FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  cheapSS/DshwshrDtrgnts/Glenbrew/wortacidity/priming/WhyChill? (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Harvested yeast ("Dave Suurballe")
  5 Liter Mini-Kegs (GNT_TOX_)
  Must Mash?/RIMS/easymasher/Great British Beer Fest (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Wyeast 1056 (George Kavanagh O/o)
  mixing yeasts (LLAPV)
  Chicago Brewpubs ("darrin stolba")
  Oops (Keith MacNeal  22-Mar-1994 1627)
  Egg whites for fining beer (Jack Skeels)
  growing hops (Mark Allen Kelm)
  Re: Two-Stage Fermentation (Brian J. Cecil)
  Pike Place in Vermont? (Allan Rubinoff)
  Culturing yeast from the bottle... (Patrick Weix)
  The "What gets Mashed?" Thread ("John R. Calen - Contacting Systems - E.F., N.Y.")
  CO2 Generation (Steve Scampini)
  cutting your fridge (23-Mar-1994 0955 -0500)
  Starting Out ("BKYLE")
  Grains in the mashout, drilling holes in a frig. (Bob Jones)
  California brewpubbing, pt 2 (Jim Busch)
  Pike Place Pale Ale (GANDE)
  Pike Place Pale ("Ball, Timothy B")
  Party pig question (Linda Fardy)
  Cut-off kegs (Wolfe)
  About Breaking Bottles ("Merchant, Thomas E")
  Alpha acid solubility (Jeremy Ballard Bergsman)
  Mash specialty grains? (Domenick Venezia)
  Calculating Degrees Lovibond. (Greg_Habel)
  icebeer (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Homebrewing (Chris Ryan)
  cannibis beer ("Erik Mitchell")
  California brewing, pt 3 (last) (Jim Busch)
  C-keg valves/dispensing ("Jeff M. Michalski, MD")
  "special" hops (LLDSC)
  Not Boiling the Wort: Ramifications? ("Palmer.John")
  saints ("kim.paffenroth.1")
  back issues of AHA National Conference proceedings (Wayde Nie)
  Fridge modifications. (Wayde Nie)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 22 Mar 94 20:25:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: cheapSS/DshwshrDtrgnts/Glenbrew/wortacidity/priming/WhyChill?

bmfogarty writes:
>porcelain covered canning pot. I would like to "graduate" to a Stainless
>Steel pot, but do not have lots of money to throw into a pot. Where can I get
>a restaurant grade, eight gallon pot with a lid at the most reasonable price?

Try a used one at a restaurant supply store.  In every major town there's
a restaurant going out of business every week -- much of their equipment
goes to these reselling places.

*********
Bill writes:
>   It seems to me that the active ingredient in most dishwasher detergents
>   is Sodium Carbonate (washing soda). This is also the active ingredient
>   in B-BRITE. This seems to mean that there would be no need for additional
>   sanitizers (like chlorine bleach) as long as the concentration of Sodium
>   Carbonate is high enough.

I'm afraid you're off by one Oxygen.  The active ingredient in B-Brite and
One Step is Sodium Percarbonate.  When mixed with water, it makes something
similar to a mix of Washing Soda and Hydrogen Peroxide.  Sodium Carbonate
(Washing Soda) is good for cleaning, but does nil for sanitizing it's the
H202 that does the sanitation.

>   I just finished racking a batch of pale extract/honey brew to secondary.
>   It was fermented with the "new" (to our area, anyway) Glenbrew "secret
>   brewers" dry yeast. I rehydrated it in 2 cups of wort from the batch
>   (i.e. after boiling) and pitched it after it had started to form a krausen
>   on the starter.

It is not recommended to rehydrate yeast in wort.  The hydrostatic pressure
is higher and thus 90-110F sanitary water is best for rehydration.

>   The "problem" (if in fact there really is one) is that on the second day
>   of fermentation a horrible odor of H2S invaded my fermenting room. This

It may or may not be related to the rehydration, but could just be the yeast
strain.  Some produce a lot of sulfury aromas, which later dissipate.
Relax, Don't Worry...

*******
Steve writes:
>I'm no food science expert but if wort were acidic enough to keep
>wild nasties (yeasts, bacteria) at bay, wouldn't it also keep the
>cultured, domesticated sort at bay, too? Alternatively, if wort were
>ideally suited for cultured yeast to thrive in, why wouldn't it be
>just as well suited for the nasties to survive in too? There was a

The acidity of wort will not keep neither cultured or wild yeast
at bay, nor will it kill many of the wort-spoiling bacteria like
Pediococcus and Lactobacillus.  It will kill some bacteria and
the acidity, combined with the alcohol of the *finished* beer
and the lack of oxygen after the yeast has begun fermentation are
enough to kill all known *pathogens*.  I don't know about botulism.

>I switched to DME priming last year and will never go back to sugar.
>Table sugar will leave a cidery bite to your beer, while corn sugar
>doesn't. Priming with DME definitely gives a sturdier head and more
>body, and you can proudly claim that you have an "all malt" beer.

I don't agree with any of the above except the part about "all malt."
The small amounts of priming sugar are not going to lend any flavor
to your beer -- there's just not enough there to make a difference.
Also, the small amount of DME that you would use shouldn't make an
appreciable difference in the head retention.  See my Technical
Communication in the latest issue of Brewing Techniques for more on
this subject.

*******
Ron writes:
>     Now, after the boil, I chill by dunking my boil pot in a sink 
>     filled with ice-water. Why? Because Charlie told me to. It does 
>     speed up the cooling, but does it do anything else? Does my beer 
>     like it better?

Speeding up cooling is the most important part -- speedy cooling:

	1. reduces the risk of infections taking hold
	2. reduces DMS production (cooked corn aroma)
	3. increases cold break formation

>     Or, to put it another way, Charlie also says I should probably 
>     have a wort-chiller for all-grain "advanced" brewing (but doesn't 
>     explain why). So I'm thinking about making one. But I'd like to 
>     know why before investing the time and money.

"Why" is because the larger mass of a full boil takes a long time to cool
with the "kettle in the sink full of ice" method of cooling.   Don't forget
to account for the cost of the ice.


>     In fact, I'm wondering why I shouldn't just run the boiling wort 
>     directly to my plastic fermenter and skip the ice-water dunk. I 

See 1,2 and 3 above.

Al.

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Date: 22 Mar 1994 12:35:21 -0800
From: "Dave Suurballe" <suurb at farallon.com>
Subject: Harvested yeast

John Pavao mentioned harvesting yeast slurry from his fermenters and storing it
in capped beer bottles.  I used to do this, and now I don't.  I advise others
not to do it, too.  Store the slurry in a flask or a bottle or something with
an airlock.  If you harvest a little early, you can get tremendous pressure in
a sealed bottle.  I know.  I'm still here to talk about it, but one day last
week I spent several seconds trying to figure out why I couldn't see, and was
that blood dripping off my face.  It wasn't; it was the thick yeast slurry
which left the bottle and headed for the moon and was stopped by my face and
the ceiling.  All I lost was one contact lens.  It was pretty upsetting.

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Date:     Tue, 22 Mar 94 15:39 EST
From: <GNT_TOX_%ALLOY.BITNET at PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:  5 Liter Mini-Kegs

The 5 Liter mini-kegs seemed to receive a lot of praise from people
over the last couple of HBDs.  Well, I went looking for them.  The
thought of being able to keg five gallons for around $50-60 was
definitely intriguing.  Well, I can't find them anywhere.  I can get
Party Pigs no problem, but the Mini keg seems to be cheaper both in
terms of initial cost and upkeep.

Couple of questions:

1- Do these babies work like the cornelius type, meaning yeast in the
   first glass and clear beer the rest of the way?
2- Where do I buy these things???  I can't find any homebrew shop that
   has any!
3- Please tell me I don't need a CO2 tank and regulator!

Speaking of regulator.... is there a specific type that CO2 needs?

Andy Pastuszak
Philadelphia, PA


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Date: 22 Mar 94 20:32:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Must Mash?/RIMS/easymasher/Great British Beer Fest

Todd writes:
>So could we compile a list?
				MUST MASH?	ENZYMES?
>crystal malt			no		no
>dextrine (carapils) malt	no		no
>special B malt			no		no
>vienna malt			yes		yes
>victory malt			yes		no
>munich malt			yes		yes
>belgian aromatic malt		yes		yes (enough to convert itself)
>biscuit malt			yes		no
>chocolate malt			no		no
>roasted malt			no		no
>black malt			this is roasted malt
>roasted barley			no		no
>other:
	Pale Ale malt		yes		yes
	Pilsner malt		yes		yes
	Mild malt		yes		yes
	Caramel			this is crystal malt
 
Aromatic is a wet-kilned amber malt, similar to munich but darker.  Biscuit
is a dry-kilned amber malt which does not have enzymes.  Victory is a toasted
malt which does not have enzymes.  Caramel, dextrine, carapils, carastan,
caravienne, caramunich, special B -- all of these are crystal malts.

Bottom line: if it's crystal malt, it does not need to be mashed; if it is
not, then it should.  Caveat: with dark roasted grains like chocolate,
black (roasted) malt and roasted barley, you can get away with not mashing
because the small amount of haze produced will be concealed by the resulting
dark beer.

>but what is RIMS?

Recirculating Infusion Mash System -- basically, it is
a mash tun with a pump that draws out the runoff, sends it to a heater
(an immersion heater in a pipe usually) and then returns it to the mash tun.
Originally devised by Rodney Morris and described in the Gadgets Special
Issue of Zymurgy (I believe).  Actually, "Infusion" is a misnomer because
an infusion mash is one where hot water additions are used to raise the
temperature of the wort.  Still, a pretty cool idea.  It has apparently
been improved upon.  There was a review by George Fix of the new system
in a recent issue of Zymurgy -- near the back.
 
>What's an easymasher (TM)?
An easymasher is the kind you make at home.  An EasyMasher(tm) is one
that is made by the HBD's own Jack Schmidling.  Simply put, it is a
copper tube mounted in a pot, via a spigot, encircled by a cylinder of
stainless steel mesh.  I have been one of its most fervent critics in
the past.  Recently, I've done a small test of it.  All this test
really concluded for me was that indeed it is "easy" and that its
extraction was "acceptable."  I'm planning to do a full batch test of
it soon (a much fairer test than the meager 4# I did earlier) and will
report my findings here first.

*****
Steve asks about when and where is the Great British Beer Festival.

It's August 2nd through the 7th,
at the Grand Hall Olympia, Hammersmith Road, London, England.

Al.

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Date: 22 Mar 1994 16:04:07 -0500
From: George Kavanagh O/o <George.Kavanagh at omail.wang.com>
Subject: Wyeast 1056

Has anyone had experience with Wyeast 1056,
American Ale?  I have used it for the
last several batches, and have been
disappointed with bottle carbonation.

I have had good vigorous fermentations down to 
1.010 - 1.015, over 3 - 4 days, but have left the beer
in the carboy for 5 - 10 days after fermentation has
slowed to a crawl.

I have primed with 3/4 to 1 cup sugar, but even 2 months later,
carbonation, though present, has been minimal.

Is this yeast known to be difficult to start up
again??

Thanks in advance!

 -gk


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Date: Tuesday, 22 March 94 15:10:27 CST
From: LLAPV at utxdp.dp.utexas.edu
Subject: mixing yeasts

Howdy,

I have a friend that brewed a stout that came out with a hard to describe
off flavor.  When I was grilling him on what happened, I discovered that he
had accidently pitched two kinds of yeasts;  Yeast Lab Irish Ale with either
WYeast American or British Ale.  Not going into the details of why he did it,
but the WYeast was ready to pitch in a starter, & the Irish Ale yeast was
pitched straight out of the container.  Do any of you yeast masters have any
thoughts on this?  Could it cause a stout to develop any off flavors?  Will
these yeasts "mate" together, creating a new "breed"?  Anybody want some
mutt yeast?

Happy brewin' -----  Alan of Austin

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Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 16:12:50 EST
From: "darrin stolba" <darrin_stolba at smtp-gw.census.gov>
Subject: Chicago Brewpubs


can someone please send me the names of the brewpubs in Chicago

thanks

darrin_stolba at smtp-gw.census.com

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Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 16:32:15 EST
From: Keith MacNeal 22-Mar-1994 1627 <macneal at pate.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Oops

>From HOMEBREW Digest #1378

>Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 07:27:57 -0500 (EST)
>From: Doug Lukasik <LUKASIK_D at sunybroome.edu>
>Subject: Hop Utilization

>In HBD 1377 Keith MacNeal writes:
>>...the extract brewer is most certainly watering the wort down *after* 
>>fermentation.
>
>Not to argue with you Keith but I don't beleive this to be the case.  Most 
>extract brewers are boiling anywhere between 3 and 10 lbs of extract in 1.5
>to 3 gallons of water.  They are then diluting the resulting wort in the 
>primary to bring total volume up to 5 - 5.5 gallons.  This is done prior to 
>pitching the yeast so they are definately not watering the wort down after 
>fermentation.  

That's what I get for posting before my second cup of coffee.  "After 
fermentation" was staring me straight in the face but for some reason it came 
out as "after boil".  My apologies.

Keith MacNeal
Digital Equipment Corp.
Hudson, MA

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Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 17:15 EST
From: Jack Skeels <0004310587 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Egg whites for fining beer

Ahhh, at last, something that I can speak with knowledge on...

Steven Tollefsrud writes:

>I toured several wineries in Bordeaux last summer and saw this
>in practice. Most Bordeaux wines are clarified this way, using
>egg whites whipped up into a marengue-like lather and added to
>the oak barrels that the wine is aged in for a couple of years.

>It made me curious why this wasn't practiced in the beer industry.
>My guess is the gas in the beer would make a tremendous mess of
>the egg whites.

Steve, I think that economics play a much larger role.

Your average 50-gal wine barrel holds about 200 retail bottles of wine. 
Let's just say that the wine retails for $10 a bottle -- $2000 of retail
product per barrel.  the equivalent amount of beer, a little over three
kegs, retails for what,...about $150 max?  Let's say $200.  So we have a
10-to-1 price ratio for the product, allowing us to use expensive fining
ingredients.

Next, let's consider that the vast majority of wine is not fined using egg
whites or any other additive, they are racked (often as much as 5 times),
filtered, and centrifuged.  All of these processes are faster and less
messy, as well as cheaper.  That is why they are used for beer as well.

Even if you buy pre-separated egg-whites, the frothing and adding process is
very time consuming relative to your margin on the product.  

As a final note, the reason that wine makers use egg whites for fining is
partly historical -- micron-type filters didn't exist two-hundred years ago.
What egg-fining is done is done because of concerns about maintaining
quality while achieving clarification: filtration and the like remove
quality and body characteristics also.  Today, the only wines that are
egg-fined are the 2% of the wines that are in the super-premium category,
usually retailing for any where from $25 (domestic) to $500 (Bordeaux and
Burgundy) PER BOTTLE.  

It should suffice to say that I don't think that Baron Rothschild of Chateau
Lafite-Rothschild was really bothered by the cost of a couple dozen eggs
when making his $16,000 barrels of wine taste and look great.


Jack Skeels
JSKEELS at MCIMAIL.COM
                        Burma Shave        Home Brew Digest
                        -----------    =   ----------------
                         Route  66         Info Super Hwy.

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Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 17:21:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Allen Kelm <kelmmark at student.msu.edu>
Subject: growing hops


What varieties of hops are best suited to coastal southwestern Michigan?

Mark A. K.


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Date: 23 Mar 94  7:25:53 ES
From: Brian J. Cecil <Brian_J.._Cecil at wecnotes.semcor.com>
Subject: Re: Two-Stage Fermentation

>> The two-stage process allows me to package the finished beers at my leisure 
without
>> concerns of autolysis (can occur is beer is left on a large yeast mass
>> for too long)

I've heard about this in several homebrew forums, can anyone tell me how I can 
determine if my brew is suffering from this phenomenon?  Also, how long does 
beer have to sit on a large yeast mass before this occurs?

Cheers,

Brian


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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 08:52:27 EST
From: Allan Rubinoff <rubinoff at BBN.COM>
Subject: Pike Place in Vermont?

Gordon Baldwin writes:

>Pike Place Pale Ale is from the Pike Place brewery at the Pike Place
>market in Seattle. I would be very supprised if it was brewed in
>Vermont. (Well maybe not too supprised, but I would be dissapointed) It
>is a very small brewery and if you stop by when they are brewing and
>show some interest they might invite you in to help out.  I have never
>noticed a chocolate flavor in the Pale.

In addition to being brewed at the Pike Place brewery in Seattle, this
ale is also brewed under contract (for east coast distribution) at the
Catamount Brewery in White River Junction, VT.  (Catamount is an
excellent brewery, and in addition to their own beers, makes a fair
number of contract brews.)  I don't know if there are any substantial
differences between the stuff brewed in Seattle and the version brewed
in Vermont, but I assume they use the same recipe.  

In any case, this is probably the maltiest pale ale I've ever tasted,
though I'm not sure I would describe the flavor as chocolately.  I
assume the maltiness is due to the use of Maris Otter malt, which
probably also accounts for the high price ($10 a six-pack).  It's worth
the price, though, and I'm glad we east coasters can get the stuff, even
if it's contract brewed.  Unfortunately, it's the only Pike Place beer
we can get here.  I've heard some of their other beers are great as well.


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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 05:52:33 -0800 (PST)
From: weix at netcom.com (Patrick Weix)
Subject: Culturing yeast from the bottle...

Dear All,

In the soon to be updated Yeast FAQ (no really, I promise), I would
like to have a section on culturing yeast from the bottle. Please send
me your sucess stories, failures, warnings about conditioning yeast,
methods, and whatever else you would like to share.

Thanks,

Patrick
weix at netcom.com

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 08:32:32 EST
From: "John R. Calen - Contacting Systems - E.F., N.Y." <calen at vnet.IBM.COM>
Subject: The "What gets Mashed?" Thread

The discussion to this point has been with regard to malts. I'm curious about
the adjuncts as well. Flaked barley, corn, oats, and unmalted wheat (read as
flour if you want) I've been adding to the mash. I don't think anyone would
care to add flour to the boil unless they want barley gravy. Does any of the
above sound shaky?

Also, regarding dextrins, since they are sugars, not starches, they should
survive a mash intact, Shouldn't they?

Dark grains I've been steeping like tea in tepid, not boiling water. I'm not
sure I get the most efficient flavor extraction (I'm not expecting ferment-
ables here), but emprically, it works.

Regards,
John Calen  --  Calen at vnet.IBM.COM

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 9:51:04 EST
From: Steve Scampini <scampini at hp-and.an.hp.com>
Subject: CO2 Generation

I was wondering...alot of brewing processes can involve the addition
of a blanket of CO2 to prevent oxidation.  Most people recommend
a blast of CO2 from a bottled source, preferably through a filter.
For those of us who don't have a ready source of bottled CO2, is it
possible to generate small quantities via some sort of kitchen 
chemistry.  Certainly vinegar and baking soda will make CO2 on
demand, but probably contaminated by vinegar funes.  Could an 
in-line sanitized water scrubber clean up the gas?  Also the
thought crossed my mind that simply heated baking soda will 
liberate CO2 and the heat will probably kill the beasties.  
Has anyone out there tried anything like this?  Thanks in
advance... more of a pondering than a hard need for info.

Steve Scampini

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 09:58:40 EST
From: 23-Mar-1994 0955 -0500 <ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com>
Subject: cutting your fridge

>Date: Tue, 22 Mar 94 10:53:02 PST
>From: bgros at sensitivity.berkeley.edu (Bryan L. Gros)
>Subject: modifying refrigerators
>
>What are other people's suggestions or experience with drilling a
>hole in the side of a refrigerator for a gas line?  What should I

It should be no sweat.  I have a small fridge that I made into my keg
fridge.  I drilled a 3/8-1/2" hole in the side (from the outside) for
the CO2 line.  Used a file to make it nice.  My CO2 hose fits nice and
snug in there.  I also put a tap in the front.

What I encountered was this sheet metal on the outside, insulation next,
about 1" worth, than plastic.  I doubt you'll encounter freon lines in the
wall of the fridge, but, ya nevah know!

jc

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Date:      Tue, 22 Mar 1994 15:48:44 MST
From: "BKYLE" <BKYLE at library.csf.edu>
Subject:   Starting Out

I am going to purchase my first homebrewing kit relatively soon and
I'm wondering what would be a nice and easy brew to start off with?

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 07:54:47 +0800
From: bjones at novax.llnl.gov (Bob Jones)
Subject: Grains in the mashout, drilling holes in a frig.

Jim Busch wrote...

>While I prefer to add all of my grains at the beginning, I must admit 
>that Bobs beers were some of the best beers Ive had.  Maybe Ill try it
>in my next porter.

and the following came from Taylor Standlee..
 
>In the last several digests I have followed the thread on Specialty Malt
>additions at mashout with interest.  It seems to me that if these grains
>are added at mashout they will be under-utilized.  Even though the crystal
>malts and dextrine malts are basically pre-mashed it doesn't seems that
>they will have enough time to disolve their sugars.  Maybe adding them
>during the last 15 minutes of the mash would allow for more solubilty.


Thanks Jim! Jim stopped by on his recent trip to Calif. We had a few brews
and shot the bull about guess what? Well none of those beers you had Jim had
the grains added at mashout. I would also guess you MIGHT have been
influenced by the FREE beer phenomena. Nah.

Now I know the article that Micah and I authored did suggest this idea of
adding specialty grains at mashout. Well I'll try to give you all some
perspective on my uses of these techniques. For a quick review on the
general ideas behind the article, we stated that adding grains at mashout
was a way to potentially produce more melanoidins. Those malty smelling good
guys. Additionally the grains added at mashout don't leach as much harsh
roasted notes into the final beer probably due to their reduced exposure in
the mash. Well in practice I add specialty grains at mashout for Porters,
Stouts and maybe Bocks. The Porters and Stouts because I want to reduce the
roast grain bite and the Bocks to increase those malty notes. Now I will
also state that a mashout to me is raising the final mash up to about 170f.
It takeas about 10 mins for me to do this. I then rest the mash for 10 mins.
before the start of sparging. I have known of some brewers adding grains at
mashout and not raising the temp. It don't work! As for the amount of grain
required to accomplish the same color, yep it does take a bit more. Maybe
about 20% more as a guess. Try it, you may like it.


Brian Grosse asks about drilling holes in a frig....

>What are other people's suggestions or experience with drilling a
>hole in the side of a refrigerator for a gas line?  What should I
>look out for?  Do you plug the hole with anything after inserting
>the gas line?

Most frig gas lines run up the back of the frig. There isn't USUALLY
anything in the sides except insulation. To be safe, drill a small hole from
the inside, probe and drill slowly and you should be fine. If you hit a gas
line, just plug the leak with a little gum and enjoy those warmer beer flavors.

Brewely yours,

Bob Jones
bjones at novax.llnl.gov



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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 10:56:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: California brewpubbing, pt 2

Its been a few days, so hopefully Jeff wont flame me:-)

California brewpubin' 94, pt 2


Day 3:

gak and I head north, stopping at Marin Brewing.  Ive been
here before and they only had the Mt Tam pale ale online.
Same thing this time except they had some fruit beers. I
realize this place is known for fruit beers, but neither
gak or I are into fruits, so there wasnt much to sample.
We did have an amusing time watching the brewer try to
figure out how to run his DE filter.  The ale is a bit
on the super citrous side, and I like Cascades, but there
is something about the hopping blend in this one that was
not right for my palate.

Next stop, Peteluma Brewing.  Not too much to say here.
I had the sampler, not a winner in the bunch.

On to Mendocino Brewing.  I have really liked the Red Tail
in the past and was looking forward to the visit. Sadly,
all of the products were yeasty, hazy, young and displaying
a ferment character.  I have to wonder if success is getting
in the way of good beer.  I also bought two six's of Red Tail
in the SF Bay area, and the same general faults were found.

On to Anderson Valley via a snowstorm that few Californians
seemed comfortable to drive in.  Fortuneatly, gak found a 
way around them, as I was having flashbacks to the frozen
east coast I had just left.  Unfortuneatly, we drove right
by AV, and so we ended up at Ft. Bragg.

Ft. Bragg was a blast!  A busy coastal town, the bar was
full but we got a place.  A Jazz band played to dinner
and beers.  The beers were excellent.  Red Seal, Trad. Bock
 .....
The area is beautiful, and the pub was well worth a visit.
I could see myself living in this area.

Day 4:

Anderson Valley.  A well stocked selection of beers, 8-9
in total.  All well made beers, with the exception of the
"Belgian Ale:, which sadly displayed the signs of Wyeast
Belgian yeast (phenols and Banana).  A real haven for the
dark beer lover, as three differnet porters/stouts were 
available.  A pretty good ESB had us heading south through
the wine country.

Calistoga Brewing:  located in a little trendy wine tasting
town, the brewery actually had some good beers.  Despite
being warned previously of the lager, I had an excellent
hoppy (dry hopped, but hey, its america) lager and some
good ESB.  

Napa: another loser.

Pacific Coast:  OK, its an extract brewery, so I didnt 
even bother with thier beers, but with about 15 quality
micros on tap, you go for the good stuff.  A Celis Wit
was just right to top it off.  Later in the week I would try thier beers
and for extracts, they really are not bad.  High alcohol high 
hops is the order here.

Good quaffing,

Jim Busch

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Date: 23 Mar 94 16:04:26 GMT
From: GANDE at slims.attmail.com
Subject: Pike Place Pale Ale


From: gbaldw at zaphod.usin.com (Gordon Baldwin)

>
>> My buddy Carlo made it over to my house on Saturday with his usual
>>handful of "imports" for us to sample. In the array was a bottle of
>> Pike Place Pale Ale, unavailable to us up in Canada. I was
>>intrigued > by the intense chocolate flavor, where does this come
 ...Snip

(Gordons response)
>Pike Place Pale Ale is from
>the Pike Place brewery at the Pike Place market in Seattle. I would
>be very supprised if it was brewed in Vermont. (Well maybe not too
>supprised, but I would be dissapointed) It is a very small brewery
>and if you stop by when they are brewing and show some interest they
>might invite you in to help out.  I have never noticed a chocolate
>flavor in the Pale.
>
>Gordon Baldwin
>gbaldw at usin.com

Geez, Gordon sorry to disappoint you. Sez on the bottle:

Pike Place Pale Ale (the standard painted on left coast bottle
                     design)
Microbrewed using the finest...(blah..)
Proudly Brewed & Bottled by Wht River Junct, VT, 05001

Even though I'm a frostbitten Canadian, VT means Vermont to me. :)
The bottle also has redemption states on the back for NY, MA, etc.

Re: the chocolate flavor, perhaps my question was ambiguous. I was
interested in where the chocolate flavor came from in the beer not
where the beer came from. Carlo also noticed the flavor, perhaps it's
something indigenous to Vermont? Are we the only folkes that taste
chocolate in the Pale Ale?

Gordons suggestion to drop by while they're brewing certainly seems
inviting, but the 3000 mile drive makes it a bit of a hassle. If
anyone has their mailing address please EMAIL it to the address below
and I'll drop them a line.

Thanks in advance....Glenn Anderson
EMAIL: GANDE at SLIMS.ATTMAIL.COM











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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 10:32:00 est
From: "Ball, Timothy B" <ballti at uh2372p03.daytonoh.NCR.COM>
Subject: Pike Place Pale


>Pike Place Pale Ale is from the Pike Place brewery at the Pike Place
>market in Seattle. I would be very supprised if it was brewed in
>Vermont. (Well maybe not too supprised, but I would be dissapointed) It
>is a very small brewery and if you stop by when they are brewing and
>show some interest they might invite you in to help out.  I have never
>noticed a chocolate flavor in the Pale.

 - --
>Gordon Baldwin
>gbaldw at usin.com



Pike Place Pale is also brewed in Indianapolis.  The bottle is the same as 
the Seattle brewed  version but the fine print says Indianapolis. I've had 
the "real" stuff in Seattle and had the Indianapolis version.  The 
Indianapolis version is surprisingly good.  I have never noticed a chocolate 
flavor either.  However,  it does have a unique taste that I can't figure 
out.   Does any one have a extract/specialty grain recipe for this?

Tim Ball
tim.ball at daytonoh.ncr.com

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 12:44:44 +0000
From: Linda Fardy <Linda_Fardy at qmgate.wgbh.org>
Subject: Party pig question

Hi to all,
I'm new to the digest and am enjoying reading all the articles.  I also have a 
question about the party pig system. Has anyone tried it and how has it worked?
  I'd appreciate any comments about it.
I'm also looking for a recipe for a brew like Sam Adams Cranberry Lambic.  I'm 
not sure if it is truly a lambic, but I like it and want to copy it.  If 
anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear from you.
I haven't seen any women on the digest, am I the only one?
Linda Fardy       linda_fardy at wgbh.org
Wilmington, MA



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Date: 23 Mar 94 11:37 CST
From: Wolfe at act-12-po.act.org
Subject: Cut-off kegs

     Recently, someone sent in a phone number for a company that sells
cut-off, acid-dipped kegs for conversion to brewing kettles.  I'm sorry to
take up space, but I lost the phone number and couldn't find it in the
archives.  Could someone send me the phone number and name of this company?

Thanks,

Ed Wolfe
wolfe at act-12-po.act.org

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 12:50:00 CST
From: "Merchant, Thomas E" <temercha at hsv23.pcmail.ingr.com>
Subject: About Breaking Bottles


How about another breaking bottle story...

I only use returnable bar bottles and cap with a bench capper.  I broke a 
bottle a few months ago and what a mess it was!  The bottle disintegrated 
into a gazillion tiny fragments that flew all over the kitchen.  I was cut 
and spent the next two hours cleaning up the mess.  My wife found little 
slivers of glass for days, and was she ever happy about that!

Before I broke the bottle I would to leave a little circular dent on the top 
of each cap.  I decided that I might be applying a little too much pressure, 
so I no longer leave dents in the caps.  I'm convinced that the glass of the 
bottle that broke was flawed, but I don't want to risk applying any more 
pressure then is needed when capping these days.

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 11:01:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Alpha acid solubility

Allen Ford <allen at darwin.sfbr.org> writes:
> 
> > Chemically/thermodynamically speaking, it makes sense that more 
> >bitterness (aka iso-alpha acids) can be extracted in a greater volume -- 
> >much the same way you can dissolve more sugar into a pot of coffee than 
> >you can in a mug of coffee.
> 
> This is true only if the solution is at the saturation point of the 
> solute.  Using your analogy, a teaspoon of sugar will dissolve equally 
> well in both volumes.  A pound of sugar would not.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong, but under normal hopping regimens, iso-
> alpha acids are nowhere near saturation concentration.  It seems realistic
> to expect as much iso-aa to go into solution in 2-3 gallons as in 5-50 
> gallons given the same amount of hops and the same gravity. 
> 
> This is where I have been having problems with Mark Garetz's comments 
> from 15 March where he states that increasing the hopping rate reduces 
> utilization in the boil.   
> 
> Please help me understand this.  Where does my logic fail?  Just out of 
> curiosity, what is saturation for iso-aa in beer wort?
> 
*End of quote, start of JB's rambling*

I believe the misunderstanding is that it is not the concentration of ISO-
alpha acids that is limiting, but the concentration of alpha acids.  A larger
boil volume allows more of sparingly soluble UNISOMERIZED resins to be 
dissolved, allowing more to be isomerized per unit time.  Also, the use of more
hops cannot overcome this solubility limit, so the utilization is decreased
in highly hopped beers.
 
Quote from Malting and Brewing Science, 2nd Ed. pg 489:
In wort boiling higher utilization is obtained from weak worts than from
strong worts [No reference!] and, as may be anticipated from the solubility 
of humulone (Fig. 14.5), hops are utilized more efficiently at low rates than
at high ones.  Indeed, it was concluded that the solubility of humulone
was the limiting factor in its utilization.

Jeremy Bergsman  jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
 
 


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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 10:11:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at ZGI.COM>
Subject: Mash specialty grains?

I have always mashed my specialty grains, and lately I've felt that I am
not getting the specialty grain characteristics I expect (I can be a slow
learner).  However, I also do not do a mashout as I mash in and sparge
from the same cooler (warmer?).  How about adding the specialty grains to
the sparge water to steep while bringing it up to temperature?  The only
problem I see is a possibly tannin extraction from a high (7 ish) pH.

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com




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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 13:54:08 edt
From: Greg_Habel at DGC.ceo.dg.com
Subject: Calculating Degrees Lovibond.

Message:
Recently I have read George Fix's book on brewing Viennas and 
Oktoberfest beers.  At the end of the book he mentions a technique 
for determining the degrees lovibond in a beer by using a "standard". 
The standard used is Michelob Dark with a known 17 degrees lovibond.  
I've checked all over the place to find Michelob Dark and no one 
carries it anymore.  The question is:  Can I use a substitute if I 
know the degrees lovibond?  For example: Sam Adams Cream Stout is 60 
degrees lovibond (according to one of the brewers).  If I were to 
dilute this roughly 3 times (20 degrees lovibond), could I use 
George's graph in the book?  Hmmm.  Anyone have any suggestions?  
As soon as I master this, I'll demonstrate the technique at our Worry 
Worts club meeting in Milford MA.  Greg.



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Date: 23 Mar 94 19:22:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: icebeer

Scott writes:
>So if its true that freezing a portion water gives you nearly pure
>ice, with nearly everything else remaing in the liquid, what is the point 
>of icebeer?  They freeze and extract some of the water - which I suspect
>is H2O and only H2O.  Then they add back `pure' water to make up the
>volume loss.  Did I miss something?

Yes, Scott, you missed a marketing class.  It's a ploy, a marketing tool,
something to keep people from trying microbrewed beers.

"A perceived need [by the customer] is a need" someone once said.  Let's
say, for example, a company convinced the homebrewing public that knowing
the oil content of your hops will help you get more consistent dryhopped
beers.  Despite the fact that to be useful one must also know what fraction
of that oil is myrcene, companies that label oil content on their hops would
be perceived as having a superior product, which would not necessarily be
the case.

Al.

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 14:25:31 CST
From: chrisry at elmhcx9.elmhurst.edu (Chris Ryan)
Subject: Homebrewing

ncern, how bad is the brew going to smell before I get it bottled. I have
someone who can get the materials that I need to make the beer and get it
bottled but I am not sure how much this guy is going to charge me. I need to
know some basic prices to know if I am getting ripped off or not. I also need a
sure fire recipe. I know that there are over a million recipes that depend on
amounts of ingredients and the amount of time that the brew will be sitting.
If you could send a reply to chrisry at elmhcx9.elmhurst.edu it would be greatly
appreciated. Thank you.

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Date:          Wed, 23 Mar 1994 15:22:38 EDT
From: "Erik Mitchell" <ERIK at dcsmserver.med.scarolina.edu>
Subject:       cannibis beer

Is there anyone out there who has heard of a cannibis brewing 
technique?  

In order to keep the thc fresh in the beer and to prevent 
oxidation of thc, etc., I expect adding an extracted syrup generated 
by soaking or pressure cooking with alcohol would be best.  I dont 
think using two oz of cannibis as hops is any brewing project I would 
want to invest in.. 



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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 16:02:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: California brewing, pt 3 (last)

After the weekend north of SF, gak and I found a few 
additional places to quaff.  Heres the summary.

Los Gatos:

Another in the trendy California Brewsterauants mold, lager
brewery, brick oven pizza (painfully expensive for the size,
but it is Los Gatos), large open "German" style beer hall.
The beers were all well made and this makes it worth the
visit.  Nice shirts with the brewery logo, and the brewer
is doing a good job with the beers.

Gordon Biersch, SF:

Well, Dan certainly blew a wad on the sudhaus in this place!
One of those temperature controlled hands off all SS German
breweries.  I kinda like the German flavor of this and the
Palo Alto pubs, but you gotta wonder about the cost benefit 
ratio of such a premium German system over some of the 
better made US ones.  But then again, its been a long time
since Dan has had to worry about cash flow. The unis were 
from Pub brewing.  Dan has changed the logo on the glassware,
so if your a collector, theres new ones to be had.

Typical GB lagers, good refreshing clean Export.  Caramelly
maerzen.  Unfortuneatly, the Dunkles was showing diacetyl. 
Again, brick oven goods, very trendy (at the base of the 
Oakland bay Bridge).  

BTW, the GB served at the San Jose arena was in top form.  
Seemed very close to the quality from the SF and Palo
Alto operations.  Its a real treat to watch a hockey game
and drink a damn good beer.

Thats it, not too much to report, but it was real fun.

Jim Busch



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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 14:58:37 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Michalski, MD" <michalski_jm at rophys.wustl.edu>
Subject: C-keg valves/dispensing

I recently came across some cheap c-kegs in a local 
scrap metal yard.  They were pin-lock kegs in excellent
condition, even holding pressure with some syrup residue 
in them.  I cleaned them up and replaced all the o-rings.
Unfortunately, the safety/bleed valves are not like my other
kegs.  My old ones had a pin on the lid that allowed gas
release when pulled.  These valves are nipple shaped and
have no obvious moving parts.  They have platic inserts
that seem to require a special tool to operate.

Well, because the kegs had held pressure when I got them, I
figured that with beer related pressures (10-20 psi) I would
be OK.  However, after sanitizing one with CTSP and boiling
the lid I placed 5 gallons of my latest ale in one of them.
When I went to pressurized the keg, gas leaked from this 
nipple shaped valve!

Does anyone have experience with these C-keg pressure release
 valves?  Are there special tools or replacement
 parts for these valves?  Instructions?
 
 By the way, regarding keg dispensing, Al Korzanos said:
>  See Dave Miller's article
>in the 1992 AHA National Conference Proceedings, 
>"Just Brew It."  I did my math, adjusted my hose lengths
>and can serve and store at the same pressure without 
>problems, one pint a week if I wish.

I don't know where to get these proceedings.  Can someone summarize 
this on the hbd?  Private email if it is too long.
JEFF M. MICHALSKI
michalski_jm at rophys.wustl.edu


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Date: Wednesday, 23 March 94 16:00:29 CST
From: LLDSC at utxdp.dp.utexas.edu
Subject: "special" hops



Okay,

Enough with the talk about mashing, sparging, hop rhizomes and all that
garbage. Let's get back to our favorite topic on the HBD: cannabis beer.

I just put a batch into the fermenter about two weeks ago. I put some of
the "special" hops in the boil and then added the rest to the secondary
fermenter. The beer is an IPA with about 6.5% alcohol. I'm going to let
it sit in the secondary for about 10 days and then bottle it (this
weekend)

A friend of mine was telling me that he saw a book on pot beer at our

local head shop. Not that I would ever go into one of those or anything
like that.

I realize that this may not work. The alcohol might not be enough to
dissolve the THC, etc., et al. Don't worry, I got my "special" hops for
free.

Feel free to send comments on your own experiences. I'll be sure to
post the results.

                           Keep on keepin on'

                           Scott  LLDSC at utxdp.dp.utexas.edu

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Date: 23 Mar 1994 13:38:52 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Not Boiling the Wort: Ramifications?

Hi Group, 
There is an interesting thread going on in rec.crafts.brewing, with several
novice brewers raising questions on what they are losing or missing by not
boiling the wort, as some of their kits recommend. Hops utilization aside...

The best question to come from this is:
If the wort is not boiled, and the Hot Break does not form and settle to the
bottom, What additional fermentation products could result that could affect
the beers flavor?  

My understanding thus far is that these proteins would remain in solution were
they would be available to the yeast and may be metabolized into fusels,
esters, or the dreaded ring-around-the-collar. (just kidding)

Could some of you brewing chemists comment on this?

John Palmer MDA-SSD M&P palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 17:33:06 CST
From: "kim.paffenroth.1" <kim.paffenroth.1 at nd.edu>
Subject: saints

There are two in fact:

St. Amand - born ca. 584; founded monasteries in France; patron of everything
related to beer, wine, and brewing.

St. Wenceslaus of Bohemia - born ca. 907; patron of Bohemia and brewers;
martyr (murdered by his own brother in 929).

Or so the story goes....

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 18:07:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Wayde Nie <niew at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca>
Subject: back issues of AHA National Conference proceedings

Hi All,
	Al mentions AHA Conference proceedings about calculating proper 
keg pressures (Dave Millers article,1992). I was wondering where one can 
get a copy of these documents. Is it archived anywhere on the net?

thanks,
Wayde Nie


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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 18:48:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Wayde Nie <niew at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca>
Subject: Fridge modifications.

Hi all,
	Bryan Gros ask about fridge modifications in #1379. To his 
suggestions I would add, seal the hole with silicon when you have fitted 
the line. If you don't then moisture from the air will get into the 
insulation in the fridge wall and cause mold/mildew and will lower the 
insulating ability of your fridge.

HPH, 
Wayde Nie


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1380, 03/24/94