FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Plastic Bottle Crates (grobbins)
  Re: Buffalo Brewing Company (Frank Caico)
  Update to hops faq... (Robert Schultz)
  Hungarian beer style/recipe (mlittle)
  pure O2 / acronyms ("Mark J. Donnelly")
  Re: starters for lagers (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Microwaves and boiling beer ("v.f. daveikis")
  Bitter Beer / 800 #s / APAs (npyle)
  homebrew cider (MCKEOWND)
  Re: Brewpub Location (Rick Myers)
  Band-Aid Yeast Transport ("Manning Martin MP")
  Sanitation Question ("Craig A. Janson")
  Body/800 numbers/sterility and microwaves/corianderrors (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  file location request ("Robert Waddell")
  Beer-of-the-Month Clubs (Craig Mcpherson)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 05:34:54 EST
From: grobbins at usaid.gov
Subject: Plastic Bottle Crates

Forwarded to:      ismtp at basa14001 at servers[homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com]
          cc:      
Comments by:       Gary Robbins at PRO at DHAKA

   -------------------------- [Original Message] -------------------------      
Does anyone know where I can get some plastic crates to hold my bottles?  The 
original cardboard boxes that held the bottles have just about had it.  I use 
two different size bottles, Grolsch swing tops and another 24 oz bottle that 
is a bit smaller than the Grolsch.  I live in Bangladesh so I am looking for 
a U.S. mail order supply, (I can get these through the mail) rather than 
generic ideas on where to get these in the U.S.  Please send private e-mail.

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Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 09:19:51 +0500
From: fcaico at ycc.Kodak.COM (Frank Caico)
Subject: Re: Buffalo Brewing Company

>>>>> "Charles" == Charles S Jackson <sjackson at ftmcclln-amedd.army.mil> writes:

Charles writes previously:

    Charles>      As the recipient of a gift subscription to Beer Across
    Charles> America (obviously no affiliation) I get teh opportunity to sample
    Charles> a nice selection of micro's.  Last month I received a six'er of
    Charles> bier labeled:

    Charles>                           OKTOBERFEST German Styled Harvest Beer

    Charles> from teh Buffalo Brewing Company in Lackawanna, NY.  It is bottled
    Charles> conditioned as evidenced by the scant dregs.  The label gives no
    Charles> hint of the ingredients.  Now I lived in Germany for over 8 years
    Charles> and drank, and drank, and drank beer.  While I am not a fan of
    Charles> weizen, esp hefeweizen, I could stomach the krystalweizen, but I
    Charles> don't think I ever tasted a "harvest beer".  This stuff is sour
    Charles> and not at all palatable.  Is this potentially infected or is it
    Charles> supposed to be sour?  Anybody want it?  Four bottles left.  E-mail
    Charles> seems most appropiate unless some of the masters think it deserves
    Charles> public discussion.

Well, I am pretty familiar with the Buffalo Brewing Co's products and I can
tell you that they are *not* bottle conditioned.  But- I have also seen the
problem you describe above.

You do know that an Octoberfest is not made with wheat right? Well I had a Pils
from the Buffalo Brewing Co. that had the exact same character you describe. I
have also had good bottles of the Pils and they are completely different.  

I guess BBC has had some problems with contamination from time to time or
something, because this is the only answer I can figure. I don't know if its
wild yeast or not, but that would probably explain all the nasty
characteristics (bottle conditioned appearance, sourness, thinness etc.).

Frank
- ----
       __                                                            __
    __/\_\ -------------------------------------------------------- /_/\__     
 __/\_\/_/  Frank L. Caico          Current Internet Address:       \_\/_/\__
/\_\/_/\_\  TAD Data Services       fcaico at ycc.kodak.com            /_/\_\/_/\
\/_/\_\/_/  Rochester NY                                            \_\/_/\_\/
   \/_/\_\                                                          /_/\_\/
      \/_/ -------------------------------------------------------- \_\/

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Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 08:32:02 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Schultz <Robert.Schultz at usask.ca>
Subject: Update to hops faq...

Folks:
	I have been unofficially updating the Hops faq.  Actually I 'grew' an
interest hops this past year, two plants... and wanted to pass this as well as
the entire faq onto my local brew club.  I took the HOP faq and cleaned up the
formating (moved it into MicroSoft Word 5.1) and added a couple of appendices --
some of the controversy with Rager's & Garetz's utilization numbers, pesticides
and drying (I think).

	If this cleaned-up version is of interest to the net, I would be pleased
to post it to the archive (need a bit of help here for write access I think).  I
do not plan it email it to individuals (and seeing my schedule til the new year
may not reply to such requests...).  But, I have gained a lot of info from this
source, and would like to 'pay' back a bit if I may....

Rob.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Robert.Schultz at usask.ca, Senior Research Analyst, University of Saskatchewan ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ "I'm going off half-cocked? I'm going off half-cocked? ...                   ~
~  Well, Mother was right - You can't argue with a shotgun."     - Gary Larson ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:18:00 EST
From: mlittle at cclink.draper.com
Subject: Hungarian beer style/recipe


<<<<<< Attached TEXT item follows >>>>>>
Text item: Text_1
     Hi Folks,
     
     A fellow brewer without hbd access is responsible for providing the 
     beer for his gourmet clubs annual banquet.  This year the theme is 
     Hungarian food and drink.  Anyone out there have an idea of what a 
     'Traditional Hungarian Beer' should be?  If you have a recipe for a 
     beer made with ale yeast (no lager fridge), or commercial examples he 
     can copy, reply to me via private e-mail.
     
     Mark



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Date: 17 Nov 94 10:42:00 EDT
From: "Mark J. Donnelly" <donnelly at nosgis.nr.state.ky.us>
Subject: pure O2 / acronyms

Regarding Jim Busch's posting to HBD1581:
If you bubble pure O2 for 20-60 minutes  and only end up with 8 mg/l 
DO, what happens to the rest of the O2?  I think this is where the 
actual danger lies.  I don't think anyone ever implied that the beer 
could ever catch fire.  Caution certainly seems to be in order.

***

On another subject (peripheral subject of the week?):

from a Websters:

Acronym = a WORD formed from initial letters of a name or by 
combining initial letters or parts of a series of words

Abbreviation = a shortened form of a word or phrase used chiefly in 
writing to represent the full form

Though you could call DMS an acronym (free speech is a constitutional 
right in the USA), the most correct term seems to me to be 
"abbreviation."   I could pronounce the word beer "bee-ee-ee-are" 
(like "lets send the kids up to bee-ee-dee, honey") but I wouldn't 
call that normal speech.  Or, we could call A-B beer, but swill seems 
to be  a more appropriate term.  Lets use the better word if it fits.

I could also argue that DMS is not a word formed from the initial 
letters of a series of words, but is rather a shortened form of the 
word "dimethylsulfide"

Cheers,
Mark Donnelly in Lou'ville KY   donnelly at nosapp.nr.state.ky.us


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Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 10:45:03 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: starters for lagers

Algis R. Korzonas wrote about starters for lagers: 
 > >1a. Should I have made that yeast starter at my Fermenting
 > >Temperature of 48F instead of 68F?

 > No.  Making a starter is all about yeast growth, whereas fermentation is
 > another beast altogether.  Starters for both ale and lager should be made at
 > room temperature (around 70-75F).

I have to disagree here, Al.  My yeast supplier (owner of the Yeast
Culture Kit Company) has told me to grow my lager starters cold,
especially with certain yeasts (e.g., the "Munich" strain, as I
recall).  He claims that when the starter is grown warm, the yeast
"get used to it", and not work well at the cooler lager fermentation
temperature (or will throw more "interesting" flavors and aromas than
they should).  He said that this is one reason that the "Munich"
strain has a reputation for being "unstable" -- that most homebrewers
grow the starter warm and then expect it to work cold.

=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI

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Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:46:56 -0500 (EST)
From: "v.f. daveikis" <vdaveiki at julian.uwo.ca>
Subject: Microwaves and boiling beer

Microwaves have been found to be the only effective way to rid 
underclothes of Candida albicans, the yeast that causes yeast infections 
in women. This is not a joke.  I would assume that using a microwave to 
sterilize your bottles would be OK, even without water in them as any 
microorganisms contain water, and they would be adversely affected by 
being nuked.  If anyone knows different, please inform.
Rob wanted to know if he should reboil his wort.  DON'T!!  You will boil 
off all of your alcohol before the beer comes to a boil.  I would suggest 
taking a bottle of beer, pouring it into a larger wine bottle (sterilized 
in a  microwave!), adding either a calculated amount of calcium carbonate 
or a pinch, whichever you like ( or dissolve the pinch in some boiling 
water and add that), attatch a fermentation lock and see where that gets 
you.  You shouldn't have to repitch because there are still tons of yeast 
in the beer.  If that doesn't work, check the pH (to see if you did bring 
it up) and if it's up , then try some new yeast.  Experiment with a small 
amount before trying the whole batch.  BUT DON'T BOIL YOUR
 
BEER.  Better to serve a sweet beer to your friends at a swill party than 
throw away a whole batch.
  My $.03 worth ( Canadian exchange)
  Victor Daveikis

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Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 8:50:44 MST
From: npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM
Subject: Bitter Beer / 800 #s / APAs

Doug asks how the following could over bitter his beer:

>6.5# M&F light syrup
>1.5# Pale Malt
>0.5# Carapils
>0.5# ???
>0.5# ???
>
>Hops in 3 additions:
>1 oz. Lublin  at  boil + 15
>
>0.75 oz. Hallertau  at  boil + 52
>0.75 oz. Tettnanger  at  boil + 52
>
>0.75 oz. Hallertau  at  boil + 57
>0.75 oz. Tettnanger  at  boil + 57

You say SUDSW tells you there are only 6.5 IBU.  First I should say that the
human taste threshold is somewhere around 12 IBU, so I wouldn't bother
brewing anything with less than that.  Secondly, you didn't give a lot of
information, like the AA% of the hops you used, but I took some guesses.
Using the lowest values I've ever seen, I get about 15 IBU from the hops you
used.  Now, 15 IBU is still a very low bitterness beer, so that doesn't
explain things.  You don't say how you chilled and how long it took, which is
a major factor in accurate IBU estimates.  If it takes 30 minutes or more to
chill the beer, this will certainly affect the utilization, and throw off the
estimates.  I guess the bottom line is that I don't know how your beer got
too bitter either, without more information.  It is possible that another
flavor is being perceived as bitterness.  For example, Corona appears to
get more mileage out of light-struck hop compounds than they do from the hops
themselves!

**

Jim Lindberg presents a nice list of 800 numbers for brew catalogs and says:

>I will put this out twice a month as I do on usenet.

Jim, I personally don't think you need to post this twice a month to the HBD.
We don't post FAQs here on a regular basis because everyone knows they can
get them from the archives.  This is FAQ-like but it probably changes
regularly, so I wouldn't suggest archiving it.  How about a pointer once in a
while to usenet, where it *is* posted regularly?

**

Regarding this from Spencer's Beer Page:

>a. American Pale Ale
>     Pale to deep amber/red/copper. Low to medium maltiness. High hop
>     bitterness. Medium hop flavor and aroma. Use of american hops such as
>     Cascade, Willamette, Centennial, etc. Fruity/estery. Low diacetyl OK.
>     Medium body.
>     OG 1.044-56, 4.5-5.5%, 20-40IBU, 4-11SRM.
>     Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, Anchor Liberty Ale, Geary's Pale Ale.
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is a nit, but the information I've been given is that Anchor Liberty is
OG 1.061 and 45 IBU, so doesn't fall into the range given here.  Some call it
an IPA, which may fit, but would that be an AIPA (American India Pale Ale)???
Come to think of it, SNPA is supposed to be about 30 IBU if memory serves.
If Liberty is 45 IBU, that's surprising, because there wasn't a drastic
difference in the bitterness of the two.  The Liberty was more bitter, but
50% more?  Makes me wonder if IBU *taste perception* is non-linear.  *That*
would be tough to quantify, eh?  ("Yes, its more bitter."  "How much more?"
"Oh, just a smidge."  "Would you say a smidge is closer to 5% or 25%????")

**

And I too would like to welcome Micah Millspaw back to the digest.  Any good
stories to tell, Micah?

Cheers,
Norm (in Colorado)

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Date:         Thu, 17 Nov 94 11:29:34 EST
From: MCKEOWND at QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA
Subject:      homebrew cider


I recently made a batch of cider from a "sparking cider" kit.  The kit cost
over $20 and made 15 litres of brew.  I have been contmeplating making cider
directly from actual apple cider as it would cost a bit less and would probably
 have a lot more flavour.

I was going to use 15 litres of cider, one and a half cups of corn sugar and
one package of wine brewer's yeast (this sort of copies the recipe of the kit).

Does anyone have any experience with cider who can foresee the results of my
recipe?

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Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 12:16:12 MST
From: Rick Myers <rcm at col.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Brewpub Location
Full-Name: Rick Myers

> Mark Castleman's 1s 6d worth on brewpub locations included a
> warning to avoid Colorado (a rather emphatic one even).  I would
> modify this to say that the Front Range has reached about capacity,
> but there's more to the state than just here.

I STRONGLY disagree with the statement that the Front Range has reached
capacity.  Northern Colorado Front Range is probably saturated, but
Southern Colorado Front Rangehas a long way to go.  There are only TWO
brewpubs in Colorado Springs, and NONE in Pueblo (yet!).  The only two pubs
in the Springs are right across the street from each other, so there
is LOTS of opportunity for a brewpub in any other area of town, especially
the north end (hint, hint).

> As a matter of fact, some fellow brewers & I have discussed this
> and feel that Gunnison, CO (in the Southwest) would be a fine
> location.  It is a beatiful location, near some amazing skiing,

Pueblo would probably be a much better place than Gunnison, simply
because it is a much larger city, and the market is ready!

You folks in Northern Colorado always seem to think that what is happening
up there is also happening down here.  Sorry, but we've got a LOT of
catching up to do before we even begin to reach "saturation".  Look
at LoDo Denver - there are something like 6 or 8 pubs in a 1 mile diameter.
Now, that's saturation.  Here in C. Springs, we're still starving for
brewpubs!


- --
Rick Myers        rcm at col.hp.com        http://hpctdfc.col.hp.com/rcm/rcm.html
Information Technology Specialist
Hewlett-Packard Test & Measurement Organization Information Technology
Colorado Springs, CO

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Date: 17 Nov 1994 14:59:31 U
From: "Manning Martin MP" <manning_martin_mp at mcst.ae.ge.com>
Subject: Band-Aid Yeast Transport

Domenick Venezia privately e-mailed me with a concern that Band-Aids might be
treated with some anti-microbial agent, making my idea for "ouchless"
collecting and transporting of dried yeast samples (posted in a previous HBD)
a dud.  

I had thought of this, and examined the packaging carefully before use. 
There was no indication of such treatment, only the words "sterile unless
opened".  To make sure, Domenick checked with Johnson & Johnson, who stated
unequivocally that there are no such agents applied to their products. 
Thanks go to Domenick for checking this out.

MPM

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Date: Thu, 17 Nov 94 11:57 EST
From: "Craig A. Janson" <0003522158 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Sanitation Question

I recently produce a batch of Cream Ale vinegar (my first infection...I wept 
<sniff>). In panic over getting another infection the following was done:.

     - Emptied the heady vinegar.
     - Power rinsed every bottle with the carboy washer.
     - Leaving the residual water in the bottom, I added about a 
       teaspoon of bleach to each.
     - For my next bottling just the other day I thoroughly rinsed
       the bottles and sanitized just about the whole kitchen with B-Brite
       and bottled.  The bleach had been in there for about 10 days.

Here's my theory, the bleach in the bottle would eliminate any nasties that 
could have survived the rinsing I gave the bottles or any build up of same 
(fuzzy colorful mess refered to recently by Rich Larsen) and the fumes from the 
bleach would maintain a clean environment within.  This is purely my fantasy 
and I have no fact or documentation to back it up.

Here's my question.  Is this a good practice?  Would there be any side effects 
to the interior and added beer because of the bottle's exposure to such a 
concentration of bleach?

I ask this to those out there who know the chemistry side of HB and those 
products used.

Thanks,

Craig


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Date: 17 Nov 94 19:44:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Body/800 numbers/sterility and microwaves/corianderrors

Borrowing Craig's restatement of Chris's question:
>The following reply was sent mailed to Chris_Cesar in response to a post 
>in Homebrew Digest openly wondering how it is that his beers come in 
>just under 5% and yet are full in body, while Bud comes in around the 
>same and is lacking in substance.

I think that there are three reasons that the mega-brews have little body
or flavor:

1. lots of adjuncts -- corn and rice add virtually no protein or dextrins
(which are the two things that give beer body -- mostly protein, though)
or flavour,

2. they intentionally mash in such a way that extracts lots of fermentables
and little dextrins (i.e. low-ish saccharification temperature)

3. they filter virtually all the remaining proteins and dextrins out of the
beer -- could you imagine the head on the average homebrew if it had the
typical mega-brew carbonation level?  Foam city!

I faintly recall a question about all-malt beers that are also insipid,
for example, Miller Reserve Amber Ale and Velvet Stout.  These beers may
be all malt, but I would not be surprised if the brewer added additional
enzymes to break down the dextrins and I truly believe they lose most of
their mouthfeel during filtering.

ON a related note, after the Spirit of Belgium Conference last weekend,
my wife and I went to Capitol City brewpub in D.C.  Now I know that these
beers are not the finest that the DC/VA/MD area has to offer, but the pub
was close to the touristy stuff we wanted to do.  Anyway, the beers did
have a reasonable amount of flavour, but were lacking in body and had
absolutely no head.  We did not have time to stay and ask questions, but
judging from the brilliant clarity, I'm confident that filtering was
the culprit.  There is some control in the amount of filtering that you do.
Perhaps Ed Bronson could give us a few tidbits of info that he has learned?

Incidentally, Old Dominion had a bar at Dulles Airport (hurray!) so I finally
did get to try them and these beers were far, far better than the Capitol
City brews.  Jim-- do you know what kind of filtering they do?

What about you Micah?  Do you filter?

****************
Regarding 800 numbers for Homebrewing Supplies -- I think that twice per
month is probably too often, but that's just my opinion.

****************
Rich writes:
>But do you think the combination of the microwaves and the steam is a 
>decent substitute for an autoclave?  I.E.  are things actually sterile 
>after treatment?

They are most likely not sterile if there were spores on/in whatever you
were trying to sterilize.  However, for making a regular starter that will
be instantly pitched and then used that week, it's probably good enough.
For making starters that you want to keep 6 months or for making plate-
pouring media for yeast selection or long-term storage, I'd get a pressure
cooker.

***************
>"I believe adding a few coriander seeds to the mash helps reduce the effects
>of hot side aeration. I also believe using coriander in the boil helps slow
>the process of oxidation in the finished beer."

Yeah, yeah... let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Yes, the first is complete rubbish and the second is highly questionable
(any ascorbic acid in coriander?  Aw, forget it...).  I try my best, but
sometimes stuff slips through.

Al.
korz at iepubj.att.com
Palos Hills, IL

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Date: 17 Nov 94 17:42:00 MST
From: "Robert Waddell" <V024971 at Tape.StorTek.Com>
Subject: file location request

Hi Homebrewers:

I am looking for an archive site that would have "Sudscm".  It is the
"Cats Meow" formatted for import into the "Sudsw" formulater for windows
that is available at "Sierra.Stanford.Edu".  It is mentioned by the author
(Michael C. Taylor) in the help file in "Sudsw", so I know it must exist
somewhere.  If anyone knows of a site or has a copy they could E-mail to
me I would be forever grateful.  Either post a reply here or E-mail.

Thanks and brew on,
Robert
v024971 at tape.stortek.com


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Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 22:49:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Craig Mcpherson <craigm at helios.cae.ca>
Subject: Beer-of-the-Month Clubs

Beer of the month clubs offering an ever-changing selection of domestic 
micro and imported brews seem to be gaining in popularity throughout the 
US. My question, however, is does anyone know if a similar club or clubs 
exist in Canada? Alternately, does anyone know if any of the US clubs can 
or do extend their service to Canadian customers?

I suspect that the answer might be negative to both questions, what with 
bogus inter-provincial commerce laws that exist here north of the border 
and how the provinces here have a penchant for controlling the sale of 
such substances through provincially controlled liquor stores. And this 
doesn't even begin to take into account all the customs crap that exists 
between Canada and the US, free-trade agreement not withstanding.

Still, I could have sworn someone at work once told me about a friend 
here who was in a similar wine-of-the-month club and that it was operated 
out of the states. Hmmmm..... most curious.

Can anyone enlighten? (PS. I live in Quebec)

craigm at helios.cae.ca



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1582, 11/18/94