FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Mailing Brew (Rich Ryan)
  rebottling (Montgomery_John)
  someone asks about cardamom (Tony Babinec 312 329-3570)
  slowing fermentation (Peter OConnor)
  Brewpubs/Micro's ("Tom Stolfi")
  Re: Hop Harvest '93 & Beer of the month club ("Pamela J. Day 7560")
  Fusel Alcohols; Lipids (George J Fix)
  re Brewpubs in Utah (Mark Taratoot)
  Hops in San Francisco Canyon NM (seiferth)
  yeast & oxidation (dassemiri)
  Competition Announcement (Jack Baty)
  Grain at mash / DME prime /Recirculate (Lee=A.=Menegoni)
  Re:  fermenting with reckless abandon (korz)
  Silver Solder on wort boilers (Wayde Nie)
  Silver Solder on wort boilers (Wayde Nie)
  Fermenting with wild abandon (Aaron Morris)
  cheap beer contest (Paul Boor)
  Re: CO2 Connection Questions (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Cranberry Beer (Mr. Raytrace)
  cherry beer (Beth Bradley)
  Samuel Smith's Pale Ale & Oatmeal Stout (Jim Graham)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 07:47:50 -0400
From: Rich Ryan <ryancr at install4.swin.oasis.gtegsc.com>
Subject: Mailing Brew


I recently received an entry form for an AHA sponsored
homebrew event. Since the event is located miles away I
will have to mail the bottles. A friend of mine said the
US Postal Service has regulations forbidding this. He
said that some of the private carriers may or may not
have similar restrictions. Can anyone tell me definititvely
what the regulations are? If this has already been
discussed before private emails are fine.

Rich Ryan
GTE
Chantilly, VA
ryancr at swin.oasis.gtegsc.com


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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 08:25:00 CST
From: Montgomery_John at lanmail.ncsc.navy.mil
Subject: rebottling

    I have recently bottled (several weeks ago) an entire five gallon 
batch of Kolsch in Grolsch bottles (Kolsch in Grolsch ?...Hey, I'm a 
poet and don't know it but my feet show it cuz they're Longfellows :) ). 
    Anyway, since then, I found that a local brewpub is sponsoring an 
Oktoberfest/Homebrew competition and I would really like to enter this 
beer for critique. Those who have submitted beers in competitions now 
see my dilemma - I can't enter the beer in a Grolsch bottle. So I'm 
considering rebottling a number of them in the required brown 12 oz. 
longnecks.
    What is the collective wisdom on this? Should I "supercool" the beer 
and decant it very slowly into the longnecks so as not to disturb the 
brew?...Will I lose the carbonation? Anybody ever done anything like 
this?

    Thanks, 
     john

<montgomery_john at lanmail.ncsc.navy.mil>



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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 09:06:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec 312 329-3570)
Subject: someone asks about cardamom

The dictionary describes cardamom thusly:  "A tropical Asiatic
perennial plant, Elettaria cardamomum, having large, hairy leaves
and capsular fruit, the seeds of which are used as a condiment and
medicine."  Cardamom is used as a seasoning in Asian cooking,   
especially Indian cooking.  Specialty food stores carry cardamom
seeds, while your favorite grocery store has crushed cardamom in
the spice section.  When fresh, cardamom has (to me) a lemon-citrus
flavor note.  I've used it as a "secret" ingredient in small amounts  
in wit and strong Belgian ale recipes.  While there are lots of ways
to add spices, what has worked for me is adding some in the last 
10 minutes of the boil.

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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 10:55:39 EDT
From: poconnor at lager.tn.cornell.edu (Peter OConnor)
Subject: slowing fermentation

Eugene asks how to slow down an unruly fermentation.  How about cooling down
the fermenting vessel.  It usually slows fermentation without changing the
flavor.  It will mean longer fermentation times.  -Pete

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Date: 21 Sep 1993 09:59:09 GMT
From: "Tom Stolfi" <WAUTS at cwemail.ceco.com>
Subject: Brewpubs/Micro's

From: Tom Stolfi                                   WAUTS    - CWE1IIN
To: Open-Addressing Application for Internet Acc INLINE   - CWEMAIL
Subject: Brewpubs/Micro's

If anyone knows of any Brewpubs/Micro's in the Morgantown,West Virginia or
Albuquerque, New Mexico area please forward the info to me via private email
at wauts at cwemail.ceco.com.  Thanks in advance.

Tom Stolfi
wauts at cwemail.ceco.com











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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 11:14:00 EST
From: "Pamela J. Day 7560" <DAY at A1.TCH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hop Harvest '93 & Beer of the month club

I planted my risomes (2 Cascade, 2 Chinook & 1 willamette) in late
April. I live about 40 miles northeast of Boston on the NH border,
so we have a decent growing season. My Chinook did great, they grew
about 15 up the side of my house and I got a sandwich bag full of 
hops. The cascade grew well too, about 12 feet, but didn't produce 
any hops. The Willamette, was a disappointment, it never came up. 
It sent out roots,(I dug it up to check on it) but it never sent 
any vines. I was reassured by the people I got them from that it 
will do something next year, but I have my doubts. Has anyone else
had a similar experience?

Regarding Beer of the Month Club, I have a subscription to one called 
Beer Across America, for details e-mail direct, Day at a1.tch.harvard.edu

Cheers! P. Day
 

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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 09:22:41 -0500
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Fusel Alcohols; Lipids

Greetings one and all!

The article I wrote on fusel alcohols that appeared in the last issue of
Zymurgy had the following typographical errors:
  
     (1) The last part of the second paragraph on page 32 was truncated. It
         should read as follows:

          " ...widespread agreement about the implications that brewing 
            procedures and brewing materials have on fusel alcohol levels.
            Some of the most important of these points will be discussed
            in this article."

      (2)  The sentence on page 33 stating that aromatic alcohols were
           volatile should read
  
            " These are also non-volatile, and are characterized by the
              presence of aromatic rings."

       (3) I have no idea where the crazy structure shown at the bottom
           of page 33 (first column) came from. It is certainly not Tyrsol.
           The correct structure can be found on page 64 of my book on
           brewing science.


I have received a lot of private e-mail concerning the Jones/Millspaw article
that appeared in Zymurgy, and in particular about the general question of
"lipid enhancement". It is well known that lipids can be used by yeast as 
a replacement for O2. Turbid wort is rich in lipids, and if this is carried 
over to the fermenter, there is less neeed to aerate the wort before pitching.
This has been exploited by high gravity brewers (primarily in the the UK) to
lessen the O2 demand of yeast used to ferment worts with OEs of order 18 P
(1.074). My problem with this practice comes from my experience that fatty  
acids derived from trub are major players in beer staling. This may not be a
major issue with homebrew that is afforded pristine care. However, it could
be an issue for beer that is shipped (to competitions or friends), and is 
subject to mechanical and/or thermal abuse. In any case, it appears from
my own brewing experiences that failure to properly clarify wort can be
a destabilizing factor for most beers.

George Fix



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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 10:34:10 -0600 (MDT)
From: Mark Taratoot <SLNDW at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: re Brewpubs in Utah

Mike ONeil asked about brewpubs in Utah and Arizona.

There are three brewpubs that I know of in Utah.  Squatters in Salt
Lake City, Eddie McStiffs in Moab, and Ebenezers in Ogden.

Squatters is the oldest, and they produce some fine offerings.  Last
time I was in SLC, they had cask conditioned real ale.  The stout is
OK.  The pale ale is lacking something, but after all, this is a 
3.2% (control) state and I am sure most of their customers do not
like lots and lots of beer flavor.

Ebenezers is housed in a beautiful structure in Ogden.  The beer 
is too cold, and it does not have much beer flavor.  They usually
have 4 offerings, one of which is a seasonal brew.

Eddie McStiffs has a tasty stout.  I was not impressed with their
pale.  I guess Utah is not a good place to get pale ale, unless you
make your own.

Hope this helps.

 -toot


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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 10:49:47 MDT
From: seiferth at cs.unm.edu
Subject: Hops in San Francisco Canyon NM

Last year there were a number of people who had visited the canyon
and reported wild hops there.  Has anyone returned this year?
I'd like to go pick some but don't want to make the 5 hour drive
unless it will bear some "fruit".

Justin
seiferth at lyra.plk.af.mil

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Date: Mon, 20 Sep 93 21:27:59 EDT
From: dassemiri at aol.com
Subject: yeast & oxidation

 I've been a lurker since I subscribed to this digest, and have enjoyed the
letters and information a great deal. Here's my question:
 Has anyone tried to culture the yeast from Double Diamond? Is it used purely
for conditioning, or is this the yeast used for the actual fermentation?
Also:
  I've only made one excursion away from extract brews, using a partial mash,
and I hope to go further in this direction. Can anyone explain the dangers of
oxidation DURING mashing? I thought it was only a concern after fermentation
began, but Miller's book leads me to beleive that this is not the case.
   Thanks and, to all those migratory folks from *P-land... pros't!
   steveinmassachusetts


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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 13:15:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: jack at wubios.wustl.edu (Jack Baty)
Subject: Competition Announcement

 The annual St. Louis Brews Happy Holidays Homebrew Competition will take
 place on 18 December.  Entry deadline is 22 November.  This is an
 AHA-sanctioned competition,

 ASCII files containing competition rules (comprule.txt), entry form
 (compform.txt), and bottle entry forms (bottle.txt) are available via
 anonymous ftp from the /pub subdirectory of sirronald.wustl.edu
 (IP Number: 128.252.150.1).  If you can't use anonymous ftp you can request
 the files from jack at wubios.wustl.edu.

 Additional judges are always welcome.  We will have Beds for Brewers
 available.
- -- 
Jack Baty  jack at wubios.wustl.edu
Division of Biostatistics   Washington University Medical School   St. Louis
If you don't think too good then don't think too much.

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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 09:19:08 EDT
From: Lee=A.=Menegoni at nectech.com
Subject: Grain at mash / DME prime /Recirculate

I agree with Al K's comments on DME priming.  Unless one boils it for a half 
hour or so and then chills you will get potential haze.  The small amount
of corn sugar used to prime will not cause off flavors.  Since I bottle
from keg secondaries and there is a fair amount of CO2 in the brew already
I use 1/3 cup per keg with my ales.  I don't provide additional carbonation to
lagers with sugar I force carbonated them, I do so because it took me so long
to brew (decoction) and ferment/lager I am concerned I may produce off aromas.  
Grain at mash out:  For dark brews I add grains at mash out it makes the
iodine test easier to read.  For lighter colored brews I mash all the grain.
 
When I sparged my recent brew I used Rob Thomas suggetion of testing for 
starch.  When the liquid tested negative I declared this to be "clear" and
began collecing wort even though the run off was some what opaque.  Does the
matter in suspension contain lipids mentioned in a previous post?  Is clear
another of those vague terms that we find in brewing references?  


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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 13:32 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re:  fermenting with reckless abandon

Eugene writes:
>        I am having a problem with a current all-extract wheat beer I'm
>making.  I have made this same recipe several times, but this is only the
>second time I have used a liquid yeast (Wyeast Bavarian Wheat).  The
>problem is that it's fermenting so wildly, that it blows the sanitizing
>solutions out of my one-way valve and then fills the valve with foam.  The
>other time I used this yeast, it fermented quickly, but not so violently. 
>I'm still using the cave-man equipment of a single stage fermenter made out
>of high grade plastic.  My question is "Is there a way to slow down the
>fermentation a bit?".  If not, is there a way I can clear out some of the
>foam while minimizing the risk of polluting my beer?

The way to slow down your fermentation is to lower the temperature -- if
this is possible with your fermentation room.  If you are fermenting in the
basement, if you patiently search around the basement with a thermometer,
you can usually find a cooler corner.  Greg Lawrence, a fellow local
homebrewer, was having problems with too warm a fermenation room.  His
heat plant was in there, plus the dryer, plus a refridgerator, plus the
beer itself was making a lot of heat.  He solved the problem by building
a sort of foam insulation box, which insulates his fermenters from the
room -- the three uninsulated sides of the box are the cement floor and
two cement walls of the foundation.  This effectively reduced the temp
a good 10 degrees (if I recall correctly).

Another method for fermenting in a cool place if you don't have a cellar
is to ferment outdoors in an insulated box with a thermostatically controlled
heater in there -- be careful to not burn anything down!  Some have used
an old refridgerator with a light bulb for the heat, but recall the light
damage that can result, so you'll have to figure out a way to get the heat
out of the bulb without the light.  Some kind of sheetmetal baffle system
painted with flat black engine (heat resistant) paint, might be the solution.

My initial thought was (no, not the blowoff method, Norm) to suggest a larger
fermenter, but you did mention that you were having this problem specifically
with a *WHEAT* beer.  I suspect that the fact that wheat malt is higher in
the proteins that give good head retention is why the kraeusen may be lasting
so long as to come out through the airlock hole.  If, indeed this is why you
are having this problem, perhaps even a lower fermentation temp may not help.

I used to be a strong supporter of the blowoff method, but I've begun to have
my doubts.  My doubts began when I brewed my 1120 OG Lithuanian Imperial Stout.
The head retention on this beer's kraeusen was so good that not only did the
fermenter blowoff into the 1-gallon blowoff vessel (a plastic milk jug), but
the kraeusen of the blowoff vessel foamed all over the place!  I cleaned up,
dumped the blowoff vessel, added fresh water and let it finish.  When I went
to bottle the beer, I found some blowoff behind the fermenter that had dried
like a piece of styrofoam!  This is when I first began to suspect that perhaps
head-retaining proteins were being lost in the blowoff.

I plan to test this theory.

Despite this, if you cannot contain your kraeusen, I suggest that attaching
a hose (the wider diameter the better -- my blowoff hoses are 1" ID"!) and
putting the "out-end" into a bucket or jug partially filled with water is
safter than skimming or the procedure you described in your post.

Al.

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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 14:57:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Wayde Nie <u9106857 at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca>
Subject: Silver Solder on wort boilers

Hi All,
	What is the collective net wisdom on using silver solder to
install the fittings into to base of a converted keg style boiler. I
would think that soldering would be less of an undertaking than
paying someone to weld SS.

                                      \\\
                                     (o o)
- ---------------------------------ooO--(*)--Ooo--------------------------------
  \|||/            |   Wayde Nie, u9106857 at McMail.CIS.McMaster.CA
  <o.O> bleah!     |
  ( v )     snort! |  "I stayed up all night playing poker with Tarot cards...
 --"-"--  	   |   I got a full house and four people died!"
  *Bill The Owl*   |					Steven Wright
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 14:57:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Wayde Nie <u9106857 at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca>
Subject: Silver Solder on wort boilers

Hi All,
	What is the collective net wisdom on using silver solder to
install the fittings into to base of a converted keg style boiler. I
would think that soldering would be less of an undertaking than
paying someone to weld SS.

                                      \\\
                                     (o o)
- ---------------------------------ooO--(*)--Ooo--------------------------------
  \|||/            |   Wayde Nie, u9106857 at McMail.CIS.McMaster.CA
  <o.O> bleah!     |
  ( v )     snort! |  "I stayed up all night playing poker with Tarot cards...
 --"-"--  	   |   I got a full house and four people died!"
  *Bill The Owl*   |					Steven Wright
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date:         Tue, 21 Sep 93 15:24:31 EDT
From: Aaron Morris <SYSAM at ALBANY.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject:      Fermenting with wild abandon


esonn1 at cc.swarthmore.edu queries:
> ...                                    "Is there a way to slow down the
> fermentation a bit?".  If not, is there a way I can clear out some of the
> foam while minimizing the risk of polluting my beer?....

Eugene,
   You don't want to slow down your fermentation.  You should use different
equipment.  Rather than using a fermentation valve, substitute a stopper
with a hose that runs into a bottle of H2O with a few campden tablets
disolved in it.  The foam that is clogging your fermentation valve will
pass thorugh the tubing into the jar of water/campden solution.  The system
will be a closed system and will keep any airborne nasties out of your
brew.  When the primary fermentation has settled down, remove the
stopper and replace it with a fermentation valve.  I routinely use such a
set up when brewing mead (which has a rather violent primary fermentation
                                  _________
                                 //-------\\
                               _||||_     ||
                              /  ||  \    ||
                             /________\   ||
                             |        |   ||
                             |        |   ||
                             |  BREW  |  /||\
                             |        | |-||-|
                             |        | |H2O |
                             |________| |____|

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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 15:47:55 -0600
From: Paul Boor <PBOOR at beach.utmb.edu>
Subject: cheap beer contest

My nomination for cheap beer goes to Goebel's (tm) lager purchased here in
Galveston, TX at $3.99 for a twelve pak.  It's great stuff, but how it ever
made it down here to our subtropical island from Detroit MI, I haven't the
foggiest.  I had read about "lawnmower beer" in the HBD, but when I put this
stuff in my lawnmower, the thing conked out.  I like drinking it better anyway

        pboor

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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 15:02:20 PDT
From: megatek!hollen at uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: CO2 Connection Questions

>>>>> "Chris" == Chris Cook <COOK at CDHF2.GSFC.NASA.GOV> writes:

Chris> A question about kegging and counter-pressure bottle fillers.
Chris> How do people change fittings to CO2 systems?

Chris> I have one CO2 tank that I use for everything.  That means:

Chris>   1) Storing beer. 2) Serving beer at group events.  
Chris>   3) Counter-pressure bottle filling.

Chris> The only way I can connect and disconnect this stuff is to get
Chris> the wrenches out, and I worry about the wear and tear for the
Chris> connections and nylon bushings (which I usually drop at least
Chris> once).

What nylon bushings?  None of the flare fittings I have have any nylon
bushings and unless you are a gorilla on your wrenches, you should
have no trouble with repeated coupling/uncoupling of flare fittings.

Chris> Is there an easier way to make changes?  Are there
Chris> quick-disconnects for the line, or some such?  How do other
Chris> people work with CP fillers?

Sure, you could use any number of different disconnects, only they
will cost you in the range of $15 to $20 per part at wholesale prices.
I just get out the wrenches every time I want to use the CP filler.
No hassle at all.  You could also get a distribution block which is a
brass block with 6 threaded holes, one input and five output with
check valves and ball valves.  Hook up to your heart's content any
combination of things.

Dion Hollenbeck (619)455-5590x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Senior Software Engineer                      megatek!hollen at uunet.uu.net
Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California    ucsd!megatek!hollen

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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 17:31:24 PDT
From: rkaye at denali.csc.calpoly.edu (Mr. Raytrace)
Subject: Cranberry Beer

The holiday season will soon be upon us and it is time to brew up some
ales for Xmas time. I'd like to try my hand at brewing a beer that
uses cranberries. I was a little bit disappointed by Sam Adams'
Cranberry Lambic last year -- I'd like something with more cranberry
bang.

Does anyone have a good recipe for a cranberry ale laying around? Or,
better yet, just some tips on how to use cranberries in the brewing
process. I'm aware of the pectin problem; I'm more curious of what
quantities of cranberries should be used. Also, is it ok to let
the cranberries steep in the wort after the wort is done boiling??

 -ruaok

Robert Kaye -- rkaye at denali.calpoly.edu

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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 21:19:36 EDT
From: ae877 at freenet.buffalo.edu (Beth Bradley)
Subject: cherry beer



Hi,  I'm new to the list(and really enjoying it) but not too
new to homebrewing.
I have a nice can of Kangabroo Lager and about 4 cups of homemade 
cherry juice(also some homegrown cascade hops).  I was going to 
put the cherry juice in at the beginning of the boil along
with everything else but after reding the postings about
fruit additves to beer I'm totally confused.  Now I'm
thinking of adding the juice right at the end just before
bottling.  I would appreciate any suggestions.

- --
WHILE WE HAVE PRISONS IT MATTERS LITTLE

WHICH OF US OCCUPIES THE CELLS.  -G.B.S.

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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 20:04:24 -0600 (CDT)
From: jim at n5ial.mythical.com (Jim Graham)
Subject: Samuel Smith's Pale Ale & Oatmeal Stout

Note the Reply-To address listed in my .signature---please direct replies
to me as n5ial!jim at gagme.chi.il.us.  This is temporary, but for the next
couple of weeks, it's very important.  I'd set the actual Reply-To field,
but in a digest, it would never appear anyways.....

Anyways, I was wondering if anyone had a recipe (extract or extract plus
specialty grain) for a clone of either Samuel Smith's Old Brewery Pale Ale
or Samuel Smith's Old Brewery Oatmeal Stout.

Alternatively, does anyone have a recipe for a good oatmeal stout?  One
sip from the Samuel Smith's oatmeal stout had me sold on this wonderful
variant....  (I've always been a fan of the Samuel Smith's Pale Ale...at
least, I have been for about 9--10 years or so.)  I must say, even though
I've had some pretty good stout in the past, the oatmeal stout beats all
of the others, hands down.

Oh, I should add this bit---I don't have a carboy.  I have a single-stage
fermenter, and zero money to buy a carboy.  If there is any way at all to
brew either variety in a single-stage process, please gear any responses
in that direction.  Otherwise, I'm still interested, if nothing else, for
future reference.

Thanks,
   --jim

- --
#include <std_disclaimer.h>                                  73 DE N5IAL (/4)
- -------------------------< Running Linux 0.99 PL10 >--------------------------
*** E-mail to me from now until roughly 2 Oct.:  n5ial!jim at gagme.chi.il.us ***
AMATEUR RADIO:  (packet station temporarily offline)       AMTOR SELCAL: NIAL
internet: jim at n5ial.mythical.com  |  j.graham at ieee.org     ICBM: 30.23N 86.32W
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E-mail me for information about KAMterm (host mode for Kantronics TNCs).


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1231, 09/22/93