FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: Suggestions for counter-flow wort chiller ("Stephen Hansen")
  Collection About Counter-Flow Chillers ("Stephen Hansen")
  Need help priming with wort... (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Protein and iso-humulone analysis. (Domenick Venezia)
   (Domenick Venezia)
  women brewing, flame, all grain question (James Clark)
  priming, hop question ("PAUL E. RYBAK")
  pH/Threading/Decoction (npyle)
  Autolysis (Kit Anderson)
  Flame on Stupid Stuff (Domenick Venezia)
  Questions (Ulick Stafford)
  Stronger Recipe (Christopher Alan Strickland)
  Two general questions (Andrey Shaw)
  restricted competitions (BILL FUHRMANN)
  Flying Hop Bags ("Dan Z. Johnson")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 11 Feb 94 12:14:32 -0800
From: "Stephen Hansen" <hansen at gloworm.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: Suggestions for counter-flow wort chiller 

In HBD 1346 Rich Lenihan <Rich_Lenihan at firstclass.wellfleet.com> writes:
> For various reasons, I've decided to build a counter-flow wort
> chiller.  I have a couple of questions.  First, what diameter of copper
> tubing should I use - 1/4" ID or 3/8" ID?  It seems to me that the 1/4"
> ID tubing would be more efficient  re: heat transfer but I'm concerned
> about the possibility of the tubing becoming partly or completely
> clogged with break material.  The 3/8" ID tubing is a little more
> expensive but less likely to clog.  Also, while I could slow down the
> wort flow through the wider tubing I would be hard pressed to speed it
> up through the narrower tubing.  Are there other factors I should
> consider?  I'm planning to use a total length of 15-20 ft.

I posted a message a few months back (HBD 1260) about the CF chiller I
made.  I bought a box of 50' of 3/8" OD (1/4" ID) soft copper tubing.
I used 30 feet when making the chiller although I could have probably
have gotten away with less than 30 feet as I get the wort from about
200F to 70F with a very low water flow rate.  I used some of the
remainder to make an aerating wand and a siphon cane.  The smaller
diameter does mean that it takes 15 to 25 minutes to drain 5 gallons of
wort through the thing.  I don't mind as I can use the time to get the
yeast ready and clean up the mess I've made in the kitchen.  A larger
diameter would drain faster but would require more water.  Also a 3/4"
diameter hose is a lot cheaper than the 1" hose you'd need with the
larger pipe.

I avoid the clogging problem by siphoning from the boiling kettle into
a 6 gallon food-grade plastic bucket that has a tap at its base.  I use
the copper cane with a copper scrubber and mesh bag on its submerged
end to filter the hot break and hops from the wort.

The bucket of hot wort is taken to the garage and placed on top of the
washing machine.  The CF chiller sits on a stool just below it and the
carboy sits on the floor.  I use some 3/8" ID plastic tubing to connect
all this and then just open the tap and watch it work.  The wort is
chilled, aerated, and transfered to the carboy all in one step.

> 
> Second,  I haven't decided what kind of fittings I'll use to seal the
> H2O input and output.  I'm looking for something that is cheap, simple
> and leak-proof.  Any suggestions welcome.

I used two garden hose Y adapters, the yellow plastic kind with ball
valve shutoffs on the arms of the Y.  If they leak you can fill the gap
with epoxy (silicon calking won't hold up to the pressure).  On mine,
one end leaks a little and the other doesn't, I don't worry about it.

> 
> Third, at some point in the future I plan to connect the wort input
> side of the chiller to an outlet near the bottom of my boiler to
> acheive my ultimate goal - a closed brewing system.  I figure threaded
> fittings at both sides with some kind of hose connecting the two.  My
> question is, what kind of hose should I use that would be easy to
> sanitize and resistant to high temps?  If there's a better way of
> acheving this end, I'd love to hear it.

If I ever get my half barrel converted to a boiling kettle I may need
to deal with this.  With my present setup (mash and boil in the
kitchen, cool, pitch, and ferment in the garage) it is easier and more
convenient to siphon the hot wort off the break and into an easy to
carry bucket.  As always, YMMV.

Stephen Hansen

 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
 Stephen E. Hansen - hansen at sierra.Stanford.EDU  | "The church is near,
 Electrical Engineering Computer Facility        |  but the road is icy.
 Applied Electronics Laboratory, Room 218        |  The bar is far away,
 Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305-4055    |  but I will walk carefully."
 Phone: +1-415-723-1058   Fax: +1-415-723-1294   |      -- Russian Proverb
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 94 12:18:19 -0800
From: "Stephen Hansen" <hansen at gloworm.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Collection About Counter-Flow Chillers

I have extracted most of the articles about counter-flow wort chillers
from the HBD going back to 1989.   They have been placed into the file
counterflow.Z in the /pub/homebrew/docs directory on the Sierra archives.

Listserver users should use the "get homebrew counterflow" command.

Stephen Hansen

 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
 Stephen E. Hansen - hansen at sierra.Stanford.EDU  | "The church is near,
 Electrical Engineering Computer Facility        |  but the road is icy.
 Applied Electronics Laboratory, Room 218        |  The bar is far away,
 Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305-4055    |  but I will walk carefully."
 Phone: +1-415-723-1058   Fax: +1-415-723-1294   |      -- Russian Proverb
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 94 15:47:41 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Need help priming with wort...

Ok, so I made a couple of errors.

Some of you noted that you surely want more than 1 volume of CO2 for
carbonation.  Yup.  However, some of that CO2 is already dissolved in
the beer as it comes out of the fermenter.  At 60F, approximately .9
volumes of CO2 are already dissolved in a saturated solution.  Thus,
producing 1 more volume from priming will give you almost 2 volumes,
the "usual" carbonation level.

The more egregious error was in my statement:
>   With dry malt extract, at 40pt-gal/lb, you'd add about the same.  

I forgot that you'll only get 75% attenuation.  So you want to add
more like 5-6 oz DME (4oz / .75 = 4 oz * (1 + 1/3) = 5.33).  Same
applies to adding gyle. (I.e., add 1/3 more than the simple
calculation tells you.)

If you krauesen with actively fermenting wort (or is it beer by
then?)  then it's a bit more complex: to get fermentable sugars left
in the krauesen, take the OG-1, multiply by .25 (to get the presumed
unfermentable content) subtract from the SG-1 of the krauesen at the
time of addition to get remaining fermentable extract.

An example
	OG = 1.040
	SG = 1.030 at time of krauesening
	UG = (OG-1)*.25 = .040*.25 = .010
	SG-1-UG = .020
	.020 / .002 = 10
Thus, you want to dilute the krauesen 10:1.  For a final quantity of 5
gallons, add 1/2 gallon of krauesen.


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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 18:56:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at ZGI.COM>
Subject: Protein and iso-humulone analysis.

Speaking of 2-dimensional protein electrophoresis ... I have enlisted
the help of a fellow brewer here at ZGI and we are considering running
a number of 2-dimensional protein electrophoresis tests on a number of 
quality beers.  This test first separates the proteins (peptides) along 
the first dimension by electric charge then along the second dimension by 
molecular weight.  What we are hoping to generate is a series of protein
signatures of individual beers and perhaps cluster such signatures into
styles.  For example, there may be an "English Bitters" protein signature 
that typifies the style.  Likewise for Pilsners and other styles.

Recent posts have described an optical assay for iso-humulone.  Has anyone
out there actually tried this?  We are also thinking of a time course
study of beer conditioning and iso-humulone concentrations.  I have
noticed that often my fully fermented pre-bottled wort is excellent, but
after a week of bottle conditioning it is almost undrinkably harsh, then
sometime during the 3rd week of conditioning the beer-fairy visits and
blesses all my bottles and the brew is wonderful again.  An assay for
a single bittering component may not tell us much, but it might.

Light bulb. Some of you may remember a rather ridiculous post about the
shape of Rager's hop utilization curve which has also been an interest of
mine.  What about taking wort samples every 5 minutes over the course of a
2 hour boil and assaying for iso-humulone?  Now the numeric values of
%utilization would only be as good as the %AA rating supplied with the
hops so they would be suspect, but the curve shape would be quite valid. 

Look out, I'm rambling and free-associating.  Maybe Mark Garetz of HopTech
could contribute a post as to the reliability of the %AA ratings we get
from retailers, and who and how they come up with these numbers. 

If anyone has any suggestions on these ideas or experience with either of 
these techniques I want to hear from you.

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com





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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 23:43:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at ZGI.COM>
Subject: 

cancel article 02112039.18836



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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 23:43:59 -0500
From: jeclark at bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu (James Clark)
Subject: women brewing, flame, all grain question

i haven't been able to read the last few issues of the digest, so i don't
know what the background discussion to the women's brewing contest is, but
here's my cents:
the guys who are griping about it are using reverse political correctness,
if you ask me:  they are being so ultra-p.c. about equality that they get
mad when _they_ feel they have been left out.  the problem is that men and
women aren't treated equally, so it's useless to complain about the whole
issue.
as for me, i see it more as an inclusion than an exclusion.  the world of
homebrewing is definitely male dominated at the moment, and this seems to
be a good way to get more women interested.  i hope the contest goes well.

flame:
Phillip Seitz got mad at the entire digest because _one_ person made his
belgian friend leave the digest.  actually, i contributed to the "pot in
beer" discussion, so i deserve the flame:  that discussion was pointless,
immature, and i apologize for it.  however, to criticize the whole digest
is even more immature.  what do you expect, mr. seitz?  don't you think
that with the amount of people on this digest it is inevitable that once in
a while someone might write in something that offends someone else?  maybe
if your belgian friend had felt that he would  be able to learn something
from this digest and not just help out all us lowly novices he would have
been more likely to overlook the offense, wade through the crap that gets
posted here (including this post), and read the stuff that really counts. 
as i stated before, i accept the flame, but i think mr. seitz owes the rest
of the digest an apology.

lastly, i just read through papazian's section on all grain brewing for the
second time and i am still thoroughly confused.  does anyone know of some
literature on this subject that covers the process step-by-step (i can't
figure when to do what from charlie's book because he skips around so
much).

thanks in advance.

 -james clark
 (jeclark at ucdavis.edu)


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Date: 12 Feb 94 12:29:52 EST
From: "PAUL E. RYBAK" <76510.150 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: priming, hop question

Hi!  I'm new to the forum and hope that I use it correctly.
Question:If I use malt extract to prime what quantity do I use to prime
5 gallons?
Also, are whole hop plugs used oz/oz as hop plugs?
Thanks.


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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 94 10:17:02 MST
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: pH/Threading/Decoction

Larry Meyer (and others) mention that pH is temperature sensitive (several
posts ago I mentioned that it is not - a bad assumption on my part).  The
good news for me is that I pull off a teaspoon or less of liquid (from the
mash) and drop it onto a cold plate for checking the pH.  This is pretty sure
to drop its temperature to very near room temperature, and this is guaranteed
to be at least as accurate as comparing the color to a reference.  I guess my
original assumption wasn't so bad after all, i.e. I lucked out.

**

Spencer asks that we keep our messages short (a noble request) and to a
single point (Whoa!  Hold on to your horsey, there pardner!).  I don't think
you'll get a very positive response to your asking everyone to change the way
they post, just so your software will work better.

S>(Now, to climb into my asbestos suit....)

No flame here, but I'm looking for my matches...

**

James Gallagher asks about decoction mashing:

>Some quetions I have about the process: Does it produce different flavors
>that `temperature controlled' mashing? Should I separate the grain from the

Decoctions are supposed to really bring out the malt flavors; much better
than any type of infusion, step, etc.

>liquid before boiling? If not, then won't that extract lots of tannings?

The low pH will prevent tannin extraction.

>Also, won't boiling a fraction of the mash kill off the enzymes in that
>partion of the mash? Does that matter?

That fraction of the mash needs to be held at conversion temperatures long
enough for it to convert, *before* it is boiled.  Also, one of the main
points to decoction mashing is to burst starch particles at these elevated
temperatures, so that they can in turn be converted to sugar by enzymes in
the main mash.  Of course, I should shut up and let the decoction experts
take over.  I don't think I committed any blasphemy yet...

Norm

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Date: 12 Feb 94 11:37:30 EST
From: Kit Anderson <72217.2600 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Autolysis

I have a question on autolysis. We are told to rack to secondary to 
eliminate the possibility of cannibalism. But there is yeast sediment in 
secondary and after bottling. Why aren't we concerned about autolysis 
there? What characteristics does it add to beer?

On another note, does anybody else have trouble finding enough adjectives 
when judging? I am sick of "nice, lovely, and wonderful". I recently got a 
score sheet back that used "orgasmic". That opens up a whole realm of 
possibilities for similes.

 -Kit Anderson <72217.2600 at compuserve.com>
"What a wonderful world it was once when all the beer
 was not made in Minneapolis, Milwaukee, or St. Louis."
                                                       -Norman Maclean.
                                               A River Runs Through It


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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 11:05:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at ZGI.COM>
Subject: Flame on Stupid Stuff

GOOD GRIEF!!  A lot of this stuff is stupid.  The recent posts from
persons torqued off and whining about a women-only competition says much
about the mental health of the whiners.  No one is threatening your
gonads.  LIGHTEN UP!  HAVE FUN!  DISCUSS BEER!  Frankly I am all for
anything that brings more women into brewing.  Maybe I'll meet some. 

The recent thread on "special hops" was ridiculous and naive.  THE STUFF
IS ILLEGAL!  And, obviously, IT MAKES YOU STUPID!!  Big brother IS out
there, so keep your mouths shut in public and please take your discussion 
into the private arena. 

Now, after flaming the whiners and the stoners, I'd like to thank everyone
who actually contributes or who asks for help, and especially the
knowledgeable among us who have stuck in there despite the drivel. 

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com







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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 94 14:30:30 EST
From: ulick at bizet.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford)
Subject: Questions

I am going to be in Nashville next week and Vancouver at the end of the month.
Brewpubs?  I intend to brew a Belgian white in the next few weeks and was going
to use 45% wheat (flakes probably), 5% oats, and 50% malt.  I have Belgian
Pilsener, but would I be better of with American 6-row?  Does anyone know a 
good source for the complicated Hoegarden mashing schedule?  

(I am curious as to why many people are criticizing the woman homebrewer
contest.  I don't recall any criticism of the long promoted Grateful Deaf
homebrew contest.  These events should be viewed as fun, social events - about 
the only good use for Homebrew Contests IMHO.  Restricted entry contests are
hardly new - AHA Club only contests are much worse, if you ask me).
__________________________________________________________________________
 'Heineken!?! ... F#$% that s at &* ...  | Ulick Stafford, Dept of Chem. Eng.  
    Pabst Blue Ribbon!'               | Notre Dame IN 46556
                                      |    ulick at darwin.cc.nd.edu   


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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 94 15:55:58
From: Christopher Alan Strickland <beach!chris at cocoa12.ksc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Stronger Recipe

I made a batch of beer that I love:

3.3 lbs Northwestern Malt Extract
1   lb  Dry Malt Extract

7.5 Hal N. Brewer Hops (60 min boil)
5.0 Styrian Golding Hops (2 min boil , 10 min steep)

This only provide an OG of 1.031 and I'd like to make it higher without
changing the taste.  Any ideas on how to up the OG, and keep the nice
hops taste this had.


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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 94 15:04:17 CST
From: shaw at visar.wustl.edu (Andrey Shaw)
Subject: Two general questions

I've got two simple questions.

1.  What is corn sugar and why is it used for carbonation?  Why can't
sucrose be used?  Is it fructose?  I am tired of driving to my homebrew
store just to get it.

2.  What is so special about the 70 degrees for pitching?  What I have been
doing is letting the wort cool overnight and then pitching in the morning.
Is there something serious wrong with this procedure?  I can't for the life
of me see the problem, especially if I am using starter yeast.

Thanks.


andrey shaw



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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 12:57:00 GMT
From: BILL.FUHRMANN at tstation.mn.org (BILL FUHRMANN)
Subject: restricted competitions

Restricting a competition based on gender is just one of many ways to
restrict things, no better or worse than any other.  Are there any other
restricted competitions out there?

If the idea is to get more women into competition (they really should
have no disadvantage in an open one), maybe the organizers should
consider working on getting novices of all types into it.

Nationally, Autocrossing/Solo I (parking lot racing) has special classes
for women.  Some of the women can beat most men in their class.  Our local
club does not have the ladies classes, but we set up a
novice/semi-interested/weird car class that anyone may compete in until
they walk off with a first place trophy.

A beer competition for those new to the sport may be a good idea.  Let
people compete against their peers, get good feedback from the judges to
improve their work, and then move them into the mainstream.

 * QMPro 1.0 41-6621 * "Theasaurus - Dinosaur with a good vocabulary"

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Date: 12 Feb 94 21:08:51 EST
From: "Dan Z. Johnson" <75430.3532 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Flying Hop Bags

Doug Lukasik <LUKASIK_D at sunybroome.edu> has a problem with a hopbag that floats
in the carboy and blocks the outlet.
First, are you dryhopping in the primary? If so, try racking to a secondary and
not topping off. That will leave room for the bag and the beer won't be
fermenting so much anyway. Are you bottling or kegging your beer? If you keg,
you can dryhop in the keg. Remove the hopbag when you have reached the point of
perfect hoppiness. If you bottle, you might want to try not using a hopbag. Most
of the hops will float (as you have discovered) and not be a problem in racking
or bottling. You will loose a bit of beer to the hop layer, but not much.
 -Z


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1349, 02/14/94