FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  re: Barleywine yeast ("Jack D. Hill")
  Beginners Strange Brews/spices again (Jeff Benjamin)
   (P Brooks)
  cane sugar use (Mark Bellefeuille)
  cider/water/yeast/maltex (Mike_Christy_at_mozartpo)
  basics/white sauce ("Daniel F McConnell")
  I vote *NO*! Do not split HBD (Bob Ambrose)
  Wyeast 1338 (Scotch Ale) (Mark Worwetz)
  Honey / Dry Yeast / Strange Ingredients / Split the HBD? (erict)
  UNS vs ASTM brass alloys ("Dave Suurballe")
  Wheat ferment temp (kesicki)
  Too long in secondary to bottle? (pqmertz)
  help: problem with first try at mead (Thomas A. Nawara)
  Admission Of A Breach Of De ("Mark Fredrickson")
  Smaller batches (Richard Nantel)
  Re: #2(2) Homebrew Digest #13... (kaz2)
  Green Sanitizers? (Gary Hawkins)
  Priming sugar question (David Draper)
  Re: Hot Liquor Tank ("Rick Violet")
  Thwaite's bitter and Copper Sugar? (Al Gaspar)
  Local Pub wants my beer. (braddw)
  switching a pin-lock keg to ball-lock (06-May-1994 0912 -0400)
  Calories, Carbos and beer (Stephen C. Anthony)
  RE: Beer or Bread? (Bill Ridgely FTS 402-1521)
  Re:Cider dump (Mike_Christy_at_mozartpo)
  thanks to all, carbonates (/R=HERLVX/R=AM/U=KLIGERMAN/FFN=KLIGERMAN/)
  Tripple Bock (tim norris)
  JS is wrong!, Split the HBD, and oh yeah Extraction rates ("KEVIN CAVANAUGH")
  Wort Chiller conservation? Why not save it! Tabernash Does! (Brian J Walter (Brewing Chemist))
  Experimenting Rookie (richard bitter)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date:     Thu, 5 May 94 11:09:42 EDT
From: "Jack D. Hill" <jdhill at BBN.COM>
Subject:  re: Barleywine yeast


	I just bottled a barleywine that I'm very happy with. It fermented 3
months before bottling and is drinkable now but I'm not going to touch it
before Thanksgiving and even then I'll be stingy with it.
	I used 15 lbs. of Breiss 2 row grain with a single infusion mash. While
boiling the wort, I added one 3.3 can of amber extract (I don't remember the
brand). I also added 1 lb. of sucanet sugar. I used 2.5 oz of Kent Goldings for
bittering and 1.5 oz. for finishing. After a 1.5 hour boil, I ended up with 4
gallons of wort.
	The starting gravity was over 1.120 - my hydrometer was pinned to its
highest mark. I used Wyeast 1028, London Ale yeast, that I got from the Ipswich
brewery in Massachusetts. After 2 weeks in the primary, the gravity had gone
down to 1.030. I transferred to the secondary and added a champagne yeast. I 
was able to get the gravity down to 1.024 after 2.5 months. I suspect I 
would have gotten more if I had aerated the wort a little more before pitching. 
What surprised me though was how well the London Ale yeast did on its own. This 
beer has a taste very similar to a young, raw Thomas Hardy. I estimate that the 
beer has 12-13% alcohol.

Jack Hill

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Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 08:21:28 -0700
From: Richard B. Webb <rbw1271 at appenine.ca.boeing.com>

Subject: Mashing Breakfast Cereal

John Palmer asks about brewing with breakfast cereals. Well if that don't
beat all. I have something of a reputation of brewing with unusual
additives, but breakfast cereals never really entered my mind. I'd be
curious to hear the results. I think that some of the more sugary cereals
would go straight to alcohol, while brands like Frankenberry or Count
Chocula would make some really cool monster ales...

In my own experience, I have made beer with the following:
Cherry Syrup like that used at espresso bars (hey, I live near Seattle)
Rather intense, cloying sweetness with a rather nasty chemical aftertaste.
The preservative used really inhibited the yeast for a long time, but the
color is great.

Pumpkin: Twice chopped up, pureed and added to the kettle, and once chopped,
boiled, and added to the mash. The first method worked best, especially with
the Wyeast wheat ale yeast. The mash method left the beer really cloudy...

Cherry Life Savers. Not enough added to make any sort of taste difference.

Chili Peppers. Well, that's not so unusual anymore, seeing as how there
are many competitions that now have a special category for this type.

Liquid Smoke. Added too much, so it was really overwhelming for a while,
but has mellowed out quite a bit. 'Won' the Brews Brothers Porter
competition, but they felt that it was out of style...

Spruce Essence/Extract. My biggest failure. Again, I used too much of
it, and it wound up tasting like something you rub on your chest
to fight a cold.

Fruits and berries, in beers and meads too numerous to mention.
Oh yeah, that batch made from nothing but a gallon of maple
syrup. Treated it just like a gallon of honey in a mead.
Definitely an acquired taste... Smokey sweet, 10% alcohol,
a real conversation starter... or stopper...

And I found a honeybee in the trub at the bottom of my kettle
after boiling one day. She didn't look really happy about
being part of a brewing experiment either. At least that
wasn't an intentional addition... :-|

Any other unusual brewing ingredients out there?
Other than that 'special bittering herb' that people keep
talking about. How does that stuff turn out anyway?

Rich Webb

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From: ulick at ulix.cheg.nd.edu

	id m0pz5Za-0006LXC; Thu, 5 May 94 10:42 EST
Message-Id: <m0pz5Za-0006LXC at ulix>
Date: Thu, 5 May 94 10:42 EST
From: ulick at ulix.cheg.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford)
To: homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Subject: trolling ground, big beers, water revisited

I have to agree with nearly everything said by Jim Robinson about the nature
of hbd to do with the tone.  I was highly amused a few months ago when
some new brewer who had been receiving the digest for 3 days criticized
the tone.  But what has been more utterly ridiculous of late has been the
number of responses to the idiotic suggestion to split the digest.  This looks
like fertile trolling ground ... Budweiser is the best beer in the world.
If it weren't why is the most popular?  Why are trendy Europeans drinking
it in greater and greater quantities?  And rice makes it so great.  It 
decreases the colour and gives it less aftertaste.  And the second best beer
is Corona ...

I agree with some of what Kevin Pratt says about beers becoming a little
on the big side.  I was in Goose Island recently and was quite impessed that
they were selling many weak session beers.  It makes economic sense, and I
generally prefer to drink weaker beers when I'm on the piss.  This cannot 
be said of other brewpubs I've been in that have all beers over 5% ABV.  It
seems to be difficult to do well in the the nationals with weaker beers, and
this could be due to the split judging times having less effect on big beers
than on weaker ones (as well as the anti-Bud bias of the judges).  But then
a friend of mine believes that many people enter a newer version of their 
beer in the finals if they make it.  Comments?

Water, water, everywhere but not a drop to drink.  A popular subject of 
late (but considering it is the major ingredient).  Daren Wood had a softener
question.  Generally, you do not want softened water.  Softeners replace
calcium and magnesium ions with sodium and above a certain level sodium
has deleterious flavour propensities while calcium does not.  Calcium is
of concern to all-grainers as it may indicate a temporarily hard water that
needs treatment.  Thew general rule of thumb about water usage is that if 
your water is fit to drink, it is fit to brew with.  Iron could be a problem
with some ground waters, but I imagine that there are ways to remove it short
of softening.  Water treatment facilites use either chlorine or sulphur
dioxide or aerate and precipitate.  One or other of these methods may be
applicable to a homebrewer.  Anyone got a method?
__________________________________________________________________________
 'Heineken!?! ... F#$% that s at &* ...  | Ulick Stafford, Dept of Chem. Eng.  
    Pabst Blue Ribbon!'               | Notre Dame IN 46556
                                      |    ulick at darwin.cc.nd.edu   


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Date: Thu, 5 May 94 10:10:11 MDT
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Beginners Strange Brews/spices again

Doug Lukasik <LUKASIK_D at sunybroome.edu> writes:

> To suggest that new brewers stick to the basics because the art of
> brewing is so complicated is like suggesting that when learning to cook
> we should stick to boiling hotdogs because the use of spices is to
> tricky.  Playing with recipes and trying out new avenues is part of what
> teaches a new brewer how to brew better beer.

Agreed; however, beginning cooks usually don't attempt making chocolate
souffles or pheasant in aspic.  If they did, it might often end up a
failure and cause unnecessary discouragement.  They usually learn basic
kitchen techniques and familiarize themselves with their ingredients
before attempting such complex recipes.  This doesn't mean a beginning
cook can't make a wonderful meal, though.  Likewise, beginning brewers
can try numerous styles of beer and adjust according to taste without
going overboard.

I guess what sparked my comment was seeing questions on the net like "My
second batch was a chocolate-honey-spice barleywine stout with Belgian
yeast, and it tastes funny.  What did I do wrong?"  It can be difficult
for even an experienced brewer to diagnose problems for a beer like
that.  (But then again, if it turns out okay, what a beer!)

Back on the subject of spices, Spencer Thomas suggests soaking the spices
in vodka for a week and adding the liquor at bottling time.  My perferred
method is to simmer the spices in a quart of water for 30-45 minutes and
then add the whole mess to the primary fermenter.  I've had excellent
results this way.

- --
Jeff Benjamin                               benji at fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."
					    - T.S. Eliot

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Date: Thu, 05 May 94 09:13:10 -0800 (PST)
From: P Brooks <pbrooks at rig.rain.com>
Subject: 

In HBD #1415 Jeff Benjamin is overseen to querry:

> On a related note, I have noticed lately that a lot of new brewers are
> making unusual beers in their first few batches -- using honey, spices,
> superstrong beers, etc.  Now, I'll admit I did the same thing; one of 
my
[snip]
> All this info is confusing enought without adding any complexity.  This
> is not meant to be a flame (a sure sign I'll get torched :-), but I'm
> curious as to everyone's motive (both beginner and expert) for making
> strange brews.

I'll confess to some of the same - my third beer was an attempt at an 
Imperial Russian Stout - sort of ;-).  Anyway, at least for the beginners, 
I think the answer may be ignorance.  No I don't mean the 'stupid' kind - 
just simply the fact that brewers without a lot of experience don't know 
that what they're trying to do may be more complex than they think.

As a somewhat more experienced brewer, I enjoy the strange brews 
occasionally as a way to try and improve on something I've tried/tasted 
elsewhere - trying to rectify the shortcomings (IMHO) of someone else's 
brew.

ciao,
pb
- --
pbrooks at rig.rain.com  --- Renaissance Information Group
"A 16th Century Paradigm for using 21st Century Technology"

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Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 09:36:45 -0700
From: Mark Bellefeuille <mcb at mcdpxs.phx.mcd.mot.com>
Subject: cane sugar use

Wesman,
You said in the hbd:

>Last night I cracked open a bottle of East Kent Goldings ale I
>primed with cane sugar.

Please let us know how much you were priming and how much you used.
Thanks,
mark

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark C. Bellefeuille                     INTERNET: mcb at phx.mcd.mot.com

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Date: Thu, 05 May 94 12:50:25 EST
From: Mike_Christy_at_mozartpo at ccmailpc.ctron.com
Subject: cider/water/yeast/maltex




Bigs (Rochester,NY)   writes:

>Chances are, you will soon have a big mess on your hands.  Unless you used
>champagne corks and wire hoods to keep them on,  your corks will soon pop out
>of the bottle and spill your precious drink.  I believe one of the reasons for

Just my personal experience, but several of us hard core 'ciderers' have been 
bottling hard cider for years in champagne bottles with regular corks and no 
bad experiences.It could be that we store in 55 degree cellars with no 
primings. Also, we let the fermentaion go naturally with wild apple yeast. 
The result is a lightly carbed wine. We store on the side. Just a reference 
point. 

Darren writes:

>I'd like to know if there's been a consensus made regarding brewing
>using soft or hard water.  Which will provide the best product?  Does it
>make sense to use bottled water if your tap water seems fine?  Should I cart

I stated in a recent post to be careful with bottled water, I thought is was 
getting water out of the side of a mountian, but it ended up with the 
characteristics of tap water... soft and alkaline, not that mtn. h2o cant be 
that. I perfer hard and slightly acidic for my brews, plus Im having seconds 
thoughts about even showering in our water....

Jim writes:

> I suspect it does have something to do with the yeast.  I was going to
>post, asking about the flocculation characteristics of this yeast.  After

Jim could you explain flocculation and how it affects our beers? Also, Ive 
heard the term fusal etoh used as well,  am I understanding that this is 
generated at high ferments and is what gives you headaches?

Palmer.John writes:

>Subject: Mashing Breakfast Cereal

>Am I out of my mind?! Well, popular opinion aside, I have been wondering about
>this. Mashing breakfast cereal that is. So far my candidates are Grape Nuts,

Theres a hot cerial called Maltex,  its like eating a bowl of brew for 
breakfast! One of the main ingrediants is malt extract.  It even gets "happy" 
when you bring it to a boil. It brings that ole familiar aroma to the kitchen
first thing in the morn'. Ill bet you could brew with it.

Also, have you noticed our favorite brewing lawyer no longer states 4 years 
running?

score b's:2 d's:0

 - mike


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Date: 5 May 1994 13:07:45 -0400
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel.F.McConnell at med.umich.edu>
Subject: basics/white sauce

Subject:  basics/white sauce

Doug Lukasik <LUKASIK_D at sunybroome.edu> writes:

>To suggest that new brewers stick to the basics because the art of brewing is
>so complicated is like suggesting that when learning to cook we should stick
to 
>boiling hotdogs because the use of spices is to tricky.  Playing with recipes
>and trying out new avenues is part of what teaches a new brewer how to brew 
>better beer. 

Yes, but like a Great Chef learning to cook, first he/she must master 
the art of making white sauce.  This is the foundation on which to 
build.  I suspect that given your personality (43 chickens!!!) you 
will be brewing large scale brews from grain in very short order (I 
suspect that even you may have overestimated the time it will take 
before you make the change).  

My sage-like advise to beginning grain brewers is always the same.  
Go buy a sack of pale ale malt and a pound of your favorite hops.  Now, 
go brew the SAME BEER three times.  Pale Ale is a good place to start.  
Like white sauce, it appears to be a simple, but the nuances are 
enormous.  Once you have a feel for your system then you can better 
make the small modifications.  It's a methodical, boring approach, but 
effective.

DanMcC
          (__)
          (oo)                       U
   /-------\/                    /---V
  / |     ||                    * |--|                       .
 *  ||----||
    ^^    ^^
                                                    Cow at 10,000 meters
 Cow at 1 meter.         Cow at 100 meters.      or Yeast at 0.001 meter.





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Date: Thu, 05 May 1994 14:21:08 -0400
From: ambroser at apollo.dml.georgetown.edu (Bob Ambrose)
Subject: I vote *NO*! Do not split HBD

To avoid wasting time I'll cut to the chase. Leave the HBD as it is. Splitting
it will make things worse. From a spectator. I don't have the time/money/space
to brew my own homebrew. I'll let the microbrewers (NOT SA) do it for me!

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Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 13:56:22 -0600 (MDT)
From: Mark_Worwetz at Novell.COM (Mark Worwetz)
Subject: Wyeast 1338 (Scotch Ale)

Hey all from Zion!

I have been reading the recent thread on Scotch Ale yeast with great
interest.  I too have made a batch of strong Scotch Ale with this
stuff (OG = 1.082, FG = 1.018, 14 HBU) and it is definitely one of the
best brews I have ever tasted.  It is very similar to MacAndrews in flavor,
but has quite a kick.  My observations about this brew were as follows:

 - Primary ferment was 10 days, pretty cloudy at racking.
 - Secondary ferment went 14 days.  I took a long time because the beer
started clearing from the top and sloooowly worked its way down to the
trub in the carboy.
 - It was crystal clear at bottling, with no Irish Moss used in the wort.

After two weeks, carbonation was still very low and the beer was sweet.
After 6 weeks, carbonation is perfect, as is the flavor balance.
Everything I bottled in glass bottles tastes great.  I bottled a couple
of the 1L plastic soda bottles and they have the "metallic" taste that
I've been reading about.  I assumed it got oxidized through the bottle.

I have gotten a few strong buzzes from this stuff and have had one very
silly dinner party, but no one ever complained about any headache.
Perhaps the extra time in the secondary allowed the yeast to settle
out more?

I agree that the taste peaks at about two months, and goes a little drier
at about 3 months.
*****
In regard to the Irish Moss thread, I have decided to give up after trying
2 different brews with and without it.  The non-Irish Moss beer has always
come out clearer with a more solid trub, but takes a little more time
to clear in the secondary.  I did NOT rehydrate it before use, and used
1 tsp. in 2 gallon partial boils (YES, I'M AN ADMITTED EXTRACT BREWER!!!
I CONFESS!!!  sob!)

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Worwetz

 _,_/|
 \o.O;		ACK, PHFFFT!
=(___)=     "If I could save time in a bottle,  I'd be drinking all the time!" 
   U
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 5 May 94 17:27:46 EDT
From: erict at VNET.IBM.COM
Subject: Honey / Dry Yeast / Strange Ingredients / Split the HBD?

Some random comments from the Miskatonic Zythepsary:

Guy Mason asked about using honey for priming ...  I have been using honey
in various brews both for priming and as an adjunct and have generally
been pleased with the results. As an adjunct, it really "lightens up" the
beer (in flavour and colour, definitely *not* in alcohol content!) and can
add a slight floral note that really appeals to me. For priming, I share
the common wisdom that the small amount being added (I use about 1/2 a cup
for a 23 litre batch) does not really affect the flavour of the final
product, but I do find that honey ferments out fairly quickly and
completely, and besides, I can get it for cheaper than sugar at the
organic food shop down the street (you know, the same one that sold me
the brewer's-grade catnip). I always boil the honey, of course, and this
usually produces a small amount of thick, stiff, foamlike substance that
I understand comes from extra proteins in the honey. I skim this stuff
off and discard it. Well, okay, actually I eat it -- it's delicious!
***
Bill Sutton asked about using dry yeast. I've always had excellent results
with Edme, and I notice that others have too. In fact, several recent
competition-winning recipes that I've seen published in various places
have used the stuff as well. I am intrigued by the possibilities opened up
by using liquid yeast, and I'm sure I'll take time to experiment with it
some day, but I've noticed that every issue of HBD has at least one post
that goes something along the lines of "I just pitched my Acme Brand Olde
Peculier Swedish Lambic Stout #23W517 Liquid Yeast and now I'm noticing
poor fermentation rate, noxious fumes, and alien life forms growing in the
carboy; has anybody else had this experience?" Clearly, the simple act of
using liquid yeast does not guarantee better brew ...
***
Jeff Benjamin wondered why novice homebrewers don't just do "simple stuff"
and stay away from the "complicated" recipes with spices, herbs, peanut
butter, etc. Well, gee, Jeff, speaking as a novice ... It's my homebrew,
why shouldn't I screw it up royally if I want to? I've used exotic
ingredients from coffee to single-malt scotch with results that have
varied from excellent to ... peculiar, but it's never been boring, and
isn't that really why we all brew? I use strange and weird ingredients
and methods because (a) I can, (b) I'm kinda strange and weird myself,
and (c) the absolute last thing I want is to produce is a clone of
Labatt's/Molson product (the Canadian equivalent of Budmilloors).
***
Split the HBD? Nobody wants to split it up into extract/all-grain threads,
so maybe we should split it into dry yeast/liquid ... just kidding! Don't
split it. We extract types can certainly learn from the more advanced
techniques of the all-grainers, and I daresay the oldtimers can learn a
few tricks from us rookies (bet you never thought of putting catnip in
your beer before!). There is no such thing as wasted bandwidth, only
poorly processed information: discussions of techniques that we don't use
expose us to new ideas and spark creativity; flame wars remind us that
other homebrewers are human, too; and even 25-line sigs with cutesy
sayings and cheesy ASCII graphics give us valuable clues as to the
reliability of the information they are appended to ...

Eric Tilbrook


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Date: 5 May 1994 14:52:50 -0700
From: "Dave Suurballe" <suurb at farallon.com>
Subject: UNS vs ASTM brass alloys

Some time ago somebody posted a helpful list showing the lead
content of various brass alloys.  I saved the list, but not
the name and address of the poster.  Now I have a question
for him.  Sorry, everyone.

I have just learned that the brass I use is:

ASTM B-16 Alloy 360 and
ASTM B-453 Alloy 353 or 345.

Can anyone correlate this with the brasses on the UNS list, or
at least tell me the lead content of these alloys?

Thanks,

Suurballe

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Date:     5 May 1994 18:11:52EST5EDT
From: kesicki at psc.psc.scarolina.edu
Subject:  Wheat ferment temp

Now that summer is here in Carolina, thoughts have turned to 
producing some wheat beers.  What I would like to know is:

- --At what temp *should* they be fermented for best results

- --At what temp limit *can* they be fermented (It will be *hot* here)

I would appreciate hearing from anybody with 1st-hand experience 
with high temp ferments, say around 80 degrees F or higher.

I plan on using the wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan yeast or any other 
that will give results in the Carolina heat (recommendations?).  
These will be all-grain batches, but that should not matter as far 
as ferment temp goes.

Thanks in advance,

Ed Kesicki
USC Dept of Chemistry
Columbia, SC

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Date: Wed 04 May, 1994 09:20:47PM PDT
From: pqmertz at fergus.cfa.org
Subject: Too long in secondary to bottle?

I got a late start on a Holiday Brough in December and couldn't get it
 bottled in time.  Then went on vacation in Jan, still didn't get it bottled.
  Well now it is May and I'm wondering if it is worth the effort.
  It was placed in a secondary.

Do I?
Need to add a little sugar into the carboy to see if it will still bubble?
Just go ahead and bottle normally?
Throw the stuff out and start a wheat beer?

I would like to do something this weekend.  Your past experiences
 would be great.

Thanks.

PQ Mertz



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Date: Thu, 5 May 94 18:57:24 -0500
From: Thomas A. Nawara <nirvana at death.eecs.uic.edu>
Subject: help: problem with first try at mead




hello all.


i'm getting married in 6 months, so my fiancee and i decided to brew a mead  
for our wedding.  we followed papazian's recipe for barkshack gingermead (we  
added 6 pounds of raspberries) and all seemed to be going fine until i racked  
the mead into a second fermenter.  after a few days i noticed that there was  
no activity in the 2nd fermenter (glass carboy).  i have never done this  
before so i don't know if i'm just being paranoid, but i expected some  
activity in the 2nd fermenter...
i can give more details if necessary, but could some helpful soul out there  
give a beginner some advice?

thank you.


 -tom nawara
 nirvana at death.eecs.uic.edu

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Date: 5 May 1994 18:53:16 U
From: "Mark Fredrickson" <mark_fredrickson at cpqm.saic.com>
Subject: Admission Of A Breach Of De

                      Subject:                              Time:  6:47 PM
  OFFICE MEMO         Admission Of A Breach Of Decorum      Date:  5/5/94
I just cant deal with the guilt.  I need help.  I cant go on any longer.  I
have been sitting here catching-up on my HBD reading.  I started with 1404
and just finished 1416.  Emotionally, I feel much better now.  Ethically, I
have a great weight crushing me.  I have no access to a quality, hand-crafted
liquid.  *** I'M AT THIS INSTANT DRINKING A LITE BEER FROM MILLER.***  Oh
forgive me.  I'll never do it again.  Ever.  But, it said, right on the can,
it is 'A Fine Pilsner Beer'.  I like a fine Pilsner beer.  Does that count
for anything?  It was not my fault.  My secretary forced it on me since it
was left over from a party.  Im not guilty, really, I just used a shotgun on
them.  Opps wrong story/brother/parents thing.  It also says 'specially
brewed from the finest malted barley, selected cereal grains and choicest
hops for superior taste'.  That must mean the best 2-row along with a little
crystal (or chocolate with oats for that fine stout taste) along with some of
the best Cascade hops and ...  What could be wrong with that?  It has
pictures of 2-row right on the front of the can.  HELP.  Please send excess
yeast samples via Internet soon...



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Date: 05 May 94 22:45:00 EDT
From: Richard Nantel <72704.3003 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Smaller batches

Five gallons is alot of beer. In fact, such a batch lasts me about 2 
months. Lacking storage space for more than one batch of bottled beer at a 
time, I spend those two months supping one batch while I plan the next. I'd 
like to brew more often and so have decided to try brewing all-grain 
batches smaller than the traditional 5-gallons. 

I realize some adjustments will be necessary in downsizing 5-gallon 
recipes:
1. Proportionally, the amount of bittering hops will have to be increased 
quite a bit (or I'll have to use hop extract) to counter the reduced 
extraction in the mini wort;
2. I'll have to build a smaller version of my false bucket lauter-tun to 
continue sparging through a depth of about 8 inches;
3. I'll need smaller fermenters. (I recently picked up 4, 1-gallon glass 
jugs with airlocks at a garage sale for a buck a piece.) 

I can only think of advantages to brewing smaller batches: fresher beer; 
greater variety of attempted beer styles -- a trappist ale one week, 
rauchbier the next. Why I could even lager for the first time since a 
gallon jug fits in the fridge (Brewing in the summer heat wouldn't be a 
problem). Also, the beer itself could possibly be superior due to 
proportionally greater yeast pitching rates, super fast wort cooling after 
the boil. improved aeration (shaking a gallon jug is a snap). When 
something remarkable would be brewed, these mini batches would act as 
prototypes for 5-gallon batches. Not only that, the kitchen would be 
cleaner after brewing. I'm giddy.

Any suggestions/comments/special info regarding 1- to 2-gallon all-grain 
batches?
 
Richard Nantel
Montreal Quebec Canada
email responses to rnantel at cam.org  
I'll summarize and repost.

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Date: Fri, 06 May 94 01:20:14 EDT
From: kaz2 at aol.com
Subject: Re: #2(2) Homebrew Digest #13...

Directory manager,
Please delete me form receiving updates on the Homebrewing front. I have
enjoyed the articles thus far. Thank you for your help!
Kaz2(at) AOL

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Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 00:56:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gary Hawkins <ghawkins at halcyon.com>
Subject: Green Sanitizers?



I note in a _Zymurgy_ advertisement from LD Carlson Co.
( Winter 1993, p. 95)  a set of "Environmentally
Friendly" cleansers ("Straight-A Premium Cleanser" & "One Step
Sanitizer").  While the very project of sanitizing seems to go against
that which would be "pure green" in that what we are trying to
do is rid our brewspace of micro-critters, I am curious if there
might be a less toxic method.

In terms of toxicity to the micro-community idophor is no prize
over chlorine although it is lately much touted in the Homebrew
world; and I still shudder when I read of those who are
enamored by the cleaning power of a strong TSP solution 
because they "don't even have to scrub."

Don't get me wrong: I'm no bleeding heart over the microbes that
must give their lives for a pint of homebrew, but I simply
ask: Can something be "environmentally friendly" and still do
the job?  Does anyone know the chemical make-up of these 
new products?  And since I have been unable to find a retail
outlet that carries them, has anyone tried these things? 

 ......................................................................
::   	Gary Hawkins			::	Olympia, Washington
:: 	ghawkins at halcyon.com		::	"It's the Water." 


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Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 20:10:39 +1000 (EST)
From: David Draper <ddraper at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Priming sugar question


- -- 
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper			School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University
ddraper at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au	NSW 2109 Sydney, Australia
Fax: +61-2-805-8428		Voice: +61-2-805-8347

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Date: 5 May 1994 15:09:15 -0700
From: "Rick Violet" <rick_violet at powertalk.apple.com>
Subject: Re: Hot Liquor Tank


Terri Terfinko writes:
>I have built a hot liquor tank from a keg using
>an electric water heater element mounted in the
>side about 2 inches from the bottom.  The tank
>also has a thermometer mounted half way down
>the side.  In general the tank works great, 
>except for the temperature differences between
>the top and bottom of the tank, usually 10-20
>degrees.

Maybe you could use the temperature difference to drive mixing. You might be
able to harness the convection currents by installing some sort of vertical
shaft. If the tank is cylidrical a flat plate stood vertically, up against
the heating element ( or almost touching ) and against the walls, might force
the convection currents to travel all the way to the top of the tank, and not
just spin around near the heating element. It seems to me the covection
currents must be there, they just need to be redirected so the entire tank
mixes.

Begin ASCII ART 
 
 ||            ||    ~ - fliud surface
 ||~~~~~~~~~~~~||
 ||   > >      ||    * - Heating element
 || ^ |  \/    ||
 || ^ |        ||    ^ - upward current flow
 || ^ |  \/    ||
 || ^ |        ||    < > - horizontal current flow
 || ^ |  \/    ||
 || ^ |        ||    \/ - downward current flow
 || ^ |  \/    ||
 || *  < <     ||
 \\   |        //
   =============

End ASCII ART  ( hope you see what I see )

I don't know if this idea is applicable to your situation, but if you can
scrounge up a cookie sheet or something to experiment with, you might find
that it works and no pump is required.

Good luck
 -Rick

Glug, Glug, Glug, Glug, Glug, Glug, Glug, Glug, Glug, Glug, Glug, Glug,
Glug...


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Date: Fri, 06 May 1994 07:47:00 CDT
From: Al Gaspar <gaspar at STL-17SIMA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Thwaite's bitter and Copper Sugar?


I enjoyed a bitter, when I was in England around 1986, from Thwaites in
Lancaster.  I was thinking of trying to emulate that beer and looked
it up in CAMRA's "The Real Ale Drinker's Almanac".  For ingredients it
lists "pale malt (85%), copper sugar (15%), Fuggles, East Kent
Goldings, blend of various high alpha whole hops".  I know what
everything is except the copper sugar.  I remember reading in
Papazian or Miller that it was something available only in the U.K. 
Can anyone give me a good definition of it and suggest how I might
mimic it here in the states (or tell me how to get some)?  Also, if
anyone happens to know of a recipe that emulates Thwaite's, I would
love to see it.  Thanks much.

Cheers--

Al

- -- 
Al Gaspar       <gaspar at stl-17sima.army.mil>
USAMC SIMA, ATTN:  AMXSI-TTC, 1222 Spruce St., St. Louis, MO  63103-2834
COMMERCIAL:  (314) 331-4354  AUTOVON:  555-4354
relay1.uu.net!stl-17sima.army.mil!gaspar

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Date: Fri May  6 09:26:47 1994
From: braddw at rounder.rounder.com
Subject: Local Pub wants my beer.

A good friend of mine owns and operates a small pub in my hometown and
has expressed interest in having some of my beer on tap.  Does anyone
have any details as to the legalities of this?  He has a good sized
commercial kitchen, and plenty of storage so the facilities are there. 
Are there any reference volumes on the archives concerning this?


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Date: Fri, 6 May 94 09:15:00 EDT
From: 06-May-1994 0912 -0400 <ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com>
Subject: switching a pin-lock keg to ball-lock

>Date:     Thu, 5 May 94 8:45:31 EDT
>From: William Boyle (CCAC-LAD) <wboyle at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
>Subject:  Keg fittings
>
>I have a few pin lock kegs, but I need ball lock fittings. My
>question is if I remove the poppet assembly from my pin lock
>and buy new ball lock poppet assemblys will the threads match?

there are a few different vendors of soda kegs out there.  you need to make
sure you get the right one and it shouldn't be a problem.  usually the type of
keg is stamped on the side of the keg somewhere.

i've done this before with success - i ordered parts from FOXX EQUIPMENT,
out of Kansas City.

jc

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Date: Fri, 6 May 94 09:43:16 EDT
From: Stephen C. Anthony <steveo at Think.COM>
Subject: Calories, Carbos and beer

I've been doing some thinking about my diet, and as beer is a pretty large
component of that diet, I was curious as to the nutritional value of beer;
specifically homebrew.

Obviously, the stuff is pure carbohydrate and protien, but no fat. My
question is, can one figure out what the grams of carbohydrates and protien
are per unit serving (say, 12oz) given a terminal gravity?

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Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 09:18:00 EST
From: Bill Ridgely FTS 402-1521 <RIDGELY at A1.CBER.FDA.GOV>
Subject: RE: Beer or Bread?

  Many thanks to Thomas Kavanagh for his excellent summary (HBD #1417) of
  Braidwood's "Beer vs Bread" symposium in 1952.
  
  This was an excellent compilation of the discussions which took place and
  which eventually led to the Katz/Maytag "Ninkasi" experiments of 1991.
  
  I'm already on my way to the library to do further reading based on the
  references provided.
  
  Thanks again for this cogent and concise piece of writing!
  
  Bill Ridgely (Brewer, Patriot, Bicyclist)                    __o
  ridgely at a1.cber.fda.gov                                     -\<,
  ridgely at cber.cber.fda.gov                                ...O/ O...
  


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Date: Fri, 06 May 94 10:23:05 EST
From: Mike_Christy_at_mozartpo at ccmailpc.ctron.com
Subject: Re:Cider dump



Jim writes:

>In the fall of 1992, I bought 5 gal of freshly pressed apple cider from
>a local farm.  No preservatives.  I wanted to make a spiced apple wine
 .
>for it.  I added Wyeast champagne yeast that I had started previously (1
>qt or so).  After several days, fermentation had not started. Nothing.
 .
>add something to keep the yeast healthy.  By this time I was fed up,
>dumped it, and made a batch of beer!

Your breakin' my heart, you dumped apple cider? 

If one is not going to remove the wild yeast already present in freshly 
pressed cider, why would one add another yeast? Depending on the age of the 
cider there can be a substantial lag time before the first bubble. The 
"fresher" the cider, the longer the lag. Especially with 5 gallons, it could 
easily take 14 days depending on the temp. Why do people mess with something 
as natural as cider, just let it go "bad" by itself. Natural cider
frementation can easliy take months to complete depending on the type of
apples pressed (sugar content), some make better cider than others.

Funny thing about cider too, tastes like theres nothing in it...

just MHO - mike



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Date: Fri, 06 May 1994 10:22:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: /R=HERLVX/R=AM/U=KLIGERMAN/FFN=KLIGERMAN/ at mr.rtpnc.epa.gov
Subject: thanks to all, carbonates

Thanks to all those who sent me info about Portland pubs etc.  

Also, I think Jeremy Warren is mistaken about carbonates and pH.  Carbonates
in the water act as a buffer.  High carbonate waters are usually on the
basic side since they can remove hydrogen ions.  High acid water entering
carbonate rich waters will will cause calcium carbonate to dissolve and form
bicarbonates, thus, buffering the solution (Hynes, [1972], The Ecology of
Running Waters)
Andy Kligerman (ex-ecologist, current genetic toxicologist, future?) 



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Date: 06 May 94 10:31:12 EDT
From: tim norris <71650.1020 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Tripple Bock

Good morning readers. I've been skimming old digests and deleting things, 
freeing my hard drive of much of the mail I haven't had the time to read. I 
noticed some notes refering to lots of talk about the Sam Adams Tripple 
Bock.

Well, I've had it! And so did 220 other Chicago Beer Society members at our 
annual Spring Tasting on April 30. I made the contact with SA and arranged 
to accept delivery of one case of specially bottled 12 ounce long necks of 
the stuff. After dinner, following the tasting of 11 outstanding draft 
micro beers... we served each taster a 1 ounce sample of the Tripple Bock. 
While my non-brewing/hophead spouse thought the stuff was unusual and not 
to her liking at the moment.... I thought it was VERY cool and quite 
drinkable at only 60 days old. Reminded me of the very sweet (very 
expensive) Spanish  'Pedro Ximenez' sherries (Gonzalez Byass Noe). Reminded 
some others of ports they had enjoyed. One woman did not like it at all and 
offered me the remainder of her sample which I was quite thrilled to 
accept.

I am told....

The starting gravity is 38 PLATO; the a/v content of the batch we received 
was 17.9%. Fermentation: 30 days with an additional 30 days in Jack Daniels 
Whiskey barrels, which help to mellow things out. The mash is made up of 
regular beer ingredients with the addition of Vermont maple syrup in the 
boil. This is a still beer, and is best served at cellar temperature, 
sipped and enjoyed over a bit of time. All of the cool aromatic and taste 
things happen better unchilled. You really want to get to know this beer, 
It's very complex and I'm sure it will age well!

SATB will be available sometime this summer; 7-8 ounce cobalt blue bottles 
with white painted lables, if I remember it correctly. A case of 24 will 
run about $100, making it the strongest AND most expensive beer in the 
world, facts which will be noted in the 1995 Guiness Book of World Records.

 I am a great fan of big and old beers (I still have almost half a case of 
Kalamazoo Third Coast Old Ale, batch #878, the legendary 10.1 A/V batch 
brewed under a full moon, and a few 1989 Expedition Stouts in 6.9 ounce 
bottles, I gave one of those to M Jackson while waiting in line for food by 
the pool at the AHA Oldenburg Conference), and I hope to be among the first 
to add a case or two to my beer cellar.

I hate the old SA ad campaign as much as any HBer, but they make a whole 
bunch of great beers (are they up to 17 now?), they are very nice for me to 
deal with AND if you want to take my word for it... the Tripple Bock is a 
VERY cool beer!


Tim Norris
 Be enthusiastic about beer, our hobby our lives. If it's not to your 
liking, drink something you prefer and let others enjoy it. No beer is for 
everyone. Each beer is imperfect. That is not bad.

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Date: 6 May 94 10:47:00 EST
From: "KEVIN CAVANAUGH" <CAVANAUGH at evax5.gdc.com>
Subject: JS is wrong!, Split the HBD, and oh yeah Extraction rates

Sorry about the misleading subject title, it was a cheap trick to get
attention.  I thought my last question on extract ratings would spark some
conversation, but not even one response.  So here goes again, along with
another burning question I'm sure plagues all homebrewers.

Extraction rates:

Extraction rates (e.g. 35 points/(lb/gal) for pale malt) are based on 100%
efficiency.   But when do you get 100% efficiency from a mash ?  Is it when all
the starch is converted to glucose ?  But if extraction is based on weight and
dextrines are heavier than glucose, will efficiency be increased if the mash
yields more dextrines ?  How about starches which are heavier yet ? What about
grains like crystal where dextrines are expected, could you get better than the
rated extraction if mashed and converted to more simple sugars ?

Brewing water:

Should all the brewing water be treated the same or should sparge water be
treated differently than mash water.  Salt additions seem to be the preferred
choice for mash water, however I have seen references in the HBD and also
Miller' book about treating sparge water with acids (e.g. lactic acid). It
seems to me once the proper water treatment is determined, it can be used for
both mashing and sparging.  This must be what the breweries do, I'm sure they
don't have separate hot liquor tanks for each.  Is it because once sparging
begins the needed ions are removed and therefore the proper reactions will not
take place to maintain pH, etc. ? 

Thanks for any help
KC


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Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 09:06:02 -0700 (MDT)
From: walter at lamar.ColoState.EDU (Brian J Walter (Brewing Chemist))
Subject: Wort Chiller conservation? Why not save it! Tabernash Does!

Forwarded message:
> From dummy Wed Feb  29 12:12:12 1990
> X-EB: ------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 18:27:31 -600 (CDT)
> From: Mark Evans <evanms at lcac1.loras.edu>
> Subject: Wort Chiller conservation? Why not save it!
> 
> 
> Here's an interesting note on the "wort chiller conservation thread."  I
> left my wife in charge of running the wort chiller while I took the kids
> to the pool (indoors, you goofballs) last Sunday afternoon.  It was her
> favorite brew--stout--so she didn't mind getting in on the process. 
> Anyway, she felt guilty letting all of that water run off, so she started
> filling some gallon plastic milk jugs that I'd saved for camping.  She
> saved about six gallons--the water was running pretty slowly--and got the
> wort down to about 85-90F after maybe 25 minutes.  I was surprised that,
> when carefully regulated, only that much water ran off.  We use the water
> on house plants, some outdoor seedlings, some washing, and the dog likes
> to stick her tongue in the openings for an afternoon drink.  I suppose I
> could save these jugs of water for later batches of brew. Course after all
> the rain of last summer I figure that the aquifer is pretty well stoked
> up.  
> 
> Brewfully yours, Mark Evans in Dubuque, Iowa
> 
> where the hop plants are growing like jack's bean stalk!  
> 
> <evanms at lcac1.loras.edu>
> Dubuque, Iowa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 10:24:40 -0500
From: rickb at csdalt.csg.mot.com (richard bitter)
Subject: Experimenting Rookie

To: Malt gods, hops gurus, general experts, and brewers who just know more than
	me.
	I am a novice brewer (haven't gotten to the partial mash yet).
I would like to try to brew a fruit beer (I've had bicylce's lime beer) and 
thought it was interesting. With the limited selection i've seen in liquor 
stores, i figured i'd have to brew my own.
	I am requesting information/advice on constructing a blueberry
beer. (ie. what kinds of extracts, fresh, frozen, or extract blueberries, etc)
I would also like to attempt a partial mash, advice on how i could incorporate
this experiment into this beer is also welcome.
			thanks,
			Rick
(either posts or private responses are just fine with me)
rickb at CSDALT.csg.mot.com

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1418, 05/07/94