FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  some info about demerara... ("michael e cherry")
  cutting fine slots (re: copper siphon loop) (Dick Dunn)
  celis (Alan P Van Dyke)
  Breaking glass (Mark Worwetz)
  Re: Carboy handles (Carriers) (Dick Dunn)
  Racking off in public   8-O (COYOTE)
  Celis to Miller? NOT! (Louis K. Bonham)
  temperature controller (DONBREW)
  Aluminum again (McKee Smith)
  Erlenmeyer flasks (IZZYYQ6)
  INBOX Message (See Below) (Mailer.MC1)
  Any Cincinnati Brewpubs? (Jon Higby)
  Re: NY Beerfest 2 (John P. Curcio)
  Fusel Alcohols ("Craig Amundsen")
  Re:  kegging .... (Keith Frank)
  Re: anal requirement (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  beer allergy response (Turner)
  Celis Rumor (Tony Willoughby)
  wyeast 3068 (BURNELLT)
  Weihenstephen Yeast (Pronto Connections)
  More Cider Info ("JOHN FAULKS, FAULKS at BNG.GE.COM, 607-770 3959")
  Demerara=turbinado? (DrewStorms)
  Beer Fests/Red Beer (PSTOKELY)
  re: anal requirement (darrylri)
  next piece of equipment, Pilsner Urquell (ESMPD)" <gcunning at Census.GOV>
  Demerara: small correction (Matthew Sendbuehler)
  hop plant sources/moving hop plants (S29033)
  Primimg With Malt (DUBOVIK)
  Competition Bottles (COYOTE)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 15:14:29 EST
From: "michael e cherry" <michael_e_cherry at fnma.COM>
Subject: some info about demerara...


     
     In response to Ronald Dwelle's request (HBD #1531): 
     
     My Impossibly Large Dictionary of Silly Words (viz., my '66 
      450,000-word Webster's 3rd New International, Unabridged) has two 
      entries which may help:
          
             demerara sugar: a coarse light-brown raw sugar
          
             demerara greenheart:  (from Demerara County, British Guiana): 
             see BEBEERU
          
          
      which leads us to:
          
             bebeeru: a tropical South American evergreen tree (Nectandra   
             rodioei) - aka greenheart
          
      and then:
          
             bebeerine (also bibirine) : (G bebeerin, fr bebeerubaum        
             bebeeru tree) - a crystalline alkaloid C36H38N3O6 known in two 
             optically different forms; esp. the dextrorotatory form 
             obtained from the bark of the bebeeru and the pareira - see 
             curine
             
      lastly:
          
             pareira: root of a South American vine (Chondodendron 
             tomentosum) of the family Memispermacae that is used as a 
             diuretic, tonic, and aperient : any of several roots of 
             related plants
             
             curine:  a crystalline alkaloid C36H38N2O6 obtained from the 
             tube curare : levorotatory bebeerine
             
      Whew... it was just that sort of thing which brought my brief 
      premedical career to an inglorious halt, but then maybe you're a 
      more avid homebrewer than I.  (I'd stay away from curare, 
      though... )
          
      Mike Cherry
      g8umec at fnma.com

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Date: 20 Sep 94 11:42:55 MDT (Tue)
From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: cutting fine slots (re: copper siphon loop)

There was a suggestion to extend the idea of the siphon loop with finely
drilled holes by cutting fine slots instead, using a hacksaw.

If you want to cut very fine slots in metal (esp cutting across tubing like
this, where clearance isn't a problem) a jeweler's saw gives you a lot more
control.  It looks like a coping saw but it's got thumbscrew clamps for the
blade--because jeweler's saw blades don't have pin ends, because it lets
you use a piece of a broken blade, and because it makes it more convenient
to start a cut in a closed hole.  It's also got an adjustment for the
length of the saw (hence length of the blade used--again, also allows using
pieces of a broken blade).

The big plus of a jeweler's saw is that you can get blades covering quite
a range of widths of cut...starting from hacksaw width down to, well, the
finest blade I've got handy here is an 8/0 which has a blade width of
about 0.006" (about 0.15 mm).

Lubricate the blades with beeswax, and expect to break some anyway--that's
why they sell 'em by the dozen.
- ---
Dick Dunn    rcd at eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado USA
   ...Simpler is better.

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Date: Tuesday, 20 September 94 15:40:20 CST
From: Alan P Van Dyke <llapv at utxdp.dp.utexas.edu>
Subject: celis

Andy A in HBD 1531 heard rumors that Celis had been bought out by Miller.  I
haven't seen anything in the local daily about it, & Austinites are the type
to rise to arms about such things, anyway.  When the Spoetzel Brewery, which
is 90 miles away, was bought out by the guy that imports Corona, people had
hissy fits for weeks.

So no, unless I'm really out of touch, Celis has not been bought by Miller.
Pierre loves his little enterprise too much to do so, from what I understand.
Then again, he did make a hefty profit when he sold Hoegaarden to Interbrew...

Alan of Austin

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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 15:24:20 -0600 (MDT)
From: Mark_Worwetz at Novell.COM (Mark Worwetz)
Subject: Breaking glass

Howdy from Zion!

All of this talk about broken carboys and Ehrlenmeyer flasks has compelled
me to write of my horrible experience with broken glass.

One nice Saturday afternoon this July my beer decided that it was done
fermenting and asked me to bottle it.  I washed my bottles in the dishwasher,
sanitized my priming bucket, cooked up my priming sugar and settled down on
the floor of my kitchen to begin the happy tedium of filling two cases of
bottles.  After filling about a dozen bottles I heard the loud crash of a
breaking, full bottle of beer.  Then another, and another!  Glass was flying
everywhere!  I looked up just in time to see a man standing in my doorway
throwing bottles at me!  He just stood there throwing them, saying "This one
isn't fresh anymore either!" and laughing maniacally!!  I looked at the
broken glass all around me and, sure enough, they were old bottles of
Sam(tm) Adams(tm) Boston(tm) Lager(tm).  I was too busy dodging the 12oz
glass missiles he was hurling to get a good look at him, and after about
30 seconds, he was GONE!

I only mention this story now because I could of sworn I heard the same guy
doing the same thing on the radio!

And that's the TRUTH!!  SPFFFFFT!

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Worwetz
 "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than to have to
  have a frontal lobotomy!"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: 20 Sep 94 14:02:31 MDT (Tue)
From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: Re: Carboy handles (Carriers)

A while back, I surveyed the HBD readership for bad experiences with carboy
handles--the plastic-coated metal ring that fits the neck of a carboy,
with an attached plastic-coated metal loop handle.  I think everyone who's
ever used one of these things has wondered "are they really safe for a full
carboy?" and a score of "what-if"s.

I found plenty of folks who use the handles on their carboys, full as well
as empty, and have been using them for some time, but turned up *no*
instances of the neck of the carboy breaking or any other sort of cata-
strophic failure.  There was one report of a 6-gallon carboy showing some
stress cracks at the neck, but it didn't actually fail.  (I've been puzzled
over what to make of that, because it was the only report of its type, but
the person who reported it seemed to know what he was talking about and had
looked at it carefully.)

caa at com2app.c2s.mn.org (Charles Anderson) wrote:
> I've used them, and my basic advice for other people that use them is:
> Don't use them for holding up the full weight of the carboy.
> 
> I ended up with 5 gallons of good Cabernet Sauvignon on the floor of the
> basement because the "non-slip" rubber did...

I can't picture the accident.  The way the handles are designed, the issue
of "slipping" doesn't arise.  The ring of the handle fits around the neck
of the carboy, and there's no way it can slip off the neck unless it's not
snugged down the way it should be...it's made of 3/16" steel with a 1/4"
bolt to hold it in place.  Similarly, the handle is a loop that you curl
your hand around.  It doesn't matter if your hands are slippery; you've got
your fingers wrapped around the handle and the carboy would have to lift
itself up an inch or so to get over your fingertips.

In fact, the rubber (plastic actually) isn't there to prevent slipping;
it's for cushioning.  The plastic around the carboy ring is there to spread
the lifting pressure around the neck.  (This is why the handle should be
just snug, not gorilla-fisted down--if it's too tight, you'll compress the
plastic too much and create just the localized stress points the plastic is
designed to prevent.)  The plastic on the handle loop is to cushion the
loop in your hand.

Next, jeff.guillet at lcabin.com (Jeff Guillet) wrote:

> The only reason I don't use one is because they are only designed to 
> carry EMPTY carboys.  They're not strong enough to carry a carboy full
> of liquid.

As various folks have noted, they ARE strong enough to carry a carboy full
of liquid.  As for design...it's interesting that the handles don't carry
any warning NOT to use them to lift full carboys...at least they haven't
for many years and didn't the last time I looked.  It's also interesting
that (at least) one supplier--Williams' Brewing--advises using them only
for empty carboys.

Somehow, using them only for empty carboys seems to miss the point...it's
not that much of a challenge to handle an empty carboy compared to a full
one.  Why bother with a handle that's only useful for empty (but presents
such an obvious temptation to use it when full)?  Also, the design (as I
mentioned, 3/16" steel) would be overkill for lifting a 10-lb object.
- ---
Dick Dunn    rcd at eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado USA
   ...Simpler is better.

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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 15:13:51 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Racking off in public   8-O

 Sorry folks- I oopsed, and cancelled the wrong BLANK post.
 at least it hardly cost any bw!  Do I feel like a newbie today?!
Here's the real waste of bw for your viewing pleasure:

 From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
 Subject: Racking Off (in public! 8-O  )
 
 Subject:  Mike asks:    what is Racking ?
 
  ... Im man enough to not worry
 What is Racking? I have seen it mentioned in a few posts and was wondering if
 it is something that I have done already and not realized, or if it something
 I have not done and should be doing.
 
 
 * If you've been brewing you've probably done it, had it in your very own
 hand and didn't even know what it was! (like the sign over a urinal-
 Don't look up here- the jokes in your hand!)
 
 My wife always gets a giggle when I reach the end of a brew session and 
 announce to her that I'm "racking off now" in the garage and will be in
 for dinner soon.  She kindly offers to help, but I tell her I can handle
 it myself, but maybe she can help later!  :)
 
 Racking- on a more serious note: is.....drumroll please;  To Siphon.
 
 Comes at various stages of the brew process.
     Post boil- cool.  Rack sweet bittered wort to a primary fermenter.
     Post primary fermentation.  Rack to a secondary (optional step)
     Post ferment- pre bottling.  Rack from fermenter to bucket,prime,bottle.
     Alternative- Rack from fermenter to keg. Carbonate.
 
 Pretty much anytime you are pulling a siphon it's considered racking.
 Leads to childish humor like that I expressed above. Boys will be boys.
 
 Kinda reminds me of a cook crew I worked with on a camping trip.
 We were making chicken in a VERY smokey fire, wrapped ourselved with
 bandanas and glacier goggles ( I even had swim goggles) to avoid the smoke
 and laughed as we doused the chicken with BBQ sauce about how we were the
 best cook crew- and announced for all to hear that we were the
 
                 "M a s t e r  B a s t e r s"
 
 People wondered why we were so proud of such a thing.(esp the gals- guy thing?)
 Maybe it was that funny wrapped bag someone tossed on the fire...whatever.
 WE had a good time, and got awfully silly, plus made some damn good chicken!
 
     Ever try putting chicken in a brew?  A Fowl Ferment would result!
 
         Cuckles and Giggles from the Coyote. AKA  SLK6P at cc.usu.edu
 
 




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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 19:34:35
From: lkbonham at beerlaw.win.net (Louis K. Bonham)
Subject: Celis to Miller? NOT!

Agast at the rumor floated in HBD 1531 that Pierre Celis had sold
out to Miller, I called the Celis people in Austin today to get some
confirmation.  After they quit laughing and rolling on the floor,
they told me that said rumor is absolutely, positively, false. 
Beer lovers of the world, rejoice! 

They did confirm, however, the reports that Celis *will* begin
marketing a frambois in late October. 


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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 94 23:12:03 EDT
From: DONBREW at aol.com
Subject: temperature controller

       I too noticed the Radio Shack temperature controller module (277-123)
but, alas I was told that it had been discontinued sometime  in 1993.  But
since the recent post about it, I decided to have my local guy call National
Parts to check on it.  It was still available on 9/19/94 at $19.95. I ordered
one, we'll see!
      Am I the only one out here that has thought to boil in a PVC bucket
with a water heater element installed?  I use a cut off 15 gallon 1.8 mm.
drum, cut off the top, install boiler drain,  screw a 4500 W low density
element in the side, control the heater with an electric stove surface burner
"infinite control".  Works good for me. 
     On another temp. note, has anybody else thought about building an
insulated box, get one of those old type de-humidifiers ( with radiators not
coils) pull the radiators apart (very carefully) put the cold side inside the
box, add a fan to circulate the cold wired to the control solenoid, I have
used several different thermostats that work in to different but acceptable
degrees.
     Also I finally made Rodney Moriss'  RIMS controller work by substituting
a 6 amp, 400 volt triac from Radio Shack for the 15 amp, ? volt one he used.
Hasn't blown up after some 100 hours or more. I also used PVC pipe and tube
for the plumbing and heater housing BTW.

Don



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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 02:07:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: McKee Smith <MCKSMI at delphi.com>
Subject: Aluminum again

In the most recent issue of Zymurgy, there was an insert page on 
"Brewing you first batch" which I passed on to a friend who is just 
starting out.  He has since called me to point out that under the 
equipment section, under brewpots, it says "Do NOT use 
aluminum.S 

Does anyone know why this is on there?  I hope it is not yet 
another case of  "Aluminum causes alzhimers" phobia again.  I 
thought there had been enough information to drive a stake 
through that myth.

McKee Smith                          
Irving, Texas, USA                   EMail:     Mcksmi at Delphi.com
                                     



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Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 94 00:21 PDT
From: IZZYYQ6 at MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU
Subject: Erlenmeyer flasks

In response to a recent request(HBD 1527), I use small Erlenmeyer flasks
(250 ml) on a regular basis(not for beer), and have broken one by
heating over a direct flame & then cooling via cold water...
They are rather thin glass & really aren't designed to be used over
a flame.  Get yourself a wire screen w/ a ceramic/clay center -- I
can't for the life of me remember the proper name for them, but they
should be readily available from a lab supplier(that's where I got
mine).  It's basically a piece of wire screen about 8 inches square,
with a circle about 5 inches in diameter in the middle, made out
of clay or ceramic or something of that nature.  The flame hits the
circle & is evenly distributed, therefore the flask is never directly
touching it and won't crack.

Don't cool the flask too quickly, allow it to do so naturally, since
most glass is sensitive to having the temperature change too quickly.

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Date: 21 Sep 94 02:44:21 U
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Subject: Homebrew Digest #1532 (September 21, 1994)



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Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 16:38:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: unisql!jonh at cs.utexas.edu (Jon Higby)
Subject: Any Cincinnati Brewpubs?

I will be in Cincinnati for 2 weeks (Oct 2 - Oct 14) and hope that there
are some brewpubs to past the time at.

I already looked at the pub FAQ, the only brewpub listed there is
apparently closed.  Any help - please!

Jon
- -- 
Jon Higby  ----   UniSQL, Inc.   ----   email: jon.higby at unisql.com

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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 08:35:38 -0400
From: John P. Curcio <jpc at philabs.Philips.COM>
Subject: Re: NY Beerfest 2 


On 19 Sep 94 22:24:25 EDT  74021.376 at compuserve.com wrote:

> I do not know if this has been posted yet, but I am falling behind in 
> reading the HBD and yet had to comment on the NY Beerfest 2.

> After attending last years Beerfest, I was looking forward to an 
> interesting day tasting and talking beer.  And after reading in the Ale 
> Street News that the Port-O-John problem was going to be taken care of 
> this year (1/2 hour waits for relief last year), I thought it would be 
> perfect.  Boy, was I wrong.

[details deleted]

My take on the event is exactly the same as yours.  I was severely
disappointed, for many reasons.  About the only thing you didn't
mention was the BudMilloors crowd that was there (suprisingly large in
numbers) commenting on how "this Celis stuff sucks" or "I had to dump
out the Chimay-- it tasted like crap."

> All right, I've said my piece, as rambling and uncoherent as it is.  
> Thanks for your patience.  Does anyone know how to contact Steve Hindy 
> or any of the other organizers?  Perhaps if enough people express their 
> discontent now, changes can be made that will allow us to enjoy 
> Beerfest 3.  Otherwise, I would have to believe that the Beerfest will 
> die a quick death due to too many unhappy customers.

I wrote a letter (mailed yesterday) to the Fund for the Borough of
Brooklyn, the sponsor (and beneficiary) of the event.  I mentioned the
problems, and said that I knew of at least 30 people who wouldn't
attend next year unless these problems were addressed.  Their mailing
address:

               The Fund for the Borough of Brooklyn
               30 Flatbush Avenue Suite 427
               Brooklyn NY 11217

I suppose that you could also call their number ((718) 855-7882) and
register a complaint, but a letter seems like it would do more good...

 -JPC

 -<=>- Just say NO! to Budmilloors...   Support your local MICROBREWERY -<=>-
John P. Curcio  jpc at philabs.philips.com  Philips Labs  Briarcliff Manor, NY
   "If nothing beats a Bud, given the choice, I'd take the nothing..."
   "No goats, no boats, no motorcars, not a single 'yes-siree!'"  -BH

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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 07:45:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Craig Amundsen" <amundsen at molbio.cbs.umn.edu>
Subject: Fusel Alcohols

Hi -

I seem to recall someone saying that fusel alcohols result from allowing the
beer to ferment in the presence of the trub. I recently acquired a copy of
_The Practical Brewer_ (put out by the Master Brewers Association of the 
Americas). I've been making my way through it during breaks from studying for
my Orals. Just yesterday I read this (on p. 106): 

    Individual amino acids provide the carbon skeleton for fusel alcohols
    and esters via the Ehrlich mechanism. Addition of leucine to wort 
    gives beers high in isoamyl alcohol and isoamyl acetate. Threonone
    and isoleucine provide optically active amyl alcohol, and valine 
    gives isobutyl alcohol and isobutyl acetate.

Based on the above it seems that getting rid of the break material will have
no effect on fusel alcohols since individual amino acids will be in solution.

This observation made me happy because my latest batch (currently in the 
primary) saw the first use of my immersion chiller and I made no effort
to remove the break before transferring to the carboy. It may be that the break
will have some other deleterious effect on the beer, but I am not worried 
about its contribution to fusel alcohol production.

 - Craig
  amundsen at molbio.cbs.umn.edu

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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 08:20:33 -0500
From: keithfrank at dow.com (Keith Frank)
Subject: Re:  kegging ....

Andrew W. Baucom writes:

>Question:  What CO2 pressure/time-length is needed to artificially carbonate
>5 gallons O'beer?
>
>(the keg is refrigerated, the CO2 is not, and the beer was primed with ~1 cup
> malt extract for several weeks and had pressure when I initially tapped it)
>
>PS...the beer tastes great...just flat...

No problem.  Pressure up to 35 to 40 psi and shake for several minutes.  
Then let the beer settle for several hours before bleeding down the 
pressure and sampling.

Regards,
Keith Frank (keithfrank at dow.com)

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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 09:31:16 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: anal requirement

The idea is that uniquely identifiable bottles may be recognized by a
judge as having come from a person he/she knows, and that this may
then affect the judging.  Same with stuff on the caps.  I could tell
my friend "I entered my number 34 in the Vienna category," and then
he'd just have to look for the 34 on the cap to know it's mine.

Also, small/big bottles are a pain in the butt to store when you're
trying to pack a few hundred beers into your basement before the
competition begins.  If all the bottles are 12-oz longnecks, then you
can just put them uniformly in cases.

I don't know what's the problem with clear bottles, though.

For what it's worth, I've been associated with two competitions here
(Mazer Cup Mead, and MI state fair) that have no such restrictions on
bottles, and we haven't had a problem.  But you still get the idiots
who paste a fancy label on the bottle with their name, etc. on it.
The registrar for this year's MI state fair spent too much time
soaking off labels.


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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 08:34:41 EST
From: turner at cel.cummins.com (Turner)
Subject: beer allergy response

First of all seeing an allergist is a definite recomendation. By narrowing
down the search (beer) the doctor can perform the scratch test better. As
a victim of a still unknown allergy I can say that shooting in the dark on
those tests is expensive and has low probability of success.

Several people also warned about the possibility of anaphalactic (sp?)
shock. I have had this lecture from my doctor and carry an Epinephrine
pen to counter a severe allergic reaction. For those unfamiliar with it,
this is what can _KILL_ people, most commonly from bee stings. This is not
something to take chances with. 

The end result from all the replies is that just about anything in beer can
cause an allergic reaction. Based solely on the responses, the leading
suspects are:

     1) hops
     2) yeast (sometimes specific strains of yeast)
     3) grain/grass (barley/corn/rice/wheat)
     4) chemical additives (head stabilizers etc.)
     5) fermentation dyproducts (acetaldehyde/protein)

My friend eats homemade bread all the time (farm boy) and drinks wine, so
yeast is an unlikely candidate. This is good since home brew would have
considerrably more yeast than commercial brews. He eats corn/rice and has
no problem bailing hay, or with traditional pollen/ragweed allergies, so
an overall sensitivity to grain/flowers is unlikely.

He is going to see an allergist and wants to try one of my VERY low hopped
brews. If it shows promise I will try a no hops brew.

My (and my friends) thanks to everyone who responded to my question concerning
a friends allergy to beer. Once again this forum has provided valuable
information not readily available from any other source.

  John Pedlow <TKSJOHN at UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
  Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
  zoz at cs.adelaide.edu.au (Kaishakunin)
  romand at dialogic.com (Dan Roman)
  edmondso at athena.msfc.nasa.gov (St. Rich Brewing Co., Huntsville, AL)
  Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
  laszlo at helix.nih.gov (M. Andrew Newman)
  Bryan Kornreich <bkornrei at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
  LBRISTOL at SYSUBMC.BMC.COM
  Vanek at aepco.com
  Allen Akin <akin at tuolumne.asd.sgi.com>
  "Bob Knetl" <bob_knetl at amber.spawar.navy.mil>
  "Terence McGravey {91942}" <tpm at swl.msd.ray.com>
  ggarnett at qrc.com (Guy Garnett)

Steve Turner                                         turner at cel.cummins.com

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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 09:49:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tony Willoughby <tonyw at sw.stratus.com>
Subject: Celis Rumor


Andy <Anderso_A at hq.navsea.navy.mil> asked about a Celis rumor:

          [...]

          Over the week-end I was told by two
          completely different, and reasonably reliable, sources that
          Pierre Celis has just recently sold his Austin operation to
          Miller.  

          [...]

I forwarded this to a coworker who knows Pierre's son-in-law, Peter.  Peter
is involved with the day to day running of the brewery, so he could also
be considered "reasonably reliable" :^).  During a phone call to Texas 
this rumor was quickly squashed.

Just contributing to the rumor with a Friend-Of-A-Friend story...

- --
                              | He that buys land buys many stones.
Tony Willoughby               |    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
tonyw at sw.stratus.com          | He that buys eggs buys many shells,
                              |    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.
                              |                       - An Old English Saw

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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 09:57:22 -0500 (EST)
From: BURNELLT <BURNELLT at ropt1.am.wyeth.com>
Subject: wyeast 3068

Mike Hansen comments that he felt that Wyeast 3068 should have been used in his
dunkelwiezen bock for a more authentic flavor.This may be true but I used 3068
in a dunkelwiezen and a lot of the banana and clove flavor that I had in
previous wiezens seemed to be covered up by the flavors contributed
by the grains(I could barely taste this character). I would guess that this
would be even more of a problem with a bock because of the increased hops. Sam
Adams dunkelwiezen does have nice flavor from the yeast, but I did not have
luck in replicating it. I may have used to much chocholate malt. Any recipes
out there?

Ted Burnell  



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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 08:59:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: Pronto Connections <tmmpci at Mcs.Net>
Subject: Weihenstephen Yeast

Hey fellow Brewers,

Anyone have any particulars on the Weihenstephen yeast strain from ??? 
Wyeast. 

Also requesting an all grain raspberry wheat beer recipe?  Using fresh 
ingrediants only!!!

tia,

Todd

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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 9:53:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: "JOHN FAULKS, FAULKS at BNG.GE.COM, 607-770 3959" <FAULKS at bng.ge.com>
Subject: More Cider Info


There have been a few requests for hard cider now that the apple 
season is here.

Some suggestions to get started. The quick and easy way is to use
fresh  cider without any additives, stir in a half to a pound of white
sugar  per gallon to get the gravity up to 1070 or more, and ferment
with champagne  yeast. If allowed to go all the way (FG approx 0995)
it will make a fine dry cider. Give it 3-4 months to ferment out and
bottle (rack to a secondary if you must - it makes little difference
IMHO). Prime the bottles for sparkling cider. 

Variations - use campden tabs in the fresh cider and wait 24 hrs
before pitching your yeast starter. This will help decide which yeast
are really going to do all the work. Wine and ale yeasts also work
well as can natural yeasts, i.e. fresh cider, sugar and let it go off
by itself. 

Had a friend make Scrumpy from  the Cats Meow - something went wrong -
came out like gasohol, so don't add meat. But you can use brown sugar,
honey and any other more traditional sweetner to bring up the gravity.

More sugar will produce a drier cider with less apple flavor, so I
don't usually target OG's over 1100. You really need more than 1050 to
produce enough alcohol to preserve the final cider. The lower OG's can
have a wonderful apple aroma and flavor. 

For sweet ciders, stop the fermentation at about 1015 or so with some
campden tabs. Wait 24 hrs and bottle. Some people add condensed apple
juice to add sweetness, but I haven't tried it. 

Don't boil anything. You can also use 1 gal glass bottles for mini
batches and experiemnts. 

There is an excellent book that I have, but it's not here and the name
escapes me (red cover - deals with growing trees, blending - all kinds
of recipies, history etc.) Email me for the name and I will find it. 

Isn't there a Cider Digest out there ? That might also help the
curious (and me too) 


Have fun

John Faulks


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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 10:19:56 EDT
From: DrewStorms at aol.com
Subject: Demerara=turbinado?

All these descriptions of demerara sugar sound suspiciously like turbinado
("sugar in the raw"): golden-brown,1-2mm granules, ....  I also know that
turbinado is fairly popular in the U.K., and that it is what brown sugar
(white+molasses) is attempting to emulate: raw, unrefined cane sugar.  So, my
question is does anyone know if they are synonymous, and if not, has anyone
used turbinado in brewing?  It would seem to be one step up from corn sugar
as an adjunct.  (and I've got a bulk source 100' from my back door)

drew


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Date:          Wed, 21 Sep 1994 09:49:10 EDT
From: PSTOKELY at ea.umd.edu
Subject:       Beer Fests/Red Beer

    Jim Keesler wrote of his problems with the NYFest.
    
    Most of the beer/food fests held in large cities are 
overattended. The recent Washington D.C. Food and Beer Fest, for 
instance, featured several excellent microbrews and several 30 - 45 
minute waits to get them. If it weren't for the mini-seminars held in 
the nearby Capitol City Brewery, it would have been a waste of time.
My first response was to locate the organizer's table and sign up to 
help out next year. Getting the District government to close off TWO 
city blocks is work for several people for many weeks.

    Of course my second response, after a certain fellowship expires, 
is to move away from the city to where the beer fests are like 
picnics.
**********************

    A question for Algis: how much roasted barley do you use to get 
your red color? For instance in a 5 gal. batch  with a grain bill of 
Klages and light crystal. TIA

Paul S. in College Park, Maryland           "Look out! Behind you!"


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Date: Wed Sep 21 07:48:04 1994
From: darrylri at microsoft.com
Subject: re: anal requirement

ulick at ulix.rad.nd.edu writes:
> What is wrong with clear bottles, big bottles, Bass bottles, overrun caps?
 
While I agree with your plaint about clear bottles, as someone
who has helped out with a number of competitions, I can
unhesitatingly say that big bottles are a huge hassle. They
don't fit in standard cases, so they don't stack well, which
takes additional fridge space, which is *always* in short
supply.
 
> While it is understandable that the nationals have standards to lend an aura,
> this is hardly the case for a competition in Podunk, NY, or whereever.  And
> I know the judges are just as anal, because one once made a big stink about
> my 'clear violation' sending a bottle with raised lettering.  Yet another
> reasaon not to pay people to drink my beer.
 
Judges do attack these things with more vigor than is called for,
in some cases.  (I'm reminded of the hue and cry of those poor
folks who were weak enough to succumb to using green bottles
instead of brown and then got comments about light struck
flavors, even though most hb'ers never let their precious beer
get exposed to light.) Actually, this is something that the
contest registrar should be responsible for, not the judges.  

But to maintain the appearance of impartiality, it is necessary
to limit the variances in the container.  And not just from the
judges, either.  I've heard a recent story where an onlooker
recognized their bottle as placing first in a category, and then
started participating in the BOS round when a couple judges
wanted to drop it out of the competition.  

Most competitions allow overrun caps, once you take a Magic
Marker to them.  

Basically, most of the rules are useful and important.  If
you've worked on a competition you know that by stating these
things up front it eliminates a great deal of potential
difficulty when the competition is under way.  Without such
limits, you'd be amazed what you'll get, and there's no way to
eliminate judge bias when things get strange.  These rules
aren't *that* anal.

		--Darryl Richman


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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 10:29:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Jerry Cunningham (ESMPD)" <gcunning at Census.GOV>
Subject: next piece of equipment, Pilsner Urquell

Hello Brewmasters,

I have a very _limited_ budget. I'm slowly adding brewing equipment to my 
stockpile, and my question for all you experts out there is this: What would
have a bigger (positive) impact on my brews, a carboy to use as a secondary
or a wort chiller (imersion type). My current set-up is is a plastic primary
with bottling bucket, and I'm only making ales so far (although I may try a
lager or two this winter, if my basement gets cold enough), extract only.
- -------
A while back, someone posted asking if anybody knew how to read the code on
Pilsner Urquell bottles. I never saw a reply (and I lost the guys address).
Does anybody know? BTW, after reading much hoopla from various sources - rcb,
hbd,TNCJOHB,M.J.'s Beer Companion,etc. - concerning P-U, I finally tried one
recently, and if that's what it tastes like after crossing the Atlantic I'm 
moving to friggin Czechoslavakia (sp?). If you've never tried it, do yourself
a favor! :*) 
- -------
Thanks,

Jerry Cunningham
Annapolis, MD


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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 10:53:02 +0059 (EDT)
From: Matthew Sendbuehler <sendbu at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca>
Subject: Demerara: small correction


In one of several responses to the 'what is Demerara sugar'
question, I wrote:

>>>look for large (1-2 mm) clear crystals of a light golden colour.<<<

Several of the other responses jogged my memory and made
me realize that I was thinking of Turbinado, not Demerara,
AFAIK, Turbinado is even harder to find, but is probably even 
more useful for a pale ale.

BTW, the differences between these sugars is not just in the
level of refinement, but where they come from. Of course,
once you get down to a white powder origin doesn't make much
if any difference, but before that stage cane sugars definitely
have distinctive local flavors. Two experiments will bear 
this out: 1) sample some of these different specialty 
sugars; 2) sample high-grade (estate) rum from a variety of places.
In both cases, you'll see that all sugar, and all molasses,
is not created equal.

I'll leave it to you to decide which experiment to try...

And for heaven's sake, if you're going to add molasses to
your beer, shop around a bit, find one with a taste you like, 
and *go easy with the stuff.*  Personally I'd avoid this
route altogether.


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Date: 21 Sep 1994 10:47:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: S29033%22681 at utrcgw.utc.com
Subject: hop plant sources/moving hop plants

Kevin [KFONS at china.qgraph.com] asks where to find hop plants.  I can only offer
one source (and I am sure there are other readers who know of more sources).  I
ordered my hop plants from Nichols Nursery in Oregon, Tel (503) 928-9280.  I
have ordered 4 different types from them (commonly used in brewing); cascade,
tettnanger, willamette, clusters.  Other hop types were found through
homebrewing contacts - I traded my hop cuttings with another person with
different hop varieties.  a couple of years of growth produces enough rhizomes
to allow you to spare a few cuttings for trade.

Tim McNerney asks about hop transplanting.  I too started some hops at a
previous residence and 2 years later we moved to our present location.  We
moved in the Fall and I dug the hop roots up (with some of the surrounding
soil) and transferred the whole mess to the new house.  I dug a hole in the new
location and filled it with the soil I gathered from the old location.  I then
looked at the hop roots and cut the rhizomes into 6-8 inch lengths (not all of
the roots had the characteristic buds on them and were apparently not
transplantable).  I then planted the rhizomes in the place I had prepared. 
They wintered over fine and came up this spring.  Transplanting does interrupt
the previous vigorous growth but I am sure next year the hops will be back to
normal.  The friend that I trade cuttings with actually digs his up and cuts
them into 6-8 inch lengths and stores them in a plastic bag in his fridge for
planting the following year.  I don't know if he digs all of the roots or just
some of them so that he can manage or steer the spreading of the plants (they
tend to spread everywhere!).  So in my experience and the experience of a
friend, you can either transplant them now, dig them up and store them (make
sure they don't dry out), or leave them and transplant in the spring.  I hope
this helps.

Lance Stronk
Sikorsky Aircraft, Straford, CT

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Date: 21 Sep 1994 11:38:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: DUBOVIK at hsdwl.utc.com
Subject: Primimg With Malt

I've primed my beer with both malt and corn sugar. The beer (same batch)
tasted the same for either method. Does any one else have different 
results priming with malt. Any pro's con's with either method.

Responses greatly appreciated

Brewing In Ct.

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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 10:03:41 -0600 (MDT)
From: COYOTE <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Competition Bottles

Ulick whines about competitions having rules and regulations.

Waaaaaaaaaaah.

The WHOLE point here isn't to quibble over whether YOU got a complaint 
about YOUR bottle or not (BTW- did you place with that brew- I wonder!)
but to ensure equal treatment and anonimity to all entries.

It is the BEER that is being judged, not the cutesiness of the homemade
labels, or the creativity in naming a brew.  Competitions are BLIND
tasting.  If bottles, or caps are unique they may enlighten the judges
as to the originator of that brew, hence the potential for unfare judging.

It's not like you don't have a chance to be aware of the rules ahead of time.
They are CLEARLY stated in every competition announcement I've seen.
So ignorance of the rules is NO defense.

Clear bottles are subject to skunking (green too, but not as bad) so that's
for the brewers protection.  Delabeling, and caps, and raised lettering are
to "unidentify" an entry.  Size is semi flexible, but limited to a useful
quanitity.  I mean- what are the judges going to do if you send all 22 oz
bottles!  They might get unfailry drunk off one entry and not be capable of
"testing" the remainder!

And no-  You couldn't pay me to drink your beer either, no matter what kind
of bottle it came in.

	      Worthless babble from the Coyote.


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1533, 09/22/94