FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Would like comments on first batch problems (perkins)
  Anyone Have a Watneys Creame Stout Recipe? (Stuart Siegler)
  weissbeer, cookers (btalk)
  Question about partial mashing with specialty grains (Bill Hollingsworth)
  "topping up" carboy? (Chuck Wettergreen)
  Williams (Wyeast) Yeast (JEFF GUILLET)
  Whatneys Creamy Stout (Fredric Zimmerman)
  deClerq, Irish Moss, late hops (Jeff Frane)
  BW again (Dennis Davison)
  r.e. Subject: Bottling foamy lagers (Jeff Sargent)
  Review:  Beer and Ale:  A Video Guide (Alan_Marshall)
  raising pH without using carbonate (Jay Lonner)
  Yeast Starters: Full Liquid vs. Sediment (Phil Brushaber)
  js (Don Put)
  Dragon's Rest Ale Recipe (katanka)
  Address change (geren1)
  CELIS WHITE CLONE (djfitzg)
  Re: 3 hr boils (Jim Grady)
  Wyeast 1056 and PET bottles ("Anderso_A")
  priming questions for high gravity brews (Jim Sims)
  doppelbock; weisse (btalk)
  pH of Sparge Water (Jack Schmidling)
  Cost results and Cooler question... (Bob Bessette)
  Cost results and Cooler question... (Bob Bessette)
  Beginners Recipe (Rich Larsen)
  Well, I tried... (Jeff Frane)
  BW yeast removal (Bob Jones)
  Re: EM as hop back/cobras/Micah & Lipids/misc (Jim Busch)
  cost of extract brews (Jim West)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 13 Apr 94 14:51:16 EDT
From: perkins at zippy.ho.att.com
Subject: Would like comments on first batch problems

Dear HBD Experts,

    I recently brewed my first batch from a kit packaged by a local home
brew supply store.  I have run into a few problems and would appreciate any
comments from experts here on HBD.  In the spirit of limiting the "how did
you do ..." exchanges, I am giving fairly detailed steps of what I did.

    The kit said it was for 5.5 gal. of beer, using the following
ingredients:

		 5.5 lb  M&F Amber extract
		 6   oz  crystal malt
		 2   oz  chocolate malt
		 1   oz  Willamette hops (60 min boil)
		 0.5 oz  Willamette hops (15 min boil)
		 0.5 oz  Willamette hops (5 min boil)
		11.5 g   Edme Ale yeast (dry)

I crushed the grains (lightly), put them in grain bag and into the boiler
(3 gal H2O), removing them when H2O started to boil.  I then boiled for
1 hr, adding hops as noted above.  I placed the boiler in my (sanitized)
bathtub with COLD H2O (it was Xmas weekend, and the tap water was probably
32.0001 F).  The wort got over-cooled (~45F) while I was making a yeast
starter.  Since the remaining 2.5 gal H2O was sitting on the porch (25F) in
closed jugs, I added some boiled water (still hot) to bring the temp of the
wort to 70F.  I am assuming that this method of getting the wort to proper
temperature was not bad, though maybe not good.  If I had to do it over, I
might wait for the wort to come up to temp more gradually---help me out here.

    I made a yeast starter of 1 tsp. sugar and 1 cup boiled H2O at 90F.
After about 30 min, the starter was pitched and fermenter was shaken
vigorously (after putting the lid on 8{) ) to aerate.  OG was 1.034
(according to the supplier of the kit it should have been approx. 1.035).

    Initial fermentation was _vigorous_ and settled down within 24 hrs.  I
let fermentation continue for 7 days (following the instructions with the
kit).  FG was 1.012  (supplier of kit said it should be 1.010-1.012).

    I measured the priming sugar that came with the kit, but didn't write
it down 8{(.  To the best of my recollection, it was slightly more than
3/4-cup.  I boiled the sugar with 2 cups H2O, bottled the beer and waited.
After one week there was very little carbonation, noticeable hop flavor,
but that was about it.  Two weeks after that (3 weeks in the bottle), the
carbonation was perfect for my taste (I prefer lower carbonation), the hops
were more noticeable, but other flavors were severely lacking.  The head
retention of the beer at this point was terrible (my glassware was *clean*
and no rinse agent-- hand washed).  Overall, the flavor was "flat".  Over
the next 10 weeks, the flavor, carbonation, and head remained about the
same.  Then, all of a sudden, the beer was *extremely* carbonated, but the
flavor had not changed--no off tastes or after-tastes.  Some bottles border
on being gushers.  Needless to say, head retention is better 8{), but there
is little or no lace on the glass.

    I have three questions:
	1) Can "reheating" overcooled wort by adding hot H2O cause problems?
	2) What can I do to improve the flavor and head of the beer?
	3) Why did the carbonation go crazy?

I suspect that the answer to the second question is to use more extract,
but is there anything else to do?  Papazian (NCJHB) leads me to believe
that the carbonation extravaganza is from wild yeast, but I would have
thought that wild yeast would lead to off flavors, as well.

    Overall, I'm quite pleased, but before going on to my next batch, I'd
appreciate hearing comments/advice on the problems noted.

Thanks for the help.
Mark Perkins
perkins at zippy.ho.att.com

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Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 15:50 EDT
From: Stuart Siegler <SSIEGLER%SWEENY at LANDO.HNS.COM>
Subject: Anyone Have a Watneys Creame Stout Recipe?


	Anyone Have a Watneys Creame Stout Recipe? Preferably
	an all-extract (please don't flame me Jack, I have a small kitchen)...

	TIA

	Stuart Siegler

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Date: Wed, 13 Apr 94 15:51:49 EDT
From: btalk at aol.com
Subject: weissbeer, cookers

I just got some Kindl Berliner Weisse!! 
Does anyone have experience making this with lactic bacteria or lactic acid?
Where can you get lactic acid somewhat easily?
Someone asked about a King Cooker modification that prevented carbon build up
at low throttle. I use the 170,000btu model that has basically an oversize
stove type burner, not the jet kind, and I haven't experienced the
blackening.
One thing I do notice is that at higher flame levels, the flames start
'lifting' above the burner unless I cut back the air.This doesn't seem to
cause any problem that I am aware of besides increasing the noise level!
Regards,Bob Talkiewicz <btalk at aol,com>

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Date:         Wed, 13 Apr 94  16:48:31 EDT
From: Bill Hollingsworth <U9508WH at VM1.HQADMIN.DOE.GOV>
Subject:       Question about partial mashing with specialty grains


To anyone on the HBD who can help me:

I'm an extract brewer who wants to get into all-grain brewing gradually.
I've made several batches with specialty grains and since these don't
need to be mashed, I've never worried about it.  Now, however, I'd like
to do a partial mash, and want to know if I should include the specialty
grains in the mash, or just steep them separately like I've been doing.
I realize that specialty grains don't have any enzymes, but I'm
concerned about overtaxing or "spreading thin" the enzymes from the pale
malt which I'd like to add to my recipe.  I'd like to start with no more
than 2 lbs. of pale male to about 2 lbs. of specialty grains.  Since
specialty grains such as crystal malt have a lot of dextrins, would the
beta-amylase enzymes in the pale malt break these down to fermentables
and thereby defeat the purpose of the crystal (e.g., sweetness,
mouthfeel); and/or would the enzymes from 2 lbs. of pale malt get lost
in 2 additional lbs. of specialty grains, and therefore not be in
sufficient quantity to do the job of conversion in the pale malt?  Would
a diastatic malt extract help supplement pale malt enzymes spread thin
in a mash of 50% or more specialty grains, and if so, how much do I add?
(BTW, what does D.M.E. stand for:  Diastatic Malt Extract or Dried Malt
Extract? - I've seen reference to both.)  TIA  :-)

My various E-Mail Addresses --->
OfficeVision:  DOEVM(U9508WH)     BITNET:  U9508WH at DOEVM.BITNET
Internet:  u9508wh at vm1.hqadmin.doe.gov
X.400:  ADMD=ATTMAIL/PRMD=USDOE/O=HQADMIN/OU1=DOEVM/OU2=U9508WH

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Date: Wed, 13 Apr 94 13:30:00 -0600
From: chuck.wettergreen at aquila.com (Chuck Wettergreen)
Subject: "topping up" carboy?



Thomas Aylesworth < AYLSWRTH at MANVM2.VNET.IBM.COM>> wrote in HBD 
#1397:
PN>   Subject: New batch of beer;
PN> New batch of questions!


PN> complete gallon - than I ever did before due to the amount of
PN> cold break material.  So, I ended up having to top up with
PN> almost 2 gallons of water.  I really can't wait to see the
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This reply is not really a comment on Thomas' questions, but rather a
question about current practices. Recently in both the HBD and R.C.B.
I have seen a number of cases where (relatively) new brewers are "topping
up" their carboys when racking to a secondary, or in this case, 
topping up to make up for hot/cold break losses. In this case, if 
Thomas was not doing a full volume boil I can understand adding 
water to reach the recipe volume, but topping up a secondary to 
reduce headspace? Am I nuts or has someone come to a miraculous 
conclusion that the cause of HSA is headspace in a secondary carboy? 
I always figured that CO2 coming out of solution during the racking 
process would provide a temporary shield over the brew until the 
secondary fermentation CO2 drives the oxygen out of the carboy.

FWIW, I don't dilute, simply because I usually wind up oversparging 
and more often than not have to boil more than an hour to get to 
recipe volume and gravity. If I make a 5-gallon batch that winds up 
having 1 gallon of hot/cold break, well then I've made a 4-gallon 
batch.

Someone said that Charlie P wrote in his book that the secondary 
should be "topped up". I haven't looked for the reference, can it be 
true?

Chuck
Chuck.wettergreen at aquila.com
 * RM 1.3 00946 *  If idiots could fly, the White House would be an airport.

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Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 17:11:00 GMT
From: jeff.guillet at lcabin.com (JEFF GUILLET)
Subject: Williams (Wyeast) Yeast


Hiya Yeast Gurus,

I'm a long time reader, first time poster.

I just got a Brown Ale beer kit from William's Brewing Co. and this is
my first use of liquid yeast.  I read on the yeast packet's label that
the yeast (William's calls it Burton) is made by Wyeast Labs.  However,
it doesn't tell you the Wyeast yeast number.  When I called William's
to find out which Wyeast it is, they told me that information is not
available to the public.

Question #1:  Does anybody know which WYeast this is?
Question #2:  Why won't William's tell the public which Wyeast they use?

 -Jeff-         <j.guillet at lcabin.com>

 * SPEED 1.30 [NR] * A good marriage outlasts the first box of dental floss.

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Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 16:20:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: fritz at mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Fredric Zimmerman)
Subject: Whatneys Creamy Stout




	Hello All,

	I am fairly new to the art of homebrewing and would like a close
recipe for Whatneys Creamy Stout.  Does anyone have any ideas?  I do have
cats meow II, are any of these recipes close?  I am looking for a full grain
recipe of one can be found, but will take any input.

					Thanks

						Fritz


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Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 14:22:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: deClerq, Irish Moss, late hops

Someone posted a query about deClerq's brewing text.  Here is some
information: DeClerq's book has been out of print since the late 50s.  I
had hoped to rectify the situation myself, doing a facsimile edition,
but, alas, put it off a couple of months too long.  Yesterday, I spoke
in person with Etienne DeClerq, the late author's son, who works for
DeWolf-Cosyns.  Two months ago, he gave permission for reprinting the
book to Siebel Institute.   Presumably, they will make the two volumes
available this year or next.   It's a big book, so don't look for it too
soon and don't look for it cheap.

For those merely interested in reading it, consult your library.  There
are a number of copies available through the inter-library loan system.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

There were a couple of questions about using Irish Moss, dealing with
re-hydration and quantity.  "Correct" quantity, based on George Fix's
research and my own personal experience, for a five gallon full-wort
boil, is 1.5 teaspoons (roughly three times the quantity most homebrew
texts offer).  I re-hydrate mine about the time I start the boil.  I
don't get a big glob this way, but it does seem to quick in more quickly
than when tossed in dry.


Oh, yes, somewhere between 15 and 30 minutes before end-boil.  That's
what *I* do, although I know there are some who suggest putting in it at
the beginning of the boil.  I don't want to argue that one anymore!!!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

During the microbrewers conference going on the last few days here in
Portland, I talked with one of the representatives from Peter Austin &
Partners, a British firm building breweries and brewpubs around the
world.  I was particularly intrigued by their systems because they
appeared to be much less expensive than many, they use open fermenters,
and they were right next to my booth.  At any rate, they have something
innovative they call a Hop Percolator, into which the finishing hops are
placed at the end of the mash.  It is a closed unit, which soaks the
hops in hot water and prevents any of the volatiles from boiling off.
After the boil is finished, the wort is whirlpooled, then run through
the Hop Percolator on the way to the chiller.  They are very hot on this
idea as a way to assure absolutely consistent utilization of finishing
hops, and made a fairly convincing argument in its favor.

The nature of the operation *requires* that it be closed.  In other
words, this wouldn't work at home unless you could pump the wort through
some kind of vessel in which you'd been steeping your hops.  But... it
was interesting.  

- --Jeff


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Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 17:43:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dennis Davison <exe01679 at char.vnet.net>
Subject: BW again

Sorry Al, but I still disagree. For a beer that's going to last almost 20 
years at start at 500 IBU's. I've done an Imperial Stout with 265 IBU's 
and within the first month you could taste it. Within 2 months it had a 
real nice blend to it. Now almost 1 1/2 years later the hops have faded 
quite a bit. When was the last time you had a 20 year old Thomas Hardy ? 
I think the oldest you'll get is maybe 5 years. (Unless you cellar one 
for that long). I know that it's supposed to last 20 years but will it 
with just as much hop character ?  I'm speculating on the fact that the 
hops in 20 years will diminish. By how much is up for debate. The only 
true test would be a chemical analysis of the same beer every year for 
the next 20 years. (GREAT MASTERS THESIS, but that would be a 20 year 
project, for the thesis maybe 5 years would be ok). Any of you guys in 
college for chemistry want to give this a try ? The results would be very 
interesting.

Oh, Al it the 1993 Midwest Homebrewer not 94. The 1994 won't be decided 
until December.

Someone the other day asked about the difference in price between 
All-Grain and Extract. All Grain cost's me about $12.00 per 5 gallon 
batch using a fresh liquid yeast with each batch. Extract would run $29.
Based on using the same hops and yeast just changing extract for grain. 
Some All Grainers can get down to $9.00 (using domestic grains).

Dennis Davison  exe01679 at char.vnet.net   Exec-Pc, Milwaukee, Wi 414-789-4210

99 carboys of beer on the floor, 99 carboys of beer. If one of these carboys
should happen to keg, then 98 carboys of beer on the floor.



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Date: Wed, 13 Apr 94 18:12:00 -0500
From: jeff_sargent at il.us.swissbank.com (Jeff Sargent)
Subject: r.e. Subject: Bottling foamy lagers

>> From: bszymcz%ulysses at relay.nswc.navy.mil (Bill Szymczak)
>> Subject: Bottling foamy lagers

I just bottled a Weissbeer last week, that had been in a secondary  
for about a week -- and had the exact same problem, though not to  
that extent.    In fact I was also using a bottling bucket w/spigot,  
a short length of tubing, and a phils philler.

I am still not sure how the foam was being produced -- although I am
starting to think the phils philler may be responsible.  It is nice  
to use and leaves little headspace, but it may be aerating the beer.
I haven't had that much experience with the old spring-loaded fillers  
to say for sure.

 - Jeff

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Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 19:59 EDT
From: Alan_Marshall <AK200032 at Sol.YorkU.CA>
Subject: Review:  Beer and Ale:  A Video Guide

I have posted a review of "Beer and Ale:  A Video Guide" to
rec.food.drink.beer and alt.beer.  If you cannot access Usenet, and 
would like a copy of the review, email me.  If I get overwhelmed by 
requests, I'll post here.

- --
- -- Alan Marshall                "If a picture is worth a thousand
   AK200032 at SOL.YORKU.CA        words, a taste is worth a thousand
   York University              pictures." - Charles Finkel, Pike
   Toronto, Canada              Place Brewery/Merchant du Vin


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Date: 13 Apr 1994 20:09:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Jay Lonner <8635660 at NESSIE.CC.WWU.EDU>
Subject: raising pH without using carbonate

I had my water tested at the lab I work at and came up with interesting
results.  pH is low -- 6.3 -- but the water is extremely soft.  In fact, there
is no appreciable concentration of any ion in my tap water.

I have found that I need to add significant amounts of calcium carbonate (like
4 teaspoons for my last beer, a steam beer) in order to get pH up to 5.0 during
the boil.  This would not be acceptable for brewing a pilsner (which I really
want to do) and it also keeps me from using Burton water salts and the like,
which would lower the pH even more.  I'm left wondering what to do to bring
that pH up.  There are several ways of lowering pH, so I assume that there are
alternate ways of raising pH as well.

Any suggestions for books that I should check out (I have Miller -- it's a
sacred text to me but doesn't deal with my specific problem).

Jay.

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Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 20:11:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Phil Brushaber <pbrush at netcom.com>
Subject: Yeast Starters: Full Liquid vs. Sediment


I've got a question that I am sure many other HBD'ers have.
It concerns yeast starters. 

We are encouraged to  pitch a large volume of yeast. Typically a 
quart or half-gallon. But what does this mean?

Should you pitch the entire volume of the starter? Or (assuming
that you let it ferment out) just the sediment at the bottom of the
starter bottle. 

Assuming that you want to build a large volume of yeast cells, but do 
not want to pitch volumes of starter into your brew... Now let's assume
that you have a lot of patience and that you can begin your starter
3-4 weeks before you actually brew. Suppose that you brew up about a
half gallon of starter, let it ferment and settle out, pour off all
but the sediment, add another half gallon of starter, repeat the process
a couple of times.... would the final resulting sediment have a huge
volume of yeast? Or are you pouring out a ton of the yeast as you
pour off the liquid each time.

To date, I have been brewing up a half gallon of starter and throwing the
whole thing in, but many times I am adding "brew" made from cheap
extract when in fact what I only want to add is a strong yeast
population.

Since I think this would be of interest to many brewers, I would appreciate 
answers here but will accept them privately. Thanks!

                                             pbrush at netcom.com



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Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 22:12:56 -0700
From: Don Put <dput at csulb.edu>
Subject: js

Joel Birkeland writes:

>If Jack Schmidling did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.

Actually, it's JACK SCHMIDLING(tm).

don
dput at csulb.edu

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Date: Thu, 14 Apr 94 00:10:22 EDT
From: katanka at aol.com
Subject: Dragon's Rest Ale Recipe

Here's an excellent recipe I just finished.  I have named it Dragon's Rest
Ale because after two bottles it was time to take a nap.  Gave me a great
buzz (a gentle hummmmm really)(Did I hear Brahms?)

Dragon's Rest Ale
By Sam Klinkhoff, Katanka at aol.com

Ingredients
	YEAST STARTER/BOTTLING PRIMER
		3 Cups	Water
		1 Cup	DME (any kind)
	WORT
		3 Lbs.		Laaglander Amber DME
		3 Lbs.		Laaglander Light DME
		2 Lbs.		100% Pure Barley Malt Syrup
		4 Tbsp.		Ground Cardamom
		3 Oz.		Fuggles Hops 4.1% Alpha (boiling)
		1 Oz.		Kent-Golding Hops 5.0% Alpha (finishing)
		1 tsp.		Irish Moss
		1 Pkg.		Wyeast #1028 London Ale
	
		
Prepare yeast according to Pkg.  Then make starter from ingredients listed
boil 10 mins.  Sanitize a Qt. beer bottle and pour starter into bottle.  Cool
to pitching temperature and add yeast from pkg.  Fit with fermentation lock.
Ferment.  Be ready to pitch into wort by high krausen (foamyness) (18-24 hrs)

Add extracts and barley syrup to 1 gallon cold water.  Bring to boil.  Add
boiling hops and 3 Tblsp. of the Cardamom, boil one hour.  10 minutes to end
of boil add 1/2 oz. of the finishing hops, irish moss and the rest of the
cardamom.  3 minutes to end of boil add 1/2 oz. of the finishing hops. 
Sparge through cheesecloth into 4 gallons very cold water in primary
fermenter.  Cool and pitch starter.  Agitate wort well (stir)

Boil primer ingredients 10 minutes.  Cool.  Add to beer and bottle.

Barley Malt Syrup was purchased at a farmers market bulk store. The label
reads. "100% Pure Barley Malt Syrup" and tastes like table molasses but with
the malt flavor.  Must be a stage before it becomes extract because it
doesn't have that bitter edge.

OG: 1.060
FG: 1.028
Alch: 4.1% (by volume)

Enjoy

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Date: Wed, 13 Apr 94 19:55:43 EDT
From: geren1 at aol.com
Subject: Address change

Please send future issues to:

Geren_Smith at OakQM3.sps.mot.com


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Date: Thu, 14 Apr 94 07:55:13 EDT
From: djfitzg at VNET.IBM.COM
Subject: CELIS WHITE CLONE

greetings hbd,
               Does anyone out there have an extract(no flames please) or
partial mash recipe to clone celis white? I would be interested in giving this
a try very soon. please respond via e-mail djfitzg at vnet.ibm.com

thanks in advance,
dan fitzgerald.

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Date: Thu, 14 Apr 94 8:04:23 EDT
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: Re: 3 hr boils

> >3 hours should be the longest you'd boil, because at that point, the
> >hot break starts to break back down into soluble protein.
> 
> I've never heard this.  Do you have references?  I'd like to read a bit about
> this for curiosity sake.  My BW had an 8 hour boil and is sparkling clear,
> FWIW.

"Principles of Brewing Science" by George Fix, pp 120f say:

   "All of the reactions in the system cited above [phenol-protein
   reactions] occur during the kettle boil, with heat coagulation being
   a strong influence.  For standard boiling temperature (100^C), the
   precipitate increases sharply during the first hour, and often
   continues to rise (though at a diminishing rate) for 1 1/2 to 2
   hours.  Excessive boil times (3 hours or more) can lead to a
   redissolving of the precipitate."

- --
Jim Grady             
grady at hp-mpg.an.hp.com

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Date: 14 Apr 94 07:42:00 EST
From: "Anderso_A" <Anderso_A at hq.navsea.navy.mil>
Subject: Wyeast 1056 and PET bottles

Message Creation Date was at 14-APR-1994 07:42:00
      
          Greetings,
               I just thought I'd share a couple of observations based
          upon some recent HBD threads.

          1.  Wyeast 1056 - I've seen several people disparage the lag
          times they had with Wyeast 1056.  I brewed a Brown Ale last
          night (OG 1.058) and pitched my yeast at 11 PM.  When I got
          up at 6 AM I already had a kreusen head an inch thick in my
          carboy and I was getting fairly frequent bubbles through my
          3/8" blow-off hose.  The key with this yeast, as with all
          yeasts, is to pitch a large and healthy quantity of yeast. 
          I pitched 1.5 quarts which I had built up over a period of a
          week.

          2.  PET bottles for beer - Being the lawless individual that
          I am :-), I wanted to bring my homebrew into Baseball games
          as well as concerts this summer.  But "No alcohol" is
          usually the rule & definitely "No glass".  A couple of
          months ago I brewed up a test batch of beer to test the
          concept of bottling in plastic 1 and 2 liter bottles.  Then,
          my porters would simply be "Coke".  I also bottled in glass
          to run a control on the experiment.  I had several BJCP
          friends evaluate the beer 1.5 months after bottling in a
          side-by-side test between glass & plastic.  The beer was an
          Americanized British IPA.  That is, it was highly highly
          hopped (60 IBU) and high attenuation (Wyeast 1968) with
          artificially hardened water, and in 2ndary fermentation it
          was dry-hopped with Cascade.
             We were unanimous in our evaluations.  The glass-bottled
          beer had an intense hop aroma.  The flavor was clean and
          fresh.  The hop bitterness is evident throughout the taste
          and it leads to a finish which basically truncates your
          taste-buds.  It is a dry & clean finish.  You really end
          up more thirsty than before you swallowed the beer.  The
          beer seems to be over-hopped, but it's a taste you can
          quickly grow to like.
               Then we tried the PET, plastic, bottled version of the
          same beer.  A large portion of the hop aroma had dissipated.
          We had to assume it had leached out through the
          gas-permeable walls of the bottle.  The flavor was oxidized;
          - it had a muddy texture with no clean taste at all.  I
          was rather disappointed.
               As a BJCP participant, I'd give the glass version a 33,
          while the plastic version would have received a 22 and lots
          of tactful :-) comments on how to improve the beer.
               Oh well, I guess when I go to Camden Yards to watch the
          Orioles this summer, I'll have to just plan to visit the 3
          brew-pubs around the stadium as opposed to smuggling in my
          own beer.  The trials and tribulations of a beer geek ...

          Cheers,
          Andy A


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Date: Thu, 14 Apr 94 08:23:14 EDT
From: sims at scra.org (Jim Sims)
Subject: priming questions for high gravity brews

 After a friend supplied me with a botlle of Borgetto's "Chaucer's
Mead" (std disc - just a _satisfied_ customer), I was inspired to try
to brew a very sweet mead.

 I posted here and got some good answers on creating a "sweet ambrosia
of the gods" style mead, and it's been fermenting away for about 2
months now.

 In remarkable timeing, I see the questions about priming BarleyWine
on HBD (re: high gravity, autolysis,yeast, etc) and I think I recall
something _somewhere_ saying you should NOT prime meads that start
with O.G. above 1.100 (i assume due to residual sugar and remote
possiblilty of in-botlle ferment starting).

 The mead I have started off-the-scale for O.G> - after a coupla weeks
it was 1.060, now down to about 1.024 - there are no visible signs of
fermentation (havent been for quite a few weeks). Should I continue to
wait till several gravity reading a week apart stay the same, or is
there a better way to determine when to bottle?

 I orefer sparkling meads - Is there good reason _NOT_ to prime this
batch when bottling? Given that I expect yeast death due to alcohol
poisoning is the only reason this ferment will stop (12 lbs honey in
2.5 gallons water, using Prix de Mousse yeast), is ther any yeast that
would be suitable for priming, anyway? Or would I be stuck
force-carbonating? As per the HG 18-year barleywine, shoudl I filter
all the spent yeast out before bottling, and re-introduce some yeast
(what kind????) and priming sugar before bottling?  

 [i dont have a counterpressure filler, so how would I force carbonate
 bottles, anyway?]

email to me [sims at scra.org], i'll summarize to the list(s)...

tia,
jim

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Date: Thu, 14 Apr 94 08:33:27 EDT
From: btalk at aol.com
Subject: doppelbock; weisse

My latest prize winning doppelbock will be ready to bottle in a couple weeks.
I've always just primed w/cornsugar. So far half way thru lagering, it looks
as if more yeast than I recall from before has settled out. Should I repitch
when bottling? or would I be better off force carbonating and counter
pressure botling for contests ( whats the best way to bottle clearly this
way)? Beer on tap around my house doesn't seem to last as long as bottled- I
can hide some bottles and forget about em for a while;)
On another subject, I just tasted my first Berliner Weisse and am looking for
advice on brewing this style. The lactic character part is what has me
wondering.  Should I dose w/ lactic acid (if I can find some) or is there a
way with a lactobacillus culture that is readily obtainable? I recall a
recent post regarding yogurt cultures.
Any thoughts on this one?
regards, Bob Talkiewicz, Binghamton, NY<btalk at aol.com>

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Date: Thu, 14 Apr 94 07:49 CDT
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: pH of Sparge Water

 
 >From: Robert Schultz <Robert.Schultz at usask.ca>
 
 >I have recently read a few things about the importance of lowering
  the ph of the sparge water to that of the mash.  Anyone out there
  have any specifics on the effects of doing/not doing this?
 
 We are eagerly awaiting for KB to post the effects of such things from his 
 vast experience with wildly varying water supplies (or was it widely varying 
 extract yields)  but until then, I would suggest that you ignore everything 
 you have read and make a batch using the water as is and then decide if you 
 need to do anything the NEXT time.
 
 >What does one normally use to lower the ph -- gypsum, lactic acid?
 
 Crushed malt works very well.
 
 >My tap water has a ph of about 8.5.
 
 Mine too but by the time the mash gets through buffering it, the pH of the 
 wort is just fine.
 
 It depends on what is causing the "high" pH but throwing a lot of gunk in to 
 get it down when it may not be necessary is not the way to go about it.
 
 It's best to monitor the mash and wort pH before you do anything to the 
 water.
 
 Don't be surprised if you get a few other opinions on the subject but you 
 will learn more trying my way.
 
 js
 
 
 

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Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 21:56:36 EDT
From: Bob Bessette <bessette at uicc.com>
Subject: Cost results and Cooler question...

 I just want to thank everyone for their replies to my question concerning 
the costs of all-grain vs extract brewing. The concensus was that all-grain is 
much less expensive ranging from under $5 on up to $17 to do a 5 gallon batch.
The sub-$5 extreme was almost unfathomable to me but I had more than one 
response from these frugal brewers. And there were many responses in the $10
range. So, as you could possibly imagine, I am very motivated about the move 
to all-grain after reading these cost analyses. Believe me, economics is not
my only concern when it comes to moving to all-grain. I certainly realize that
it will also broaden my creativity and the scope of my brewing. But, as I 
mentioned before, this will help me considerably with my wife when I mention
to her the cost of the equipment that will be needed for all-grain.

 So this leads me to an equipment question. I do know a little about all-grain 
since I have viewed an all-grain session firsthand. My brewing friend used a
plastic pail, surrounded by insulated material, inside a cardboard box for his 
mashing vessel. I thought it would be a little easier to purchase a cooler. I 
should also mention that I plan on doing single-step infusion mashes at least 
at first. The cooler will only be used for mashing and then I plan on sparging 
using a Phil's lautertun setup. I saw a 48 quart Coleman Polylite cooler today 
at Walmart for $17.46. The only thing is it is rectangular. Anywhere I've read 
about coolers they mention a circular cooler for mashing. The only thing 
Walmart had was a 2-gallon circular cooler. I would like to use the 48 qt 
rectangular type. Will there be a problem with that? I would love to hear from 
anyone who uses a rectangular cooler for mashing. By the way, it does have a 
drain hole which I could use to extract liquid to test for starch conversion.
This will be the only equipment question I will ask for now but I will be 
posting more equipment questions in the future. I want to pick up each item 
one at a time. I know there are others out there who are in my same boat and 
we are all trying to read as much as we can before we start making the 
all-grain investment. Thanks so much for all of your help and I look forward 
to your advice. 

Bob Bessette
Systems Analyst
Unitrode Integrated Circuits
Merrimack, NH

P.S. Thanks to my fellow N.H. brewers and members of the Brew Free or Die Club 
     for the invitation to the all-grain class but I have a wedding to attend
     on that Saturday. Please let me know if there will be another one in the
     near future.

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 21:56:36 EDT
From: Bob Bessette <bessette at uicc.com>
Subject: Cost results and Cooler question...

 I just want to thank everyone for their replies to my question concerning 
the costs of all-grain vs extract brewing. The concensus was that all-grain is 
much less expensive ranging from under $5 on up to $17 to do a 5 gallon batch.
The sub-$5 extreme was almost unfathomable to me but I had more than one 
response from these frugal brewers. And there were many responses in the $10
range. So, as you could possibly imagine, I am very motivated about the move 
to all-grain after reading these cost analyses. Believe me, economics is not
my only concern when it comes to moving to all-grain. I certainly realize that
it will also broaden my creativity and the scope of my brewing. But, as I 
mentioned before, this will help me considerably with my wife when I mention
to her the cost of the equipment that will be needed for all-grain.

 So this leads me to an equipment question. I do know a little about all-grain 
since I have viewed an all-grain session firsthand. My brewing friend used a
plastic pail, surrounded by insulated material, inside a cardboard box for his 
mashing vessel. I thought it would be a little easier to purchase a cooler. I 
should also mention that I plan on doing single-step infusion mashes at least 
at first. The cooler will only be used for mashing and then I plan on sparging 
using a Phil's lautertun setup. I saw a 48 quart Coleman Polylite cooler today 
at Walmart for $17.46. The only thing is it is rectangular. Anywhere I've read 
about coolers they mention a circular cooler for mashing. The only thing 
Walmart had was a 2-gallon circular cooler. I would like to use the 48 qt 
rectangular type. Will there be a problem with that? I would love to hear from 
anyone who uses a rectangular cooler for mashing. By the way, it does have a 
drain hole which I could use to extract liquid to test for starch conversion.
This will be the only equipment question I will ask for now but I will be 
posting more equipment questions in the future. I want to pick up each item 
one at a time. I know there are others out there who are in my same boat and 
we are all trying to read as much as we can before we start making the 
all-grain investment. Thanks so much for all of your help and I look forward 
to your advice. 

Bob Bessette
Systems Analyst
Unitrode Integrated Circuits
Merrimack, NH

P.S. Thanks to my fellow N.H. brewers and members of the Brew Free or Die Club 
     for the invitation to the all-grain class but I have a wedding to attend
     on that Saturday. Please let me know if there will be another one in the
     near future.

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 08:57:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: Rich Larsen <richl at access1.speedway.net>
Subject: Beginners Recipe

In HBD 1397 Al Writes :
 
>....I think that
>a basic 6 pounds of hopped amber extract, boiled 1 hour in a gallon of
>water, chilled in a sink full of ice, aeratied while adding to 4.25
>gallons of pre-boiled cooled water,....
 
I don't feel it is wise to boil such a high gravity solution (I calculate
it to be over 1.200) You won't get a proper hot break and caramelization
of the wort is very likely to occur.  Probably better would be to boil
at least 2.5 gallons water, dissolve the extract, boil one hour, add one
ounce of fresh hops in the last 10 minutes to get some hop aroma, chill
as above, aerate well, and top off to 5 gallons in the fermenter with
pre-boiled chilled water.
 

=> Rich

Rich Larsen (708) 388-3514
The Blind Dog Brewery "HomeBrewPub", Midlothian, IL
(Not a commercial establishment)

    "I never drink... Wine."   Bela Lugosi as Dracula



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Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 07:11:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: gummitch at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Well, I tried...

I tried to mail this directly to Dave Burns, but it bounced.

He wrote:
> 
> > I was reading the latest copy of Zymurgy and there was a big article
> > on using sugar in brewing.  Yes sugar.  It said that homebrewers are 
> > the only ones that insist on using corn sugar when priming and suggests
> > trying cane sugar or brown sugar when bottling an ale.  It fails to 
> > mention how much sugar to use.  The article also describes various types
> > of sugars (molasses,Lactose,Invert,Candi,Turbinado etc..) that can be used
> > in brewing.  The only guidelines mentioned were to keep sugar adjuncts
> > below 20-30% depending on the gravity of the beer (higher gravity can
> > take a higher % of sugar).  
> >     My question is, how much would various priming sugars affect the flavor
> > of the beer?  It is usually less than a cup of sugar.  Also does anyone have
> > an idea on amounts of brown sugar to use for priming (more, less?)
> > 
> 
> 
> Gee, I thought that particular article was pure genius!
> 
> The article fails to mention how much sugar to use because it has been
> the author's (really handsome fellow, by the way) experience that there
> are a lot of variables and that homebrewers have to work out for
> themselves what works best for them.
> 
> One of the variables is actual volume at bottling.  Another is
> fermentation -- particularly the strain of yeast.  Yet another is the
> style of beer.  And still another is the drinker/brewer's preference.  I
> had been told that one needed to use less cane sugar than corn sugar for
> bottling, but that has not been my own experience.  
> 
> The use of brown sugar could have a decided affect on the flavor on the
> finished beer.  You should see some information on that in the article
> -- also Hind's wisdom that the way to learn about those flavors is to
> brew and use the sugar.
> 
> --Jeff
> 
> 


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Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 07:29:02 +0900
From: bjones at novax.llnl.gov (Bob Jones)
Subject: BW yeast removal

I'll comment on Jim Busch's statement regarding the importance of BW ferment
yeast removal.

I think yeast autolysis may play an important role in the character of an
aged BW. In the production of a world class Champagne the yeast is allowed
to remain in the bottle for an extended period of time. This age/autolysis
of the yeast is what _makes_ those complex flavors. To add fuel to the fire,
I read about a blind tasting where bleach was added to a sample of beer. The
bleach tainted beer scored higher than the ones without bleach. The
reasoning given by the judges was that the doctored sample had a more
complex character. They of course didn't know the bleach was in the sample.
The bleach was also at the threshhold level. I don't expect all of you to go
out and start adding bleach to that fine beer you just brewed, but it does
point out the difficulty in defining exactly whats good and bad in a
finished beer. Depth of flavors and complexity are usually the
distinquishing element in a world class Barley Wine. Here is hoping you all
brew one soon and have me taste it for positive conformation.

One additional note, IBU calcs just plain don't work when it comes to
hopping a BW. You really got to fly by the seat of your pants. Brew one
first and then on your next attempt add more according to the art/creative
side of you brain.

Cheers,

Bob Jones
bjones at novax.llnl.gov



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Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 10:46:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: EM as hop back/cobras/Micah & Lipids/misc

> Subject: Does RIMS over-clarify?
> 
> I just read Dave Miller's article in the latest issue of Brewing Techniques,
> and an interesting issue came up.  A writer was disputing the practice of
> wort recirculation for clarification because doing so could "filter out" most
> of the lipids, which yeast use in performing their yeastly duties.  A
> scarcity of lipids can contribute to "long lag times, slow fermentations, and
> other symptoms of poor yeast nutrition."  

This *had* to be from Micah Millspaw or Bob Jones, right??? Bob?????

> Subject: Secondary Problems
> 
 Wyeast 1098 British is a yeast I do not think I will ever use again.  Took for
 ever to get it out of suspension and then when I moved the carboy it went right
> back into suspension and had to sit for another 2 days before it cleared well 
> enough to bottle (and I was very carefull when moving the carboy not to shake
> it up). 

It just goes to show that yeast strains are very differenet animals, and 
you need to choose your pets accordingly, and treat them right.  This strain
is used in open fermenters in its home country, and is skimmed from the 
top before being cask conditioned with isinglass.  Try the London strain, 
it can make some real good British ales. 

I wrote:
> Subject: Re: Importance of BW ferment yeast removal
> 
> Because high alcohol ferments are very hard on yeast cells.  Fermentation
> yeast in general is not good to have on your finished beer.  In most cases,
> it is not of significance.  

After I wrote this, it occurred to me that another thing that ferment yeast
displays is numerous scar tissues.  Each bud that forms as the mother yeast
gives birth, results in a scar on the mother.  At the end of ferments, you
can have a lot of scarred cells.  Whether this matters, Ill have to read up
on.

> to compromise here on temp for pretty good luck at 41-43 degf. I hope you
> aren't using one of those silly cobra head taps. They are about useless for
> despensing beer except in an emergency. They don't have the tappered opening
> that really is needed to properly dispense beer. 

Bob, they arent totally useless!  I have to use them after all of my dispensing
taps are in use.  Agreed, you cant get the same pressure/carbonation as 
with a good tap, but you can get by with them.  Just use a *real* big glass,
and enjoy the big head!

> within 2 or 3 hours after pitching.  I can ferment a 1060 wort down to
> 1020 in 3 or 4 days with ale yeast.  

Dion, I sure hope it doesnt *stay* at 1.020!  Thats a pretty high FG.  Mine
goes from 1.055 to 1.010/1.012 in 4 days, but its no RIMS, and the yeast slurry 
is impressive.

> By the way, the Easymasher (TM) again failed miserably for filtering
> my chilled wort - it may have been because of all the break, but
> I think that advirtising the product as a hop filter is ah, ...
> It has worked for exactly one out of the 10 or so batches I've tried it
> for, and even that one I had to leave draining overnight.

Ulick, do you use whole hops?  I would think that even the EM would work
if you are using whole hops.

Good brewing,

Jim Busch

DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!

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Date: Thu, 14 Apr 94 10:46:01 EDT
From: west at bose.com (Jim West)
Subject: cost of extract brews

As a relative newcomer to the homebrew arena (1 brown ale, 1 old ale, and 2
Bavarian weizens) I am thoroughly pleased with the outcome of my extract labors.
I use whole loose hops, liquid yeasts (although without a starter - I think with
all the traffic I've seen about them I'll start using one), and bottled water 
(my tap water is disgusting).  As far as the extracts go, they haven't been the
cheapest, but due to my lack of experience I don't know if they are the best.
Anyhow, at roughly $30 a 5 gallon batch, $15 for a case of beer is a bargain
to me compared to anything in the store I'll consider drinking.  Is the $15-20
savings of going to all grain worth 2-3 hours of my meager spare time? I don't
think so, but your milage may vary.

Well, just my $0.02 worth.  To each his own I say, and no matter how you brew
your beer it's got to be better than that budmilloor swill that Big Brew thinks
we want to drink.

Cheers.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1399, 04/15/94