FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
   (Bob Jones)
  Calling Columbus OH Homebrewers (Vincent Heuring)
  Mo' Betta Decoction (Lee=A.=Menegoni)
  Wyeast London Barleywine/Antibacterial Hops (korz)
  Bottle washing (EDM9743)
  Re: Treacle & Other Brit Sugars (Mark_Davis.osbu_south)
  Hard Water (Rob Skinner)
  pH and leaching tannins (Ed Hitchcock)
  The Beer Machine (Jill Martz)
  yeast & glycogen (Russell Gelinas)
  beer labels (Chuck Wettergreen)
  Re: Kegging FAQ (Dion Hollenbeck)
  church keys and bad address in ca (David Atkins)
  HSA - another view (msharp)
  Sour brown crabtree HSA scaremongery (Ulick Stafford)
  Miscellany/Crabtree (npyle)
  Sanitation and Priming (J. Fingerle)
  Sam Adams Cranberry "Ale" (lyons)
  Hop Oils as a Preservative (Mark Garetz)
  Re: Dry Hopping and Infections (Drew Lynch)
  Lactose-Acid brew/ Ciders / REAL Bathtub Brew /BeerMachine (COYOTE)
  Stepping up to a 5 gallon boil (Paul Ferrara)
  for publication (Chris Mix)
  british ale liquid yeast (G.Leake)
  Panic Over Sugar (Jeff Frane)
  Acid rest (korz)
  Dry Hopping Infections/Tate & Lyle Golden Syrup and Treacle (korz)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 13:25:39 +0800
From: bjones at novax.llnl.gov (Bob Jones)
Subject: 

I would like to see some reviews of some of the software packages out there 
for brewing related usage. These reviews would be from people who have used 
these programs and can list the programs strong and weak points. I think we 
all could benefit from these reviews.
Bob Jones
bjones at novax.llnl.gov



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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 15:15:40 -0700
From: Vincent Heuring <heuring at riker.cs.colorado.edu>
Subject: Calling Columbus OH Homebrewers



I want to give "The Gift of Homebrewing" to a relative that lives
in Columbus OH, for Christmas. My plan is to buy the extract, yeast,
and small supplies here in Boulder and send them to him, and to
make arrangements with some homebrew supply store in Columbus to
prepay them for a carboy and boil pot.

Would some kind Columbus homebrewer please mail me the phone numbers
and addresses of a couple of the better supply stores in Columbus?

- ---
 Vincent Heuring   Dep't of Electrical & Computer Engineering
 University of Colorado at Boulder      Boulder CO 80309-0425
 heuring at cs.Colorado.EDU   o) 303-492-8751    h) 303-449-8868

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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 93 16:59:49 EST
From: Lee=A.=Menegoni at nectech.com
Subject: Mo' Betta Decoction

A recent post describes the process they use for decoction in which they use
a strainer to leave liquid behind and add water to the kettle mash.  This
may be a problem for 2 reasons.
1) The ph of this kettle mash may be high and tannin extraction may occur
2) The amount of enzymes in the kettle mash may be low and the conversion
    slow or incomplete

Using the strainer may be a good way of getting the "thickest 1/n" but
I would add enough of the liquid from the main brew pot to keep the
kettle mash from scorching or sticking.  This assumes that the main mash's
PH has been tested and is in range. When its time to boil the
addition of a little more liquid may be needed. Acidified sparge water
is OK as is liquid from the main mash, which is at protein rest temp.

Most brewers I know don't use an acid rest, except after 6 Dead shows, they
do a single decoction using about 40-50% of the grain.  It is important to
do a sufficently long kettle mash since you are deactivating 40-50% of the
enzymes.  They mash out by adding boiling acidified sparge water to the
cooler mash/lauter tun or heat the metal brew put on a stove .

Lee Menegoni  

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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 93 14:37 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Wyeast London Barleywine/Antibacterial Hops

Norm writes:
Brian Seay asks about barley wine fermentation.  <snip>
 ...DON'T USE WYEAST LONDON ALE YEAST (1028)!!!

To which I reply:
BRIAN AND LINDA NORTH BREWED BEST-OF-SHOW BARLEYWINE USING WYEAST LONDON ALE!!!

No, seriously, perhaps Wyeast #1028 is a less alcohol tolerant strain than
some of the others, but it can be used for Barleywines.  I did see Brian and
Linda at the CBS competition, but forgot to ask them the particulars as I
had promised.  Perhaps I should call.

***************************
Several posters have suggested that it's the alpha acids in the hops that
are antibacterial.  I'm confident that the antibacterial qualities of the
hops are in the lupulin, but would hazard a guess that they are not in
the alpha acids.  Recall that Lambiek brewers use aged hops so that they
don't impart bitterness, but (according to J.X.Guinard) their antibacterial
qualities are still available.  It's the oxidation of the alpha acids that
kills the alpha acid's bittering potential (beta acids are a different
story, but better left to another post) and I would imagine that if, indeed,
the alpha acids were responsible for the antibacterial qualities, then the
oxidation would have ruined them as well.

Al.

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Date: 18 Nov 1993 16:54:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: EDM9743 at UTARLG.UTA.EDU
Subject: Bottle washing

Hullo.  My name is Erich and my father and I would like any suggestions/info.
on bottle washing machines.  He modified an old dishwasher but I think that
he would like to improve it or replace it with a more suitable machine. 
Oh yes, and does anyone have any info. on recipe software for the IBM  
(Windows would be perfect but far from required)?

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Date: 	Thu, 18 Nov 1993 11:16:56 PST
From: Mark_Davis.osbu_south at xerox.com
Subject: Re: Treacle & Other Brit Sugars


>No, you cannot buy treacle in the U.S.,

Hmmm,
   I just purchased Lyle's Treacle form a homebrew store here in California. If
anyone wants the stuff(I would agree that it tastes like a strong Blackstrap
molasses) then they can contact:

   The Home Wine and Brewing shop
   22836 Ventura Blvd.
   Woodland Hills, Ca.
   (818)884-8586
   Store Hours: Fri-Mon 10:30-5:30

   Lyle's Golden syrup is a pure, refined cane syrup(it has a wonderful, rich
caramel flavor). I have been using this in place of Candi sugar(per a
recommendation for a member of the Lambic digest) for Belgian abby ales. Works
wonders for this as I do not have to boil all night to get that caramel flavor.

Cheers,
Mark

- --disclaimer-- I have no ties, either personal or finacial, to the Home Wine
and Brewing shop. Just a happy customer :->

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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 93 16:51:00 +0800
From: rob.skinner at kandy.com (Rob Skinner)
Subject: Hard Water


 Tim writes:
>Here are the important numbers:
>Chloride  25ppm
>Sulfate     38ppm
>Calcium 54.5ppm
>CaCO3     140ppm
>Ph            7.7
>The CaCo3 seems high, particularly with the amount of calcium that
>is present.  What is my best course of action,

  Tim, I would certainly try to reduce the CO3 concentration.
  The other numbers look ok.  By adding 1/8 tsp. CaCl2 / gallon
  of water and boiling it for 20 minutes, you will reduce your
  carbonate to about 35ppm and your calcium to about 52ppm.
  Your chloride level will increase to about 78 ppm.

  I prefer to use calcium chloride rather than calcium sulfate
  because excessively high levels of sulfate can have an adverse
  effect on hop bitterness.  Also, my preference is to use this
  method on the mash water only, and treat my sparge water with
  lactic acid.  I add acid until the pH reaches about 5.3.

  All the chemistry info I use to adjust my water is contained in
  Dave Miller's Compete Handbook Of Homebrewing.

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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 09:36:37 -0400
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: pH and leaching tannins

Jack writes:

> That's a nice number but like so many things, it is only a bench mark.  What
> if the pH rose to 5.4 or 5.7... would it make a detectable difference?  I
> doubt it.
>.....
> In the real world, sparge water is run through the mash which has a powerful
> buffering effect on the water.   I run 10 or more gallons of pH 7 sparge
> water through my mash and it doesn't raise the pH more than a tenth point or
> so.  Furthermore, sparge water temp is not the same as mash temp nor does it
> bear any relationship to making tea with boiling water.
>
> Finally, it does not address the fact that boiling grain in decoction mashing
> does not seem to produce astringent beer.

	I know he's only baiting us, but I feel like a sucker this morning.
The mash has a buffering effect, yes.  As the goodies are drawn off, 
however, the pH does rise.  This is quite variable, and depends on the 
mineral content and buffering ability of your water supply, the types of 
grain used, the mashing technique, where the grain was grown and so on.  So 
jack has a nice acidic mash, and sparge water with low alkalinity.  Great.
If he tried his technique in, say, southwestern Ontario where the tap water 
is very full of carbonates, he would undoubetedly have very different 
results.  So as one sparges, the pH rises as the sugars and acidic 
compounds are drawn off, and replaced by neutral water.  The 5.3 figure is 
a guideline, and indeed a 5.4 pH might produce little or no more 
astringency.  It does indicate, however, that your pH is rising, and soon 
will reach a level that will extract noticeable quantities of tannins from  
the husks.  In the decotion mash, you have a thick mash which has not had 
the sugars and acids removed, so the pH stays low.  Where's the problem?

____________   
Ed Hitchcock	ech at ac.dal.ca	| Oxymoron:  Draft beer in bottles. |
Anatomy & Neurobiology		| Pleonasm:  Draft beer on tap.     |
Dalhousie University, Halifax	|___________________________________|

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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 10:15:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Jill Martz <SAL_MARTZ at sals.edu>
Subject: The Beer Machine

Just a reply to the person interested if anyone has experience with using
the Beer Machine, my dad recently purchased one along with some kits put
together by the manufacturer. He brewed two of them. The "beer" was a disaster
After forcing us to taste it and asking several people independently what it
smelled like he was told "green olives". He went to the homebrew store and of
course the owner tried to talk him out of using it, but sold him some malt
extracts etc. to make a batch. He attempted this the other day and could not
get it to seal properly. So it appears this "system" has several problems.
If anyone has had success I would appreciate hearing about it so I could pass
it on to my Dad. Thanks.
REply to : SMTP%"SAL_MARTZ at SALS.EDU"
                                       ...Jill

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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 10:14:32 -0500 (EST)
From: gelinas at ekman.unh.edu (Russell Gelinas)
Subject: yeast & glycogen

>It makes sense, but it's not the way that yeast actually works.  Just "before
>the kraeusen begins" the yeast have their glycogen level depleted.  According
>to experiments done by Pickerell, Hwang & Axcell (and reported in their
>paper: Impact of Yeast-Handling Procedures on Beer Flavor Development During
>Fermentation, 1991 American Society of Brewing Chemists, ASBC Journal,
>volume 49, no.2.) you want to wait till the high kraeusen has just ended
>to pitch your starter.  I have more info on this for anyone who is interested.

A few quick questions.  When is glycogen depleted? During respiration?
During fermentation also?  When is glycogen assimilated?  During fermentation?
Immediately following fermentation?

RussG.



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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 08:18:00 -0600
From: chuck.wettergreen at aquila.com (Chuck Wettergreen)
Subject: beer labels


Robert linder wrote in HBD 1276:

Rl> I have used Microsoft "Publisher" with satisfaction.  It allows
  > you to curve text instantly and import various bit-mapped
  > images.  Its price

I also have used MS Publisher, but found that Instant Artist is 
easier to use, cheaper ($49), and has many many more fonts and 
(especially) text and graphic modification features. For example, MSP 
has 2 preset text curves; in IA, you draw the curve and IA fits the 
text to it.

Chuck

 * RM 1.2 00946 * 

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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 08:53:20 PST
From: hollen at megatek.megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: Kegging FAQ

>>>>> "Norm" == npyle  <npyle at n33.stortek.com> writes:

Norm> What ever happened to the Kegging FAQ?

Oops!!  I posted to rec.crafts.brewing yesterday, but neglected to
post to HBD.  Here is what I said. 

My employer (to whom I owe my Internet Connection) has had me working
harder than usual and the Kegging FAQ has been put on a back burner
temporarily.  Just about as this happened, I had decided on a
different direction for it.  I had been going through every back issue
of HBD in the issues looking for questions and answers and had only
gotten through half of what is archived.  I finally decided that I
would edit the contributions which have been made (which are
substantial) and get that portion out, and then in a future release,
add what has been gleaned from the archives.  This is now my current
strategy and I hope to have something by the end of this month.
However, the bottom line is that I must keep my employer happy to keep
my Internet connection, or I can't post anything at all.

Sorry for the delay,

dion

Dion Hollenbeck (619)455-5590x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Senior Software Engineer                      megatek!hollen at uunet.uu.net
Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California    ucsd!megatek!hollen

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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 11:02 CDT
From: David Atkins <ATKINS at macc.wisc.edu>
Subject: church keys and bad address in ca

1)  Twist away with Sierra Nevada.  If they can make a better profit off of a
twist off bottle without making a worse beer, I will gladly use my church key
less.  Even Busch Lite comes in reusable bottles.  Don't judge a beer by it's
cap :-).  Of course, upon saying this, some rocket scientists will split my atom
with a scientific study, proving me wrong. :-)
 
2) James of UCDavis asked for new brewer info.  Well James, your address doesn't
work for me and my internet.  Rather beefy post that many hbd's would just skim
over.  I could save bandwidth with another address so I could post it personal.
Please send email to my address atkins at macc.wisc.edu if you still in the
market for some info.
 
Happy brewing,
David Atkins
UW-Madison

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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 09:24:13 PST
From: msharp at Synopsys.COM
Subject: HSA - another view

Hi folks,

Since HSA still seems to be a topic of discussion here:

Last night I was at the A-B plat in Fairfield, CA for the quarterly
MBAA meeting.  While there I was able to crawl through the bowels of
the brewery on a VIP tour lead by one of the plant managers who has
been in this business for ~21 years and worked his way up from the ranks.

So what does this have to do with HSA?
Well apparently their are two camps of thought.  The one which George
represented and the one which doesn't believe its anywhere near that
much of a problem.  Upon what do I base this?  During part of the
tour I was directly below the kettles looking at a large tank 
(~2 industrial stories high, 10'+ round) and I was told that this was
used for hot wort aeration.  This caught my off a bit so I asked for
a clarification.  I was told that immediately after boiling and prior to
cooling the wort is slowly dripped down through this tank against an
upward flow of 120F air.  This is done to simulate the aeration 
effect of the old technology coolers which where just a few stories
of tubing.  Later in the evening I had a long talk about this with
the same man over dinner where we got into why A-B does it this way, etc.

	--Mike

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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 12:43:58 EST
From: Ulick Stafford <ulick at michaelangelo.helios.nd.edu>
Subject: Sour brown crabtree HSA scaremongery

In hbd 1276 Jeff Frane poo-poo's Gregory Noonan's excellent sour mash
article in the Special Zymurgy (probably the article that makes the publication
worth while, IMNSHO), but seem to be mixing up acid rests and sour mashes.
A sour mash, the procedure for which is well decribed by Noonan, is of part
of the mash and takes place over days at 120F+.  An acid rest is of
the whole mash at around 100F, and uses enzyme reactions to reduce pH.  This
technique may take 20 hours and is only useful for soft water mashes.  The
technique described by Noonan is Reinheitgebot and works for harder water.

Try Howard asks about American Brown Ale.  The excellent Pete's Wicked Ale
won the GABF in 1992, so I assume it is a good example of the style.  May
the pedantics correct me if this is wrong :-).

Steve Zabarnick speculates that the Crabtree effect may not occur in 
dextrose primed bottles bacause it is only a small proportion of the
sugar.  However, since all other fermentable sugars are now gone, isn't
it the only fermentable sugar??

Carl Howes was one of many to correct me when I posted
> While this procedure is not correct - chilling in a bathtub or with a wort
> chiller prior to pouring is recommended, the amount of damage that could be
> expected due to hot side aeration is so slight that it is unlikely to be
> noticable.

 I have seen a huge improvement in flavor stability and beer quality since I
 started chilling the concentrated wort.  Have you tried it both ways, Ulick?

I apologize for understating a risk.  I should have said that the beer was
likely to be drinkable, rather than saying that the effect is unlikely to be 
noticable.  This was toned thus because I had received email from first time
brewers saying that they had just brewed like this wondering whether they pitch
and batch now?  I am sorry for erring on the side of RDWHAHB rather than erring
on the scaremonger side that is the HBD norm.

Talking about scaremongery Al K responded to my critique of his postings with
a repeat of his 'DON'T CHANGE YEAST AT BOTTLING \em{or your bottles will 
explode} ' earlier in the week.
Considering that most yeast are similarily attenuative this is an exaggerated
risk, and I am sure most homebrewers who change yeasts are aware of the danger.
Or are most of the Belgian brewers and Weizen brewers in the world wrong?
(he also spoke of what was appropriate for hbd again, my posting not being,
of course, which shows that he isn't totally cured of his superiority
complex.  Al K should consider that email response to me was running 80:20
in support of my posting, which may indicate that I wasn't the only one who
found his style irksome, just as he finds mine.  Which of us is right,
or is neither of us???).
__________________________________________________________________________
 'Heineken!?! ... F#$% that s at &* ...  | Ulick Stafford, Dept of Chem. Eng.  
    Pabst Blue Ribbon!'               | Notre Dame IN 46556
                                      |    ulick at darwin.cc.nd.edu   


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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 9:40:58 MST
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Miscellany/Crabtree

Mark Bunster writes:

>reasonable debate, EXCEPT: you are not making a Rheinheitsgebot beer when you
use corn sugar, for what that's worth to you.

IMNSHO, Rheinheitsgebot was written to circumvent a free market economy (price
controls) and as a protectionist measure against foreign imports.  Oh, and it
also helped keep some bad beer off the streets.  It was later used as marketing
tool and was made to sound like a very good thing.  That's what its worth to
me.

>maybe a 4 gal - 1 gal makes good sense. It's primitive, but for us
nontinkerers who are too poor to buy and too stupid to build a cf or
immersion chiller, it works quite well and goes faster than we imagined.

Too poor maybe, but nobody is too stupid to put together an immersion chiller
(hey, even I did it!).

**

Anyone tried this year's Coors Winterfest?  It is (this is no lie!) robust,
dark brown/red, balanced (surprise), and quite tasty.  There are even some
fruity components that make me wonder if it an ale.  From Coors?  No way!  It
certainly is an order of magnitude better than last year's boring amber lager.
Oh, it is still marketed as a stout, HA!  It is no stout but it is good beer.

**

Troy Howard, American brown ale IS Pete's Wicked Ale IMHO.

**

James Clark writes:

>I have just become interested in homebrewing and joined this list to find
helpful info for my first batch which I plan to start in December.  So far
the only knowledge I have of the subject comes from _The New Complete Joy
of Homebrewing_.  However, just from reading the first few articles in this
list I have found that even the most basic steps to brewing are a matter of
opinion (i.e. plastic fermenter vs. glass carboy)
Does anyone have any suggestions to give to a confused prospective homebrewer?

I suggest you follow the book you are reading.  Homebrewing is an evolutionary
process and if you are like me,  you will continually change your processes and
equipment, ad infinitum.  Don't let endless debate keep you from brewing and
enjoying your beer.

**

Pardon my igorance, but what is the Crabtree Effect supposed to do to my beer,
and why would one avoid it?  It seems it has to do with oxygen production, and
of course I know why I don't want oxygen in my beer at bottling, but could
someone explain the effect in greater detail?

Norm

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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 13:16:58 EST
From: fingerle at NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (J. Fingerle)
Subject: Sanitation and Priming


Somebody (did not save the post) was interested in how to 
sanitize the brass "jet washer" he was using to clean his
bottles.  Evidently, he thought that this might be the source
of some recent infections.  I'd like to comment in a tangential
way.

My bottle cleaning procedure is this:  after I decant a beer, I 
immeadiately rinse the bottle and store it upside down in a spare
beer case I keep in the kitchen.  When ready to bottle, I use
the jet washer gizmo with hot faucet water to rinse the bottle
out, then let the bottle drain in the dish strainer briefly. I then 
place the bottles in the oven and bake them to kill off any nasties.

Generally, I start at the lowest setting, and raise the oven temp 
to about 300F or so in 50F increments every 15 minutes or so.
I then let the oven cool several hours, or I crack the oven to speed
the process.

End result, sanitized, and possibly sterile bottles.  The only 
downside that I can see is that this temperature cycling might
eventually stress the glass, but so far, I have bottled 19 batches 
in this manner, using about 12x24 bottles, so obviously, many
of these have been through the procedure several times.

To give credit where due, this procedure did not originate with
me, I got it off of the digest probably 18 months or so ago.
************************
Now a question.  I'm in the mood to fool around with bottle
priming.  How much should I use to prime 
5 gallons with molassass or honey?
Does it make a difference if dark or light molassass is used?
What about various honeys?  Raw vs "processed" for example.
Will the priming material effect the finished beer's taste
(assuming a pale ale)?

Thanks!

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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 13:21:54 EST
From: lyons%adc1 at swlvx2.msd.ray.com
Subject: Sam Adams Cranberry "Ale"

>Ben writes:
>>        Sam Adams Cranberry Lambic
>>It was crisp, smooth, and had sensational flavor.

Al writes:
>I would encourage all homebrewers to discourage anyone from refering to
>this beer as "Lambic."  It is by no stretch of the imagination a Lambic.
>Lambics are spontaneously fermented by local yeasts and bacteria in the
>Zenne Valley in Belgium.  The Sam (tm) Adams (tm) product is nothing more
>than a Cranberry Ale and reference to the esteemed appellation "Lambic"
>is another unscrupulous marketing ploy by the Boston (tm) Beer (tm)
>Company (tm).

I have to agree with Ben's comments.  Maybe the "Sam Adams 
Cranberry Lambic" is not a true lambic, but it IMHO, it is a very 
tasty brew.

>I continue my boycott of Samuel Adams products!
Your loss.  Although Koch may be a slime bag, he makes a decent 
product.

Chris

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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 10:51:57 PST
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: Hop Oils as a Preservative

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 00:05:58 CST
Darrell Simon writes:


>It is possible that the hop flowers alone are not acidic enough to inhibit 
>the bacteria.  I would speculate that the preservative effect of hops
comes from the alpha acids extracted during the boil, and the increase in
>acidity.

Yes from the alpha acids, but the acids themselves are quite weak and won't
affect the acidity of the beer noticeably (otherwise we could use a pH
meter to measure alpha acids).

>You don't hear of the preservative qualities of hop aroma 
>although you do hear of the preservative qualities of hop bitterness.

Actually there are studies that show that hop oils (responsible for the
aroma) do have a preservative effect and do inhibit the growth of
bacteria.  And for an informal opinion, Fritz Maytag strongly believes
that dry-hopped beers last much longer (like 10-20 years) than beers that
are not dry hopped.  He bases this on tasting his Christmas Ales from 
many years ago (that he has in his own collection and that people send
to him).  He claims that a 17 year old Christmas Ale he tasted was still
quite good, but he admits it is not exactly the same as when it was brewed,
but certainly not spoiled.  Also historical data shows that IPAs (the
real ones destined for India by boat) were called for (by contract) to have
a high dry hopping level ("2 lbs of Kent hops per hogshead" which translates
to 2.47 ozs per five gallons).

Mark

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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 10:25:32 -0800
From: Drew Lynch <drew at chronologic.com>
Subject: Re: Dry Hopping and Infections 

  I have recently gotten past a really bad bacterial contamination
problems that left me with _many_ gallons of beer for use in the meat
smoker. All of these problems were evidenced by very low finishing
gravities, as well as cloudiness, bottle bombs, bad taste, gushers,
etc. I believe that the problems were due to sloppy brewing style, and
not enough attention to sanitation. (I brewed sloppily for 10 years
before I had any problems)

  Two weeks ago, I brewed a ten gallon batch of brown ale.  I got much
better than normal extraction rate, and ended up with 12 gallons of
wort split between two 7 gallon glass carboys, with a starting gravity
of 1.080.  I split a 1 litre starter of fresh Wyeast american ale
between the two.  After one week of fermentation, at 1.030, I racked
to two 5 gallon secondaries.  At this point, the two sub batches were
identical in taste and gravity.  I decided to dry hop one of the two
secondaries.  I sanitized some marbles in a mesh bag, and then filled
the bag with fresh Cascades.  I had a _lot_ of trouble getting the bag
through the neck of the carboy, but eventually it went in.

  This morning, I took gravity readings and tasted both sub-batches.
The non-dryhopped bottle was at 1.024, crystal clear, and tasted
great.  The dry hopped batch was at 1.014, cloudy, and astringent, and
I can only assume, infected.  There are three possiblities that I see:

1) unclean equipment used in the dry hopped sub batch - Very Unlikely

2) bacteria carried on hops into the beer - ???

3) Excessive handling with bare hands introduced bacteria into dry
   hopped batch - very likely

  Since I use a CF chiller, I will be building a hop-back for this
weekend's batch.  I _may_ attempt dry hopping again, but will use
rubber gloves, and no bag or marbles.

  Anyway, I feel that the idea that "bad stuff won't grow in fermented
wort" is incorrect, and care in sanitation need be taken at all steps
prior to drinking the beer.

			      Drew Lynch
		Chronologic Simulation, Los Altos, Ca.
			   (415)965-3312x18
			 drew at chronologic.com

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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 12:18:40 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Lactose-Acid brew/ Ciders / REAL Bathtub Brew /BeerMachine


*****
Al. sez:

>BTW, I'm not a biologist,
but I'll bet that Lactose is fementable by Lactobacillus, so be extra
careful with sanitation!  ...snip...   If you add lactose, you can
add it in the boil, or boil some up and add it at bottling time -- it's
*unfermentable*, so it doesn't matter as long as you sanitize it.  Adding at
bottling time also allows you to add it to taste, but be aware that the
beer will become a bit more acidic when it carbonates, so you may want to

*   I am a biologist FWIW.  And yes- lactobacillus will ferment lactose.
If you added some yogurt to a lactose brew, you would most likely get
a rather acidic product.   So: Lactose IS fermentable, but NOT by
Saccharomyces (beer yeast), so it can sweeten a beer.

Best idea is to minimize the time the lactose is available to wild
bacteria.  Add it at bottling (to taste) with good asceptic technique.  
If you add it to the wort you risk more by having it present longer, where
an infectious bacterium could ferment it and produce acid.  BUT
if these fermenters are not present you should not see any additional
acid as a result of the lactose.  Bottle with usual priming sugar and
lactose and you will NOT see additional acidity upon carbonation
UNLESS there are contaminating organisms present!

Also- allows you to taste test the fermented beer and see how much 
sweetening it may require.  You could end up with lots of unfermented sugars
from the ferment, and not need as much, or it could have attenuated enough
that lots of sugar could help.  Depends on your preference.

****
Just got another 5 gallons of fresh squeezed cider.  Yummy.
They made me a deal on pressing day- that if I brought a container
for them to fill it would be cheaper.  The guy wondered where I got
the nice glass carboy.  :)  I don't know if they know what we plan
to do with the liquid!  I doubt good mormons would appreciate such
a use.  Although it IS a method of storing the cider for longer periods!

        Maybe I should call it Armageddon Cider!

Another Note:  I pitched a gallon of cider (unsterilized) with
champage yeast, and it's going like a bat out of "heck" .
I also had another gallon sitting untouched.  It started building 
pressure and making bubbles too. 

The first smells appley, tastes sweet and yummy (2 weeks)
while the second smells sour, rotten, but tastes ok.
I think I can forced the first to go quick, while the second will
have to age for a long time. (based on past experiments).

A Question:  Anyone have any tips of fast fermenting.
It's been 2 weeks and I hope to race the first cider for thanx.
I was thinking of chilling it down, and clarifying (bentonite?)
then bottling and hoping for a quick carbonation (since it's still
active) and a quick drinking.  I may be begging the issue to hope to
have it so quick, but it tastes good now.  Any ideas/experience?
****
On a humorous horror story note, re: potential names and lost wort:

A brewing collegue called me yesterday in a panic.  He had just
conducted a terrilbe faux pah (SP!  I ain't frech!:)  ie screwed up!

Using the age old method of submerging hot wort/boiling pot in
a bathtub of cold water he gave new meaning to the concept of
"immersion chilling".  He deep sixed the pot.  Yes...that's right kids,

Boil pot was floating.        Boil pot was submerged.  
Wort rushed out,      bathtub water rushed in.         Ooooooooooops.

Went from a high gravity stout ...  to....?

He was calling partially to ask whether he should re-boil.
He sterilizes the whole tub with bleach water when soaking bottles.
BUT  He has two kids who bathe in there too!  BOIL IT!  He did.

He also wanted to know if he should add more fermentables upon re-boiling.
He went for brown sugar.  I also suggested honey, dme. He mashes.

I also suggested a few names for the brew:  Deep Six Stout. BathtubBrew.
Submarine Psuedo Stout...among others.  Any more ideas?

I think he's embarassed and wants to forget the incident.  :)
At least he didn't lose the WHOLE batch.  Could have taken it skiing (toot!).

        John (The Coyote) Wyllie   SLK6P at cc.usu.edu     |'^\/|
- ----- no  cute quote today.  Just not in the mood....   -------
ALSO:  	Saw the BeerMachine  in the Sharper Image catalog.  $99.95 ($8 S&H)
Again quoting the 25 gal/year Federal law.  Ooops.   But Jeepers.  A hunderd
bucks for lame yuppy brew.  Maybe I can find a used machine at the
salvation army, but otherwise I ain't gonna touch it!  To think of all
the gadgets, toys, and brewsupplies available for $100!  

Guess we have really "fallen through the cracks of our quick fix, 
1 hour photo, instant oatmeal society"  !!  Guess I did have a quote afterall.

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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 16:22:23
From: prf at cherry-semi.com (Paul Ferrara)
Subject: Stepping up to a 5 gallon boil



I began reading the HBD only two weeks ago and have already learned 
a great deal about the finer points of brewing.  

I've decided that if my brew is going to improve any, I need to make 
the leap to boiling 5 full gal. and appropriatly chilling.  It's time 
to demote my 12qt aluminum pot to lobster boiling, and move on to 
something bigger.   I've been considering purchasing a "Bru-Heat" 
thermostatically controlled boiler as a replacement brew pot ... my 
theory being that for approx the price of a quality 24-30 qt stainless 
steel pot, I can get a unit that will boil my wort now,  AND, be used 
for my next leap: to all grain brewing.

Would this be a wise investment?  Can the Bru-Heat bring a 5 gal batch
to a reasonably quick boil?  Is it the right way to go for mashing?  
Or should I really spend many $$ and buy a stainles steel pot, propane 
cooker, picnic cooler mash tun, sparging manifold, etc, etc, etc ....

If this has been discussed at length before, feel free to respond by 
private E-mail, or direct me to the proper archive.

Thanks.....Paul


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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 17:13:29 EST
From: tchm at gtx.ummed.edu (Chris Mix)
Subject: for publication


I am new to brewing and my first batch is about 1 week old and
sitting in a glass carbuoy as a single stage fermentation.  As
suggested by Papazian, I reconstituted my yeast by boiling approx.
1-2 cup water, letting it cool to 100-105 farenheit then adding the
yeast and letting them sit for 30 min prior to pitching them.  
Within the first 12-18 hrs close to a quart of my beer-to-be came
over into a bucked through a water-locked tube.  I am concerned 
because the foam had fallen back into the carbuoy at 24 hrs and 
the smaller water lock now atop the carbuoy has passed a bubble 
only once every 1-5 min.  I was under the impression most activity
was to occur over 1-2or3 days.  I am aiming for an ale with a Munson
malt extract, 8 oz. crystal malt, 2 oz Kent Gouldings and some
Cascade (hops, not detergent) thrown in 5 min prior to adding the
wort to the carbuoy.  The yeast are starting to settle now and
otherwise things seem to look OK.  Could there be a problem here?

 -Chris Mix




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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 16:20 CDT
From: G.Leake at utxvm.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: british ale liquid yeast

Does anyone know whether British Ale Yeast is the most appropriate liquid
yeast for brewing Northern style Brown Ales?
thanks
George Leake

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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 15:04:22 -0800 (PST)
From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Panic Over Sugar

You ever notice how easy it is to push the panic button here on the
Digest?  It looks as though it's happened again, this time with people
starting to dither over the correct bottling sugar.

The Crabtree Effect is about as relevant as the Crab Nebula here.  We
are talking, after all, of truly tiny amounts of sugar compared with the
total volume -- even leaving aside the fact that *lots* of beers have
been made with 20-30% of *cane* sugar added, without any problems.

The British and the Belgians regularly prime with sugar, with sucrose,
dextrose, invert sugar and combinations of the above, sometimes with a
bit of caramel thrown in for variety.  I have yet to see any evidence
that this causes a problem.  Sierra Nevada has been using dextrose to
bottle for years, and I can't see that it's cut into their sales much.

Really, folks, relax.  Worrying is one thing, but panic...

==========

And on subject of sugars, and British sugars in particular:  I have to
disagree with the poster who said that demerara sugar was less sticky
than American brown sugar.  At least, I disagree with it as a blanket
statement.  Eric Urquart (no, I know that's not spelled right) was good
enough to send me .5 kilo from British Columbia, and this stuff is much,
much stickier than brown sugar.  It also has an unmistakeable molasses
aroma that could be smelled through the plastic packaging five feet
away.  And yes, I fully intend to use it in brewing.

==========

Larry Barelo inquired about using adjuncts to lighten up a barleywine.
I'm not entirely sure that it would still be a barleywine if it was
lightened up, but I have been using sugar and flaked maize for the same
purpose in my faux-abbeybiers and it really does the job.  It is, I
think, one of the prime differences between barleywines and the Belgian
beers: the former have a very full body, rich and sweet, while the
Belgian beers are deliberately made to have a high alcohol but to be
less satiating.  Really hard to do that with an all-malt recipe.

=========

Todd Jennings laments the increasing appearance of twist-offs in
microbrewed beers.  Although the criticism is well-placed, he mentions
Sierra Nevada as a new offender -- SN has never had anything *but*
twist-off caps on their bottles since they began in, what, 1984?  1983?

Here in the Great NW, the micros are split somewhat.  Red Hook beers
have twist-offs, Full Sail's and BridgePort's are true crown caps, um,
so are Rogue's, Pyramids are twisted, etc.  Then again, I've never had a
bad bottle that I could attribute to twist-offs, so I'm not sure how
valid the conventional wisdom is.

- --Jeff


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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 15:05 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Acid rest

Jeff writes:
>Interesting to note Greg Noonan's article in the special issue of
>Zymurgy.  Noonan is now touting sour mashes as the secret ingredient in
>Bavarian weizens and Bohemian pilsners -- in spite of a complete lack of
>evidence that they are used at all in those areas.  (The acid rest he
>mentions is a matter of a few hours or less, not days.)

I have read the article and recall scribbling red ink all over it.  For
those who have not read it, Noonan talks about souring the beer with
naturally occuring bacteria on the husks of malt.  Indeed, this is sour
mashing.  I'd like to point out that it's NOT the "acid rest" that is
used by some brewers.  The "acid rest" is enzymatic (phytase, I believe)
rather than bacterial -- I know Jeff didn't mean this, but it could have
been confusing to some.

Al.

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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 93 16:22 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Dry Hopping Infections/Tate & Lyle Golden Syrup and Treacle

Dan writes:
>Anyway, it's pretty clear that the greatest risk of infection is before
>fermentation.  No confusion there.  Presumably the bacteria produce bad
>flavors, then are overwhelmed by the yeast, PH, and/or alcohol.  Right?

Not quite.  The greatest risk is, indeed, before fermentation and from two
sources: 1) infected starter/yeast and 2) airbourne or fermenter-surface
bacteria (in scratches, for example) getting a foothold in your beer
during long lag times.  Unless you *sterilize* everything, and work in a
clean room, you will always have some bacteria and wild yeast in your beer.
The question is, if there will be enough of them to make a difference in
the flavor and if they will survive long enough to make a difference.  If
you pitch a clean, healthy, viable, populous starter into a reasonably
clean wort of a similar temperature, under good conditions (e.g. no grain
dust in the air), your yeast will eat most of the nutrients, consume most
of the oxygen and soon create a blanket of CO2 which will keep away new
airbourne nasties.  The wild yeast and bacteria are there and are creating
off flavors and aromas, but in such small amounts that it does not reach
our perception threshold.  When fermentation is complete, whatever bacteria
have not been killed by the pH and alcohol, are (if everything went well)
again in such small numbers that their products are below the perception
threshold.
 
>However, the recent dry hop & bacteria thread has made me wonder about
>post-ferment.  Some HBD articles have indicated that once fermentation
>is complete, the beer is hostile to bacteria, so no worries.

Don't worry, but don't be foolish -- maintain good, sanitary technique.
Would you eat a sandwich you dropped on the garage floor?
 
>On the other hand, I've read several times that "gushers" are caused by
>infections.  The idea there is that the bacteria eat stuff that the
>yeast don't, resulting in over carbonation during long term storage.

Back when I was a beginner, using dry yeasts that have since been found
to have had big problems with bacterial counts (see the Yeast Special
Issue of Zymurgy), I would (with certain yeasts) get gushers after a
few months.  In looking through that early logbook, I can't find a
single batch that ended up a gusher that could not be attributed to
infected dry yeast except for one.  That one batch's problems are quite
involved (clogged blowoff tube, whole cherries added, 8 hours of an
open fermenter, etc. etc.) so data from it is difficult to extract.

In summary, if you pitch good, clean yeast and not shock them, and
maintain good sanitation techniques, you can expect to not have
bacterial problems.  If you choose to add dryhops, do your best to
keep them sanitary (within reason) and don't add them until fermentation
is virtually over.

********************************
Someone (sorry) mentioned something about an embargo regarding the
Tate & Lyle's Syrups.  My understanding is that several months ago,
the US withheld the import of Tate & Lyle's products from the UK
because they would not (or could not) provide proof that they were
not made with Cuban sugar.  The embargo mentioned is obviously our
restrictions on trade with Cuba.  I don't know if the sightings of
the T&L products are just existing stock or if the import restriction
has been lifted.

**************************
Drew writes:
>  In yesterday's (I hope) HBD, Chuck Wettergreen posted a method for
>making invert sugar.  Has anyone used this stuff as a priming agent?
>I was curious if the breaking down of the sugars would inhibit the
>oxygen generating crabtree effect.

I think we need to first talk about the Crabtree effect.  It does not
produce oxygen, rather it is the effect by which yeast abandon
respiration and perform anaerobic fermentation despite available O2
if the concentration of monosaccharides like glucose (dextrose) and
fructose are sufficiently high.  The issue, as it applies to us, is
whether priming with malt extract will cause the yeast to respire the
O2 introduced during bottling or whether priming with corn sugar (glucose) 
is equivalent in this respect.  My experience has shown that, given
my procedures, there were no problems with oxidation in my beers, 
regardless of whether I primed with malt extract or corn sugar.
I therefore changed back to corn sugar.  With all due respect to 
Reinheitsgebot, I prefer Belgian and English beers... beers that would
have Delbruck and Sedlmeyer spinning in their graves.

Al.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1277, 11/20/93