FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  5 Liter Death Trap Warning (Paul Gibson)
  Mixing of Malts?? (SCHWAB_BRYAN)
  RE: Lack of Hop Aroma (david lawrence shea)
  HBD Subscriber Drop Robot (Kirk R Fleming)
  Molarity (George J Fix)
  NA beers, Burp and Belch (uswlsrap)
  Hop Aroma / Elk Droppings (Norman Pyle)
  Dry vs. Liquid, Fruity, Water & Extract, Wort Chiller, Aeration (Dean Pulsifer)
  Wit, pH, Jello, Otes. (Russell Mast)
  RE: Mash-Lauter Tun Question (Jim Dipalma)
  Transfer from commercial keg to corny keg (Harold LaRoux)
  dark grains again/beer talk ("David Sapsis")
  Re: malt relationships/pH paper (Dan Pack)
  AHA Conf. Roommate(s) Wanted (Jim Liddil)
  yet another first batch story/club (Larry Lowe)
  Sam Adams v. Coors Cutter (Mark Ohlstrom)
  Alcohol Labeling on Commercial Beer (David_Arnone)
  Late Hops / Brown vs. Green Bottles / Protein Break in Extracts (Rob Reed)
  dropped from list! (Rob Emenecker)
  The carboy that almost blew. (daryl kalenchuk)
  Malted Barley Sprouts (DALLEN)
  archives - how to read them! (Robert_Anderson)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 05:18:16 -0700
From: psg at ix.netcom.com (Paul Gibson)
Subject: 5 Liter Death Trap Warning

systems are potentially deadly!

I had one EXPLODE in hand! Now I'm not talking about some minor pop of 
escaping gas; I mean EXPLODE! The handle split into three pieces and 
the CO2 cartridge took off like a rocket. It missed my wife's head by 
inches, punched a softball sized hole in a tempered glass sliding door, 
and zoomed out into the back yard another six to seven feet. Of course, 
the rest of the door shattered and my hand was numb for the next half 
hour.  We were very lucky that it didn't break my hand or slam my wife 
square between the eyes! With enough energy to break the glass door and 
still travel six feet out into the yard, it probably would have crushed 
her skull.

Exactly what did happen?

I finished a keg on Friday night and took the Party Star out and rinsed 
it off. I left it on the kitchen counter overnight to dry. Saturday 
afternoon I grabbed a fresh keg, the Party Star and a new 16gm CO2 
cartridge and headed over to a neighbor's house. I put the keg on the 
dining table, inserted the Party Star and snapped it into place. I then 
inserted the CO2 cartridge in the handle and screwed it in until it 
touched the base. I then gave a quick half turn to pierce and seat the 
cartridge and WHAM, it exploded instantaneously. 

How did it Explode?

I honestly don't know. This was not a brand new system. I had tapped at 
least a dozen kegs before and this was the first keg of the party. So 
the unit wasn't an obvious factory defect, it wasn't old enough to be 
worn in any way, and it wasn't being operated by a bunch of drunks 
(although that shouldn't matter -- these things ought to be designed to 
be safe in the hands of the inebriated).

My best guess is that either the CO2 cartridge or something else 
momentarily blocked the vent hole in the handle. This allowed pressure 
to build and explode the handle. An inspection of the fragments of the 
handle showed no indication of debris that could have clogged the vent 
hole, so that's just a guess.

What to do now?

I really like the Party Star. I don't want to give it up. So I took it 
back to where I purchased it and asked what they thought. They were 
understandably concerned. After all, if someone had been hurt, the 
product liability lawyers would have targeted them and the national 
distributor primarily -- the manufacturer is in Germany and hard to 
sue.

Unfortunately they had nothing to offer, except to pay for the door and 
give me my money back on the Party Star or a new handle. We agreed to 
investigate having a handle made out of aluminum. However the machine 
shop I contacted told me that the threads are "special" and that they 
would have to spend $200.00 on tooling before making the first part. 
That puts the cost out of our reach for the relatively small quantity 
we could use locally.

I suppose I could modify the plastic handle by drilling a few 1/8 inch 
holes to add additional opportunities for vending the gas. The problem 
is, if I modify the handle and it explodes again, I will be in a 
position of having to prove that my modifications did not weaken the 
handle and cause the explosion.

As it currently stands, we have contacted the national distributor and 
requested that they notify the factory of the potential problems and 
need for a solution. I will begin using the Party Star again while we 
wait, but will wear heavy leather work gloves and make sure everyone is 
out of the room when seating a new cartridge.

If you have a Party Star, or plan on getting one, I suggest you give 
some serious thought to the potential danger and I hope that you ask 
your local supplier to join in lobbying the distributor and 
manufacturer for a safer system. If you have had a similar experience, 
or have any comments that you would like to see reach the national 
distributor, please EMail me with the details.

Thanks,
Paul Gibson
PSG at ix.netcom.com


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Date: Wed, 19 Apr 95 16:07:10 CDT
From: SCHWAB_BRYAN at CCMAIL.ncsc.navy.mil
Subject: Mixing of Malts??

     
     Hey fellow Brewers, Help me out on this if you would, it seems that I 
     during my last brew session, I took: 
     5# of British 2 row
     5# of German Pilsner
     1# Wheat
     1# Vienna Malt
     1/2 oz Cara-Pils
     3/4 oz Special B
     and added them all together during the 90 min Mash.  After 35min at 
     125, up the temp to 151 for the balance of 90 min without a true 
     conversion according to the idodine test.  I went ahead and sparged 
     anyway, SLOWLY, VERY SLOWLY, and boiled for another 75 min with 
     Malto-dextrin, (Gypsum was added during the strike water=1 tblsp)and 2 
     oz Fuggles and N. Brewer Hops, Irish Moss added at last 15 of boil.
     
     Results without ever considering to take a gravity check before during 
     or last night when bottling, was a REDDISH-COPPER, Crisp clean, CLEAR, 
     mellow Hop Aroma brew looking for a CLasification.
     I normally tend to stay within recipes, class requirements with the 
     STOUTS, PORTERS, SPECIALITY Brews that I have made in the past, but 
     now I am lurking here with my Head up my *** and nowhere to go!
     
     TIA
     Bryan                           "AS YOU IMAGINE YOURSELF TO BE -
                                      SO IN TIME, YOU WILL BECOME"
     SCHWAB_BRYAN at CCMAIL.NCSC.NAVY.MIL      


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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 08:11:41 -0500 (EST)
From: david lawrence shea <dshea at indiana.edu>
Subject: RE: Lack of Hop Aroma

Scott wrote about the lack of hop aroma in his beers:

It sounds if your doing everything correctly, but perhaps you should try 
using different hops to measure the effectiveness of your technique.  I 
noticed in your recipe you used only East Kent Goldings for flavor/aroma.  
My own experience has been that using Cascades, Willamette and Tettnanger 
give off lots of hop aroma, but when I use EKG, I notice very little 
aroma and flavor.  I recently posted about my frustration in my attempts 
to brew a good english pale ale using EKG and I got a couple of private 
messages sharing the same experience, although there were one or two that 
forwarded successful recipes.

David L. Shea
Indiana University
dshea at ucs.indiana.edu


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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 08:12:40 -0600
From: flemingk at usa.net (Kirk R Fleming)
Subject: HBD Subscriber Drop Robot

rlarsen at squeaky.free.org (Rich Larsen) asks:

>Why am I dropped every so often from the subscription list? 
>I was dropped in January and again last week.

Rich, that's just the proper operation of the new HBD filter
system recently installed.  I'm sure you've been keeping up with
the thread re: HBD contributions vs HBD contributors, and the
increased interest in who contributes what.  Recently, the decision
was made to install an HBD robot to track not only an HBD reader's
contribution frequency, but also the "S/N ratio" of his/her contributions.

Applying recent advances in AI and by developing a rule-based algorithm,
points are awarded for high S/N messages.  For example, if someone writes
in asking "Will my beer be okay?", and someone responds with "Be patient.
Taste it.", the responder's S/N is somewhere around 95dB, and said
responder is awarded some number of points.

Flames, long rants about Jack, etc., are clocked in with very low S/N,
and the contributor is actually docked points.  Anyway, based on the
results of this "quality" algorithm, and based on a simple quantity
measure, you accumulate a "Digest Worthiness Rating", or DWR, for the
quarter.  The quantity-quality numbers are put together so low
frequency AND low to med S/N postings cost/earn just a few points.
High frequency AND high S/N earn a good deal of points, and high frequency, low
S/N *cost* you bigtime.

If, at the end of the calendar quarter, your DWR is below a certain
minimum, you're dropped from distribution.  Notice how you are getting
dropped about once a quarter?  (As always, you can use beer to 
negotiate for a higher DWR.)

For example, after posting this message, I'll be (further) in the 
hole than I was.  I almost always just ask questions (stupid ones, 
too), and when I *do* contribute, it's a 10dB'er.  I have my 
SUBSCRIBE request msg ready to go...
Kirk R Fleming
Colorado Springs
flemingk at usa.net


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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 09:44:05 -0500
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Molarity

Bill Sutton writes:

>I recently got Dr. Fix's _Principles of Brewing Science_ and got very
>confused by the first set of conversions.
>
>On (page 18? I'm at work, so I don't have it in front of me), Dr. Fix
>states that:

>   [x] * GMW(x) * 10^3 = concentration of x in mg/l

>where [x] is molarity of x, GMW(x) is Gram Molecular Weight of x.

>In a following example, he shows that a .001 M solution of HCO3 would thus
>have a concentration of:
>
>   .001 * 61 * 10^3 = 61 mg/l
>
>We want to express this as concentration of CaCO3, so we substitute the
>GMW of CaCO3 in the equation, giving:

>   .001 * 100 * 10^3 = 100 mg/l as CaCO3

>This is all fine and dandy and makes sense. However, the very next
>statement says that in general:
>
>   [x] * 10^3 = concentration of x in mg/l as CaCO3

This is a typo. It should read

     [x]*100*10^3 = concentration of x in mg/l as CaCO3 





>and this equation is used on a later page to show the concentration of 
>OH- and H+ is negligible.

This is a misinterpretation. What was shown was that in most water samples
the concentrations of H+ and OH- ions are orders of magnitude lower than
than HCO- ions, and hence the contributions of the former to alkalinity
can be neglected. This BTW is why it is the mineral content of water that is 
important, and not its pH (except for extreme cases).


>Also (and perhaps this is later in the book, we'll see as soon as I get
>past this mental block), why are we expressing these in terms of CaCO3?
>Is it because CaCO3 is the precipitate we wish to create in order to remove
>the carbonates and their effects, and this number tells us how much CaCO3
>we need to create in order to do this?

The expression of water ions as an equivalent amount of CaCO3 is a 
convention long used in North American. Germans e.g. use different
units. As with most units the rationale for their use is largely
historical.

George Fix



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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 10:47:14 EDT
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: NA beers, Burp and Belch                                         


Thanks to Jim for Beer Talk with Burp and Belch!  We need a little relief
like that (in small doses) once every couple full moons or so.

Wade Wallinger posts and asks about his NA beer:

1) Admittedly without the benefit of tasting, I wonder whether 1/2 ounce of
hops (for bittering), even low alpha and even boiled for only 15 minutes is
overhopped (What??!? Was that the word _over_hopped coming from my fingers?)
for a 1 gallon batch.  I once did a _low_ alcohol beer (1.024 OG) and used a
total of an ounce (I think 1/2 ounce Goldings for the full boil and a 1/2 ounce
of Saaz as a late addition) in a 5 gallon batch.  Sure, the AA% was a bit
higher, and it was a full length boil for a higher U%, but that beer was
slightly overhopped.  Wade's using that 1/2 ounce for one-fifth the volume.

2) This is an off-the-cuff reaction, but it would seem that the only function
the yeast served was for carbonation.  Essentially, it sounds like it didn't
ferment (1.010-->1.009 is quite likely measurement error more than anything
else).  You said there was no activity in the airlock (not surprising), but
what did the _"beer"_ look like?  Was there a krausen (probably not), or did
you have just hopped, sweet water slowly settling and clearing?  Steeping
carapils didn't give you any significant fermentable sugars--that corn sugar
was the most sugar your yeast had to eat the entire time.

Given that you noted a problem with loose sediment, it would seem that the
answer might be to skip the yeast and force-carbonate after the "beer" settles
and clears.

Does that make sense, or am I missing something?

Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace / uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
- ---THE INTERNET: Hardwiring the neurons of the global brain:---
                                      One geek at a time....
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 9:09:03 MDT
From: Norman Pyle <npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM>
Subject: Hop Aroma / Elk Droppings

Scott Bukofsky wrote:

>  I've brewed a great number of extract batches recently, but for the life
>of me I cannot get a good hop aroma in my finished product.  I have tried
>late additions and dry-hopping, but nothing seems to work.  In my most
>recent batch, I used 3 oz of EKG late in the boil (1 oz each at 30, 15 and 5
>minutes from the end), and dry-hopped with another oz of EKG for a week.
>The result: little hop aroma!!
>  Does anyone have any ideas on the causes of this problem?  I am
>careful to avoid aeration, I fill my bottles most of the way up to reduce
>headspace, etc.  Still I am aroma-impaired.

One thing I have noted is that EKG is not a powerful hop in terms of aroma.
The aroma is fine, indeed, but not strong.  If you are looking for aroma,
forget about the 30 minute addition and the 15 minute addition.  These are
not what I would call "late additions".  Actually the way I'd brew that beer
is to bitter it as you like, then add 1 oz. at 15 minutes for a "flavor"
addition, 2 oz. at flame knockoff (0 minutes), and do a quick chill (keep the
lid on the kettle during chilling).  1 more oz. dry hopped *in the
secondary* should round it out.  This won't, IMO, give it *huge* aroma, but
should help it out quite a bit.  I've heard of people dry hopping with 2 or
more ounces of EKG, but I wouldn't try that with many other hops.

**

Andy Kligerman mentions that Elk Mountain Ale (I assume you mean the amber
ale) was pretty good.  I had one and thought it was pretty drinkable, so I
tried their Elk Mountain Red.  Don't.  It is great American swill, and nothing
else.  Rotgut.  I have to go now and brush my tongue.

Norm

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Date: 20 Apr 95 11:28:06 EDT
From: Dean Pulsifer <aic8882 at lexmark.com>
Subject: Dry vs. Liquid, Fruity, Water & Extract, Wort Chiller, Aeration

In HBD 1706 Todd Miller asks about Extract brewing and Dry vs. Liquid yeast.
Yeast in general has a very dramatic affect on flavor.  I have switched to 
liquid yeast only for consistency and improvement of flavor.  I have had off 
flavors that I attributed to dry yeasts.  I am a confirmed extract brewer who 
does partial boils and a wort chiller.  I just bottled a batch last night that 
had liquid yeast and my first use of the wort chiller and it was much cleaner 
and flavorful than most of my previous batches (mostly dry yeast).

  Wyeast 1056 (American Ale): I just brewed a batch that was very fruity (see 
above) which can be typical of ale yeasts, but not particularly to my liking.  
It was fermenting at 65 - 70 degrees, but it got warm here and fermented at 75 
degrees for a couple of days.  I believe this contributes to the fruitiness.  
What ale yeast has the least amount of fruitiness?  (I know I need to keep a 
closer eye on the temperature in the future.)  I tasted some imports that were 
very fruity so I consider this batch a success even though it will not be one 
of my favorites.  Maybe I need to brew steam beers since I am still working on 
my lagering fridge.

  My feeling from the discussions on water chemistry imply that the pH is not 
important for extract brewing and that only things that affect hop bitterness 
(excess sulphates, etc) are important.  Any comments?  Let's keep the extract 
brewing discussions going.  As homebrewing becomes more mainstream, the extract 
brewing ranks will swell more than the all grain ranks.  I can hardly find the 
time/money to do extract brewing between the kids/sports/lawn, etc., but I like 
good beer.

  Someone asked about how to build a wort chiller.  Buy 25 feet of 3/8" O.D. 
soft copper tubing.  Take a kitchen pot (smaller than brew kettle) and coil it 
around it.  20 minutes later you have a wort chiller.  Get the wort chiller FAQ 
at FTP.STANFORD.EDU.

  I made an aeration tube by drilling four holes 1/4" to 3/8" above the end of 
a splicing tube.  I got lots of foam and the yeast took me from 1.040 to 1.008 
so I am assuming that I got good aeration.  I reread the HBD posts on this and 
most put the holes farther from the end (1" to 6").  Is the length from the end 
that important? My data indicates that it isn't, but I've only used it once.

  If you made it this far, I thank you for reading.  And now for some flame 
retardant.

If you can't find a nice way to say something, then don't
(it worked for my mother)

  Someone asked about grain to extract.  The answer for this was posted less 
than a month ago.  I believe that it was 1 grain = .9 LME = .7 DME.


Dean A. Pulsifer

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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 10:34:12 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Wit, pH, Jello, Otes.


> From: Any Kligerman

> Has anyone used or tried to use fresh lemon grass in beer possible in place
> of bitter orange in Belgium White beer?

I've used lemon grass in a mead before, and it was excellent.  I would think
it will taste noticably different than bitter orange, but I think you'd end
up with something excellent.  When I brewed a Wit, I used Lime Peel, at the
advice of, uh, someone.  It turned out pretty well, but was missing some of
that 'traditional' flavor.  If you want to brew a real Wit, use the bitter 
orange.  If you want to brew something great that uses some of the same 
juxtaposition as a Wit, try the lemongrass.  (Yes, I mean juxtaposition.)

> From: Louis Gordon 

> 1) I use PH paper. After I dip the paper into the liquid, it takes about 
> 2 seconds for the liquid to satuate the paper and a color to settle in. 
> However, if I then hold the paper for another 10 seconds, it slowly turns 
> redder and redder indicating a higher PH number. Is the actual PH the 
> initial reading.

Are you literally "holding" the paper?  If so, you might be getting some 
oils from your fingers in there. 

> From: hbush at pppl.gov (harry)
> Subject: Re: Gelatin and Denaturing
> 
>         Just one more request from someone who always thought that
> denaturing was a euphemism for circumcision: Does all this organic
> chemistry change the common wisdom, or is the rule still not to boil the
> gelatin but to dissolve it into warm water instead?

Okay, to settle the issue once and for all (open cheek, insert tongue) 
I'm going to do an experiment next time I bottle.  I'll split the batch, 
and do half with dissolving the gelatin in warm water, and half with 
boiled gelatin.  I don't care whether boiling castrates the gelatin or if 
it's just a misnomer, I want to know what it does in terms of my brewing.
It'll probably be this weekend.

> From: dadams at wellfleet.com (Dave Adams)
> Subject: What are steel-cut oats ?

It's oats that have been cut by steel.  Seriously, you can get these in
the bulk grains section of any decent health food store, but I doubt 
you'll find them in a regular supermarket.  (A hypermarket, maybe.)

Steel cut oats have NOT been gelatinized, and are not flaked, and will 
appear different than flaked oats.  I have been lead to believe that 
they will make sparging and mashing more difficult than flaked oats, and
make require pre-boiling to gelatinize the starches.  I would just use
regular flaked oats or oatmeal, but maybe someone else knows a reason
to use steel cut oats over flakes.  Anyone?

 -R

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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 11:50:03 EDT
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: RE: Mash-Lauter Tun Question


Hi All,

In HBD#1710, Chip Shabazian asks: 

>I am building an all grain system using Sankey kegs.  I was thinking of
>using a cooler for the Mash/Lauter Tun and had some questions.  I believe
>the 10 Gallon Gott coolers would give me a better grain bed for filtration
>than the standard rectangular coolers, but heard from my local store that
>some people have problems sparging 10 gallon batches in them because the
>grain bed is _too_ thick.  What is the consensus from those of you out there
>using Gott coolers for 10 gallon batches.

   What you heard at your local store is pure rubbish, more hideous
misinformation being dispensed by those who believe opening a homebrew
supply store automatically qualifies them as brewing "experts". *SIGH*
   Before I got my 3 tier gravity fed system, I used a 10 gallon circular
cooler for over 2 years and 50+ batches, with grain bills ranging from 10-
20 pounds of malt. In all that time, I experienced sparging problems exactly
*once*. On that occasion, I was brewing a weizen with 60% wheat malt. Seeking
greater extraction, I made the mistake of running the wheat malt through a
Corona mill twice, ground it way too fine, and ended up with a stuck sparge.
The problem had nothing to do with the cooler or the depth of the grain bed.
   For every other batch I brewed with this setup, the wort ran clear after
just 2-3 quarts of recirculation, and I got 32-33 pts/#/gal doing mostly
single infusion mashes. I brewed several 10 gallon batches using 16#-20# of
grain versus 10# or so for 5 gallon batches. I found the thicker grain bed
seemed to actually *help* filtration, the wort cleared with less recirculation
and ran somewhat clearer for the duration of the sparge than with the 5
gallon batches. Also, I had to use a hose clamp on the hose carrying wort to
the brewpot to *slow down* the runoff rate, the wort would run as fast as I
allowed.
   I realize that it's easy to blame the equipment when things don't go well,
but I humbly suggest that those who claim they can't sparge 10 gallon batches
in a 10 gallon cylindrical cooler because the grain bed is too thick need to
re-examine their sparging procedure.

>What about comments on different types of filters, the two I am
>aware of are copper pipes with cuts every 1/4 inch, and screens (either
>commercial or homemade).  Has anyone tried both different types of filters?
> Which one was more effective?

   I built a circular manifold from a 10' length of 3/8" soft copper tubing.
I used one of those tubing bender tools that looks like a big spring to form
the copper into a tight coil, then drilled 1/16" holes in it every 3/4" or
so. The coil laid flat in the bottom of the cooler, with the holes facing
down. Minimal recirculation required to clear the runoff, high extraction
efficiency and speed of sparging, this simple combination of cylindrical
cooler and copper manifold worked *great*. 

           Cheers,
            Jim               dipalma at sky.com

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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 11:04:08 -0500
From: breworks at appsmiths.com (Harold LaRoux)
Subject: Transfer from commercial keg to corny keg

Pat Babcock <pbabcock at oeonline.com> (in HBD#1710) responding to a question
about transfering from a commercial keg to a corny keg (in HBD#1708) wrote...

>connect the oulet of your commie keg to the inlet 
>of your cornie (one at a time, please!) , apply pressure (CO2 
>preferably) to the commie, and occasionally vent the cornie.

You should connect to the "OUTLET" of your corny instead of the inlet. This
will fill the keg from the bottom up to cut down on any foaming/aeration
caused by dropping the beer from the top of the corny keg. Also (maybe more
importantly), this will save you from getting a face full of beer when you
try to vent from the outlet side.

Harold LaRoux
Brew Works - Houston


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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 08:46:38 CST  
From: "David Sapsis" <dbsapsis at nature.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: dark grains again/beer talk

Norm's recent comments about possible scenarios in which adding dark grains
late in the mash raised some intersting points -- ones that I had not
thought of in my original post.  Yes, I so think small additions of very dark
grain can be used for acid adjustment, but this raises the rationale for why
not simply do it through the whole mash period, since you will be getting
extract from the dark grains no matter, unless the sparge water is highly
alkaline, in which case it would need adjustment anyway (either with acid
or calcium) ?  Is the idea to meter in the dark grains throughout the mash
and sparge to accomplish the pH adjustment?  If so, I'm wondering how much
grain would be neccesarry (obviously depends on native water chemistry).
Those of you with accurate pH meters might be able to shed some light here.

Secondly, and clearly more logical, is the use of dark grains for coloring
only purposes.  As Norm mentions, the Graf-Style Vienna described by Fix and
Fix does indeed advocate late additions of small amounts of black patent
approximately 15 minutes prior to initiating the lauter.  I presume that
this is is to minimize flavor input into the beer.  Norm cites John Palmer's
recent efforts (and successes!) using this program.  I was fortunate enough
to sit on the Best-of-Show panel at the recent World Cup of Beer competition
that included John's Vienna.  Although it was an excellent beer from what I
consider to be a pretty damn challenging style category, there was clearly
some dark malt character making its way into the flavor, subtle but
distinct in a way that only BP can impart, and I believe it was knocked for
this.  What I'm getting at, and I think may have been the origin of this
thread in the first place: Black Patent malt is dangerous stuff.  It is very
easy to overuse it, both as a coloring agent (in Viennas, brown ales, etc.)
as well as a flavoring agent (porters and such).  It has a very concentrated
burnt character to it that can make its way into delicate beers (such as a
Vienna) as well as completely swamp the flavor of more assertive beers
(porters, stouts).

Late additions of BP for, maybe even at the end of
lauter, may prove benefitial in limiting these harsh intrusions into the
finished product.  Some controlled experimentation is called for.  FWIW, I
have found that using  a high Lov roast barlet in lieu of BP has worked well
for me in darkening brown ales.  Although some flavor has come through from
the roast, it is much less sharp than from my experiences using BP.  It
would appear, however, that not all BP is created alike.  Note that the only
dark grain used in Sierra Nevada stout is Black Patent.  Somehow, they are
able to produce a full rounded dark character without the excessive burnt
astringency that one would expect.  It is not quite coffee-like like most
roast barley made stouts, but its a far cry from my attempts using only
black patent for dark grains.  I know that SN gets grains from a variety of
sources, but the stuff they were using last fall was Briess.  Surprising, to
say the least.  But no -- the do not add it at the end of the mash -- it
goes in right at the start with the pale malt.  Any ideas out there?

**************

I can't believe it!  Jim Larson beat me to it!  Me and my sometimes brewing
partner have been planning a click and clack take off for months to put in
our (too often dull) club newsletter.  We were gonna plan on calling it
BeerTalk, with Chaff and Leaf, the StuckSparge Brothers.  Same sort of
irreverence that Jim infused his with (was I the only one laughing out
loud at the Al/Mark confusion?).  My question Jim: is it copywrited?
cheers,
Dave Sapsis

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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 10:11:20 -0700
From: danpack at grape-ape.che.caltech.edu (Dan Pack)
Subject: Re: malt relationships/pH paper


Nigel Townsend writes:

>I have a number of recipes designed for whole grain which I would like to
>try, using dried malt extract.  Now, the question.  Is there a reasonably
>accurate relationship between the amount needed of whole grain, liquid malt
>extract or dried malt extract to obtain a similar result?

I too am an extract brewer so I'm forced to convert recipes often.
IMHO, because in general you don't know the original brewer's yield,
you shouldn't try to convert lbs of grain to lbs of malt extract (dry
or liquid).  But all hope is not lost.  One sign of a good recipe is 
that the OG and FG will be included (another good sign is that the %AA
of the hops and perhaps even an estimate of IBU's are included :-)
So your best bet is to aim for the same OG.  Again, it will vary depending
on you particular brewing practice but a good rule of thumb is
42 pts/(lb/gal) for DME (5 lbs DME in 5 gal will yield OG = 1.042).
The number is slightly lower for LME but I won't make a guess as I
exclusively use DME.  Anyone out there have a good number?  BTW, steeping
specialty grains will add a few points to the OG but this is more
difficult to predict.  A good starting point is maybe 10 pts/(lb/gal)
for crystal malt.

Louis Gordon writes:

>I use PH paper. After I dip the paper into the liquid, it takes about 
>2 seconds for the liquid to satuate the paper and a color to settle in. 
>However, if I then hold the paper for another 10 seconds, it slowly turns 
>redder and redder indicating a higher PH number. Is the actual PH the 
>initial reading.

Proper practice for pH paper is to leave it in the solution until the
color stops changing.  For a weakly buffered solution (such as wort) 
this may take a few seconds.  However, you need to take into account
the color change caused by the color of your beer.  For darker beers 
this can be a problem.  That's the limitation of pH papers.

Good luck,
Dan

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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 10:26:55 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: AHA Conf. Roommate(s) Wanted

I am looking for someone to share a room during the AHA conf. in Baltimore June
14-17. If you are interested or can help me out please contact me via e-mail

Jim
jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu  

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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 13:40:07 CDT
From: Larry Lowe <lnl at apwk01g3.abrfc.noaa.gov>
Subject: yet another first batch story/club
Full-Name: Larry Lowe

  i have, like many other novices, been lurking in the shadows for 
some time. i wanted to see my name in the HBD, so here's my story.

  like many others, i was apprehensive about brewing my first batch.
i thought that i was prepared. whoa, what a mistake. while boiling the
wort, i thought i would read a litle more in my homebrewing bible. i 
was gone just a few minutes when it boiled over, making a mess and losing
valuable ingredients. okay, next i pitch the yeast...i won't embarrass
myself by telling you how "warm" the wort was when i added the yeast.
i decided to press on. i added the cool water to the wort...oops, i added
at least a 1/2 to 1 gallon to much! i take another temperature and my 
floating thermometer sinks!!! i use an unsantitized spoon to dig it out.

  after waiting a day to see if what i already know to be true, i add
a second batch of yeast. when i lift the lid to do this, there is an
inch long bit of MOLD. i remove this and i am quite certain that this
is going to be just one of those learning experiences. at the peak of
fermintation, it was bubbling at the incredible rate of a single bubble
every 3 seconds.  

  since i have wasted enough band width, i won't bother telling you the
fun i had in siphoning/bottling. i was certain this beer was a bust. if
you haven't already guessed, the beer was actually drinkable. my wife
and neighbor actually really like it! couldn't repeat this if i tried.

   the moral of the story is two-fold. 1) if i can brew beer, anyone can.
2) sometimes, even the biggest screw-ups come out o.k.

i am also interested in a homebrew club in Tulsa, OK. are there any? 
if not, does anyone care to start one with me? 
- --
from: Larry N. Lowe
      NOAA, National Weather Service                  "Once upon a time
      Arkansas-Red Basin River Forecast Center         never really happened."
      10159 East 11th St,  Suite 300
      Tulsa, Oklahoma 74128-3050
      lnl at apwk01g3.abrfc.noaa.gov
      Off: (918)832-4109  FAX: (918)832-4101

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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 12:15:36 -0700
From: Mark Ohlstrom <mohlstr at cati.csufresno.edu>
Subject: Sam Adams v. Coors Cutter

Fellow HBD'ers

Last night (Wednesday), Coors kicked off an advertising blitz for its
non-alcoholic product, "Cutter". The commercial compares Cutter to 
Samuel Adams Boston Lager.

A "hidden camera" depicted a blindfolded taster, who declared Cutter
to be better than Sam Adams. Furthermore, the taster stated that
Cutter was like a "microbrewed beer".

I don't know about you, but I am affronted! I wrote a letter to Jim Koch 
expressing my support for the BBC, and I intend to send one to
Coors as well. I suggest that you do the same!

You might also purchase a six-pack of SABL, photocopy the receipt,
and send that with the letter of Coors as well. I am!

Jim Koch and the BBC has been wonderful to both the microbrewing 
and homebrewing community. We should join together and voice
our support for the BBC.

Adolph Coors Co.
Mail # NH475
Golden, CO  80401


BBC's address:

30 Germania St.
Boston, MA  02130

Mark Ohlstrom (mohlstr at cati.csufresno.edu)

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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 16:05:23 -0400
From: David_Arnone at Warren.MentorG.com
Subject: Alcohol Labeling on Commercial Beer


According to the front page of today's Wall Street Journal (4/20/95):

	"The Supreme Court ruled that alcoholic content can be shown
	 on beer labels, striking down a 60 year old ban.  Brewers
	 said they are weighing changes in labeling and marketing."

Reading the rest of the article reminded me of just how "prohibitionist"
our government has been and still continues to be.  It also gave shed
light onto how the Big Three beer makers (not to be mentioned by me...)
control the tastes of America.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ David J. Arnone                      Mentor Graphics Corporation +
+ dja at warren.mentorg.com               15 Independence Boulevard   +
+ Telephone: 1.908.604.0923            Warren,  New Jersey 07059   +
+ Fax: 1.908.580.0820 (3rd Floor)      Main Fax: 1.908.580.1906    +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 15:17:00 -0400 (CDT)
From: Rob Reed <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: Late Hops / Brown vs. Green Bottles / Protein Break in Extracts


Scott Bukofsky <sjb8052 at minerva.cis.yale.edu> writes:

>   I've brewed a great number of extract batches recently, but for the life 
> of me I cannot get a good hop aroma in my finished product.  I have tried 
> late additions and dry-hopping, but nothing seems to work.  In my most 
> recent batch, I used 3 oz of EKG late in the boil (1 oz each at 30, 15 and 5 
> minutes from the end), and dry-hopped with another oz of EKG for a week.  
> The result: little hop aroma!!

IMO the 30 min. and 15 min. hop addition won't give you significant hop
aroma.  I'd suggest a 1-1.5oz addition at 10 min. and a 2oz. addition
at 1-2 minutes using *pellets*.  I feel pellets give you a more intense
hop aroma as the lupulin glands have been bursted during pelletization.  I
feel if *very* fresh whole hops are used, excellent results can be obtained.
I also realize that the pellets vs. whole is a polarizing issue along
the lines of immersion vs. CF, plastic vs. glass, and the proper
pronunciation of trub :{)

Also, if you are using a CF chiller, I feel some of the effects of late
hops are lost during the time spent waiting for trub to settle, prior to 
chilling.  I have been able to overcome this by adding hops during the 
chilling period (my kettle has a strainer to keep hops out of the chiller).  
Obviously a hop back would also work.  


 "Alan R. Burdette" <aburdett at indiana.edu> writes:

> The recent talk about beer bottle glass has raised a question in my mind:
> Is there any meaningful difference between the light protection
> offered by a green vs. a brown glass bottle?

Zymurgy did an article several years ago on the effects of light on
hop compounds and from what I remember, the wavelength of light that
interacts with hop compounds to form mercaptans was effectively filtered 
out by brown glass, but not green (within reasonable time limits).


"Patrick G. (Pat) Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com> writes:
> Subject:       Break in All-grain vs extract/re-kegging/typos
> 
> in HBD 1708...
> 
> >> MMMST40 at vms.cis.pitt.edu asks about extra break from all-grain/mixed 
> >>batches vs extract only...
> 
> Keep in mind that an extract is just an all-grain batch that has been 
> condensed/concentrated.  The break material has been removed by the 
> manufacturer.  Due to this, I would expect partial/all-grain batches 
> to always generate more break material than similar extract-only 
> batches.

This has not been my experience with malt extracts and all-grain
batches.  I have brewed with numerous quality malt extracts and I always
get a fairly large amount of break material.  I usually start seeing
hot break formation in extract batches prior to achieving boiling 
temperatures.

If some manufacturers remove both hot and cold break, wouldn't this
require more energy, that is, to cool the wort prior to vacuum 
evaporation?  I don't know if break is intentionally removed, but beers
I've made from extract only have considerable hot and cold break.

Cheers,

Rob Reed

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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 16:44:24 PDT
From: Rob Emenecker <robe at cadmus.com>
Subject: dropped from list!

To all:

I have noticed several posts from people mentioning that they were dropped 
from the list last week. I had the same experience (some of you received e-
mail from me asking if you received issues or not). I sent e-mail to Rob
Gardner and he said that my address was not on the mailing list??!?!?!?!?!?
I missed 1706, 1707 & 1708, which I ended up downloading from the Bacchus
forum on CI$.

What's the story here!!!!!!

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
:  "There are only two things in life that                         oooooo    :
:   we can ever be certain of...                                 _oooooooo   :
:                      ...taxes and beer!"                      /_|  oooooo  :
:   Cheers,                                                    // |    ooo   :
:   Rob Emenecker                                              \\_|   oo |   :
:   remenecker at cadmus.com (Rob Emenecker)                       \_|     o|   :
:   Cadmus Journal Services, Inc.                                 |______|   :
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+




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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 15:09:19 -0600 (MDT)
From: daryl kalenchuk <dkkalenc at cadesm19.eng.utah.edu>
Subject: The carboy that almost blew.

	Two days ago I transferred a batch from my primary to secondary, a
glass carboy.  Six hours later I returned to find that my air lock had
blown apart and blow off was now coming out of the remaining piece. 
	There was nothing unusual about the batch before this incident. 
It is a very basic wheat extract (6 lbs) using Wyeast white(what ever).  A
earlier posting in HBD mentioned bizarre behavior with this yeast, and
it's my first time using it, is it something with the yeast or have do I
have my first contaminated batch?  I used a starter and noticed vigorous
activity in under 12 hrs which continued for a day or two then decreased
after five days to 4-5 bubbles/min. so I transferred it. After the 12 hrs I
saw a large amount of bubbles lacing up the side of the carboy and a
continual stream of krausen boiling out. I removed the air lock and
covered with a plastic bag and watch it boil over for the next 24 hrs
after which I was able to replace the air lock. 
	If anyone has an explanation please let me know. 

				Thanks
				Daryl Kalenchuk

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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 17:20:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: DALLEN at LANDO.HNS.COM
Subject: Malted Barley Sprouts



In response to the discussion on growing barley from malted barley, I'm 
beginning to believe that it is possible. The following probably comes as 
no surprise to those in the malting industry. I added 100 grains of
malted barley to several test tubes with paper towels and water.
Within five days 25% had sprouted.

As to whether they could survive being cracked, mashed and sparged is
another question. But they may be able to survive the latter two steps
if they were not cracked open.

The malted barley used was "Briess Pale 2 row"

 -Dave

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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 14:19 PDT
From: Robert_Anderson at mindlink.bc.ca
Subject: archives - how to read them!


>CGEDEN at  asks: <<<<<<<<<<
>Does this PBS of homebrewing archive its postings somewhere where we
>proles can read them?  Or do you need the secret decoder ring to translate
>them?>>>>>>>>>
>PatrickM50 replies:
>Re-read (or read!) the info at the beginning of every HBD.  It's that longish
>bit of text that you zip by on your way to the first posting.

That longish bit of text doesn't point that the archives are saved as .z 
files. Along with several(?) others I was recently accidentally de-listed 
from HBD and was forced to go searching for my daily fix of brewerama. I had 
missed 3 digests before I got onto rec.crafts.brewing and realised I wasn't 
alone in being dropped. Then off to Stanford to pick up the ones I had 
missed and the problem of .z files. My local server had only one utility 
suitable for expanding .z files - it's a zip file called COMP430D.zip and 
doesn't work in windows, only ms-dos, and has lousy documentation. With all 
the files in one directory, .z files and COMP430D.exe, type the command: 
COMP430D -d *.z
Note spaces! This will expand the files without extentions so you will have 
to rename them. Good luck!

Robert Anderson. Brewer of fine Edinburgh ales. Nemo me impune lacessit. 


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1712, 04/22/95