FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Posting Competition Results (Bryan Dawe)
  Spruce Beer? (Bill Arduser)
  The Secrets of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale ("Jim Fitzgerald")
  Kitchenaid Powered Grain Mill (dsanderson)
  Torque ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  Ireks Observation (John McCauley)
  Bungs (CA2160)
  1995 Bluebonnet Brew-off Results (Chris Simon)
  Beer Stuff ("Harrington, Stephen J")
  Bananas! (MnMGuy)
  Bar Hand Towels (Robin Hanson)
  kegging/malt recipes ("Wallinger, W. A.")
  Yeast Questions/ (Rich Larsen)
  Atlas Pasta Mill Modifications (Curt Woodson)
  starters/yeast/secondaries/Laaglander/DWC Extract/old extract/adding salts/decoction (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Re: Schmidling, Commercialism & getting torqued-up (in ft-lbs or lb-ft)? (harry)
  CO2 Tank Quick Disconnect? ("Wuerstl, Matthew A.")
  bad beer, use of (DONBREW)
  weihenstephan liquid yeast and sulphory smells ("mike spinelli")
  broadside from you know who (Jay Hersh)
  Cleveland Brew Spots? (Greg O'Brien)
  posting competition results (Dan Pack)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 6 Apr 95 9:26:46 MDT
From: Bryan Dawe <bryand at gr.hp.com>
Subject: Posting Competition Results


Mr. Hollenbeck wrote with respect to posting competition results in HBD:
> While your suggestion of a one-liner is feasible, I think there are
> people who actually read the posted results, who would not Email off
> for them.  I think it is worth it.

At risk of "beating a dead horse," I just thought I might add a little
data to support the above assertion.  *I* am one of those people who
read competition results who would not otherwise email to obtain a copy.
I personally would be disappointed if those results were not posted to HBD.

> Besides, there is a lot more useless stuff posted than the total
> bandwidth of competition results.

Without doubt.  I skip those articles with which I am not interested.
I do not mind a bit when those articles are beer related.

Bryan P. Dawe
bryand at hpgriy.gr.hp.com
R&D Engineer, Hewlett-Packard Company


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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 11:51:59 -0400
From: Bill Arduser <bill at dvcorp.com>
Subject: Spruce Beer?

Hi Folks,
   Time to brew a spruce beer. Do I want blue or white spruce? How
much? For that matter, should I use the new growth, as I've seen 
recommended in several books? Someone has recommended that I scrape 
spruce gum off the sides of trees and use that. He said that beer made
that way would take less time to mature. Please don't tell me to
use extract, that's not what I had in mind.
   I bottled my first all-grain last night (A somewhat nondescript 
Belgain, light in color, sg 1.076). I think it will be really good after 
some aging. I want to thank all of you for the many hints on all grain 
brewing. I probably wouldn't have had the nerve to try it otherwise.

Bill Arduser
 
    DataViews Corporation,  47 Pleasant St,  Northampton,  MA. 01060 
Internet:bill at dvcorp.com   voice:(413)586-8371, x284   fax:(413)586-3805 

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Date:          Thu, 6 Apr 1995 08:55:37 +0000
From: "Jim Fitzgerald" <jimfitz at netcom.com>
Subject:       The Secrets of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale 

I've spent a couple of years trying to perfect my Sierra Nevada Pale
Ale home brew recipe and through the course of this time have come up
with a lot of good questions about the "secrets" of this Chico
brewery and have read about and heard a lot of conflicting stories
about how this beer is actually created there at  SN. The good thing
here is that there is a happy ending to this story. I can make Pale
Ale now that's pretty close to SNPA...but it did take a lot of
experimenting and disappointing batches to make this beer come close
to what I would call the best pale ale brewed in the US, and maybe
the world. Now I realize that the methods that I use at home in my
humble little 15 gallon brew pot don't necessarily have to be same
as the SN brewery's methods, but at this point it would be
interesting to get a couple of facts settled once and for all. So
here are the burning questions about the Secerts of SNPA, with of
course my $0.02 worth attached;

Grain and mash: 

SN has published the malts that they use for all of their beers, for
SNPA they list 2-row barley, Carmel and Dextrin malts. In a 5.5
gallon batch with 95% mash efficiency I use the following;

7.5 lbs. 2-row lager malt
1/2 lb Crystal Malt (60L)
1/2 lb Caripils 

I do a simple infusion mash with the following steps;

3 gallons mash water
Protein Rest 122F for 30 minutes 
Conversion Rest 156F for 2 hours (I'm sure this is plenty of time...)
Mash out  at  168F
Sparge with 7-8 gallons of pH 5.7  at  168F

Now I'm not sure what SN really does in their mash. The question
here is do they use a decoction mash for this beer? I have done a
maibock (SNPB style, of course) with a docoction mash which I feel is
needed for all bock style beers, but that's a different story that
I'll use in another post. I guess it really doesn't matter too much
because this mash seems to work well, but I would like to hear the
facts...and anyone else's ideas on improving this mash.

The starting gravity of this mash is around 1.054, I think this puts
in the ball park of were we need to be. SN also publishes this
information as 13 Plato which I believe translates into around
1.052. Now I also use Fred Echhardt's book "The Essentials of Beer
Style" when trying to brew beer styles that I like and he lists the 
SG at 13.9 Plato or 1.057...so I think we are close here.

Hops:

OK, here's where it starts to get interesting. SN has also published
this information by stating; Bittering Hops: Perle, Finishing Hops:
Cascade (period)...They also state that they use whole hops (which I
always use anyway) and that a large portion is added late in the boil
so the volatile oils are retained...the key words here are in the
boil...no mention of a hopback, and from Gary Bell's post about a
recent trip to the brewery, they don't ever talk about one there
either...the only place that I have ever heard about it is in
magazines and from people that, as far as I know are only assuming
they use one because of the nice cascade aroma of SNPA (I was one of
these people, at first). So, needless to say this is where most of
the experimentation comes in. Again, I used Eckhardt's book for some
key pieces of information...thanks Fred (and no, he's not
related...). The two other pieces of information that I used here
are the color, which actually help a little in selecting the grain
bill and the bitterness which is listed as 32 IBU. This is something
that I have not seen SN publish. He also talks about hop character in
this book which helped figure out the bitterness and how to
calculate late drops of hops into the boil. Anyway, this is my
current hop drop into the a 90 minute boil;

1 oz Perle (60 minutes) (5.5%AAU)
1/2 oz Perle (30 Minutes) (5.5% AAU)
1/2 oz Cascade (15 minutes) (5.7% AAU)
1/2 oz Cascade (Finishing) (5.7%AAU)

I know, the Perle is a little bit weak this year, but this calculates 
out to around 32 IBU. I still play around with these drops, but this 
seems to work OK.

Now the interesting part. I visited Los Gatos Brewing Company a few
month back and had lunch there at a very quite time. I had a chance
to try the Pale Ale that was on tap there and it was very close to
SNPA, not quite...but the best micro brewery example of it that I
have tasted. (To plug the LGBC which they well deserve, all of their
beers, which are mostly lagers are wonderful...Good job Jeff!)
Anyway I did get a chance to chat with Jeff Alexander there and he
gave me the information that I needed to perfect my pale ale...he
dry hoped in the secondary with cascade. This is something that the
brewery does not talk about if they do it, but it made all of the
difference in the world for my batches. I really never thought of
doing this because they do list the beers that they dry hop which
are Big Foot and Celebration. So the big question here is what 
exactly do they do with hops in a SNPA at the brewery? 

Yeast:

I have always used Wyeast 1058 (American Ale) for my SNPA style pale
ale...but, the question is, can I use the culture that I have from
the bottle? SN does use the same yeast over and over by repitching
what they have, but I'm not quite sure if it's really the same as
the Chico American Ale yeast. I've gone through a lot of the yeast
FAQ's and got really tired seeing this one go back and forth in one
of the news groups (which it may just do here too) and the answer to
this simple question has never really been settled. I do have this
culture from the bottle but I have never used it because from what I
have read in some places it is a different yeast that they use to
bottle condition, which I don't really think I believe, but I'm not
willing to blow a batch of good beer either. 

OK, I've used up enough bandwidth for one post. I hope this sparks up 
some good interest, and I also hope that some of these mysteries can 
be solved...and discussed...

Cheers!
Jim
- -------------------------
Jim Fitzgerald
Los Gatos, CA
jimfitz at netcom.com

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Date: Thu, 06 Apr 95 12:21:02 EST
From: dsanderson at msgate.cv.com
Subject: Kitchenaid Powered Grain Mill


Can anyone provide a review of the Kitchenaid Grinding Mill for homebrew 
purposes?  It's a plate variety that is highly adjustable and appears to 
be of very high quality.

A dealer here in Massachusetts has them for $118.


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Date: Thu, 06 Apr 95 11:25:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: Torque


RE: HBD 1699 Torque (Regrading foot-pounds vs pound feet)

>> I think that x foot-pounds = 1/x pound-feet.  Either that or x(fp) = 
x(pf)...

>It's not that simple...one is not the inverse of the other

It's even simpler, his "Either that or..." comment is the correct one. 
 Force times displacement: ft-lb and lb-ft are exactly identical, no? I 
really think this is the associative property of multiplication applied to 
dimensional analysis: force*distance = distance*force.  Meter*Newtons or 
Newton*meters, potatoes per firkin, etc...

Kirk R Fleming / Colorado Springs / flemingk at usa.net

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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 13:26:49 -0400
From: ctgnet at cais.cais.com (John McCauley)
Subject: Ireks Observation

I just recently noticed that cans of Ireks LME appear to be lined with a 
plastic-like film so that the product doesn't contact the metal. Is this 
unique to Ireks? I don't seem to recall the same thing with Alexander's or M&F.
| John McCauley      |  Strange women, lying in ponds and
| ctgnet at cais.com    |  distributing swords, is no basis
|                    |  for a system of government.


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Date:         Thu, 6 Apr 95  12:28:11 CST
From: CA2160 at siucvmb.siu.edu
Subject:      Bungs

SENT BY:  Jonas Hartzler   (CA2160)
          Lab Tech III Ph: 453-6205
          Y'all write back now, ya hear?
I have searched my local homebrew supply stores and a couple mail order
places but can't seem to find a good place to get bungs for my kegging
system.  I should be starting up kegging in a couple weeks and would
appreciate info on where the best places to look/find bungs are.  Private
email please.

Jonas

***   Information Technology --- Lab Technician III       ***
***   CA2160  at  SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU - Rehn Hall  Room 17       ***
***   Southern Illinois University - Carbondale, IL       ***

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Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 14:56:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chris Simon <SIMON_C at Eisner.DECUS.Org>
Subject: 1995 Bluebonnet Brew-off Results

9th Annual Bluebonnet Brew-off
March 31 - April 1, 1995

Final Results:

1. Barleywine
	1st - Russ Bee, NTHBA
	2nd - Wayne Rodrigue, CCH
	3rd - Jay Johnsrud, DFBS
	HM  - Just Dave & New Phil, CC
2. Belgian & French Ale
	1st - David Hensley, NTHBA
	2nd - Rob Stenson, CC
	3rd - Kevin Hardee, NTHBA
	HM  - Dan Gill, CC
3. Belgian-Style Lambic
	1st - Robert Carter, DFBS
	2nd - Steve Roberts, FR
	3rd - Charlie Gottenkieny, NTHBA
4. Brown Ale
	1st - Ronald Raike, CFHB
	2nd - Kevin Hardee, NTHBA
	3rd - Russ Bee, NTHBA
	HM  - David Routledge, DFBS
5. English-Style Pale Ale
	1st - Jeff Worth, CC
	2nd - Jack Sparks, independent from Dallas, TX
	3rd - Mark Schoppe, independent from Leander, TX
	HM  - William Dubas, CC
6. American-Style Ale
	1st - Kevin Hardee, NTHBA
	2nd - David Pappas & Carl "Moose" Minion, CFHB
	3rd - Russ Bee, NTHBA
	HM  - Paul Amellin, CFHB
	HM  - Charlie Feder, NTHBA
7. English Bitter
	1st - Amy Lachmanek, independent from Sierra Vista, AZ
	2nd - Bob Haupert & Ernie Stephens, NTHBA
	3rd - David Lloyd, DFBS
	HM  - Robert Pope, CC
	HM  - Paul Egan, NTHBA
8. Scottish Ale
	1st - Dan Gill, CC
	2nd - Patrick Rohrbacher, BCB
	3rd - Robert Pope, CC
9. Porter
	1st - Steve Vallancourt, CFHB
	2nd - Alan Collins, NTHBA
	3rd - Just Dave & New Phil, CC
	HM  - Stephen Murphrey, DFBS
	HM  - Tyler Weaver, NTHBA
10. English & Scottish Strong Ale
	1st - Rob Stenson, CC
	2nd - Steve Vallancourt, CFHB
	3rd - Stephen Murphrey, DFBS
11. Stout
	1st - Steve Vallancourt, CFHB
	2nd - Mark Shelton, NTHBA
	3rd - Jeff Raymond & David Yglesias, CC
	HM  - Just Dave & New Phil, CC
12. Bock
	1st - David Lloyd, DFBS
	2nd - Bob Haupert & Ernie Stephens, NTHBA
	3rd - Preston Merrick, CFHB
13. Bavarian Dark
	1st - Bob Haupert & Ernie Stephens, NTHBA
	2nd - Darrell Simon, NTHBA
	3rd - Roger Jones, DFBS
14. German Light Lager
	1st - Carl Saxer, CFHB
	2nd - Michael Partlow, CC
	3rd - Preston Merrick, CFHB
15. Classic Pilsener
	1st - Kerry Hauptli, DFBS
	2nd - Darrell Simon, NTHBA
	3rd - John Morrison, DFBS
	HM  - Bob Haupert & Ernie Stephens, NTHBA
16. American Lager
	1st - Darrell Simon, NTHBA
	2nd - John Morrison, DFBS
	3rd - Tony Prado, CC
17. Vienna/Oktoberfest/Marzen
	1st - Steven Zabarnick, independent from Dayton, OH
	2nd - Kevin Hardee, NTHBA
	3rd - Tom Henderson, NTHBA
	HM  - Roger Jones, DFBS
18. German-Style Ale
	1st - Todd Kellenbenz, FR
	2nd - Michael Lentz, CSM
	3rd - Peter Bellecy, BCB
19. Fruit Beer
	1st - Ron Wilkinson, CFHB
	2nd - Russ Bee, NTHBA
	3rd - Chris Simon, NTHBA
	HM  - Carl Saxer, CFHB
20. Herb Beer
	1st - David Shore, Rick Smith & Jeanie Menti, CC
	2nd - Gary Michel, CFHB
	3rd - Robert Pope, CC
	HM  - Ken Haycook, NTHBA
21. Specialty Beer
	1st - Steve Vallancourt, CFHB
	2nd - Randy Robertson, DFBS
	3rd - Michael Lentz, CSM
	HM  - Rick Calley, NTHBA
22. Smoked Beer
	1st - Carlos Kelley, CC
	2nd - Michael Lentz, CSM
	3rd - Dan Gill, CC
23. California Common
	1st - Rick Calley, NTHBA
	2nd - Mark Shelton, NTHBA
	3rd - John Manczuk, CC
	HM  - Carlos Kelley, CC
24. Wheat Beer
	1st - Mitchel Whitington, independent from Garland, TX
	2nd - Tony Cox, independent from Flower Mound, TX
	3rd - Ernie Stephens & Eric Maki, NTHBA
25. Traditional Mead
	1st - Al Schneider, NTHBA
	2nd - John Butler, NTHBA
	3rd - David Pappas, CFHB
	HM  - Leroy Gibbins, FR
26. Fruit Mead
	1st - Leroy Gibbins, FR
	2nd - New Phil & Just Dave, CC
	3rd - Bruce Stevens, MALT
27. Herb Mead
	1st - Jim Woll, NTHBA
	2nd - David Lupin, FR
	3rd - Darrell Simon, NTHBA
28. Cider
	1st - Richard Denton, DFBS
	2nd - Lucy Hassler, CC
	3rd - Michael Wiley, BAM

Best of Show Honorable Mentions
	Leroy Gibbins, Foam Rangers, for Fruit Mead
	Todd Kellenbenz, Foam Rangers, for German-Style Ale

Best Extract
	Jeff Worth, Cowtown Cappers, for English-Style Pale Ale

Best All-Grain
	Kevin Hardee, North Texas Homebrewers Assoc., for American-Style Ale

Best of Show
	Kevin Hardee, NTHBA, for American-Style Ale

Glen Mueller-Frank Browne Club Quality Award
(given to one of the organizing clubs - Cowtown Cappers, Denton Fermented
Brewers Society, Arlington Homebrewers, and North Texas Homebrewers Assoc. -
with the highest average top ten first round scores)
North Texas Homebrewers Association

Each 1st Place scores 3 points
Each 2nd Place scores 2 points
Each 3rd Place scores 1 point
Best of Show scores 2 points

Bluebonnet Brewer of the Year
(given to the individual brewer who scores the most points in this competition)
Steve Vallancourt, Central Florida Homebrewers

Bluebonnet Trophy
(given to the club scoring the most points in this competition)
North Texas Homebrewers Association

Gulf Coast Homebrewer of the Year Qualifying points
(The Gulf Coast Homebrewer of the Year is the brewer who scores the most points
in four competitions during the year - the Bluebonnet Brew-off in Dallas in
March, the Crescent City Competition in New Orleans in April, the Sunshine
Challenge in Orlando in May, and the Dixie Cup in Houston in October.)
11 points - Steve Vallancourt, CFHB
10 points - Kevin Hardee, NTHBA
8 points  - Darrell Simon, NTHBA
7 points  - Russ Bee, NTHBA
7 points  - Bob Haupert & Ernie Stephens, NTHBA
5 points  - Michael Lentz, CSM
5 points  - Rob Stenson, CC
4 points  - David Lloyd, DFBS
4 points  - Mark Shelton, NTHBA
4 points  - Dan Gill, CC

Key to club abbreviations:
BAM   - Bay Area Mashtronauts, Pasadena, TX
BCB   - Bluff City Brewers & Connoisseurs, Memphis, TN
CC    - Cowtown Cappers, Fort Worth, TX
CCH   - Crescent City Homebrewers, New Orleans, LA
CFHB  - Central Florida Homebrewers, Orlando, FL
CSM   - College Station Malthoppers, College Station, TX
DFBS  - Denton Fermented Brewers Society, Denton, TX
FR    - Foam Rangers, Houston, TX
MALT  - Maine Ale and Lager Tasters
NTHBA - North Texas Homebrewers Association, Dallas, TX

Scoresheets will be mailed the week of April 10.  For club members, all sheets
will be sent together to club president or other representative.  For
independents, sheets will be sent directly to you.  Trophies and ribbons will
be sent separately.

Questions may be addressed to:

simon_c at eisner.decus.org - Chris Simon - 1st lady of the North Texas
Homebrewers Association and Chief of Stewards at 1995 Bluebonnet Brew-off

or

d_simon at dfwlug.decus.org - Darrell Simon - President of the North Texas
Homebrewers Association and Chief of Judges at 1995 Bluebonnet Brew-off

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Date: 6 Apr 1995 11:27:31 -0800
From: "Harrington, Stephen J" <sharrington at msmail4.hac.com>
Subject:  Beer Stuff

Hello from the land of OJ ---

Just a few tidbits I came up with while I was bottling last night --->

********
Is Sierra Nevada Bigfoot ('95) Barleywine a good example of this style?  I
bought a sixer and was stunned at the taste of alcohol.  I felt like I was
doing a 'shot' of beer.
********
In a similar thought, is Red Hook ESB a good example?  I really liked it alot.
 Any recipes out there?  Now that I have gone all-grain, I relish the thought
that I can make any style of beer.
********
As I was bottling last night, I remembered someone poo-pooing the idea that
leaving the caps on the bottles uncrimped for a while in order to put a layer
of CO2 in the headspace could not possibly work because the yeast cannot
ferment the priming sugar that fast.  I think that the layer of CO2 comes from
the CO2 coming out of solution as it warms (especially true for lagers).  Now
I do leave the caps on top uncrimped, but not for this reason, but simply
because I fill all the bottles and then crimp them all.  Well enough on this. 
I am probably the only person left who uses bottles instead of kegs anyway.
********
I made my first wheat beer last week and expected the worst during the sparge.
 It was the easiest sparge I ever had and I got a great extraction.  Was I
just lucky?
********

Cheers,

Stephen Harrington
Manhattan Beach, CA



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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 15:00:48 -0400
From: MnMGuy at aol.com
Subject: Bananas!

I'm not sure on the name or spelling, but I drank last night a Dunkelweiss
Weizenbier Dunkel or something like that.  It wasn't my first beer, which was
an Anchor Liberty.  It wasn't my second, that went to an Anchor Porter.  It
technically wasn't my third, which was a few sips of the Honey Wheat I was
mini kegging.  So maybe my judgement was a little off.

Anyway, halfway through I noticed a quite prominent banana taste that I
really enjoyed.  I had read a few postings relating to "banana notes" of
cetain yeasts but not paid much attention.

Is this desirable.  Regardless, I enjoyed it and wondered if any of you had
any suggestions about trying to duplicate.  TIA.

Kevin

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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 13:02:04 -0600
From: rhanson at nmsu.edu (Robin Hanson)
Subject: Bar Hand Towels

Kevin McEnhill asked about obtaining hand towels:

You can usually get British bar towels from British (and sometimes Irish) 
stores. If you have one in the area give it a try.

The other alternative is to try mail-order from a British (yet again 
sometimes Irish) store/supplier. From time to time I get a copy of 
"Brittania" magazine. They are available at good news agents in the US and 
Canada. The magazine is usually full of all sorts of advertisments for 
British stuff, including Pub supplies.

You will problably only be able to get the big name brewers e.g Watneys, 
Worthingtons, Courage etc. They can also be pretty expensive, my favourite 
method of aquisition, however, is to swipe them from a pub when I am back in 
England.

Robin Hanson

Rhanson at nmsu.edu


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Date: 06 Apr 1995 12:06:12 PDT
From: "Wallinger, W. A." <WAWA at chevron.com>
Subject: kegging/malt recipes


From: Wallinger, W. A. (Wade)
To:  OPEN ADDRESSING SERVI-OPENADDR
Subject:  kegging/malt recipes
Date: 1995-04-06 09:56
Priority:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


in hbd1697 jim asks about kegging questions (i'm behind a few days, so bear
with me if someone else has already answered - another reason why there may
be few posters: in my case i struggle to keep current and fear that my
contribution may be too late). the 'kegging chart' you are looking for was
developed by burch and is reprinted in papazian's first book (without
acknowledgement) and in miller's 'brewing the world's great beers' (with
acknowledgement). in general, you need to keep the recommended pressure for
the carbonation you desire, whether that is from the co2 bottle or from
priming sugar. when you prime the keg probably reached 15+ psi, but the
carbonation was 'lost' when the keg was 'let down' to less than 10psi. i
keep my kegs at 12 to 15psi at 40 deg f (the temperature component is
important). hope this helps.
 ---
jay asks for extract recipes, and offers a compilation. i plan to send him a
few of mine (i too am almost too busy to mess with all-grain - although i
want to try my hand at it for the experience), and hope others do as well -
let's encourage this exchange.


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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 14:34:42 -0500
From: rlarsen at squeaky.free.org (Rich Larsen)
Subject: Yeast Questions/


In HBD1699 DICKERSONP at aol.com asks a few questions about yeast care:

>1)  What really is the need to make a starter?  My fermentations always take
>off within 12 hours and usually finish at or near the appropriate final
>gravity.  Is it really worth the trouble, with say a Wyeast product?

It sounds like your fermentations are proceding normally, however, I gather
from your final statement above that you are using dry yeast.  Starters are 
not necessary with dry yeast, but it is recommended that you rehydrate it in 
some sterile water a minimum of 15 minutes before pitching.  Get the yeast 
woke up before giving them a big breakfast.  Yeast will tend to mutate and 
or burst if pitched dry.

As far as Wyeast goes, some people have had good results without making a 
starter.  You will insure, however, a good start, shorter lag time, and 
decreased risk of infection if you get the yeast going and growing well in 
advance of pitching.  I always recommend a starter for liquid cultures, 
simply because they usually only contain about one tenth the active yeast 
that is in a dry pack.  See the yeast FAQ for starter instructions.

>
>2)  If I wanted to force them to ferment some more, could I rack to a
>secondary and pitch more yeast?  Right now, I'm doing an IPA that started at
>1.057 and I'm worried that it might finish way too high.

Chances are the above wort may not have been aerated enough, and the yeast 
simply pooped out.  Racking to secondary may and some O2 and get the yeast 
going again.  Adding more more dry yeast may help as dry yeast is dehydrated 
when it was active.  I personally haven't had too much luck with restarting 
a stuck ferment.  Again, wort aeration very important for healty yeast.  Try 
using the "venturi" tube.  A short piece of racking tube (about 2 inches) 
with two holes drilled at one end.  Attach to the hose with the holes 
nearest the hose, and siphon into the fermenter.  The holes will draw air 
into the wort as it passes through the tube. 

>
>3) If I do encounter a stuck fermentation with a Wyeast, what would happen if
>I re-pitch with dry yeast?  Will the flavor profile be proportional to the
>amount of fermentation that each yeast was able to accomplish?

I suspect the most character you will get will be from the first yeast, 
unless it didn't ferment much at all.  Also it depends on how strong of a 
characteristic flavor the second yeast has.  For instance, if you pitch with 
a culture of Wyeast American Ale (a notorious clean fermenter) and follow up 
with a culture of Chimay yeast... well you get the picture.

>4)  Lastly, I'm really considering trying a secondary.  Won't I run the risk
>of oxidation when I rack into the secondary?  It seems that you'd end up
>with a headspace full of O2???

If you rack carefully without major splashing or "fanning" the beer down the 
side of the carboy you should be allright.  Some beer will be exposed to the 
air initially, but may create a blanket of CO2 just above the surface.  If 
the beer flows smoothly into the secondary without creating a lot of bubbles 
it will be cool.  You can also dip the end of the siphon hose into the beer 
in the secondary, thus exposing the rest of the beer to the air.

Of course for the advanced brewers that have access to CO2 tanks, you can 
purge the air from the secondary with pure CO2 and then rack.

- -----------------

Speaking of yeast, perse'

I thought I had the most incredible, attenutive, friendly yeast in the 
world. What's more, I had cultured it myself from a pack of Wyeast Scotch.  
This yeast, I thought, took a 1.085 beer down to 1.010 and a 1.042 down to 
0.990!
AND it still tasted fine.  I was very proud.

The issue turned out to be the hydrometer.  The yeast was behaving normally, 
but somewhere along the line, my hydrometer slipped.  God only knows what 
the starting gravities of these beers were!

So, I ask.  Where can I get a REAL hydometer.  One that is graduated on the 
glass, not a little paper slip inside?

- -------

BTW my Liberty hop plant started a shoot 4 days ago in the South side of 
Chicago.   ahhhh...  Spring...

- ------
  
=> Rich <rlarsen at squeaky.free.org>
________________________________________________________________________
Rich Larsen, Midlothian, IL.  Also on HomeBrew University (708) 705-7263
   Variety is the spice of life.
________________________________________________________________________


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Date:  6 Apr 95 16:11:56 EDT
From: Curt Woodson <cdwood at lexmark.com>
Subject: Atlas Pasta Mill Modifications

Well it has been a week since I asked for directions on how to modify an Atlas 
pasta mill in to a grain mill or pointers on where to find the information in 
the archives. The responces have just been pouring in...NOT!!!  Nothing !! 
Zippo!! NOTA!!  I have had 3 people respond that they would like a copy of the 
info I receive. Sorry guys I will forward you all the info IF  and when I get 
some or I will  let you know what I did and how it worked out. 

 So how about it HBD'ers, where's the beef...er...information on how to do 
this? Or what about these questions:
1) What is the groove width on a MaltMill(tm)? 

2) What is the space width between grooves on a MaltMill?

3) Will knurling the rollers pull the grain thru?

4) Anyone got a extra handle for an Atlas mill, that they are willing to part 
with?

34 batches and more to brew.
Curt Woodson in sunny Kentucky
cdwood at lexmark.com

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Date: 6 Apr 95 15:40:00 -0500
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: starters/yeast/secondaries/Laaglander/DWC Extract/old extract/adding salts/decoction

Phillip writes:
>1)  What really is the need to make a starter?  My fermentations always take
>off within 12 hours and usually finish at or near the appropriate final
>gravity.  Is it really worth the trouble, with say a Wyeast product?

I find it hard to believe that you are getting active fermentation in 12 hours
with Wyeast packages if you are not using a starter.  You can have lag times
shorter than 12 hours with dry yeast, but not with Wyeast or any of the other
liquid yeasts.  I assume then that you are asking: "Is using Wyeast and
starters worth the trouble over dry yeast?"  In my opinion, yes.  There are
now some very good dry yeasts available (Coopers, Nottingham, Windsor and
maybe a few more, IMO) so Wyeast and the other liquid yeasts are not
*required* to make good beer.  However, the flavour of your beer is very much
affected by the yeast that you use.  Not better, necessarily, just different.
Just as an experiment, split a single 5-gallon wort between two or three
fermentors and pitch different yeasts.  You'll be amazed.

>2)  If I wanted to force them to ferment some more, could I rack to a
>secondary and pitch more yeast?  Right now, I'm doing an IPA that started at
>1.057 and I'm worried that it might finish way too high.

If the issue is alcohol tolerance, which should not be an issue for a 1057
wort if you aerated well, then yes, pitching more fresh, healthy yeast will
help bring down the FG.  On the other hand, if there are a lot of unfermentable
sugars in your wort, then only pitching a more attenuative yeast will lower
the FG.  Attenuation, incidentally, is what percentage of the sugars a
particular yeast strain will consume: a more attenuative yeast will eat both
small and bigger sugars -- a less attenuative yeast will only eat the smaller
ones.

>3) If I do encounter a stuck fermentation with a Wyeast, what would happen if
>I re-pitch with dry yeast?  Will the flavor profile be proportional to the
>amount of fermentation that each yeast was able to accomplish?

That's about right.

>4)  Lastly, I'm really considering trying a secondary.  Won't I run the risk
>of oxidation when I rack into the secondary?  It seems that you'd end up with
>a headspace full of O2???

I'm of the opinion that a secondary is not necessary (but will reduce the
amount of yeast you have in the bottles) for an ale, but you need not worry
about O2 in your headspace because the agitation of siphoning will release
CO2 from the beer and that will purge the O2 out of the headspace.

***
Eric writes:
>Laaglander (Dutch) dry malt extract has been widely reported
>to have a high content of unfermentables, but I would not
>expect it to be as low as 48% fermentable.

I've read (here) that Laaglander DME was found to be 55% fermentable,
so the difference between that and the 48% could be attributed to poor
aeration or weak yeast.

***
Rob writes:
>The owner of the local brewshop said there is a small outfit in
>South Carolina?? who is making a full line of malt extracts made
>exclusively from DeWolf-Cosyns malt.  What I thought was interesting 
>was this company is apparently bypassing wholesalers and doing 
>direct sales.  Does anyone have information on this development?

This sounds a lot like Superbrau, made by Specialty Products
International (not the DWC grain, but rather the direct sales to
retailers and the location).  If so, I would be very suspicious.
SPI makes two kinds of extract: mixes and unhopped extract.  They
CLAIM that the unhopped is 100% barley malt.  However, the kits
(get this) contain "fresh hop pellets," and corn syrup.  Yes, you
heard right... hop pellets RIGHT IN THE SYRUP.  In the booklet that
you get with the Superbrau extracts, (among other completely wacked-
out ideas) they claim that you can vary the style of beer you make
by changing the boil time (ha!):

 "For a European-style beer, simply increase the boiling time for the
 Ingredient Mix.  For a Heineken or Becks style beer, give the mix a
 high boil for 10 minutes... A fifteen minute boil produces a strong
 British ale, and a 20 to 40 minute boil with the Dark Mix makes a
 moderate or strong stout.  for a richer stout, leave out a gallon of
 the cold water..."

They may be using DWC grain for the extracts, but their lack of brewing
knowledge really makes me suspicious of anything they sell.  For a more
detailed review of the book that I'm referring to, check out the thread
I created for "beadle" in http://guraldi.itn.med.umich.edu/Threads/
or, if you cannot access the Web, get copies of HBD 1172, 1175 and 1177
and look for "Specialty Products."  (Incidentally, looking through my
posts, I noticed a rather important typo: "Chlorine Ions" should be
"Chloride Ions.")

***
David writes:
>over time, but I've heard people bragging more than once that they are using
>a can that's been in the garage since 1985 or so.  What gives?

Yes, you can make something that tastes like beer, especially if it is
robust and dark, but you probably won't win any ribbons with it.

***
Fredrik writes:
>resemble the traditional water for some typical style. The problem is
>_when_ to treat the water and _how_much_ water to treat.

If you are doing an allgrain batch, I would measure the mash pH and then
add the salts till your pH is around 5.3.  Note that if you are planning
to add Calcium Carbonate and your pH is 5.7, wait till the boil to add
the CaCO3.  Same is true if you are adding Gypsum and your mash is already
down to 5.0.  Once the mash is around 5.3, save the rest of the salts you
had measured out till the boil.

If you are doing extract, then I would just add the salts in the boil.

***
Joe writes:
>        When one buys malt from your friendly neighborhood homebrew store
>I presume you are getting fully modified grain.  Is there any advantage
>to doing a multiple decoction mash on such malt?  Does it release other
>compounds from the grain?

Rumour has it that decoction mashed beers have a maltier flavour.  I have
not done side-by-side comparisons, but the BOS Scottish Strong Ale at the
BOSS competition was a double decoction mashed beer.  Not traditional, but
a damn good beer.

Al.

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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 15:56:05 -0400
From: hbush at pppl.gov (harry)
Subject: Re: Schmidling, Commercialism & getting torqued-up (in ft-lbs or lb-ft)?

        Sorry, a couple of topics I can't stay out of (now Harry, you know
better).

      1)  The first regards Jack Schmidling and his products. He has been
accused of using the HBD for advertisement of his products. I plan to
purchase some equipment in the near future, including a grain mill, so I
have been noting grain milling discussions on the HBD, some of which have
come from Jack himself. Is that SO bad? I think it's great to be able to
get info directly from the developer of a product. Of course, his opinions
and advice will reflect his personal interest in his products, but jeez,
we're all adults here. Lots of folks use public forums to further their own
personal gain, and disclaimers notwithstanding, it seems EVERYONE has an
axe to grind in one way or another. I've never owned a Schmidling product
but immediately recognized his post as that of a manufacturer. He doesn't
try to hide it. I have received useful info from his posts and do not see
why we can't benefit from them, keeping in mind that he has commercial
interest and regarding his opinions with a wary eye.
        I don't know Jack Schmidling (of course you don't know if I'm lying
or not). If I end up buying his mill, I will because I have determined it
to represent the best value to me.
      Jack, keep reading the HBD! I wish more product manufacturers kept as
closely in touch with the concerns of their customers. And lets all lighten
up.


        2) TORQUE! When I was just another gear-head and was torqueing down
the head bolts on my car engine, I read the torque on my Snap-On wrench in
FOOTPOUNDS. Yes the wrench itself says footpounds. Then I cleaned the
grease from under my nails and went to engineering school and they told me
that torque is measured in POUND-FEET, work in foot-pounds.
        Thank God for the commutative law of multiplication because I think
it reduces this argument to one of semantics. Torque is indeed calculated
by multiplying a force by a distance, and it doesn't matter which comes
first. Work is calculated by multplying a distance by a force . Torque and
Work are not identical, they just unfortunately share the same units to
confuse us!
        Of course the Metric boys solved this problem in the SI system of
units. Torque is expressed in NEWTON-METERS (my torque wrench agrees with
the engineering textbooks on this one) and work in JOULES, but dammit, you
get the joules by multiplying newtons times meters!

        Anyway, for the practical-minded, I think its a case of you say
potayto, I say potahto, Dan Quail says potatoe.

Thatz my dollar three eighty.




Harry

 ..............................................

"A man's got to know his limitations"
 ..............................................



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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 95 17:11:04 EDT
From: "Wuerstl, Matthew A." <WUERSTL at WMAVM7.VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: CO2 Tank Quick Disconnect?

A question for the HB Keggers in the crowd...
I have been kegging since Jan. with 3 pinlock kegs (a gift from an old
roommate). Today I ordered 3 more ball lock kegs from St. Patrick's. I was
wondering if anyone knows of a quick disconnect type connection for use on
the tank side of the CO2 line. Something along the lines of an air compressor
disconnect but smaller? I've got a tee to split the gas line, but since I use
the tank in several locations (house, garage, crawlspace...) I'd prefer to not
have to take two different lines with me every where I go. I can of course get
out the screw driver and unscrew the hose clamp everytime, but this is a pain
and causes unnecessary wear on the gas line. Any ideas or product info would
be greatly appreciated!

TIA
Matt Wuerstl
wuerstl at lfs.loral.com


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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 17:18:38 -0400
From: DONBREW at aol.com
Subject: bad beer, use of

CURLEYS at carleton.edu  sez:
>So, my question is one that
>I'm sure every homebrewer has to face once in a while: what to do with a
>irrepairably bad batch of beer?
   My current solution to this problem is to pour the stinky beer into
saucers placed around the hops plants and my SO's insignificant vegetation
:-) so as to trap and kill slugs.

brew onward,
Don


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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 17:53:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: "mike spinelli" <paa3983 at dpsc.dla.mil>
Subject: weihenstephan liquid yeast and sulphory smells

  I'm brewin' a batch of hefeweizen using Wyeast #3068 weihenstephan and am
getting a real stinky rotten-eggish kinda smell in the primary.  Maybe
sulphor-like?  My local brew shop says it's normal for this strain.
  I've used the Wyeast wheat blend #3056 and didn't get this noxious smell.
  Any insights out there?
                                     Mike

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Date: Thu, 06 Apr 1995 18:26:33 EDT
From: Jay Hersh <hersh at x.org>
Subject: broadside from you know who


i have not been reading hbd of late but the following was brought to my
attention.....

From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)

> Not only did Jay Hersh start a "Jack-Free Forum" but he blatantly and 
> regularly offered plans, on the HBD, to convert a pasta maker into a grain 
> mill.  Nothing wrong with the idea but his motives and MO were rather 
> transparent.

said forum is commercial free and invitation only, targeted at advanced
homebrewers, sory if this annoys you but in America we are still allowed the
freedom to choose who we associate with. Subscription requests acceptance is 
based on several things. Maintaining a manageable size, maintaining discussion
of desired quality and maintaning a Private and commercial free discussion.
Think of it as the PBS of homebrewing...

as for the "pasta maker" the product in question is not now, nor was it ever a
"pasta maker" it is a grain mill designed and marketed by Marcato, a company
which also makes pasta makers. I personally have no apologies for making
information available regarding a comparable product which with some adjustment
performs comparably to others on the market for 1/2 the price. That is the
nature of capitalism. unfortunately in your narrow conspiracy oriented universe
competition comprises character assasination and freedom to associate with
those we choose in a manner of our choosing (ie to hold content oriented
discussions rather than commercials)  a boycott. One need only to read your
words some few lines from where you deny yourself a proponent of consipiracies
against yourself to see these self same conspiracies proclaimed.

While it is quite apparent that your ingenuity in designing and marketing a
quality product can not be disputed it is your sore lack of interpersonal
skills, your unfounded derision of a well founded knowledge base and the
knowledgeable individuasls who advance, and your tiresome howls of conspiracy
and victimization which make you most irksome and insure you a place aside
Justus Barton von Liebig in the annals of brewing infamy.


	Jay Hersh

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalts

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Date: 07 Apr 1995 00:49:18 GMT
From: Greg_O'Brien at ortel.org (Greg O'Brien)
Subject: Cleveland Brew Spots?

Hi All,

I'm visiting Cleveland at the end of April on a business trip, and am
wondering if anybody could tell me about noteworthy brewpubs or taverns to
check out.  Private e-mail preferred.  Thanks in advance!

Greg

Greg_O'Brien at ortel.com


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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 17:23:24 -0700
From: danpack at grape-ape.che.caltech.edu (Dan Pack)
Subject: posting competition results


I for one support the posting of results on the HBD.  Dion Hollenbeck
and others have made the important point that it allows one to see
what categories are "hot" and which are not.  However, in addition
to the names of the winners and the number of entries in a particular
category, I think the scores of the winners should be included (they
seem to be left out of most).  This way not only do you know which
categories are hot but you know what kind of competition you're up
against.

Just one man's opinion.....
Dan

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1702, 04/10/95