FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Late hops/PBS?/HBD drops (David Draper)
  rye ("Wallinger, W. A.")
  Glass color (Ed Westemeier)
  No Digest? (Chris Strickland)
  Re: Handling crushed grains and Purging with CO2 ("Troy Howard" )
  Semantics (Jack Schmidling)
  Archives (WillisCPC)
  Green vs. Brown Glass (Philip Gravel)
  Conc. as CaCO3 (A. J. deLange)
  faux fruit beers? (Jason Michael W C Wong)
  Re: Graham Wheeler (I.J.Normington)
  gout and lead (Btalk)
  1995 MAZER CUP ("Daniel S McConnell")
  Re: Sweet Gale A.K.A. ("Rod Poujade")
  Re: #2(2) Homebrew Digest #17... (Anatum)
  Black Dog Ale (Dale Moore)
  RE: Venturi Vs. Bernoulli ("Keith Royster")
  Fruit Beers (Cheating) (MR PETER E MISIASZEK)
  Ack!  First bad batch! (DICKERSONP)
  Homebrew Digest #1709 (April 19, 1995) ("Joseph Zabder")
  Boil, Blab (Russell Mast)
  infection... yeah or nay! (Rob Emenecker)
  NA Beer ("  Dave Silver")
  New Digest (molloy)
  Firsters' All Grain analysis ("Palmer.John")
  supplies/pubs in KC area? (Jason Sloan)
  Lazy first stab at wine. (Jason Sloan)
  Samuel Smiths Pale Ale ("Harrington, Stephen J")
  Copper Boiling Kettles (Wseliger)
  Re: archives - how to read them! (Carl Etnier)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 07:37:24 +1000 (EST)
From: David Draper <ddraper at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Late hops/PBS?/HBD drops

Dear Friends, got some comments on things in #1710.

Scott Bukofsky is having trouble getting good hop aroma from his late 
additions.  Scott, I had similar problems with the same kind of addition 
schedule you report.  After tasting an excellent American pale ale made 
by Andy Walsh, I adopted his procedure, which was to do *very* late 
additions--like at 10 and 2 minutes, rather than 30 and 10.  Nowadays, 
when I am going for big hop nose, I do additions at 10 and 2 minutes 
plus dry hop.  Example: for a recent 23-litre US style pale, I used all 
Cascades pellets as follows: 50 gr for 60 min, 40 gr for 10, 40 gr for 2, 
then upon racking to secondary added 50 gr for a 9-day secondary (OG 
1050, FG 1010).  Got good comments on hop character at last night's club 
tasting.

Pat Maloney I think misinterpreted Chris Geden's question about whether 
the so-called PBS has archives available.  He was asking about the Jay 
Hersh page, and not the HBD archives, am I right?

Rich Larsen asked about getting dropped from the mailing list.  This 
happened to me last week, and to several others with whom I've been in 
touch.  I ended up having to resubscribe to get back on.  Perhaps it has 
something to do with Rob's recently added header banner about service 
providers--in my case, my system assigns an alias 
(david.draper at mq.edu.au) to my more cumbersome "real" address, and it may 
be that having two addresses associated with my name got into Rob's 
attempt to weed out the requests he mentioned in that banner.  Just a 
wild guess.  In other news, the hiatus at the stanford archive site was 
short lived, all appears to be back to normal.

I for one enjoyed the Belch and Burp Show--nice chuckle in the morning.

Cheers, Dave in Sydney
- --
"Why am I typing when I could be brewing?" ---Gary Bell
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper, School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, NSW 2109
Sydney, Australia. email: david.draper at mq.edu.au fax: +61-2-850-8428
             ....I'm not from here, I just live here....

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Date: 20 Apr 1995 15:40:15 PDT
From: "Wallinger, W. A." <WAWA at chevron.com>
Subject: rye


From: Wallinger, W. A. (Wade)
To:  OPEN ADDRESSING SERVI-OPENADDR
Subject:  rye
Date: 1995-04-20 17:28
Priority:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


chuck m asked about rye recipes, and i thought i'd share my experiment with
the rest of you. this was my first attempt at using rye, and had no idea
what flavor it would impart. here is the recipe for the rye pale ale (which
i called 'ryp ale'):

1.0# pale malt
1.0# rye
(mashed these at 150f for 75min, with 170f mashout)
3.3# northwestern gold extract
1.5# rice extract (the powdered stuff)
1.0oz northern brewer (6.9% alpha, 60min)
1.0oz kent golding (6.0%, steep at end of boil)
1/2tsp irish moss with 10 mins left to boil
wyeast british ale yeast

my intent was to brew a relatively dry version of a pale ale in order to
find out just what flavor the rye might contribute. i really like this beer.
it's quite light. it has what i call an earthy bitterness, which i attribute
to the rye (gives it some pizazz).

chuck referred to one source that called for 60% rye and used a weisse
yeast. i can't imagine what that would taste like. perhaps it's time for
another experiment.


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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 18:58:32 -0400
From: hopfen at iac.net (Ed Westemeier)
Subject: Glass color

Alan Burdette asked:
> Is there any meaningful difference between the light protection
> offered by a green vs. a brown glass bottle?


In a word, No.

Green bottles provide essentially no more protection than clear
bottles for the wavelengths that do the harm.

Brown bottles provide substantially more protection, but NOT
perfect protection. When I conduct my Dr. Beer seminars, I use
unopened brown bottles of megabrew that have sat in a sunny window
of my house for a week. The skunky odor that issues forth when the
bottle is opened is unmistakeable, and a very impressive demonstration.


******************************
*   Ed Westemeier            *
*   Cincinnati, Ohio         *
*   E-mail: hopfen at iac.net   *
*   Phone: (513) 321-2023    *
******************************



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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 19:50:24 -0400
From: cstrick at iu.net (Chris Strickland)
Subject: No Digest?

Have I been dumped somehow, or has the digest not been produced for the last 
two days?  If the digest is still working, could someone send me an email 
with the subscription address.

Thanks.
- --------------
Chris Strickland
cstrick at iu.net


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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 16:00:24 PDT
From: "Troy Howard" <troy at oculus.jsei.ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: Handling crushed grains and Purging with CO2

On handling crushed grains, Louis Gordon <lougord at execpc.com> asks:

>2) I use a corona mill for cracking my grain. I always get a small amount 
>of flour with the cracked grain from grain that was crushed. I then shake 
>this grain in a mesh strainer over the garbage can to get rid of the very 
>fine crush. My question is whether I am gaining anything by getting rid 
>of this finely crushed grain.

I assume that the fine crush consists of both powdered husk material and 
powdered endosperm (starch).  If this is the case, then you are potentially 
avoiding tannins leaching from the powdered husk.  Exessive powder has also been
reported to lead to stuck sparges, so you may be avoiding this problem as well. 
However, you would also be losing potential extract from the powdered endosperm.

I also use a corona to crack my grain, and I also get a little flour.  It's 
probably unavoidable.  But I just go ahead and dump it all in my mash.  I have 
never had any problems with a stuck sparge or with tannin extraction.  These are
the only two _potential_ problems I can think of off hand associated with flour.
I'm sure someone will come up with others.

- -----
On purging with CO2, several people have commented on this, most lately being 
Lance Stronk <S29033%SOA.decnet at oscar.sea.sikorsky.com>, saying (in part)

>Then, I purge the air from the keg by
>putting CO2 into it empty - I say purged but actually I want a layer of CO2
>between the beer and the air trapped above it.  Since CO2 is heavier than air
>this happens automatically.

It's actually not so automatic as it might seem.  Air and CO2 _will_ mix.  The 
following is probably obvious, but. . .

To get the most air out of a container with the least CO2, you should take care 
not to introduce turbulence when introducing the CO2.  Turbulence will cause air
to mix with the entering CO2 and defeat your purpose.  I would recommend gently 
introducing the CO2 into the very bottom-most part of the container until at 
least a volume has been displaced (when I used to work for a defense contractor,
we used to use a target value of 5 volumes when we built argon candles, but 
then, air contamination was a much bigger issue).  There will inevitably be some
mixing anyway, but the important thing is to dilute the air in the vessel to 
unimportant levels.

Like I said, it's probably obvious.  Just my $0.02.


Cheers,

 -Troy


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Troy Howard                       | Live fast, die young, and leave a good
troy at oculus.jsei.ucla.edu         | looking corpse.
Jules Stein Eye Institue,  UCLA   | 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 21:40 CDT
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Semantics

 
 >From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
 >Subject: Re: Gelatin
 
 <In HBD 1707, Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu> said:
 
 > HBD 1705 was full of comments about gelatin, most of them emphasizing
 > that it should not be boiled "because it gets denatured".
 >
 > Reality check, please! Folks, that is utter poppycock! Gelatin _is_
 > denatured protein: "Denaturation of collagen is the conversion of the
 > rigidly coiled helix to a random coil called gelatin." (Merck Index
 > 11th ed.)
 
 <Sheesh!  Mea culpa!  Did you hear my hand slap my forehead all the way
 back in NY?....
 
 Talk about missing the point.....  I thought I would learn something useful 
 from this thread and all I got was semantics.  To most folks (and one of many 
 definitions in the dictionary) denature means to render unfit for use.
 I have never heard the term used in connection with gelatine but have read 
 many times that it should not be boiled.  I have also always heard that it 
 should always be disolved in cold water.  I do this and then raise to 170F to 
 pasturize it.  Now, may I conclude from the above that boiling does not 
 "render unfit for use" as I intend to use it or simply that it will not be 
 "denatured", whatever that means?
 
 js

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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 23:08:30 -0400
From: WillisCPC at aol.com
Subject: Archives

Help!
Being recently unceramoniously dropped from the mailing list I called upon
the archives to fill in my missing issues. Using ftp.stanford.edu in the
/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer/digest directory I found my missing volumes but they
are in a format I cannot read ("z files"). What do I need to read these
files? Can anybody out there help me?
Private E-Mail please so I don't miss the answer.
Thank you.

Gregg Willis
Willis CPC at aol.com

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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 95 23:18 CDT
From: pgravel at mcs.com (Philip Gravel)
Subject: Green vs. Brown Glass


===> "Alan R. Burdette asks about green and brown glass bottles

>The recent talk about beer bottle glass has raised a question in my mind:
>Is there any meaningful difference between the light protection
>offered by a green vs. a brown glass bottle?

Yes.  A brown bottle is much more effective in block the wavelengths of
like that can lead to skunking.  Green glass is only marginally more
effective than clear glass.

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel   Lisle, Illinois               pgravel at mcs.com

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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 20:39:10 -0500
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Conc. as CaCO3

In #1710 Bill Sutton was puzzled by an apparent inconsistency in
Principals of Brewing Science by George Fix with respect to water
chemistry. In particular Fix defines mg/l as CaCO3 by
1000*100*moles/litre of whatever substance is being converted to
these units (p15) and then calls 1.e-6 moles/l hydronium ion 0.001
ppm as CaCO3 on p17. I agree with Bill that something is funny.
It should be 1000*100*1.e-6 = 0.1 ppm as CaCO3 i.e 1.e5 times the
molarity. I think it must be a misprint.

Another question concerns why ion concentrations are specified in
mg/l as CaCO3. This is really arbitrary but I suspect that the
practice was started because:
  1. CaCO3 has a molecular weight of 100 which makes it very easy to
     convert moles per litre to mg/l as CaCO3 (just multiply by 1.e5)
  2. In the pH range normally found in drinking/brewing water most of
     the dissolved carbonate has been converted to bicarbonate so that
     if, for example, 203.7 mg of CaCO3 were dissolved per litre of
     water resulting in a pH of 8 (the water would have had to have been
     substantially acidified first) the result would be 198 mg/l
     bicarbonate as CaCO3 and the alkalinity 200 mg/l as CaCO3. Thus
     the alkalinity as CaCO3 is an approximation to the amount of
     CaCO3 actually dissolved where the alkalinity is due to calcite
     alone.
  3. By dividing the alkalinity as CaCO3 by 1.e5 one quickly gets the
     approximate moles per litre hydronium required to "neutralize"
     the alkalinity. For the example just given 198/1.e5 = 0.00198
     moles/litre hydronium.

The example numbers correspond to Fix's example of alkalinity 200 mg/l
at pH 8. Let us work this example through in the hope of increasing
insight.

Definine the ratios r1 = 10^(pH - pK1) and r2 = 10^(pH - pK2) where pH
is the pH of the raw water, pK1 =  6.38 and pK2 = 10.32. In the example
the starting pH is 8 so r1 = 10^(8 - 6.38) = 41.6869 and
r2 = 10^(8 - 10.32) = .004786. r1 is the ratio of bicarbonate to
carbonic concentration and r2 the ratio of carbonate to bicarbonate
concentration. Thus if there are x moles/l carbonic there are r1*x moles
bicarbonate and r1*r2*x moles/l of carbonate. The total of the concentrations
of all three species is (1 + r1 + r1*r2)x. The fraction of the total which
is carbonic is 1/(1 + r1 + r1*r2) = 2.33%; the fraction which is bicarbonate
is r1/(1 + r1 + r1*r2) = 97.2% and the fraction which is carbonate is
r1*r2/(1 + r1 + r1*r2) = 0.46%. Thus the most common species is
bicarbonate ion. The same relationships apply if x is expressed in mg/l
as CaCO3.

Carbonic does not contribute to alkalinity so that the total alkalinity
is (using Fix's definition - p15) 41.6869*x + 2*41.6869*.004786*x + .1
= 200 i.e the concentration of bicarbonate plus twice the concentration
of carbonate plus the concentration of hydroxyl (minus the concentration
of hydronium which is unappreciable at 0.001). Thus x = 4.7498 mg/l as
CaCO3. Then the bicarbonate is 41.6869*4.7498 = 198.00 and the carbonate
41.6869*.004786*4.7498 = 0.9476, (and the total = 203.7). From this it
is clear that the majority of the alkalinity is due to the bicarbonate
ion in this pH range.

Fix's definition of alkalinity implies that all carbonate and bicarbonate
will be converted to carbonic. At pH 4.3 the mole fraction of bicarbonate
is a little less than 1% and of carbonate about 1e-6% thus pH 4.3 closely
represents the condition of total conversion to carbonic. pH 4.3 is also
the end point of methyl orange which is used as an indicator in measuring
alkalinity by titration with 0.1N HCl. Thus alkalinity measured by that
method and Fix's definition correspond closely.

Conversion of 1 mole of bicarbonate to carbonic requires 1 mole hydronium and
conversion of 1 mole carbonte to carbonic  requires 2 moles hydronium
so that conversion of the example water requires
198*1e-5 + 2*0.9476*1.e-5 = 0.00199 moles/l hydronium which compares very
closely with the number obtained by dividing alkalinity by 1e5.

A.J. deLange   Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel at interramp.com



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Date: 	Fri, 21 Apr 1995 00:10:07 -1000
From: Jason Michael W C Wong <jasonw at uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu>
Subject: faux fruit beers?



I read in the last digest about people who used frozen fruit concentrate 
instead of 'real' fruit. In what quantities? I know the concentrate has 
to be preservative free, but how do I figure out how much to use? I guess 
I could make up a few batches and experiment, but if there are any 
suggestions on where to start, any help would be appreciated. 

My last batch was an apple wheat brew, and for reasons unbeknownst to me, 
the whole lot had ring - o - round the neck. I tried a few new techniques 
that I wasn't entirely familiar with, so I imagine that had a lot to do 
with it. If I could use concentrates, that would eliminate one of the 
possible infection risks, and it would be a lot cheaper! Here in Hawaii, 
just about all domestic fruit is shipped in, and when I'm interested in  
berries, things get expensive.......<sigh>.....that's the price of 
paradise I guess.  :-)


TIA

jas


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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 95 11:37:05 BST
From: I.J.Normington at bnr.co.uk
Subject: Re: Graham Wheeler


Hi,
	In reply to Andy Walsh's comments on Graham Wheelers
books. I'm posting this in support of his books. While his 'technical'
information may be weak, I have found his recipes very good and have
been delighted on many occasions with my brew. 

Andy said: "You will still make very bitter beer with his given
numbers" 

I certainly have not found them overly bitter. In fact, having
recently done a side by side test with his version of "Old Speckled
Hen" and a sample of the real stuff, I think he was spot on. May be
I've just been lucky and have used hops with lower % alpha acids.

Andy said: "So what do you find when you look up his recipe for
Marston's Pedigree? Yep, it's all malt."

Well, this is not true for my copy of "Brew Your Own Real Ale At
Home". Included in the recipe is "800g Maltose syrup (18 %)" -
certainly not all malt be my reckoning. 

Anyway, I would highly recommend "Brew Your Own Real Ale At Home" to
any home-brewer wanting to replicate British real ales. Use your own
methods and hopping rates if you like, but I've followed his methods
and rates, and have never been disappointed with the results.

Cheers,	Ian



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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 08:13:41 -0400
From: Btalk at aol.com
Subject: gout and lead

A friend who is runs the county health dep't lead program told me the story
about gout being caused by lead in Olde Colonial Days.

I found it hard to believe-there is gout in my family. But here's what my
friend told me.  This is the short memory version.
A trade embargo of some sort caused the British to have to drink Spainish and
Portugese wines. Because of longer travel times (to the colonies?), a block
of lead was placed in each keg to stabilize/preserve it. What do you think
the wine's acidity did then?
Apparently at REALLY high lead poisoning levels, gout is one of the side
effects because of kidney damage. Your urine will also turn blue. Man , talk
about being able to write your name in the snow;)
Another side effect of high blood lead levels is dementia , as in insanity. 
If anyone is interested,I'll see if I can get more details and references.
Regards,
Bob Talkiewicz,Binghamton, NY <btalk at aol.com>


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Date: 21 Apr 1995 09:10:54 -0400
From: "Daniel S McConnell" <Daniel_S_McConnell.RSP#u#MAIL at mailgw.surg.med.umich.edu>
Subject: 1995 MAZER CUP

Subject:  1995 MAZER CUP

1995 MAZER CUP MEAD COMPETITION ANNOUNCEMENT
   Tight-edit bandwidth conserving version

ELIGIBILITY:
   All Makers of Mead are eligible. 
ENTRY REQUIREMENTS:
   The usual requirements and rules.  Two *small* bottles.  Please.
WHEN, WHERE, HOW
   All entries will be accepted between Mon. May 8 and Fri. May 19, 1995. 
   First round judging will be held on Fri. May 26 in Ann Arbor, MI
   All qualified mead judges regardless of your affiliation or
politics/poetics
      are invited to attend and judge.  Judges will be fed, clothed, sheltered
      and otherwise treated like Royalty.
AWARDS AND PRIZES:
    The mazers are hand-thrown at the prestigious Pewabic Pottery.
MISC INFORMATION:
    e-mail to Dan McConnell (DanMcC at umich.edu) will get you the unabridged 
       edition of this announcement (or check the Mead Lovers Digest), or a 
       s-mail postable copy of this flyer and entry forms.  Electronic entry 
       forms are highly encouraged!
    I am also serving as an judge contact.  
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==

DanMcC







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Date:          Fri, 21 Apr 1995 09:39:26 EST5EDT
From: "Rod Poujade" <ROD at RESIDENCES.Lan.McGill.CA>
Subject:       Re: Sweet Gale A.K.A.

> So, does anyone know what the heck sweet gale seeds are, what they 
> taste like, and how to acquire some?

    One of the US Beer mags about six months ago (best I can do, it's 
all a blur...) had a brewing with spices issue in which they 
identified Sweet Gale as Bog Myrtle.  Haven't bought it or used it 
myself yet.


Rod Poujade
Montreal, QC

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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 09:52:35 -0400
From: Anatum at aol.com
Subject: Re: #2(2) Homebrew Digest #17...

Hello all,
I am unable to find local, reasonably priced sources for stainless nipples
for my keg conversion project. 
What is the collective wisdom regarding using brass fittings for mash tuns,
sparge water vessels and boilers? I understand that brazing is not kosher,
but what about brass nipples and valves?
Thanks very much for any input.
Greg Tatarian
anatum at aol.com
Petaluma, CA

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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 95 09:00:07 CDT
From: dmoore at adc.com (Dale Moore)
Subject: Black Dog Ale

Hello,

Does anybody know what type of hops are used in Black Dog Ale or,even
better, have a recipe that might be close. I looked through Cat's Meow
and didn't see anything. Private email is fine, TIA.

						Dale

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Date:          Fri, 21 Apr 1995 10:18:57 EST
From: "Keith Royster" <N1EA471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us>
Subject:       RE: Venturi Vs. Bernoulli

********************************************************
**  WARNING: Bernoulli/Venturi discussion to follow.  **
**      Please move on if you couldn't care less!     **
********************************************************

Well, I've been disconnected from my email for about 3 weeks (LAN problems)
so I don't know if this has already been discussed or not.  I've been doing 
some research and some thinking, and here is what I have found.

The original question was, what is the correct name for the observed effect
of air being drawn into a siphoning tube, Venturi or Bernoulli effect.  I 
originally argued that there is no Bernoulli effect, only the Bernoulli 
equation, so it must be the Venturi effect.  Others then correctly pointed 
out that a Venturi meter has a change in diameter of the pipe, so our siphon
tube could not cause a Venturi effect because it is of constant diameter.

Well, guess what, we are both wrong.  It is neither!  Both the Venturi effect
and the Bernoulli effect (yes, I now admit that there is such a thing) have
in their definition that the drop in pressure is caused by the flow (velocity)
of the liquid.  While there may be some drop in pressure due to the flow, the
predominant cause of the lower pressure in the tube is due to the difference
in elevation and is there regardless of whether the liquid is flowing or not.
Thus these two "effects" do not apply to what we are observing!

Mental experiment:  suck some water in a straw and put your thumb over the
top.  Now hold the straw vertical in the air.  Now poke a hole in the side
of the straw near the top.  Air will immediately be drawn in before any 
appreciable flow out of the bottom of the straw begins because of the pull
of the water wanting to fall.  This causes a negative pressure inside the
straw.        _____
             / ___ \    Bernoulli equation:              
            / /   \ \      V=velocity  Z=elevation  P=pressure
|          | |  |  | |     p=density   g=acceleration of gravity
|          | |  |  | |     (V1)^2/2g + Z1 + P1/pg = (V2)^2/2g + Z2 + P2/pg
|__________| |__|  | |     
|          | |  |  | |     Velocity at points 1 & 2 are equal so V's cancel.
|          | |  |  | |     Relative pressure at point 2 is atmospheric so
|               |  |.|(1)  P2 = 0.  Equation reduces to:
|               |  | |     
|_______________|  | |     Z1 + P1/pg = Z2 (notice velocity not a factor)
                   | |     
                   | |     Rearrange:  P1 = (Z2-Z1)pg
                   |.|(2)  Z1 > Z2 so (Z2-Z1) is negative
                    |      
                    V      Thus P1 is negative pressure!!!!

The interesting point of all of this is that the higher up the tube you
place your hole, the greater the pressure difference and thus the more air
will get drawn in (and the better the aeration of your wort!).  I point this
out because I have noticed some people incorrectly stating that the hole 
should be placed close to the exit of the tube, presumably because they feel
the velocity should be faster there?!?  However, do not put the hole BEFORE 
your counter current wort chiller.  Introducing O2 in the hot wort could 
cause hot-side-aeration from what I understand.

  

+------------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
| Keith Royster, E.I.T.        | The law has done its best over a period of  |
| Environmental Engineer       | years to turn beer into something criminal  |
| NC-DEHNR / Air Quality       | and harmful; but the outcome has been that  |
|    (704) 663-1699            | beer has turned sections of the law into    |
| N1EA471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us | something criminal and harmful. - Anonymous |
+------------------------------+---------------------------------------------+


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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 10:29:17 EDT
From: WNXP21A at prodigy.com (MR PETER E MISIASZEK)
Subject: Fruit Beers (Cheating)

- -- [ From: Peter E. Misiaszek * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] --

Re: Michael Lloyds question about "cheating" of fruit beers by using
canned fruit...  I brewed the cranberry-wheat beer from the recent
special ingedients issue of Zymurgy twice using identical ingredients
and process, side-by-side,  except that in one batch I used fresh fruit,
and in the other I used canned.  Both batches turned out fine, but the
canned fruit batch had no discernable fruit flavor.  It did have a
nicer color than the fresh fruit batch.  I farmed out samples to be
tasted blind; most tasters preferred the sample made with fresh fruit,
but this was by no means unanimous.  An interesting observation was
that all of the color leached out of the canned fruit; it ended up snow
white.

Pete Misiaszek, brewing BayBeer in Newport, RI
 


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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 10:56:28 -0400
From: DICKERSONP at aol.com
Subject: Ack!  First bad batch!

I'm sorry to report that this, my third batch, is STUCK!  I made a Palilallia
India Pale Ale from CP's book.  I tried to do everything right on this batch,
after making numerous mistakes on my first two.  Suprisingly, the first two
fermented completely and I'm still enjoying them today. This batch, which I
brewed carefully, avoiding past sins, is stuck at 1.030 (OG=1.057), after one
week in primary, and two weeks in secondary.  Let me outline what I did with
this batch and didn't do previously.

1)  Used an immersion wort chiller for the first time

2) shook the heck out of the carboy before pitching the yeast.  Previously, I
didn't shake at all!!

3) Used Wyeast for the first time, used dry before.

Other than the above, I followed my usual procedure.

I know the usual theories of stuck fermentation, but have debunked most of
them in this case.  First, there is plenty for the yeast to eat, I used 7
pounds of DME.  Secondly, aeration could be a problem, but I aerated MUCH
MORE this time than in the past.  Thirdly, I used Wyeast out of the packet,
technically under-pitching.  However, fermentation started in 12 hours and
was pretty vigorous.  Also, I repitched with DRY yeast last week, in
desperation.  A week later, still sitting at 1.030.  Fourthly, the
temperature has been a very constant 70 F, so there's no chance it's too
cool.  Lastly, the beer smells and tastes great, it's just way too sweet for
an IPA, so there aren't any obvious infections!

Any stuck fermentation theories I'm missing here??  Any hope of un-sticking
this sucker??

================================
Phil Dickerson (dickersonp at aol.com)
Stuck in NC
================================

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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 95 08:52:30 PDT
From: "Joseph Zabder" <JZABDER at BCSC02.GOV.BC.CA>
Subject: Homebrew Digest #1709 (April 19, 1995)

To: HOMEBREW--INTERNET homebrew at hpfcmi.fc

*** Reply to note of 04/19/95 00:10
(RDS) Support Analyst
389-3356
please Un-subcribe this account..
Thanks

JOSEPH
Don't Print It... View it!

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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 11:53:18 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Boil, Blab


> From: Eamonn McKernan <eamonn at rainbow.physics.utoronto.ca>

> Is boiling brewing water worth it?

Yep.  In addition to the chlorine, which may or may not do something funny
to the mash, Toronto probably has lots of bicarb, and that will turn into
carbonate and precipitate with a nice boil.  And that can definately help
during the mash.  I'm a bit fuzzy on the science (I'm a fuzzy guy in 
general), but in terms of ions, the most important boiling/salting is 
going to be of your mash water.

> From: mark evans<evanms at lcac1.loras.edu>

> Just would like to say many thinks to Jim Larsen for his hilarious "Beer
> Talk" parody.  It was one of only a few posts that I read in their
> entirety.  It is refreshing to laugh at ourselves once in a while.  Perhaps
> if we did more, therre would be less negativity... everywhere.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.  I thought it was kind of 
dumb, but I'm not one to post asking people not to "waste" bandwidth.  
If I don't like it, I can skip over it.  (Which I'll probably do next time,
unless I have time to kill.)

 -R

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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 95 14:11:43 PDT
From: Rob Emenecker <robe at cadmus.com>
Subject: infection... yeah or nay!

For the collective wit & wisdom of the digest...

I bottled a batch of "Turtle's Wheat" from CP's Companion last Saturday (4/15).
Last night I decided to see how the carbonation was progressing and popped 2
bottles in the refrigerator.

Before I describe the problem, some background info...

I boiled 1.25c light DME in 0.5 gallon water for 15 minutes. When this solution
was ideally below 150*F I added 1 tbs. gelatin (to help clarify the brew in
the bottle). After gelatin was adequately dissolved, I cooled the solution to
room temp (68*F) by dunking the covered pot into a sink of cold water. After the
priming solution was cool, I poured this into a sanitized bottling bucket (one
of those 6 gallon white plastic pails), then racked the beer from my secondary
(5 gal. glass carboy) into the bottling pail. To rack I use an orange nipple
cap for the carboy with a racking cane inserted through one opening. I force
CO2 into the other opening to start the siphon. (BTW the carboy is elevated 3
feet above the bucket so that gravity can do the work.) The siphon hose is fed
through a hole in the lid of the bottling bucket and rests on the bottom. The
swirling action from the brew entering the bucket has always given me more than
adequate "mixing" with the priming solution.

 .now back to the problem at hand...

I opened one of the cooled bottles and poured into a glass. The very first thing
that I noticed was a nice sounding ppfffsttt (a good sign of early carbonation).
The second thing I saw was that all of the sediment proceeded to drain out into
my glass. (I was under the impression that the gelatin would form a layer on the
bottom of the bottle, effectively trapping sediment under it.) The third item
was that the beer had a slight sour smell (not bitter/tart, but rather pungent).
The taste was rather dull and boring... no great hops, no great wheat or malt
character... it was not like cardboard, it just did not have a distinguished
taste or feel. The last thing that caught my attention was a fine ringlet around
the inside of the neck of the bottle!!!

 .well here is what I need to know...

A--Is the ring around the neck a sign of infection or could it be gelatin 
   solidifying at the surface?
B--Is it too early in the bottle (only 1 week) for the gelatin to set into a 
   film on the bottom?
C--What in the world is that pungent odor (it is not strong or immediately 
   apparent, only after sniffing the beer can you tell it is there)?

TIA!

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
:  "There are only two things in life that                         oooooo    :
:   we can ever be certain of...                                 _oooooooo   :
:                      ...taxes and beer!"                      /_|  oooooo  :
:   Cheers,                                                    // |    ooo   :
:   Rob Emenecker                                              \\_|   oo |   :
:   remenecker at cadmus.com (Rob Emenecker)                       \_|     o|   :
:   Cadmus Journal Services, Inc.                                 |______|   :
:   Linthicum, Maryland 21090                                                :
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+








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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 15:21:20 EDT
From: " Dave Silver" <dave_silver at aep.e-mail.com>
Subject: NA Beer



  Hi, I've been lurking for awhile on the HBD, and have enjoyed reading
it immensely. Recently, the subject of NA beer brewing came up and I
thought I might ask a few questions.

  I'm not currently a brewer, but I would like to give it a try. What's
held me back so far is that I don't drink alcohol. I do enjoy NA beers,
though, and I agree with Wade Wallinger's opinion in a previous post
that generally the European NA beers are better that the American NAs.
The selection is real limited, though, and I thought it might be nice to
try to make my own. I've been hoping I would see something about brewing
NA beers and appreciated the recent posts. (I would have asked myself,
eventually, when I was ready for the time & expense - new home & baby
take precedence right now :)

Keith Frank:

  You said you could send more info to Cheryl Ramsey about your NA
brewing experiences - would you be willing to send it to me also? From
your comments, it sounds like this topic has come up before - can you or
anyone else point me to some archives that might have more info?

  It was mentioned that using the evaporation method, you lose a lot of
water. Couldn't you replace the volume of water that is lost?

Lee C. Bussy:

  I did like the idea of using a vacuum to lower the alcohol boiling
point - it would just be a matter of coming up with the right equipment
and the pressure-temperature curves for alcohol. Did you get any
comments on this?

  In reading Papazian (sp?), he mentions reverse osmosis. Does anyone
know if that kind of equipment would be available to the home brewer?
Even if it were, I imagine that it would probably be prohibitively
expensive.

  I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions anyone may have. I really
want to give this a try. It seems like it would be a lot of fun and
profitable to the palate as well.

Thanks,
Dave
AEP Service Corp, WK/FAX: 614-223-2383/2352
dave_silver at aep.e-mail.com

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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 16:20:06 -0400
From: molloy at tcpcs3.dnet.etn.com
Subject: New Digest

To avoid flamming, the word "beer" will be used several times in the
following text. 

Subscribe to the new "Lb-Ft-Lb" Digest Now!
(beer)
Engage in stimulating (beer) conversations about Lb-Ft vs Ft-Lb and 
let's not forget Ft-Lb vs Lb-Ft. This forum (beer) will help answer many
questions such as:
       1. Why do my head bolts keep coming loose?
       2. What's the conversion of Ft-Lbs to Pie?
       3. Why are my feet POUNDING after work?      (beer)

Did you know (beer) that the Egyptians actually discovered Lb-ft (or was 
it ft-lb) ?  

Subscribe now and learn more then you may ever want to know!
                      (beer)
The first 10 subscribers will recieve a free Torque Wrench!
(to avoid conflict, torque wrench calibrated in newton meters)

Send Subscribe to  lb-ft-lb at isthis.stu.pid

Well, its time to go back to work (or is it torque?)... 

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Date: 21 Apr 1995 14:09:08 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Firsters' All Grain analysis

Jerry described his first All-Grain batch using a rectangular cooler and
manifold. Sounded like a standard system.
 
>I was going for a Liberty Ale type beer (my latest favorite). I know some
>of you out there frown upon recipes in the Digest, but here's mine:
 
>10 lbs (pre-crushed) British 2-row 2.25L
>1  lb  (pre-crushed) crystal - British 2-row 60L
> .5 oz. Eroica (12%)       60 min.
> .5 oz. Centennial  (6.6%) 30 min.
> .5 oz. Williamette (4.5%) 20 min.
>1/2 Tbs. irish moss       15 min. (rehydrated ~6 hrs, small flakes)
> .5 oz. Centennial  (6.6%) 2  min.
> .5 oz. Williamette (4.5%) 2  min. 
>  2 oz. Centennial  (6.6%) dry hop, plugs, 2 weeks? 

The recipe looks good Jerry, I calculate an OG of 1.062 and an IBU of 35.
The only comments I would make would be increase the 30 minute addition of
Centennial to 1 oz for a total of 42 IBUs (40-45 being more in style for an
IPA)
Also, your 2 oz of Centennial for Dry Hopping seems excessive. I would use 1 oz
for the two weeks.
 
Your Mash Temps and pH look good, the 158 initial temp will generate a higher
bodied beer, I would anticipate your FG being 1.012 or so.

I find that the Nylon tubing valves are better for controlling sparge flow, you
might look for one at the brewshop. 
>Oh yeah, I
>meaured the gravity after sparging - 1.049 x 6.2 gallons = 303.8 pts. Do
>I divide this by 10 (lbs of grain, for ~30 pts/lb/gal) or 11 (lbs of grain,
>including crystal, for ~27 pts/lb/gal)?? Either way, I should have had a
>starting gravity of around 1.060, and I was still relatively full of myself.
 
The way I do it:
10 lbs of 2Row base Malt  at  30 pts/lb => 300 pts  (nominal)
1 lbs of Crystal 60  at  10 pts/lb      => 10 pts   (nominal)
                                       ---------
                                        310 pts/6.2 gal => 1.050 calculated OG
You got 1.049 or:
49 pts/lb/gal x 6.2 gal = 303.8/310 = 98% of nominal yield ie. Damn Good.
You can say 27 pts/lb/gal but you can see what the lower yielding specialtys do
to your perceived extraction.

> I tried
>to do the whirlpool technique to avoid syphoning hot/cold break, hops,
>and what have you, into the fermenter. I totally fouled this up. Somehow
>I ended up pouring the whole damn thing into the primary! I did go
>through a strainer, though. Is all this gunk gonna ruin my Perfect
>Liberty Clone??!! Can I leave most of it behind when I rack to the secondary?

Are you saying you were using a Counter flow Chiller and could not get it to
work and dumped hot wort into your primary??! Ouch! (trumpet heard in the
distance)
The gunk ie trub will not be a factor if you rack to a secondary at some point
after primary fermentation. (After the krausen starts falling back in.)

Sounds like a splendid first all grain batch.
John J. Palmer - Metallurgist for MDA-SSD M&P 
johnj at primenet.com  Huntington Beach, California
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy - www.primenet.com/~johnj/


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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 17:31:04 -0400
From: aa3625 at freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu (Jason Sloan)
Subject: supplies/pubs in KC area?



You know the routine.
I'll be going to med school in August in Kansas City, MO and I haven't 
heard much talk about homebrewing or brewpubs in that region of the 
state.  Any info is greatly appreciated.  TIA...  Jason
     P.S.  Please use the "freenet" address for email.  Thanks.

- --
Jason Sloan
sloan01?jason at cc01.mssc.edu or aa3625 at freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu
- ---Yo ho ho and a bucket of homebrew...

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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 17:51:04 -0400
From: aa3625 at freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu (Jason Sloan)
Subject: Lazy first stab at wine.



On a lark I went to the grocery store and bought two cans of 100%
grape juice (frozen concentrate) and dumped them into a one gallon
jug with some yeast from a previous batch of beer.  I added 2 cups
of table sugar and topped off with water to make 1 gallon.
     This is roughly based on a recipe which my (deceased) aunt gave
my family years ago, though her recipe called for 4 cups of sugar.
It has been fermenting very well all week and I plan to let it 
ferment for about 6 weeks before racking to a secondary and later
bottling it.
     Does anyone know what I will end up with?  Does anyone have any
similar recipes?  Sorry that this has little to do with beer per se
but it seemed like a fun experiment that would use the leftover 
yeast from the batch of beer that I had bottled the day before.

(Sorry if that was kind of garbled.  I'm on codeine cough medicine;))
P.S.  Use the "freenet" address for email.  Thanks

- --
Jason Sloan
sloan01?jason at cc01.mssc.edu or aa3625 at freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu
- ---Yo ho ho and a bucket of homebrew...

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Date: 21 Apr 1995 16:05:47 -0800
From: "Harrington, Stephen J" <sharrington at msmail4.hac.com>
Subject: Samuel Smiths Pale Ale

A friend of mine has challenged me to clone Samuel Smiths Old Brewery Pale
Ale.  I told him I was up to the challenge, but after checking my available
resources, I was unable to find a recipe.  So, off to the net....

Does anyone have a recipe that they have had great success with?  My
preference is all-grain.

Thanks,

Stephen Harrington
sharrington at msmail4.hac.com


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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 20:44:47 -0400
From: Wseliger at aol.com
Subject: Copper Boiling Kettles

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has constructed boiling kettles
from copper............ 

I have several ss boiling kettles made from kegs, but I'm hoping to increase
my batch size to ~25-30 gallons (I'm currently doing two all-grain 10 gallon
batches at a time).  The kettles I have now take a great deal of time to
bring to a boil on my South Bend stove.   I will be moving over to 160K btu
wok burners soon, but if I'm going to construct  x-large kettles I figure I
may as well use copper.  
I know that copper tigs easily and I do have access to tig equipment, so I'm
mostly looking for help in the materials and design area.  Where did you
acquire materials, what type of thickness walls for the kettle, any
reinforcing, welding method used, valves, handles, etc.

Does anyone have good or bad experiences in this area???
Replies via private email are fine - I will post a summary when all the info
is in...

Thanks in advance,
Bill Seliger
Chicago Beer Society
Chicago, IL

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Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 11:00:50 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Carl Etnier <Carl.Etnier at abc.se>
Subject: Re: archives - how to read them!

>>CGEDEN at  asks: <<<<<<<<<<
>>Does this PBS of homebrewing archive its postings somewhere where 
>>we proles can read them?  Or do you need the secret decoder ring to
>>translate them?>>>>>>>>>
>>PatrickM50 replies:
>>Re-read (or read!) the info at the beginning of every HBD.  It's 
>>that longish bit of text that you zip by on your way to the first 
>>posting.

>That longish bit of text doesn't point that the archives are saved 
>as .z files.
They are saved as .Z files. There's a difference. The unix command 
"uncompress" will work on them, I am told. The easiest way to 
uncompress them is when you ftp them. If you missed 1706, for 
example, go to the directory where 1706.Z is stored and write
get 1706

That will send you the uncompressed file. I don't know of a way to 
use mget to get a bunch of files uncompressed at once.

As a Mac user, I bring them home compressed and use the utility 
MacCompress to open them up. I think I got it from info-mac. Works 
quite well.

I believe all this discussion arose from a creative misunderstanding, 
BTW. I interpreted the original question to be about the possible 
archives of a closed, membership-by-application-only homebrew forum 
that was once given the misleading appelation "PBS of homebrewing."

Carl Etnier
Transplanted Yank in Trosa, Sweden

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1713, 04/24/95