FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  RIMS programming (Chuck Wettergreen)
  Source of seed barley? (Kelly Jones)
  Wooden Casks ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  Re:  Cornelius Kegging Questions (john shearer)
  noble hops & yeast question (A2J)
  hot sparge (George Danz 919-405-3632)
  Covered boils/racking off trub/floral? Cascades/reusing hops (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Chilling Wort With Ice (Daniel Burke)
  RE:Spring Brewing stock offering (JOHNMAJ)
  Priming w/ Honey: My Mileage (Gee Starr)
  airlock stopped/30-hour ferment/long secondary/Orval consulting/DME priming (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  TIA\Starters\All grain Mashing (MClarke950)
  wort aeration and plumbing tip (PERSAND)
  Beer Engine comment (PERSAND)
  AFCHBC Results Request (Dion Hollenbeck)
  carboy vs. TSP (FR BRADLEY BARBER)
  Retraction:  posting of competition results (Jay Lonner)
  Yeast Culturing (Doug Flagg)
  Yeast, Hand Towels, RIMS ("Robert W. Mech")
  coleman coolers (Lenny Garfinkel)
  Is all HDPE plastic food grade? (Aric Rothman)
  Re: DWC Based Malt Extracts (James L Blue)
  CO2 Output (Brenton, Chris)
  Valley Mill (Douglas O'Brien)
  Moravian malts ("Harralson, Kirk")
  anyone want to share some bitter orange peel? ("Lee A. Kirkpatrick"                       )
  yap... ("Paul Stokely")
  Recirculation Pump (Ben Rettig)
  CO (MnMGuy)
  Curacao/Orange Peel Sources (Aaron Shaw)
  Why decoction mash ("Lee A. Menegoni")



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 13:32:37 -0500
From: chuckmw at mcs.com (Chuck Wettergreen)
Subject: RIMS programming

RIMS constructioneers!

Bill Machrone's (sp?) column in the February PC Magazine described a piece of
Radio Shack hardware which might just fit the bill for automating your RIMS
system.

He described something called a BASIC stamp card. This little (2" X 3")
circuit board hooks up to your computer serial port and can be programmed
with the BASIC supplied on a diskette. It has a number (6? 9?) of in/out
ports for, as he described it, just about any sensor or LED you'd care to
hook up, all cheaply available from Radio Shack. It is powered by a 9V
battery and costs $29. Another model costs $49 and has more in/out ports,
plus additional features. Sounds like it could be used for either RIMS or
refrigerator temp control.

He described radio controlled model airplane builders using this board to
sense when the radio signal is lost and then initiate one of several flight
patterns which should bring the plane back into radio range.

I'm (obviously) not electronically gifted, but this little number sounds
pretty darn easy to set up, providing you can program a little in BASIC,
and anyone can do that...

Cheers,
Chuck

/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*
Chuck Wettergreen
chuckmw at mcs.com
Geneva, Il
/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*


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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 12:50:25 -0600
From: k-jones at ee.utah.edu (Kelly Jones)
Subject: Source of seed barley?

I'm interested in planting some barley in the backyard garden this year.
Mostly for aesthetic purposes; I doubt it would be worth the effort for
brewing.  Does anyone know where to buy small quantities of seed quality
barley?  I've planted wheat which came straight from the bulk section of
the food store before, and it sprouted just fine.  However, the barley I've
seen there is usually 'pearled', which I suspect would not sprout so well.
Ditto for the flaked. :) Does anyone know of a source (mail order or
otherwise) for sproutable barley?

Kelly



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Date: Wed, 05 Apr 95 14:00:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: Wooden Casks


In an earlier HBD I asked for info re: sources of wooden casks and was given 
the phone number of BrewLab, whom I called today.  I spoke with Jim who was 
conducting beer-related experiments with a new cask when I called.  He 
explained that there were a number of issues related to the use of wooden 
casks, and he was trying to determine just what conditioning would be 
required to make them useable.

The casks he offers are made of American white oak, and he told me this oak 
is different from European oak in that it has a higher concentration of 
leachable tannins.  He was finding that batch one from a fresh cask had 
noticeable "oak" qualities.

He did say he felt he would be able to provide a fairly complete and 
accurate picture of what the use of wooden casks would involve by the end of 
the month, and that an associate would publish his Final Report on the 'net. 
 I also offerred to post his report here if it was of an "appropriate" 
nature.

In any case, even though I told Jim I would be very willing to pay his $70 
for a 3 gal cask (he offers the 5 gal at $90), he made no attempt to sell me 
one.  He instead seemed far more concerned I understand the limitations and 
problems of this technology.  He got points for that.  Brew Lab is at 
800-900-8410 or 610-821-8410.

I have no affiliation or fin interest in BrewLab and to date have not been a 
customer; I only felt that many in the HBD community would be interested in 
such a product.  There is at least one person who thinks I'm positively 
insane for even considering the idea.

Kirk R Fleming / Colorado Springs / flemingk at usa.net

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Date: Wed,  5 Apr 95 16:30:52 PDT
From: jds at equinox.ShaysNet.COM (john shearer)
Subject: Re:  Cornelius Kegging Questions

In HBD1697 Jim Fitzgerald writes asking for help with his 'cornelius 
kegging'.  Now I don't consider myself an expert by any means, but I have had 
great success with kegging and would like to help where I can.  There is a 
chart in Byron Burch's book (I forget the title, but it's that thin one) 
which describes various pressures to use, a time structure, etc for kegging. 
 The same chart is also in Zymurgy's special issue on 'Gadgets'.  In that 
same issue is also a good compilation of other kegging products and 
procedures.

Again, I don't consider myself an expert, but my last keg stayed under 
pressure for several weeks with no noticable change until the last 2 or 3 
mugs which were a little foamy (I used about 8psi to dispense).

This leads me to something I've been wondering about for a while.  OK, it may 
be a little obvious, but how do commercial breweries carbonate their beer?  

jds


- --------------------------------------------------------

jds at equinox.shaysnet.com

'I..am not an..animal!  I..am a..Home Brewer!


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Date:     Wed, 05 Apr 1995  16:47:25 EDT
From: A2J at CU.NIH.GOV
Subject:  noble hops & yeast question

 Neophyte Questions of the day:

 1. I just received my Noble hops from SA. Does anyone have a great
    extract recipe I could use these in ?

 2. I was at our local brewpub and was talking with the brewer/owner.
    When I told him that I was just learnig how brew beer he offerd
    me free yeast. He said to just bring a jar and he would fill it up.
    I'd be intersted to hear anyones thoughts on this. What kind of
    container, how should I clean the jar, how much do I need, or is
    just a bad idea altogether ? Does this stuff keep in the fridge?

 Thanks for you help,

 A.Lake (a2j. at cu.nih.gov)



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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 17:29:05 -0400
From: danz at rtp.semi.harris.com (George Danz 919-405-3632)
Subject: hot sparge

The below concerns several of us who have used real hot sparge without
first raising mash to 168F prior to sparging.  As you can read below, I
tried this last batch and after tasting after boil didn't seem to be 
tannic in nature.  I was doing a clone Oktoberfest using #1338 Wyeast per
an article which referenced George Fix doing Oktoberfest beer.  This
as you may know is an ALE yeast, but is supposed to be clean of ALE like 
esters.  We'll see.


I've been told the same thing and I inadvertantly did a near 212 sparge
last brew session a week or so ago.  Still fermenting wildly, after a week, 
but I had such great extraction... 1066 with 20.25 lbs grain for 11 gals in 
fermenter that I'm wondering if there just isn't enough time in the hot stuff
to cause significant leaching of tannins?

I'm going to be very critical of this batch, but I'm wondering if anyone
else has also been doing this?

- ------
Best Regards,

George E. Danz              Address:
danz at rtp.semi.harris.com      PO Box 13996
(919)405-3632 Work            Research Triangle Park, NC 27709
(919)405-3651 FAX             

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Date: 5 Apr 95 16:33:00 -0500
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Covered boils/racking off trub/floral? Cascades/reusing hops

Jim writes:
>I was not referring to DMS.  The condensate contains very 
>unpleasent bitter compounds that are better left out of the wort.

I have not noticed any off-flavours at all, DMS or any other type.
Perhaps what needs to be done is that the condensate should be
collected and tasted?  I'll try to remember to do this.

***
>If I  make fruity, hoppy pale ales or dark ales,
>I tend not to notice if I leave any break material in the carboy, perhaps 
>because the flavor profile of these beers is already dominated by esters and
>the like. However, a Munich Helles, or any other light tasting lager will
>clearly show the effects of sitting on the trub in terms of pholic and perhaps
>oxidized flavors. I made a Munich dunkel last spring that was somewhat
>phenolic, and which grew worse through time. I attributed this flavor and
>lack of stability to a poor job of racking the beer off the trub (it was
>fermented at 50 F.). Other opinions/suggestions?

I don't make any special efforts to rack off the cold break, although I
do skim the hot break off the top of the boil and I although I make mostly
ales, I've made some very light, very pale, relatively low-hop-rate ales
which would have shown off flavors quite easily.  Unless you are letting
the finished beer sit on the trub for weeks, I really don't think there
is a lot of off-flavour from not racking early-on in the batch.  Phenolic
flavours are almost always a sign of wild yeast infection -- the "grew
worse through time" is also an indication that this was a wild yeast
infection.  I have to disagree that this flavour was due to your not racking
off the trub.

***
Lee writes:
 I suppose it could be done but in your example... Cascades, they 
 would more than likely not be a good candidate for a bittering hop as 
 they tend to leave a more floral taste (best way I can explain it) 
 when boiled for too long and I generally fault a beer in competition 
 that displays that characteristic.  Although, YMMV of course.

I'm confused by this.  It's the "when boiled too long" part that I find
confusing.  Cascades are well known for their citrusy/grapefruity
aroma and flavour.  I have made many beers with Cascades as the bittering
hop and have not noticed a "floral taste."  I also am rather bothered
by your statement that you "generally fault a beer in a competition
that displays this characteristic."  If it is a Munich Helles or an
American Premium Lager and has a floral aroma, then perhaps it is not
in style, but if you are lowering the score of an American Pale Ale
or a Stout because it has a floral character, then I must disagree.

Personally, I believe that Willamettes have a slight floral bouquet.
Many French beers have a tendancy to have a floral character, for
example Bruegg Lager.  I don't know what kind of hops the French use,
perhaps Strisselspalt?

Lee continues:
 I don't know if you read Noonans book on Scottish Ales but he states 
 that as you only utilize ~ 30% of the available bittering acids, the 
 hops may be and are being re-used in a second runnings beer.  

I don't have my copy here and I have not read it cover-to-cover yet,
but I believe that either Noonan or Lee may be misinterpreting something
here.  In fact, a great deal more than 30% of the available bittering
acids are removed from the hops -- however, much of the acids are lost
due to a number of factors and no more than 20-30% of the available
bittering acids actually *make it to your drinking glass*.  Losses include
insolubility in the wort and fermentation losses.  It does not mean that
70% of the acids remain in the hops.  I have read that brewers used to
(and perhaps some still do) make several beers from 1st, 2nd and 3rd
runnings and that hops were reused in these subsequent boils, but it is
*incorrect* to say that this is possible because only 30% of the bittering
potential of the hops is utilized in the first boil.

Al.

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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 17:00:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: Daniel Burke <dburke at eden.com>
Subject: Chilling Wort With Ice

A friend asked me today about simply putting large chunks of ice into the 
brewpot after the boil to chill the wort (instead of using a chiller).

His plan is to freeze distilled water in gallon jugs, and then slit the 
jug off and plop the 1 gallon ice blob into the hot wort.  I advised 
against it, but after thinking about it, I'm hard pressed to say exactly 
why.  I suppose you could minimize splashing and avoid aeration, and if 
the water's sterile to begin with maybe infection wouldn't be a problem.

Anyone had any experience with this method of wort chilling?  Good 
experiences or bad would be welcome.  Please do not reply directly to me; 
you may reply to Steve Ligon, sligon at smtpgate.tnrcc.texas.gov.  He has 
e-mail access but no digest.

Thanks once again,
Daniel Burke
dburke at eden.com

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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 18:53:53 -0400
From: JOHNMAJ at aol.com
Subject: RE:Spring Brewing stock offering

I got Spring Street's prospectous at the Camdenfest 95 beer festival. The
first thing that struck me odd was that the company was there giving away
their packets, but they had no beer. To my mind what better way to convince
people to buy stock in a brewery than by giving them a sample of your great
beer.

 First Spring Street is a contract brewerey. There beers are made at
Minnesota Brewing Company. Read this as meaning a very minimal outlay to get
started. The company has two brewers signed on as consultants, Herm Heggar,
and Doctor Joesph L Owades. Herm Heggar produced wit beer in Belguim, and was
good enough at it to sell his brewery. Dr Owades is a brewing scientist of
some kind I think. 

Anyway for me the bottom line was in two years of operation the company spent
$900.000 dollars, and sold 2957 barrels of beer. Considering they own no
property, and paid nothing for equipment this does not seem to be a good
deal. Also the stock you buy for $1.50 is immediatly deluted to $1.21. The
company has never paid dividends, and does not plan to in the forseeable
future. Also this stock will not be tradeable on the stock market. 

The company is in large part owned by a New York Advertising firm called
Mezzina/Brown Inc. This in and of itself would not make me nervous, but
almost all the $4 million they hope to raise with this offering will go into
advertising. 

Given the fact that they have already spent close to $1 million in
advertising, and promotions, and sold less in two years than some brewpups do
in a year, I think I could find better ways to invest my money.

John Majetic

Why? Because we love to hate Zima 

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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 18:01:25 -0500
From: geestarr at edge.ercnet.com (Gee Starr)
Subject: Priming w/ Honey: My Mileage

Well, two batches ago I found sitting down to bottle a "let's clean the
closet" batch only to find that I had apparently cleaned too well: the
cupboard wassurprisingly bare of both corn sugar and DME (actually, I
suspect house-key wielding neighbors over a lapse in personal prudence, but
I took a left-over lasagna from their fridge other night, so what can I
say?)...anyhow, after a quick check of CP's HBCompanion, I substituted one
cup of clover honey.

The result was the best-carbonated batch I've done. Perhaps a bit on the
bubbly side, but I wrote that off to bottling a bit to soon before
fermentation was complete, and at any rate, no gushers, no grenades, just
well-bubbled brew.

Fast forward to yesterday (4 April) wherein, upon sitting down to bottle a
well-fermented mutant-stout, I discovered that the missing corn sugar and
DME had not mysteriously re-appeared. So I reached for the clover honey
again, preparing  one cup and whistling a tune of fond apprehension.

Then today I check my week-long backlog of HBD to find the vox hopuli
(ouch) almost feverish with warnings! "One cup equals death by shrapnel!"
"Three quarters cup or burst!"  "Give it half or you'll get Hell!" 

Yikes! Even as I sit here I wonder what type of oversized Rorsharch Test
might loom from my ceiling in the next few days...then again, so far one
cup has served me well (it was *one* cup wasn't it...that *is* what I wrote
down, isn't it?...damn the devils of apprehension and selective memory
pitchforking my brain!)

Anyhow...for those wanting answers to the "how much honey" question,
consider my the pig of guinea. Wagers, anyone?

gee

 ------------------------------------------------- /  \ ----
| <geestarr at edge.ercnet.com>                      o o  o    |              
     
| "...and the 'g' stands for 'non-sequitur.'"     o O       |  
 --------------------------------------------------- o -----



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Date: 5 Apr 95 16:37:00 -0500
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: airlock stopped/30-hour ferment/long secondary/Orval consulting/DME priming

Rob writes:
>I racked the beer Friday evening and will probably bottle tonight. One thing
>I did notice was that within 24 hours of racking there was no more bubbling
>in the airlock. Is that normal?

The agitation and pressure changes during racking cause a lot of the CO2
that was dissolved in the beer to come out of solution.  After racking the
beer, if there is still some sugar for the yeast to eat, it can take a
day or two for the beer to re-saturate with CO2.  Until the beer is saturated
with CO2, the airlock will not show activity.  Your question is one of
two that can be generated by this phenomenon.  The other question is: "My
beer seemed done, but when I racked it to the secondary, fermentation began
again."  Actually, most often, this is just the CO2 coming out of solution
due to the agitation of racking.  In some circumstances, however, rousing
the yeast can sometimes cause a stuck ferment to restart, but usually this
is only for very high gravity worts or very flocculant yeasts.

***
Jeff writes:
>Spruce Lager,  but it seems the fermentation has all but stopped, just a 
>little over 30 hours since it started.  I pitched two packets of M & F Ale 
>yeast, at 72 degrees, and I am wondering what to do now...

At 72 degrees, M&F (dry) ale yeast can compleat most of it's work in 30 hours.
What you should do is wait 3 to 7 days for the yeast to settle and then on
to bottling.

***
Gary writes:
>I brewed a lager (extract) with Wyeast liquid yeast. After about a week
>of very nice fermenting in the primary (at about 65 deg F), I transfered
>it over to the secondary (at about 50 deg F). Well, due to work, and 
>projects (all the wife's) around the house, over 2 months has passed
>and it's still in there. Is it still good ("Lagering" at 50 deg) for 2 
>months, or is it tree fertilizer. If it's still good, should I get my ass
>in gear and bottle now (and do I need to add more yeast).

Sounds more like a "steam" beer than a lager.  At 65F, it doesn't matter
that you used lager yeast -- it's going to have some ale character/esters.
Two months at 50F should not be a problem -- go ahead and bottle it.  Had
you not racked to a secondary you may have gotten some off flavours, but
I think your beer should be just fine.  Some say add more yeast, but
personally, I would not.

***
Jim writes:
>Since he is a paid brewer, why should we give away recipes on some hard
>to make styles, so he can make money on em?  Shouldnt a pro brewer who 
>wants this have to pay something for it?  OK, SNPA and Liberty are no
>brainers, but Orval...... If its references he wants, Id be happy to 
>do some consulting for him.

Ahem... I have a half-case of homebrewed Orval clones in the basement
and would be willing to consult also.  Have you similar credentials Jim?  ;^).

***
Rob writes:
>Are all of you folks 
>switching over from using corn sugar to honey, DME to honey, or what? I would
>like to hear some chatter about people's experiences with priming with DME!

I'm not switching to honey priming.  I switched from dextrose to DME and then
back again when I got "ring around the collar" from the protein in the DME.
Corn sugar (dextrose) is easier, cheaper and the beer tastes exactly the
same as with DME priming, so why bother, unless you want to put "Reinheitsgebot"
on your bottles?

Al.

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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 19:45:40 -0400
From: MClarke950 at aol.com
Subject: TIA\Starters\All grain Mashing

Jay Seigfreid asks: 
>What does TIA mean.  Where Is the faq?, man.  I
>keep seeing this but don't have a clue. 
Thanks In Advance
There's a Homebrew Digist accronym file in the archives Stanford.edu.  

Keith asks:
>Now I am interested in preparing a healthy starter in as little time
>without compromising the quality of it.  I am thinking of taking 5 >cups
water boiling it and adding 1 cup DME chill and pitch in a large >jar with
air lock. It should be at high kr. the next day--BREW DAY.  >Oh ya, I'd also
hop the starter with a few pelots.  
>I'd appreciate comments on whether I should make step, wait until >after
high kr... 

Keith, I usually pop the seal on the wyeast and let it rise.  In a day or so
I  boil a pint of water and add 6 tablespoons of dry extract and one hop
cone.  I let the wort cool to room temperature (covered) before I pitch the
yeast.  A 22oz or champagne bottle works well.  I usually pick up the yeast
on tuesday if I'm going to brew on Saturday. YMMV.   
 .
Bob askes:
>Any advice on pros/cons of infusion vs. decoction mashing would be 
>appreciated.
>I'm planning to use a chest-type cooler for>mashing, and a 7 gallon
>plastic bucket with a false bottom for sparging. 
>Has anyone  experienced batch to batch off flavors using plastic.

For ales, infusion is the way to go.  Use decoction when you're trying to
create authentic lagers or specialty ales (see the decoction FAQ in the HBD
archives). I use a 8 gallon kettle to mash in and I made an insulated box to
set it in (thanks to Dave Miller.)  People get excellent results with
coolers, but I like the versatilityof being able to experiment.  I can do
step infusion mashing, decoction or infusion.A cooler pretty much dictates an
infusion mash.  I also use the two bucket sparge system without any off
tastes. 
	    
Question: I primed a brown ale with sugar-in-the-raw (Demarara (sp?)sugar?)
and I used 3/4 cup.  The beer is over carbonated, I get abpout a half a glass
of foam.  Has anyone else used this before.


TIA
Mike



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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 21:02:25 -0400
From: PERSAND at aol.com
Subject: wort aeration and plumbing tip

What seems to work for me is this:  I syphon my chilled wort from the
boilling kettle at a height of about 3' into my primary vessel.  This gives
me about  8" of foam on top.  I then add the proofed (wyeast or dry) yeast
and stir for 5 minutes.  I usually get fermentation activity within 5-8
hours.

My brewery/laundry tub has a male garden hose outlet.  To attach various
items such as immersion hose, bottle washer, etc. I use a quick-disconnect
fitting which can be purchased at any hardware/garden store.  These fittings
are used to quickly attach nozzles, sprinklers, etc. to a garden hose.
                                  This really saves a lot of 'screwing
around'  with different devices. :-)
Hope this helps some 'oldies' and 'newbies'!
Paul Rybak
   

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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 21:03:03 -0400
From: PERSAND at aol.com
Subject: Beer Engine comment

A quick story concerning my experince with the recent post on a home beer
engine.  It concerns using a food injector-type syringe to simulate a beer
engine.  I used a bulb baster with a 3/32 hose attached.  Sucking up the
liquid and forcing it back into the glass really does give a fine bead of
foam! I did find that some glasses overflowed and had to be quickly sipped to
prevent spillovers.
Today I had one of those glasses that foamed over.  I quickly dove to the
glass to suck up the foam and guess what.  I hit my mouth on the rim of the
glass a chipped the enamal off  my (fortunately a cap)  tooth!  Well, after a
half hour at the dentist, the tooth (cap)  was reasonably repaired.  But it
will be about a $400 total repair bill!
The 'home-style' beer engine is great-I just have to be a little more
carefull about worrying about spill-overs!
Again, a possible waste of BW but hope you find this humorous ( It IS now to
me!)
MAYBE  I  SHOULD  USE  PLASTIC  GLASSES!

Paul Rybak

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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 20:57:06 PDT
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: AFCHBC Results Request


If anyone who entered the America's Finest City Homebrew Competition
got a packet with a score sheet which did not belong to them, please
contact me.  The person who is missing a score sheet would appreciate
it very much.

thanks,
dion


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Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 23:33:33 EDT
From: PPWF22A at prodigy.com (FR BRADLEY BARBER)
Subject: carboy vs. TSP

Help!!  Recently I filled a dirty carboy with a solution of 
1 tsp. of TSP per gal. of cold water (according to my
supplier's instruction).  Then I got lazy and allowed it to 
sit for several days.  When I returned with my carboy brush 
to scrub -- the carboy refused to come totally clean.  There 
remained a residue of TSP on the interior that would not
rinse with either hot or cold water.  I have been able to
rub it off near the neck, but this stuff is stubborn.

I consulted a chemistry teacher who suggested that this
might be our hard water combined with the TSP.  He also
suggested that I try rinsing with a solution of "Lime-Away", 
which if I understand the stuff is a mild solution of
phosphoric and hydroxyacetic acid.  But before doing that, I 
wanted to consult the HBD wizards.

Any suggestions?  (other than not procrastinating next time 
- -- I've learned my lesson!)

Private E-mail is fine, but please reply to the address
below.

Brad Barber
bbarber at tenet.edu 



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Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 21:43:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Jay Lonner <8635660 at NESSIE.CC.WWU.EDU>
Subject: Retraction:  posting of competition results

Brewers,

A few days ago I submitted a brief note to the HBD in which I asked people to
refrain from posting competition results.  This request picked up where a
thread from last year left off, and touches on an issue that I mistakenly
thought had been settled.  Well, after exchanging email with some HBD regulars
who disagreed with my position, I would like to issue a retraction.  I
recognize that not every post will be of interest to every brewer, and while I
singled out competition results because of the space they can take up, there
are a lot of people who value that information.  And, after thinking about it
some more, I can see how posting that stuff to the HBD is less of a hassle than
dealing with tons of individual requests for results.  On the whole, I guess I
underestimated the number of people who are interested in entering their beers
in competitions.

This weekend I promise to chug a warm, skunked Corona with a lime stuffed down
its neck as penance.  Mmm, Lent.

Jay Lonner              8635660 at nessie.cc.wwu.edu              Bellingham, WA
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "Let be be the finale of seem/The only emperor is the emperor of ice cream."

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Date: Tue,  4 Apr 1995 15:01:00 GMT
From: doug.flagg at chksix.com (Doug Flagg)
Subject:  Yeast Culturing


To: HOMEBREW at HPFCMI.FC.HP.COM
Subject: Yeast Culturing

Keith comments on yeast culturing:

>I took a Wyeast 1056 popped it and
>let it swell, added a pint of bottled wort, let it ferment out, poured
>off the fermented beer and added another pint of wort.  I tasted the
>fermented beer and it tasted like a wine rather than beer.  Needless to
>say, I didn't brew that weekend.

That -is- the way to go about it (with minor variations depending on
who you talk to).  Personally, I like to start with 1/2 pint, go to a
pint (without draining off the original starter), and then graduate
to a quart.

I, also, taste the fermented beer and notice it invariably tastes like
wine/cider.  I put this down to the fact that the yeast/wort ratio is
 -much- greater than in a regular ferment and this influences the flavor.
The yeast, however, never effects my beer with this flavor.

Any experts on the subject??

Doug Flagg
doug.flagg at chksix.com



- ---
 * OLXWin 1.00 * Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic

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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 04:19:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Robert W. Mech" <rwmech at eagle.ais.net>
Subject: Yeast, Hand Towels, RIMS

First of id like to ask if somone would like to share some in-depth 
conversation outside the HBD about yeast.  Specificly, im curious as to 
improving my techniques in starters, and I also would like the ability to 
learn to analyze used yeast. i.e. examine how well the yeast did, how to 
improve per batch, how to make consistant batches of the same beer.  If 
somone out there is a yeast god, and has some time, id be up for some 
discussion.  Im no microbiologist, just want more information.

*********************************

Secondly, Kevin McEnhill asked about bar towels...  Why bother with 
OTHER peoples towels, why not buy some white hand towels, go to a t-shirt 
shop, and have them imprint "McEnhill Brewing Co" or something similar.  
Im sure your friends and family would find those much more impressive 
than "Miller" or "Bud" imprinted on them.  Most T-Shirt shops should have 
lettering and facilities available to print just what you need at a low 
price.

******************************************

Lastly, being the frugal brewer, im interested in constructing a 3 tier 
gravity fed system.  I know that a few places sell complete kits to do 
this, however im curious if building one would be cheaper.  Has anyone 
priced burners, etc?  Does it end up cheaper making your own setup or 
just purchasing one of the ones listed in Zymurgy, BT, etc.  I know I can 
get the kegs for the lousy $10 deposit (please, no legality flames) and 
constructing the rack itself shouldnt be too hard (have welder friends).  
Would it be cheaper to build this myself?

- -- 
Robert W. Mech | All Grain HomeBrewer.  President, Fermentors At Large
Elk Grove, IL. | Author Of "Frugal Brewers Guide To Brewing Aids"
rwmech at ais.net | For More Information:(Sorry, they now charge for my WWW page)


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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 12:50:29 +0200 (IST)
From: Lenny Garfinkel <lenny at zeus.datasrv.co.il>
Subject: coleman coolers

I would like to prepare a picnic cooler mash tun and would like to know 
if anyone has info on the heat resistance of Coleman coolers.  I know 
that Gott is preferred over Rubbermaid since they stand up to mash temps 
better.  What about Coleman?  I have not seen Gott coolers here in Israel.

Lenny

_________________________________________________________________
Dr. Leonard Garfinkel       | Internet:  lenny at zeus.datasrv.co.il
Bio-Technology General      | Office Phone: 972-8-381256     
Kiryat Weizmann             | Home Phone:   972-8-451505
Rehovot, Israel             | FAX:          972-8-409041
- -----------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: 06 Apr 95 08:14:44 EDT
From: Aric Rothman <74021.1103 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Is all HDPE plastic food grade?

I've purchased two HDPE plastic buckets from a hardware store.  I intend
to make a Zapap lauter tun.  Is all HDPE (white) food grade?  HDPE
appears in raised letters on the bottom of the bucket, with no mention
of whether or not the plastic is food grade.

TIA
Aric


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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 08:25:11 -0400
From: blue at cam.nist.gov (James L Blue)
Subject: Re: DWC Based Malt Extracts

They are carried by BrewBetter Supply in Cary, NC. It's fairly new,
still operated out of the home of the proprietor.
919-467-8934 (no 800-number) brewbetter at aol.com

They started out carrying only a few of the DWC grains, but early
this month they said their next shipment would have the full DWC
line. DWC Pale Ale malt was, as I remember, $38.50 for 50 pounds.

I have ordered from them twice and found them to be pleasant to
talk to, and more important, quick and reliable.

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Date: Thu, 06 Apr 95 08:54:38 EST
From: cbrenton at digprod.com (Brenton, Chris)
Subject: CO2 Output

     Does anyone know of a formula for calculating the CO2 output for a 
     given amount of sugar/water/yeast? Parts per million over time would 
     be ideal.

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Date: Thu, 06 Apr 1995 09:39:23 -0400
From: douglas.obrien at ccrs.emr.ca (Douglas O'Brien)
Subject: Valley Mill

arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:

> The next item I call your attention to is the current promotion of the 
> "Valley Mill" by a "friend" of the manufacturer.

I have made a couple of postings recently about the Valley Mill on HBD (in
response to requests for information) but I assume Jack is referring to
the post about 4 weeks ago by Weldon P. (a friend of the not-on-the-net 
manufacturer) in the rec.crafts.brewing newsgroup as this current "promotion".
 
> While on that subject, I note that the claim is made that this mill is all 
> stainless steel.  

Where exactly have you noted this claim?  I can't find it in any back issues
or posts.  The mill that I bought from a local homebrew supply store is not
all stainless steel.

Cheers,

Doug
(standard disclaimers apply)
- --
Douglas J. O'Brien                douglas.obrien at ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca
Canada Centre for Remote Sensing  tel: (613) 947-1287
588 Booth Street                  fax: (613) 947-1385
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
K1A 0Y7


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Date: Thu, 06 Apr 95 09:50:22 EST
From: "Harralson, Kirk" <kwh at news.roadnet.ups.com>
Subject: Moravian malts

Rick Myers writes:

>Coors uses Moravian III exclusively in most (if not all) of its products.
>All of Coors barley is contract-grown, whereas other mega-brewers purchase
>mostly from the open market.  Coors owns all rights to Moravian III
>barley, so if other brewers use it, it is rejected Coors barley.

The Williams catalog lists "Two-row pale Moravian German malt for mashing 
authentic German lagers" (pg 28, Spring 95 catalog).  The price is $1.45/lb or 
$65.50 for a 55lb sack.  However, I don't know what the particular differences 
are between Moravian and Moravian III malts.  This caught my eye since George 
Fix talked at length about Moravian malt in his Vienna, Marzen, Octoberfest 
book.  I asked my local homebrew shop if they could get it, and they said "No 
way", and were genuinely surprised that Williams carried it.  Does anybody have 
first-hand experience with this malt?  Usual disclaimers -- no affiliation with 
Williams.

Kirk Harralson
Bel Air, Maryland
     


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Date:    Thu, 06 Apr 95 10:26 EDT
From: "Lee A. Kirkpatrick" <WPSSLAK%WMMVS.BITNET at VTBIT.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject: anyone want to share some bitter orange peel?

   I'm getting ready to brew a Belgian wit beer and need some
bitter orange peel.  I was going to order some from the Frozen
Wort as recommended in someone's previous posting, but can't get
through to them.  Besides, I suspect I'd have to buy way more than
I need for one or two batches anyway.  (I think someone mentioned
4-ounce packages, and I think I only need about half an ounce.)

   So, is there anyone out there who has recently purchased
some of this stuff, or plans to in the near future, who'd be
willing to, say, split an order with me?  I'd of course pay
for my half (or whatever proportion you'd share) plus cost of
mailing it to me.  E-mail address below.  Thanks mucho.

- --Lee Kirkpatrick
  wpsslak at wmmvs (BITNET) or wpsslak at wmmvs.cc.wm.edu

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Date:          Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:30:56 EDT
From: "Paul Stokely" <PSTOKELY at ea.umd.edu>
Subject:       yap...

I didn't know we HBDers were being scored on frequency, so I will 
post here once in a while instead of always replying privately. ;)

Phillip Dickerson asks:

>1)  What really is the need to make a starter? Is it really worth the 
>trouble, with say a Wyeast product?

Yes! I have found that my lagers benefit from being pitched with 
yeast started 2 or 3 days earlier. Is the difference worth the 
hassle? That's for each to decide.

>2)  If I wanted to force them to ferment some more, could I rack to a
>secondary and pitch more yeast?  

Racking fermenting beer is often said to "rouse" the yeast. Adding 
more yeast will probably not give you a lower Final Gravity, unless 
you believe the 1st yeast somehow died or your second pitch is with a 
more attenuative yeast. I've done this with barley wines. 

>3) If I do encounter a stuck fermentation with a Wyeast, what would 
>happen if I re-pitch with dry yeast?  Will the flavor profile be 
>proportional to the amount of fermentation that each yeast was able 
>to accomplish?

More or less "yes". Yeast not only eat sugars and excrete ethanol, 
but they also reduce diacetyl, eat trub and other procucts, depending 
on the strain, when sugars run low. To me, the true value of liquid 
yeasts is the control over by-product formation. That control is 
dimished when using dry yeasts.

>4)  Lastly, I'm really considering trying a secondary.  Won't I run 
>the risk of oxidation when I rack into the secondary?  It seems 
>that you'd end up with a headspace full of O2???

You do run the risk of oxidizing, but that can be minimized by 
racking carefully (underlet the incoming wort and don't splash!) and 
by timing your rack (do it while fermentation is still strong and the 
evolving CO2 will push air out of your secondary.)


Frederick Stahl asks about water treatment options:

>1) Treat mash water only. 2) Treat sparge water. 3) Both 1) and 2) 
>above. This would result in more than 30 liters (8 gallons) of water 
>for a 23 liter (6 gallon) batch.

You should treat mash water to boost soluble minerals which your mash 
enzymes need in order to function. How much is a function of your 
water supply and the finish you wish your beer to have. Getting an 
analysis from the water treatment plant takes only a phone call. 
Checking well water is only a matter of  at  $20 from Agway, Sears, a 
cooperative extension or (some) universities. Hey, its fun!

Treat sparge water to lower the pH.

4) Add the water treatment in the boil.

I have only heard of this being done when a brewer wished to get a 
REALLY dry finish on a stout and though that adding sulfates to the 
mash would inhibit malt enzymes.
_____________________

I have an overly simple yardstick: brewers who seem to know less than 
me are "novice" and brewers who know more are "expert". I usually 
reply privately to HBD questions, so that the bulk of the posted 
discussions would be on "expert" matters. Maybe all respondents should 
post publicly now and again, if only to answer the question "who's 
out there?"

Paul S. in College Park, Maryland.      "My Latin is rusty"

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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 95 09:30:14 EST
From: blrett at most.magec.com (Ben Rettig)
Subject: Recirculation Pump

I am currently in the process of increasing my brewing capacity to the 16
gallon size. I am in need of an acceptable magnetically coupled pump to
move the wort around. Can anyone direct me where to find a pump. Low budget
project as usual.
Private E-mail responses are O.K. TIA!

Ben Rettig
blrett at pophost.magec.com





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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:38:36 -0400
From: MnMGuy at aol.com
Subject: CO

>Consider testing for CO for those who have a gas fired brewery or any
>gas 
>appliance for that matter.  Not even sure if would be safe brewing in
>an 
>open garage on a still day.  Better safe than sorry.  
>
> -KJB
>
>P.S.  Consumer reports recommends that folk avoid the little Carbon
>Monoxide 
>test cards which usually sell for less than $10.  They have limited
>accuracy, 
>and do not have an audible alarm if trouble rears its ugly head.


I would have to strongly agree agree with this post.  The consumer product
safety commission urges every home to have a carbon monoxide detector.  With
today's tight, energy-efficient homes, CO can build up considerably, even if
you are not a brewer.

First, a disclaimer.  I own stock in First Alert, the world's leading manufact
urer of CO detectors.  Do NOT buy a First Alert detector if you are a brewer.
 It is designed to detect slow buildup of CO over at least ten hours.  This
is fine for a home that may be developing a furnace leak but not for you guys
firing up that jet engine in the basement.  Also, those cards are worthless
too.

Get one of those digital readout ones like the original poster.  Do NOT
sample the air immediately next to your setup.  You already know CO is being
produced, the concern is if it is building up elsewhere.  CO is neither
heavier or lighter than air.  When it is hot, it rises, then sinks as it
cools.  Put your detector in a living or sleeping area, or perhaps between
your setup and such areas.

Symptoms of CO poisoning are similar to the flu.  If awake, you will know you
are sick.  When sleeping, you may not.  A better detector than the First
Alert for 24 hour protection of sleeping areas is made by PAMA of Israel.  It
is around eighty bucks but you do not have to buy $35 replacement cartridges
every year like the First Alert.  The PAMA unit samples the air every ten
minutes and does not wait for a buildup over several hours.  If you are in
the USA, private e-mail me and I will dig up the number for someone here that
imports that device.







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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 11:02:37 -0400
From: ar568 at freenet.carleton.ca (Aaron Shaw)
Subject: Curacao/Orange Peel Sources

>From: "Crake_Kurtis_LT" <Crake_Kurtis_LT at hq.navsea.navy.mil>
>Subject: Ingredients for Belgian White


>     My wife wants to brew an all-grain Belgian White, and she's having
>     some difficulty finding a source for bitter orange peel.  She has

>     Could those of you who have attempted this style provide any
>     information on sources for bitter (or Curacao) orange peel, or use of
>     alternates (I've heard use of tangerine peel mentioned)?  Any sources
>     local to Northern VA/MD/DC would be most helpful. 

     Have you tried any health food stores? The ones in my area carry
various types of dried orange peels (4+). Good Luck.

- --
      "Come my lad, and drink some beer!"
                                           Aaron Shaw
                                           Ottawa, Canada

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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 95 10:51:12 EDT
From: "Lee A. Menegoni" <lmenegoni at nectech.com>
Subject: Why decoction mash

For a very fine discussion of decoction mashing look at the Bock book by 
Darryl Richman.
The short answer to "is there any advantage to decoting a fully modified 
grain" is Yes.
 
One does a decostion for 3 reasons:
1) Add raise the temp of the main mash by adding heat from the decocted 
submash.
2) Improve extraction by making more starch available to the enymes.
and importantly for flavor and aroma characteristics
3) Production of melanodins

There are other benefits that are side effects of the boiling the grains, 
protein reduction and improved lautering.

Why do multiple decotions?  More melanodin production at the expense of 
time.

I find that doing a single decotion is the easiest way for me to raise my 
mash from 140F to 158F when doing a 40-60-70 mash.  For the sake of time 
saving I never do more than 2 decoctions.
I use hot water to raise the mash to mashout temp.

For a 40 - 60 -70
I pull the decoction after the mash stabilizes at 140F,  slowly raise ithe 
decoction to 158 and hold for 30 minutes then boil for 15 minutes and mix 
back with main mash until converted.  This save time.  For a light lager I 
would reduce the boil time.  For a Chech pils I do a double decotion. 

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1701, 04/08/95