FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  RE: long ferments (Jim Busch)
  Beerstone Removal (Mark Younge)
  Corny Kegs (Jeff Stampes)
  TSP for bottle cleaning (bobc)
  Buying from Graingers (Bob Jones)
  CO2 cylinders/gott again (by gott) ("Charles S. Jackson")
  strange kraeusen (Sherman Mohler)
  Yeast Culturing ("Robert W. Mech")
  Phenol Question Summary (John R. Boatman)
  Re: Bottle Durability (Jim Ancona)
  For Publication ("Penn, Thomas")
  Re: Propane cooking indoors (wegeng.xkeys)
  Plastic Bottles for beer? (Mark E. Thompson)
  RE: Efficiency & volume (1st allgrain) (Jim Dipalma)
  how do I keg? (Russell Fusco)
  Wyeast 1098? (mdemers)
  Maryland Homebrew Laws ("Paul Stokely")
  dead yeast, and sweet wort ("Brian Ellsworth, 203-286-1606")
  CAMRA books (Jim Grady)
  bounced reply.... diacetyl, beginner brewing adventures (uswlsrap)
  Kegging FAQ up for grabs (Dion Hollenbeck)
  Brew Pubs in Minneapolis and Chicago Areas (David Oakman)
  My Virgin MASH! ("Timothy P. Laatsch)
  Off line discussion & Propane Burners (David Smucker)
  First Brew ("Shane Allen Snyder")
  Porter Recipie (BToddL69)
  Celis Yeast? (BToddL69)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 15:52:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: RE: long ferments

Ron writes:

Subject: a fermenting-time  observation

<Up until last September, I had made a total of 31 batches of 
<all-grain, using a single-stage fermentor (carboy)--no primary / then 
<secondary. Because I was always getting some sludge in the bottom of 
<the carboy and because of G.Fix's notes on fermentor geometry and 
<other comments about open fermenting, I decided to try out the more 
<normal two-stage fermentor, doing a primary in a big open stainless 
<pot and then racking to a carboy for the secondary. I've done three 
batches that way.
<
<My observation--I am getting tremendously longer ferments. The first 
<batch took a total of 32 days to ferment out. The second batch, 
<started October 12, is still bubbling merrily away on November 4. The 
<third batch, started October 19, is still wild. This is three 
different yeasts (california lager, american ale, canadian ale) in 
<three different types (steam, pale ale, dirty stout). I don't know yet 
<if there's any difference in the beers.
<

SOmething is wrong here.  Are the FGs changing radically?  Is it still
generating some CO2, or a lot, ie how much drop in SG per day/week is
happening?  Try sticking with one yeast type and keep good notes on
the brew's creation.  It could be: yeast (handling, type, amount),
wort (content of fermentables, type of malts, processing) and oxygen.
Its probably not the fermenter unless you are leaving too much sanitizer
around and this could be killing the yeast.


Good luck!

Jim Busch

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Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 14:16:38 -0800
From: myounge at mobile.com (Mark Younge)
Subject: Beerstone Removal

Regarding the Memo on buildup of beerstone on kettles and chillers.

1. As to whether the buildup would harbor any spooge I'm not sure,  it
appears to be a mineral build up with some porosity.  However,  your one
hour boil would most probably kill anything on the kettle,  as for the
chiller I'm not sure but one could reason that excessive buildup of
beerstone on your chiller could effect the efficency of heat transfer from
the wort,  so I would clean it.

2.  How to get rid of it.  I have had good luck using natural acids such as
vinegar and lemon juice but these still require some elbow grease.  I seem
to remember an article in Brewing Techniques about caring for stainless
steel which gave me the idea to try the natural acids.  A 50/50 mixture
seems to work best on my ceramic kettle.  Give it a try and let me know how
it works.



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Date: Mon, 7 Nov 94 08:45:27 MST
From: jeff at neocad.com (Jeff Stampes)
Subject: Corny Kegs


I feel like I've been sending the same exact message to an awful lot of
people via Email recently, so it's time to go public and Add this tidbit
to the ever-growing reservoir of fishes (err...brewing knowledge.  Hey
you!  Put that bathing suit back on . ..  this is a public beach!)

Economical ways to find cheap-o 5 gallon kegs.  Remembert that these
*USED* to be the norm in restaurants, but no more.  Everyone uses 
those cardboard boxes with the collapsable PET containers.  So who do you
think has a lot of used kegs on their hands that no one wants?

(Da-daa-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-daaaa-da-da-da-da-da Jeapordy Theme)

Time's up.  How about used restaurant equipment suppliers?  I found
one not to far from home that had about 14 sitting outside that 
were occupying space.  He was willing to give them all to me for $5/each,
soa  friend & I bought 12 in all (2 were pretty beat up).  Look in
your yellow pages and I'll bet you have a few listed.

 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jeff Stampes			|  "And on the Eighth Day God
jeff at neocad.com			|    created Homebrew . . . and
Boulder, Co  			|    hasn't been heard from since"
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"God wrote this book, and It sez here in this book God made us in
 his image, so if we're dumb, then God is Dumb, and a little ugly
 on the side!" - Frank Zappa
 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

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Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 18:27:32 -0800 (PST)
From: bobc at hsmpk14a-93.Eng.Sun.COM
Subject: TSP for bottle cleaning

I've used TSP often in the past.  I only use it for an initial cleaning
of a bottle to remove grunk from unknown pasts and to remove the label.

After a multi-day TSP soak, I rinse the bottles using a jet sprayer connected
to hot water.  In my case, I run a hose from the bottom outlet of my
hot water heater, with a jet sprayer attached on the end.  I do a pretty
thorough rinse, and this seems to have always left me with clean bottles.

At bottling time, I run all of the bottles through the dishwasher with
no soap.

	Bob C.

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Date: Mon, 07 Nov 1994 19:36:15 +0800
From: bjones at bdt.com (Bob Jones)
Subject: Buying from Graingers

I have bought stuff from Graingers for years. Dion is right that they like
to do business with a business. Their list of business that have accounts
with them is in the thousands. If you have a job or a student, your company
or school  probably is listed with them. Now just go on in and order what
you want. When they ask who its for, tell them the company name, but you
will be paying cash. They then will charge you tax and your gone. They are
happy and so are you. 

Works well for me, should for you. Snag one of their cataloges while your there.

Bob Jones
bjones at bdt.com



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Date:     Mon, 7 Nov 94 23:18:05 CST
From: "Charles S. Jackson" <sjackson at ftmcclln-amedd.army.mil>
Subject:  CO2 cylinders/gott again (by gott)

My fellow brewers

     A quick local note to any who lives or will be traveling about the east
coast of FL.  This past week I found a restaurant supply house that had 20# CO2
cylinders for $25.00, some even had regulators.  I thought that was a great 
price. E-mail for the address.  No affliiation, etc, blah, blah.
     There a recent request for info on modifying the gott to accept the
whirly-gig sparge arm and what to do about the spigot/outflow.  If the spigot
is removed it can be replaced by a #3 drilled stopper.  3/8 copper tubing must
have the same OD as the rigid plastic tube I use in my blow-off as it fits
quite well in the stopper.  So a stopper, some left over copper tubing, a piece
of hose and the clamp...outflow without the spigot.  To mount the whirly -gig
sparge arm I drilled the lid to accept another #3 stopper and mounted the 
sparge arm in this stopper. Seems to work in the hot water test runs so far.

Steve
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brewing beer is far more exciting when it is both a hobby AND a felony!
                                            The Alabama Outlaw

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Date: 08 Nov 94 01:32:14 EST
From: Sherman Mohler <73304.504 at compuserve.com>
Subject: strange kraeusen

Gentlebrewers,

I have been lurking on your listserver for a few months, and after several 
dozen sucessful batches over the last few years, I finally have a situation 
that I would love some feedback from your collective wisdom.

A friend made a honey-basil ale several months ago that was just fantastic, so
I tried the recipe: 
1 lb  crystal malt 25 min seep at 180'f
3 lbs light dry malt
3 lbs honey ( yes, more than Papazian likes, but my friend's was tasty :)
2 tblsp yeast nutrient to compensate for the honey
1 oz basil 50% at boil, 50% finish
2 oz hallertaur 50% at boil, 50% finish
1 teaspoon Irish moss

When I went to seal up the wort, the new stopper I bought ended up slipping 
flush into the neck of the new carboy, then dropped into the wort when I tried
to dig it out! ( Pride dictates that I point out I bought the two as a set the
store owner had put together ). I borrowed a stopper and within 1/2 hour had 
the wort sealed up ( of course I covered it in the interim). 
Five days later the wort finally started a reasonable fermentation, but there 
is a fine-white froth along with the normal kraeusen. There is no foul odor, 
and an excursion on day 7 with a sterilized baster revealed a still sweet wort
with no foul taste. What could be the cause of the slow start and white 
bubbles ? Infection ? Yeast nutrient ? Basil ? How long will it be 'till I can
determine if I have an enfection or some strange wild yeast ? Papazian seems 
to hint that I would know an infection by now by smell or taste, and doesn't 
say what an infection might look like. So.. what do ya'll think ?
Thanks in advance for the feedback !

- --Sherm




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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 04:54:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Robert W. Mech" <rwmech at eagle.ais.net>
Subject: Yeast Culturing

I have been reading for some time now how you can culture your own yeast, 
and/or culture yeast from beer (previous or other peoples).  I picked up 
the YEAST faq, (before you all tell me to read it :-) ) and it seems like 
a VERY complicated process.  At least in the FAQ it seems complicated.  I 
do not have an autoclave, nor a pressure cooker.  2 Things which seem 
required to culture yeast.

What Id like to do is purchase the more expensive liquid yeasts that are 
available at my homebrew shop, however $5 - $10 per batch just for yeast 
seems quite high.  I wouldnt mind it so much if I could culture it for 
future batches.  

So here are my questions:

1. Can I culture the yeast in a simpler method.  Does somone out there do 
it "By the seat of their pants" or have a simplified method of doing it?

2. Is it worthwhile to do?  I brew about 5 Gallons every week or so, is 1 
or 2 weeks enough time to culture enough yeast for the next batch.

3. Does yeast quality degrade when I culture it myself?  Many people have 
said that the liquid vs. dry yeast is so significan that they will never 
go back to dry again.  So will my cultures be as good as the liquid I bought?

4. What parts do I need EXACTLY to culture the yeast, and what is 
overkill.  I would prefer not having to buy an autoclave, pressure 
cooker, or other rather expensive gadgets to culture the yeast.  

5. Is this REALLY thrifty enough to go ahead with.  While compileing the 
"Frugal Brewers Guide To Brew Aids" people keep telling me "make your own 
yeast" however the process in the yeast faq seems QUITE expensive for 
everything they reccomend.  This doesnt sound thrifty or frual to me.

6. How time consuming is this?  Right now im spending 1/2 of my sunday 
brewing beer.  Id not like it to take all day from start to finish. :-)
Id like to have a little free time to DRINK homebrew in the course of the 
day as well.

Pleast dont point me to the Yeast faq, ive read it, I want answers from 
people who do this on a regular basis, cheaply and efficently, not 
chemists.  

Robert


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Date: Tue, 08 Nov 1994 8:38:15 EST
From: John R. Boatman <c23jrb at kopt0002.delcoelect.com>
Subject: Phenol Question Summary

Thanks to the five or so that replied to my question about a slight
plastic aftertaste.

All responders suggested that it was chloro-phenol, a result of chlorine in
the tap water or insufficient rinsing of bleach sanitizer. In my case there
is a high probability of insufficient rinsing since I have been using bleach
in a fairly high concentration (2T/gallon). I pre-boil & chill my water.

No consensus on whether it will get better/worse over time. In my case it seems
to be staying about the same - noticeable to a critic, can be pointed out to
a casual imbiber.

One respondent suggested that chloro-phenol is harmful. No other detail
included (why, at what concentration, etc.). Since the batch in question is
all but consumed, I won't worry about it. And unless others follow-up with more
detail on the health hazards of chloro-phenol, I'll let my taste-buds be the
judge. If it taste good I'll drink it.

In the future I'll rinse better. And I may switch to iodophores.

Thanks again. HBD is a wonderful resource.

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Date:  8 Nov 94  8:36:28 EDT
From: Jim Ancona <Jim_Ancona.DBS at dbsnotes.dbsoftware.com>
Subject: Re: Bottle Durability

In HBD 1573, Ward Weathers says:
>I have been brewing with the same 200 bottles for the last year and half. 
>chipping/breaking glass!  I am using the two handled type of capper (which
>I understand break more than their share of bottles), but these were my
>first breakages.  I am wondering if the bottles are wearing out, or was
>there just too much lateral action on the bottle?  Does anyone have any
>comment on the durability of standard longneck bottles? 

It's not the bottles, it's the capper! I had the exact same thing happen with 
my black two-handled capper. I took it to the homebrew shop and compared it to 
a new one of the same model. The new capper worked fine, while mine broke 
bottles. In comparing the new and old ones, it was apparent that the problem 
was with my old capper. Something had bent or changed position somehow. 

My solution was to buy a bench capper. My wife (who usually caps, while I fill) 
recommends it highly.

Jim
janco at dbsoftware.com


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Date: 8 Nov 1994 09:41:29 -0500
From: "Penn, Thomas" <penn#m#_thomas at msgw.vf.ge.com>
Subject: For Publication

Does anyone know anything of the lore of the Ale Wife?  I know that Alewives
are small fish that wash up on the shore of Lake Michigan every summer, but
what is the origin and meaning of the Ale Wife?  

Please reply by private email.

Stop me before I brew again!

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Date: 	Tue, 8 Nov 1994 08:03:02 PST
From: wegeng.xkeys at xerox.com
Subject: Re: Propane cooking indoors

Philip Gravel quotes Tom Cannon:
>>          2.)  Carbon Monoxide build-up after combustion is also life
>>          threatening requiring serious ventilation (again, more than
>>          a few open windows).
>
>True, but is it any more of a problme than an ordinary gas stove assuming
>that the propane burner is properly adjusted.

I believe that the Natural Gas industry recommends venting for any burner that
is larger than 20,000 btu.

>>          4.)  Occasionally, you have propane leaks.  Being a truly
>>          orderless and colorless gas, this can lead to situtations
>>          resulting in death.
>
>Most fuels that are normally odorless (natural gas, propane) have methyl
>mercaptan added to them.  This gives them an order so they can be detected
>by smell.  The hazard of death from a propane leak seems exaggerated.

Propane and NG are similar, but there is one difference.  When I was
researching the use of propane for cooking, I was told that NG will tend to mix
with room air, so you`re likely to smell a leak very early.  Propane, on the
other hand, tends to settle to the lower areas of the house, where it may build
up for some time before you smell it.  The risk I describe here is from
explosion, not asphyxiation.

I haven`t been following this discussion, so forgive me if these points have
already been brought up.

/Don
wegeng.xkeys at xerox.com

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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 94 8:14:46 PST
From: Mark E. Thompson <markt at hpdocp3.cup.hp.com>
Subject: Plastic Bottles for beer?
Full-Name: Mark E. Thompson

I have heard of some home brewers using plastic soda (1l) bottles
for their finished product.  They claim that the caps will hold
preasure for about a year.  What is the experience others have had?
- --
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Mark E. Thompson                  |Internet: markt at cup.hp.com        |
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 94 11:06:26 EST
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: RE: Efficiency & volume (1st allgrain)



   Hi All,

In HBD#1573, Lee Bollard writes about his first all-grain batch.

Hallelujah!!! At last!!!! A post that actually discusses brewing!!
Not a single word about lawsuits, copyright laws, no endless blather
about disclaimers. And, it's not even uuencoded!!! God Bless and keep
you, Lee Bollard!

>Now I need to know what to change for next time...
>
>        Malt bill:
>        ----------
>        8 lbs Pale
>        .5 lb Crystal 40L
>        .5 lb Cara-Pils
>
>I shot for 6 gallons volume before boiling, and did get that by the time
>the runoff gravity was down to 1.010 :-) The gravity of the 6 gallons was
>1.045.  :-)

>How did I do, efficiency-wise?

FWIW, here's how I compute efficiency. You collected 6 gallons  at  1.045,
6 * 45 = 270 SG "points". What I do is subtract out the maximum theoretical
contribution from the specialty grains (I'm assuming you mashed both).
The max for 40L crystal is ~25 pts/#/gal, for cara-pils, it's ~28. So,
270 - ((.5 * 25) + (.5 * 28)) = 270 - 26 = 244. Dividing the 244 by 8#
of base malt gives 30.5 pts/#/gal. Excellent, especially for a first 
effort.
I know some brewers who just average in the contributions from all the
grains, in which case it's 270 / 9 = 30 pts/#/gal. Whatever. IMHO,
extraction effeciency is somewhat overrated by homebrewers. For the
5-10 gallon brewlengths most of us are doing, a 10% loss in effeciency
means use another pound or two of base malt next time, no big deal. It's
not nearly as important for us as for large scale commercial operations.
It's far more important, IMHO, to find out what efficiency number your
system *consistently* delivers, be that 25, 28, 32, and use that as a
guide in designing and replicating recipes.

>
>After boiling for an hour I ended up with just over 4 gallons. :-(  The
>gravity of this 4 gallons was 1.055 :-)  This is higher than the 1.048 I
>shot for.  So I added some distilled water to top up the carboy (mistake?).
>
>
>Next time, should I:
>
>        Use more water? (YES)
>        Use more grain?

More water yes, more grain no.
Again, here's what I do in this situation. You were shooting for 1.048,
and had 6 gallons  at  1.045 after sparging. You boiled off ~2 gallons in one
hour. Add the 2 gallons *prior* to starting the boil, stop boiling when
you have just under 6 gallons, and you'll get an OG of 1.048 or very close.
The coagulation of soluble protein and preciptitation of break material
during the boiling and chilling will cause the OG to be somewhat lower
than a purely linear extrapolation would lead you to expect, but the
difference is really negligible.

>        Use hotter sparge water (172F this time)

Nope, 172F is fine.

>        RDWHAHB?

Always :-)

Please excuse me now, the excitement of discussing purely brewing issues 
on this forum has left me weak and trembling, I simply can't continue. :-)

(smiley included for the sarcasm-impaired)
   
           Jim               dipalma at sky.com

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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 11:19:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Russell Fusco <fusco at acpub.duke.edu>
Subject: how do I keg?

Hi, up until now I've only bottled my beer, but I would really like to 
start using kegs and a CO2 system. Unfortunately much of the discussion 
on the HBD is way over my head as far as this kind of thing goes, so I 
was wondering if somebody could give me a few beginner's tips- either 
that or tell me what a good source is for becoming an brushing up 
up on this topic.

Appreciated,			-=Russ Fusco=-

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Date: Tue, 08 Nov 94 11:25:07 EST
From: mdemers at ccmailpc.ctron.com
Subject: Wyeast 1098?



	****  Warning:  The following is a Homebrew related question. ****

	Hello group,
		
		I am looking for info on Wyeast 1098.  I recently used this in a Bass
	clone and the result was a taste that I can't quite describe.  I am 
	wondering if it is really the yeast that produced this strange taste. 
	Does 1098 contribute flavors that would make it stand way out as 
   compared to say, 1056 or 1084?  I assumed it would contribute minor 
	flavor components, but I have never tasted anything like this before.
	I am wondering if I have an infection of some sort, or if it is just 
   the yeast.  Any info would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

	Mike Demers --> a.k.a "nameless flamer of cyberspace"  Hi Dennis ;-)           






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Date:          Tue, 8 Nov 1994 11:35:01 EDT
From: "Paul Stokely" <PSTOKELY at ea.umd.edu>
Subject:       Maryland Homebrew Laws

Warning: this post contains information of a regional nature!

A month back, someone nominated themselves to compile state laws 
concerning homebrew production, taxation and transport. The following 
information is paraphrased from the Annotated Code of Maryland, 
Article 2B, Alcoholic Beverages, and the COMAR General Tax Code.

 -COMAR uses the term "Family Beer" to say "beer produced for home 
consumption and not for sale", and exempts it from the Alcoholic 
Beverage Tax in Title 5 Subtitle 1.

 -COMAR sets a $ 50 fee for "family beer" exhibition permits, and 
exempts entries (from homebrewers) from interstate taxes and 
non-resident dealer permits in Title 2, Subtitle 1.  

 -There is no mention of transporting family beer to a party or a local 
"Family Beer" club meeting. Probably the phrase "home consumption" 
allows cops to bust you if they really want to.

I have a printout of the relevant tax and permit sections if anyone 
wants them e-mailed. Personally, I think they'll make for cool beer 
labels. It takes a long time to find this stuff if you are not 
trained or don't have Westlaw access.

Paul S. in College Park, Maryland  "You speak in strange whispers, 
                                    friend, are you not of The Body?"  
                                  


 



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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 08:50:52 -0800
From: Richard B. Webb <rbw1271 at appenine.ca.boeing.com>

Subject: 'Unusual hop varieties'

One of my homebrew clubs is getting together a massive hop buy. The curious
thing is that I've never heard of some of the varieties. These are pretty much
U.K. hops, with unknown properties. I don't remember seeing them in the
hop.faq, so advice to RTFM don't really apply here. If you have any
opinions about the following hop varieties, please let me know. I'll
even try to summarize and post if I get any responses.

U.K. Hops:
Challenger
Brambling Cross
Target
Progress
Whitbred Goldings
East Kent Goldings

Thanks for your support during these trying times...
Rich Webb

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Date: 08 Nov 1994 12:08:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Brian Ellsworth, 203-286-1606" <ELLSWORTH%BRAVO at utrcgw.utc.com>
Subject: dead yeast, and sweet wort

hiya,

I'm an extract brewer (oh, the shame of it!). Recently, i brewed
a batch of JUUITWHA (just using up ingredients that were hanging
around:) stout. Here's the basic materials, at least what i can
remember of them!

(Ah, for all you experts, try not to be offended by my
unscientific, almost reckless approach to brewing. For me, it's a
hobby, and being a bit reckless is half the fun. Consistency is
not a goal! I love surprises. If you ARE offended by
hydrometerless, undisciplined, novice, experimenters, please just
skip to the next message)

 -   5 gal batch -
3.5 lbs Gordie's Ambler malt extract
3.5 lbs Gordie's Light malt extract
6.6 lbs Tennisons Dark malt extract (? Not sure on the name, it's
                                      English anyway, and it was
                                      on sale.)
1/2 lbs Dark Crystal
1/2 lbs Light Crystal
1/2 lbs barley
1/4 lbs Chocolate or roasted malt (wasn't marked, but it sure was
                                   black!)
1 oz Chinook 90 min boil
3 oz S. Goldings 1/4 to 1/2 oz at a time over the last 35 mins
1 pack dry (gasp!) cheep ale yeast
1 pack dry champagne yeast

Phew, now the brew pantry is bare!
Rehydrated the yeast, and added wort to the yeast until the
little buggers were screaming to jump in the pail. The yeast
started great, and after 2 hours, the primary was bubbling away.
Temps have been between 65 and 70 degsF in the cellar where the
primary is stored.

The primary fermented out in about 9 days. Racked to the
secondary, and did a taste sample on the way. (no hydrometer,
just taste buds, bitter=complete, sweet=incomplete..) Nice
flavour, a tad underhopped for my taste, but VERY sweet. Too
sweet, IMHO. After a few days, there is no activity at all. It
seems to me, this batch is stuck. I tried waking up the yeast a
bit. (i gently agitated the glass secondary a bit) It bubbles for
a few mins, then nothing.

I'll drink it no matter what, in fact the sweetness might even
grow on me, but it's not really what i was looking for.

Any ideas? Not enough oxygen after cooling? Is there something
else i should have added to keep the yeast healthy? Hardly a
disaster, but i'd like to get a tad less sweetness and a more
alcohol the next time. Maybe it's just unbalanced because of the
lack of hops, and the unpublished amount of unfermentables in the
extract...

Anybody ever add more yeast this late in the cycle? Will adding
more yeast even work?

 -brian ellsworth     ellsworth%bravo at utrcgw.utc.com

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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 94 13:05:22 EST
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: CAMRA books


I just got a couple of CAMRA's books through North Brewery Supplies in
Franklin, WI.  The ones I got were:
    "Brew Your Own Real Ale at Home" by Graham Wheeler & Roger Protz
and "Good Beer Guide to Belgium/Holland" by Tim Webb

The first book is not what I expected.  I thought it would be more on
how to do cask conditioning at home.  It is instead, "More than one
hundred recipes based on famous commercial brands of cask-conditioned
beer."  It also has some basic homebrewing instructions and a little on
cask-conditioning at home.  Never fear, I should still be able to put it
to good use but, as I said, it is not what I expected. 

I won't be able to comment on the second book until I get back from a
trip to Holland next week!

This is the first time I have seen any CAMRA books for sale by a
U.S. homebrew supply shop.  The other CAMRA titles he has are:

"Homebrewing - The CAMRA Guide"
"The Great British Beer Book"
"The Real Ale Drinker's Almanac"
"The European Beer Almanac"
"Good Beer Guide (Britain) 1994"

The details are:
North Brewery Supplies
9009 S 29th Street
Franklin, WI 53132
Orders: 1.800.4U.DRAFT
Other : 1.414.761.1018

Standard Disclaimer
- --

Jim Grady
grady at hp-mpg.an.hp.com

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Date: Tue, 08 Nov 94 13:21:24 EST
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: bounced reply.... diacetyl, beginner brewing adventures          

- -------------------- Mail Item Text Follows ------------------

To: I1010141--IBMMAIL

From: Bob Paolino
      Research Analyst
Subject: bounced reply.... diacetyl, beginner brewing adventures

I tried to respond to the person from Ball State who described his homebrewing
learning adventures and asked about identifying diacetyl and other
characteristics.  It bounced.  If you recognise yourself here, send the address
and I'll try again.  (I had 00bkpickeril at leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu)

Bob Paolino
Disoriented in Badgerspace

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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 94 13:45:27 PST
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Kegging FAQ up for grabs


Close to a year ago, I volunteered to edit a Kegging FAQ and requested
submissions which I collected.  I also went through hundreds of issues
of HBD to collect relevant articles.  Along the way, an outline was
created by a volunteer and we agreed to divvy up the work.  Someone
else volunteered to take another section.  All of us have been too
busy to do anything on the FAQ as witnessed by the lack of
publication of the mythical beast.

Rather than hold onto something which I seem to never be able to get
to, I am putting it up for grabs.  Send me private Email with answers
to the following questions to help me to decide who I will pass the
torch on to.

1) What experience do you have with kegging?
2) Why do you think you have the time/determination to take on a task
   of this monumental nature?
3) What are your computing environment resources which would enable
   you to do this work and reply to questioners?
4) What would you tell me to convince me that you will actually
   publish the FAQ?

When I have waited a sufficient amount of time to give everyone the
opportunity to respond, I will choose a successor who seems the most
likely candidate to actually get the job done, name s/he publicly
in these forums and forward the 9500 lines of mail sent to me by all
you generous folks, as well as the 3800 lines of articles culled from
the HBD archives to that successor.

I apologize profusely to you all for taking on this task and not being
able to produce the FAQ you all have been patiently waiting for.
Unfortunately in the list of things to do, the FAQ came in behind
work, wife and brewing.  I will still continue to cheerfully answer
questions about kegging and collect and archive info on kegging, but I
can no longer pretend to you nor myself that I will ever get the time
to actually publish the Kegging FAQ.

With regret,

dion


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Date: Tue, 08 Nov 94 17:56:00 PST
From: David Oakman <DOAKMAN at low.ameridata.com>
Subject: Brew Pubs in Minneapolis and Chicago Areas


I was wondering if any fellow homebrewer could recommend brewpubs in the 
Minneapolis and Chicago areas.

TTFN
Dave Oakman

Doakman at low.ameridata.com

Disclaimer -  I am an avid homebrewer and always on the look out for new and 
exciting beer (homebrewed, micro and sometimes even commercial) and am only 
looking for information to enhance my brewing horizens.  

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Date: Tue, 08 Nov 1994 18:07:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy P. Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>" <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>
Subject: My Virgin MASH!

Hey everyone,

Last night was my maiden voyage into the wonderful world of mashing!  What 
follows is a detailed description of what I did, in hopes of getting 
constructive feedback on my procedure.  So, for those uninterested in the 
ramblings of a beginner, please start paging down and hold your inclination 
to fire up the old flame thrower.  

Due to equipment constraints (lack of brewpot capacity) I did a partial mash.
I intended to make a porter, but I'm not sure if it will be true to style.  
Here's the ingredient list:

	3.3 lbs M&F unhopped amber malt extract
	4.0 lbs pale malt
	1.0 lbs crystal malt
	0.5 lbs chocolate malt
	0.25 lbs black patent malt
	0.25 lbs toasted malt
	1.0 oz. Fuggles pelleted hops (boiling)
	0.5 oz. Hallertauer pelleted hops (boiling)
	0.5 oz. Hallertauer pelleted hops (flavor)
	0.5 oz. Willamette pelleted hops (finishing)
	1/4 tsp Irish moss powder
	1 tsp gypsum
	Wyeast 1028 London Ale liquid yeast

YEAST STARTER:

I made a yeast starter by boiling 1/2 cup light dried malt extract and 1/8 
oz. Fuggles hops in 2 cups of water, for a rough predicted gravity of 1.028.  
I strained out the hops, cooled the starter in a sanitized 22 oz bottle, 
pitched the yeast, and topped with a sanitized lock filled with weak bleach 
solution.  Activity was apparent after about 24 hours.  Full krauesen was 
about 40 hours, by my best estimate.  Pitching to wort occurred at about 50 
hours. 

MASHING SCHEDULE:

Based on HBD advice, I used the George Fix schedule, with a couple minor 
modifications.  This was probably too bold an undertaking for a virgin 
masher, but I was adventurous.  

	glucanase (?) rest 	104 F	(30 minutes) 
	protein rest		122 F	(15 minutes)
	beta-amylase rest	140 F	(30 minutes)
	alpha-amylase rest	158 F	(30 minutes)
	mashout			172 F	(10 minutes)

MASHING PROCEDURE:

Budget constraints restricted me to the monitored-brewpot mash-tun and 
the zapap-style lauter-tun.  (poor, poor, pitiful me).  The brewpot was 
covered with a lid and insulated with towels.  My lauter-tun was not 
insulated.  All grains were crushed with my newly acquired Philmill (I'm so 
proud of it) and combined in the brewpot.  

I doughed-in with 5/8 quarts room temp water per pound of grain and brought 
to 104 F with 3/8 quarts 120 F water per pound grain.  I fell short of 104 F 
by about 10 degrees, so I applied direct heat with gentle stirring to reach 
desired temp.  I held at 104 for 30 minutes, losing only 1 degree in that time.

I added about 2 quarts boiling water to reach the protein rest at 122 F and 
again fell short by about 10 degrees.  I once again applied direct heat to 
achieve this rest.  The protein rest was 15 minutes.

To reach 140 F, I tried Papazian's technique of 0.5 quarts at 200 F per pound 
of grains to raise temperature 18 degrees.  I used boiling water (3 quarts) 
and missed my mark by only 1 degree F.  I bumped the temp up with direct 
heat.  After 15 minutes, I had lost 1 degree F, so I brought the mash back to 
temp with heat.  This rest was held 30 minutes total.

I applied direct heat with gentle stirring for about 9 minutes to reach 158 F 
and held without heat loss for 30 minutes.  Conversion was verified with 
tincture of iodine---no color change whatsoever.

I raised to mashout (172 F) with direct heat and held for 10 minutes.

SPARGING:

I preheated the lauter-tun with 170 F water, drained, and returned the water 
to the stove for reheating.  I laid down foundation water and ladled the mash 
over to the lauter-tun with a small saucepan.  What a mess!  I then drained 
about 6-7 quarts of sweet liquor for recirculation before I could see the 
grainbed below the liquid surface.  I placed a low flat bowl on the grainbed 
to prevent disturbing the bed while sparging.  I quickly reheated the 
drainings to 170 F and began adding them back to the mash while draining the 
"clarified" sweet liquor into my brewpot.  I continued sparging with plain 
170 F water until I had recovered about the predicted volume, 3.75 gallons.

BIG, BIG Problem-----I may have caused/done hot-side aeration by allowing too 
much splashing of the sparge outflow.  Is that the proper term?  What 
ill-effects could the finished product have?  Papazian simply mentions 
"oxidized" flavors, but I seem to remember something on the HBD about a "wet 
cardboard" taste.  God be with my brew.  I'll just be sick if all this work 
was for nothing.  I plan to make some minor equipment modifications to avoid 
this problem with my next batch.

THE BOIL:

I added the malt extract and gypsum and 
boiled one hour, adding the boiling hops in equal amounts at 20 minute 
intervals.  With 15 minutes remaining, I added the irish moss.  At T-10 I put 
in the flavor hops.  Aroma hops were added as the heat was turned off the 
boil.  

THE BIG CHILL:

I immediately immersed my chiller in the still boiling wort and cranked it 
up.  It took about 15 minutes to cool to pitching temp (75 F).  I then 
removed the chiller and strained the cool wort into my fermenter, carefully 
avoiding pouring the trub along with it.  Also as per advice of HBD, I 
strained the trub through cloth to avoid losing several quarts of "precious" 
wort.  I never liked that shirt anyway.  The strained wort was returned to the
stove with about 2 gallons of near-boiling water.  I boiled this concoction 
for another 10 minutes or so, repeated the chilling, and added the mixture to 
the fermenter.  The wort has a distinct ruby red undertone, I assume from the 
chocolate or black patent malt.

PITCHING:

I sanitized the starter bottle with alcohol, removed the lock and poured 
those good little buggers in there, swirling the lower half to make sure to 
get everything out.  Is there any way to easily tell if a starter has been 
contaminated with nasties?  I just relied on my nose---smelled good, so I 
used it. (update: rich, thick, krauseny head on the wort after about 15 hours)

MASH YIELD:

Final volume of wort came out a little low, about 4 gallons, but I was too 
tired to go through the boiling/chilling process again.  I'll probably just 
dilute into secondary or at bottling.  Is this a good idea?  If not then, when?

****

Predicted O.G. for 4 gallons was calculated as shown:

	ingredient	degrees/lb	lbs used	contribution
	----------	----------	--------	------------
	liquid extract	35		3.3		115.5
	pale malt	28		4.0		112
	crystal/toast	8		1.25		 10
	choc/bp malts	2		0.75		1.5
							------------
						total	239 (239/4=59.8=60)
						O.G.	1.060

(degrees/lb and calculations ala Brewer's Resource catalog)

Measured O.G. corrected for temperature was 1.061.
  
This is an efficiency of essentially 100%, considering measurement error.  
WHOA!  Either I had beginner's luck or Fix's schedule is truly superior.  
Do the numbers sound right??  Based on this, I would be reluctant to alter my 
mashing schedule.  Maybe I would move the protein rest closer to 132 
F---somebody commented that this would decrease chill haze?  Any further 
comments on calculations, contributions of various grains, etc ???

****

Don't ask how long this all took......

Sorry about the massive rambling, but I wanted to open my procedure up for 
critical improvements and suggestions.  I PROMISE that future experiences 
will not be posted in such great detail.  Any feedback would be greatly 
appreciated.  Private e-mail is fine, but some topics may be of general 
interest to the list subscribers, particularly the efficiency of the Fix 
schedule.  Thanks for your time and patience.  BREW ON!

Bones
====================================
laatsch at kbs.msu.edu



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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 20:56:12 -0500 (EST)
From: David Smucker <smucker at use.usit.net>
Subject: Off line discussion & Propane Burners

I have noted a trend of late in the HBD, requested and liked by some, 
which I feel is limiting the content and discussion on the Digest.  That
trend is a request to post replies to the information requester's email address 
rather that a public reply to the HBD.  This is followed by the comment 
that the person making the request will make a summary and post that to 
the Digest.
 
While in some cases this seems to make sense, Pub information for 
example, in many other case it takes away the discussion and that is 
where a lot of the real information comes out.  Besides I like to judge 
the value of the replies and information myself -- not leave it to 
someone else to make those judgements.  
 
A case in point:  Recently Tom Cannon, posted a summary of replies to his 
question about using a high BTU Propane burner in the house.  A few days 
later Philip Gravel posted some comments on this summary.  This is not a 
fame or being critical of either Tom's summary or Philip's comments but 
rather that we might have had more information and discussion if carried 
on on line.  We have room for such discussions IMO.
 
I for example have been using a high BTU propane burner indoors for about 
2 years.  It is not in the "house" but rather in my shop.  It has a concrete 
floor and drain for the boilovers and I do run with the 10 foot sliding 
door open at least a foot.  Fresh air enters at the bottom and most if 
not all of the POC (now that a new acronym for some of you <Products of 
Combustion>) vent out the top of the door thru a 3 inch vent line.  This 
is easy to do in east Tennessee where it doesn't get very cold.  If I 
still lived in Iowa (-20 F) I would still brew in my shop but in this 
case vent the POC in to the stack on my wood stove.  To catch the POC I 
use the heat shroud that I described in past HBDs.  A 200,000 BTU Propane 
burner uses no more air (O2) than does a 200,000 BTU furnace and many 
homes don't (some new tight ones must) have an outside air supply for the 
furnaces.  BUT YOU WOULD NOT VENT THAT 200,000 BTU FUNACE INTO YOUR 
HOME!! So you must be careful and know what you are doing.  Products of 
combustion (POC) are normally CO2 and H2O if the burner is adjusted 
correctly and has excess air but with a lean mixture it is easy to get CO 
and that kills!
 
 
Dave Smucker	<smucker at use.usit.net>
Knoxville, TN	(but 15 damn cold winters in Iowa)


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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 22:16:54 -0500 (EST)
From: "Shane Allen Snyder" <snyders2 at student.msu.edu>
Subject: First Brew

Hello Homebrewers...
    I have recently become very interested in this hobby.  I have two carboys
fermenting now.  These are my first two batches.  I have some questions which
I would like to ask:
    1)  Is two stage fermentation a good idead?  If so, is it better to use two
glass carboys, or a plastic fermenter then the carboy?
    2)  HSA, how can I, a beginner, avoid this?  Is it really critical to
making good brew?
    3)  What is the "best" way to pitch dry yeast?  a starter culture?
rehydration? none of the above?
    4)  What is the "best" sterilizing agent to use?  I hate using Chlorox!
    5)  How does this electronic forum operate? IOW, did I do this right???
            Thanks,   Shane "First Brew" Snyder



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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 22:25:22 -0500
From: BToddL69 at aol.com
Subject: Porter Recipie

This is a call for Porter recipies (all grain please).  So as not to appear
lazy, here's what I have on the drawing board:

8.0 # Malted Barley  
1.5 # Munich
1.5 # Crystal
1/4 # Black Patent
3/4 # Chocolate Malt

I started with Papazian's Silver Dollar Porter, then adjusted amounts using
the percent values in Brewer's Resource catalog.  As for the 8 # malted
barley, should i go two or six row, or does it really matter?
 
1 oz. Perle (7%)
1/2 oz. Tettnang (5%)
1/2 oz. Mt. Hood 
Wyeast Irish Ale (1084)

These are just what I have, I'm not that anal about style guidelines. Any
comments, recipies, or interested brewers welcomed via private email.
 Thanks, Todd
Todd Little (BToddL69 at aol.com)
  

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Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 22:35:29 -0500
From: BToddL69 at aol.com
Subject: Celis Yeast?

Awhile back I asked about using a Celis White yeast starter I had from bottle
dregs.  I received about five posts, unanimously advising me not to use it,
albeit on a sample, as Celis pasturizes.  What I did was pitch the starter in
a two gallon batch of second runnings from an all grain strong ale.  Within
ten hours, fermentation was underway.  Three days later I racked it to a
secondary.  At this point it smelled and tasted O.K. BUT, there was a slight
aftertaste reminiscent of chewing an aspirin.  After another week, it smells
the same but has developed a nasty, yet not overpowering flavor, I will
describe as vomit-aftertaste (sorry morning readers).  The yeast I saved from
the primary seems to appear slightly different than what I'm accustomed to.
 When I shake the yeast (in a Jar) the particles in suspension look like snow
in one of those toy shake up globes, whereas other yeasts look like, well,
Yeast!  Could this be a mutant, as some suggested in their replies, or could
these results have something to do with using second runnings (first time
I've done that)?  Hope this doesn't fall under the "Drivel" category, at
least its beer related.  Any offline discussion welcomed.  

Thanks, Todd   (BToddL69 at aol.com)

Drink Duff (TM) Beer! 


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1574, 11/09/94