FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  professional brewing courses (Lenny Garfinkel)
  US Saaz Hops (Chuck E. Mryglot)
   (George Danz 919-405-3632)
  pump question ("Timothy P. Laatsch)
  Making Wits.... (again) (Andrew Patrick)
  Dry Hopping (Drago James MAJ)
  mail note (KWERNER.MARL)
  Wit! (cole)
  Homebrew shops/shop opening possibility (Timothy Staiano)
  Lager Yeast (AUS)" <BenA at wayne.com>
  Homebrew Digest #1685 (March 21, 1995) (Ed Holderman)
  Kolsch (Michael McGuire)
  Warm Weather Brewing (TAYLOR STANDLEE)
  Re:White Beer and Orange Peel (Hmbrewbob)
  Straining vs. Racking ("Harrington, Stephen J")
  Gott Alternatives??? (Dan Sherman)
  Re: water analysis micro mhos (Richard Hampo)
  Priming for a Trippel (Tim_Fields_at_Relay__Tech__Vienna)
  Specific Gravity Calculations (RWaterfall)
  Slow Lager? (Montgomery_John)
  Four stages/yeast and hop utilization (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  A-B Kegs and Brew Systems (Kirk R Fleming)
  Keg dispensing device (Bill Rucker)
  counter-pressure bottle fillers (PGILLMAN)
  Victoria Bitter (Tony McCauley)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 12:05:17 +0200 (IST)
From: Lenny Garfinkel <lenny at zeus.datasrv.co.il>
Subject: professional brewing courses

Can anyone point me to training courses for professional brewmasters?  
Preferably in Europe, but US ok.

Lenny

_________________________________________________________________
Dr. Leonard Garfinkel       | Internet:  lenny at zeus.datasrv.co.il
Bio-Technology General      | Office Phone: 972-8-381256     
Kiryat Weizmann             | Home Phone:   972-8-451505
Rehovot, Israel             | FAX:          972-8-409041
- -----------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 95 08:16:49 EST
From: cem at cadre.com (Chuck E. Mryglot)
Subject: US Saaz Hops

Hi Everyone....

   Recently I bought a pound of US Saaz whole leaf hops  (ultimately
from G.W. Kent  Ann Arbor MI).  The AA rating was 6.2%  I have brewed
with these a few times and this rating appears to be correct.

   Now, Czech Saaz hops are usually around 3%.  

   Are the US versions of Saaz so drastically different?.... or is this
just an aberation.   I planted some US Saaz last year and am looking
forward to a decent harvest this year.   Should I assume that the AA will
be around 6% ?

   Any advice is welcome.

cheers,
chuckm

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 08:31:54 -0500
From: danz at rtp.semi.harris.com (George Danz 919-405-3632)
Subject: 

Bob Bassette asked about using yeast from bottle dregs:

===========
From: Bob Bassette <bessette at hawk.uicc.com>
Subject: Re-using old yeast from a bottle...

Fellow HBDers,
 Miller states in TCHOHB that he has successfully used yeast dregs from a bottle
of home-brew pitched into a starter for a subsequent batch. He also mentioned 
that he would not go more than one generation from the Wyeast pack-pitched 
beer. I would like to try this in an upcoming batch. He mentioned that you 
should be pretty confident of your sanitation practices before doing this. He 
also states that you should torch the top of your bottle bfore pitching the 
dregs into the starter. Has anyone out there done this and has had consistent 
success? Also any horror stories? I know that I'm risking a whole batch for 
the cost of a Wyeast pack (roughly $4.00) but I would like to give it a go. 
Please send to me directly if you have any experience with this...
=============

Bob,

One of the best bottles to get your yeast from is the secondary of the last
batch.  There is one helluva lot of yeasties in there and since you don't 
have to transfer anything, a much less chance of beasties in your yeasties.

I've done this once and plan on reapeating.  The lag period of 2 to 3 hours 
is attractive to me and the results have been damn good lager.  I haven't
tried this with ales yet.  The yeast is same generation as Miller's from 
the bottle, so no problem there.  I just start a new batch and when I'm 
ready to drain my pre-chilled brew into the carboy, I rack the fermented batch
into lager carboys or bottle if you wish, then let new batch drop into the
just emptied fermenter.  I cover the fermenter and yeast with alum. foil to 
keep out anything that might come along while I'm preparing hoses, etc. to feed
the fermenter.
- ------
            "Life's too short to drink cheap beer"

George E. Danz
danz at rtp.semi.harris.com
(919)405-3632
(919)405-3651 FAX


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 09:09:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy P. Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>" <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>
Subject: pump question

Hello,

I have an el-cheapo pseudo-3-tiered all-grain system.  I mash in my brewpot 
and then transfer the mash to a zapap lauter-tun.  I have a small brewpot 
(from my extract days) with a valve that sits on the stove and serves as my 
hot liquor tank and runs directly into the lauter-tun.  
The third tier is the brewpot, which sits on the floor and 
collects the sweet runnings.  The problem, of course, is that I cannot 
immediately and directly heat the wort because it is on the floor.  I would 
like to invest in a small liquid pump to pump the wort from an intermediate 
collection vessel on the floor (like a saucepan) and up to the brewing kettle 
on the stovetop.   This would allow me to begin heating immediately, which 
would shorten my brewday (already ridiculously long) and hopefully improve my 
beer (may help with caramelization in styles like Scotch Ales).  I've seen 
some suggestions for Teel pumps, but I'm completely ignorant of what size or 
capacity pump I need and/or where to get them.  Any suggestions would be 
appreciated and, as always, I'm looking for a bargain.  TIA.

Bones

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
	Timothy P. Laatsch               
	Graduate Student in Microbial Ecology/Bioremediation		    
	Michigan State University / W.K. Kellogg Biological Station
	Kalamazoo, MI	
	laatsch at kbs.msu.edu

	"...and your face looked like somethin' death brought with him
         in his suitcase..."----WZ
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 08:45:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Andrew Patrick <andnator at mcs.com>
Subject: Making Wits.... (again)

The making of wits has been much discussed here previously.  Isn't there a 
FAQ on this?  (No, I am not volunteering!  I really dont have the time.)

I have found the Wyeast Belgian White strain to do an excellent job.  It 
is allegedly the same strain used by Celis in Austin.

You can get some excellent "Bitter Quarters" orange peel from a mail order 
store called The Frozen Wort in either Northfield or Greenfield, Mass.  
No, I dont have the number handy, try 1-800 directory assistance.

One of the tougher things about this style is getting the wheat character 
right.  Celis' grain bill contains a large fraction of UNmalted wheat.  
This stuff is a real PITA to work with, both in terms of grinding it and 
mashing it.  Last time I made one of these, I did just used plain old DWC 
wheat malt, and the resulting beer turned out quite nicely.

The exact spice profile is somewhat controversial.  Everybody agrees that 
there is orange peel and coriander in there, but there is also another 
"secret spice" that Pierre won't reveal.  There is widespread speculation 
about what it might be....

Pierre does a secondary lactic fermentation to get that sour flavor.  I 
asked him how a homebrewer might attempt to replicate this when I saw him 
at the Dixie Cup a couple of years back.  He just smiled, and said 
"ahhhhh....  I think it is a difficult thing for a homebrewer to achieve!"
He's a funny guy.

Try adding a little bit of lactic acid to sour it up a bit, if you are 
going for an exact Celis clone.  Adjust the exact amount according to 
your tastes.

Andy Patrick (andnator at mcs.com)
Brewmaster, Harlem Brewing Co, Inc; Founder, HomeBrew U BBS Network:
Chicago 708-705-7263, Houston 713-923-6418, Milwaukee 414-238-9074

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 95 09:20:23 EST
From: tj2996 at WESTPOINT-EMH2.USMA.ARMY.MIL (Drago James MAJ)
Subject: Dry Hopping

 I had my first experience with dry-hopping recently, and it did not go well.
Looking for some advice. I brewed an IPA (8th batch) and after racking to the
secondary, added pelletized hops directly. The problems occurred when I
attempted to rack it to my bottling bucket.
 I tried attaching a sanitized nylon to the end of my racking cane, and I had a
difficult time with the hops clogging the end of the tube. Even though the
nylon kept the hop residue from travelling up the tube, transfer occurred only
for about a minute or so before clogging up. I tried several iterations with 
the nylon attaching it both loosely and tightly to the cane. Eventually, I gave
up, sanitized a strainer and went fishing for melted hop pellets that remained
at the top of the secondary. This process took a while, and I am not confident 
that the beer that went into the bottles was as clean as it should be.
 Any advice on how to successfully dry hop would be much appreciated.
                                   Jim Drago
JAMES P. DRAGO
MAJ, FA
ADMISSIONS MEDIA OFFICER
X5701

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 07:00:16 PST
From: KWERNER.MARL at rx.xerox.com
Subject: mail note

HELP

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 09:16:17 -0500
From: cole at nevism.nevis.columbia.edu
Subject: Wit!


 I am catching up on a couple of weeks worth of HBD
 and noticed the thread on Spring St Brewing and Wit!
 I bought a six-pack of this last week to see what it
 was like and found it so bad that I took 5 unopened
 bottles back to the store. It had an overwhelming off 
 sour taste which I assume can only be the result of 
 an infection. This sourness was not the kind of pleasant 
 tartness I enjoy in Celis Wit, it was nauseating. I
 have never had a homebrew (mine or anyone elses) as bad 
 as this beer. The fact that they would ship obviously
 infected beer confirms Jim's observation that they are
 more interested in law and marketing than producing a
 good beer. Hopefully they will either clean up their act
 or sink into oblivion.

 Cheers,

 Brian Cole
 cole at nevis.nevis.columbia.edu


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 10:19:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Timothy Staiano <tstaiano at ultrix.ramapo.edu>
Subject: Homebrew shops/shop opening possibility

This message is for those living in the Northern New Jersey/Southern New 
York-Conn. area, so if that excludes you, please move along.  Send flames 
regarding this localized post to stop.whining at seen.more.worthless.posts.

I already know about Red Bank Brew Supply, Hop & Vine, The Home Brewery, 
and 1 or 2 others in NJ, but does anyone know of any in the Southern 
Orange and/or Rockland County, NY area?  How about southern Conn?  Please 
reply private e-mail so as to avoid a cyber-lynching.

The reason I as is that my boss approached me about running a homebrew 
supply store located next to us, Mountain Valley Brew Pub.  As we are 
located in Suffern, NY (and I live just over the border in 'Jersey), I 
don't know of any local (within 15-20 min) hb suppliers.  We were 
wondering if there is any interest in having one in this area.

Please e-mail me if you have (or anyone you know has) a desire to see a 
new hb supplier within this region.

TIA

Have a hoppy!
Tim Staiano
tstaiano at ultrix.ramapo.edu

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 95 09:50:00 C
From: "Ben Adair (AUS)" <BenA at wayne.com>
Subject: Lager Yeast


i am fermenting my first lager, an Oktoberfest partial mash, and at about 8 
days i dry-hopped.  the next day i noticed that the yeast at the bottom of 
my fermenter breaks loose in big chunks and floats to the top and a faintly 
(very faintly) sour hint  is detectable.  i realize i am not doing my lager 
justice by using single stage by i measured a low OG and i didn't think the 
fermentation would last too long, although at 40-45 degrees i guess it 
could.
questions: am i paranoid? (i can figure that out on my own if i tried)     
        should i rack to another fermenter?


thanks,
     -ben

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 95 10:35 EST
From: Ed Holderman <0006776088 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Homebrew Digest #1685 (March 21, 1995)

>From: " Richard Byrnes Jr" <usfmczgm at ibmmail.com> 
>...2 questions, I could use some recommendations on brewpubs or 
>decent beer bars in Atlanta. 
Richard, I hate to disappoint you but, brewpubs are currently illegal in 
Atlanta (hope that changes soon).  As far as decent beer bars, you're in 
luck!  Check out any of the $3 Cafes or Rose & Crown in Buckead, Taco Mac in
Sandy Springs (I-285 & Roswell Rd.), and a couple others but I always seem 
to forget their names.  %-) 
 
>From: "Westerman, Robert" <robert.westerman at spmail.jsc.nasa.gov> 
>Subject: Bottle Cappers Again! 
>In your opinion, what is the best kind (style and brand) of bottle capper 
to use? 
>I want to give one as a gift.  I use a double lever capper (Black beauty I 
>think, with a magnet to hold the cap), but am not very impressed with it 
(it has even broke bottles in the past). 
Robert, Since I have this great talent for losing things, I have tried 
several bottle cappers.  I have only used the double lever cappers, but I 
have heard that single lever/stand alone cappers do not need as much 
strength to use, and are less fatiguing. One of mine had two plastic bottle 
contact pads, one on each side of the bottle, and the rest was metal with 
plastic coated grips.  It worked well and never broke a bottle.  Another 
sounded similar to yours; black, made in Italy, with plastic handles and a 
magnetic cap holder.  It worked very well, smooth, and didn't need much 
pressure, although that made it hard to judge when to stop squeezing - never
broke bottles.  The last one, which I have used the most, is metal with 
three metal "hooks" that latch on to the bottle underneath the 2nd lip on 
the neck.  It works fairly well, but needs a little more pressure.  The only
problem seems to be with the metal to glass contact - I have broken a couple
bottles.  Of course, I have only used non-returnable Sam Adams(TM) or Molson
type bottles in this capper (Atlanta is not into re-using), so the bottles 
are a little thinner, therefore they may break more.  I am now trying to 
convert to Grolsch type bottles with the flip-top and rubber gasket - no 
cappers! 
 
"Put another ale in your coffin"- Ed Holderman. 
 


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 95 10:23:14 CST
From: mcguire at hvsun33.mdc.com (Michael McGuire)
Subject: Kolsch

Could someone tell me the optimum fermentation teperature
for Whyeast's 2565 kolsch.

Thanks in advance 
Michael
mcguimp at vpcs.msfc.nasa.gov

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 09:28:22 -0700
From: TAYLOR STANDLEE <STANDLT at vortex.t-bird.edu>
Subject: Warm Weather Brewing

HBDers:

Today is the last day of Winter here in Phoenix, so it is basically 
the first day of summer (72 degrees at 6:00 am).  This is also my 
first year here in Az and I am wondering if there are any 
yeast that perform tolerably at warmer ferment temperatures.

Yes, I know I need to by an old refrigerator, but the temp in the 
house is hovering around 70F so does anyone have any suggestions?

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 11:33:25 -0500
From: Hmbrewbob at aol.com
Subject: Re:White Beer and Orange Peel

Hi Matt and fellow hbd'ers,
 Matt writes in #1685:
>> I was wondering how well Wyeast's Belgian White Beer Yeast >>#3944 works.
 Also, I am having trouble finding the proper orange >>peel. 
 I made my first Wit in Nov. of last year so I have abit of experience to
pass on. I used Wyeast Belgian Wit yeast and was surprised how slow it was to
finish. I left it go for 2 weeks in the pimary at 65F and racked it into the
secondary where it slowly bubbled for another 4 wks at 65F. This yeast added
a subtle "Belgian" flavor in in my beer and IMO, really helped in rounding
out the finish. Don't be alarmed by the krausen/foam that the beer will have
most of the time, Wit has a load of protein in its makeup and will support
this head.
  I didn't have much luck finding bitter orange either so I went to a spice
shop and picked up an oz of orange zest (sweet orange peel). I used 1/2 oz of
it and 1 oz of grapefruit skin (just the yellow part of the  peel) to flavor
my beer. Although I got the citris flavor I was after it was to much. Next
time I will use 1/2 oz of zest and 1/2 oz of g'fruit (which is the skin of
half a softball size g'fruit). I boiled this stuff for 30 min and added 3/4
oz of crushed coriander seed for the final 10 min.  I added 10ml of lactic
acid in my bottling bucket but I think the citris taste masked it abit. Since
I like that lactic taste my next batch of Wit will have 15ml of lactic acid,
but you might want to start out with 10ml.
  Because Kyle and many others have problems with grinding unmalted wheat why
not use flaked wheat? It's unmalted wheat that has been sent thru rollers
with the added benefit of having the wheat gelatinized in the process. 

Bob Ledden
  

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Date: 21 Mar 1995 08:53:22 -0800
From: "Harrington, Stephen J" <sharrington at msmail4.hac.com>
Subject: Straining vs. Racking

Guy,

I used to pour the wort through a metal strainer and a funnel into my carboy. 
I was constantly having problems with the hops clogging things up.  When I
switched to using a 5 gallon pot, it was too heavy to move safely and try to
wrestle with the clogging hops.  I now rack from the pot right to the carboy. 
It is much easier, and also aerates better.  At the end of the tube which goes
into the carboy, I put a small piece of racking cane with a hole drilled
through the side.  This acts as a venturi (sp?) and puts lots of 02 into the
wort (I got this idea from Fred Waltman).  I strongly recommend that you rack
instead of strain.

Stephen Harrington
Manhattan Beach, CA

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 09:23:24 -0800 (PST)
From: dsherman at sdcc3.ucsd.edu (Dan Sherman)
Subject: Gott Alternatives???

I posted this message to rec.crafts.brewing a day ago & thought that
there may also be some interest & good feedback on the HBD.  I'll
post a summary when I've compiled all of the responses.  TIA.


I was in Kmart a couple of days ago, looking for inexpensive brewing
supplies, when I came upon a couple of Rubbermaid chest-type
coolers.
Rubbermaid makes the popular Gott drink coolers & these chest-type
coolers are also designed to handle both hot and cold liquids.  The
6.5 gal. cooler was about $17 and the 12 gal. was about $19.  Much
cheaper than the orange Gott drink coolers (Kmart has the 5 gal. for
$30).

Does anyone know if there is a reason NOT to use these chest-type
coolers?

Now, a couple of technical questions...

I do primarily 5 gal. batches, with the occasional 2.5 gal. batch.
Is the 12 gal. cooler going to be too big for a 5 gal. batch (not
sufficient grain bed depth)?  Would I lose too much heat, due to the
large space between the top of the grain bed and the lid of the
cooler?

The 6.5 gal. Rubbermaid cooler doesn't have a drain spiggot.  Would
there be a problem with drilling my own?  Is there some sort of
insulation between the inside and outside cooler walls that would
pose a problem?  Any recommendations on how to fit my own spiggot?

The 6.5 gal. cooler is the perfect size for the brewing I do now,
but the 12 gal. for only $2 more (plus a drain hole) is tempting.

Thanks!!

Dan Sherman
dsherman at ucsd.edu
San Diego, CA 

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 95 12:30:02 EST
From: captain at vulcan.srl.ford.com (Richard Hampo)
Subject: Re: water analysis micro mhos

Howdy,

I can't recall who asked this, but a few days ago someone
asked about the water conductance number that they got on their
water analysis. The units listed are micromhos. One mho is
simply the inverse of an ohm (which is one volt per amp).
So if the water has conductance of one michromho, it has resistance of
one megohm. I do not know what else goes into the test (i.e. the area and
distance over which this number is measured), but that is
what the units mean.

Happy Brewing,

Richard Hampo
H&H Brewing
Ford Research Laboratory

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 95 12:36:54 EST
From: Tim_Fields_at_Relay__Tech__Vienna at RELAY.COM
Subject: Priming for a Trippel

     My next brew will be a Belgian trippel (extract recipe), and I want to 
     prime it with fresh yeast as well as sugar.  From what I gather, I 
     should use 1 C of sugar and a one pint starter of yeast for a 5 gallon 
     batch.  My last brew was also a Belgian, and it ended up 
     under-carbonated (i think.  Used only sugar for priming and less than 
     a cup).  I want to avoid under-carbonation, but i also want to avoid 
     exploding bottles.  I'd appreciate any insights you all have.
     
     Thanks!
     
     Tim Fields
     Relay Technology SQL/DS Team
     Timf at relay.com


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 12:54:40 -0500
From: RWaterfall at aol.com
Subject: Specific Gravity Calculations

In #1684, Gary Bell writes,

"...using the table on page 268 in
Charlie Papazian's TNCJOHB to estimate the specific gravity of
your wort. DON'T! I posted on this last week; the table, for some
strange reason, represents some kind of strange polynomial
function. The relationship is purely linear. Assuming that your
DME contributes 42 pts/lb, if you add a pound of DME to a gallon
of water you increase the OG by 42 points. Thus two pounds per
gallon gives an OG of 1.084, three pounds per gallon gives 1.126,
four pounds would give 1.168, and five pounds would result in a
whopping 1.210 (don't try this at home kids!)."

I disagree Gary, it is not at all linear.  The malt is adding volume as well
as weight to the wort.  If we assume that dry malt extract in water is an idea
l solution (a bad assumption BTW), then the specific gravity of the solution
is equal to the sum of the masses divided by the sum of the volumes divided
by the density of water.  Here's the strange polynomial equation after
simplifying it:

sg=  (Mmalt + 8.34*Vw)
       ------------------------------------
       ((Mmalt/1.54) + (8.34*Vw/1))

And,

Wort Volume=      Mmalt
                         ---------------------    +    Vw
                           8.34*1.54

Where Mmalt is the weight of malt in lb, Vw is the volume of water in gal,
1.54 is the sg of maltose (it also agrees with back calculating from the 42
pt/lb/gal at 1lb/1gal of wort).  1 gallon of water weighs 8.34 lb at 60F.

In #1685 Bob Paolino responded to Gary "- -->I wonder (again, without having
the table at hand, or even having read it
   carefully, I confess) whether Charlie's numbers take into account the
   additional volume contributed by the extract, and if that might explain
   any difference.  That is, is that 1.035 (or whatever the actual number is
   depending on the particular extract, which is why I said mid-30s rather
   than 1.035) is for a liquid extract added to a gallon of water (for a
   total volume greater than one gallon) or for a volume of extract and
   water that equals one gallon?  It does make a difference, of course,
   although the practical difference for determining a U% which is only an
   approximation anyway is uncertain.

   It's possible that one is talking about an amount of extract plus a volume
   of water, and the other is a volume of diluted extract, and both results
   could conceivably be correct."

Pretty much, Bob.  If you substitute 1 lb malt and .922 gal of *water* into
the equations above you get 1 gal of *wort* at sg=1.042.  If you add 1 lb of
malt to that you get 1.078 gallons of 1.078sg *wort*.  If you add a third lb
of malt you get 1.156 gal of 1.109sg wort.  I ran a spread sheet with lb of
DME down the side and gal of water across the top and calculated the sg and
volume of each mixture using those equations.  I checked several points on my
table vs. CP's table and they agree within 0.001.  So Charlie's right.  But
guess what happens when you boil those enlarged worts back to 1 gal.  You got
it, Gary is right too!  Basically, the linear thing works as long as you
remember that it's 42 (or whatever) points per lb per gallon of *wort*, not
*water*.  Charlie's tables work if you are trying to amend a wort in progress
to a given sg and to heck with the final volume of wort.

 Like I said before though, wort is probably not an ideal solution, meaning
that the total volume won't quite be the sum of the volumes of the original
components.  This makes the density greater. I looked into the some organic
chemistry data compliations and found a couple of tables of actual
measurements of the density of different concentrations of maltose in water.
 The one at 20 C agrees pretty well with the above equation (with a slight
correction for the density of water at 20C not being exactly 1.00). The one
at 15.5C isn't as close, but a change in the density of maltose with temp may
bring it closer.  The equation underpredicts the gravity a little at the high
end (e.g., at 19.56% maltose by weight and 15.5C,  the predicted density is
1.072 as compared with the actual value of 1.0798). So actually, it seems
like both ways of figuring it are wrong.  But, since we don't often go over 2
lb extract per gallon, then either model is good enough for government
workers and homebrewers (of which I am both ;-)).

Sorry about the BW, but think of how long it would have been if I included
the tables and spreadsheet.

Bob Waterfall,
Troy, NY, USA



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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 95 11:57:00 CST
From: Montgomery_John at lanmail.ncsc.navy.mil
Subject: Slow Lager?


Hi,
 Got a question for you folks. What kind of time frame should I be 
 looking at for a lager to ferment out completely? I've got a batch that 
 I'm beginning to *gasp* worry about (thank goodness I've got some other 
 homebrew to relax with).

 Here's the scenario:
    6.5 lbs Light DME
    9 AAU's hops
    Wyeast Pilsen liquid lager yeast

 Methodology (ala Noonan's Brewing Lager Beers):
 Day 1 -  Pitched a 1 qt starter at 70F. (Forgot the O.G. reading)
 Day 2.5 - Active fermentation within 36 hours at 53F.
 Day 14 - Racked to secondary (temp at 48F).
          Two day Diacetyl rest at 53F.
 Day 16 - Began walking temp down to set point of 33 - 37F.
 Day 24 - Temp at Lagering temp (~35F).
 Day 45 - Beer has been lagering for 21 days.
 Day 66 - Airlock looks still. Attempt to bottle but upon moving 
 fermenter from fridge to kitchen, airlock gets active and I notice 
 bubbles rising. I abort and take gravity readings SG: 1.014, Balling: 
 3.75
 Day 72 - Take gravity readings. SG: 1.013, Balling: 3.63

 So what's the deal. Is this thing taking too long? Am I being 
 impatient? Is the lagering temp too cold? Anybody have any clues? Sorry 
 if this took a lot of bandwidth, but I'm perplexed. TIA.

John M.
montgomery_john at lanmail.ncsc.navy.mil



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Date: 21 Mar 95 14:45:00 -0600
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Four stages/yeast and hop utilization

Bob writes:
>The other downside to gyle is that it can leave a ring around the neck
>of the bottle, since the yeast has to got through all 4 stages again
>and the ring is nothing more than a high kraeusen mark...

This may be true, but I don't see why the yeast would not go through the
same stages for dextrose priming as they would for malt or gyle priming.
Based upon my own experiments, I feel quite confident that it's protein that
makes up the ring and that force-cooling the primings after the boil (and
then leaving the break OUT of the bottling vessel) eliminates the ring
around the neck.  Corn sugar has no protein and therefore no ring whether
you force-cool the primings or not.

***
Bradd writes:
>Please, save me from buying [Garetz's] book... how does he account for
>his supposed increase in [utilization] with more flocculent yeasts?

No need to buy the book.  You can find the information for yourself
in the library in the ASBC Proceedings from 1955 (I believe).  In one
paper, the author states that you can expect 10% more bitterness in a
beer made with highly flocculent yeast than you would get if the yeast was
less flocculent.  The reason being that if the yeast spend more time
in solution they have more time to adsorb the isomerized alpha acids.
Those that fall out quickly have less effect.

It's difficult, at best, to use this information, since all yeast are
somewhere between "extremely flocculent" and "not flocculent at all"
and it's not easy to predict how much of that 10% *additional* loss you can
expect from your yeast (naturally, all yeasts will adsorb some amount,
but the less flocculent ones will adsorb more).  You can get a rough idea
from brewing the same recipe with different yeasts but try a new yeast and
it's back to the drawing board.

Al.

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 18:06:26 -0700
From: flemingk at usa.net (Kirk R Fleming)
Subject: A-B Kegs and Brew Systems

RE: #1685 Bradd asks about kegs

>From: braddw at banjo.rounder.com (Bradd Wheeler)
>Subject: New to the keg Biz

> What kind of kegs is A-B using these days?

All-stainless Sankey's are the only kind of A-B kegs *I have seen*.

>If I were to have a separate hot liquor tank would I be able to 
>sufficiently mash/lauter 10 gal batches in a 1/4 keg then boil in 
>a 1/2 keg?  This means two false bottoms and two ball valves, but 
>I want a separate mash/lautering vessel.

It's real hard for me to glean what you're describing, but here's 
what I *think* you're proposing...either a) you want to use two 1/4
bbl kegs to simultaneously mash in, then at mash out go into a single
1/2 bbl keg/kettle for the boil.  If I'm reading you correctly, then
I say the answer is yes, you can do that, but the problems of 
temperature control and costs of building a mash/lauter tank are 
all doubled, along with a doubling of the tempo of the work you 
have to do during the mash cycle.

The most expensive and troublesome aspect of building a three-keg system
for me was: getting fittings for the keg and getting them welded to the
keg, cutting open the keg, and getting good false bottoms.  Recommendation
here is: hold out for a single 1/2 bbl keg for use as a mash/lauter unit.

OR...b) You *really* mean you want to mash in a single 1/4 bbl keg, 
mash out into the 1/2 bbl kettle, and add make-up water to get the 
final brew length you want.  If THIS is what you're talking about, 
then I don't understand your comment about needing two false 
bottoms--unless you're proposing to use one in the kettle, which 
isn't worth the effort.  Here is my experience with a three-keg system:

For a ten-gallon batch you're looking at 18-22 lbs of grain or more, 
to which you have to add 6-8 gallons of water.  Although you can load
the mash tun up to the gills with goodies since you don't have to boil,
I think you'd never come close to getting 20 lbs of grain and 7 gal of 
water in a 7 3/4 gal tank with the top cut off.  When we mash 22 
lbs of grain in a 1/2 bbl keg we have about 30% available space 
left--but this is well over the 8 gal center seam of the keg.

>I had the idea of building a conical vent hood for the kettle 
>that would have an immersion chiller permanently attached.  Would
>there be a detrimental effect from having the chiller immersed 
>throughout the entire boil?

I see no harm in having the chiller in the boil for the duration; 
kettles were once all-copper, after all.  We have to reduce quite 
a bit of volume sometimes, from 12 gal down to 10 at our reduction 
rate of 1 gal/hr.  So...we don't want to cover the kettle.  Unless 
you plan to cover the kettle with a blown hood and run the fan all 
the time, you may find you get slower reductions than you really 
want.  I make the trade-off in favor of lower boil-start volumes 
(closer to target final volume) and sacrifice the higher yields of 
a longer, more voluminous sparge.
Kirk R Fleming
Colorado Springs
flemingk at usa.net


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 21:56:22 -0500
From: brewzer at peanut.mv.com (Bill Rucker)
Subject: Keg dispensing device

I have been following with great interest, the thread on the beer engine. I
have a question for anyone who may have had the impulse to build a
dispensing device for your average everyday lager or whatever. What did you
do to make and how does it work? If you have not done this maybe you are
thinking of it and have a good idea that may work. I want to be able to
dispense 3-4 kegs at once without all the hoses going everywhere. I am using
the 5 gallon corny kegs and a spare refrigerator in the basement. Any ideas
would be welcome and possibly tried.

TIA
Cheers!
____________________________________________________________________________
________


                                   Bill Rucker

Work: cewgr at alpha.naesco.com                         Home: brewzer at peanut.mv.com


                     ***   Wherever you go, there you are!  ***


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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 19:04:09 -0800 (PST)
From: PGILLMAN at POMONA.EDU
Subject: counter-pressure bottle fillers

i am interested in building or purchasing a counter-pressure bottle filler-
can anyone help with info on design of or suppliers of this?
tia-
phil
pgillman at pomona.edu

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Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 22:25:38 -0600 (CST)
From: afmccaul at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Tony McCauley)
Subject: Victoria Bitter

I'm floating a query out here for a co-worker.

    Pat asks if Victoria Bitter from Australia is imported into the US?  He
tasted the beer on his last visit and loves it.

    He plans to ship a case or two back on his next visit.  Anybody had any
experience shipping beer from Australia?  How about the cost if you've done it?
(I've heard some horror stories, experience and $$$, about shipping from Europe
and England.)

    Private responses are fine.

    TIA (and Pat thanks you also),

        Tony McCauley -- afmccaul at ilstu.edu

 .

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1686, 03/22/95