HOMEBREW Digest #1490 Tue 02 August 1994

Digest #1489 Digest #1491

		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor

  INBOX Message (See Below) (Mailer.MC1)
  Cascades in Anchor Steam clone??? (Dick Dunn)
  Wyeast ESB 1968 and Sodium Metabisulphite (ANDY WALSH)
  5 liter mini-keg questions (John Williams)
  Harvesting Hops ("Pamela J. Day 7560")
  Re: Cold Box Paint (Tel +44 784 443167)
  mild ale recipe request (Patrick Casey)
  Re: nano-review of bacteria (brewing chemist Mitch)
  Japanese Beetles (John DeCarlo              x7116          )
  Re: Attenuation/weizens (Jim Busch)
  Archive Info (npyle)
  Yeast Culturing (Terry Terfinko)
  English pub info (Jim Dipalma)
  Jim Koch/SA Double Bock (Bob Guerin)
  IBU's (Douglas R. Jones)
  French Canada info needed (Miu Wang)
  Various Topics / Feedback Requested (Louis K. Bonham)
  Bittering without hops (Sean C. Cox)
  Randy's Fun Hunter Club ("MICHAEL L. TEED")
  Oregon brew spots (Marc Hugentobler)
  calling all aussies (Steve Peters)
  Mash & Sparge Times (berkun)
  brewpubs (jehartzl)
  Hops (Douglas R. Jones)
  Saxer lemon lager (John Loegering)
  Re: Canned Beer, HBD #1489 (August 01, 1994) ("Christopher V. Sack")
  '-acation-va' programs Are OK (Conan-the-Librarian)
  Plastic Fermenter Help Neede (Phil Miller)

****************************************************************** ** NOTE: There will be no digest administration from July 27 ** through August 7. PLEASE be patient when requesting changes ** or cancellations. ****************************************************************** Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com (Articles are published in the order they are received.) Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc., to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU), then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first. FAQs, archives and other files are available via anonymous ftp from sierra.stanford.edu. (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via mail from listserv at sierra.stanford.edu. Send HELP as the body of a message to that address to receive listserver instructions.) Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored. For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 1 Aug 94 02:39:13 U From: Mailer.MC1 at hesdmail.mmm.com Subject: INBOX Message (See Below) InBox Message Type: Error InBox Message Subject: Undeliverable message InBox Message Text Follows: Message not delivered to 'MC2' (Disk full) - ------------------------- Original Message Follows ------------------------- Message too large (greater than 30000 bytes). See enclosure! - ------------------------- RFC822 Header Follows ------------------------- Received: by hesdmail with SMTP/TCP;1 Aug 94 02:34:26 U Received: from pigseye.mmm.com by mmm ( 3M/SERC - 4.1/BDR-1.0) idAA27624; Mon, 1 Aug 94 02:44:28 CDT Errors-To: homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com Received: by pigseye.mmm.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA21658; Mon, 1 Aug 94 02:37:47 CDT Errors-To: homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com Errors-To: homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com Received: from hpfcrdg.fc.hp.com by hpfcla.fc.hp.com with SMTP ( 3.20) id AA18307; Mon, 1 Aug 94 01:37:02 -0600 Received: by hpfcmi.fc.hp.com ( 3.22) id AA03330; Mon, 1 Aug 1994 01:01:00 -0600 Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 01:01:00 -0600 Message-Id: <9408010701.AA03330 at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com> To: homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com From: homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com (Request Address Only - No Articles) Reply-To: homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com (Posting Address Only - No Requests) Errors-To: homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com Precedence: bulk Subject: Homebrew Digest #1489 (August 01, 1994) Return to table of contents
Date: 1 Aug 94 02:30:08 MDT (Mon) From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn) Subject: Cascades in Anchor Steam clone??? Regarding the couple of copies of recipes just recently posted for homebrew "clones" of Anchor Steam: I don't understand using Cascade hops. It just doesn't seem to fit at all. Now, I'm not one of the folks who reviles Cascades; in fact I like them a whole bunch in pale ales. They're got a distinctive taste that I really like. BUT because they're so distinctive, and because Anchor Steam so obviously doesn't have any of that distinctive character, why would you use them in a clone attempt? More specifically, why not do the obvious: Use only Northern Brewer? Where does that fall short? - --- Dick Dunn rcd at eklektix.com -or- raven!rcd Boulder, Colorado USA ...Simpler is better. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 20:38:11 +1000 From: ANDY WALSH <awalsh at ozemail.com.au> Subject: Wyeast ESB 1968 and Sodium Metabisulphite Mark Peacock has been updating us on his 1968 beer. I have some additional comments on this unusual yeast that might be helpful for those considering using it. I downloaded a catalog from the Compuserve forum (library 14, abscat.txt for those interested), that has a little more information on the Wyeast cultures than the yeast faq, including fermentation temperature *ranges*, rather than simply an optimum temperature *value*. This is useful for choosing yeasts for seasonal beers if one does not have heaters/fridges etc. Anyway it says this about W1968: W1968 London ESB ale yeast. Highly flocculant top-fermenting strain with rich, malty character and balanced fruitiness. This strain is so flocculant that additional aeration and agitation is needed. An excellent strain for cask-conditioned ales. Flocculation - high; apparent attenuation - 67-71%. (64-72F) It sure is flocculant! It sets like putty on the bottom of the fermenter and literally has to be scraped off! This type of yeast is probably the reason why all the English homebrew books talk about "rousing your wort". I believe it is also common in English breweries to have big open fermenters with mechanical stirrers to perform this "rousing". Obviously this introduces a lot of oxygen (shock, horror), but oxidation does not necessarily cause cardboard flavours overnight - IMHO it can simply lead to poorer keeping qualities for your beer. I believe that if the beer is consumed within a couple of months of fermentation (as I believe many English real ales are - not dissimilar to my homebrew!) that this oxidation is inconsequential. Anyway, such a highly flocculant yeast will drop out before fermentation is complete, without rousing. If you use "normal" techniques (ie. closed airlock with starter from Wyeast pouch) you may have trouble with this strain. Mark and others have commented on their fermentations restarting after racking to secondary. I have just finished a primary (airlock) fermentation with 1968, held at a constant 70F. I roused it twice, on the 2nd and 4th days after fermentation commenced (I was careful with my stirring to not splash it around, just concentrating on scraping the pancake off the bottom). I used a pouch of yeast, started in 1 pint of wort a few days beforehand. It fermented out from 1060 to 1016 after 7 days, after which I transferred it to the secondary. This is fairly typical for my beers, so the yeast so far seems OK. ***************** Secondly, I remember reading (either in Zymurgy or was it Noonan?) that sodium metabisulphite was useful in "neutralising" chlorine. So a question for you chemists - what is the actual reaction? What are the biproducts? Would sodium met. be useful in treating plastic buckets impregnated with bleach, or for removing residual chlorine from equipment sanitised with bleach? Granted the pH of beer and water make sodium met. not useful for sanitising, but perhaps it could have other uses? Andy Walsh. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 07:00:32 +0500 From: John Williams <jwilliam at hartford.edu> Subject: 5 liter mini-keg questions My local homebrew shop has a special on 5 liter metal mini-kegs. The price is $55 for 4 kegs, one plastic tap, an adaptor for little CO2 cartridges, and 4 rubber bungs. About 2 years ago, my wife bought me a plastic Roto keg which I could never get to hold pressure and now sits in the basement gathering dust. She quite rightfully wants me to make sure these mini-kegs work and will not end up down next to the Roto keg gathering dust. So could people who have used these send me some testimonials which I can use to persuade her? Also, let me know if $55 is reasonable. Please send mail directly to the address above. Thanks! John Williams Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 07:26:00 EST From: "Pamela J. Day 7560" <DAY at A1.TCH.HARVARD.EDU> Subject: Harvesting Hops Hello All, I need advice on the best way to dry hops after harvesting them. I've got Cascade & Chinook & they're growing tons of cones. I know when to harvest, but I'd like some ideas on how to preserve them for future use. Also, what is the conversion for using fresh hops vs. dry? I'm unable to access the hops faq, (primative computer system) so any answers will be greatly appreciated. TIA, Pam (Day at a1.tch.harvard.edu) Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 12:42:17 +0000 From: Brian Gowland <B.Gowland at rhbnc.ac.uk> (Tel +44 784 443167) Subject: Re: Cold Box Paint I've not tried this and maybe someone can comment on the use of a high-density marine varnish. It should go onto wood with no trouble and certain makes are resistent to lots of nasty things. Cheers, Brian Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 09:06:28 EDT From: pacasey at lexmark.com (Patrick Casey) Subject: mild ale recipe request Hi, Anyone have an all-grain recipe for a flavourful ;-) Mild Ale? I've never had the style, but the picture of the pint of Highgate Mild in Jackson's latest book has my mouth watering! Related to this, what's a good mash schedule to keep the final gravity up high enough to give the beer some body? (And a good yeast choice, for that matter). Thanks. - Patrick P.S. I'm willing to decoction mash if that'll contribute to the flavor. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 08:41:07 -0500 (CDT) From: gellym at aviion.persoft.com (brewing chemist Mitch) Subject: Re: nano-review of bacteria In HBD 1489, Thomas Junier writes: > these bugs (mainly Lactobacillus and Pediococcus) produce lactic acid, > ethanol (for which we don't blame them :) ), and (not all strains) > diacetyl, which spoils the beer at concentrations as low as 0.2 ppm. Some > strains also produce extracellular slime, which is the 'rope' you sometimes > find in spoiled beers. Other problems include acidity, off-flavors and > yeast flocculation. Not necessarily spoiled beers. Lactobacilli are used in Berliner Weiss and Pediococcus is found in Belgian Lambics and Flanders ales, amongst others. I just pitched a culture of Pedio into a pLambic that I brewed this past weekend (along with four different yeast cultures). > tolerate quite low pH values (under 4,5 in beer), as a matter of fact, they > are sometimes deliberately introduced into the wort for the making of > certain types of beer (I'm not sure which, maybe the Belgian white ales) in Lambics ! Love that sourness. It *is* an aquired taste (which admittedly did not take me very long to acquire ;-> ). I do have friends who are not the cultured beer drinkers that we all are ;-> that I have shared lambics with, just to have them wrinkle their noses and say something to the effect of " eccch, what's wrong with this beer !?! " Pedio and Lacto can be our friends, in the right style of beer, of course. I sure do not want them to pop up in one of my pale ales ! Culturing the wicked, Mitch - -- | - Mitch Gelly - | Zack Norman | | software QA specialist, systems administrator, zymurgist, | is | | AHA/HWBTA beer judge, & president of the Madison Homebrewers | Sammy in | | - gellym at aviion.persoft.com - gelly at persoft.com - | Chief Zabu | Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 10:21:36 EST From: John DeCarlo x7116 <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org> Subject: Japanese Beetles Thanks to everyone for correcting me. It is indeed the milky spore that is used to control the Japanese Beetle grubs and not the BT. Again, let me recommend this approach for a community organization--it definitely works. John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own Fidonet: 1:109/131 Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 10:25:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com> Subject: Re: Attenuation/weizens <From: JohnNewYrk at aol.com <Subject: Attenuation < <When is a wort "fully attenuated"?? I always thought that meant when it had <fermented out, but in Warner's book on wheat beers he talks about racking a <beer when it is fully attenuated -- 48 to 72 hours by his reckoning. I have <lag times that long and my primaries usually last about a week. <I have a weissbier in it's primary right now, and I've been following one of <Warner's recipes, including a decoction mash. It just doesn't feel right to <bottle a beer that was in high kraeusen less than 2 days ago. Has anyone <else read his book and been likewise confused? <I'm going to leave my weissbier in the carboy until it has fermented out and <then I'm going to bottle it. I wanted to brew a "classic" weizenbier, but I <can't bring myself to follow Warner's instructions. Warner is quoting optimal conditions, optimal yeast cell counts, O2 levels, and optimum culture health. In most homebreweries, this is not achieved. Often, one week in the primary is normal. If you repitch slurry, you might be able to achieve the 48-72 hour cycle. Full attenuation for a Weizen is approximately 80%, so a 13 Plato wort should reduce to around 2.5P. Good brewing, Jim Busch Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 8:41:30 MDT From: npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM Subject: Archive Info Responding to a couple of recent queries about the archives, here's my standard archive information file: Here's three ways to get to the homebrew archives: 1) anonymous ftp to sierra.stanford.edu 2) email to listserv at sierra.stanford.edu; send HELP as the body message for instructions 3) via WWW; URL is ftp://sierra.stanford.edu/pub/homebrew You'll find the HomeBrew Digest archives, as well as general FAQs for the HBD and the usenet group rec.crafts.brewing. Also, there is a yeast FAQ, a hops FAQ, and some equipment files, including a good starter on kegging. A full- blown keg FAQ is in the works, as well as an all-grain FAQ. There are also lots of recipes and even some labels for your homebrew. Please use this valuable resource. Cheers, Norm = npyle at hp7013.ecae.stortek.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 11:08:26 EDT From: terfintt at ttown.apci.com (Terry Terfinko) Subject: Yeast Culturing I have been reading about yeast culturing and have some questions on the process. I currently recycle my yeast by creating a starter from a Wyeast packet. At the time I pitch the starter, I also pour a few ounces into a fresh starter bottle with 16 ounces of starter wort. After 24 hours at room temperature, I place this bottle into the fridge. One day prior to brewing, I place this starter at room temperature and after pitching into my brew I repeat the starter cycle. I usually use the refrigerated starters within 1 to 4 weeks. This process seems to work well for Ale yeasts. They seem to go dormant at refrigerator temps and become active again at room temps. Does anyone see a problem with my methods? Someone told me that the refrigerated starters would be good up to one year. I have read that agar slants are the proper way to store yeast long term and was wondering what could go wrong with my method. Any advice or experiences would be appreciated. Terry Terfinko - terfintt at ttown.apci.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 11:28:21 EDT From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma) Subject: English pub info Hi All, Just a quick note of thanks to all who responded to my request last week for information on English pubs that serve real ale. Judging by the number and tenor of the responses, cask conditioned real ale is near and dear to the hearts of many HBD readers. Special thanks to LeRoy Strohl and Tom Cannon, who were especially helpful. Tom, the London publist arrived in good shape, we've arranged the London leg of our trip to include many of the pubs on the list. I'd like to visit them all, but 20 pubs in 3 days is a bit much, even by our standards :-). Thanks, Jim dipalma at sky.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 20:09:22 -0800 From: bguerin at orincon.com (Bob Guerin) Subject: Jim Koch/SA Double Bock RON.admin at admin.creol.ucf.edu provides us with the following Jim Koch info: > - [Samuel Adams] Double Bock has half pound of malt per bottle. Kelly Jones points out that this would result in an OG around 1.150, well beyond the (1.072-1.080) range. Clearly, Boston (TM) Beer (TM) Co.(TM) spills more malt than homebrewers use in a year! ;^) Bob Guerin (bguerin at orincon.com) Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 11:08:18 -0600 From: djones at iex.com (Douglas R. Jones) Subject: IBU's Thanks to those who sent me repsonses about IBU's. I really appreciated it! Brian Gowland gave a nice summary in short bandwidth. But, took me slightly to task for using Saaz as a bittering hop. Being only 4 batches into this hobby I do not have a huge knowledge of hops and their characteristics. (I will get the hop FAQ off of sierra.) These were RECOMMENDED to me by BREWSTORE's as a bittering hop. Even still ignorance is no excuse. On yesterday's batch I once again used Saaz as my bittering hop. Why, 1) I already had it; 2) It is a 4.6% AAU which I believe is high in alpha acide and following the current thoughts that high AAU hops should used in the boil for bitterness; 3) I bought Kent Goldings for flavoring; 4) The cost is not an issue as I have found most ALL hops here are about $3.00 for 2 ounces. In any case thanks to Brian for trying to straighten me out! Doug (who is endeavoring to get my Pale Ales right!) - ------------------------------------------------------------------- 'I am a traveler of | Douglas R. Jones both Time and Space' | IEX Corporation Led Zeppelin | (214)301-1307 | djones at iex.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 09:07:05 PDT From: tmwang at srv.PacBell.COM (Miu Wang) Subject: French Canada info needed I'll be visiting French Canada in a week. Can some helpful soul(s) point me towards interesting brewpubs, breweries, pubs, restaurants and any other points of interest in and around Quebec, Montreal, Ottawa (ok, wrong side of the river...replace with Hull :-) )? Please email me at tmwang at pacbell.com Muchos Gracias...Merci...Danke....Tak Tak....etc Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 11:16:45 From: lkbonham at beerlaw.win.net (Louis K. Bonham) Subject: Various Topics / Feedback Requested Been away from the HBD for a while (for some reason, it quit coming on July 18, and I had to resubscribe), so bear with me. In lieu of The Great Keg Debate <g>, someone recently questioned whether yeast strains are protected by patent, copyright, etc. The technical answer is that they can be; the practical answer is that for the most part they are not. If someone truly "invents" a new yeast strain (critical term: "invent" -- simply "finding" or isolating one won't cut it), then they could apply for a patent. (Many commerical crop and plant varieties are so protected.) If the application were allowed by the patent office, then the yeast would be protected by patent, and any use of the covered strain without a license from the patent holder would be patent infringement (a/k/a a *very* bad idea). However, to the best of my knowledge, none of the yeast strains of interest to brewers are covered by patent, and so they are generally fair game to be recultured and sold. One important caveat: even if a yeast is not protected by patent, it still may be someone's trade secret that is entitled to some protection. For example, if you used to work for X Brewing Co. and snuck out a sample of their secret yeast which you then reculture and begin selling, X Brewing may be able to stop you. Key here is how you got the yeast -- reculturing it from a bottle of X Brewing Bottle Conditioned Ale is OK, but covertly taking a sample during a visit to the brewery probably is not. The same analysis can also apply to a brewery's recipes, which is why every micro and brewpub probably should have written nondisclosure agreements with its employees. Other topics: 1. The Farnsworth / Fix seminars in Houston earlier this month were a big hit (a big thank you to the HBD readers who attended). Paul and George have told me that they are very interested in doing them again in other venues. Any ideas on where such seminars would be well-attended (we had about 50 people each day, and that's about the right number)? Anybody interested in helping with the logistics? 2. Based on information George and Paul have supplied me on the optimal design for cylindroconical fermenter, I've designed and getting fabrication quotes on a minimalist 1/2 bbl. (20 gallon volume, 16 gallon maximum batch capacity) stainless version that will fit in my fermenting fridge. (Like a lot of you, I have neither a glycol chiller nor the desire to spend the $2500+ for the "cadillac" 1/2 bbl. versions advertised in BT.) It strikes me, however, that it may also be possible to have smaller (8 gallon volume, 6 gallon batch capacity) versions molded in bulk from food-grade plastic at a reasonable price, although my personal preference would be to use glass. (Doing vessels of this size in stainless steel would simply be too expensive.) My questions: (1) What sayeth the collective wisdom of the HBD as to the best type of plastic to use (polycarbonate v. HDPE v. whatever). (2) Anybody have any knowledge or experience in approximately how much it would cost to have the necessary *glass* mold made? (3) Assuming a vessel made from food grade plastic, would the advantages of a "mini-unitank" process be enough for homebrew veterans to switch from glass? (4) How much would would people generally be willing to fork over for plastic / glass small cylindroconical fermenters? Please repond to lkbonham at beerlaw.win.net. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 13:06:18 EDT From: scox at factset.com (Sean C. Cox) Subject: Bittering without hops Greetings All, Recently I've become curious about brewing without hops as the bittering agent. I know that hops are a recent addition to the world of brewing (only a few centuries of use :) and I'm interested in what other sources of bitterness or flavoring might be useable in beer. I know that spruce was one source, but I'm certain that a wide variety of other such flavorings must have been used. I'm particularly interested in ingredients which might be reasonably available in today's modern world so I can try a few (small) batches. Purely in the interest of science of course. -- Sean -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -=-=- Sean Cox =-= FactSet Data Systems -=- scox at factset.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=EOT Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 13:50:43 CDT From: "MICHAEL L. TEED" <MS08653 at MSBG.med.ge.com> Subject: Randy's Fun Hunter Club .int homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com Well, I was fortunate enough to attend a wedding reception at Randy's, which is a new brewpub/restaurant in Whitewater, WI and was very happy with the establishment. The reception dinner was one of the best I have had, but the best part of the event was sampling the homebrews on tap. Please keep i n mind that I am not a beer judge, just an avid homebrewer. My best comments on Randy's brews are as follows. Pilsner - seemed a bit light for my tastes, well and adequately hopped, and was surely better than run of the mill. Not near as good as... The Brown Ale. This one was VERY tasty, goo d balance of flavors, and a slightly protruding chocolate flavor. Good head, fair retention. I could have drank this one all night. One thing I am not sure if I am noting this properly, but both beers lacked any flavor of yeast, and seemed that they _may_ have been overfiltered? I am not real familiar with the results of excessive filtering, but there was something missing in both beers I tried that I could only account for in thinking of the lack of yeastiness. Still overall, they were very good beers, and if the food I had at the reception was any indication, their food should be very good also. (insert standard disclaimer here) Hoppy Brewhunting, Mike Teed Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 13:51:17 MST7MDT From: Marc Hugentobler <MARHUG at TELECOM.USU.EDU> Subject: Oregon brew spots Howdy, Later this month I am heading up to oregon on vacation. My SO's and I are going to drive up the coast the week before my friend gets married in brookings. I would greatly appreciate any advice on what brew locations(brew pubs, bars etc. ) to visit. No beer, no vacation;-) Any and all help would liberate my beer palate from the vast beer wasteland here in Logan.(Except for my homebrew of course:'].) Thanks in advance, Marc Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 13:16:03 -0700 From: Steve Peters <stevep at pcx.ncd.com> Subject: calling all aussies To any Australians out there: While doing a homebrewing demonstration this past saturday at the Oregon Brewer's Festival I was interviewed about the process by someone from Australian Public Radio. If anyone actually hears a snippet of this on the radio I'd love to hear about it! - -- Steve Peters stevep at pcx.ncd.com Sustaining Engineering and Support Network Computing Devices Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 12:34:05 PDT From: berkun at decwet.enet.dec.com Subject: Mash & Sparge Times I got several good replies on my questions about mash and sparge times. Also, a couple of answers appeared in the Digest. Here is a summary of responses. My questions were about how long a mash and spare should take. Many thanks to: Spencer Thomas, Nial McGaughey, and Domenick Venezia. I have removed the names of the individuals who provided these responses, as I did not ask their permission to post. - -------- slower is better. A friend once did a 2 hour sparge (in a "Zapap" tun) and got 34 points. I can't wait that long. Slower is defined as reduce the flow rate. In other words, run the tap very slowly. - ---------- I used to infusion mash for 2 hours using a British pale malt for ESBs. I found the resultant beers "thinish". I then switched to a 60 minute mash and the body went up. I interpreted that as an indication that the dextrins and such that lend body were being degraded by my long mash times. >Should you just do an iodine test and not worry? More is happening during the mash than just starch conversion. Starch conversion is the first order effect but there are higher order effects as well. >have had extraction rates from 22 to 30. The 30 numbers are >when I use a _lot_ of water, ending up with 7 or 8 gallons, which >means a very long boil. Is 8 gallons a _lot_ of water? I collect 7.5-8.0 gals for a 5 gal batch. I "preboil" until I hit about 6.5 gal then start the 60 minute boil and hop schedule. With evaporation and thermal expansion by the time the wort is in the carboy and pitched I have 5-5.5 gal. Thermal expansion is about 5% at boiling, so what looks like 8 gals in the kettle is really 1.6 qts less. <<comments removed about local grain seller>> >recycled the first runnings (sometimes several times, just for kicks). How much do you have to recycle to get clear wort? I use a cylindrical Gott cooler and did not have much luck with a slotted manifold in it or in a food bucket and warm box. >Is slower better? I.e. turn the faucet way down? I never used to think so, but now I am not so sure. I do my sparges pretty slow. It may have more of an effect if your grain bed temp is too low and that is the REAL reason for mashout - not death to the enzymes. Raising the temp of the grain bed. >Is more water better? I end up with very long boils? Is a 2 hour boil "very long"? >Should I stir more? I don't stir much now, as it seems to cause the >heat to disappear faster and I'm also concerned about HSA. I generally do not stir my mash except at the beginning and at the end. Occasionally I stir once in the middle (30 min). My Gott with a styrofoam plug as well as the lid loses only 1C an hour. >Should I be perfectly satisified with 25 points? If you adjust your recipes to assume 25 pts-gal/lb who cares? If you get a kick out of optimizing the process as well as the beer then ... On the issue of "too much" and "too long". I look on my brewing sessions which last 10-12 hours as a mini-vacation. It is MY day, so I don't really care that it takes so long. And I do care about process efficiency for its own sake and for how it affects the final product. I mean seeing over 30 pt extraction gives me some satisfaction. But then some think me strange. - ---- RE: HSA- Hot Side Areation can only occur above yeast pitching temps. (IE sparging temps), its like it sounds, dont splash the hot wort during sparging/mashing and you wont have it! RE: mash times-I would gauge your point yield results as a better indicator of how long to have your mash times... (i generally mash about 1.5-2 hrs) longer mashing times=better conversion=more points/gallon RE: conversion factors: if you are getting about 30 points/gal with minimal fuss, stay with what you are doing, I would only change your process if you can slide on one process, and enhance another (IE getting a better crush on your grain instead of mashing for 3 hours or something) My (respondent's) process is like this: mash store ground grain in picnic cooler (same as yours)for about 2 hours, stirring about every 20 mins or so then doing 2 temp steps (temps depend on style of beer) taking first runnings for a decoction mash for both (boiling the first runnings and then adding them back to the mash to raise temp). I then sparge, trying to keep about 2" of water above the top of the grain as i'm sparging. adjust the outflow to comnpensate for this. I recycle the wort as I feel, (if i stir vigorously, or I'm using poorly ((floury)) ground grain) recycling more to clear cloudier wort. One of the most important mashing tips : know your grain, and who makes it. - ------ PS: Nial, I was unable to send you mail about your grain purchase, please email me again. Thanks again to everybody in HBDland! Ken B. Seattle Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 16:28:54 -0600 (CST) From: jehartzl at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu Subject: brewpubs any information on brewpubs in the madison, chicago, and iowa city areas would be highly appreciated. i had asked about the madison brewpubs in thursdays edition of the HBD, but unfortunately our system at the university went down and any mail that i received july 28-31st was lost forever. so if anyone sent anything, thank you and please resend. also i am also visiting chicago and iowa city so info on those areas would also be appreciated. i am also a intermediate hombrewer who loves bocks and stouts. any recipes that anyone has done and liked could you please send to my email address or to homebrewers digest(which is a great service by the way). thank you in advance jason hartzler - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason Hartzler 2540 Student Health Services jehartzl at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-2540 ===================================================================== Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 17:24:13 -0600 From: djones at iex.com (Douglas R. Jones) Subject: Hops OK. OK. So I do things differently! I have received several questions concerning my choice of hops (Saaz for bittering and Goldings for flavor). I got the recommendation wrong from the brew shop I am using now. So I either have 5 gallons of very unusal Pale Ale or 5 gallons of God-only-knows-what! Time will tell. I am actually kinda anxious to see what it will be like! Thanks again, Doug (who is off to learn more about hops lest the homebrew police lock me up) - ------------------------------------------------------------------- 'I am a traveler of | Douglas R. Jones both Time and Space' | IEX Corporation Led Zeppelin | (214)301-1307 | djones at iex.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 15:35:40 -0700 (PDT) From: John Loegering <loegerij at ucs.orst.edu> Subject: Saxer lemon lager This past Saturday I enjoyed many of the brews at the Oregon Brewer's Festival. One beer in particular impressed my wife: a lemon lager made by Saxer Brewing Co., Lake Oswego, Oregon. It was very light, crisp and a great lemon taste. Anyone have a guess at an extract recipe that would come even close? Thanks. John Loegering Loegerij at ucs.orst.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 20:14:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher V. Sack" <cvsack at mailbox.syr.edu> Subject: Re: Canned Beer, HBD #1489 (August 01, 1994) Henry, If your friends won't allow glass, bring a keg of homebrew and offer to fill up their rinsed out cans from the tap! Sincerely, Chris Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 19:16:00 -0700 From: pascal at netcom.com (Conan-the-Librarian) Subject: '-acation-va' programs Are OK "Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 11:53:10 CDT From: "Roger Deschner " <U52983 at UICVM.UIC.EDU> Subject: STOP THE DREADED VACATION PROGRAM (warning: flame!) "********* DO NOT ********* run "the vacation program", unless you first unsubscribe from HBD and any other list you're on. This is EXTREME bad manners! We don't want to waste an EXTREME amount of bandwidth on your ... < blah, blah, blah >" Ahem. It's perfectly OK to run the vacation program. I won't quibble about the value it does or does not add to electronic mail, in general. I want to point out two simple things : (1) For some reason the gentleman in question posted multiple copies of his article, over and over and over. His article was then published over and over and over. Shortly after this ended, _one_ message came from his vacation program, announcing that he was on vacation. This latter fact is not connected with the former state of affairs, at least, not as far as criticism of electronic mail use is concerned. (2) All "vacation" modes of email that I know of send exactly _one_ message to each address which send electronic mail to the address in "vacation" mode. The "vacationing" address responds with the pre-prepared message regarding the absence, adds that name to the list it keeps of addresses it has thus notified of the "vacation" ... and that's it. It doesn't send any more mail, even if you do. It would be _nice_, to unsubscribe ... but, heck, it would be _nice_ to not do a lot of things on the Home Brew Digest. Alas, this is a community space, and not only do the rules have to be acceptable to us all ... but they also need to make sense. PS : A tip of the hat to the HBD administrator for modifying the software to strip out email with the string "vacation" in the Subject: field ... using technology to solve what are essentially human problems ... - -- richard Law : The science of assigning responsibility. Politics : The art of _distributing_ responsibility. richard childers san francisco, california pascal at netcom.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 02 Aug 94 00:23:26 CDT From: Phil Miller <C616063 at MIZZOU1.missouri.edu> Subject: Plastic Fermenter Help Neede I am going to buy a carboy very soon, but was thinking of using my old (7month, 5 brew) plastic fermenter for primary or secondary fermentation. The problem is, I can't get the old-fermented-beer smell out of the plastic. I soaked it for 3 days using clorox and water, but this did not solve the problem. Should I pitch the plastic low and outside? Should I retire him, or keep the old veteran around? The coach needs your opinions, Brewers. __ / \ | | |--\ /--/ I'm not here for politicking. I'm here for the | | | |()/ \__ drugs.(Nancy Reagan) | | | |()\ \ \__/ \__/ |__/ /__/ Phil Miller c616063 at mizzou1.missouri.edu Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1490, 08/02/94