FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Gott cooler mash tun (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Network Feuding (wyatt)
  Re: Raspberry Extract (Christepher A. McKenney )
  Galvanic Corrosion of Cu & CRES ("Palmer.John")
  Patial Mashing and Malt Extracts (GNT_TOX_)
  Re: Coffee Brew and Keg Parts (Dion Hollenbeck)
  OOPS! Racking Cane Sanitation (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  All Saint's (RONALD DWELLE)
  Wyeast Belgian White (Brian R Seay )
  Jaded taste buds:  Zima and other fad beers (Ed Ditto)
  Re: Alcohol content (Jason Sloan)
  Titanium Brewpot (Saby Gordon)
  dry hopping (Tim Lawson)
  mashed coffee ("Dennis Lewis")
  pepper-like taste (Tim Lawson)
  Re: #2(2) Homebrew Digest #13... (iueyedoc)
  sierra nevada/priming Q/hops suggestion (jeclark)
  "Homebrew Thermostat" (Fred Salchli)
  The HBD needs asbestos lining (GNT_TOX_)
  flame on flames / wyeast american ale (Gregg Tennefoss)
  EXTRACT ! vs. Grain vs. Zima (rprice)
  Partial Mashing/Programs (Doug Lukasik)
  Agar (George Kavanagh O/o)
  coffee beer/response to JEBURNS (es76)
  Jack and Chill (John Lenz) jel3 at cornell.edu
  HomeBrew Recipe Book (Rnarvaez)
  blow off hose (Milstead Robert)
  Celis Bock (Richard Buckberg)
  Re: Kill Jack Schmidling? Nah.  Take it to r.c.b.p (Brian J Walter (Brewing Chemist))
  BW for my new Daughter's 21st bd (U-E68316-Scott Wisler)
  LAGER YEAST AT ROOM TEMP (DALLEN)
  Old 49er? (lucas)
  Extracts & executions (Jay Weissler)
  Lagering in Cornelius kegs (MCKSMI)
  federal and local brewing regs (Jonathan Peakall)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 7 Apr 94 08:54:12 PDT
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Gott cooler mash tun

I have had so many requests for information on bulkhead fittings and
Gott cooler mash tuns that I thought I would post this as being
generally useful.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
How to make a mash/lauter tun out of a GOTT cooler


What I use is a standard 10 gal Gott drink cooler.  As opposed to
other brands, the Gott is specifically made for hot and cold beverages
and therefore stands up well to mashing temps.

The procedures are very simple.  

1)  Remove the valve assembly
2)  Buy a Phil's Phalse Bottom (the 10 gal size for about $25)
3)  Add a bulkhead fitting to the cooler in place of the valve
4)  Connect the false bottom to the bulkhead fitting

You can figure out how to remove the valve and buy the false bottom
yourself.  If not, don't try this at home.  Hire a professional.  B-}

BULKHEAD FITTING
================

A bulkhead fitting is a way of getting an attachment for plumbing on
two sides of a plate (bulkhead).  The simplest bulkhead fitting is
made with a close nipple, two rubber washers, two stainless steel
washers and two pipe thread nuts.  Place the nipple through a hole in
the plate.  Slip over a rubber washer, a SS washer and then run on the
nut.  From the other side, do the same.  Tighten the two nuts against
each other to form a seal.  If the bulkhead is curved like in a round
cooler, you may need very soft rubber gaskets, but if it is flat, the
rubber can be harder.  O-rings sometimes work.  If you cannot get pipe
nuts, you can make them by buying reducer fittings.  For a 1/2" pipe
nut, buy a 3/4" to 1/2" reducer.  Hold the 3/4" threaded portion in a
vise and use a hacksaw to cut off the hex nut portion.  These are
available for sale from McMaster-Carr in brass or bronze, but I have
only seen them in retail stores in pot metal which one would *not*
want to use in brewing.  For use with a false bottom, *USE* the
reducer, not the pipe nut and *DO NOT* cut off the threaded portion.
This will be used as an adapter for the hose from the false bottom.
A 1/2" ballvalve on the outside of the bulkhead fitting can be used in
place of the pipe nut, and you probably want a valve anyway.


PHALSE BOTTOM MODS
==================

A Phil's Phalse Bottom is a circle of  1/8" plastic, slightly domed and
with gazillions of small holes in it.  In the center is one 1/4" NPT
threaded hole into which a plastic elbow has been screwed.  The other
end of the elbow is about a 1/4" hose barb.  If you are using this for
a RIMS system, I strongly suggest that you replace the elbow with a
larger one, but for just a manual lauter tun, it will do fine as is.

For a RIMS system drill out the hole in the false bottom and thread
with 1/2" NPT and buy a 1/2" NPT to 1/2" hose barb nylon elbow.  If
non-RIMS, buy a 1/4" nylon hose barb to 1/2" Male NPT straight
fitting, for RIMS, buy 1/2" NPT to 1/2" hose barb.  Take this straight
adapter and go to a grindstone or belt/disk sander and grind off the
threads from the outside of the nylon adapter doing so in a manner to
give you a truncated cone shape like a rubber stopper.  This is so
that it will fit snugly into the reducing bushing which is part of the
bulkhead fitting.

With either the 1/4" or the 1/2" version, you now have a false bottom
sitting on the bottom with an elbow sticking up out of it, and a
bulkhead fitting with a nylon adpater sticking out of it, both of
which have hose barb ends.  Now to connect them.  Measure the distance
between the shoulders of the two hose barbs and cut a piece of clear
vinyl, internally braided reinforced hose about 1/8" longer than that
distance.  Remove the false bottom and the nylon adapter in the
bulkhead fitting and insert them into the ends of the pieces of hose.
You then angle the false bottom down into the bottom of the cooler so
that the nylon adapter begins to enter the bulkhead fitting while the
false bottom is still at an angle and not quite on the bottom of the
cooler.  By the time the false bottom gets to the bottom of the
cooler, it should have firmly wedged the conically shaped adapter into
the bulkhead fitting.  The grain bed sitting on top of this will
guarantee it does not move.


SUGGESTIONS FOR RIMS IMPLEMENTATIONS
====================================

As previously mentioned, use 1/2" hose.  The reduction of input to
your pump will be too restrictive with only 1/4" hose and most
magnetically driven pumps can be throttled on the output side, but do
not like to be throttled on the input side.

It is possible with heat and suction to collapse regular braided
reinforced hose, so I used Teflon hose with Stainless Steel overbraid.
This was probably overkill, but it will never collapse on you.  You
could probably get by with just Teflon.  I used just the clear hose
for a while and it worked, but with some collapsing causing partial
blockage of the input to the pump.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer     Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

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Date: Thu, 07 Apr 94 09:49:05 pst
From: wyatt at Latitude.COM
Subject: Network Feuding

        I don't know about everyone else but I think the "spitting 
     contests" that have been going on are getting a little old.  Instead 
     of being a source of better brewing practices and other brewing 
     information, much of the bandwidth is being used to vent animosity 
     toward others who may have different philosophies about brewing.  The 
     All Grain VS Extract controversy is all well and good but lets not get 
     all defensive about it.  We all have a common goal - To brew better 
     brew - so lets get on with it and forget about all this personal 
     vendetta stuff.  After all, even All Grain brewing isn't the whole 
     process.  Malting and even the process of growing grain and hops etc. 
     are all part of the picture.  I tune into HD to get and share helpful 
     information - not to listen to a bunch of network brawls.  The space 
     for HD is limited so lets not waste it. If you don't agree with 
     someone just mention it and go on, after all if someone is stuck in 
     their opinion nobody is going to change it anyway.

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Date: Thu Apr  7 13:39:37 1994
From: <cam1 at nrc.gov> (Christepher A. McKenney )
Subject: Re: Raspberry Extract

Andy,

How exactly did you use your raspberry extract?  I'm interested
in making a raspberry wheat beer and want to use an extract if
possible instead of the fruit.  What exactly was the raspberry
extract - was it the clear extract for winemaking?  When do you
add it to the brewing process?  I tried a chocolate-raspberry
porter in January and while the chocolate came through
wonderfully, you can't detect the raspberry.  I had added the
raspberry near the end of boil so I think it boiled off.

Chris


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Date: 7 Apr 1994 11:08:22 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Galvanic Corrosion of Cu & CRES

Good Question, Young Jim.        (Treasure Island- Long John Silver actually
                                   got his name from being a metallurgist)

Copper and Stainless do indeed form a galvanic couple, though the stainless may
or may not corrode depending on which is the more passive (cathodic) at the
time. Chemically passivated stainless steel (Nitric acid dipped per QQ-A-35) is
more passive than copper, especially clean copper. An electrolyte is always
necessary for galvanic corrosion. The electrolyte can be either acidic or
alkaline, with the corrosion rate being increased by the strength of the
electrolyte. (strength can be defined as the difference in pH from 7, although
there is more to it than that.)

For Brewing, the acidic wort would result in the copper being anodic to the
stainless and corroding. With Jim's proposed setup, a piece of copper inside a
stainless vessel surrounded by hot acid might corrode brilliantly. The comment
from the mfg company about leaching is true, but the result would be more of
wholesale dissolution of the copper alloy than leaching. (Stop the Presses,
Just had an Idea!)

Okay, I just spoke with Jack Schmidling, proprietor of the EasyMasher(tm). The
EM incorporates a stainless steel screen clamped around a copper tube attached
to brass attached to a stainless steel pot. He dissassembled the components
while we were on the phone and in response to my questions, discerned that
there was no sign of pitting, or surface feature change in any of the parts,
which have been in use for the past two years. The only sign of galvanic
activity was that the stainless steel screen, where it contacted about 3/4 inch
of the copper tube, was stained a copper color. This tells me that Copper ions
are coming off the tube and depositing on the stainless steel (which I
expected, typical of anodic/cathodic metal plating processes) but that the
overall rate of corrosion is very low. If corrosion rate where high, I would
expect to see a change in the tubing wall thickness and pitting at the points
of contact. This was not the case.

Summary: From this data, one can hypothesise that the boiling wort conditions
of homebrewing do not result in significant corrosion of copper/stainless
couples, in spite of the ASM Metals Handbook, Ninth Ed. Volume 13 - Corrosion,
recommending against having copper in galvanic contact with large amount of
stainless. (They actually have a chapter devoted to the Brewing Industry. :))

So, Young Jim, give it a whirl.  And good luck trying to bend 1/2 inch
stainless steel tubing. We use heavy machines to do that.
John Palmer Metallurgist for McDonnell Douglas Aerospace- Space Station Div.
palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com

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Date:     Thu, 7 Apr 94 14:17 EST
From: <GNT_TOX_%ALLOY.BITNET at PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:  Patial Mashing and Malt Extracts

One question and one request:

1- Is it possible to do a decoction partial mash?  Anyone think it
would benefit the brew in the end the way people now claim decoction
mashes benefit all grain brewing

2- I'd love to compile a text file with your reviews of different
brands of malt extracts and your recommended beer styles for each one.
 If anyone else likes this idea, please send me mail, and I'll begin
compiling a list.

Andy Pastuszak
Philadelphia, PA

INTERNET: GNT_TOX_%ALLOY.BITNET at PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU
BITNET:   GNT_TOX_ at ALLOY.BITNET


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Date: Thu, 7 Apr 94 10:07:06 PDT
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: Coffee Brew and Keg Parts

>>>>> "DAve" == JEBURNS  <JEBURNS at ucs.indiana.edu> writes:

DAve> Also, I would like an address for inexpensive keg parts and supplies.
DAve> I had the address of a place in Texas, but they have gone out of business.
DAve> I have two Cornelius kegs that I would like to start using....

DAve> Dave in Bloomington
DAve> jeburns at ucs.indiana.edu

Keg Parts:

BrauKunst 1-800-972-2728

Foxx Equipment Co. (800) 821-2254


- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer     Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California


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Date: 7 Apr 94 18:28:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: OOPS! Racking Cane Sanitation

I posted the following a while ago and Don pointed out a problem with
my procedure (as I described it):
>>The two questions ARE probably related.  I sanitize my racking tube by soaking
>>it in a carboy full of either Bleach+water or One-step+water.  Think about it.
>>When you put the racking tube in the carboy, you are actually wetting the
>>entire length that has potential for contacting the beer or the neck of the
>>carboy.  The sour/yeasty smell and cloudy appearance is probably due to a wild
>>yeast and possibly also a bacterial infection.  Once the tube gets scratched
>>up, just replace it.  Is saving $2.00 on a racking cane worth blowing $20 on
>>ingredients?

Oops!  Actually, what I meant was that I don't try to sanitize the OUTSIDE
of the cane above the level of a full carboy.  I siphon some of the sanitizer
through the hose, shut off the hoseclamp, top up the carboy with sanitizer
and let the whole siphon setup sit with the sanitizer sitting in it for 15
minutes.  Indeed, if I did not actually siphon the sanitizer through the
tubing/hose, the rest of it could be teaming with nasties.

Sorry about any confusion.

Al.

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Date: Thu, 07 Apr 94 14:38:38 EST
From: dweller at GVSU.EDU (RONALD DWELLE)
Subject: All Saint's

     I got boo-coo responses to my earlier inquiry about the patron 
     saint of home (or other) brewers.
     
     Results:
     St. Gambrinus -- 9 people said he was the one
     St. Anne -- 5 people said
     St. Andrew -- 4 people said
     St. Augustine (maybe ...of Hippo?) -- 3 people said
     St. Stephen -- 2 people said
     
     And I got nine other one-person-voting-for saints (not counting 
     St. Pauli, since I didn't know if that was serious)
     
     Cheers,
     Ron Dwelle (dweller at gvsu.edu)
        While beer brings gladness, don't forget
        That water only makes you wet.
                        (--H.L.Wilson)

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Date: Thu, 7 Apr 94 14:13:59 -0500
From: Brian R Seay </G=Brian/I=R/S=Seay/O=MAC/PRMD=ALCANET/ADMD=TELEMAIL/C=US/ at alcatel.aud.alcatel.com>
Subject: Wyeast Belgian White


                       Subject:                               Time:12:35 PM
  OFFICE MEMO          Wyeast Belgian White                   Date:4/7/94
Has anyone used the new Wyeast Belgian White?  I'm attempting to make
a Celis White clone; is this the optimum yeast to use?  Is it doped with
bacteria?  Private e-mail please, any tips would be appreciated.  I'll post
the results when the beer is finished.

TIA,
Brian
brian_r_seay at aud.alcatel.com


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Date: Thu, 7 Apr 1994 07:15:44 -0400
From: aa3396 at freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu (Ed Ditto)
Subject: Jaded taste buds:  Zima and other fad beers



A quick word about Zima...

Every so often national commercial brewers have to confront
jaded taste buds, and products like Zima, Ice, Dry, Genuine
Draft, and other such beermutations are the inevitible result.
Why taste buds get jaded in the first place is the real issue,
isn't it?  How many bottles of Miller can one drink before
it's time to move on?

Well, about one.  But the point is that anybody who wants  
new experiences can, in the time it would take them to drive
to the store ten times for ten six-packs, brew up something
really good in their own kitchen for half the price.

Zima's not too bad...my girlfriend named her cat after it.

- --
Ed Ditto
TVA/Chattanooga
aa3396 at freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu

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Date: Wed, 6 Apr 1994 22:47:30 -0400
From: aa3625 at freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu (Jason Sloan)
Subject: Re: Alcohol content



Hi. I found this list in Men's Fitness Magazine (July 1991).  I
don't know how reliable the figures are but here we go:

Rolling Rock        4.3%
Bud Dry             4.8
Michelob Dry        4.8
Budweiser           4.8
   Actually, all of the beers in the "regular" category are twixt
4.3 and 5.9 with the exception of Elephant Malt Liquor which is 
7.1.
   The "light category runs from 3.8 to 4.3 with the exception of 
Pabst Extra Light at 2.5% alcohol.
   The nonalcoholic beers ranged from 0.04 to 0.05, pretty low.

There are probably about 50 brews on this list, some of which
are "malt liquors".  Alcohol content was measured by volume.

As a side note, calories ranged from 49 in the non-alcohol group
to 212 in the regular (Elephant Malt Liquor again).

I'm posting this only because I thought it was interesting, not
because it should be used as a definitive guide.

Mail me if you have any questions about the figures.

Jason

- --
Jason Sloan
sloan01?jason at cc01.mssc.edu or aa3625 at freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu
- ---Yo ho ho and a bucket of homebrew...

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Date: 07 Apr 1994 15:57:43 -0400
From: em28987 at pwc.utc.com (Saby Gordon)
Subject: Titanium Brewpot

A friend recently had a brewpot fabricated for me.  It was supposed to
be stainless steel, but when he arrived at my doorstep with the 
brewpot, he said "All I could find was titanium".  The titanium is 
ASTMB 265 G2.  It's a great pot, 12 gallon capacity, nice handles, etc
 etc, but I am not  sure if it's safe.  Does titanium react with beer
wort?  Am I brewing toxic titanium beer?  I have not noticed any
unusial flavors in any of the batches I have brewed in the pot.  If the
pot is safe for brewing, are there any cleaning agents that I should 
avoid?  Any input would be appreciated.

Gordon Saby  sabygo at PWC.UTC.COM



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Date: Wed, 6 Apr 94 19:57:04 EDT
From: Tim Lawson <lawson at clcunix.msj.edu>
Subject: dry hopping

  Dana Cummings asked about dry hopping.  I usually dry hop by adding
1/2 to 1 ounce of hop pellets to the secondary prior to racking.  I've
found that it helps to mix the pellets with sterile, warm water first
to break them up.  You will find the almost all of the hops fall to the
bottom of the secondary and you can easily rack the finished beer off
them to your bottling bucket.  Do not boil the hops for any length of time
with the water because you will lose some of the aroma.

Tim Lawson               
Behavioral Sciences Department 
College of Mount St. Joseph   
Cincinnati, Ohio 45233-1670 
lawson at clcunix.msj.edu    


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Date:         Thu, 7 Apr 1994 15:43:15 CDT
From: "Dennis Lewis" <DLEWIS%jscdo6 at jesnic.jsc.nasa.gov>
Subject:      mashed coffee

Dave in Bloomington writes:

"I have been considering adding ground coffee beans to the grains
during the sparging process, maybe some Jamaican Blue Mountain or
other good bean.  If anyone has a recipe that uses coffee and has
turned out well send me a post, or if you have tried this and want
to warn me...."

I made a coffee stout by steeping coffee grounds in the already 
fermented beer. I added a Tbs for every 8 oz. which is way too much 
(tasted great after a year or so, though). I wouldn't add grounds to 
the mash--you'll boil out all the aromatics. Add them at the end of 
the boil or make a pot of very strong coffee and add it at bottling 
time. To steep, I'd use about 4 Tbs per gallon. That would make for 
weak coffee, but it will add enough flavor. I wouldn't add them to 
the fermenter again though. The grounds sort of settle out, but not 
really. That makes for very difficult racking. 

Don't waste good Blue Mtn on this though--use a strong dark roast 
like French Roast. Buy the beans whole and grind them very coarse. 
The fine particles make for disgusting floaties, even worse than hop 
leaves or yeast chunks. One thing you should be aware of: coffee 
contains a lot of oils. You can forget about any head retention. And 
the oils *could* make the beer go stale quicker (rancid, yuck), but 
that may be helped by making a beer with a lot of dark grains 
(chocolate, black, roasted, etc).

My best advice is to make a batch of tried and true porter, then 
rack off a gallon and add a cup of very strong coffee and bottle it 
separately. 

Dennis Lewis    <dlewis%jscdo6 at jesnic.jsc.nasa.gov>
Bay Area Mashtronauts--Homebrew, The Final Frontier

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Date: Thu, 7 Apr 94 18:12:48 EDT
From: Tim Lawson <lawson at clcunix.msj.edu>
Subject: pepper-like taste

  I recently brewed a bock beer (actually brewed as an ale) and it has 
developed a strange flavor the cause of which I cannot determine.  I 
describe it, for lack of a better description, as a black pepper-like taste.
I suspect that it came from the Hanbury hop plugs I used (Hallertau variety).
I used a total of 1 oz of finishing hop plugs.  I have made 25 batches and
have never tasted anything like this.  Anyone have any ideas on the cause?
BTW, I used Northwestern malt extract, Bierkeller extract, crystal malt,
chocolate malt, and Wyeast #1056 in addition to the 3 ounces of Hanbury 
hops (2 for bittering).  This was the first time I used Hanbury hops--thus
the suspicion.

Tim Lawson               
Behavioral Sciences Department 
College of Mount St. Joseph   
Cincinnati, Ohio 45233-1670 
lawson at clcunix.msj.edu    


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Date: Thu, 07 Apr 94 18:47:48 EDT
From: iueyedoc at aol.com
Subject: Re: #2(2) Homebrew Digest #13...

Please remove me from your mailing list.  Thank you
John Warren
IUEYEDOC at AOL.Com

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Date: Thu, 7 Apr 1994 16:00:48 -0700
From: jeclark at ucdavis.edu
Subject: sierra nevada/priming Q/hops suggestion

hi everybody,
unfortunately i have not been able to read the hbd for the last few months 
(i wasn't even able to keep up with my reading assignments last quarter),
so i am just going to stick my nose in long enough to say a few things.
first: i went to sierra nevada over the weekend and i must say that that was 
the best meal and the best glass(es) of beer i have ever had.  the beer tasted
like it had _just_ been brewed (probably because it had) and thier food was
simple but excellent.  if you are withing three hours of chico, this is a must-
do (oh, and get the chicken sandwich-it's incredible)
second, i have a quick question:  i brewed a pale ale with the following 
extract:
5 lbs light LME
2.5 lbs light DME
i used wyeast #1056 (london) 
i want to have a fairly lightly carbonated beer after priming, but i don't want
it to be flat. does anyone know how much dextrose to use for this?
lastly i have a suggestion.  please tell me if this is a bad idea:  i remember
back about three months ago someone was having a problem keeping the hops 
for dry-hopping at the bottom of the carboy.  they kept putting weights in the
bag but it kept floating to the surface.  here's what i did:  i stuffed the 
muslin bag filled with hops into the carboy and syphoned the wort onto them. 
i then obtained a piece of glass tubing and cut it so it just fit into the 
carboy with the top about 1/2 in. below the lip.  i pushed the hops to the 
bottom of the carboy with this and then sealed it with my rubber stopper.  the
rod is held down by the stopper and in turn hold the hops at the bottom of the
carboy.  the stopper i use is fairly tight so i haven't had any problem with 
the rod forcing it off.  i hope this helps the person who asked the question
way back when.  as far as i can tell there are no extra risks of infection (i
sterilized the rod, of course) involved.
happy brewing and drinking!

- --james
  (jeclark at ucdavis.edu)

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Date: Thu, 7 Apr 94 20:36:46 CDT
From: fjs at dlogics.com (Fred Salchli)
Subject: "Homebrew Thermostat"


I have built a number of temperature controllers using a handful
of parts from radio shack. They are not the most energy efficient
way to control a refrigerator, but they do work. I built one for
a friend who used it to very accurately control the temperature
of his salt water aquarium.


Radio Shack sells a digital thermometer which enables you sense
the temperature (via an included probe) and has a comparator which
will generate a logic level signal if a certain minimum or maximum
temperature is sensed. All that is required is an optoisolator and
a relay with sufficient capacity to handle the load. This a very
basic configuration, but will work nicely. I can dig up the part 
numbers and prices if anyone is interested. Total cost (about 2
years ago) was less than $40.






hope this helps.

Also, please subscibe to hbd.

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Date:     Fri, 8 Apr 94 08:38 EST
From: <GNT_TOX_%ALLOY.BITNET at PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:  The HBD needs asbestos lining

First off, I'd like to thank everyone for spelling my last name right.

I'd also like to say, people will like Ice Beer, People will like
Zima, and some homebrewers will like both.  Everyone has their own
opinion and their own tastes.  I've met homebrewers that only make
Pilsners, and I've met brewers that don't make any lagers and don't
plan to.  So, leave it alone.

Since I'm here and I should ask a brewing question:  What companies
make malt anyway and what are the good brands.  How do prices compare
with extract brewing?

Andy Pastuszak
Philadelphia, PA


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Date: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 09:16:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: greggt at infi.net (Gregg Tennefoss)
Subject: flame on flames / wyeast american ale




Pardon me one moment as I pull on my fireproof suit, douse my computer
with H2O and drink a gallon of malox. There, OK, Here goes.

I think the "discussion" part of comparing all-grain to extract is good.
It shows differences of the two and is educational. I think discussions
of the differences of EM, RIMS, false bottoms, etc... is good. All this
teaches most of us things and or enlightens us on techniques.
What is not good is all the personal attacks - JS shooting at Tumbleweed,
The masses shooting at JS, Coyote impailing PV because of a taste preference
or using mini-kegs. Lets grow up folks. Why not shoot your neighbor because
he likes wine not beer. Maybe we should limit the digest for constructive
discussions and leave the personal insults and flames to private E-Mail.
If you "listen" to some of the new post they have the tone of being scared
to ask a question. Are we running away contributers and people wanting help
with all the insults. I am not talking about dissagreeing here but am refering
to the personal attacks. Oh well, just an opinion. Let the inferno begin.


BREWING QUESTION:

I have never had any problems starting a ferment except when using wyeast
american ale. both time I have used it, it has taken a couple days to get
a good start. I aways make a starter and wait until it is working good prior
to pitching. It just seems this one strain does not like me. Has anyone else
had similar problems ? Interestingly enough, the two beers produced with this
slow start have come out quite well with no noticable contamination from the
slow start. TIA & Cheers

gregg tennefoss - greggt at infi.net
 


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Date: Fri, 08 Apr 1994 09:30:18 -0500
From: rprice at cbmse.nrl.navy.mil
Subject:  EXTRACT ! vs. Grain vs. Zima

In defense of Extracts, I started Hbrewing in the early 70's using
Pioneer Blue Ribbon Hopped Malt from the baking section of our local
Acme market, remember you couldn't find a local hb shop back then.. 
The recepie available by writing to these folks included putting the
extract into cold water and using 5# of cane sugar.  It was awfull
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Newer extracts have improved,  I haven't used the stuff in the cans but
have used the Pioneer Light and Amber extracts as well as the American
Classic series.  If you are in a hurry, brewing for a tank it down party or
making lawnmower beer they really don't do a bad job.  I have had awfull
extract beers, and beers that I feel rival my all-grain beers.

For all grain brewing,  sure it is "better", you can still brew swill if you
are not carefull.  But lets face it, most of us do it for the personal
self-satisfaction.  All grain takes time,  effort, money for equipment and a
bit of knowledge that extract brewing doesn't.  

True beer snobs would home grow the malt by replacing their lawns
with barley,  doing their own malting, growing their own hops etc., most
of us don't have the time although you can buy barley in our area for
about $7.50 per 100#, and the cost of malting is almost nothing, it is
easier to buy the malt for a bunch more money.  Carry that further and let
someone do the mash and you have extract.  Perhaps it all comes down
to time.

As for Irish Moss,  try using sodium alginate Kelco, Aero Drive, San
Diego, Ca, or Terminal Drive, Clarke, N.J., use Kelco HV or LV.  Great
fining agent,  and aids in head retention.  Or call GAF and get a sample of
K-90 Poly Vinyl Pyrollodone (PVP).  Is Irish polysaccharide really better
than domestic, or Scottish alginates after all they are both
polysaccharides  ???

Zema-- 

I like Zima,  I've never tasted it, but a  sweet young blonde in Lycra gave
me a nice key chain/can/bottle openerwith Zima on it.  Across the top
front of the abbreviated outfit was Zima !!!   What marketing !!  When my
heart rate dropped some I  wandered home and had a homebrew, only
stopping to reflect on the fact that I'd buy a considerable amount of
additional supplies if at my HB shop the proprietor employed such tactics.

Can anyone provide a reference (professional text), on malting barley ??
Wnen I have tried it in the past I had very mixed results.  Most of the
6-row that I purchased direct from the farmers had husks that could
bring a Corona to its knees.



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Date: Fri, 08 Apr 1994 10:11:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Doug Lukasik <LUKASIK_D at sunybroome.edu>
Subject: Partial Mashing/Programs

Extract vs. All Grain.....woah......where do us PARTIAL MASHERS fit in??  Odd
that I never hear from this content group.  Is it that we are only somewhat
lazy, only brew really good beer some of the time, or that we are partially in
both camps so no one flames us???  Enough wasted band width.  Everyone should
brew to the level that they choose without others having a problem with that.
Every person learns at a different pace and takes hobbies, jobs, lives to 
levels that are satisfying to them.  Who cares if that is different than 
someone else's level....for that matter no one is forcing anyone else to drink
their beer (although if your interested I would love to be forced ;^)

On to real brewing questions.  Since I made the switch to partial mashes from 
all extract I have been having what I would call explosive fermentations.  The
brews end up bubbling out of the airlock after about 12 hours and spewing 
krauesen all over the bathroom.  I only had this happen once with the extract
batches (9) but it has happens every time with the partial mashes (5).  At the 
same time as I changed brewing procedures I also made a batch of sterile wort 
and began making and using 1 pint yeast starters.   Any reason why the
fermentation is so radically different?  (Yeah, I know - start using a blow 
off tube.)

An HBD or so ago there was some discussion of computer programs used for 
brewing that could be obtained through the NET at no cost.  Of course, in my 
partially mashed (oops) state I deleted the HBD without obtaining the info
for my records.  Could someone out there please either repost or e-mail me 
the information on where and how to obtain these programs.  TIA.

Well having started brewing the first weekend in December 93, and having now
completed 14 batches (yeah I couldn't keep up the once a week pace when I tore
out the kitchen) I can truely say that it has been an interesting winter (next
year I quit bowling and brew more ;^) with even more interesting brews to 
consume.  Just though I'd say thanks for the help all you HBDers have given 
me and the enjoyable reading - gets even more enjoyable after a couple of
homebrews.

Doug.  <lukasik_d at sunybroome.edu>

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Date: 8  Apr 1994 10:16:58 -0500
From: George Kavanagh O/o <George.Kavanagh at omail.wang.com>
Subject: Agar

I have had little trouble finding agar in several oriental
(Cambodian & Chinese) food stores here in northeastern Mass.

Its sold in smallish ( 3" x 4" or so ) packets, and is labelled
in english as well as cambodian/chinese.

I did find that when I asked for "agar" I got a blank stare, but
when I asked for "agar-agar" the clerk was very helpful & pointed it
right out to me.

About $ 0.95 per pack. (which is good for several batches of slants).

 -gk
   

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Date: Thu, 07 Apr 94 14:36 EDT
From: Eric_SARLIN at umail.umd.edu (es76)
Subject: coffee beer/response to JEBURNS

Fellow Zymurgists and J.E. Burns,

Yes, I have tried brewing with coffee, and made a verrrrry strong stout that
had the unpleasant taste of stale coffee.  I consider the batch a complete
failure, but from failure comes knowledge.  I've since spoken to the coffee
specialist at Sutton Place Gourmet (a yuppie grocery store in the Maryland
area).  He explained that coffee beans contain oils which become more and more
tasteable as the brewed coffee gets old.  This accounts for the stale coffee
taste you get when a pot has been sitting around for a while.  To avoid this
stale coffee taste in home brew, the coffee guy told me not to put ground beans
directly into the wort. Rather, make a pot of strong coffee (about 10 cups),
and run it through clean paper filters (the kind used with drip coffee
machines) at least twice. The filters help to remove the oils and will give
you a better tasting beer in the long run.  Add the coffee at the end of the
boil, about when you add the finishing hops.  You may want to reduce the
amount of water you initially put in the pot so that there's plenty of room
for the additional liquid.

To me, stout with its roasted taste is an obvious choice for coffee brewing.
I'd be interested in other ideas.

Peace and good brewing,

Eric Sarlin  :-)



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Date: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 06:22:24 -0400
From: (John Lenz) jel3 at cornell.edu
Subject:       Jack and Chill

Greetings all,
    Jack seems to be getting a lot of attention again lately (and to 
think, I was wondering if he'd croaked or something when he wasn't 
around for a week or so earlier this year).  Whether you love him or 
hate him, let's not forget, he did come up with MALTMILL, in my 
opinion this was and is a real service to all of us who used to smash 
our grain with a Corona (can't speak to the efficacy of the 
EasyMasher, as Al didn't throw one into the deal when I bought my 
MALTMILL).
    On the temperature controller subject, Williams, in California, 
still sells their controller for something in the neighborhood of 
$50.  If I ever get my upright freezer modified, I think I'll order 
up a controller from them rather than trying to construct my own 
(some of the parts lists we've seen right here on the HBD recently 
look like they could easily run to $50 or more, and then you still 
have to put it together).
    Just thought I'd thank whoever it was that posted the 
modification on the King/Cajun K/Cooker last year (the 1/16" hole in 
the brass nut idea).  Works like a charm, used mine last weekend for 
the first time since modifying it, and what little carbon there was 
on the bottom of the pot just sort of fell off when I touched it with 
a wet rag.
Op uw gezondheid,
John

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Date: Fri, 08 Apr 1994 10:27:43 -0500
From: Rnarvaez at lan.mcl.bdm.com
Subject:  HomeBrew Recipe Book

Does anybody out there in homebrew land know of a book that has beer
recipes? I have a copy of the Cats Meow but would like to purchase a
book that has detailed ingredients and brewing instructions.
Thanks.
Ronald Narvaez of Albuquerque New Mexico

Quote for the day!
DON'T TAKE LIFE TOO SERIOUSLY,
IT ISN'T A PERMANENT THING.


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Date: Fri, 08 Apr 94 10:31:00 PDT
From: Milstead Robert <rmilsted at Zellar.Vantage.GTE.COM>
Subject: blow off hose


Mike Hansen  writes in HBD #

>As the person who brewed the raspberry stout mentions, his 3/8" blowoff
>tube became clogged with raspberry goo. 3/8" is way too small for a blowoff 

>tube. You should use a 1 1/4" blowoff tube that fits snugly inside the neck 

>of your carboy. After the brew is done spewing you can put the rubber
>carboy cap on with an airlock.

Of course, any serious brewer knows that 1 1/4" is *way* too small for a
blowoff hose.  I currently use a 4" fire hose, attached to the top of the 
carboy
with EasyCoupler(TM).  In order to be sure that the hose is sanitary, I boil 
it
in a 300 gallon cauldron in the back yard of my townhouse over a ceder fire
(Use only the new growth of ceder that comes in the spring).  The other end
of the hose is dropped into a 150 gallon aquarium, half full of sanitizing 
solution.

For plans on the EasyCoupler(TM) send SASE (Self addressed, stamped EMail)
to:
Bob Milstead
RMilsted at Zellar.Vantage.GTE.Com

(Nobody would really do this would they?)

Plans for a twelve inch model (arrgh, oh, yeah!) are on the drawing board. 
 :->

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Date: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 08:12:43 -0700
From: Richard Buckberg <buck at well.sf.ca.us>
Subject: Celis Bock


Had a sample of Celis Bock (from the Hill Country of Texas! (sic) ) last
night.  This seemed to be a much lower ETOH bock than most.  It had a
wonderful maltiness, spicy but subtle hops, and cleaner smoother flavor than
the Sierra Nevada bock I tasted along side it, or the German dopplebocks as
I remember them.

Question is, Howdeedoodat?  

Anyone experiment with a recipe to match the style (preferably all-grain)?
Anyone know Christine Celis?

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Date: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 09:16:37 -0700 (MDT)
From: walter at lamar.ColoState.EDU (Brian J Walter (Brewing Chemist))
Subject: Re: Kill Jack Schmidling? Nah.  Take it to r.c.b.p

> 
> Glenn (GANDE at SLIMS.ATTMAIL.COM) writes:
> 
> >Why does everyone jump all over Jack Schmidling? I've been reading and
>   .... <junk deleted>

> When I first started reading HBD, I wondered about this as well.  Now
> that I've been reading for a few months, I think I do understand.
> 
> The problem with Jack's posts is that they leave no room for
> disagreement.  Jack doesn't seem to understand that there is more than
> one "right" way to do things.  The tone of his posts says "I know the
>  .... <junk deleted>

That's right take it to r.c.b.p.  That is
rec.crafts.brewing.psycho-analysis.

Maybe someone can create the EasyShrink(tm) ;^>

Good Day,

Brian


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Date: Fri, 8 Apr 94 11:52:11 EDT
From: U-E68316-Scott Wisler <wisler_scott at ae.ge.com>
Subject: BW for my new Daughter's 21st bd

Alisha and I had a Daughter on Monday, April 4.  Aubrey Leighton. 
All three of us are doing great and sleeping 4 hours at a time.  Its really 
neat that a proud new papa can announce his new little girl to the world. 

Norm Pyle gave me a great suggestion:  Brew up a barlywine for her 18th
or 21st birthday, or perhaps a wedding.  (THANKS)  I'd like to solicit 
recipe ideas from all of you.  I'm not particularly concerned about staying 
within style guidelines.  This is, after all, a 1 shot deal.

I'd also like to solicit ideas on storage.  I could put it away in a
keg, which is pretty easy.  That would minimize oxidation and allow a
better handle on carbonation.  Or I could bottle it.  Champagne bottles
might be pretty good.  I wonder about O2 getting through the caps over
the years.  Those of you that have been to Belgium, how are 20 year old
beers stored there?  Corked?  Any special needs on bottle conditioned
high OG ales to get the carbonation level right 20 years from now?

I've been about a 3+ hour boil to give a nice amber color.  Should drive
off most of the DMS precursosrs, too.

TIA

scott

Scott Wisler
swisler at c0431.ae.ge.com
GE Aircraft Engines
Cincinnati, OH




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Date: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 12:32 EST
From: DALLEN at LANDO.HNS.COM
Subject: LAGER YEAST AT ROOM TEMP

CAN SOMEONE SHARE WITH ME THEIR EXPERIENCES WITH USING LAGER YEAST AT ROOM
TEMP? PAPAZIAN SAYS THAT GOOD BREW CAN BE PRODUCED IN THIS FASHION. I HAVE
JUST TASTED MY FOURTH BATCH USING LAGER YEAST AT ROOM TEMP, TWO WERE 
EXTRACT AND TWO ALL GRAIN, THEY HAVE ALL HAD A SOUR/YEASTY/EARTHY BUT
NOT SPOILED OFF FLAVOR. SHOULD I NOT BOTHER STICKING TO THE RECIPE AND 
USE ALE YEAST?

THANKS, DAVE  

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Date: Fri,  8 Apr 94 09:37:19 PDT
From: lucas at cup.portal.com
Subject: Old 49er?

Does anyone know of an English ale called Old 49er? I'm not sure if
that is the exact name. A friend said that he had a wonderful beer
a few years ago from England, "Something 49". I'd like to look 
around for a case of it for his birthday which is coming up soon.
I've looked around in local stores but I can't find anything like
it. Any info would be greatly appreciated.....

lucas at cup.portal.com

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Date: Fri, 8 Apr 94 11:37:35 -0500
From: jay_weissler at il.us.swissbank.com (Jay Weissler)
Subject: Extracts & executions

First the customary "mine's bigger than your's." I started homebrewing
in 1976.  Seems that you can't post here without first puffing out your chest.

Next,  the opportunities for creativity in homebrewing are infinite. This is
true for both the grain and extract brewer.  Your creative bend may be
in hops, gadgets, fresh fruits, water, what ever.  Anyone who claims that
you have to work in a certain media to be creative or an artist is probably
neither. If you like working in grains, cool. Extracts are cool too. 

Sometimes it's nice to have a 100% repeatable base like an extract to better
experiment in hops, yeasts or water.

Finally, someone mentioned Chicago water. It is excellent for brewing,
but it is still pretty variable. 





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Date: Fri, 08 Apr 1994 13:06:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: MCKSMI at delphi.com
Subject: Lagering in Cornelius kegs

I am about to transfer a batch of Oktoberfest beer from my secondary to a 
Cornelius keg for lagering.  Since this is my first try at this, I am wondering 
if I should force carbonate the beer before or after I lager it.  My instinct 
is after.  But, in his book on Oktoberfest styles, George Fix refers to tasting 
samples of beer during various stages of lagering.  To me, this implies it was 
carbonated before lagering. 

Thanks in advance!
McKee Smith                                       Phone:        (214) 721-1558
                                                  EMail:     Mcksmi at Delphi.com
                                                  Compuserv:        71660,2747

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Date: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 10:26:06 -0700
From: belew at netcom.com (Jonathan Peakall)
Subject: federal and local brewing regs

Firstly...Thanks to all for your help with my yeast problem.

Several people have written me concerning the legalities of brewing 
large quantities of beer. I checked with the BATF, and they say the 
rules are: For households with 1 resident, you may brew 100 gals per 
calendar year. For households with 2 or more residents, you may brew
200 gals a year. Of course no selling of the brew is permitted. I also 
called the ABC of California, and after much difficulty, found 
someone smart enough to RTFM, and they concur with the Fed regs. 
Both seemed more concerned with the sale of the brew rather than 
the quantity. It seems to me that quantity enforcement would be 
problematic anyway, as long as you had less than 200 gals on hand. 
Perhaps they could trace the sale of fermentable items to you, but I 
would hope they would have to have suspicions you were selling the 
beer before they went that far. With the Feds, though, who knows? 

Anyway, I racked the beer into carboys today, and it tasted good. If 
nothing else, I have learned to test a yeast before committing it to a 
large batch. I'm also going to use the method suggest by several 
people, making a 5 gallon batch a few days in advance, and using the 
slurry from the primary to start the big batch. 

Thanks again to all!

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1394, 04/09/94