well, as time went on, the cidery taste actually started getting worse...or
so it seemed.....  As it turns out, I discovered last night, while dumping
some of the bottles down the drain to re-use when I ran out of bottles
while preparing to bottle some more beer, I noticed (after opening an
entire 6 of the ``bad'' batch's bottles) that some of the bottles from that
batch seemed fine.  Others could kill you by the smell alone.

It seems that the severity of the problem varies from bottle to bottle,
which leads me to believe that there *WAS* an infection, and that it was
caused by improperly sanitized bottles.

But there's only one small problem in that theory---a coincidence that's
just too much to believe.  The next two batches, which also relied simply
on boiling water (as opposed to bleach water, which is what I'm using now),
came out just fine.  Also, the two batches that went bad were both the
same brand, and I'm told that sometimes, quality control within different
companies can cause some brands to behave differently at times.

Could it be, for some reason, that this particular brand of extract is
more susceptible to infection?  Or is it just a wild coincidence?

Oh well, it's more or less a non-issue now....  It's a lesson learned, but
I'm sanitizing bottles with the same strength of (HOT) bleach water that I
use on dishes (pretty strong!)...and no bacteria is going to survive that!

As for the bad batches, I'm basically taking the advice someone here gave
me---keep 'em around until I need the bottles.  Every so often, I put one
in the 'fridge and see if it tastes ok.  I've yet to find one that did
(well, there were those 6 last night, but room temps here aren't exactly
at a level you'd want to drink beer at...78 deg beer doesn't sound too
great!).

- ------------

Now, someone had asked about siphoning into two different carboys at the
same time to do some experimenting, and was wondering about using a
Y-shaped siphon hose, etc., to avoid any possible problems with different
strengths/flavors of beer by siphoning one, then the other.

I have a simple solution for you (as far as I know, there's nothing wrong
with this suggestion...someone please correct me if there is)---use two
siphon hoses side by side.  Nice and simple...and cheap.

- ------------

> From: Elaine <EBORIS at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
> Subject:      re: Specialty Products Intl
> 
> About the review of "Home Beermakers Guide" by Leigh P. Beadle
> Sad but true:
> When I first tried my hand at brewing over 10 years ago I bought an
> equipment kit which included Superbrau and L.P. Beadle's ~guide~.
> Looking back, I am amazed that I didn't get any truly BAD beers from
> following his advice. It took some time (and much better books on
> homebrewing) to rid myself of bad brewing techniques I gotten from that
> book.

I found the review interesting, too...but for different reasons.

When I got into homebrewing early this year, my starter kit also included
the ``guide'' and Superbrau, but with one big difference---the owner of the
store made some modifications to the guide.  He basically went through the
instructions one by one, and said things like:  ``Ok, see where he says to
do this?  IGNORE IT.  Do it this way instead.  See where he says to do
things in this order?  That's backwards.  Here's how you really do it.''
And so on.

When I read the review here, I was going through the changes marked up in
my own copy, and for the most part, they all matched.

Either way, I quit using that particular reference after the first two
batches, anyways (I'd learned the mechanics, which is about all the
modified version of that really covered).

- ------------

Final note....  I'm going to be brewing what I hope will turn out to be a
very nice batch either today or tomorrow.  It looks something like this:

   BierKeller Premium German Malt Extract (Unhopped Dark)........... 3.3 lbs
   Munton & Fison dark malt extract (dry) instead of corn sugar..... 4 cups
   One packet bullion hop pellets

In other words, more or less the instructions on the can, except using malt
extract instead of corn sugar.  I've also got the same basic batch in
bottles right now, except it uses corn sugar (it'll be ready in about
another 8 days or so).

One question:  Is this going to give me a true German bock beer?  Or are
there enhancements I need to make the next time around?  I'd like to brew
a *REAL* bock, and possibly even a doppelbock.  So far, as far as I know,
the closest thing I've had to a real bock was a German import, Fiedlers
Bock im Stein (in those nice re-usable stone bottles).  I like it enough
to know that I'd like to brew a true bock.  I also know enough to know
that if it comes from a store, it probably isn't....

Suggestions?  Comments?
   --jim

- --
#include <std_disclaimer.h>                                 73 DE N5IAL (/4)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
INTERNET: jim at n5ial.mythical.com  |  j.graham at ieee.org     ICBM: 30.23N 86.32W
AMATEUR RADIO:  (packet station temporarily offline)       AMTOR SELCAL: NIAL
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E-mail me for information about KAMterm (host mode for Kantronics TNCs).


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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1993 17:38:22 +0700
From: ifby546 at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Joe H. Barfield)
Subject: Irish Moss vs. Hog's Nose Cartilage; Jever heard of Friesia?

Hi. My name is Joe and I use Irish Moss. 
   I boil the wort for about an hour and add the IM anywhere from 10-30
minutes before the end of the boil. I add somewhere between a heaping
teaspoon to a tablespoon to a shake or two of the bag when there aren't any
utinsils handy. Never very much. By the way, I've been brewing on the porch
lately. The sight of a 10 gallon pot on a cajun cooker will often elicit
queries from even the shyest of neighbors. I get a little porch time, meet
some neighbors (they love chucking in the hops), spread the quality beer
gospel, water the lawn with the immersion chiller run-off, and end up with
2 logs of quality beer. Plus, I don't have to scrub boil overs, I just hose
them down.
   Back to the IM.-   Sometimes I do a little experiment: When the boil is
over, I scoop out a cup of stirred up hot wort, pour it into my hydrometer
test jar and watch the hot break settle. Then I cool the wort to, say, 80
degrees, creating a discernible cold break. After rousting the break by
gently stirring, I take another sample and put it in my other hydrometer
test jar. (They are both actually the cheap plastic tube the hydrometer &
thermometer came in.) Five minutes after collection, the break matter
settles out. The sample from the cooled wort is always deeper than the
sample with only the hot break. No surprise, but it's neat to actually see
a quantitative demonstration of what we're talking about when discussing
the hot & cold break. 
   I lay out my hops and irish moss before I start the brew. That way I
don't have to think too much. One day my little experiment didn't work. The
hot break sample resembled suspended goo (or "juj", the technical term). It
didn't go anywhere. The cold break sample was even cloudier. I said to
myself "Hmmmm what happened?" whaddya know? The Irish moss was still on the
counter (this was when I still brewed in my kitchen); I hadn't added it. I
am a true believer in Irish Moss. I know it works. So does Break Brite. And
it's a lot easier to find (in my part of town) than ground hog's nose
cartilidge.

Send beer, quick!
Joe "Noise" B. from Austin, brewpub mecca of America - just you wait and see...

p.s. in response to Chris Pencis' query: Friesia is in the Netherlands. I
think.  It's supposed to be chilly there, but the highly productive milk
cattle there dig it that way. Any folks from the Netherlands read the HBD?
If so, send parsley so we can make some Jever! Maybe the Friesian spices
the Jever label referred to were hops. Like those skunky things in
Heineken.
 -JB 4 days b4 printing.
 -------------------------------
Joe Barfield, Publisher, Southwest Brewing News, ifby546 at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
Brewnews from Arkansas, Arizona, Louisiana, New Mexico, Oklahoma & Texas. 
406 W. 35th, Austin, TX, 78705.  512/467-2225. (FAX)512/282-4936. $12/yr
 ---- "We put the Lick in Publication" ----


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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 93 19:41:16 PDT
From: tinsethg at ucs.orst.edu (Glenn Tinseth)
Subject: hop_storage


In the July 1 HBD, Jonathan Knight asks about storing whole hops, 
(having been caused to worry too much by something he had read in some 
hop catalog;^) Let me first apologize for contributing to your stress levels 
and second try to assuage any worries about hops instantly turning to a 
quivering pile of moldy cheese if improperly stored.

I *have* to worry about storing hops because I need to keep them year 
round in top condition, ready to send out. Barrier bags, exclusion of light, 
and sub-freezing temperatures are how I slow the inevitable 
deterioration of whole hops. I also try to start with the highest quality I 
can find. You are already able to provide three of these four requirements: 
Buy (or grow) the best hops possible and store them in your freezer (after 
first making sure that the light *really* does go out when you shut the 
door:) At this point you are doing a better job than even some homebrew 
supply retailers I have seen, frequent contributors to the HBD excepted of 
course (Al Korzonas packs his hops for his Sheaf and Vine business as 
good as I have seen anywhere). Big (and small!) breweries rarely store 
their hops properly relying on the fact that they use hops quickly to 
prevent problems.

In order to exclude oxygen, two things need to happen: The hops need to be 
in a container that won't let O2 (or H2O) in, and that container needs to 
be purged of O2 before sealing. Glass mason jars fit the bill for the first 
requirement, wide mouth being the easiest to load. Some homebrew 
suppliers carry barrier zip-lock bags that will also do the job.The second 
requirement is a matter of degree. In my research in P-Chem, I worked 
with equipment that could get down to 10e-10 torr. A good bag sealer 
should be able to get to 150 torr (0.2 atm) or less. For long term storage I 
would say that vacuum removal of the air is the only way to go. However 
if you don't keep opened bags of hops around for very long I think that a 
vacuum sealer is definitely overkill. Pack a jar (or barrier zip-lock) as 
tightly as you can with hops and seal it. Put it in the freezer, 
and...RDWHHB. If you happen to have CO2 around go ahead and use it 
to purge the air from the jar or bag before packing the hops for added O2 
removal. 

The bottom line is if you get your hops from a reputable supplier (or grow
them yourself) and use common sense in storing them, you'll have no
problems.

Glenn (tinsethg at ucs.orst.edu)

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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 10:26:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: /R=HERLVX/R=AM/U=KLIGERMAN/FFN=KLIGERMAN/ at mr.rtpnc.epa.gov
Subject: cider

Help!
I recently made a cider using the dregs of my last cider which
turned out beautifully clear and dry.  I added nonpreserved apple juice
concentrate directly to the drega in a glass carboy and allowed it to ferment.
After six months it still hasn't cleared and when chilled gets a flocculant
haze.  I tried adding gelatin fining without much success and also tried
rechilling to about 32F.  Has anyone used pectinase with success?  Can I
add pectinase at this stage and if so how much do I add to 5 gallons
and how do I prepare it?  By the way I also added sucrose dissolved in 
water to try to clear this.  After about a month a one inch clear layer formed
on the top with a white fluffy haze below.
Thanks
Andy Kligerman



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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 10:01:51 +22306512 (CDT)
From: dhholscl at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (David Holsclaw)
Subject: Use of B.E.S.T. Sanitizer

Help!!!

I have had my last three batches head south with a strange medicinal type of a
smell and taste. I pitched the first two but am letting the third sit in the
secondary (hoping the flavor will mellow). I have just figured out that the
beginning of these off-flavors corresponds to my purchase of a bottle of
iodophor. I also noticed that the sanitizing solution seems to have the same
medicinal taste/smell as the beer.

My question is. How do those of you that use iodophor, use it. I have been
using it like bleach: mix up solution in a 5 gal. bucket, let the
utensils,carboy,etc. soak for about twenty minutes, rinse well, use assuming
sanitation.

I have reread the bottle of B.E.S.T and it says that the stuff does not need to
be rinsed, but should air dry. Is the stuff impossible to rinse off?? What is
the networks accepted method for using this stuff?

Do you think the beer is 'safe' to drink. I tastes funky (but after loosing
three batches my supply is dwindling).

I think I'm going back to bleach!! At least until this problem has been
identified.

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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 12:12:18 EDT
From: Keith A. MacNeal HLO1-1/T09 DTN 225-6171 19-Jul-1993 1210 <macneal at pate.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Hot break

While brewing a batch this weekend I kept a somewhat watchful eye on the
boil.  When the wort got to the "egg drop soup look" I stuck a thermometer in
and read a temperature of around 140 deg. F.

Keith MacNeal
Digital Equipment Corp.
Hudson, MA

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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 9:32:12 PDT
From: Bruce Mueller <mueller at sdd.hp.com>
Subject: Petri dishes - source

A while back, some of those interested in yeast culturing were looking for
reasonably priced petri dished.  I received a catalog recently which had
some for a decent price, just above their minimum order amount ($35).  For
100 mm dia by 10 or 20 mm high dishes, with cover, the cost is $41.51/12.
The company info:

J & H Berge, Inc.
The Lab Mart
4111 So. Plainfield, NJ 07080
(908)561-1235

Hope this is useful to a few.

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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 11:18:16 CDT
From: "Roger Deschner " <U52983 at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject: Alcohol as a sterilizing agent

Many of us have switched to ordinary vodka for sterilizing critical
things where bleach residue would be bad. Just buy the cheapest rot-gut
store brand vodka in your liquor store. I keep it in a plastic garden
sprayer, and spray things I want to sterilize, such as stoppers,
fermentation locks, etc, and then I always use vodka to fill the
fermentation lock itself. If some gets sucked in, who cares? Why use
vodka and not some other form of alcohol? Because vodka is "food-grade" -
i.e. it is intended to be fit for human consumption. With vodka you are
sure that you are not accidentally using one of the other forms of
alcohol that is SERIOUSLY poisonous.

And for rinsing out carboys, kegs, and such which have been sterilized
with bleach solution, just use the cheapest lawnmower beer. Finally
somebody found a use for Old Milwaukee Light Dry Draft.

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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 10:27:26 PDT
From: Don_Doyle at Novell.COM (Don Doyle)
Subject: Questions on PTS/LB/GAL


Could someone help me with extract rates. In Dave Millers book he has
a formula for degree of extract that says DE=SG*GAL/LBS of GRAINS.
What does this tell me?

If someone has other info, it would be very helpful.

As a real example, I brewed 11gals with 26.5 lbs of grains and got
a 1.065. What extraction am I getting and is it good?

Thanks in advance,

Don Doyle

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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 10:57:52 PDT
From: nexgen!bart at olivea.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Bart Thielges)
Subject: lost pot coating

A patch of ceramic coating came off of my 22 quart "ceramic on steel"
brew pot.  Should I never use it again for boiling wort ?  I've only
been making extract brews lately.  Will the iron leech out and ruin my
beer ?

Disaster Bart
Brewing equipment destroyed so far : 1 hydrometer, 1 brewpot

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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 10:36:59 EDT
From: sims at pdesds1.scra.org (Jim Sims)
Subject: carboys?

 I saw the post about Corning/Revere Factory stores as a source for
 Carboys  at  $9. Thanks!

 I called the 800 number (999-3436), but no one I talked to there or
 at the three locations she pointed me to in South Carolina seemed to
 even know what a carboy was, and all three stores denied having
 anything like a glass container for a drinking water dispenser (my
 explanation of what a carboy was).

 Any ideas? Do the stores you found know what a carboy is? Do they
 have them? Do they ship?

jim

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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 13:23 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: cloudy keg beer/high FG/Raw Sugar/Sulfury ferment

Bart writes:
>So I thought I'd be smart and start with a kegging system since I could
>borrow most of the equipment from a friend who is in quiescent brewing
>mode right now.  I've kegged two batches so far and had the same problem
>each time.  The beer comes out somewhat transluscent.  It sort of looks
>like watered down but dark chocolate milk.  Also, there is a noticable
>spicy flavor which some people think tastes like ginger.

>When I racked each keg, I also bottled a pint from the batch in a Grolsch
>bottle.  The bottled pint turned out very clear and didn't have as strong
>of a ginger taste.

Well, several things can cause cloudy beer.  Yeast is a common one.  Some
bacterial infections can give you a cloudy beer too.  Since the beer you
bottled cleared nicely, I suspect one of several things.  Both wild,
poorly-flocculating yeast can give you a permanent haze and your pitching
yeast can too.  Remember that your keg is much taller than a bottle and
that it will take proportionately longer for your pitching yeast to settle
into the bottom of the keg than it took in the bottle.  Another problem
may be that you carried over a lot of yeast from your fermenter and thus
have a lot of yeast in the bottom of the keg.  Even after it settles, it
may take a couple of glasses of beer before it starts to flow with good
clarity.  Note that every move of the keg will stir up the yeast a bit
and thus you may get some cloudy glasses for a while.  I've cut about
1 inch off the end of my liquid dip tubes and thus I can't get the last
4 ounces of beer out, but then again, most of that is yeast anyway.
I strongly suggest that you use a tubing cutter or you will have a hard
time getting the tube back into the keg (if you don't want to buy one,
just see if you can bring the tube into a hardware store and use theirs).
It may be better to leave the dip-tube full length because you can eliminate
some of the yeast that would otherwise just sit there in the keg (potentially
autolysing) and minimize the amount of yeast that will get shaken up
when you move the keg.  I don't know which would be better -- ideas?


You may also have an infection, but I suggest you let the beer carbonate
or force-carbonate the beer and then put it in the fridge to help the
yeast settle faster.  Give it about a week for the yeast to settle.  Don't
expect crystal-clear beer for the first glasses.  If this works, then you
don't have an infection problem.  If it doesn't, then you will have look
more closely at your sanitation techniques.

>On another point, all three of the batches that I have made so far (kits
>supplemented with various other unhopped malt extracts) have ended at a
>final gravity of 1.018.  This seems to be a strange co-incidence since I
>used different amounts of ingredients each time.  Also, the FG seemed
>stabilize rather quickly, like 4 or 5 days after pitching the dried package
>of yeast included with the kit.

It depends on the Original Gravity. If the OG was 1070, then perhaps 1018 is
not unreasonable.  Another thing that can cause your OG to be high is
insufficient aeration.  Finally, if you temperature-shock the yeast or
ferment at too-low a temperature, your yeast can settle out prematurely
leaving a high FG.

********************
WAK writes:
>            C & H sell a product called "Wash raw sugar" which is
>            described as "turginado-style".  I haven't used it but in
>            HBD#1141 Paul dArmond says it "doesn't give a cidery taste,
>            and at the 1# level leaves a yummy sweet *aftertaste*"

I put 2# of C&H Raw Sugar (from my local supermarket) in a recent batch
of IPA.  The OG of this beer was 1065 and was hopped with 45 or 50 IBU.  It
turned out, in a word... "cidery" at first.  As it ages, it is smoothing
 -out.  Initially, there were two distinct flavors present -- beer and
this "cidery" flavor.  It was almost as if you mixed some alcohol with
water and a few teaspoons of sugar in a glass and then took a sip of
that, swallowed and then followed this with a sip of a relatively decent
beer.  It was amazing how the flavors were distinct.  They are blending
better now (after two months of aging) but it's still not a good beer.
I now feel that 2 pounds is just too much sucrose for a 5 gallon, 1065 OG
batch.  But maybe it will be great in a few more months.  Perhaps I should
ship it to India and then have them ship it back to me?

****************************
Chris writes:

>I'm still relatively new to homebrewing, and on my 6th batch
>(an Anchor Steam clone), something odd is happening.  I thought
>the smell in my basement was coming from somewhere else, but when
>I sniffed above the airlock of the primary fermenter, I almost
>gagged on this nasty, sulfurous odor.  Maybe it's just my

Some yeasts produce sulphury odors during fermentation -- this is
expecially true for some strains of S. Uvarum (lager yeasts)  -- fear not,
your beer is probably just fine.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 13:25 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: alcohol sanitizer/double ferment/kegs/pLambiek hops

Jacobus writes:
>First: Is it possible to use high proof (150 proof, 75 % +) alcohol to
>sterilize equipment with?

Yes, but I've read that the contact time should be quite long -- sorry, I
don't know how long.

>Third:  Has anyone on the digest tried to use a double fermentation on beer?
>I heard about the process, and was thinking of trying it, but I decided to
>consult higher authorities first.  For those un-familar to the process, you
>pitch a yeast with a low alcohol tolerance (ale and lager yeasts) into your
>primary, then wait until the fermentation slows due to alcohol abundence,
>transfer into a secondary, and pitch a second yeast in that has a higher
>tolerance (such as a wine or champagne yeast).  What effects would this have?
>Is it at all desirable?  Has anyone done this?  Is there any literature on
>this topic (I can't find the source that gave me the idea for this)?  Have I
>finally gone off the perverbial 'deep end'?

This has been done and with success.  I wish I had done it on my last
Imperial Stout (which finished at 1050 (down from 1120) and then would
not carbonate -- see what happens when you try to rush a beer?)  It's 
a good idea if you want to get some characteristic of a particular ale
or lager yeast, such as the woodyness of Wyeast #1028 or the raspberry
esters of Wyeast #2035 (fermented at 65F) and then finish off the rest
of the sugars with a more alcohol-tolerant yeast.

*************************
Jim writes:
> Well, I'm taking the plunge into the world of kegs. I found 4 5-gal
>soda kegs (with syrup - bleech!) for $5 each, regulator for $15, Co2
>tank for $20, and tap/dispenser for $15. (how are these prices, btw?)

Very good.

> I need to know what I need to do to these tanks before using them
>(besides replacing all the rubber seals as someone mentioned), and
>where to get parts, rebuild kits, etc. I've got a batch of beer ready
>to bottle, er, keg right about now....

I recommend, of course, that you replace all the rubber seals, and then
clean and sanitize (I recommend iodophor for SS -- some disagree with
me) the keg.  I simply fill the kegs with hot water, seal and shake,
dump, repeat.  I do this perhaps 5 or 7 times to get all the syrup
out of the keg.  If there's some dried on, you may have to let it soak.
Don't use hot water with the iodophor -- use cool water!  I know
that B.E.S.T. and B.T.F. iodophors have surficants, which should help
clean a bit also.  I recommend that you use plain water for the first
5 or 7 rinses and then iodophor on the last one.  I rinse then with
a little hot water or industrial beer (a good idea if you suspect your
water to have bacteria in it) -- just a couple of cans of Bud Lite
(nothing will live in that!) swished around and then dumped.  I pump
a half-gallon or so of each rinse out of the keg with CO2 to clean the
inside of the dip tube and connector too.  Note that the makers of
iodophor say that if you let it air-dry, you don't need to rinse out
the iodophor.  I'm usually in a hurry, so I rinse either with hot
tapwater, boiling water or industrial beer that some of the well-meaning,
as-yet-uninitiated have left at my house during a party.

Keg reconditioning parts:  Foxx Equipment, KC, MO -- 1-800-821-2254.
Ask for Scott.  As much as I'd like to say you can get these parts
from me, I have neither the space nor capitol at this time to stock
the 100 or so parts for all the various kegs... perhaps some day...
till then, Foxx is the best place I've found.

**************************
WAK writes:
>always wanted someone to answer.  I've read (Jackson and elsewhere)
>that the lambic brewers in Belgium use old hops, like up to 2 years
>old!  The most sensible explanation I've read is that the aging
>removes most (all?) of the bittering capability of the hops but
>they still impart an important flavor to the beer.  So my questions
>for you hop experts are:  What's left in two year old hops?  What
>varieties are used for lambic?  Should I buy a couple of pounds of
>hops now and put them in my 90F garage so I can start brewing
>lambic-type beers in two or three years?

2 to 3 years old, actually.  This aging removes virtually all the
bittering and (in my experience) flavoring potential of the hops.
It is the preservative quality of the hops that still remains and
is what is desired.  My suggestion is to strike a deal with a
retailer in which you will buy his/her old whole hops (pellets
age much more slowly and unpredictably) at a discount when they
get fresh hops in.  By the way, I used 3 ounces of 1.5 year old
Hallertauers, baked for 20 minutes at 250F.  Also, I suggest that
you use hops such as Hallertauer, Saazer, Tettnanger, Mt. Hood,
Liberty, and East Kent Goldings, and not hops such as Cascades
which have a characteristic aroma that is not normally associated
with Lambieks.  Also, if you age them yourself, high temperature
will increase the rate of aging, but make sure the humidity is
not too high or they may begin to mold.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 11:41:58 -0600 (CST)
From: John Mare <cjohnm at ccit.arizona.edu>
Subject: RE: Jever? Fresia? More on IPA

Chris Pencis asks about "Jever" and about "Fresia", what is the former,
where is the latter? "Jever Pils" is in my opinion one of the truly
exceptional German Pilsners, brewed in N. Germany near Hamburg. I tasted a
draught version on a recent beer tour of Britain, and was extremely
impressed with its exceptional hop aroma, its pleasant bitterness, and a
good malt presence. The hops used are Hallertau and Tettnanger, the latter
probably imparting the delightful aroma. I hope to find a bottled or kegged
version of this fine lager in the US. Any suggestions?
Friesland is that part of N. Germany adjacent to both Holland and Denmark. I
was not aware of the fact that the hops in "Jever" are from Friesland.

On another subject, Jim Busch in commenting on my earlier post re IPA's
noted the high OG (1.048) of the R&D Deucher's IPA which has a final ABV of
3.9%. Sorry Jim, a typo slipped in! The OG is 1.038, not 1.048 as
posted.This truly exceptional ale by Caledonian Brewery of Edinburgh is
available in Scotland and parts of England as "real ale" in cask (not keg!
They don't keg any of their beer!)
>From John's Alehouse, where "the ale cures what ails ye".

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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 15:31:44 -0400
From: Timothy J. Dalton <dalton at mtl.mit.edu>
Subject: Jever / Oostende / W66

> From: chips at coleslaw.me.utexas.edu (Chris Pencis)
> Subject: Jever....?
> 
> Ok, here's a question from my homebrewing partner...does anyone out
> there know anything about the beer Jever...on the label it says
> something about using "freisian herbs"  (where's fresia?!) ... does
> anyone know what these things are - has anyone tried to replicate this
> brew ... in general, can anyone give us the low down on this beer (its
> not in Jackson, Finch or anywhere in Papazian) ... thanks.

Not sure if this is the one you mean, but I had
Jever Pils on tap in Eidelstadt (hope I spelled it
right) just outside of Hamburg.  It was local to the area.
I think I also saw some info on Jever in Jackons large beer book
(what ever the name way be), even had a a picture of the Jever
brewmaster holding his 5 litre glass of Jever Pils!!!

Can't help with the Herbs.
				
> From: Dave Justice <DD24005 at UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>
> Subject:      Trip to Belgium
> 
>  Greetings! I hope this an appropriate question for this forum. I'm off
>  to Europe 2 weeks from today and could use some suggestions on beer and
>  brewing related places to visit in Belgium. I'll be there 2-3 days,
>  arriving in Oostende and eventually making my way to Bonn, Germany.
>  I suppose anywhere in the country is possible since it's fairly small.

Unfortunately, my experience in Belgium is limited to Oostende, as thats
where I was to drop off a rental and get on the ferry to Dover,
but there is a bar in Oostende, across from the ferry terminal
that served generic 'trappist dark and trappist blonde'
Very good beers.  One of the standouts of European beers,
after a week in southern Germany!
If you can visit this bar, its a great little place, sorry I don't remember
the name. (strange how that happens)

> From: "Dennis Lewis"  <DLEWIS at jscdh6>
> Subject:      Weihenstephan #66

Sorry for the personal note:  Dennis, I've tried emailing you and
all paths bounce.  Please email me a good path or address.

	Tim	

- ----
Timothy J. Dalton                                   tjdalton at mit.edu
MIT, Dept. of Chemical Engineering, Materials Etching Technology Lab

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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 15:58:18 EDT
From: bszymcz%ulysses at relay.nswc.navy.mil (Bill Szymczak)
Subject: Re: Jever Corrections

In the last digest I tried to answer Chris Pencis question about Jever:

>>Ok, here's a question from my homebrewing partner...does anyone out
>>there know anything about the beer Jever...on the label it says
>>something about using "freisian herbs"  (where's fresia?!) ... does
>>anyone know what these things are - has anyone tried to replicate this
>>brew ... in general, can anyone give us the low down on this beer (its
>>not in Jackson, Finch or anywhere in Papazian) ... thanks.

To which I responded:

>I had the pleasure of having Jever (pronounced yay-ver) while in
>Ekenforde, Germany last year.  This is a beer in the north German
>pilsener style, which in general is very dry with lots of hop
>bitterness, but Jever is even more so.  I think the "fresnian herbs"
>are simply referring to the flavoring hops used, which give a nice
>spiciness to this beer.  I'm not sure which type although I would
>guess Satz.  When I first tasted this beer I thought it was too 
>bitter for my tastes, but since returning home, I've been longing 
>for more.

>By the way, Jever is mentioned in Jackson's pocket guide, in
>the northern German section (I don't have my copy handy).  It 
>is one of his 4 star beers.  Fresnia is the name of a province in
>Northwestern Germany.

This beer is also described in Jackson's New World Guide to Beer.
According to Jackson the hops used is Tetnang.  The region in
Germany is called Fresland, not Fresnia.  Jackson also has a 
picture of the head brewer holding up a 5 liter glass of Jever.

Bill Szymczak
bszymcz at ulysses.nswc.navy.mil

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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 14:33:26 PDT
From: Robert Pulliam <Robert_Pulliam at rand.org>
Subject: Counterflow Chiller


    If anyone has an easy-to-build plan for a counterflow chiller and
would send me a copy, I'd greatly appreciate it.

			      THANKS

Robert J. Pulliam            |+|all thoughts, statements, and opinions,|+|
Los Angeles, CA.             |+|demented or not, should be my own; and |+|
pulliam at monty.rand.org       |+|I'm certainly not associated . . . . . |+|

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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 17:51:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ignatios Alexander <ia0n+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Is a trip to Yakima worthwhile?


In August I am planning to visit Seattle and make side trips to Portland,
Oregon and Yakima, Washington.  I've been to some brewpubs in Seattle and the
Tumwater (Olympia) brewery . 

Is the trip to Yakima worth it to visit Grant's?  Are there other breweries 
or brewpubs in Yakima?  What else is there in Yakima?

What are the best breweries and brewpubs in Portland?


Ignatios Alexander
Pittsburgh, PA


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Date:    Mon, 19 Jul 93 17:06 CDT
From: "Michael Barre" <MBARRE at NOMVS.LSUMC.EDU>
Subject: Batch #2 and Cheap Carboys

Firstly, I would like to thank everyone who sent suggestions for
improving my brew methods.  Reading TNCJOH more closely, I noticed that
Papazian stated that you MUST use the blow off method for the primary
fermentation when using pellettized hops, which I neglected to do.  My
second batch, made from Wyeast American Ale, Northwestern malt extract,
Cluster hops, spring water and gypsum, has been in the primary fermentor
since Thursday and is beginning to settle down.  It smells as much
cidery as malty, but I am not worrying.

I seem to have found the cheapest carboys.  I called four or five
bottled spring water companies until I found one using glass.  I then
signed up to get 5 gallons of spring water every two weeks (the minimum
obligation) delivered to my house for $4.75 a carboy.  The first 10
gallons were free, and the deposit on the two carboys was $10.50.
Even the dispenser was free.

p.s.  Singing potatoes?


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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 18:27 CDT
From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
Subject: PPP

Boo hoo, there's a parking problem in Portland.
 
Well I don't know about the rest of you yahoos but I for one and
GLAD there's a parking problem in Portland.  I hope it rains the
whole crummy week (sniff).  Who the hell wants to go to Portland
anyway.  You couldn't PAY me to go there (sniff).  The city is just
a suburb of L.A. anyway and the people there couldn't tell you what
color the sun is.  The beer is lousy, the farm produce sucks, the
seafood is even worse and the scenery reminds you of the Jersey
Turnpike on acid (sniff sniff).  And another thing, don't even 
mention the word "slugs".
 
Glad I say.  Glad.

chris campanelli

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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 93 23:23:58 EST
From: Ulick Stafford <ulick at michaelangelo.helios.nd.edu>
Subject: Measuring color, how?

I have a beer that is somewhere around the color boundary for brown-
robust porter and would like to enter it in competition in the right category.
However, try as I might I could not find the definition of SRM or EBC
anywhere.  The best I found was Eckhard's conversion between the two.
I have access to spectrophotometers and sticking beer in is trivial if
I know what to do with the absorbance figures when I measure them.  So
can some kind soul out there please email me definitions of either or
both of these color conventions.
__________________________________________________________________________
 'Heineken!?! ... F#$% that s at &* ...  | Ulick Stafford, Dept of Chem. Eng.  
    Pabst Blue Ribbon!'               | Notre Dame IN 46556
                                      |    ulick at darwin.cc.nd.edu   


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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 8:19:08 CDT
From: raudins at galt.b17d.ingr.com (Glenn Raudins)
Subject: Samuel Smith/Anchor Brewery Yeast


  Thanks for the responses on burners for use in yeast culturing.  Just about
  everyone suggested a propane torch.  I got one, and it works great. Thanks.

  Samuel Smith and Anchor Brewery of Salisbury  (makers of Bishop's Tipple
	under the name of Gibbs Mew (?))

  I know this may be a shot in the dark, but living the `BAMA beer waste land
  I miss the smooth ale flavor these breweries produce.  Does anyone know of
  a sole who has slants of the yeast from either of these breweries?  It
  doesn't appear that Paul Farnsworth has them judging from his recent list.

Glenn Raudins
raudins at galt.b17d.ingr.com


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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 09:43:04 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: A request

I'd like to request that those of you whose e-mail addresses do not
easily imply a physical location (xxx.com, or xxxxx.yyyyy at compuserve.com,
e.g.) please include your city/state/country (whichever is most
appropriate) in your signature.  It's sometimes hard to give advice or
respond to a query without that information (e.g., when considering
availbility of materials, or fermentation temperatures, etc.).
Besides, I'm curious!

My signature (which I don't normally include, as it takes up extra
space, and "umich.edu" is self-explanatory, right ?:=)

=Spencer W. Thomas 		|  Info Tech and Networking, B1911 CFOB, 0704
   "Genome Informatician"	|  Univ of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu	|  313-764-8065, FAX 313-764-4133

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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 10:17:28 CDT
From: krueger at comm.mot.com (Kevin Krueger)
Subject: What happened to Sprecher??

What happened to Sprecher?  That is a loaded question.  

I just caught someone's comment about a barge hitting Sprecher?  Was
this discussed previously?  I went through my old HBD's and didn't see any
discussion about this event, so can someone please fill me in on the latest.

BTW, would the barge have anything to do with the downfall of Sprecher (in
my eyes)?  Yes, I said downfall.  I was there at Sprecher when it was but an
infant . . . when the tours were 5-6 people and the beer was better than sex.
Actually, I was only getting beer at the time, so it's an unfair comparison : at )

Anyway, I think Sprecher has gone downhill based mainly on the quality of the
recent beers I've had and also the fact that they use twist top bottles.  I
was a bar in Milwaukee recently and had their Special Amber and it was weak.
In fact, I even considered drinking Beck's Dark instead!  Even so, that hasn't 
been the first time that I thought their brew was weak.  What has happened
to the almighty Sprecher?!?!?!!?

Here is some news from the rumor mill . . . someone in Milwaukee please comment.
The East Side Lakefront down by the River Brewery has burnt down.  Is this true?
I heard it was the brewery and I also heard it was just the store for the 
brewery.  Beans and Barley  and the dance hall Esoterica also went up in 
flames (for those present and former East Siders.)

Kevin

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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 10:32 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Hotbreak

 
 >From: korz at iepubj.att.com
 
 >but since the Electrim Bins are quite popular in the UK, perhaps Line's
 experience has been with these types of heat sources and not with
 the significantly hotter heat sources some of us are using (I know
 brewer's around here using upwards of 100,000BTU burners!  Jack?
 Tim?).
 
 Like Pavlov's dog, I respond to my name.
 
 I don't have a clue as to how to determine tthe BTU's of my heat source but 
 it is a NG/forced air furnace I designed for melting aluminum for MM 
 castings.  It will melt 4 lbs of aluminum in 20 minutes.  However, it is not 
 terribly efficient when used to boil beer because the flame is directed 
 horizontally instead of up toward the kettle.  I put a firebrick in at a 45 
 deg angle to help facilitate that.  Having said all that, it will boil 14 
 gallons of wort furiously and I normally do not run it wide open.
 
 I previously reported an interesting experience when I recently made a batch 
 of EASYBEER on the kitchen stove to verify the procedure in the EASYMASHER 
 brewing instructions.  My stove barely will boil 6 gallons of wort but I 
 managed to evaporate the required amount of liquid in the 90 minutes alotted 
 and produce a decent beer. What was noteworthy was the fact that the 
 coagualted protein floating around was several orders of magnitude larger 
 than what I am used to seeing in my normal, more vigorous boil.  Clearly the 
 size of the so-called "hot break" is totally irrelevant and it is the 
 quantity that settles out after chilling that is important.  The vigor of the 
 boil seems only to effect the amount of time it takes to achieve the 
 evaporation required.
 
 I would also like to propose that the "hot break" phenomenon could be more 
 easily comprehended if we just changed the term to aglomeration, coagualation 
 or some other such expression.  "Break" implies that there is some sort of 
 sudden transition when, in fact, there is no such thing.  It is a continuous 
 process that gradually diminishes as the boil proceeds.
 
 js
 
 

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1186, 07/21/93