FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Michael Jackson Pocket Guide (EDGELL)
  Re: FAQ's and Better Brewing ("Lee Bussy")
  Ale-Champagne Yeast Question/Non-alc brew? (mike.snyder)
  Re: Propane Cookers (dburns)
  RE| Flat beer (Robert.Fike)
  Buds in a name? (Jeff Guillet)
  Timing of Pitching and Racking (Richard Buckberg)
  Getting started ("David Foulk")
  first time (Jeffrey M. Collins)
  Yeast 1187, propane cooker, flat beer, low S.G. ("nancy e. renner")
  Alewife (Ginniff)
  Rhino Chaser (Jeff Stampes)
  hops (John Farver)
  Grain mill (mlloyd)
  Jail House Brew (John W. Carpenter)
  BJCP EXAM, 1/28, AND GMHC, 4/8 (TAyres)
  Cry for help, flat beer, etc (GARY SINK 206-553-4687)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 9:25:07 -0600 (CST)
From: EDGELL at uwmfe.neep.wisc.edu
Subject: Michael Jackson Pocket Guide

HBD,

I was given Michael Jackson's Pocket Guide to Beer for christmas. It is the 
one first published in 1991. My question is: Is there a more recent edition?
I seem to recall an advertisement that said it was recently updated.

Thanks,

Dana Edgell
edgell at uwmfe.neep.wisc.edu
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date:          Wed, 28 Dec 1994 09:51:31 +0000
From: "Lee Bussy" <leeb at southwind.net>
Subject:       Re: FAQ's and Better Brewing

 Btalk says:
 
 > You didn't menition Coriander in your FAQ.
 
 I thought that was a given.  Man!  Whooda thunk it? :)
 
 Chuck, how's your Corriander Octoberfest going? :} <ducking and 
 running for cover>
 
 Nah, no holiday burrnout, just dumbsh*t burnout.  Not anyone in 
 particular.  
 
 Anyone brew over the last week?  


 -Lee Bussy           |   The Homebrew Television Workshop Presents:         |
 leeb at southwind.net  |   The 4 Basic Foodgroups... Salt, Fat, Beer & Women  |
 Wichita, Kansas     |   A Special Documentary on Proper Diet.  This Week   |
 Super Brewer!       |   On your local PBS Station.  Check local listings.  |


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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 94 09:20:50 EST
From: mike.snyder at ccmail.GSFC.NASA.GOV
Subject: Ale-Champagne Yeast Question/Non-alc brew?


I have a question regarding the below post from a previous HB Digest:

=====================================================================|
>On a related note: a few months back on RCB someone posted a raving review
>of a
>barley wine they had made using ale yeast and then pitching champagne 
yeast
>after
>the first racking. That is another yeast combination which may be worth
>exploring. If
>anyone has any experience out there please speak up...

Well, I did this last year, out of necessity, not design.  I had a barley
wine that wasn't finishing, so I finally broke down and pitched a
wine/champagne yeast (can't remember).  It helped it along to completion 
and the bwine is doing fine.  BTW, I don't feel this is necessary if you 
pitch a sufficiently large yeast population and aerate well - the ale yeast 
should do fine.
==================================================================>

OK, the question is if you first use the ale yeast, then pitch the 
champagin yeast, do you aerate the brew once again, or simply pitch the 
champagin yeast and wait?  I thought when pitching the yeast (any kind) the 
more O2, the better fermentation.  If you aerate the brew well after the 
ale yeast has been completed, will that not cause off flavors (I believe 
wet cardboard-like taste) to the finished beer.  

Another question:  I am currently doing two 4 gallon batches of cider each 
have 2lbs brown sugar and 2 lbs honey in with the fresh unpreserved cider.  
With one batch, I pitched Red Star dry (rehydrated) champagin yeast.  The 
other batch I crushed (5) campden tablets waited two days and pitched 
rehydrated EDME dry ale yeast.  Both batches have been fermenting vigrously 
for over 1 week now (O.G.= 1.080).  I was told by the guy that runs my 
local HB store that if you wait for the ale yeast to ferment out, then add 
champaign yeast, it would yield a sweeter cider than the batch with only 
champagin yeast for the entire ferment.  Does anyone know if this IS true?  
I *thought* that the sweetness/dryness of the beverage had to do with the 
FINAL gravities??? (i.e. below 1.000=very dry & 1.010 and above sweeter.??)
Can any seasoned HBDers give insight?

Final Question (non-related):  Awhile back there was a discussion of how to 
make non-alcoholoc brew brew.  I was wondering if this would be a viable 
option:  Cook up the wort as you would normally for your favorite batch, 
then simply cool and force carbonate with CO2/kegging system.  I believe 
earlier issues discussed this as a beverage called Malta?  Anyway, would 
this not taste like the normally fermented beer?  Or does the yeast 
introduce more complexity/completeness?  My guess it that it may, but I 
figured while I'm typing this up I might as well ask?

Thanks,

Mike Snyder                            |   So many beers,
Systems Engineer                       |   So little time...
Loral Aerosys                          |   
Mike.Snyder at ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov       |         -An original quote

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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 94 11:02:58 -0500
From: dburns at msi.com
Subject: Re: Propane Cookers


Just a data-point. I use a propane cooker in the garage with
the door partially open.

Advantages:
  - wife not underfoot
  - wife not complaining, as much
  - easier cleanup (i.e. none ;)
  - easier to deal with immersion chiller/hose etc...
  - closer to supplies, kept in adjacent basement

I can't imagine going back to the kitchen now. In fact, I
think the kitchen is only for novice brewers first couple
batches. I'm barely more than a novice myself. From the
description, I can't even imagine all-grain brewing
happening in a kitchen. Oops, I'm forgetting about
single people here I suppose...

I still need to put a hose fitting in the basement for even
easier chiller operation, with dedicated hoses. A water
supply would come in handy for other things as well.
A second hand fridge in the basement is on the list. Also,
I'd like to replace our dishwasher upstairs before it's
completely dead (it leaks a bit dear, and those door seals
are hard to find) and install it in the 'brewery' for
bottles etc etc... what a great hobby we have!

dana
dburns at msi.com


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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 94 11:29:23 EST
From: Robert.Fike at ccmail.GSFC.NASA.GOV
Subject: RE| Flat beer


          Kathy,

          Don't worry about your flat beer.  From what you wrote, it
          sounds like it only had 1 week of aging in the bottle.
          Your 40 degree basement would inhibit aging in the bottle.
          I'm having the same problem with my garage.  Bring what you
          have back upstairs, wait a few weeks and then enjoy.  I
          don't expect any "damage" done to what you have now.

          Rob

          Robert.Fike at ccmail.gsfc.nasa.gov

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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 16:23:00 GMT
From: jeff.guillet at lcabin.com (Jeff Guillet)
Subject: Buds in a name?

I read the following article in the paper.  Thought it might interest 
some of you.

_WHICH_BUD'S_FOR_YOU?_

Prague, Czech Republic - A moratorium on the legal dispute over the 
Budweiser beer name between Anheuser-Busch of the United States and 
Czech brewer Budvar will not be renewed.  The 1990 moratorium expired 
Sept.30.  It effectively blocked Busch's Budweiser brand from being sold
in big European markets like Germany, Austria, and Spain.  Budejovicky 
Budvar n.p. general director Jiri Bocek said Tuesday the moratorium 
affecting legal disputes in 16 countries would not be maintained as it 
had become redundant.  But Bocek said the moratorium's demise would not 
hinder Busch negotiating to buy into the Czech brewer.

(Chicago Sun-Times)

 -=Jeff=-    Internet: jeff.guillet at lcabin.com

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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 08:33:44 -0800
From: Richard Buckberg <buck at well.sf.ca.us>
Subject: Timing of Pitching and Racking


I was interested to read in Miller's book that he often waits hours after
the wort cools before he pitches his yeast, to allow trub to settle.  He
also then seems to suggest racking to secondary within 12-24 hours after
that, then allowing the beer to fully ferment.

This is counter to what I understand most homebrewers do.  That is, most of
us pitch as soon as the wort is cool, and rack to secondary in several days,
after the krausen lowers.

What is the collective wisdom of the digest on this matter?

FWIW, I brew all-grain, in 5 or 10 gallon batches, and usually use whole hop
flowers.  I add that info because that seems to have an effect on the rate
and amount of trub.

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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 12:57:44 -0500 (EST)
From: "David Foulk" <dfoulk at gsvms2.cc.gasou.edu>
Subject: Getting started

I understand that my request is likely a nuisance to veteran brewers but
here goes:  I want to get started brewing at home but need starter equipment
and information.  This would be less of a problem except that I live in
rural Georgia.  Savannah GA is the nearest semi-large city.  Where can I
find information about availability of equipment in Savannah or mail order
from anywhere? Please E-Mail any information you can share with me.  In the
mean time I will continue to read the list and learn what I can.  Thanks for
the help.
David Foulk
Professor
Georgia Southern University
Department of Health Science
Tele (912) 681-5266  E-Mail dfoulk at GSVMS2.cc.GaSou.edu
FAX  (912) 681-0721

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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 13:42:01 -0600
From: jcollin2 at students.wisc.edu (Jeffrey M. Collins)
Subject: first time

Howdy!  I'm new to homebrewing and I'm five days into my first batch.

First off I'd like to say that I really enjoyed Lee Bussy's post on Dec. 26. 
 It made me feel a lot better about my technique.

There are a few little things that aren't really talked about in the books 
that I was wondering about.  Probably not important, but they can get one 
worrying when one probably should be relaxing.

First, how long does it usually take to cool wort to below 80 degrees F?  
I've heard about using wort coolers, but I'd rather go "au naturale."  My 
first batch took 6 and a half hours to cool.  Is this normal, and what are 
the chances of contamination when I'm lifting up the lid on my fermentor 
every hour to check the temp?

Second, I'm supposed to let the stuff brew for 7 to 10 days.  I'm on day 5, 
just returned from the in-laws after four glorious fun-filled days of family 
activities, and there seems to be no gaseous activity whatsoever.  Is it 
ready to bottle, or should I wait a few more days?

Third, The folks at the brew shop said that the hydrometer (?) is completely 
optional, but everyone seems to be using 'em.  Should I really get one?

Fourth, thanks for your patience, and wish my Sequoia Stout luck.

Go raibh maith agat!
Jeffrey M. Collins
jcollin2 at students.wisc.edu
Tri rudai faoin ol: e ol, e iompair, agus e ioc.
Three things about the drink; to drink it, to hold it, to pay for it.   -- 
Old Irish Saying


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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 15:45:00 -0500 (EST)
From: "nancy e. renner" <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Yeast 1187, propane cooker, flat beer, low S.G.

(From *Jeff* Renner)

Dan McConnell gave me a large NCYC 1187 starter from his previous ferment 
and has suggested that I comment on my results.  I brewed a dark bitter 
at 1.043 and diluted it to 1.039.  The grain bill was 6# Baird Pale, 1# 
(lots!) Baird 50^L crystal, 4 oz. wheat malt, 3 oz. special B, for a 
total of 7-1/2#, calculated color of 19^L (a little too dark for 
competition bitter).  This was my first use of Special B.  I had hoped it 
would be a little more mellow than choc., but it really doesn't seem to 
have been.  Next time I would use no more than 2 oz.  But actually, I 
like the beer.  I used 250 ml. *very* thick yeast slurry.  I fermented at 
ambient 64^F and had 3" kraeusen at 5 hrs. and blowoff at 15 hr.  It 
finished in three days and cleared soon after.  With OG 1.039, it 
finished at 1.010.  Despite the high amount of crystal, it finished 
pretty dry, perhaps because of the 64^C mash temp., but also the high 
pitching rate.  It has a dry flavor 
too from the Special B and the mid-20's (target) IBU hopping.  Too dry 
and bitter for a brown or mild, too dark for a bitter, but good enough 
for 10 pitchers to disappear at our church Christmas Eve potluck!  As far 
as George Fix's suggestion of a woodiness, this certainly could be 
present but it is pretty much obscured by Spec. B.  I repitched this into 
a all pale ale malt barley wine at 1.078 that is still ticking over at 
2-1/2 weeks.  Most of the yeast has settled out, and it is so flocculent 
that it sticks to the sides of the carboy.  I'll report later on how this 
turns out.

***

Several folks have asked about propane cookers, so here is my 
contribution. I don't know why I waited so long.  It saves the stove and 
the kitchen in general, is fast, gives a better boil, and boilovers are a 
lot easier to clean up from the garage floor.  I got a multi-jet burner 
rather than the blowtorch type.  It gives plenty of heat (140,000 BTU 
wide open), and is more diffuse and easier to control with the needle 
valve supplied.  Mike O'Brien, owner of Pico Brewing Systems, did a 
parallel run of this type and with a jet-type, and used less than half 
the fuel, so they are more efficient.  Of course, this means the garage 
may be colder!  I used about four lbs. propane to boil 12 gallons of 
brewing water and then reduce 9+ gallons of wort to 7-1/2 with a 1-1/2 
hour boil.  They do cost about $20 more than the jet burner.

***

Kathy Same has flat beer which she conditioned after priming for a week 
at 65^ before putting it in the cellar at 40^ (cold cellar!).  Bring it 
back upstairs, Kathy!  A couple of more weeks, and it'll do fine.

***

Eric Addkison followed a recipe exactly and got a SG of 1.030 rather than 
1.040-45 which he expected.  Assuming this is an extract recipe and not 
the result of inefficient mashing, you probably just had layering of 
your wort, and you took a sample of the more dilute portion.  It happens 
all the time.  If it really is the result of poor mash and low SG, then 
order/buy some malt extract and add it later, even after the ferment is 
over.  It'll start up again.  But I'll bet there is nothing to worry 
about.  Malt extracts are pretty consistent, and you should probably RDWHAHB.

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu

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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 15:50:21 -0500
From: Ginniff at aol.com
Subject: Alewife

In our family the non-brewers have taken to calling themselves alewives. The
name is borrowed from the fish and worn as a badge of honor by those who
suffer the indignity of sticky kitchen floors and 'malt-o-meal aroma.' A
definition follows:

Alewife, n., 1. A fish, *alosa pseudoharengus*, closely related to the
herring. 2. A spouse of a homebrewer, *matrimonius harangus*, closely related
to the golf widow, marked by indifference to the finer points of brewing,
sometimes turning to impatience and scorn.

An alewife may be male or female. What makes an alewife is not wifeness but
studied ignorance of the brewing process.They pride themselves on not knowing
a wort from a hop pellet and like to gather together in small groups and roll
their eyes.


Ciaovederci, 

Delores Thompson (GINNIFF at AOL.COM)
Peter Thompson (PTHOMPSO at COE.EDU)
Philip Thompson (PDTHOMPS at MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU)

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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 94 14:17:34 MST
From: jeff at neocad.com (Jeff Stampes)
Subject: Rhino Chaser


I have long been a fan of Rhino Chaser Amber ale...it was one of
my discoveries I was most fond of introducing friends to.  A quick
story about it: (Really, I'll get to the hbd content soon)

I used to buy it at liquor Mart in Boulder for $4.99/six-pack.  I
was amazed and in heaven!  After we had been buying it by the case 
for a fer months, they pulled the Rhino Chaser truck into the
parking lot for a week or so, and put it on "SPECIAL!" at $5.29/six.
After the sale, there I was buying the same beer for $5.99 or more...
ah well!

Anyway, I just bought one of their Holidsay Ales...and I should have
known better than to buy a beer in a clear bottle!  It was in a nice
frosted one last year and tasted wonderful...this one I opened and
my kitchen smelled like snunk...I ended up dumping the whole damn
thing.  :(

Moral:  If you don't believe dark beers skunk, boy do I have a surprise!

Jeff Stampes


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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 14:25:55 -0800 (PST)
From: John Farver <bruticus at pnw.net>
Subject: hops

 Ive got some more info on the new hop Columbus, it's bred and selected 
from the Hop Union USA breeding program in Yakima.  The cone structure is 
medium to large tight, rounded cone.  Plentiful, and pale to mid yellow 
lupulin.  AA% is 14-16 and BA% is 4.5-5.5, co-humulone is 30 to 35% of 
alpha acids, storagability is still under evaluation.  Total oil is 
1.5-2.0%v/w, myrcene is 25-45% of whole oil.  Ive used this hop and found 
it be a very flowery hop with good but not overpowering bitterness.
Also there is the Centennial-type hop, a blend designed as a temporary 
substitute for Centennial, from Hop Union.  AA% is 10-12, BA% is 4.5-5.5, 
the balance of components in this hop has been carefully selected to 
approximate- as close as possible the important resin and oil 
characteristics of the Centennial variety.  Again I personally found this 
to be abut as close as you can get to the real thing, definately worth a 
try even on its own.  Get your local supplier to get some.

Bye for now-John Farver
I have no affiliation with Hop Union excpt as friend and very satisfied 
customer.  This info comes courtesy of Ralph Olson at HU USA. 

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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 94 14:38:56 EST
From: mlloyd at cuix.pscu.com
Subject: Grain mill


This Christmas, I bought my wife a slicer/shredder for her big
KitchenAid mixer.  While at the kitchen supply store, I noticed that
KitchenAid also sells a grain mill attachment for their mixers.

Unfortunately, the store was out, so I couldn't open the box and read
all about it.  Does anyone have any experience with this type of mill?
Is it adjustable?  Does it do a nice crush, etc.

Going solely from the picture in the brochure, it looks like a Corona
type of mill rather than a roller mill.

Any input would be appreciated.  Please post to this group or send an
e-mail to mlloyd at cuix.pscu.com. Thanks.

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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 94 17:53:09 EST
From: jwc at med.unc.edu (John W. Carpenter)
Subject: Jail House Brew

In hbd1616 Mark Witherspoon told us about Grape Nuts Beer. I thought I
would share a recipe used by many convicts, so I'm told.

Jail House Brew:   Juice, any kind
                   bread
                   sock

                Put bread in sock, and then sock in juice.
                Ferment, strain, drink.

John Carpenter
Chapel Hill, NC

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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 19:04:35 -0500
From: TAyres at aol.com
Subject: BJCP EXAM, 1/28, AND GMHC, 4/8

Just a word to let interested parties know that I am offering the BJCP Exam
in Burlington, Vermont, on Saturday, January 28.  Also that the fourth annual
Green Mountain Homebrew Competition is scheduled for the Magic Hat Brewery in
Burlington on Saturday, April 8.  AHA/HWBTA sanctioned, blah, blah, blah.

E-Mail me for details.

Tom Ayres
TAyres at aol.com

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Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 20:21:00 -0500 (EST)
From: GARY SINK 206-553-4687 <SINK.GARY at epamail.epa.gov>
Subject: Cry for help, flat beer, etc


          Well, the Digest is a bit quiet during the holidays, so I'll take 
          a stab at providing some suggestions for a few folks.  I don't 
          have a fancy editor (I don't even have a decnt one) so I won't 
          quote others verbatim.
          
          Collin Ames has a batch that is down to 1.018 after three weeks.  
          IMHO, as long as your still steadily going down, you're safe 
          enough just racking to a secondary (I wouldn't leave it in the 
          primary any longer).  I think bottling this early with or without 
          added sugar is a bit risky since you don't have much control over 
          the carbonation level (although I'm sure someone out there could 
          probably calculate that for you):-)
          
          Kathy Same asked about the carbonation level of her Holiday Ale.  
          I suggest you bring it out of the basement.  40 degrees is 
          considered lager temp and is much to cold for your Ale yeast.  
          You're should be doing the entire fermentation in the 65 degree 
          range.  I usually open a bottle a week to test how my batches are 
          doing, by week four I get tired of waiting for incremental 
          improvements.
          
          Eric Pendergrass has a low SG.  Didi you add the yeast already?  
          If not, you can bring your wort to a boil again to evaporate some 
          of the liquid.  You'll probably get 4 gallons of slightly darker 
          brew).  Wait, I just had an idea!  Maybe you don't have time to 
          mailorder malt, but you can probably find some honey and convert 
          your recipe to a Honey Nut Brown Ale (makes me want to eat 
          cereal).  
          
          That's all from me.
          Gary Sink
          sink.gary at epamail.epa.gov
          


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1617, 12/29/94