FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  RE: HBD #1698 (MClarke950)
  Bothersome questions (Philip Gravel)
  Re: goop on krausen; gelatin (Desmond Mottram)
  Hops Insecticide Responses (Art McGregor)
  hop vines ("Wallinger, W. A.")
  Propane/HBD usage (Steve Robinson)
  Pasta machine grain mill,etc (Eleanore Ann Gross)
  Big Mouth (Norman Pyle)
  Bock question (SPEAKER.CURTIS)
  Gelatin Use (Kirk Fleming / Metro Technologies)
  Gelatin and yeast (Richard Hampo)
  ? Blow off and Carboy Size (molloy)
  Indoor cookers/Breweries and Pubs (ChipShabazian)
  Maltmill rollers and service (Jim Busch)
  starting a homebrew club (6188)" <PMAHERP at gandalf.qgraph.com>
  Quebec (EDGELL)
  Slow Starter ("Patrick E. Humphrey 708-937-3295")
  All-grain vs. extract. (Russell Mast)
  Will my beer be ok? (mdemers)
  Mashing dark grain? (Paul Baker)
  NHC Chicago Drop-Off Procedures ("Roger Deschner  ")
  ftp problems (Grant Newbold)
  AHA Nat. 1st Rnd Denver (James Spence/AHA/BJCP)
  homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com (John Scott)
  Too Many Hops! (Snife)
  Coleman coolers (Aaron Shaw)
  Stuck or not? (DICKERSONP)
  Coleman coolers, syringes (PatrickM50)
  yeast (mtruhe)
  Yeast storage: one more data point (Pierre Jelenc)
  TSP (Pierre Jelenc)
  Beer engines/Counting names/HBU BBS Network (usfmchql)
  RE Coleman Coolers (Jon Binkley)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 21:08:41 -0400
From: MClarke950 at aol.com
Subject: RE: HBD #1698

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
SC askes:
>So, my question is one that I'm sure every homebrewer has to face 
>once in a while: what to do with a irrepairably bad batch of beer? 

Why not try adding different spices to alter the taste?  This has been done
by 
brewers for a long time.  Even if it doesn't help the taste of beer (which it
might), it could give you some insight into 'specility' herb beers.   Just an
idea.
- ------------------------------
Philip DiFalco askes about:
>    FELINFOEL
>    Double Dragon Export Ale 

Whew.  I haven't seen Felinfoel here in Seattle for a couple of years.  I
think 
they were bought out by Thames Brewing. (My reason for saying this is that
Thames started putting out Welsh ale around the time Felinfoel disapppeared
from the shelves.  The packaging is also similiar.)  Before that (3-4 years
ago? 
They were forced to rename there beers because of copyrights, I believe. (ie
Double Dragon became Welsh Bitter or Ale), sorry It's been a while.  I have
never seen it in cans.  You might be able to get the address from Michael 
Jackson's Pocket Guide.  Good Hunting.  Felinfoel made a good product. 
- ------------------------------
Jay Rustine askes: 
>I am a neophyte homebrewer who is being considered for a position in
>Wilmington, North Carolina.
>>a) Homebrewing is legal there.
>>b) There are any good homebrew supply stores nearby. 

a) It is legal.
b) FWIW - these North Carolina shops were listed in a previous post:
Alternative Beverage      NC  800-365-2739                       
BrewBetter Supply         NC                  Brewbetter at aol.com
- ------------------------------
Gary askes:
>Is it still good ("Lagering" at 50 deg) for 2 months, or is it tree
fertilizer.
>If it's still good, should I get my ass in gear and bottle now (and do I
need 
>to add more yeast).

I would check the SG and taste the sample.  If the SG is what you were 
shooting for and the beer tastes good, go ahead and bottle.  I read in the
post
before that it can be a good idea to use active yeast/priming mix with
lagers.     
- ------------------------------
Rob askes:
>I would like to hear some chatter about people's experiences with priming
>with DME!
I've used corn sugar and DME. FWIW I prefer the corn sugar.  It works faster,
is easier to work with and I have'n't noticed the difference.  
- ------------------------------
Hop Question:  I have had my hop plant in a planter and am thinking about 
putting it in the ground.  The vines are already poking out of the dirt.  Can
I 
plant them now or should I wait til next year?  
- ------------------------------

TIA
Mike


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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 95 21:34 CDT
From: pgravel at mcs.com (Philip Gravel)
Subject: Bothersome questions


===> Phillip Dickerson asks about a few bothersome questions:

>1)  What really is the need to make a starter?  My fermentations always take
>off within 12 hours and usually finish at or near the appropriate final
>gravity.  Is it really worth the trouble, with say a Wyeast product?

Have you used liquid yeasts before?  Did these fermentations use dry or
liquid yeast?  The amount of yeast in the Wyeast pack is much less than
the 7 grams you get in a dry yeast packet.  (The fraction that is
viable is probably higher in the liquid yeast.)  For best results, it's
always advisable to use a starter.  This is especially true for lagers.

>2)  If I wanted to force them to ferment some more, could I rack to a
>secondary and pitch more yeast?  Right now, I'm doing an IPA that started at
>1.057 and I'm worried that it might finish way too high.

Yes you could, but the reasons why the fermenation stopped might determine
whether it will restart.  If the yeast were shocked, new yeast could help.
If the yeast ran out of fermentable sugars, it not likely additional yeast
would help.  If you're using a liquid yeast and you pitch a healthy starter,
this shouldn't be a problem.

>3) If I do encounter a stuck fermentation with a Wyeast, what would happen if
>I re-pitch with dry yeast?  Will the flavor profile be proportional to the
>amount of fermentation that each yeast was able to accomplish?

Most likely.

>4)  Lastly, I'm really considering trying a secondary.  Won't I run the risk
>of oxidation when I rack into the secondary?  It seems that you'd end up with
>a headspace full of O2???

Not if you're careful to not to splash the beer.  If you make sure that the
end of the racking cane in the secondary is below the level of the level
of the beer, it won't splash.  Yes there will be air (and oxygen) in the
head space.  But, outgassing of carbon dioxide from the beer and additional
fermentation in the secondary will displace the air.

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel   Lisle, Illinois               pgravel at mcs.com

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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 95 10:20:35 BST
From: des at pandora.swindon.ingr.com (Desmond Mottram)
Subject: Re: goop on krausen; gelatin

"Crake_Kurtis_LT" writes:
[chop..] both all-grain batches I've made have developed a sticky, 
>      gooey sort of layer on top of the krausen foam after about the third 
>      day of fermentation.

I always get layer of grey-brown scum on top of the foam with all-grain 
batches. I usually skim it off. The beer is always OK. I thought it was 
either yeast or gunk from the mash collecting on the surface. Taste the 
beer and if it's OK don't worry. Don't junk it.


Gordon.Mckeever at jpl.nasa.gov writes:

[chop] Also, a couple quick questions about using gelatin instead of Irish
>      Moss. When do you put it in? During the boil? After the boil?

I use both Irish Moss during the boil and gelatin when it goes into the 
barrel (after the ferment). Gelatin is brilliant: it's simple, clears the 
beer quickly and has a long shelf life. I don't think it will be much use 
any time before fermenting. It's normally used in the barrel, like finings. 
The books say it won't re-clear if it's disturbed, unlike finings. I have 
an irrational dislike of finings though. I don't like the idea of fish goop 
floating about in my beer. Though why animal hoof should be any better beats 
me.

Rgds, Desmond Mottram

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Date: Fri, 07 Apr 1995 07:28:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Art McGregor <mcgregap at acq.osd.mil>
Subject: Hops Insecticide Responses

Hi All!
Below are responses on Liquid Sevin and other Hops' insecticides.    BTW, I
tried the beetle traps last year, and they caught a lot of Japanese
Beetles, but I'm not sure if the traps did more good than bad.  I've heard
that the traps will attract more bugs than you would normally get.
   I've also heard of making a Tobacco-based tea that can be safely sprayed on
plants.  You make it like a sun tea using a brick of chewing tobacco, then
store the tea.  To spray you use only a few teaspoons (?) of the tobacco
tea in a gallon of water and spray on the plants.  You are also supposed to
add a small amount of liquid detergent (a drop or two) to help with the
wetting properties.  I'm not sure about all of the procedures though.  
Hoppy Growing, and Good Breing :)
Art McGregor (mcgregap at acq.osd.mil) Northern Virginia, USA
        ................. RESPONSES ....................
******
From: Don (DONBREW at aol.com)
    The problem with pesticides is that you must make sure
to get both sides of the leaves.  As long as you observe the label
instructions you won't die from them and you probably won't murder any beer.
 Try planting some coriander around the plants to encourage the "good" bugs
which eat the aphids.  Also incredible amounts of water.
******
From: Phil (PGILLMAN at POMONA.EDU)
    You might also want to try rotennone(sp?) as it does a good job on the
beetles, but is rendered harmless by exposure to light in a day or two-
ie- you can put it on right up to the end- 
it works great on raspberries, and rinses of easily as well
******
From: Glenn (au075 at freenet.buffalo.edu)
    Using liquid sevin is not a good idea for hops.  Fruits 
treated with liquid sevin have to be washed before they can be 
eaten.  Washing hops would be disastrous.  My wife is an avid
gardener so I enlisted her for help.
 1. Try placing Japanese beetle traps in your yard.  The traps will
attract beetles so you don't want them real close to your hops.  
2. Take 3-4 heads of garlic and crush with mallet etc. Place in a 
bucket of water (1gal).  Allow to sit 2-3 weeks, stirring 
occasionally.  Strain.  Use 1 part garlic extract to 2 parts water.
Spray on your hop plant.  Reapply after every heavy rain.  This 
is good for aphids, cutworms and many other insects - possibly
japanese beetles.
3.  Use diazinon or oftanol on your lawn in the spring AND fall.
Japanese beetles live in your lawn as grubs.  The best way to keep
them off your hops is to kill them when they are still grubs.  This
will also kill some other grubs that will eventually eat your hops.
Your local garden/home center should be able to help you.  
******
From:   Pat (/O=PRDMSMAC/S=HUMPHREY/G=PATRICK/ at x400.pprd.abbott.com)
    As well as a homebrewer, I am also an organic gardener.   I only use
insecticides that are safe for humans and degrade quickly in the environment. 
Liquid Sevin is very toxic compared to other insecticides.  When I need to
treat my vegetables for any type of beetles I use a product called Rotenone. 
It is extracted from plant roots and does a great job of killing off beetles. 
I use it in the powder form and dust the plants as needed every two weeks.  It
degrades when exposed to sunlight and is much less toxic than Sevin.  I'm sure
that you wouldn't want any insecticide residue in your homebrew.
   If you are having problems with catapillars (larvae) eating leaves of the
vegetables (or hops) you can use a product that the company I work for (Abbott
Labs) manufactures called DiPel.  It is a bacterium commonly found in large
numbers in the soil and is supplied in a powder form.  It is sprayed on the
plants in a suspension.  When the catapillars eat the treated leaves they
ingest the bacterium, which grows in their gut and creates a toxin that kills
the catapillar.  Works very well and is very safe.  
   You can usually find either of these products in a good garden supply store
but probably not K-Mart, Wal-Mart etc. Pat Humphrey, Microbiologist and
Homebrewer



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Date: 07 Apr 1995 05:45:05 PDT
From: "Wallinger, W. A." <WAWA at chevron.com>
Subject: hop vines


From: Wallinger, W. A. (Wade)
To:  OPEN ADDRESSING SERVI-OPENADDR
Subject:  hop vines
Date: 1995-04-07 07:31
Priority:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


i have no place to grow hops vertically, as i understand they are supposed
to be. only one of three hop varieties i planted yesterday survived through
the season. i created a make-shift trellis along the back of my garden,
which is bordered by a privacy fence. i ran wire the length of the garden,
about 1 foot away from the fence, at a height of about four or five feet. i
then ran wires from the base of the plant to the horizontal wire at several
locations. the drawback to this method is that the hops do not run naturally
in a horizontal direction, and have to be positioned onto the wires to keep
them as spread out as possible. i'm sure the yield suffers since the vines
end up growing on top of one another, but the plants are otherwise quite
healthy.


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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 95 09:13:20 EDT
From: Steve Robinson <Steve.Robinson at analog.com>
Subject: Propane/HBD usage


There's been a lot of discussion lately regarding the indoor vs. outdoor
usage of propane, and several people have indicated that they've used 35,000
BTU propane burners indoors with only a window for ventilation.  I think it's
important to point out that there are two classes of propane burners commonly
used for homebrewing:  the above mentioned 35,000 BTU burners and the 170,000
to 200,000 "rocket engine" burners.  While it may be possible to get away with
using the smaller burners indoors, I'd STRONGLY RECOMMEND AGAINST USING THE
BIG BURNERS INSIDE!!!

In another aspect of my life, I frequently encounter marine installations of
propane tanks for use in cooking onboard.  These installations always have
the propane tank located with a locker that is vented in such a way that, if
the propane tank were to leak it would vent overboard and not down into the
sleeping compartment below.  There are always propane sniffers mounted below
to sound an alarm if significant propane does make its way into the cabin.

In this area of the country (New England) it's not uncommon to use propane
for cooking, if there doesn't happen to be natural gas in the street.  Once
again, the propane tanks are located OUTSIDE the house and sniffers are mounted
in the basement to detect propane inside the house.  In short, if you want to
use propane indoors, go ahead, but use large applications of common sense and
you're probably much better off leaving the tank outside, even if the burner
is indoors.  Personally I wouldn't do it - I have a very healthy respect for
propane - but it's your house.

On another note, I wonder how many of the multiple posters in Spencer's poll
were really participants in the bouncing mail/vacation program fiasco last
summer? :-) :-)

Steve Robinson in N. Andover, MA
steve.robinson at analog.com
- --------
All-Grain:  A method of saving money on brewing ingredients in order to have
more to spend on brewing equipment.

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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 09:50:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eleanore Ann Gross <egross at emory.edu>
Subject: Pasta machine grain mill,etc


Here's two requests from a first time poster:
 - As a graduate student (hence no cash), I'd be interested in converting 
my hand crank pasta machine into a grain mill as mentioned in an earlier 
HBD. Could someone email me the plans or tell me where to find them?
 - Does anyone out there know of a source for a "siphon wonder from down 
under" or a similar item? I saw one in action, and the  self priming siphon 
aide works really well. The owner of the "wonder" said the company he 
bought it from vanished.It seemed like a ten dollar gift from the gods, 
and I want one.
             TIA,lee

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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 95 8:05:12 MDT
From: Norman Pyle <npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM>
Subject: Big Mouth

I said, about the HBD posting data:

>>Applying a little common sense to the numbers, I'd throw out all of the
>>contributors who've only posted once so far this year - someone who posts
>>once every three months probably isn't carrying much of the information load
>>of the digest.

OK guys, it wasn't meant as a slight to those who don't post much.
Sooorrrrryyyy!  I haven't exactly been filling up the bandwidth with brewing
gems these days, either.  No matter how poorly it is stated, my point is that
a small portion of the HBD subscribers post the lion's share of articles.  I
call that "information" and I believe it is useful.  I wasn't trying to
"throw out" people in that statement, I was trying to throw out numbers, in
an attempt to draw some conclusions.  No offense was intended so please don't
take any.

As Bob says, "Now go have a beer",
Norm

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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 09:50 EDT
From: CSS2 at OAS.PSU.EDU (SPEAKER.CURTIS)
Subject: Bock question

To the collective wisdom (?) of the HBD:

I have a bock (actually, I was trying to make a Dobbelbock, but back to the
story).  The recipe was something like:

3.3# M&F Amber
6# light DME (Not Laaglander - never again!)
0.5# Crystal Malt
0.5# Chocolate Malt
2 oz. Hallertaur (boil)
1 oz. Tettanger (finish)
2 packs Superior lagar yeast (dry - rehydrated)

S.G. was 1.078...about right for a dobbel.  It fermented very well for 6 days
in the primary; racked to the secondary where it's been for almost 3 weeks.
Airlock activity was down to one bubble every 4 minutes or so; I figured it
was time to bottle.  I checked the S.G.-> 1.040!!!!!  I knew I would end with
a beer with a slighly high final gravity, but 1.040 seems a little extreme.
It tastes wonderful, and that is my dilemma:  I am kinda afraid to bottle
anything that has a S.G. of 1.040 - there is some serious residual
sugars/dextrins in there, and I don't want bottle grenades!  But I don't want
to repitch with more yeast and screw up the flavor.
Any suggestions???
FWIW, I fermented this beer at room temp. (about 65F in my house)...It is a
lager, but when I put it downstairs in my basement (50F) fermentation stopped
completely.  Superior is a dry lagar yeast imported from Australia.  I have
never used it before, and don't know what to expect from it.  I have primarily
switched over to Wyeast liquid yeasts, but I wanted to brew this Bock and
didn't have a smack pack ready to go....Any advice, encouragement would be
appreciated... private email preferred...TIA
Hoppy Brewing
Curt
css2 at oas.psu.edu

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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 09:11:34 -0600 (MDT)
From: Kirk Fleming / Metro Technologies <flemingk at usa.net>
Subject: Gelatin Use

Folks report the effectiveness of gelatin finings, but I've used it twice 
now with no effect whatever.  I suspect it's because I've boiled the 
water *after* adding the gelatin.  Is proper practice to boil, cool a 
little, add gelatin, dissolve, then add to beer?

Kirk R Fleming / Colorado Springs / flemingk at usa.net 

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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 95 11:25:07 EDT
From: captain at vulcan.srl.ford.com (Richard Hampo)
Subject: Gelatin and yeast

Howdy,

I've got a pretty basic question. I've got a beer that is still 
cloudy (in secondary) and I want to try
gelatin or some such stuff to clear it up. Question is,
if I add the stuff to the secondary and it clears up, do I need
to add new yeast at priming time before I bottle? Does gelatin
take out the yeast? Or what does it take out to clear the beer?

Thanks,

Richard Hampo

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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 12:48:08 -0400
From: molloy at tcpcs3.dnet.etn.com
Subject: ? Blow off and Carboy Size

(Insert suck up for collective wisdom here)

Before I continue on my bone-head pute a hole in the other end of the carboy
idea, I have a question the blow off tube users of the world could answer
please!
Are there any performance differences in using a 5gal. vs a 6 or 6.5gal.
carboy when brewing 5gal. batches? I also want to use a .5" blow off tube
and I find myself modifying stopper holes.

Question for Brewcap users? Is the blow off more efficient blowing "down"
instead of "up" into the tube making the Brewcap blow off better when
used with a 6.5gal carboy.

I want to thank Eric Peters, your Brewcap info is excelent and very thorough.
(Insert pre-thanks for all incomming info)
Private mail fine.
                     
                           Its Beer:30 In Zootopia 

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Date: Fri, 07 Apr 95 10:39:00 PDT
From: ChipShabazian <ChipS at 800sw.com>
Subject: Indoor cookers/Breweries and Pubs


Yet another opinion on using gas indoors:

My first gas cooker was a natural gas burner that I pulled out of an old 
water heater.  Since this burner used natural gas instead of propane, it is 
much safer to use indoors (with proper ventillation of course).  Anyone can 
easily make one by simply pulling the burner ring out of a natural gas water 
heater, and connecting a valve and some line to your current natural gas 
line.  I personally used an old tire rim for my "base" and installed the 
burner ring in the middle.  Eventually I bought a new King Kooker and moved 
everything to the back porch.  All I had to do was replace the orafice on my 
natural gas burner with one for propane, and I had a second burner ready to 
go.

I see alot of people asking "I will be in so and so, where should I go"  Is 
there not a FAQ somewhere with this info?  If not, I will compile one if 
people will help by submitting information and comments in a standardized 
format.  This could get VERY large and time intensive, so if it is not 
standardized, it will take too much time and I may let it slide.  Private 
E-Mail ideas for a format, or post the location of a current FAQ.  I will 
let everyone know what I come up with.

Chip Shabazian
chips at 800sw.com

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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:40:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Maltmill rollers and service

A few months ago I posted that I was having difficulty getting some
malts to feed through my motorized Maltmill.  Jack has upgraded my
mill to use the newer version of knurled roller, and the mill works
very well again.  Since I brought it up originally here, I thought
Id report back that Jack does indeed stand by his product and his
responsiveness to problems is commendable.  Im now back to crushing
80 lbs of malt in about 30 minutes.

Jim Busch

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Date: Fri, 07 Apr 1995 13:52:53 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Pat Maher - Pwk I.S. (6188)" <PMAHERP at gandalf.qgraph.com>
Subject: starting a homebrew club

We have a good number of people at work that brew their own beer and we are 
thinking about starting our own homebrew club. I am looking any available 
information on starting and promoting a club.

Reply to me e-mail if you like.

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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:15:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: EDGELL at uwmfe.neep.wisc.edu
Subject: Quebec


I am getting married in May and hope to travel to Quebec City for a honeymoon.
Would those who know please suggest good bars and brewpubs for Quebec City.
Also any must stops along the way there from Wisconsin 
(i.e. Madison -> Chicago -> Detroit -> Toronto -> Montreal -> Quebec City)

Please respond via persoanl email

Thanks,
Dana Edgell
edgell at uwmfe.neep.wisc.edu

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Date: Fri, 07 Apr 1995 13:39:00 -0600 (CST)
From: "Patrick E. Humphrey 708-937-3295" <HUMPHREY.PATRICK at igate.abbott.com>
Subject: Slow Starter

Tim Burger asked about a slow starter in a bottle:

>Last saturday morning I cooked up a bit of wort to use as a starter for a 
>vial of Yeast Lab's American Ale liquid yeast.  I boiled the wort up, 
>cooled it down (covered, outside), and pitched the room temp yeast culture 
>to the cooled wort in a carefully sanitized 20 oz. beer bottle and 
>attached an airlock. 

Just a thought, did you aerate the starter in the bottle?  When you boiled 
the liquid you may have liberated much of the oxygen and there probably 
wasn't much available for the yeast to use.

I tried using the email address in your post but it kept bouncing.

- ---------------

On another subject...

I don't have a grain mill and for the small amount of grain required in a 
partial/extract brew, I just use a wood rolling pin (not a good idea 
because I have made ALOT of dents in the pin and my wife is getting upset).  
Has anyone has tried using a food processer ala. Cuisunart (sp.?) to crack 
the grains?  I realize that running the machine too long will grind the 
grain into flour and I'll end up making bread from them. 

I am a microbiologist and occasionally I use a good old Waring blender 
(most people use them to make foo foo drinks) at work when I have to 
prepare some growth media.  Quaker Oats grinds up into a fine powder in no 
time at all!

Thanks,

Pat


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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 15:05:58 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: All-grain vs. extract.


Kurt Crake :

>      First, the krausen resulting from fermenting my all-grain beers seems 
>      to be larger ...  Is it typical to have noticibly improved 
>      ferments from all-grain worts?

I don't know if it's typical, but I had the same thing.

>      Second, both all-grain batches I've made have developed a sticky, 
>      gooey sort of layer on top of the krausen foam after about the third 
>      day of fermentation. 

So did all of mine.

> It was painful, but I dumped my first all-grain batch...

Ahh!  Never do that.  Even if you KNOW something's infected, it might turn 
out nice.  (It's rare, but...)  Even with a constant shortage of empty vessels
for new batches, I have a rule of thumb whereby I don't dump ANYTHING until 
I've given it three months.  If I taste an improvement, I'll give it another 
three months, until it's obvious it's going to be crap, or it gets good enough
to drink.

Anyway, even if that stuff up there IS some kind of bad bug, it's high atop 
your krausen, and, I think, safely away from your beer.  I've made about ten
all-grain batches, all have had that "stuff" up there, and they've all turned
out drinkable, most of them darned good, if I don't say so myself.  

Gordon McKeever :

>      I have heard references to magazines called 'Zymurgy' and 'Brewing
>      Techniques(?)'. How good are these mags? Which is better?

The word on the street is that Brewing Techniques is more serious and Zymurgy
is more fun.  I've flipped through a couple copies of BT and learned something
each time.

>      Also, a couple quick questions about using gelatin instead of Irish
>      Moss. When do you put it in? During the boil? After the boil?

Oh, heck, use them both.  I do. Irish moss goes in during the boil, gelatin
at bottling (some people use it at racking) time.  

>      Thanks to everybody who offered suggestions and comforting words on my
>      stuck fermentation. I bottled it Monday and it didn't taste too
>      wretched (considering it was warm and flat). But if you see an
>      'unsubscribe' message from me in the next couple of weeks you can
>      deduce that it was truly awful and I will have a bunch of brewing
>      stuff for sale cheap.

Hmm...  Well, follow my above advice, and maybe you'll resubscribe after three
months...  Maybe not.  

Joe Clayton :

> I'd like to hear from some of the Ann Arbor brewers to find out where they get
> their supplies.

Well, I'm from from there, but when I was there, there's a store called 
"Big 10" or <something> 10.  I think it's on Packard, south of town.  They had 
a great supply of Belgian Ales, and had some basic brewing equipment.  I can't
vouch for their selection, prices, or knowledgability about homebrewing.

 -R

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Date: Fri, 07 Apr 95 16:20:53 EST
From: mdemers at ccmailpc.ctron.com
Subject: Will my beer be ok?


        I would like to respond every post that ever read something like 
     this:
            I made a batch of beer and.... (insert your favorite rantings   
            about why they think their beer MAY be bad).
     
        My suggestion to one and all is:  TASTE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  
     How can we tell over the net whether or not your beer is any good?  
     Take a sample and see for yourself.  Tasting a warm, flat, or even 
     partially fermented beer will reveal serious flaws if there are any.  
     Granted, some posts describe a brewing technique that has obvious and 
     fatal flaws.  However, most of the time, people post descriptions of a 
     "flawed" brewing experience when they don't even know that the beer 
     tastes bad!  TASTE your wort pre-boil, during the boil, post-boil, at 
     racking time, at bottling time, and (at least) one bottle a week until 
     it's gone!  
                                        Good Day,
     
                                        Mike Demers

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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 95 13:28:29 PDT
From: Paul Baker <paulb at tracker.jpl.nasa.gov>
Subject: Mashing dark grain?

My brewing buddy and I just made an American Brown Ale which is basically a
Pete's Wicked Ale clone. I just transfered it to the secondary and it tastes
very good, but it is on the dark side.

I believe the darker color is because we mashed the chocolate malt with
the rest of the grains. A couple months back there was a good thread
where the collective wisdom basically said to hold off on adding the
dark grains to the mash. Instead add them at mash out. If I remember
correctly dark grains were defined as chocolate, black patent and
roasted barley. Does anyone recall this thread? I should have paid
more attention.

How do the rest of you all grainers use these grains? The system in
question here consists of a 15 gal keg with the top loped off, a high
btu propane burner (no, it is not in the basement by the sump pump ;-))
and a 15 gal cooler for the grain bed.

BTW, we made this brew for the upcoming Southern California Homebrewers
Festival. If any of you are going to be there then please stop by the
COVBS (Crown of the Valley Brewing Society) table/area and try a mug.

TIA

Paul Baker
Telos Corp/Jet Propulsion Laboratory

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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 16:08:13 CDT
From: "Roger Deschner " <U52983 at UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU>
Subject: NHC Chicago Drop-Off Procedures

Please pardon if you see this message multiple times. It's time-
sensitive.

A number of people have been dropping off their National Homebrew
Competition entries for the Chicago region at Millrose Brewery in person.
This is good, as it saves the risks of shipping.

BUT your entry **MUST** still be packaged. Place it in a box, with the
check and forms inside the box. A simple, single-wall box will do, since
it doesn't have to survive UPS. Or, put it all in a six-pack carrier and
place the six-pack inside a paper sack, with the checks and paperwork,
and staple the sack shut. Whatever you do, it must be enclosed and
sealed, so that the checks and paperwork do not stray. And it should have
"NHC" written on it. Go to the Country Store side of the building to drop
of your entry, not to the brewery or restaurant. (Directions: I-90 at
Barrington Road; north side of the highway.)

Millrose has been getting a number of people walking in with loose
bottles and loose checks, and things are getting confusing. Please do NOT
walk in with loose bottles. Your entry might not make it, or it might get
crossed up with somebody else's entry.

Thank you,

=============== "Civilization was CAUSED by beer." =====================
Roger Deschner      University of Illinois at Chicago     rogerd at uic.edu
Aliases: u52983 at uicvm.uic.edu   U52983 at UICVM.BITNET   R.Deschner at uic.edu
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ NHC '95 Chicago Region Entry Registrar /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 16:54:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: Grant Newbold <newhbio at cccadm.gi.cccneb.edu>
Subject: ftp problems

Please excuse my ignorance but I am trying to get to the Cat's Meow. I 
have tried on two different days to get into ftp.stanford.edu and simply 
cannot get past the password request.  Any help would be appreciated.  My 
computer frustration level is at an all time high.
Thanks.
Grant Newbold

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Date: 07 Apr 95 18:50:19 EDT
From: James Spence/AHA/BJCP <70740.1107 at compuserve.com>
Subject: AHA Nat. 1st Rnd Denver

First Round judging--Denver
1995 American Homebrewers Association
National Homebrew Competition
May 6 & 7, 1995.

Broadway Brewing Co.
2441 Broadway
Denver, CO

Judges and Stewards are needed.

Contacts:
Phil Fleming at (303) 469-9847 - Site Director
Caroline Duncker (303) 447-0816 x116;  caroline at aob.org
James Spence (303) 447-0816 x121; james at aob.org


May 6 is National Homebrew Day!


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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 18:48:12 -0700
From: johns at johns.seanet.com (John Scott)
Subject: homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com




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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 22:17:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Snife <kfitzger at abacus.bates.edu>
Subject: Too Many Hops!

I can't beleive I' writing this, but I have too many hops!  I just
received  a pound of the Boston Beer Co.'s Hellertau Mittlefruh hops.  I'm
finishing school for the semester and will be on the road all summer(no
time to brew) and have all these hops!!!  Can I put them in the freezer
over the summer?  Does anyone have any hop recipies. . . Hop Bread? Hop
Soup? Hop Stew?  Help me!!!!!!!!!!!
					Thanks,
					 K. Patrick FitzGerald

Private answers requested kfitzger at abacus.bates.edu

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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 09:04:15 -0400
From: ar568 at freenet.carleton.ca (Aaron Shaw)
Subject: Coleman coolers

>From: Lenny Garfinkel <lenny at zeus.datasrv.co.il>
>Subject: coleman coolers

>I would like to prepare a picnic cooler mash tun and would like to know
>if anyone has info on the heat resistance of Coleman coolers.  I know
>that Gott is preferred over Rubbermaid since they stand up to mash temps
>better.  What about Coleman?  I have not seen Gott coolers here in Israel. 

     I too could not find any Gott coolers, so I bought a 48 litre
Coleman. It comes with a drain valve at the bottom and has the main
lid and a smaller one which is handy to check temperatures when mashing.
So far I have made 10+ batches with my Coleman cooler and I have 
experienced some warping, but nothing major. I have even been using 
boiling water to clean it, and my mash temps. remain quite constant.

I have no affiliation with Coleman, other than user.


- --
      "Come my lad, and drink some beer!"
                                           Aaron Shaw
                                           Ottawa, Canada

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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 09:42:43 -0400
From: DICKERSONP at aol.com
Subject: Stuck or not?

First of all, thanks for all the great responses about my last post - "a few
bothersome questions".  It is great to have a digest where a beginner can ask
"stupid" questions without being flamed to an ash.

Now, another set of questions.

I'm fermenting an India Pale Ale, specifically CP's "Palillalia IPA" from
TNCJOHB.  It used 7lbs DME, a little crystal malt, and a little toasted
malted barley.  Instead of using CP's method of steeping the grains while the
brewing water heated to a boil, I took the advice of the local homebrew store
and did a sort-of-decoction.  I took a quart of water, added the specialty
grains, heated to near boiling, then strained off the liquid, added hot water
(170F), strained, and so forth, until I collected about 1.5 gallons.

Anyway, the OG was 1.057, CP said it should be about 1.052, so I felt like I
had done pretty well.  This time, I even shook the heck out of the carboy
before pitching, cause I was worried about oxygen for the yeast. I pitched a
Wyeast 1028, which I later found out might have been a poor choice for this
style.  Fermentation started in about 12 hours and was vigorous, but not
enough to "blow off" any krausen.  This bothered me a little, but the
fermentation went on for about 2 days like this, which has been my experience
thus far.  Now, it has pretty much stopped. 

Yesterday, I racked to a secondary, after one week, and took an SG.  It was
1.030!!  Ack!  This is way too high!  It should get down to around 1.012!  It
tasted very sweet and the hops were virtually drowned out by sweetness.

My questions are:  
*  Did I do something wrong and do I have a stuck fermentation?  *  Does it
just take a long time to ferment a high-gravity beer?
*  Did the "decoction" make too much unfermentable stuff?
*  If it is stuck, what would I do to fix it??

Thanks for listening.  I apologize for the lengthy post!

===================
Phillip Dickerson
Brewing in the Bible Belt
Raleigh, NC
==================

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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 12:16:04 -0400
From: PatrickM50 at aol.com
Subject: Coleman coolers, syringes

Hi All!  

Lenny asks about using Coleman coolers which are more available in Israel
than Gott.  I use a Coleman PolyLite 28 (28 quart capacity) for my 5 gal
batches and it seems to hold the temp just fine.  Found it at the Recycling
Center for $1.  Cut a hole bigger than your faucet housing through the outer
shell and insulation.  Then mount the faucet to the inner shell and away you
go.

Re: using syringes for "beer engines".  Had to try this, not because my beers
lack head but because of my inability to resist a gadget that costs less than
$2.  First purchased a children's "oral liquid dispenser" from the pharmacy
for $1.89. Works great!  Then I found a small all plastic disposable syringe
 - the "Monoject 412" -  at the local vet supply house.  It has a curved tip,
is used to feed medicine to animals and cost less than $1.  We're talking
major play value here!  My wife thinks I'm nuts, of course.  But it really
perks up a half finished beer and the bubbles are very fine and long lasting.
 Just don't try squirting more than about 2ml of beer back into the glass! 

Sure it's silly and I'll probably tire of it in a week, but not before I take
it to the next brewclub meeting! 

Happy squirting,
Pat

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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 09:28:10 -0700
From: mtruhe at ucdavis.edu
Subject: yeast

a couple of months ago i made a very nice porter; except for the fact that
it is poorly carbonated -  if poured down the middle there is a small head
other than that nothing.  given it was about my fourth grain brew and the
third time i've used liquid yeast(wyeast 1028) i figured it was something i
did.  so i decided to brew a similar batch(as the first batch was nearing
depletion anyway) without a protein rest and see if it carbonated better.
i used 3/4 cups corn sugar to prime as i have done with sucess it the past.
well i tried one of the new brews the other night and it is poorly
carbonated after 10 days in the bottle.  is this common with wyeast 1028? -
the fermentaion went perfectly both times - or is it just me?

on a similar note, i recently had the chance to taste the differnce that
yeast can make.  i tried a beer that was brewed as 10 gallons then racked
to two five gallon fermenters, pitched with different liquid yeast,
fermented side by side, then bottled. the only difference being the yeast.
tasting these two side by side convinced me that yeast does much more than
turn sugar into CO2 and alcohol.  if your set up to brew 10 gallon batches
i highly recomend this experiment(thanks to dan sullivan for the excellent
beer/experiment).  Mark



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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 95 12:52:08 EDT
From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu>
Subject: Yeast storage: one more data point

I have plated successfully yeast that had been kept for 22 months in a 
stab in my kitchen fridge. 

Yeast: originally from a single colony from a Blanche de Bruges plating.
Stab: YPD in 0.7% agar in a glass screw-cap tube.

Visible colonies developped after 36 hours at room temperature. Two days
later, a large colony was restreaked, and all resulting colonies appear
identical. The first plate contains some petite mutants (about 20%). 

Pierre

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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 95 13:01:22 EDT
From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu>
Subject: TSP

in HBD 1701, Brad Barber <bbarber at tenet.edu> asks:

> Help!! Recently I filled a dirty carboy with a solution of 1 tsp. of TSP
> per gal. of cold water (according to my supplier's instruction).  Then I
> got lazy and allowed it to sit for several days.  When I returned with
> my carboy brush to scrub -- the carboy refused to come totally clean.
> There remained a residue of TSP on the interior that would not rinse
> with either hot or cold water.  I have been able to rub it off near the
> neck, but this stuff is stubborn.

I doubt that it is real TSP, i.e. trisodium phosphate. In areas where 
phosphates are banned, there are TSP substitutes that always leave such 
deposits as far as I can tell. An acid wash is the only thing that works, 
and it must be followed by a slightly acid rinse for better results if 
your water is hard.

Pierre




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Date: Sat, 08 Apr 1995 14:05:03 EDT
From: usfmchql at ibmmail.com
Subject: Beer engines/Counting names/HBU BBS Network                      


Hello, fellow brewers/sters! No specifics, just mayhem...

>>> Beer engine dyno-lab

I played around with various 'versions' of beer engine work-alikes seen here
and in other publications. They definitely mellow the flavor of the subject
beer, provide a dense, fine head; and reduce the carbonation. Which brings me
to a theory: The reduction of carbonation is, by definition, a reduction of
carbonic acid in the beer. Carbonic acid, or suspended CO2 is, one of the
sources of bitterness in the beer. My supposition is that the effect the beer
engine has on the beer's flavor profile is due more to the evolution of CO2
than the dissolution of raw air. Any thoughts?

On the downside, the reduced bitterness exposed a previously unperceived
phenolic finish to what I had classified as my best nut-brown ale yet :-(

>>> On to the name counting game...

I don't know what algorythm you (all encompassing you) use to count the
posters, but I know of some who posted from their wife's/husband's/friends
accounts, then got their own; those that the HBD has not consistantly
identified in the 'From' column though there IDs remained unchanged; and
those, like myself, who post from any one of four different internet accounts.
Therefor, any 'accounting' based on automatic, no intervention sort methods
are fated to yeild false results. Now, if Algis broke each of his replies into
separate letters, he'd probably be the most prolific (as well as informative,
IMHO - even with the Garetz 'vendetta' flaw ;-)) poster in all of
internet-dom...

(Sorry to prolong this thread, but one of my accounts from which I had
originally tried to post this from said it had. It lied...)

>>> HBU BBS Network...

And finally, I am about to go online with a Beer and Brewing (and Crafts, to
appease Momma...) BBS in SE Michigan; specifically Canton. I am contemplating
aligning the board with Andrew Patrick's HomeBrew U BBS Network, but need some
input from users of his boards, and potential users for this one. What do
current users of HBU BBS think of it? What do potential users want to see
here? I aim to serve. Private e-mail on this one (to pbabcock at oeonline.com
please) will count as a vote...

Brew on!
Patrick (Pat) G. Babcock | "Let a good beer be the exclamation point at the
pbabcock at oeonline.com    |  end of the day as every sentence requires proper
(313)46-70842 (V)        |  punctuation." - PGB
(313)46-70843 (F)        | "What he said." - anonymous


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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 12:28:01 -0700
From: Jon Binkley <binkley at genome.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: RE Coleman Coolers


Lenny Garfinkel wrote:

>I would like to prepare a picnic cooler mash tun and would like to know
>if anyone has info on the heat resistance of Coleman coolers.  I know
>that Gott is preferred over Rubbermaid since they stand up to mash temps
>better.  What about Coleman?  I have not seen Gott coolers here in Israel.

I use a rectangular Coleman "Steel Belted" cooler, with a slotted
copper tubing array at the bottom. It handles heat just fine. 
What it lacks in comparison to the cylindrical Gott is deapth
of the grain bed. Supposedly, you get a better extraction from
the narrower, deeper, cylindrical design. I won't dispute
this, but I've always been satisfied with the Coleman.

Jon Binkley


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1703, 04/11/95