FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  New batch of beer; New batch of questions! (AYLSWRTH)
  Guinness hopping schedule (AYLSWRTH)
  Re:peppertaste/WyeastAmerican/Pils4Beginners/YeastCropping/1000IBUs! (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  EM, titanium and AIDS (Jack Schmidling)
  HBD Reader for Windows? (BFRALEY)
  Step Culturing Yeast (WKODAMA)
  Q: fridge conversion & 3 gal corn. keg (Michael T. Lobo)
  King Kooker (BrianE)
  Plastic carboys. (PETER J VOELKER)
  atlanta info (brian.dulisse)
  All grain cost / Irish Moss (12-Apr-1994 0918 -0400)
  RE: How much cheaper is all-grain than extract? (Jim Dipalma)
  Doh!  Titanium Typo ("Palmer.John")
  NJ Brewpub (Brian Skwarek - Applications Development)
  Twistoff bottle caps (Brian=Wilson)
  Homebrew Mail Order Catalogues (Stephen Hudson)
  Bottling foamy lagers (Bill Szymczak)
  18 yr. BW (npyle)
  German Weizens w/ yeast (Brian J Walter (Brewing Chemist))
  Re: 5 gallon kegs - 3/$33 (Jeff Berton)
  Thanks/Another question (BUKOFSKY)
  re: Zima/Shandy? ("McGaughey, Nial")
  test message ("Mark Merchant")
  Bottling foamy lagers (Bill Szymczak)
  Apologies-Hot Head/ Hopstarts (COYOTE)
  Hop flavor and aroma (Glen Tinseth)
  Brewing in Utah (shhhh!) (COYOTE)
  What am I doing wrong (kegging question)? ("Mark E. Stull, no DTN  12-Apr-1994 1639")
  Native Hops/JS (Joel Birkeland)
  to fine or not to fine (Jonathan G Knight)
  extracts, all grains, and grinding (TARVINJ)
  Does RIMS over-clarify? (slkinsey)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 11 Apr 94 15:53:59 EDT
From: AYLSWRTH at MANVM2.VNET.IBM.COM
Subject: New batch of beer; New batch of questions!

Well, I brewed another pale ale this week-end, which gave me the chance
to use my new wort chiller.  Not being much of a do-it-yourselfer, I
plunked down $45 for a 25' copper immersion chiller at my local homebrew
store.  I was a little concerned about the results I'd get since I have
seen widely varying reports in the HBD, and 25' seemed a little on the
short side.  However, I could not be happier with it!  This was, no
doubt, the best homebrewing equipment investment I have made.  Data:

60F tap water brought 4 gallons of wort from 210F to 70F in 20 minutes!

I started seeing large amounts of cold break material almost as soon as
I started running the water.  Also, I lost more to sludge - almost a
complete gallon - than I ever did before due to the amount of cold
break material.  So, I ended up having to top up with almost 2 gallons
of water.  I really can't wait to see the effect of using a wort chiller
on the taste of the beer!

However, as with every batch, I have a few questions related to procedure
changes:

1) I have seen several posts in the HBD recommending rehydrating dry
   yeast in warm water, instead of wort.  Dave Miller recommends putting
   1 pint of wort into a sterile jar and rehydrating yeast in it.  I
   have always used this suggestion, but this time decided to try the
   warm water method.  However, I couldn't find the specific posts about
   this before my brewing session, so I decided to pretend I was making
   bread.  Thus, after removing my boiler from the heat but before
   starting the wort chiller, I put 1/2 tsp corn sugar in 1 cup 90F
   water and added the yeast.  Obviously, this was done in a sanitized
   pyrex measuring cup which I covered with plastic wrap.  By time I
   was ready to pitch the yeast, half an hour later, I had almost two
   cups of foam!  Anyway, I was wondering how this technique and
   experience compared with others.  And, does anyone have any comparisons
   of the two techniques, or reasons to prefer one over the other.  I tend
   to listen to anything Miller says, but do acknowledge that he can be
   quite anal at times.

2) The last time I was at my local homebrew store, I decided to pick up
   a spare airlock.  Nothing was wrong with my previous one, but I
   thought a spare seemed like a good idea (esp. since they are only $1).
   Since I've seen several people recommending them, I bought one of
   the ripple shaped locks, instead of another three-piece one.  I
   decided to try the ripple one on the most recent brew, but as I was
   about to use it, I took a close look at it and realized the cap to
   it didn't have holes in it.  The cap to my other airlock has two
   small pin-holes to let CO2 escape.  Is the ripple type supposed to
   be used without the cap on it?  Does it matter?  Just wondering . . .

Thanks in advance for answering these questions - and thanks, also,
for the many questions that have already been answered here!



Thomas Aylesworth
Dept. PX8/Space Processor Software Engineering
Loral Federal Systems, Manassas, VA
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: aylswrth at manvm2.vnet.ibm.com  |  PROFS: AYLSWRTH at MANVM2
Phone:    (703) 367-6171                |  T/L:   725-6171

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Date: Mon, 11 Apr 94 17:11:25 EDT
From: AYLSWRTH at MANVM2.VNET.IBM.COM
Subject: Guinness hopping schedule

Does anyone know the hop types and hopping schedule used in Guinness
Stout?  I have checked several sources (the Guinness FAQ on r.f.d.b;
Jackson; and Eckhardt) and have seen conflicting information.  It
seems that Guinness uses Bullions for bittering, but different sources
list different types of aromatic hops.  I've seen both Goldings and
Cascades mentioned.  This is probably due to the fact that there are
several variations of Guinness brewed around the world.

Anyway, Guinness does not appear (to me anyway) to have significant
hop flavor/aroma, but if anyone does know what sort of aromatic hops
are used and when they added to the boil, I would very much appreciate
it.

Thanks,



Thomas Aylesworth
Dept. PX8/Space Processor Software Engineering
Loral Federal Systems, Manassas, VA
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: aylswrth at manvm2.vnet.ibm.com  |  PROFS: AYLSWRTH at MANVM2
Phone:    (703) 367-6171                |  T/L:   725-6171

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Date: 11 Apr 94 19:56:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Re:peppertaste/WyeastAmerican/Pils4Beginners/YeastCropping/1000IBUs!

Tim writes:
>  I recently brewed a bock beer (actually brewed as an ale) and it has 
>developed a strange flavor the cause of which I cannot determine.  I 
>describe it, for lack of a better description, as a black pepper-like taste.

Could it be from alcohol?  In my opinion, alcohol has a peppery-like
taste.

********
>I have never had any problems starting a ferment except when using wyeast
>american ale. both time I have used it, it has taken a couple days to get
>a good start. I aways make a starter and wait until it is working good prior
>to pitching. It just seems this one strain does not like me. Has anyone else

Indeed Wyeast American Ale (#1056) seems slower than many other liquid yeasts,
but I also feel that it is more temperature sensitive than others too.  What
temperature are you fermenting at?  Anything lower than about 63F and the
Wyeast American Ale really slows down.  It also loses all of its ale
fruitiness.

*********
Tim writes:
>On a lighter note, I am collecting Pilsner recipes.  All grain, partial 
>mash, or extract versions are welcome.  I hope to be introducing a group 
>of folks to brewing in the near future.  And, I think that a pilsner 
>would be a good place to start.

I don't think it is... I feel that a Brown Ale would be the best place to
start for beginners.  A true pilsner requires a long lagering at 33F or
so and it's not fair to subject beginners to a 3 month wait to sample
their beer.  Also, light-colored beers, like pilsner are more likely to
come off too dark for style until you learn how to not scorch the wort
and how to not have hot-side-aeration.  Finally, just dealing with
a cold-temperature ferment is too much additional work.  I think that
a basic 6 pounds of hopped amber extract, boiled 1 hour in a gallon of
water, chilled in a sink full of ice, aeratied while adding to 4.25
gallons of pre-boiled cooled water, pitched with rehydrated dry yeast
(I would suggest Red Star, Nottingham or Coopers) and fermented two
weeks at 68F would be the best place to start.  From there, the brewers
can add crystal malts, use unhopped extracts and hops, experiment
with different yeasts on subsequent batches.

********
DAN writes:
>AFTER USING LIQUID YEAST, IS IT BETTER TO SAVE THE SLURRY FROM THE BOTTOM OF
>THE PRIMARY, OR WAIT AND COLLECT WHAT DROPS TO THE BOTTOM OF MY SECONDARY?

The secondary is a better source because the stuff in the bottom of the
primary will also contain hot and cold break material.

*******

Dennis writes:
>I would suggest using from 500 to 1000 IBU's for this 20 year old beer.

As much as I hate to disagree with the Midwest Homebrewer of the Year `94,
I think that 500 to 1000 IBUs is excessive.  I think that 150 to 250
would be plenty.  Isn't Thomas Hardy's 100 IBUs?

Al.

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Date: Mon, 11 Apr 94 19:51 CDT
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: EM, titanium and AIDS

 
 >From: ulick at augustine.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford)
 >Subject: Easymasher review and more
  
 >It was then added to the lauter tun - a 7 gallon Gott cooler with the easy 
 masher in instead of the false bottom.  It was just shoved in the hole and 
 came off the first time I added the mash.....
 
 Not sure if I am getting sucked into an April Fool joke here but....
 
 >  It requires the purcahse of a big pot, the construction of a lauter tun, 
 
 If you put the easymasher in the big pot instead of the Gott cooler, it would 
 not only have NOT come off, but you would not have to construct a lauter tun.  
 As I may have said a time or two, em in pot = mashtun = lautertun = boiler = 
 fermenter.
 
 >the eventual purchase of mill...
 
 See previous discussion of INTERNATIONAL MALTMILL CONSPIRACY.
 
 >HBD is still good for a laugh every now and then.  Saby Gordons titanium
 brew pot....  Can I buy it, or swap it for an old 7.5 gallon canner with an
 easymasher?
 
 If that is an EASYMASHER (tm), Saby should grab the offer.  Titanium may make 
 great airplane wings but there is a rumor floating around that it denatures 
 enzymes in addition to being the real source of AIDS.  Unfortunately, there 
 is another conspiracy between the airline industry, mega brewers and the CDC.
 
 js
 

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Date: Mon, 11 Apr 94 22:16 CDT
From: BFRALEY at aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu
Subject: HBD Reader for Windows?

I will make this quick.  I thought that someone said that they had a 
Homebrew digest reader for windows and had placed it in the Stanford 
archives.  I am unable to find it.  I would appreciate it if someone would
point out its location.  Thank You.
Brad Raley    "Beer-Nature's Perfect Food"

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Date: Mon, 11 Apr 1994 14:38:06 -0400
From: WKODAMA at aba.com
Subject:  Step Culturing Yeast

I tried something "new" with step culturing yeast, and thought
I'd lay it on HBDland.

When I'm culturing up to the 500 ml volume, I usually sanitize a
Chimay bottle, sanitize an airlock, and transfer my 500 ml of
wort from my mason jar into the Chimay, add yeast, etc.

My most recent night-before-brewing offered me up a kitchen sink
full of dishes.  NO ROOM to sanitize my Chimay bottle and works. 
Doh!!  (No interest at that hour in cleaning sink, either.)

So I scratched my head for a minute and then decided "Why not
just pitch from my 50 ml to the mason jar?"  I aerated the mason
jar wort till I got bursitis of the elbow, then in with the 50
ml.  Laid the dome lid on the jar, but no screw down thingy. 
Next morning, VOLCANIC activity just raging away in mason jar. 
Lid sitting very prettily upon mountain of spew.  That night,
brew, pitch; NEXT morning, carboy raging!  Presto.

My sole source of uncertainty was the "unsanitary" practice of
conducting what amounted to an open fermentation of yeast
starter.  After all, I was only pitching from 50 ml, not the
largest yeast population ever seen 'round these parts.  But it
just took off, and I may start using this practice from now on. 
BTW, the just-pitched-from mason jar at the end of brewing
converts very nicely with a quick rinse to the jar at the end of
the blow off tube so the carpet doesn't receive brew dung.  Saves
washing a jar, ya know.

Flame if you got 'em,
Wesman
wkodama at aba.com


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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 94 08:09:09 EDT
From: mlobo at sunwr23 (Michael T. Lobo)
Subject: Q: fridge conversion & 3 gal corn. keg 

Greetings:

	In yesterdays HBD, Jim Busch mentions 3 gal corny kegs.  Does anyone know
of a place that sells these?

Also, on a sort of related subject..

I bought a used fridge to store kegs/beer/yeast in and if I want to keep
the keg in the fridge, I need to remove all the shelves.  This seems like a 
big waste of space, since the fridge is quite large.  The kegs do fit 
lying down, so my question is this:  has anyone tried to store & draw
beer from corny kegs lying on their sides?  I figured I'd try to bend the
feeder tube & I guess I'd have to stand it on end to get the last few beers
out, but in return, I can still use the 3 shelves for storage.

Any ideas? 

thanks,

Michael

Michael T. Lobo   508 549 2487
Foxboro Co.
"I Love beer, beer loves me; when I drink too much, 
my beer speaks for me" -Monty

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Date: 12 Apr 94 07:18 CST
From: BrianE at anesthesia-po.anesth.uiowa.edu
Subject: King Kooker

I'd appreciate a re-post of the information regarding 
modification of the King Kooker to produced less
carbon on low flame settings.
eddie-brian at uiowa.edu

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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 08:50:29 -0400
From: PETER J VOELKER <pv120859 at hvcc.edu>
Subject: Plastic carboys.

I was wondering if those plastic 6 gallon "carboys" that usually come
filled with water are ok to use for beer?  I don't think it's a matter
of their structure (since they already hold 6 gallons of water), but
will the plastic affect my brew?
     Also, I was wondering of any extract brewers out there have any
particular favorite recipes they'd be willing to share with me? I'd
be willing to share any of my ideas to those who ask.
- --Peter Voelker

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Date: 12 Apr 94 09:08:14-0500
From: brian.dulisse at wpo.ftc.gov
Subject: atlanta info

i'm going to be in atlanta for a week.  unfortunately, my friends
there are beer weenies, so i don't trust their judgement as to
what constitutes a good place to drink beer.  does anyone out
there have some recommendations?  email to

brian.dulisse at wpo.ftc.gov

TIA

bd

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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 94 09:24:23 EDT
From: 12-Apr-1994 0918 -0400 <ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com>
Subject: All grain cost / Irish Moss

someone asked about the price of all-grain vs. extract.  here's my approx
cost for this brew, which will come out around 1.046 or so.

#9 2-row M&F pale malt                      $ 7.20      ( .80/lb)
#1 crystal                                  $ 1.05
3 oz hops                                   $ 2.25      ( 8oz for $6 bulk )
red star yeast                              $ 1.00      ( 2 pkgs )
propane for stove                           $ 1.50      ( approx )
                                            ------
                  total .................   $13.00

    
re: IRISH MOSS

Kinney (or anyeone), could you explain the IM rehydration procedure?  
specifically:

 - how much water? 
 - how much IM
 - shake it?  stir it?  let it sit?
 - when to add to the boil.

thanks,
jc

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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 94 10:19:35 EDT
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: RE: How much cheaper is all-grain than extract?


   Hi All,

   In HBD#1396, Bob Bessette writes:

>I have been extract brewing for approximately 6 months now and I find it very
>expensive to do so. Can you experienced all-grainers out there give me a cost
>differential on all-grain vs extract for a basic English-type amber ale?

   Last fall, I obtained some domestic 2 row malt (Harrington) through Lee
Menegoni, a frequent contributor to HBD, who happens to know a microbrewer.
We picked up a couple of hundred pounds of this malt for $0.40/lb., and set
out to brew the sub-$5 batch of beer.
   I used 9 pounds of this malt as a base, 1/4 cup of light crystal, 1 oz
of hops, and Wyeast 1056 American Ale yeast.  The hops were purchased in bulk,
and I culture yeast, so the cost for yeast was in the noise.  I figured the
cost of this batch:

9# malt * 0.40    = 3.60
1/4 cup * $1/lb   = 0.12
1z. hops * 0.40/z = 0.40
yeast - noise      ------
                   ~$4.12 for just under 6 gallons of 1.047 ale

   Granted, this was an extreme case, and it's not exactly an English ale,
but I can typically produce a like batch of ale for $7-$9 in ingredient costs.
The homebrew club to which I belong regularly organizes bulk purchases, which
allows me to obtain imported malts and hops at very good prices. 
   Bear in mind that there are some additional costs for equipment for all
grain brewing.  In my case, I started with Zapap setup for a lauter tun(got the
buckets for free), bought a Cajun cooker for $40, and built an immersion
chiller for ~$25. The largest single expense was for the brewpot.  Through a
friend who manages a restaurant, I picked up a used 10 gallon Vollrath with
lid for $80.  Some of the guys in my club have converted 1/2 bbl. Sankey kegs
into brewpots for much less.  Whatever you end up spending for equipment,
the cost will be recovered after the first several batches.
   IMHO, the only drawback in moving to all grain brewing is time.  It takes
me about 4 hours, including cleanup, for a single infusion mash.  This is
about twice as long as it used to take me to brew during my extract and
specialty grain days.  In my case, the benefits outweigh the additional time
involved.  YMMV.

                     Cheers,
                      Jim


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Date: 12 Apr 1994 07:37:14 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Doh!  Titanium Typo

Yesterdays post on Titanium brewpot cleaning should have read, 
The same cleaning agents that work for stainless, may or may not work for
TITANIUM, but you won't hurt it by trying them. 

John Palmer

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Date: 12 Apr 94 14:17:35 GMT
From: bms at develop2.attmail.com (Brian Skwarek - Applications Development)
Subject: NJ Brewpub

For all those who have not yet heard, there will be a *NEW* brewpub
opening in Princeton, NJ in September (I believe it will be the first 
in the state now that is it legal).  It will on on Nassau street where
Marita's Cantina was.  
	The newspaper said it will be three stories, with the bar surrounding
the the brewing area, which will be enclosed in glass.  I am a happy
camper indeed.


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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 94 11:10:54 EDT
From: Brian=Wilson%Eng%Banyan at hippo.banyan.com
Subject: Twistoff bottle caps

Hi,

    I recently bought some gold colored, 7 Up bottle caps.  This
    weekend, when I went to use them on my maple sap pale ale I had
    problems.  My hand held capper often went sideways when I applied
    pressure - resulting in a bent cap.  It was difficult to grab the
    cap with the capper, ie it slipped off several times.  The caps did
    not get the usual circular dent in the top.  After struggling a
    while, I noticed that the caps were twist-offs.

    I never had these problems capping in the past.  I doubt that my
    capper is suddenly wearing out, but could that be the case?  Are
    twist-off bottle caps inappropriate for bottling homebrew?	If so,
    beware unscrupulous brewshops such as the one that sold them to me.
    Finally, is my beer going to carbonate or are the seals also going
    to give me problems?

						cheers - brian





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Date: Thu, 07 Apr 1994 14:08:18 EDT
From: mop3 at midas.ho.BOM.GOV.AU (Stephen Hudson)
Subject: Homebrew Mail Order Catalogues

Hi,

Are there any HBD subscribers in the US who would be prepared to
put a collection of Mail Order catalogues/brochures together for
me? Not that I'd be buying anything mail order from the US, but
I'm just interested in reading what's avaiable to US homebrewers. 

Please E-mail me directly with any proposals. (eg cost, postage,
which companies, etc)

TIA Stephen

- --

Stephen Hudson				Telephone : +61 3 669-4563
Cataloguing Section			Fax	  : +61 3 669-4254
Bureau of Meteorology			Email: S.Hudson at BoM.GOV.AU
Melbourne Victoria AUSTRALIA

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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 94 12:44:12 EDT
From: bszymcz%ulysses at relay.nswc.navy.mil (Bill Szymczak)
Subject: Bottling foamy lagers


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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 94 10:54:31 MDT
From: npyle at n33.ecae.stortek.com
Subject: 18 yr. BW

Jim writes about the proposed 18 year Barley Wine:

>One of the points that has been overlooked in this thread is autolysis.  For
>a keeping beer like this, it is even more important to remove the ferment
>yeast using secondaries and maybe racking between corny kegs and force
>priming.  A 3 or 5 gallon corny would seem ideal, in ease and sanitation.

Why is the ferment yeast any more important to remove than the priming yeast
(Jim also mentioned adding priming yeast as one alternative)?  After 18 years,
I don't think the difference in age of a few months will be significant (the
ferment yeast is a few weeks/months older than the priming yeast).  This is
assuming that you end up with equal amounts of yeast in the finished product.
Force carbonating would seem to be the ticket to avoid autolysis, but don't
several commercial BWs bottle condition?

**

and Spencer mentions:

>3 hours should be the longest you'd boil, because at that point, the
>hot break starts to break back down into soluble protein.

I've never heard this.  Do you have references?  I'd like to read a bit about
this for curiosity sake.  My BW had an 8 hour boil and is sparkling clear,
FWIW.

Cheers,
Norm  =  npyle at n33.stortek.com

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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 11:45:46 -0700 (MDT)
From: walter at lamar.ColoState.EDU (Brian J Walter (Brewing Chemist))
Subject: German Weizens w/ yeast

Howdy!
	I am looking for some information regarding German Weizens.
Specifically I am wondering if there are any breweries that are known to
bottle with the weizen yeast, instead of using bottom-fermenting lager
yeast, which seems to be more common.

	I have a friend returning to Paris soon, and he going on a beer
hunt for me.  I gave him a list of Belgians to hunt down, and figured if
there were any weizens that may yield a yeast sample around I would have
him snag them too.

TIA.

Good Day,

Brian


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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 14:05:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: jeff344 at voodoo.lerc.nasa.gov (Jeff Berton)
Subject: Re: 5 gallon kegs - 3/$33

> Lynn (the owner) said she had about 500, but she's been shipping them them
> out like mad. She also said she had a line on another 1,000.  UPS man said
> she shipped more last week than IBM (RISC 6000 line is manufactured here)!

Big Brew beats Big Blue, eh?

Jeff


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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 14:04:35 -0400 (EST)
From: BUKOFSKY <sjb8052 at minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Subject: Thanks/Another question


Hey,

  Thanks to all for the help with my slow ferment problem.  I brewed my
next batch using some of your suggestions (better wort aeration, letting
starter ferment out longer, etc.) and it worked picture-perfect.  It's
happily finshing in the secondary now.  I will toast the HBD with the
first tasting.
  On another note, my last beer has been fermenting in the secondary for
6+ weeks (it's Wyeast Belgian white, notoriously slow).  My question is
this: when I bottle, should I add more yeast?  Are my tired slow yeasties
I started with too sluggish to produce good carbonation?  If I should, can
I just use rehydrated dry yeast rather than shelling out $3.50 for another
package of Wyeast?  Will this make any appreciable difference?

Thanks again,

Scott

No cute comment.



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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 94 11:40:00 PDT
From: "McGaughey, Nial" <nmcgaugh at hq.walldata.com>
Subject: re: Zima/Shandy?


Hi. IMHO zima is a malted rice based beverage, with a little barley in it. 
the lemon additive sounds right, but I taste too much rice in the drink. 
True revelations anyone?

Nial McGaughey
My opinions are my own, not Wall Data's

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Date: 12 Apr 1994 14:45:27 U
From: "Mark Merchant" <Mark_Merchant at gatormail.wi.mit.edu>
Subject: test message



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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 94 15:24:17 EDT
From: bszymcz%ulysses at relay.nswc.navy.mil (Bill Szymczak)
Subject: Bottling foamy lagers

Last week I bottled a lager (Helles) but had a hell of a time due to
the amount of carbonation already in the beer.  This beer was lagered for
1 month at 36 F, and before bottling I took it out of the refrigerator
and let it sit for about 2 hours.  As usual, I racked it onto a
pre-boiled and cooled solution of priming sugar into my bottling bucket
(an 8 gallon enamel pot with an EASYMASH (tm) spigot).  I tightened a
clear plastic hose onto the spigot with a small "O" clamp to make sure it
was air tight, and used a brass (Phil's) filler, which with ales, allows
me to fill bottles nearly to the brim with little or no splashing.  
This time transferring the beer into the bottles caused so much foaming that
it took me 3 or 4 passes to fill them.  I know that liquids can hold more
dissolved gas at cooler temperatures so this may be the explanation (or
at least part of it).  I remember having the same problem last year with
my first two lagers, but at the time thought it was because of an air
leak in my old bottling bucket or the use of an orange tip spring filler.
Has anyone else had this problem with bottling lagers before?
Is setting the beer at room temperature for a day or so before bottling
so it can degas a possible solution?  

Bill Szymczak       bszymcz at ulysses.nswc.navy.mil
Gaithersburg, MD

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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 12:59:30 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Apologies-Hot Head/ Hopstarts

Public apologies for my tirade of the other day.
But really!  It was meant in a joking light!  I truly thought I made
that clear!  Poor Peter, thought it was a REAL attack. Sorry dude!

Any kegging is good kegging (IMHO). ANY brewing is better than NO brewing!

I did state my respect for extract brews. Some of which are quite fine.
I just like the creative effort. That's why I encourage use of grains
in SOME form. At least specialties, if not partial mashes.

I do realize that moving an extra fridge, and even having space for it
is not a practicality for many students in small apartments. 
There was a time in my life...I wasn't brewing then though!

A real man (or woman) is not measured by the size of their brewing pot!

FWIW:  I hade 2 "was that really necessary" to one "great joke!" replies.
My goal was to "EXAGERATE" !  Over emphasize the wastefulness of tirades.
And pointlessness of some of these arguments! I promise not to do it again.

Philosophical Note: 
	Everything I say is a lie. 
	Do you believe what I just said????


HOPS: 
 Just got my three new varieties from FreshHops: Nugget,N.Brewer,Williamette.
NICE  FAT  rhizomes. Bigger and buddier than the ones I got last year!
Can't wait to close on the new house and start new mounds!

Making Starts:  Last years varieties are sending up excess shoots.
I like asparagus, but can't bring myself to just waste them.

Cut shoots just below soil level with at least 4 sets of leaves above ground.
Remove lower set or two of leaves. Cut at a slant just below a node (branch).
Dip in rooting powder. Place in a small amount of water on warm window sill
in GOOD sunlight. Check water level daily. I've observed the small hairs on
the stems to become roots in a few days.  Gently plant start in a small pot
in a mix of potting soil, peat moss, sand, and vermiculite. Water from below
and place in sun.  Transfer to a bigger pot in a few weeks. Then move outside.

I've also tried the procedure w/o the water rooting. These are too young to 
tell if they are sucessful. But after a few days I've seen NO wilting, so I'd
say I'm on my way.  I don't expect much out of these first year, but it's
an easy way to share some varieties with friends, and I plan some ornamental
hops on trellises- just for the fun of it. Archways covered in the yard.
The Mrs. to be wants climbing roses, so we'll just have to do both. 
And see who wins!  (go hops go!!!)

HOP YARD:  Pole ideas.

I've found a cheap source of rough cut poles for about $5 for a 20 footer.
Sounds like a bargain to me! Problem is I don't have a ladder that big!
I surely would like to harvest the hops I plant so here's a couple ideas
I'm working on.

1. Dig down 3 feet, bury poles in cement. Have pulleys affixed to the top of
the poles with strong twine run through them. At harvest, just untie the end
and pull the line down (knot in end, string attached to it won't run out of
the pulley) for easy harvest at ground level.  Poles stay put.

2. Dig down, bury BIG piece of PVC pipe in ground. Place pole into pipe.
Should protect from soil-rotting. Drill holes through side of pipe, install
big screws to hole pole stable (like a x-mas tree stand, or, even USE an
x-mas tree stand!).  At harvest time, the whole pole can be lifted out
and laid down for ground level harves.

3. Damn it all and buy a big ladder!  (I'd rather buy brewing supplies and
a washing machine!)

The idea I'm working on is a May-pole type arrangement, with one pole
per variety (currently 7!) and a couple mounds of each variety climbing
up stringers attached to top of pole. Leaves me the opportunity to expand
by adding more mounds in future years.

RHIZOME HARVEST:  Recent reading of the Hops special issue, and conversation
with Art (brew supplier SLC) has left me with the notion that it is best
to try to harvest rhizomes AFTER shoots have begun to appear.
Central shoots should be trained up stringers. 3 per string, two strings
per root mass.   The farthest outlying shoots (ones growing almost 
horizontally observed about three or more inches out from central stem)
can be CAREFULLY excavated toward central stem. THESE will be rhizomes,
the stem will have bulges along it's length- buds ready to become more shoots.
The rhizome can be cut away from main stem, and cut into smaller sections,
but leave bud bulges at each end to give it a good chance of growth.

I tried to find some rhizomes before shoots emerged. I think I ended up with
pieces of root!  You want them to have shoots, or signs of shoots on them
for them to become successful hops.

Coyote Brew Note:  Brewed a porter on sunday. Got the Coyote Cooker (no tm!)
up to a rolling boil with the 15 gallons churning away. Went out to play with
the hops, and came back to find the burners off!  Oh no! Out of gas!
Propane store closed on sunday!  Argh!   Good thing the neighbors have a 
gas grill!  Thanks for the loan!

FWIW:  4 batches on a gas tank I had in the camper for two years w/o ever
filling it. It had what it had when I bought it! This time I'll count how
many batches I get from a FULL tank!   Maybe I'll look into tapping into the
gas line in the NEW COYOTE BREWERY  (aka garage!).  Any experiences to share?

Again- pardon the banter. I'm a sneaky jokester. I can't help it sometimes!
I WILL try to refrain myself.  Really I will!  Stop laughing- I mean it! ;)

    |\
  |\| \/|   \-\-\-  John (The Coyote) Wyllie   SLK6P at cc.usu.edu  -/-/-/
   \    |      Originally in Logan, soon to be Smithfield (utah.   shhhhhh)
    ----


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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 11:58:04 -0700
From: glent at falstaff.cache.tek.com (Glen Tinseth)
Subject: Hop flavor and aroma


Jack Skeels (JSKEELS at MCIMAIL.COM) wrote in HBD 1395:

<How do I calculate (even ball-park) my flavor and aroma creation 
<[from hops] during the boil?

Good question, unsatisfying answer (sorry). There is nothing like the 
alpha acid utilization vs. time plot available for quantifying hop 
flavor and aroma creation. It is difficult to measure the aroma 
potential of the hops themselves, let alone the rate at which they 
give it up. 

Hop oil is made up of two major fractions, one we find in beer, the 
other (the hydrocarbons like myrcene) we usually don't. Most of the 
hop oil compounds found in beer are oxidation or fermentation 
products of the original compounds in the raw hops. The same hop 
sample can give very different flavor and aroma results, depending on 
the timing and method of the addition. The longer the boil, the more 
of the volatile hop oil components are driven off with the steam. 
Using a hop back(jack) and dryhopping are two other ways to get even 
more (and different!) hop flavor and aroma in your beer.

To be consistent you need to:
	*   Start with quality, reliable hops.
	*   Evaluate the aroma characteristics of each new lot of hops 
	    you get by rubbing a few cones between your hands and 
	    smelling after a minute or two, or by making a hop tea.
	*   Make sure your brewing process is consistent, ie use a 
	    decent scale, measure wort volumes, keep track of the time.
	*   Exclude oxygen from the finished beer. It is the enemy of 
	    hop aroma and flavor (and a lot of other things).
	*   Keep good notes of everything.

I think the above advice can be applied in other brewing related 
situations as well. For more information on hop aroma and flavor, 
Brewing Techniques carried a little article I wrote in the last 
issue. The editor, Steve Mallory (bteditor at aol.com), usually sends 
out a sample issue to those of you still missing out on this 
excellent magazine. I have no connection to BT other than the 
aforementioned article. I hope this helps. Feel free to email me if 
you have any more hop questions. 

Glenn

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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 13:19:56 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Brewing in Utah (shhhh!)

'nother quick note here:


I must say it's nice to see other Utah brewers on the net.
In a state where brewing is not officially legal, good to know
it happens anyway!  But just don't tell anyone!

Any lawyers out there want to come to our rescue and bring our
"great" state of Utarrr (as Mark sed) up to join the rest of the
20th century!  Any ACLU'ers our there want a good battle?

Hell.....uh, erh...I mean, "Oh my Heck" you can't even buy beer on
sunday in my Happy Little Valley.  Smithfield is closer to Idaho FWIW!

NEW BREWPUB: Salt Lake City.

Red Rock Brewing   259 S. 200 W. SLC.  (around the corner from Squatters)
Had 5 beers when I went there. Kind of a mix of Yuppies and deadheads.
Foods not too bad. The beer is pretty respectable. (a big step up from...
groan...Ebeneezers in Ogden. No wonder he's such a humbug!)

They have 4 stainless fermenters, brew from ...GRAIN (8-) using a RIMS system
Couldn't get too much details. Waitresses didn't have a clue. The guy they
sent over knew a few things, but the brewer wasn't in, so I couldn't REALLY
find out about their setup.  They use one yeast (don't know which), and filter
SOME of the beers.  One of which is their honey-wheat beer.
(Filter a wheat beer?  Strange - you say?  That's what I thought!)

They had a stout stout, a pale, amber as regulars. They had two specialties,
the Honey wheat, and a dark irish ale.

My favorite was the Amber. Heard (from Art's flunky) that they dry hop
with 4 pounds of cascade.  I forget the bbl size (to put it in perspective)
But I CAN tell you it had some seriously Joyous Hop Flavor! Funny, it didn't
seem to have lots of aroma, but a very nice cascade hop finish. Very pleasant.
Very fresh.  I didn't ask- but I'd have to guess whole hops were used.

The restaurant had a rather industrial look- open ceiling, duct work visible.
Guess it's a fad!  The brewing area was in an enclosed glass room.
Sparkling stainless, and 5 gal. buckets bubbling furiously with the new
ferments.  

I would recommend checking them out if you're in the area. But be warned, it
is Utah Beer. So it is (at least supposed to be ) 3.2% alcohol. In case they
get checked!  Good flavor and body anyway.

ALSO:  I've heard that the Lazy Moon is carrying Eddie McStiffs and other
Utah micro's on tap.  Haven't made it there, but heard it's worth a visit.
If anyone has 1st hand (or tongue!) experience, please let me know!

Finally:  FWIW.  I beleive that the big guys bottle beer "special"
for states as great as ours. That is...they water down their regular beer
to accomodate Utahs backasswards liquor laws... so they ship 3.2 beer here 
for our consumption. But never on a sunday of course!  Sundays are for

		 	H O M E B R E W   !!!!!!	


    |\
  |\| \/|   \-\-\-  John (The Coyote) Wyllie   SLK6P at cc.usu.edu  -/-/-/
   \    |      Originally in Logan, soon to be Smithfield (utah.   shhhhhh)
    ----


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 12 Apr 94 14:00:50 PDT
From: "Mark E. Stull, no DTN 12-Apr-1994 1639" <stull at koal.enet.dec.com>
Subject: What am I doing wrong (kegging question)?

I'm having a bit of a problem with my kegging set-up, and thought I'd
turn to the collective wisdom of the net - I know someone's got to know
the answer to my problem.

In a nutshell, the problem is that my beers are being dispensed as foam.
I've got them in the fridge under ~ 15 lbs. of pressure.  Unable to wait
any longer, I just had to try some after letting it sit under pressure
for about a week to carbonate.  So I hooked up my dispenser nozzle, with
its two feet of hose, and proceeded to draw a mug of foam.  This isn't 
right, I said to myself.  Upon reading the kegging proto-FAQ, I realized
that maybe a 6-foot length of dispensing hose was the answer.  So I acquired
six feet of hose (3/16" ID, if I'm reading it right), hooked it up, and...
foam.  Cursing quietly to myself, I lowered the pressure in the keg to less
than 5 lbs., and (you guessed it)... foam.  Once the foam settles, I've got
a part of a mug of pretty flat beer.  If I'm patient, I can draw enough of
a mug to make it worthwhile in about ten minutes.

At this point, I'm wondering whether there's any hope, or whether I've 
just re-invented the fire extuinguisher.

TIA for any help anyone can offer.  Private e-mail is fine, and I'll
summarize the responses.

Mark E. Stull
Digital Equipment Corporation

stull at koal.enet.dec.com

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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 94 15:10:57 MST
From: birkelan at adtaz.sps.mot.com (Joel Birkeland)
Subject: Native Hops/JS

Native Hops:

As I was perusing my "Sunset Western Garden Book" I noticed a short
paragraph on Native American Hops (Humulus Americanus [?]), which they
stated were very similar to H. Lupulus, and occurred naturally in the
southern Rockies.  Has anyone heard of these before?

I find this interesting, since the southern rockies might possibly
include regions outside what is considered optimal for H. Lupulus.

On a similar note, has anyone out there successfully grown hops in 
the south?  I know that there were some who tried it in Austin.
Any luck?  I know there was a post recently that indicated that
no cones would be produced south of the 40th parallel, but I would
prefer to hear from someone with first hand knowledge.

I grew some hops in Phoenix last year.  The Centennial and Cascade
grew about 6 feet and flowered, but seemed to be punished by a 
combination of poor soil, intense sunlight, and whiteflies.  I
recently moved to a mini-farm where the soil is much better and I 
will try again.

JS:

If Jack Schmidling did not exist, it would be necessary to invent
him.  IMHO, the most interesting discussions on the HBD arise when
Jack throws out an idea and then others attempt to shoot it down.
Also, I doubt if I would have tried all-grain brewing without an
Easymasher.  It is by far the simplest approach I have seen.

Joel Birkeland
Motorola SPS

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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 16:24:33 -0500 (cdt)
From: Jonathan G Knight <KNIGHTJ at AC.GRIN.EDU>
Subject: to fine or not to fine


Greetings, wort hogs:

I am over a week behind in my HBD reading, so the threads last week on Irish 
Moss and finings are what I just read.   That reminded me that I've got what 
is supposed to be a light-colored beer in the secondary which I may bottle up 
pretty soon, and I FORGOT the Irish Moss (duh) when I brewed it.

Would anyone like to venture an opinion on whether fining the beer before 
bottling (I would probably opt for the gelatin method) will improve chances 
of getting clear beer, or shall I just bottle it and enjoy the haze?

Oh, yes, it's an ale made with Wyeast "German," so I won't be serving it THAT 
cold.

JK

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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 18:57 PST
From: TARVINJ at axe.humboldt.edu
Subject: extracts, all grains, and grinding

I have been very hesitant to contribute to the extract vs.
all-grain debate, but some recent posts have forced my hand.

I have been brewing for only about 6 mos. and my first 3 of
7 beers have been extract.  The switch has been completely to
my satisfaction and savings.  I had a brewpot, a plastic
fermenter, and a 5 gal. carboy.  I bought a spigot for the
carboy, a grain bag and 50 ft. of 3/8 in. copper tubing and
a fitting to hook this up to my garden hose.  All this
cost me less than $25.

As far as grain: A local microbrewery here (Blue Lake, CA)
is very helpful to homebrewers.  They will sell you 2-row
pale malted barley for 40 cents/lb. and all specialty grains
for 60 cents/lb.  You have to buy in lots, 100# for pale malt
and 10# for specitalty malts.  They will also grind your grain
for free.  Additionally they sell 6 varieties of hops for 
5.50-6.50/#.  And finally, they will give you a pitch of live
yeast from the bottom of their fermenter for nothin' if you
bring them a jar.  This of course allows me to make my beer
for a fraction of the cost of an extract brew.  Also, having
lots of already-ground grain just lying around allows for
brewing on short notice, without having to come up with $10-15
for extract (I'm a student, cash gets tight)

I realize that everyone may not be so blessed, but certainly
such sales to homebrewers can be profitable to any brewery.
For those who have breweries in their area, ask 'em.  A nice
profit can be made while still remaining very competetive
with extracts or even homebrew supply shops grain.

About all-grainers being so defensive and extracters taking
offense at this.  I was the same way.  When I was looking into
starting to brew a friend said don't mess around in extracts.
I thought what he was describing seemed like a whole lot more
work for not many results.  I also felt that he was a bit too
pushy about it for my liking.  But after my first batch of all-grain,
I understood and felt just as strongly.  Though I must admit that
those first few batches helped me conceptually, prepared me for
all-grain, I would now tell anyone who brews to not dwell on extracts
too long.  Money and quality alone should be reason enough to 
"make the switch".

Hope no one took offense at my defense :)

Jay
Tarvinj at Axe.humboldt.edu

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Date: Tue, 12 Apr 94 22:54:19 EDT
From: slkinsey at aol.com
Subject: Does RIMS over-clarify?

I just read Dave Miller's article in the latest issue of Brewing Techniques,
and an interesting issue came up.  A writer was disputing the practice of
wort recirculation for clarification because doing so could "filter out" most
of the lipids, which yeast use in performing their yeastly duties.  A
scarcity of lipids can contribute to "long lag times, slow fermentations, and
other symptoms of poor yeast nutrition."  
Anyway, besides extolling the positive benefits of recirculation, Miller
replied that the degree of recirulation typically employed by homebrewers
would be unlikely to produce problems.  However, he did mention a brewery
that was able to clarify their wort through recirculation until it was as
clear as filtered beer... as a result they did experience these problems, and
actually traced it to a "lipid deficiency" caused by over-clarification. 
They were then able to solve the problem by shortening their vorlauf, and
starting with a somewhat less clear wort.
How does this apply to RIMS, you ask?  Given that the wort is being
recirculated constantly for an hour or more, and that a brilliantly clear
wort is typically produced - is it not logical that RIMS-produced worts would
suffer from a paucity of lipids?
My questions to all of you are:  Well... what's the deal here?  Is my logic
sound?  Do RIMS users frequently experience fermentation problems
attributable to a lipid-poor wort?  Does/can RIMS produce a lipid-poor wort? 
If so, what can be done to minimize this problem?  How does one test for
lipids, anyway?
This ought to give the techies something to chew on for a while ;-)    ------
  thanks for your help.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1397, 04/13/94