FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Jeez Jack, relax. (BAIER_T)
  Re: skunkiness, heat losses (Bill Szymczak)
  Sparge temperatures ("xScheffer.Terry")
  grainy taste (00rjzakjr)
  Second Batch Brewing (Scott Smallie)
  Wort oxygenation (Don Put)
  Yeast Propagation/Hopped Starter/Whitbread recipe ("Dan Trollinger" )
  Rude Zima Dude (Jim Doyle)
  Skunkiness, Zima, and the like (Cree-ee-py Boy)
  B-Brite/malts/Pts Per Lb/Unpale/Twistoffs/HopsBoiledInH2O/2HotSparge (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Moldy Grain (Rich Larsen)
  Pilsner Urquell ("Stephen Lovett")
  Beer Life (rnarvaez)
  lite, lite, lite beer (Michael Cullen)
  Please send again ("CPSMTP01")
  Hops in starters (David Draper)
  Arizona Brewpubs/Micro's ("THOMAS L. STOLFI")
  STUCK FERMENTATIO (douglas.kerfoot)
  Merci! (PAUL.HUNEAULT)
  brewing Software (Bill Rust)


Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU),
  then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! 
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
FAQs, archives and other files are available via anonymous ftp from 
  sierra.stanford.edu. (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via 
  mail from listserv at sierra.stanford.edu.  Send HELP as the body of a 
  message to that address to receive listserver instructions.) 
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 09:15:48 -0700
From: Richard B. Webb <rbw1271 at appenine.ca.boeing.com>

Subject: hopping wort starters, fantasy homebrew supply stores

I like to save some of the excess wort from my latest batch to
use as a yeast starter. It has the advantages of already being
hopped, as well as having a known gravity. I boil it up and save
it in small jars for ready use when I need it.
When I make my own
intentional starter, I often throw in a single bud of hop
flower. I do this because I read that the chemicals released
by the boiled hop help to inhibit the growth of the nasty
bugs that would kill to be able to move into my rent
stabilized yeast condo. One of the reasons that hops are so
good in beer (after things like bittering, taste and aroma)
are the contamination inhibiting properties that they bring.

- --------------------------------------------------------

Next subject: the ultimate homebrew supply stores.
There are about 4 or 5 supply stores here in the 
greater Puget Sound area (otherwise known for its lame
sports teams, Mariwiners, Seachickens, and Stupidsonics).
Some notes on how I feel about them.

If you want the best prices, the Boeing Employees
Beer and Wine club has gotem. It helps to be a member, as
I'm not, but that's where to find that. Point in favor: *Price*.
Point against: They are only available for maybe one hour a
month, during the week on a workday. *Availability*

The best selection is to be found at the Brewer's Warehouse near
the Udub. (Team motto: We'll be the best damn football team
in jail next year) They've got everything, including left
handed fermentation locks. Point in favor: *Selection*
Point against: With that selection comes high overhead costs,
which are of course passed along to the consumer. *Price*
rears it's ugly head.

Liberty malt supply in downtown Seattle is closer to the latter
than the former. It has a somewhat good selection of stuff,
especially malts, but I think that it's ground zero location 
results in high rents, which are again passed on to the 
customer. It's tiny and cramped, but they do sell old copies of
Zymurgy and other brewing publications. And it's the flagship
store of Merchant du Vin, so they sell what they import. That way
you can buy the original example of the beer that you're trying to
brew. Point in favor: They sell beer. Point against: Price again.

Evergreen Brewing supply in Bellevue (city motto: we don't have any bad
sports teams) is a bit better, although I don't get there much. They
have a good selection of malt, supplies, and brewing literature. But
their prices seem to be a bit high too. I understand that they're 
still just starting out, but I've bought precious little from them
because I keep my wallet clasped firmly in both hands when I go out.
Point in favor: they have demonstration brews / classes so that new
brewers can get a feel for all grain beer making. A rather skimpy
newsletter gives in-store specials as well as a schedule of the
brew of the month.

My favorite brewing store is Larry's Brewing supply in Kent. Point in
favor: It's the closest shop to my house. The selection used to be
so-so, but it's gotten much better in the 2.5 years that I've been a
patron. For new brewers, they have a pretty good selection of canned
malt syrup, but the bulk malt extract is the best. Larry has 
5 (count 'em) 5 different kinds of bulk malt extract. He'll sell you
a plastic jar to pack it away in, or you can bring your own. You can
buy your malt by the pound, or you can buy a bag for big savings. And
he offers *FREE* grinding of your grains, even if you bought your grains
earlier, or at some other place. This is *FANTASTIC*! The best thing
about that is that it saves me hours a week, not having to read the
digest winers bitching about how my malt grinding system is so boss,
while yours is made out of toilet paper. Used toilet paper.
Larry's decor leaves a bit to be desired. The wall decorations lean
towards the scantily clad beer babe posters, which is OK, but
sexist as all hell. Another point in favor: The third thursday of 
each month, the back opens up, and becomes the meeting place of the
powerful Impaling Alers, the rather immodest homebrew club in
Seatopolis' south end. Keep that in mind if you want to start your
own supply store: start a club (offering discounts to members!) and
you'll guarantee yourself a constant pool of customers! Larry is most
helpful in helping people get started, and the club offers classes
for new and intermeadiate brewers. See the comments about customer
pool. If you want to succeed in your business, you must have people
to sell to. Encouraging people to start brewing will ensure a
customer base.

Enough wasted bandwidth. I think that I've stepped on enough toes
for you to all realize that I have no affiliation with any of
these places, but I think that you can also see which store is my
favorite. If you want to start your own business, you could do
worse than to immitate Larry and his fine establishment. Hell, you
could probably work out some sort of franchise deal!

Good luck!
Rich Webb

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 09:30:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: BAIER_T at SALT.PLU.EDU
Subject: Jeez Jack, relax.

Mr. Schmidling -

Your tirades have grown tiresome.  It has become too difficult
to extract the useful bits of brewing knowledge you convey from
the personal attacks.

Although your products seem to be of high quality, the thought
of contributing to your wealth has become less attractive lately.

By design or not, you have become something of a public figure.
Please show some class by not 'going off' like Sean Penn
every time someone disagrees.

Please try to relax - it's only beer.

Tom Baier
Tacoma, WA
BAIER_T at SALT.PLU.EDU



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 12:33:31 EDT
From: bszymcz%ulysses at relay.nswc.navy.mil (Bill Szymczak)
Subject: Re: skunkiness, heat losses

Paul Huneault writes:

>I'm a fan of European lagers like Heineken, Grolsch and (the original)
>Amstel. In my modest homebrew efforts, I have sought to reproduce that
>"skunky" nose which distinguishes these brews. My homebrew supply store
>owner claims this flavour is a byproduct of storage - nothing more than
>happenstance. 
>Hmmm.
>Have any HBD readers ever heard of such an explanation?
>Is there an extract of mephitis mephitis out there somewhere? ;-) ...

I'm not sure if you are serious, but the skunkiness is caused by
a breakdown of some of the hop compounds due to light (UV- if I
remember correctly). Flourescent light and sunlight are good
sources.  So if you actually want the skunkiness, its very easy.
First ts better to use clear or green bottles, and after you fill
them simply leave them under flourescent or sun light for a day or
so (actually a few hours may be enough) and you'll have a skunky
Heineken clone.  (By the way, you may be disappointed if you try
kegged Heineken- I had some a few years ago and it did not have that
characteristic skunkiness which makes it the leading imported beer
in America.)  I recently had one of my beers (a Helles style) go
skunky.  It was in a clear bottle (I usually bottle one in a batch
in a clear bottle to monotor clarity and yeast floccuation) which
was left exposed in the sun for a few hours during a party.  It was
an interesting experiment, which I guess, you may want to
reproduce.

Also the ORACLE wrote:
> ... (stuff deleted)
>fall far short of maintaining a 170F mash temp.   Furthermore, sparging is 
>obviously a heat losing process, as we are continually removing hot (heat) 
>wort.

I lost you here.  Did you forget that you are also adding hotter (heat)
water while sparging?  Since there is a heat source, as well as
sinks it doesn't seem obvious that sparging is a heat losing
process, unless you've actually measured the temperature continually
dropping during the entire sparging process.

>You can assure him all you wish, but you are ignoring physics and arguing 
>like an idiot.  You are also proving that much of your vast time in grade has 
>been a waste of time.   ....

This seemed unfair but maybe it fits here as well.

Bill Szymczak
bszymcz at ulysses.nswc.navy.mil

Return to table of contents


Date: 10 Jun 1994 10:04:23 U
From: "xScheffer.Terry" <scheffer at mdab.mdc.com>
Subject: Sparge temperatures

Unknown Microsoft mail form. Approximate representation follows.

To: homebrew digest
From: xScheffer.Terry on Fri, Jun 10, 1994 10:04 AM
Subject: Sparge temperatures

I am a relatively new brewer who recently was enlightened about HBD and
subcribed. I have been following the Sparging discussion between Don and Jack
and  others. (Pretty spirited discussion. These folks take their brewing
seriously!).

So, all of this talk of extracting tannins got me thinking. If 180 degree
plus temperatures extract tanin, why doesn't decoction do the same thing
since you are boiling the grain? 
TIA
Terry

"Its OK to take your job seriously'
Just dont take yourself too seriously"
GOD  (Good Old Dad)

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 12:28:27 -0500 (EST)
From: 00rjzakjr at leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Subject: grainy taste

I'm hoping that someone will be able to help me out from the digest since I
live in a homebrewing-poor town at the moment.
	I've been brewing beer for seven years, mostly extract-based.
recently I am trying my hand at all-grain batches.  I've made about six
or so.  One thing they all have in common is a bitter, grainy taste. I 
thought that it was due to my sparging techniques which were bad.  But
I followed instructions from Papazian and the all-grain list on sierra for
my last batch and it too had that bitter grainy taste.  I use a zapap
lauter-tun.  My beers also lack a residual malty sweetness, eventhough I
infusion mash at about 155 F.  Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong?

I also have a question about my keg--a pressure barrel, really.  It's an
Edme barrell.  I'm having a problem attaining the right amount of 
carbonation as I pour through about 4 1/2 feet of 3/16" ID tubing.  
According to the kegging FAQ this is the right length.  Should I figure
in the floating take-up tube inside the keg--it too is 3/16 ID?  Anyone
use this draft system succussfully and have any pointers?  TIA
private e-mail okay (preferred, actually) unless you think your answer
will be of general interest.

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 12:51:13 CDT
From: Scott Smallie <scotts at crt.com>
Subject: Second Batch Brewing

I am in the middle of my second homebrew and I need some guidance
and reassurance.  

My brew is a wheat beer and I started it June 1st.  I brought 2.5 gal
of water to boil and added the following.
1 can of weizen lager wheatbeer syrup
4.5 cups of light dry malt
2 cups of dry wheat extract
2 teaspoons of brewing salts
1 pkg of tetnag hp pellets.

Boil for 30min.

Pour the wort and 3gal of water into primary fermenter(7gal pastic bucket).

When it had cooled I added yeast,  I had prepared durring the wort boil.
I prepared the yeast by adding it .5 cup warm water and covering.

I covered the bucket and let it sit until the 5th when I moved it to
the primary fermentor(5gal glass jug with S-air lock).

I did not have instructions on when or how much wheat extract to add, so
I guessed.  Today 6/10 I have a bubble rate of 1 bubble/min and I 
have about a 1/2 inch of light colored sediment.  Should I move the 
brew off of the sediment?  When is the "right" time to put my beer 
in bottles?  Did I put the wheat extract in the brew at the right
time?  Is there a wrong time to add wheat extract?


Thanks for the help. Private email is fine. 

- --
##########################################################################
Scott Smallie               NationsBanc-CRT             scotts at crt.com
(312) 431-3574             440 South Lasalle
                           Chicago, IL 60605
Standard disclaimer:  opinions are my own not my employers
##########################################################################

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 11:00:46 -0700
From: Don Put <dput at csulb.edu>
Subject: Wort oxygenation

Hello, All:

The recent posts by George Fix and others about wort oxygenation coincided
with a recent project of mine that I recently completed.  Instead of 
using an airstone arrangement, which I think works very well from all the
reports on the HBD, I thought I'd try and oxygenate the chilled wort as
it passes from the kettle to the fermentor.  This is the only place in 
my current system that I needed to close more completely.  

Crude ascii graphic of what I came up with:

                      <------wort enters
 4"    --------> |  |
 piece of 3/8    |  |
 brass pipe      |  |
                 |  | <-------around the circumference here I have
                 |  |         drilled 4 holes in which I installed 4
                 |  |         pieces of 1/16" copper tubing.  They meet
                 |  |         together in a common manifold that accepts
                 |  |         3/8s tubing for O2 delivery.
                 |  |
                 |  |
                 |  |
                 |  |

I think this will oxygenate my wort much better than just using air,  
especially at the ~6000' elevation where I live and brew.  Am I correct 
in this assumption?  Feedback?  Comments?  George's recent data suggests
that over-oxygenation won't be a problem (something I was concerned 
with even though I know it would be highly unlikely with this setup).

Also, I've seen references to Sierra Nevada aerating their wort "halfway
through the cooling process."  Most of the literature on HSA that I have
read suggest 70-80F as the threshold for HSA (anything above is dangerous;
anything below is safe).  Now, does SA start aerating their wort after 
enough of the cooled wort is collected (i.e., the halfway point--this I 
doubt), or do they really start halfway between boiling and say 70F?  If
the latter, how do they avoid HSA?

One last thing:  I know someone on here has been using a setup like this
(I believe he's a welder).  At the time, I wasn't as interested in this as
I am know and I didn't save his posts.  Would that person please contact
me so that we may exchange some info?  Thanks.

don
dput at csulb.edu


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 14:24:29 -0400
From: "Dan Trollinger" <dan at iluvatar.tip.duke.edu>
Subject: Yeast Propagation/Hopped Starter/Whitbread recipe 

First, thanks for the assistance in accessing zipped sierra files, notably the 
yeast.faq. As a neophyte yeast farmer I have some questions for the HBD experts.

1) Yeast propagation: 
I recently tried the water bath technique to re-use the yeast cake from a 
primary. It worked pretty well (although since I started on brew day I didn't 
have time for a second wash or much time for a starter, so for those trying this
at home, allow plenty of time for the yeast to settle) since fermentation was 
going strong the next morning. I would like to now try the serial propagation 
technique described in the yeast.faq (i.e. make 1 gallon starter and bottle 4-6 
12 oz yeast slurri after fermentation is complete, then use each bottle like a 
single liquid yeast packet, make starter for each batch, etc.). How long will 
these slurry bottles keep? Refrigerate? Are there any clues to indicate when one
is contaminated? I would appreciate any tips and suggestions from folks who have
tried this before. I would like to avoid mistakes instead of learning from them.
(As much as I'd like to explore the use of slants, agar, and loops, I don't 
think my SO is ready for a yeast bank in the frig. She bought me my first beer 
starter kit for Xmas and now realizes she's created a brewmeister monster--what 
a great hobby!!)

2) RE: Domenick Venezia's question on hopping the yeast starter:
Yes, hops bring anti-bacterial properties to the mini-wort and when playing with
yeast, why take chances? Like you, I use a wee bit of yeast nutrient and also a 
high gravity wort to give yeasties a feast . In fact, when sterilizing the jars 
and water for the yeast water bath mentioned above, I also canned some starter 
wort (pints) and sterile water (quarts) in mason jars for future use since I 
already had a hot canning pot on the stove. 

3) Recipe request: 
Does anyone have or know of a source for IPA and other Pale Ale recipes in 
general, and Whitbread Pale Ale specifically ? (BTW, I already have CatsMeow2)

e-mail is fine for yeast tips, but recipes info may be universally 
appreciated---TIA


DT  dan at iluvatar.tip.duke.edu  "RUST NEVER SLEEPS"


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 11:54:19 -0700
From: Jim Doyle <jgdoyle at uci.edu>
Subject: Rude Zima Dude

Paul Ambrose wrote:

> If you don't like it, don't buy it; your anti-patronage says more
>than your obvious emotion ;-), and who cares whether you put a gun to
>your head anyway, dip-shit!

My response:
Even if you do enjoy Zima, you should have at least enough taste not to
call somebody else a dip-shit for expressing his views...I think we can all
figure out who the dip-shits are around here.  Maybe next time you pop a
Zima, you should read a file on netiquette.

Also, I never heard any answers to my question...

Does it cause ill effects to the beer in a corny keg if you move it from
fri(d)ge to deck outdoors, back to fri(d)ge (the temperature fluctuations
don't seem to harm it, but it doesn't usually last very long)?


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 15:44:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: Cree-ee-py Boy <BIRMINGH at FNALV.FNAL.GOV>
Subject: Skunkiness, Zima, and the like

         [I scrogged the header by accident]

>I'm a fan of European lagers like Heineken, Grolsch and (the original)
>Amstel. In my modest homebrew efforts, I have sought to reproduce that
>"skunky" nose which distinguishes these brews. My homebrew supply store
>owner claims this flavour is a byproduct of storage - nothing more than
>happenstance. 

         Yep.  The smell results from a photochemical reaction with the
    hops in the beer.  You can reproduce it yourself by leaving beer out in
    bright sunlight.



         Paul Crowell shrieks:

>than your obvious emotion ;-), and who cares whether you put a gun to
>your head anyway, dip-shit!

         Contrary to whatever impression you may have garnered from the
    maltmill/easymasher debates (not pointing fingers, just commenting on
    the atmosphere,) the above is the sort of tone most of us try to avoid
    on HBD.  Please be civil.


Philip Gravel asks:  (Hi, Phil!  Looking forward to the next Pholly!)

>than I would have expected them to be.  I wonder if the process of making
>an extract from a wort doesn't result in a (slightly?) darker color....

         Yes, I believe it does.  Worts are boiled at low
    temperature/pressure to make extracts, but they are still boiled, and
    when you get hold of it, you reconstitute it and boil it yet again. 
    Furthermore, most extract brewers I know do a partial boil; the higher
    gravity involved exacerbates carmelization. To make matters worse, I
    read somewhere (Dr. Fix's book, I think) that the browning reaction can
    continue even after the extract has been packaged.


Domenick Venezia asks:

>So let's start a thread, who hops their yeast starters and why?

         I do, strictly for the antiseptic properties of the hops.  I don't
    know for certain that it helps, but it certainly hasn't hurt and it
    adds only about ten percent to the cost of starters.  It also doesn't
    hurt that I make about three gallons of starter at a time and can it.

                                                     Brew on,
                                                     Phillip

Return to table of contents


Date: 10 Jun 94 21:02:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: B-Brite/malts/Pts Per Lb/Unpale/Twistoffs/HopsBoiledInH2O/2HotSparge

Please excuse the tardiness of these comments, but I've been away from
my terminal with the flu.

John writes:
>How long does Beer Bright last after you disolve it in water. Can I just
>pour it from container to container indefinitely? Does it lose it's
>effectiveness over time? Thanks in advance.

I assume you mean B-Brite.  If so, then I don't think it is much good
after a few hours once you've begun to use it.  Both B-Brite and One-Step
are primarily Sodium Percarbonate, which, after adding to water, makes
something similar to Hydrogen Peroxide with Sodium Carbonate in it.  It's
disinfecting qualities come from the excess oxygen in the H2O2 and once all
of that is gone, you just have Sodium Carbonate in water.  A decent cleanser,
but not a sanitizer.  If you mixed it up and just left it sitting in
a closed container, it would probably last weeks, but once you put some
kind of organic compound in it (like, say a glob of mold from the
bottom of a bottle), the O2 goes at it and the sanitizing ability
begins to be used up.  I usually make up 5 gallons of One-Step solution
in the carboy and then reuse that to sanitize the other equipment for
this particular batch.  I don't save it for subsequent batches.

*************
Some (sorry) wrote:
>When I brewed my first all grain brew, I went to me local supply store and
>the recipe I was trying was just a basic Pale Ale (Just wanted to start
>simple).  They had a variety of 2 row grains.  They had American Pale Malt,
>German Pale Malt and Belgin Pale Malt.  They also have a similar grouping
>of Crystals and Wheats from differnt countries.
> 
>The store told me that they are basically all the same, just from different
>countries.
> 
>Is this true, or does one country make a better grain than the other. What
>are the major differences? The prices were the same or only 5 or 10 cents a
>pound difference.

The differences between malts can be stunning.  If there are samples of the
malts available, try tasting them and compare the flavors.  Although the
flavors in beer will be somewhat different, you can get some idea of what
each malt will impart to your beer.  For example, there's no question that
DeWolf-Cosyns Special B has a raisin-like flavor.  No other crystal malt
I've tasted has this flavor.  I've tasted apricots, caramel, toast, biscuits,
currants and many other flavors in various malts.

**********
Don writes:
>The folks who brought us lambics, pilsners, and steam styles of beer went 
>against "accepted practice."

Actually, the real brewers of lambics are hanging on to accepted practice
from a few hundred years ago.  The rest of the brewing world has come up
with new "accepted practices" but the traditional lambic brewers (bless
their souls) have stayed clear of these.


>Speaking of points/lb/gallon, Larry Kelly asks when to figure this, in the 
>boiler or in the fermenter.  I take at the fermenter.  This, of course, 
>lowers my value.  I always lose a fair amount from my early estimate when 
>the boiler if full after the sparge (I do cool my sample).  I would guess 
>that most of this is due to loss in hops and trub.  However, you report 29 
>at the beginning of the boil, 26 at the end, and 20 after dilution.  
>Something here isn't right, and I don't think it is all due to the lack of 
>linearity when diluting.  Someone else (Martin Manning?) needs to help on 
>this. 

Dilution is linear.  2.5 gallons of 1080 wort added to 2.5 gallons of water
will (after stirring!) give you 5 gallons of 1040 wort.  If you consider the
total volume of the wort before the boil and after the boil, the pts/lb/gal
should be the same.  Once you remove the wort from the hot/cold break and
the hops, indeed you have the same OG, but less wort, so there will be some
loss in pts/lb/gal.  If you are interested in the efficiency of your lauter
tun, then you probably want to look at pre-boil values.  If you are comparing
DeWolf-Cosyns malt with Briess, you want to compare the values after removing
the trub.  This is important because varying protein levels will result in
varying amounts of trub.  Assuming you feel that the taste difference between
the two malts is acceptable (personally, I don't), and you are looking just
at $/point/lb/gal, you must consider trub losses.

*******
Michael writes:
>        1)   Derek Sikes asked about his Unpale IPA from extract.  We tried 
>making one of Charlie's Pils and it was <awful>.  If you want a pale ale, start
>with a simple bitter, like Charlie's Righteous Real Ale.  It's also a good 
>basic extract recipe for experimenting with hops, fruit, etc.

The darkness of your extract beer is directly related to the extract you use.
Some are lighter than others (Alexanders, M&F Extra Light, are two very light
ones).  Also, whether extract or all-grain, oxidation (aeration of hot wort,
for example) will darken your beer considerably.  Chill before aerating.

>        2)   Ken R. wants to know about using twist-offs--- don't.  They can't 
>handle the pressure. In an ideal world, you'd want lots of 'bar bottles', i.e.,
>Bud longnecks.  The bottles they use for bars (refilled at least a few times)
>are thicker than the regular storebought returnables (crushed, melted, and 
>remade into bottles. It's amazing how wasteful we are!).  We use Sam Adams 
>bottles (the thin ones) and haven't had any problems.   

I agree, but for a different reason.  Twist-off bottles are made to he sealed
with twist-off caps.  I don't know of any retail source for these kinds of 
caps, nor would they work with a capper meant to be used for pry-off caps.
The beers that come in the twist-offs are not going to be any less carbonated
than the beers we put in them (unless we have in infection), so I don't feel
that pressure-handling is an issue.  Sure, you can cap twist-offs with pry-off
caps, but you will get some leakers.  Personally, I don't think it's worth
the risk.

Regarding boiling hops in plain water and then adding extract:
>        plain water. This figure more approxamates my taste results.  Besides
>        higher utilization of hops, there is no boil-over or break mat'l to
>        worry about when the malt isn't boiled; are there disadvantages ?

Yes.  You do want hot break to form.  Also, the hops *help* the break form.
Hot and cold break are primarily proteins and protein-tannin complexes.  If
you leave these in your beer, it will tend to be hazy and have a much shorter
shelf life.

********
Jim writes:
>Wrong again, Don.  If you use sparge water above 180F, you are going to 
>increase the tannins extracted.  I also use a kettle to mash in and a 
>"kettle" to lauter in .  I can assure you it is better to sparge with 
>170F water than with 190F.

Sorry Jim, I must disagree.  Your dislike for Jack is clouding your otherwise
clear brewing mind.  I think that we all would have been better served if you
would have calmed down for a few days before posting.

If the pH is kept low, you will not increase tannin extraction appreciably
even with boiling water.  A lot of this has to do with water chemistry, which
is a point that Jack failed to mention when he said that this works for him.
It's not just the system, but also the water.  What you *will* increase when
you sparge with 180 or 190F water is the extraction of unconverted starch.
This will lead to permanent haze in the beer.  I've tasted quite a few of
Jack's beers and there have never been problems with astringency, but I must
also admit that the beer has never been brilliantly clear.  This doesn't
necessarily mean it's starch haze, but it could be.

Al.

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 16:43:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: Rich Larsen <richl at access1.speedway.net>
Subject: Moldy Grain

I forgot who it was that posted a while ago asking if it was ok to use
grain that had mildewed.

Well, I recently found out that the answer is DON'T!!!!

Mildewed ro moldy grain may be growing Aspergillus, which is a source of
Alphatoxins.  This substance is a known carcinagen... something I don't
think you'll want in your beer.

=> Rich                              

+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Rich Larsen (708)-388-3514                          | 
| The Blind Dog Brewery "HomeBrewPub", Midlothian, IL |
|          (Not a commercial establishment)           |
| E-mail to richl at access1.speedway.net                |
| Also on HomeBrew University Midwest (708) 705-7263  |
|                                                     |
|  "I never drink... Wine."   Bela Lugosi as Dracula  |
+-----------------------------------------------------+




Return to table of contents


Date: 10 Jun 1994 11:39:19 U
From: "Stephen Lovett" <stephen_lovett at qm.claris.com>
Subject: Pilsner Urquell

 Subject: Pilsner Urquell
OK, I'm ready, I'm going in:

I'm looking for a Pilsner Urquell recipe... do your worst.

Triple decoction doesn't scare me, four kinds of yeast, no problem. I've been
preparing for years, and I'm ready to play hard ball. <big grin> 

Seriously, I'd like to brew several different recipes, and compare them. I'll
post a summary of the results. Also fellow PU lovers, and other suggestions
that will help me reproduce this wonderful brew, would be greatly
appreciated. 

Best of Brewing,

Stephen Lovett
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Equal rights for unborn yeast buds!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 19:16:26 -0500
From: rnarvaez at lan.mcl.bdm.com
Subject:  Beer Life

Hello fellow brewers,
I recently acquired a 5 gal Pepsi syrup canister and would
like to use it for a keg. I have read some info on them in
the HBD and my local supply store carries the hook up
and CO2 Tanks. My question to all you experienced
brewers is how long can I expect my beer to remain
drinkable. If I leave it pressurized and place it in a fridge
will it stay good. Do I have to keep the pressure lines on it
all the time? Please let me know if I should invest the
money ($80.00 for co2, $65.00 for regulator and hoses)
or should I continue using the tried and true bottles.

Thank for any assistance rendered.

Ronald Narvaez
Rnarvaez at lan.bdm.com

I don't have a drinking problem,
I brew, I drink, I enjoy..... No Problem!



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 08:54:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: mcullen at netcom.com (Michael Cullen)
Subject: lite, lite, lite beer


hello all,

   Yup, it is time to make beer for those who helped me make my new
   setup.  The problem is: these people drink light beer! In fact
   one switched from coors-light to keystone-light (my hands shudder
   from just typing that).  Because I want them to actually drink the
   beer, my questions are thus:

   1) should I make a light beer (OG ~30-35) and dilute it w/ ~25% water, or
   2) make a normal beer and dilute it at least 50% ?
   3) what about priming? should I increase the sugar in the diluted part?

   I plan to use Wyeast #1056 (Am/Chico Ale), and keep it cool during
   fermentation, or would Wyeast #2112 (CA Lager) be better?
   I don't have an extra 'fridge to lager, so I brewing a true lager is
   out.

   What does the almighty HBD think.

   I know the right thing to do is to try to get them to drink a good beer
   but....

   TIA
   mike
   mcullen at netcom.com


Return to table of contents


Date: 10 Jun 1994 00:46:15 U
From: "CPSMTP01" <cpsmtp01 at cpqm.saic.com>
Subject: Please send again

Mail*Link(r) SMTP               Homebrew Digest #1446 (June 10, 1
!!!! Original Message >= 24K; See following enclosure. Preview follows !!!!




HOMEBREW Digest #1446		             Fri 10 June 1994


	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  ORACLE SPEAKS (Jack Schmidling)
  insulated lauter tun (Btalk)
  Re: Piss yellow (Tom Wurtz)
  Re:  Lids on German Steins (M.D.Gugel) (Mark Gugel)
  Re:accepted brewing practices (Michael Froehlich)
  Skunkiness...je ne sais quoi... (SYSTEM.OPERATOR)
  Zima debate (Paul Crowell)
  Jack's Big Keg Project (Jack Skeels)
  Supply stores ("Mark B. Alston")
  going away (Julie A Espy)
  no mail, please (Julie A Espy)
  pH meter recommendations (Don Put)
  Brewing Software ("Charles S. Jackson")
  Re: Pale ale? (Philip Gravel)
  Steeping aroma hops (Domenick Venezia)
  Hops in yeast starter? (Domenick Venezia)
  tannins and extraction (again!) (ANDY WALSH)
  Ring around the neck (Paul Jeffrey)
  Beer Balls (CCAC-LAD) <wboyle at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
  Brewery design (Bob Jones)
  RE: brewery design, kolsch, and sparge temps (Jim Busch)
  I WANT YOUR RECIPES!!!!!! ( LARRY KELLY)
  Wort Aeration (George J Fix)
  St. Arnold Amber Ale (George J Fix)
  You could do this for a living ("Justin J. Lam")
  You could do this for a living ("Justin J. Lam")
  Remote bulb thermostats (Allen Ford)
  schidling/mills/rabble (Rich Ryan)
  Extract for Duvel, Sankey kegging, Fridge in closet (Nancy.Renner)


Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU),
  then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! 
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
FAQs, archives and other files are available via anonymous ftp from 
  sierra.stanford.edu. (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via 
  mail from listserv at sierra.stanford.edu.  Send HELP as the body of a 
  message to that address to receive listserver instructions.) 
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 13:58 CDT
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: ORACLE SPEAKS

 
 
                                  part two
 
 One gets the idea that your remarks are more a reaction to me than of what I

 said.  Instead of defending Don's criticism that you obviously didn't even 
 read the article, we get this....
 
 > Perhaps if you had been brewing as much and long as I have....
 
 You have been brewing so long that you know what is in an article without 
 reading it?    You have proven that you did not know what was in it or you 
 would not have said what you said.
 
 > Its the same article that was rejected by Zymurgy, and what do
  you know, it ends up in the "more technical" journel, BT. Go figure!
 
 Perhaps it is you who should "go figure" before you spout off.  The article 
 was NOT rejected by Zymurgy.  They made the editorial decision to do a major

 review on the product instead of using the article.  If you read the current

 issue of Zymurgy, you will find a very positive and expansive review of the 
 EASYMAHSER (tm), EASYSPARGER (tm) that will sell several orders of magnitude

 more product than the article in BT.  Not only do they have 10 times the 
 circulation but the opinions of a respected publisher are worth far more
than 
 anything I can say.
 
 >Its hardly on the cutting edge of brewing science to realize that sparge 
 waters above 180F increase tannin extraction, see DeClerc...
 
 Not sure what you think you prove by repeating the same thoughtless remark 
 after having heard the answer twice.  The temp of the sparge water is NOT
the 
 issue, it is the temperature of the mash that counts.  
 
 > And I thought one of the "wonders" of kettle mashing is the ease of a mash

 off, ending in a tun at 170F.
 
 What you should be asking, is what mig
- ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------
Received: by cpqm.saic.com with SMTP;10 Jun 1994 00:45:52 U
Received: from hpfcrdg.fc.hp.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with SMTP
	(1.37.109.4/15.5+IOS 3.20) id AA06791; Fri, 10 Jun 94 01:37:54 -0600
Received: by hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
	(1.36.108.4/15.5+IOS 3.22) id AA08152; Fri, 10 Jun 1994 01:00:49 -0600
Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 01:00:49 -0600
Message-Id: <9406100700.AA08152 at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com>
To: homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
From: homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com (Request Address Only - No Articles)
Reply-To: homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com (Posting Address Only - No Requests)
Errors-To: homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Precedence: bulk
Subject: Homebrew Digest #1446 (June 10, 1994)





Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 09:53:47 +1000 (EST)
From: David Draper <David.Draper at mq.edu.au>
Subject: Hops in starters

Whud id iz: In response to Domenick's call for thread (CFT?) on hops in
yeast starters, I put a few hop pellets in my 500-ml starters (I usually
start from slants except those times when I add a strain to the
ranch-herd) only because I always taste them before use.  If there's hops
in there the stuff tastes much more like beer than if not.  So it's
clearer if there is something wrong at that stage (hasn't happened
yet, knock on formica). That's my only reason.
Cheers, Dave in Sydney

- -- 
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper			School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University
ddraper at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au	NSW 2109 Sydney, Australia
Fax: +61-2-805-8428		Voice: +61-2-805-8347

Return to table of contents


Date: 10 Jun 1994 15:54:15 GMT
From: "THOMAS L. STOLFI" <OBCTS at CWEMAIL.CECO.COM>
Subject: Arizona Brewpubs/Micro's


     If anyone knows of any pubs/micros in the Phoenix area please email me
     directly at   obcts at cwemail.ceco.com.  Thanks in advance.

     Tom Stolfi
     obcts at cwemail.ceco.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 19:59:34 -0400
From: douglas.kerfoot at sbaonline.gov
Subject: STUCK FERMENTATIO


I have a helles bock which started at 1.083 and has stopped
at 1.040.  I've tried yeast energizer but it hasn't helped.
Any suggestions?



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 00:44:36 GMT
From: PAUL.HUNEAULT%dossier at deltacom.cam.org
Subject: Merci!

To: homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com

Hello HBDers,

Many personal (and rapid) responses to my query on
skunkiness. Thanks!

I inquired about the source of the "skunky"
characteristics of certain brews like Heineken and
Grolsch.

The consensus is clear (so to speak). The packaging's
the thing. Exposure to sunlight and/or artificial
light effects some changes in the brew. Substances
such as "mercaptans" and "butanethiol" were 
mentioned. It all came down to leaving bottles
exposed to sunlight for about 30 minutes.

A number of respondents mentioned Molson Golden
as an example. This is perhaps the last brew
I would associate with skunkiness but the example
appears to support the thesis because of the 
following:

Golden is brewed here in Montreal and is sold at
home in generic brown Canadian longnecks. It is
exported in blue-green bottles (ibid Heineken,
Grolsch) which permit more exposure to light. 

This explains why the Golden sold in the USA 
doesn't taste like the Golden available at home.
Time to park my "Grow-Light" near the carboy!

Thanks for taking the time.

Paul Huneault

paul.huneault%dossier at deltacom.cam.org

P.S.

Just a sideline to the Kirin discussion which
took place in these parts in recent weeks 
(re: "first pressings" and the like).
According to my information, the Kirin which
is sold in the USA is brewed here in Montreal
by Molson-O'Keefe (under license). 
Last time I purchased one state-side, the
label read, simply: "Imported".
The Kirin I buy here is labelled: "Imported
from Japan".

Caveat Emptor ;-O
Cheers / A la prochaine.
GatorNet - UseNet <-> FidoNet gate, Montreal - INFO: (514) 359-7450

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Jun 94 20:19:00 -0640
From: bill.rust at travel.com (Bill Rust)
Subject: brewing Software

RE Charles S. Jackson's question about brewing software:

Fe>     Are there any other computer geeks out there who use software to keep
Fe>brewing records?  I have found two, sudsw30 and brewhaha, and was looking for
Fe>some opinions...

Actually, if it's just record keeping you're thinking of, then Suds may be the
way to go.  It's pretty simple to use and it has some nice additional
features.  If it's recipe design software that you want, however, let me refer
you to ZYMURGY, volume 17, no. 1 (Spring 94).  On page 46, they have a big
software roundup of six of the better recipe design programs.  They couldn't
strongly recommend any one of them, so my advice is to stick with shareware,
until you find one that satisfies.

By the way, the Shareware concept is a great way to Try-before-you-buy.  The
author's are usually very good about working with you if you have a
complaint/suggestion.  In fact, feedback is the best way to make a program
perfect.  Good Luck!

 +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | "As I bit into the nectarine, It had a crisp     |      BILL RUST       |
 | juciness about it that was very pleasurable-until|   Systems Analyst    |
 | I realized it wasn't a nectarine at all,         |                      |
 | but A HUMAN HEAD!!                               |       --=_=--        |
 |                                                  |                      |
 | JACK HANDEY                                      |     Shiloh, IL       |
 | Deep Thoughts                                    | bill.rust at travel.com |
 +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+

- ---
 ~ SPEED 1.40 #1651 ~


Return to table of contents

End of HOMEBREW Digest #1448, 06/13/94