FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Plastics and permiability (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Broken bottles (I'm a STEELWORKER ... I kill what I eat)
  pls remove me (Norma Young [CONTRACTOR])
  Low ETOH Ales (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  NDN:Homebrew Digest #1380 (March 24, 1994) (network_manager)
  Coors Eis Bock ("Ball, Timothy B")
  The Latest Brewpub (Allan Janus)
  Ice Beer (GNT_TOX_)
  Problem with mites on hops (Francisco Jones)
  A "Q" beer, no, not STAR TREK (ambroser)
  Must Mash?/RIMS/easymasher/Great British Beer Fest (Steve Mosher)
  Blackbeery Stout (Chris Strickland)
  patron saint of brewers... (Steven Tollefsrud)
  "Batch Latch" company info needed (Kyle Griffin)
  H2O Filtration Effects (Chris Pencis)
  NOTE 03/24/94 10:59:00 (53105)
  Icebeer: A Theory (Jim Cave)
  Re: CO2 Generation (Chip Hitchcock)
  Mini-Keg system (rprice)
  Press relief valves in old Coca Cola Kegs ("McCaw, Mike")
  easy masher (Jack Schmidling)
  Liquid Yeast question (BUKOFSKY)
  Re: Brewpub list in Chicago ("Roger Deschner  ")
  Brew-on-Premise (GARY SINK 206-553-4687)
  Grains at mashout (U-E68316-Scott Wisler)
  Hop Rate Comments and Equation (Mark Garetz)
  Cranberry Ale (a907932)
  Swing Top Carbonation (MARK CASTLEMAN)
  re: Pike Place Ale (berkun)
  tarnished brewpot (Tim Lawson)
  mixing yeast strains (Tim Lawson)
  Mini kegs and cutoff kegs (mike.keller)


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For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 24 Mar 94 00:43:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Plastics and permiability

Scott asks about the O2-permiability of polypropylene.

>From the good old Cole-Parmer catalog, plasticware section:

Plastic			O2 Permiability in 10^-10(cc-m)/(sec-cm^2-cmHg)
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
High-density Polyethylene               10
Low-density Polyethylene                60
Nylon                                    1
Polycarbonate                           20
Polypropylene                           25
Polystyrene                             15
Polyvinyl chloride                    1 to 6

the proprietary plastic I
use for my hop packaging               0.2

Al.

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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 11:34:57 EST
From: I'm a STEELWORKER ... I kill what I eat <aidan at rschp2.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Broken bottles
Full-Name: I'm a STEELWORKER ... I kill what I eat

Number Of Tries Scored In Touch Rugby: 1  *YAY!*
Favourite Record Store: Relic Records
Favourite Friend Who Used To Have Pink Hair: Sue Bennett
Favourite Performances At The Big Day Out: TISM and TIDDAS
Number Of Different E-mail addresses: Nine !! - Beat that!
Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85]

Hiya

Sorry if this is a little late but ...

In HOMEBREW Digest #1376 AYLSWRTH at MANVM2.VNET.IBM.COM wrote:

> I've never received so much e-mail from a post as I did from the one
> last Monday talking about the bottle that broke while I was capping.

*and a whole lot more that I snipped for the sake of the Great 
God BANDWIDTH ..  all supplicate at it's mighty name!* 

Anyhow ...  I just thought I would add that I have done a total 
of about 10 batches (mostly extract + specialty grains and one 
partial mash (a weizen would you believe - looks good too!)).  

Being in a reasonably civilised country I bottle all my beer in 
750 ml bottles.  I use a funny little (read cheap) hand capper 

*WARNING: ASCII ART TO FOLLOW*

		 ____
		|    |
		|    |
		|    |
		|    |  <--- Wooden handle
		|    |
		|    |
		|____|
	       /      \ <--- Metal flange
	      /        \

This is then placed over the cap (which is resting on the mouth 
of the bottle) and I proceed to wack it with a piece of 4"x2" 
wood.  I have NEVER broken a bottle (and I have capped approx 280 
bottles).  

To add to my list if sins ...  I use water straight out of my 
tap, and am pretty laxt about sanitation - never had an infection 
either.  

Moral: (you knew there had to be one) Chill out.

Later

Aidan

P.S.  Who saw Anna Pacquin on the Oscars??  Cool huh!  (I am an 
ex-pat New Zealander in deep cover in Australia!) 

- --
Aidan Heerdegen				

Research School Of Chemistry
The Australian National University
A.C.T 0200
Phone: 2493579
e-mail: aidan at rschp2.anu.edu.au

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 17:29:31 +0800
From: Norma.Young at Eng.Sun.COM (Norma Young [CONTRACTOR])
Subject: pls remove me

My contract at Sun is ending. Please remove me.

	Thanks, Norma Young

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 23:26:33 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Low ETOH Ales

Low alcohol ales are certainly possible, and can be quite good.
Consider, for example, the various Scottish Ale, Mild Ale, and Bitter
styles:

Style                      OG Range      Alc range    IBUs    Color (SRM)
 - -----                    ------------    ----------  -------  -----------
Scottish Light Ale       1.030 - 1.035   3.0 -  4.0   9 - 15   8.0 - 17.0
Scottish Heavy Ale       1.035 - 1.040   3.5 -  4.0  12 - 17  10.0 - 19.0
English Mild Ale         1.032 - 1.036   2.5 -  3.6  14 - 20  17.0 - 34.0
English Ordinary Bitter  1.035 - 1.038   3.0 -  3.5  20 - 25   8.0 - 12.0

All of these are under 1.040 OG and under 4% alcohol by volume (thus
under 3.2% by weight as required by some states in the US).  I don't
think that anyone who has had a good example of one of these would
disagree that they have flavor.  I recently made a Scottish 70/-
(1.036, so in the "Heavy" category) that was very well received by
Scots friends.  The recipe went something like this:

Scottish 70/- (5 US gallons)

4.5 lbs British pale malt
 .75 lbs Munich malt
 .4 lb Belgian Special B malt

Single infusion mash at 70C, sparge 6 gallons

Boil with 4-5 HBUs bittering hops 60 min.  Flavor/aroma hops optional
(for authenticity, you'd leave them out).

I fermented with YeastLab Irish Ale yeast, but the Wyeast Scottish Ale
might be a better choice.  Don't forget to make a starter.

To make this from extract, start with 5 lbs of amber malt syrup, or
4lbs amber dry malt extract, steep the Special B in water at 160-170F
for 30 minutes and strain into the brewpot.  If doing a reduced volume
boil, you'll need to increase the hops (maybe double).

The key here is introducing a fairly high level of flavor-carrying
malt (primarily the Special B, but also the Munich), and mashing at a
high temperature to keep the fermentable level low (obviously you've
got no control over this in an extract batch, except by which extract
you choose).

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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 01:07:22 PDT
From: network_manager at aldus.com
Subject: NDN:Homebrew Digest #1380 (March 24, 1994)

Your mail to the Microsoft Mail Server could not be fully
delivered!   No Valid Addresses!   It has been deleted.

Error List:
  Bad 'To:' Address: john.mostrom at MSM-Inter



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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 07:52:00 est
From: "Ball, Timothy B" <ballti at uh2372p03.daytonoh.NCR.COM>
Subject: Coors Eis Bock


I had the new Coors Eis Bock last night and I was very impressed.   It is a 
light amber color with a malt flavor fairly similar to this years 
Winterfest.  (I thought the Winterfest was decent the Eis Bock is good).  It 
had a very good hop bitterness.  Hop bitterness? From Coors?  Yes!  I gave 
it the GBU alpha acid test  (Girl friend Bittering Units).  She tasted it 
and said "hoppy  YUK".  That means it has to be good.   Coors also has a 
pitch on the side of the 6-pack carton for their  Wheat beer coming out this 
summer.

Tim Ball

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Date:         Thu, 24 Mar 94  08:24:29 EST
From: Allan Janus <NASARC07 at SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject:      The Latest Brewpub


Washington DC area friends of malt will be gratified to hear of the area's
newest brewpub, the Old Town Tavern, opening March 31 in downtown Gaithersburg,
Maryland. I haven't been in it yet, but I've pressed my nose against the
window and it's an impressive set-up. I'll taste & tell after the big day.


Allan Janus NASARC07 at SIVM.SI.EDU


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Date:     Thu, 24 Mar 94 08:55 EST
From: <GNT_TOX_%ALLOY.BITNET at PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:  Ice Beer

After having tasted Ice Beer, I have determined that it's not the same
stuff as the regular megabrew.  The taste is different, almost
nonexistant.  I really believe that Ice Beer is an attempt to show the
public that there has been some advance in brewing technology that
only the big boys can do. God, if you want to make a beer the average
micorbrewer or homebrewer can't make, start making lambic!
Since they refuse to go through the expense
of going all-malt, they're trying to show you that they've improved in
other ways.  Hell, I just heard a commercial on the radio from Bud
saying how they use rice instead of corn in their beer because it
gives better flavor and is more expensive.  Perhaps these guys never
heard of using, oh, I don't know, say......MALT!  GET A CLUE
MEGABREWS!

I do have to praise some breweries like Coors and Miller for trying to
make a beer other than their usual swill.  Coors has that new Eisbock
and is coming out with a weizen.  Impresses me that they would even
try.  Miller has their reserve and Stout, both of which are at least
an attempt.

Andy Pastuszak
Philadelphia, PA


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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 08:54:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Francisco Jones <fjones at cs.uml.edu>
Subject: Problem with mites on hops

My Hallertau hop rhizomes are about to start their second growing
season here in Massachusetts.  Last year, they started out
vigorously, but mid to late in the season I got a _large_
infestation of spider mites which totally devastated the vines
and destroyed the few cones that had been produced (they smelled
great before that though).  Since this is the second year, I am
looking forward to a potentially larger cone harvest, and so I
would really like to avoid the same problem.  Can anyone provide
me guidance on controling spider mites WITHOUT the use of a
systemic insecticide?  I will use one if I have to, but I would
prefer a more environmentally harmonious solution.  Thanks.

Francisco Jones
fjones at cs.uml.edu


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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 08:50:11 -0500
From: ambroser at apollo.dml.georgetown.edu
Subject: A "Q" beer, no, not STAR TREK

Since this get all across the U.S. (and other places) I figured I'd ask.

Is there a brewery (not defunct) that brews a beer that begins with a "Q".
I'm particularly interested if it is available in PA, MD, WV, VA or down the
east coast, including Florida. Also Quebec and Ontario.

It would be nice to know if a "Q" is brewed anywhere in the world, but I
don't intend to fly there to get it. I'm traveling to Montreal' this summer
so Quebec and Ontario are OK. 

To date, the only beer I've heard of WAS from a brewery in Maryland and it
WAS called Queensbrau. I collect bottles and have every letter of the
alphabet (and then some) except "Q".

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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 09:09:35 -0500
From: mosher at sidmav01.us.dg.com (Steve Mosher)
Subject: Must Mash?/RIMS/easymasher/Great British Beer Fest

 From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas  
> >What's an easymasher (TM)?
> An easymasher is the kind you make at home.  An EasyMasher(tm) is one
> that is made by the HBD's own Jack Schmidling.  Simply put, it is a
> copper tube mounted in a pot, via a spigot, encircled by a cylinder of
> stainless steel mesh.  I have been one of its most fervent critics in
> the past.  Recently, I've done a small test of it.  All this test
> really concluded for me was that indeed it is "easy" and that its
> extraction was "acceptable."  I'm planning to do a full batch test of
> it soon (a much fairer test than the meager 4# I did earlier) and will
> report my findings here first.
>

I bought an EasyMasher(tm) from Jack, I have done my first 2 all-grains
with it, and it is as its namesake suggests easy. My pts/per/lb for the first
batch was 28. I somewhat followed Miller's mashing schedule, and I used
9 lbs 2 row pale malt that was crushed with a motorized Corona. The problems
I have encountered is that the Sparge will stick, my solution is
to pick-up the hose, I attach the racking hose to the spigot, and
it back-flushes the screen and then runs fine. Now I know that
this is probably due to the Corona crush, but I can't afford a roller
mill at this time, and the homebrew store crushes the grain the free.
The other problem is I need a quicker thermometer.   

I think that reguardless of what method you chose to mash, the important
part is to start mashing. I've noticed that the beer is smoother and
doesn't have that bite. The more times you mash the more proficient
you will become. There are probably as many ways to mash as there are
readers of the HBD, and each one of them has there own merits. I guess
the end_all is whatever works for you. 
   Steve Mosher          REPLY to mosher at apxtg03.apex.dg.com  
   919-387-5218

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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 09:13:57 -0500
From: stricklandc at cocoa12.ksc.nasa.gov (Chris Strickland)
Subject: Blackbeery Stout

Just a follow-up on my blackberry stout,  I took two bottles to the brew store
for the owner to taste.  While tasting a porter he made, we decide to open up
the stout, even though it was unchilled.  Boy, was it great, no sourness
at all.  The owner (an expert brewer) said it was probably because the chilled
beer numbed the sweetness taste buds making the chilled stout sourer.  I keep
my beer in a fridge at 50 F, guess I'll let the stout sit for an 1/2 or more
before drinking.  Guess some beers need to be drunk at room temp.  Any
thoughts on this.

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Chris Strickland               |   Allin1: stricklandc                      |
| Systems Analyst/Statistician   |   Email : stricklandc at cocoa12.ksc.nasa.gov |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 15:20:25 +0100
From: steve_t at fleurie.inria.fr (Steven Tollefsrud)
Subject: patron saint of brewers...


RONALD DWELLE wrote...
>Is there a patron saint of brewers (or homebrewers)?

I believe that St. Arnold is the patron saint of brewers and beer.


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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 09:28:23 -0600
From: kgriffin at ltec.com (Kyle Griffin)
Subject: "Batch Latch" company info needed

Fellow brewers,

Three or four years ago I purchased some 2 and 2 1/2 gallon beer balls
with hardware to make them sealable and reusable. The system was called
the "Batch Latch", and was offered by a company called Mark C. Fritz
Corp. (or something like that). At the time I also ordered an attachment
that allowed for the use of those little CO2 cartridges, which turned out
not to be worth the plastic it was made from.

During the time since then I took a couple of years off from homebrewing,
but have recently reentered the fray. I seemed to remember this company
also offering a tap attachment that could be connected to a regular CO2
cannister. It occurred to me that a beer ball and a 2 1/2 lb. CO2 cannister
would fit in the bottom of my fridge if I removed the bottom wire shelf.

Amazingly enough I also managed to find an old instruction sheet with the
company's 800 number. So three weeks ago I called and got somebody who
seemed to know what I was talking about. He said the tap had just been
redesigned, and he took my name an address to send me information. However,
I (very stupidly) threw away the paper with their number a couple of days
later.

If anyone has this information, I would very much appreciate you forwarding
it to me (kgriffin at ltec.com). Also, if anyone has any experience using the
CO2 tap and could say whether or not it even works reasonably well, that too
would be appreciated. Thanks.

Kyle
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
|                                  | Rain can ruin your weekend       |
| Kyle Griffin                     | Or rain can spare your life      |
| kgriffin at ltec.com                | Depending on who you are         |
|                                  | And what your thirst is like.... |
|                                  |                 - Mark Heard     |
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 10:09:56 CST
From: chips at coleslaw.me.utexas.edu (Chris Pencis)
Subject: H2O Filtration Effects

Hey folks - I recently got an Instapure (tm) water filter - the kind
that screws on the tap and now I wonder just what affect this will have
on my water.  Now my water tastes a lot better - locally hard water here
in Austin.  Can anyone tell me how this filtration system will affect
the ppm data on various dissolved salts?  Can anyone here in Austin
forward me such data?

Austin Brewpub Count Update: 4
(3 of these are really new but getting better)

|Chris Pencis-chips at coleslaw.me.utexas.edu-Blue Devil Transplant|
|University of Texas at Austin-Robotics Research Group-Go DUKE!	|

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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 11:10:01 EST
From: 53105 at ibmmail.COM
Subject: NOTE 03/24/94 10:59:00

- ----------------------- Mail item text follows ---------------

  
  
  
I'm getting ready to attempt my first batch of homebrew and I had a question
about bottles.  My dad offered me a case of Grolsch bottles.  These bottles
have a built-in clamp-down rubber-gasket cap affixed to the neck.  Are these
things safe to use?  Any pointers for using these things?  Thanks.
  
Robert M. Zegarac
OV:  ZEGARARM at OVMAIL1   Net: 53105 at ibmmail.com
  
 Extra X400 information begins:
             Originator
                     Name: ROBERT ZEGARAC
             Organisation: EDS
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           Message Id: DMNSSW 940324104316499751
           Importance: Normal
              Sent by
                   Name: ROBERT ZEGARAC
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              Subject: NOTE 03/24/94 10:59:00
           Recipients
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          Free Fmt Name: X4EIBM  -IINET    *Inet, Inet

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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 8:23:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Cave <CAVE at PSC.ORG>
Subject: Icebeer: A Theory

	While, as Al points out, Icebeer has been used as a marketing ploy, I
suspect that the real reason for its development was to make beer concentrate
by a gentler process than either boiling it (which would obviously destroy it)
or by high gravity brewing (which tends to make less desireable biproducts and
flavours).  Ever wonder where that hangover comes from when you've had a couple
of beers at the ball game?

	By brewing and fermenting a conventional gravity beer and then freezing
it, you can store the concentrate for lagering purposes and reconstitute it
later at the final product stage.  This is important for a large brewery since
storage tanks cost space and money.  Labatts boasts that they use the ice
crystals for filtration, which may be the case, although I suspect they still
use the diatomaceous filterbeds for final polishing.  The freezing process will
also help precipitate proteins (colloidal stabilization).

	BTW, this does not necessarily make a better beer:  if you don't put the
lots of the good stuff in, you don't get the good stuff out.

		Jim Cave (I brew and I usually am!)

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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 11:32:14 EST
From: cjh at diaspar.HQ.ileaf.com (Chip Hitchcock)
Subject: Re: CO2 Generation

Steve Scampini <scampini at hp-and.an.hp.com> says
> For those of us who don't have a ready source of bottled CO2, is it
> possible to generate small quantities via some sort of kitchen
> chemistry.  Certainly vinegar and baking soda will make CO2 on
> demand, but probably contaminated by vinegar funes. 

The smell you get from vinegar is mostly acetic acid, which boils at ~135C;
the reason you can smell vinegar at room temperature is that you can sense
acetic acid in very small quantities. I would \expect/ that this quantity
wouldn't be perceived in a batch of beer; you could probably reduce the
amount of acetic acid by chilling the vinegar and/or putting the generator
in an ice bath---this is likely to involve less plumbing than a scrubber.
But you'd probably need to run the system a while to flush all the oxygen,
and if you just mix soda and vinegar you're likely to get an eruption; this
is what powers old-style fire extinguishers.

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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 11:50:06 -0500
From: rprice at cbmse.nrl.navy.mil
Subject:  Mini-Keg system

In HBD 1380 Andy Pastuszak writes as to where he can get the
mini-kegs.

I will offer the disclamer now and then tell you of two sources

1)  American Brewmaster
Raleigh, NC

2)  Brew Ha Ha
I think it is in Pottstown, Pennsylvania

You can also buy the cans with German Beer in them at many Lic.
stores. (At least in Maryland and Germany).  My tap is a Beer King
CO2 regulated (sort of) tap.

Caveat here !!  My over exuberant sons locked in a CO2 cartridge and
cracked the housing through the threads.  So care is needed to be sure
the neck of the squib is centered prior to screwing down the holder into
the housing.  (another $30.00 down the drain),  I don't know if that
means college seniors go ape over my homebrew and can't wait to do it
right, or if they got too bombed and the design just couldn't hold up to
abuse.

I get a shot of yeast in the first pint, then none after that.  You can dump
the prime sugar into the can, or add it to the beer before kegging. 
Anyway I love the system.  You can easily keg several small batches
and have different styles on hand, or do large batches in small kegs
keeping some in storage.  

Sterility is with BBrite a rinse and then the oven for a short blast to
vaporise the water contained within.  Don't overdo or your kegs get a
well browned look to them.  Ok for the crust on a Steak and Ale pie, but
not good for your kegs.
Boil the reusable rubber bungs prior to use.

Hoppy Kegging !!




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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 09:18:00 PST
From: "McCaw, Mike" <mccaw at wdni.com>
Subject: Press relief valves in old Coca Cola Kegs


Jeff M. Michalski, MD writes that he found old PinLock kegs with a 
 nipple-shaped
pressure relief valve.  These are Coca Cola kegs, and that is one of two 
standard
Coca Cola tops.  The other type has a metal stud and a double "C" shaped
stamping on the lid which has been ground thin.  Both of these are pure 
blowouts, not  pressure reliefs (i.e. - no way to release pressure.  They 
just let go at 120 psi)
 .
Fox Equipment in Denver (800/525-2484) can sell you a new insert for that 
valve,
but it would still not provide you with a way to release pressure gently. 
(standard disclaimer)

Fox (or probably your local homebrew store) can sell you a new lid with the 
standard
pressure release valve (which will stand up to boiling).  This is the better 
choice,
even though it costs about $16.

Mike

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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 11:19 CST
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: easy masher

 
 >From: DAMON_NOEL/HP0800_01 at mailhub.cs.itc.hp.com
 
 >Jack has pointed out the ease with which heat can be added to the
 mash using his system. As a subscriber to the protein rest system
 I find it necessary to add bunches of calories to the mash and I
 have only been able to do this with a lot of stirring to prevent
 hot spots and scorching.  I am puzzled at how this can be done without
 damage to the screen tube which I visualize projecting across the
 bottom of the mash tun...what's wrong with this picture?
 
 As I mentioned, stirring is the necessary evil of kettle mashing, no matter 
 how it is later lautered.  The convenience of the em lies in not having to 
 transfer the mash to a separate lauter tun after mashing.  This evolves from 
 the fact that one can stir the mash with the em installed.  The strainer is a 
 3/8" dimeter tube only six inches long which does not present any particular 
 problem that is not dealt with in routine stirring.
 
 As far as damage to the screen, it almost as stiff as the copper tube itself 
 and I have yet to hear from a single customer (out of over 1000 sold)  with a 
 damaged screen.  Just for the record, a few early ones were shipped with 
 brass screens which proved to be to soft and have been replaced with the SS 
 screen.
 
 >From: lkbonham at beerlaw.win.net (Louis K. Bonham)
 
 >Jack Schmidling writes:
 
 >>Now we get to the real question, what is the advantage of the CM?  It seems 
 a
 > bit like RIMS, once you get beyond the fun of building, using and talking
 > about it, it offers no advantage over simpler methods.
 
 >As to his less-than-subtle swipe as RIMS units, I disagree.
 
 >As Jack is fond of relying on Dr. Fix's expert opinions
 when they favor *his* products, perhaps he should consider
 Dr. Fix's rave review of the BrewMagic RIMS.  This unit offers
 substantial advantages over conventional methods, including
 pinpoint temperature control, increased extract yield, and
 less labor.
 
 I stand corrected if advantages have been published.  I guess I missed them 
 but I stand by my opinion that its major value is the fun factor.
 
 >While the BrewMagic unit is, admittedly, a pricey item, the
 fact remains that RIMS units can and do work.
 
 Don't believe I suggested that they do not work.  However, not having 
 George's review at hand, I would want to know "increased extract yield" over 
 what?
 
 The last batch I made with an EASYMASHER and a fixed MM produced 10 gallons 
 of wort at 1.050 from 14 lbs of Belgian pils malt.  You'al can do the yield 
 calculations, I am too humble to lay out the number.  I normally use my 
 motorized adjustable mill set very fine but I just wanted to re-assure myself 
 that the statements I make about the fixed mill producing the same yield is 
 valid even in batches larger than the typical hombebrewer's 5.  I normally 
 get a yield over 30 but this was a very plesant surprise.
 
 Neither will I argue about the pinpoint temp control but I will ask, just 
 what good is it and how does one use that to justify the cost?   Answer again 
 is probalby ... fun.
 
 Less labor for RIMS is a given but I get a lot of flak from people when I 
 brag about the throughput of the MM.  I also suspect that one could save more 
 labor per buck spent by motorizing a MM than by buying/building a RIMS.
 
 Finally, I am not criticizing RIMS, just trying to look at it realistically.
 
 >From: ulick at augustine.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford)
 
 >So to test the prophesy it was decided to test the great EM device - for a 
 Weizen.
 
 My only experience with wheat has been to make sure the MM can mill it 
 properly.  Made no claims for the EM with wheat....
 
 > The test was performed in gott cooler..
 
 Never suggested putting an EM in a plastic coller...
 
 > and the runoff cleared quickly and flowed without problem, having to be 
 restrained to limit the rate.
 
 Phew!!!!!!
 
 > When I purchased the grinder the EM was included as part of a deal and had 
 remained idle for months after failing miserably as a hop filter.
 
 You need to work on this one.  I had a problem the first time I used home 
 grown hops but it was easy to clear by .... ugh... blowing gently into the 
 outflow tube.  It has never happened since and I use pellets, plugs and fresh 
 hops in every batch.
 
 >It should be noted that I have never had a problem sparging a weizen since I 
 started decocting them, and the next EM test will be a stout with 25% 
 unmalted barley infusion mashed.
 
 I will be waiting with bated (did I spell it right that time?) breath.
 
 js
 

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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 11:39:34 -0400 (EST)
From: BUKOFSKY <sjb8052 at minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Subject: Liquid Yeast question


Fellow Brewers,

  A quick question for those with more experience.  In the days when I
used dry yeast, fermentation would complete in a week or less.  Now that I
have switched to liquid yeast, I find that fermentation takes two weeks to
complete.  Is this unusual?  I always use a 32 ounce starter, pitched at
my best estimation of "high kraeusen" (12-24 hours in the starter, and
showing a large head of foam).  Fermentation always starts quickly, within
6 hours, but ferments a lot longer than dry yeast.  I've seen this effect
with Wyeast British, Belgian white, and a few others.

Thanks,
Scott

No cute comment.



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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 11:26:19 CST
From: "Roger Deschner " <U52983%UICVM at UIC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Brewpub list in Chicago

I was replying personally to <DARRIN_STOLBA at SMTP-GW.CENSUS.COM> but my
mail hit a pothole in the Information Superhighway (X-Report-Type:
Nondelivery; boundary="> Error description:") and bounced back to me. I
figure this is of general enough interest that it is not a total waste of
bandwidth:


Pickin's are kinda slim in Chicago right now. Two brewpubs
(Sieben/Berghoff, Tap & Growler) closed in the last year or so, but one
of them is threatening to reopen under new ownership.

GOOSE ISLAND is the best. One of the best anywhere, in fact. Always a
good lineup of specialty beers. Good food too. In the city on the near
north side at 1800 N Clyborn.

TAYLOR STREET, Naperville. Brand new. Might not even be producing beer
yet, but the restaurant is open and they have some micros on tap.

MELROSE, overlooking I-90 in Barrington. Primarily a restaurant. Good
brewers trying hard, despite limitations of extract system. Some of their
beers are brewed for them by Capitol of Madison Wisconsin, under
contract.

WEINKELLER (2 locations - Berwyn and Westmont) Westmont seems to turn out
better beer. Berwyn has a cramped small brewery that limits the quality
of their own beers, but has good food, a list of 500 bottled beers, and
often some good micros on tap.

BREWMASTER'S PUB, Kenosha Wisconsin. Just a stone's throw across the
state line up in cheese-land, not far off I-94. Excellent food, and new
brewers have really improved the beer. In a picturesque, rambling former
barn.

BEST BEER BARS:

O'CALLAHAN'S, Hubbard  at  Dearborn, Downtown Chicago. Crowded on weekdays
after work; quiet and relaxing on weekends. 8 taps including Pilsner
Urquel. Simple bar food.

BLUE CRAB LOUNGE/SHAW'S CRAB HOUSE, Hubbard  at  Wabash, Downtown Chicago. A
half dozen oysters go so well with a pint of a good hoppy microbrewery
beer. Very very good, but expensive, seafood on the restaurant menu.

QUENCHERS, Fullerton  at  Western, Chicago. (just west of I-94 at Fullerton
exit) About 15 taps. A classic Chicago noisy corner tavern that
discovered good beer, but remains a noisy, friendly, corner tavern. No
food.

LION'S HEAD INN, 13101 South Olde Western Ave, Blue Island. Worth the
trip to this out-of-the-way southern suburb. 13 taps all with top-notch
micros from all coasts. Good Italian food; speakeasy atmosphere. Closed
Sunday evening.

Have a nice visit in Chicago!

Roger Deschner    University of Illinois at Chicago   R.Deschner at uic.edu
=============== "Civilization was CAUSED by beer." =====================

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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 14:07:00 -0500 (EST)
From: GARY SINK 206-553-4687 <SINK.GARY at epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: Brew-on-Premise


          I'm conducting an unofficial, unscientific, just out of 
          curiousity, kind of poll on the Brew-On-Premise (BOP) concept.  
          They're very popular in B.C. and Ontario (where commercial beer 
          prices are outlandish), but only two are operating in the U.S. so 
          far (Hermosa Beach, CA and Boulder, CO).
          
          For those that don't know, BOPs are stores where you can walk in 
          and brew up 5-15 gallon batches of whatever you like using 
          "professional-quality" equipment, come back a week or two later 
          and bottle (CO2 is injected), and take the beer home.  No clean-
          up required. Cost is usually about $80 for 12-15 gal batch.
          
          If one opened up in your neck of the woods, would you go?
          
          Why/why not?  
          
          My main dilemma would be cleaning/sanitation hassle (none) versus 
          convenince and capital investment of current setup.
          
          Disclaimer: I have no financial investment in any BOP.
          
          Send me private responses if you like (both pros and cons), and 
          I'll post the results.
          
          Brew On,
          GSINK.epa.epamail.gov
          



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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 15:38:23 EST
From: U-E68316-Scott Wisler <wisler_scott at ae.ge.com>
Subject: Grains at mashout

Thanks to Bob Jones for commenting on mashing specialty grains.  I've
had a few questions waiting patiently for the next time this topic
came up.

Does the practice of adding specialty grains at mashout to improve malty
aroma work for all grains/styles?   If this is the case then one must 
decide, based on style, when to add specialty grains.  I noticed that in 
practice, you only add specialty grains at mashout for dark beers (different 
reasons for different styles) e.g. a Munich might need the more malty aroma 
while it might not be as appropriate for a Ordinary Bitter.

The next question was: Is it the mashout that does it, or just a shorter
mash time (e.g. no mashout).  Bob, you said it don't work.  Why don't it 
work?  

My third question was about color and whether the color potential of the
grain was affected.  Bob, you guessed 20% more grain (and therefore color 
potential) is necessary.  Is this due to steeping time? In other words, a 
finer crush might help?  How much of the extract potential of the grain
is available from mashout-only.  Will boosting specialty grains by 20%
to meet color requirements affect the extract balance?

Finally, a 10 minute rest after the mash out was mentioned.  I have
never purposefully done this, for no other reason than I didn't know
about it when I started mashing, and I haven't had problems that I
couldn't trace elsewhere.  Is the purpose of the post-mash rest just
time, or are you letting the mash settle onto/over the straining device?
It usually only takes a few minutes to transfer the mash to the lauter tun 
and get everything in place to lauter.  One quick stir to set the bed, and 
away I go.

***

For me, one of the most interesting things about brewing is not being 
rigidly confined to style guidelines.  I set out to make my first pilsner 
(czech) this winter.  I first went out and sampled various examples to
set the mood.  I got to wondering what a pilsner made towards the extreme 
of, say Celebration Ale, would be like.  So 40+ IBU and a generous
dryhopping later, I'm quite pleased.  (Help, I think I'm becoming a hophead!)

scott

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 11:14:13 PST
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: Hop Rate Comments and Equation

Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 11:50:49 -0600 (CST)
Allen Ford wrote:

>Please correct me if I am wrong, but under normal hopping regimens, iso-
>alpha acids are nowhere near saturation concentration.  It seems realistic
>to expect as much iso-aa to go into solution in 2-3 gallons as in 5-50 
>gallons given the same amount of hops and the same gravity. 

>This is where I have been having problems with Mark Garetz's comments 
>from 15 March where he states that increasing the hopping rate reduces 
>utilization in the boil.

To the first point, I believe you are right that in beer we are nowhere
near the iso-alpha acid saturation point.  OTOH, I don't think anyone
has ever claimed that the effect is due to limited solubility of
iso-alpha acids.  My interpretation of literature is that most believe
that somehow it is the isomerization reaction itself that is 
inhibited by the higher hopping rate.  No one is sure of the mechanism
but there are lots of theories.  The effect is well documented.  It
is not some theory I invented myself.

Based on an admittedly limited but reliable set of data, I have come up
with a hop rate correction factor that can be applied to Rager's formula.
It looks like:

HF = ( IBUs / 260) + 1  and is used along with the GA factor in Rager's
formula.  So anyplace in Rager you find (1+GA)  change it to: (1+GA) * HF.

This is for full volume boils.  For partial boils one needs to factor in
the increased hop rate due to the lower boil volume.  It looks like:

HF =  ( ( ( Final Volume / Boil Volume) * IBUs ) / 260 ) + 1

Note that this works only in Rager's "solve for ounces or grams" equations.
If you want to solve for IBUs we have a problem in that HF is based on IBUs
and we don't know what they are yet.  Both Glenn Tinseth and George Fix
gave me quadratic equations to solve the problem, but they are quite complex.
(Please don't construe this as their endorsement of the equation.)
Instead I propose a "trial and error" approach where you would perform
the "solve for IBUs" equation without HF, and since we know the answer will
be too high, reduce it by say 10%, calculate HF based on this number and then
perform the "solve for weight" equation and see how close you are.  You might
have to do this a few times to "zero in" on it.

A last note: please accept this in the spirit with which it is offered:
It is an approximation.  It ain't perfect.  It needs a lot more field
testing and as a brewing community we may decide that the constant (260)
needs to be another number, or we may toss the whole thing out with the
spent hops and grain.  If you don't like it, just leave it out of
of the equation.

Mark

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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 09:49:15 -0600 (CST)
From: a907932 at nast0.bdy.wi.ameritech.com
Subject: Cranberry Ale

Several people at last weekend's Milwaukee Beer Festival asked for the
recipe for my cranberry ale, so here it is!

- ------------------------------- Begin Include -------------------------------
Andy's Cranberry Ale

Make up a 1qt starter with Wyeast Belgian (1214).

In 7qt water

Steep 12 oz Cara-Pils to 180F, remove.  Boil, add 3# G.W. Kent Dutch
Unhopped Light dry, 1 3.3# box/bag Bries/Northwestern Weizen (60%/40%)
syrup, and 1# honey.  Boil 10 min.  Add 1/2 oz. 4.5% Willamette [in
retrospect, I would use 3/4oz or 1oz], boil 45 min.  Add 2t irish
moss.  Boil 15 min.  Add 1/2oz Saaz.  Boil two min.  Remove from heat.
Add 3 12oz bags cranberries, crushed, pretty much thawed.  Steep 15
minutes.  Chill.  Adjust to volume in carboy, aerate at least 8 min (I
use filtered air via a pump).  Add 2oz lactose boiled 5 min in 1.5c
water and yeast starter from above.

I didn't need a blow-off (but YMMV).

Primary for 6 days, secondary for 3 or 4 weeks.  May have very strong
chill haze, I'd just let it be.

Prime as usual w/ 3/4c priming sugar.

OG = 1.056, FG = 1.008


- -------------------------------- End Include --------------------------------


- -- 
  Andy Kailhofer              Ameritech Services, Inc.   414/678-7793
  a907932 at nast0.bdy.wi.ameritech.com                FAX: 414/678-6335
  740 N Broadway, Room 430,  Milwaukee, WI  53202  Member: League for
  uwm.edu!gus!a907932  p*stmaster at ameritech.com   Programming Freedom

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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 18:20:34 -0700 (MST)
From: MARK CASTLEMAN <mwcastle at ouray.Denver.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Swing Top Carbonation

I have been using 16oz swing top bottles for some time as my "house 
bottles."  One thing that I have noticed is that the carbonation level 
has been very erratic.  Some bottles are well carbonated, some are flat.

MNost all of the bottles have an initial "pffft" when opened so i know 
that the priming was effective (I bulk prime), but it just seem sthat 
sometimes the CO2 does not dissolve in the solution.  

I always inspect my gaskets and I have tried using 2 to see if it would 
help.  It didn't.

Has anybody else experienced this?

                             Mark W Castleman
                     Big Dog Brewing Cooperative - West 
My opinions are for this branch of the co-op only.  CU-Denver doesn't know I
have opinions, And even if it did, it wouldn't care one whit.


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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 20:42:47 PST
From: berkun at guiduk.ENET.dec.com
Subject: re: Pike Place Ale

If you like the Pike Place Ale and you like hops, then you'll love
the Pike Place East India Pale Ale (EIPA).  This is the hoppiest smelling
and tasting beer I've ever had.  Period.  I loved it.  I'm less impressed
with their Oregano Beer (intended for Italian dinners).  Their XXXX Stout
was OK, but not a real standout.  

I got to sample all these (and others) at Home Brew U, in Seattle, which
they co-sponser.  They're very friendly and I'm sure that if you called
them up they'd tell you a lot about what's in their beer. According
to the Seattle Phone book they are at 206-622-3373.

SDA - standard disclaimers apply

ken b.

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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 17:21:03 EST
From: Tim Lawson <lawson at clcunix.msj.edu>
Subject: tarnished brewpot

  Can anyone recommend a way to remove the discoloration from my
stainless steel brewpot.  I tried to remove the seemingly cemented on
wort stains from the bottom of the pot by putting it in my oven and
putting the oven through its self-cleaning cycle.  This resulted (as I
had feared) in a badly discolored brewpot (now a copper color)--but at
least the bottom is clean!!  Is this discoloration harmful to brewing
beer?  If so, how do I get rid of it?  I have already tried Comet and
Brasso to no avail.

Tim Lawson               
Behavioral Sciences Department 
College of Mount St. Joseph   
Cincinnati, Ohio 45233-1670 
lawson at clcunix.msj.edu    


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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 94 17:14:29 EST
From: Tim Lawson <lawson at clcunix.msj.edu>
Subject: mixing yeast strains

  Alan of Austin asked if the "off" flavors in his friend's brew might
have been caused by mixing two varieties of Wyeast.  I would say that,
since one of the varieties was added after being in a starter, there is
a good chance that the mixing created the off flavors.  Not, as you
suspected, because of any weird genetic mutations but simply because too
much yeast was added.  Adding too much yeast can create an undesirable
flavor called "yeast bite".

Tim Lawson               
Behavioral Sciences Department 
College of Mount St. Joseph   
Cincinnati, Ohio 45233-1670 
lawson at clcunix.msj.edu    


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Date: Fri, 25 Mar 94 02:26:00 BST
From: mike.keller at genie.geis.com
Subject: Mini kegs and cutoff kegs

 
Andy asks about minikegs...
 
First, I bought mine locally, but they are also available mailorder
from BrewHaHa. The local price was very close to the mail price, so
it was worth it to patronize local biz.
 
You don't need a tank and regulator. You prime the minikeg just like
a bottle, except cut your priming sugar in half. The tapper holds a
CO2 cartridge in the handle. When you are ready to tap, the CO2 cart
merely displaces the beer as you dispense, so you don't get air in the
beer. You do not force prime.
 
If you're gonna drink it fast, there is a party pump style tapper,
that you just pump with your hand to build pressure. This tapper was
actually more expensive than the CO2 style, although the carts at $1
each add to the cost.
 
Pretty close to Real Ale, and it fits in your fridge.<g>
 
Re: cutoff kegs...
 
I'd be interested in the phone # of the folks that sell cutoff kegs,
too. Thanks in advance.
 
 mike.keller at genie.geis.com
 manager, zymurgy roundtable
 
 

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1381, 03/25/94