---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

Contents:
  Hops, relatives, and REAL beer (BROWN)
  herbs in beer (Dick Dunn)
  hops and relatives (TEJB0)
  Just getting started (Paul A. Ebersman)
  Humulus and Siblings (Michael Berry)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #172 (June 09, 1989) (Greg Wageman)
  herbs in beer ("1107-CD&I/VIRUS DISEASES")
  David Line (Pete Soper)
  mead (florianb)
  Re: Sweet Beers (Mike Fertsch)
  Brewing in garbage pails (Where'd all this water come from?)

Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:     Fri, 9 Jun 89 09:38 EST
From: <BROWN%MSUKBS.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:  Hops, relatives, and REAL beer

> " A few months back someone asked about the possibility of
>replacing hops with a related plant renowned for its narcotic
>properties.  I tried this once, with mixed results."

>Excuss me a minute, while I flame.  1) Hops and that other herb
>to which you are referring, besides being plants, are not
>related.

Sorry, Erik, I think you're wrong.  My reference (Michigan Flora, by Edward
G. Voss, 1985) locates both Cannabis (hemp) and Humulus (hops) in the Hemp
Family (Cannabaceae). [A few authors place both genera in the Moraceae, the
mulberry family].  Thus, unless you're a creationist, or have some new
molecular data I'm not aware of, you have to acknowledge that the two herbs
in question are in fact more closely related than all plants in general.
[Related is such a relative term, if you'll excuse the redundancy].  If you
have some new data on this, please provide a citation while flaming.

>2) Why would you put anything in beer or encourage
>others to use ingredients which contribute negatively to the
>flavor and natural aroma of beer? 3)If you want to use drugs, go
>ahead. But if you want to brew REAL beer, use only hops, malt,
>water and yeast.

First of all, I doubt the intention was to add something "negative" to the
beer.  The initial attempt just didn't work out.  Your attitude about what
REAL beer is seems a little narrow to me.  I'm all for the Reinheitsgebot
when it comes to German style lagers, but it seems the history of brewing
allows for a little more variation and imagination than hops, malt, water and
yeast (a fantastic combination, I admit).  I'd direct you to a Zymurgy issue
a year or two back which outlined a large number of herbs which have been
used in the production of beer (I believe yarrow was a equal contender to
hops in English brewing for a certain period).  Having dabbled in the addition
of such ingredients as cherries, ginger, and cardomom (not at the same time)
to beer with positive results, I can attest to the ability of flavoring
adjuncts to complement the wonderful flavor and aroma of "REAL beer."  I
suspect the same could be done with "drugs" (have a beer, Erik, calm
your nerves).  Maybe not -- but let's not stifle creativity with orthodoxy.

Jackie Brown (Bitnet:  BROWN at MSUKBS)

Return to table of contents


Date: 9 Jun 89 07:51:24 MDT (Fri)
From: hplabs!utah-cs!cs.utexas.edu!raven!rcd (Dick Dunn)
Subject: herbs in beer

Erik Henchal wrote:
> Excuss me a minute, while I flame.  1) Hops and that other herb
> to which you are referring, besides being plants, are not
> related...

Look, we're all mature adults, right?  Let's go ahead and use the M-word
if that's what we mean...although that first posting speaking of a
"narcotic plant" without identifying it did leave me with the same bizarre
vision as someone else, namely grafting poppies onto hops!  I think of the
plants in my back yard and imagine a 20-foot vine with buds the size of
kiwi fruit hanging off it, blossoming into saucer-sized flowers...quite a
vision!  But I digress...

How did the rumor get started that you could graft marijuana onto hops,
anyway?  Just looking at a hop vine, it seems like a very unusual candi-
date--a perennial vine which insists on vine-like curling and climbing,
leaves coming off in pairs, etc.  My field (sic) is far from biology, so
things like plant classifications occasionally surprise me (e.g., that
cabbage, brussels sprouts, broccoli, and cauliflower are all the same
species) but I've never been able to buy the grafting idea.  Has anyone
actually *seen* one?  (I don't mean "talked to someone who's seen one.")
I know there are variations of the rumor...I remember college roommates
trying to smoke hops!  (Bleagh.)  Anyone have real biological info?  I have
no interest in marijuana vines or THC in beer, but I am interested in beer-
related folklore and this bit has been around a long time.

The term "hophead" used to mean "drug addict".  I don't know how/where that
started either (it's decades old at least), but it could have generated
the grafting legend.

>...2) Why would you put anything in beer or encourage
> others to use ingredients which contribute negatively to the
> flavor and natural aroma of beer?...

A fair question, but irrelevant...the original posting addressed the idea
of modifying the overall experience.  It's not as if it's inherently un-
reasonable; other herbs are added to beer, such as woodruff (at serving) in
a weisse, or cardamom in Hoegaarden White.  I do think it would be perverse
to persevere if you found it adding off flavors to the beer.  (Sort of like
trying to make a pizza-flavored beer...eventually you figure out that you
can just have a pizza alongside the beer instead of in it.)

>...3)If you want to use drugs, go
> ahead. But if you want to brew REAL beer, use only hops, malt,
> water and yeast. 

Now hold on here...

Objection #1:  Beer IS a drug, and don't ever go believing it isn't!  This
is not the place to discuss pro- or anti-drug stances.  Let's just note
that alcohol is legal; marijuana is not (in the US), and therefore we
should steer clear of advocating its use to avoid any hint of possible
problems for the mailing list.

Objection #2:  I'm not having any of this "REAL beer" purist nonsense. 
I've added honey, cinnamon, ginger, cherries, and raspberries to my beers
(not all the same batch!:-) to make particular specialties, and they were
no less beer for the substances added.  I don't have to pass Reinheits-
gebot to have a good beer.  One of the reasons a lot of us brew is just to
be able to make unusual beers we can't buy...and that may mean unusual
ingredients other than the Holy Three.
---
Dick Dunn	{ncar;ico;stcvax}!raven!rcd		(303)494-0965
			or	rcd at raven.uucp

Return to table of contents


Date:    Fri, 09 Jun 89 10:06 CDT
From: TEJB0%UMNADMIN.BITNET at VM1.NoDak.EDU
Subject: hops and relatives

Erik Henchal writes:

> Excuss me a minute, while I flame.  1) Hops and that other herb
> to which you are referring, besides being plants, are not
> related. 2) Why would you put anything in beer or encourage
> others to use ingredients which contribute negatively to the
> flavor and natural aroma of beer? 3)If you want to use drugs, go
> ahead. But if you want to brew REAL beer, use only hops, malt,
> water and yeast.

Actually, hops and "that other herb" are quite closely related.  While
they are species of two different genera, those genera are the only
members of the family Cannabaceae.  Mind you, I still can't imagine
putting the stuff in beer.

Erik Biever
tejb0 at umnadmin.bitnet

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Jun 89 9:59:06 EDT
From: pae at cos.com (Paul A. Ebersman)
Subject: Just getting started

I am just getting into the idea of brewing my own beer, and would appreciate
pointers as to:

1) Instruction/Recipe books worth having

2) Are kits the way to start? Which kits work well?

3) Mail order companies that have pieces/parts/yeasts, etc.

Thanks in advance.
-- 
               Paul A. Ebersman  at  Corporation for Open Systems
  pae at cos.COM or pae%cos.com at uunet.uu.net or {uunet, sundc, hadron}!cos!pae
     ( The difference between practice and theory in practice is always
      greater than the difference between practice and theory in theory. )

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Jun 89 09:22:41 mdt
From: Michael Berry <mcb at hpfcls>
Subject: Humulus and Siblings

  ERIK A. HENCHAL writes:

> Excuss me a minute, while I flame.  1) Hops and that other herb
> to which you are referring, besides being plants, are not
> related. 

Not much of a flame, but feel excused.  Hops and whacky weed ARE
genetically related, though.  Perhaps some brewing bioligist
can inform us how.

> 2) Why would you put anything in beer or encourage others to 
> use ingredients which contribute negatively to the
> flavor and natural aroma of beer? 

I suspect that there is a hidden agenda here.  I don't suspect
that this person was intending to negatively affect the taste of
the brew.  I would guess that they were interested in the psycho-
active quality that it could impart.  Is that any clearer?

> 3)If you want to use drugs, go ahead. But if you want to brew 
> REAL beer, use only hops, malt, water and yeast. 

I'm sure that I won't be the first to point out to you that the
ethyl alcohol in beer is much more of a drug than the by-product
of a pot plant.  And for your beer purity grail, I must just
laugh.  You don't use Burton salts or other water tempering
techniques?  How about the lining of the floatation bladder of
the sturgeon fish, otherwise know as issenglas finings?  Amalyse
enzymes that converted the malts to sugars?  Guano on your
malt pods?  Perhaps you get the picture.  Who cares about
some unachievable purity ideal when the drinkability of the
brew is all that really matters.

> a.e.mossberg says later:

> Now, I... er.. a friend did this, but did not replace the 
> Humulus with Cannabis but merely reduced the former, and 
> added a quantity of the latter.

I must ask - did it produce any "interesting" results from this adjunct?

Michael Berry   ARPA:mcb%hpfcls at hplabs.HP.COM   UUCP:hplabs!hpfcla!mcb

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Jun 89 09:05:27 PDT
From: sjsca4!greg at uunet.UU.NET (Greg Wageman)
Subject: Re:  Homebrew Digest #172 (June 09, 1989)

I would like to make a couple of comments regarding a certain amount of
intolerance I've been seeing here lately.  The first incident was in
response to Dave Line's comment about using saccharine to provide a
non-fermenting, residual sweetness.  It elicited this comment from "Dr.
T. Andrews":

>I don't know where Dave Line got the idea to add saccharin to
>home-brew.  Sure, it won't ferment.  Neither will dirt.

>Besides the unfortunate health effects, the stuff tastes very
>bad, and leaves an unpleasant aftertaste.  Avoid it like taxes.

Perhaps Dr. Andrews (that's not an M.D., is it, Dr. Andrews?) could
produce a medical journal reference which documents these "unfortunate
health effects"?  Saccharine has been in use as an artificial sweetener
for over 20 years, yet I've not heard of one documented case of any
*human* illness attributed to it, tumors in mouse bladders
notwithstanding.  If not, then you are only spreading rumor and
innuendo.  That is not the purpose of this newsletter.

Many people, myself included, can drink saccharine-sweetened products
without noticing any strange or unpleasant tastes.  Many others
cannot.  Homebrewers have always been particularly experimental and
innovative with their brews, and comments like this only discourage
that effort.  While I myself and others would have recommended lactose
for this purpose, we should remember that there are also people who
cannot digest lactose (milk sugar).  Lactose gives such people severe
and unpleasant digestive problems, something that can hardly be said of
saccharine.

The second comment to which I must reply comes from Erik Henchal.  In
response to Tom Burgess's posting about brewing with "adjuncts" ;-) he writes:

>Excuss me a minute, while I flame.  1) Hops and that other herb
>to which you are referring, besides being plants, are not
>related. 2) Why would you put anything in beer or encourage
>others to use ingredients which contribute negatively to the
>flavor and natural aroma of beer? 3)If you want to use drugs, go
>ahead. But if you want to brew REAL beer, use only hops, malt,
>water and yeast. 

It is true that Cannabis Sativa and Humulus Lupulus are not related.
However, who appointed you the absolute judge of what should and should
not be put in beer?  Charlie Papazian describes a considerable number
of flavorings that have been tried in beer, including chocolate, spruce
and fowl (fortunately, not together).

Remember, beer isn't sacred (are those cries of "Burn the Blasphemer!"
I hear from the audience?).  We homebrewers do not have to adhere to
the Rheinheitsgebot.  Most of the best beers and ales I've had, deviate
from it greatly, adding such flavorings as cherries and ginger, in
addition to unmalted and/or carmelized grains.  American beer brewing
has a long and varied history.  Hops were not always used as the
bittering agent, as anyone with a copy of "The Complete Joy" has
already learned.  There is no reason that we should stop experimenting
with whatever flavoring agents suit our whims.

Remember, also, that one of the byproducts of fermentation of malt
sugar is alchohol, which is also a drug.  It does not reflect well on
homebrewers to get on a high horse about "natural ingredients" and
"drugs", when 3-5% (or more) of our product is a known intoxicant and
toxin.  "Natural" is not necessarily "healthful".  Cyanide is
"natural", too.

Let's try to keep things in perspective, and be more open to
suggestions and ideas in the future, OK?

Thanks.

Greg Wageman			DOMAIN: greg at sj.ate.slb.com
Schlumberger Technologies	UUCP:   ...!uunet!sjsca4!greg
1601 Technology Drive		CIS:    74016,352
San Jose, CA 95110-1397
(408) 437-5198

Return to table of contents


Date: 9 Jun 89 13:16:00 EST
From: "1107-CD&I/VIRUS DISEASES" <henchal at wrair-emh1.army.mil>
Subject: herbs in beer

Apparently, I spoke hastely when I stated that hops and THE herb
(that dopes use) are not related.  Even though everyone can see
that they are clearly different species...in broad terms, they
are related.  Therefore I retract my previous comment. 
Nevertheless, I stand by my other statements that call for the
community to brew only the finest beer with hops, water, malt and
yeast.

ERIK A. HENCHAL
<Henchal at WRAIR.ARPA>

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Jun 89 13:53:33 edt
From: Pete Soper <soper at maxzilla.encore.com>
Subject: David Line

  Dave Line was killed in a car crash around
1980 after advancing homebrewing a lot. Much
of his work was seminal (e.g. "alpha acid
units" for easily quantifying hop bitterness).
  As clearly explained in "Brewing Beers Like
Those you Buy", he used saccharin to get around
limits in the homebrew technique and materials
available to his readers.
  
>If you want sweeter beer, add more crystal malt.

  If you want sweetness without a lot of extra
color (*all other things being equal*) you might
try dextrin malt (if you can sparge) or malto
dextrin (if you don't want to). But then you've
got to adjust your other ingredients to maintain
the target gravities you are after, etc, etc.
  Neither cystal nor dextrin malts may always
act as a substitute for nonattenuative or
semiattenuative yeasts, or for more precise mashing
techniques. These things all interact.

  We're all in violent agreement about not using
saccharin in homebrew so let's move on.

--Pete Soper

Return to table of contents


Date: 09 Jun 89 08:11:54 PDT (Fri)
From: florianb%tekred.cna.tek.com at RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: mead

I'm preparing to make my first batch of mead.  Some of the recipes I've
read call for hops.  Others call for various herbs.  Using hops in a 
wine-like drink doesn't sound appealing to me.  Has anyone experimented 
with hops in mead?  Would you do it again?  What kind did you use?
Thanks.

[Florian Bell, Boonesborough, Oregon]

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Jun 89 13:26 EDT
From: Mike Fertsch <FERTSCH at adc1.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Sweet Beers

Dave Sheehy asks:
> My taste in beer runs towards the sweeter varieties.  Does anybody have any
> suggestions on how to control the sweetness of the final brew? 

There has been several good suggestions on the net regrading residual
sweetness.  I think that crystal malt helps a lot. 

Another idea I read somewhere is the addition of table salt (the
non-iodized kind!)  Apparently the chlorine ion is often perceived as
sweetness by the tongue.  I've seen some recipes for sweet beers
(doppelbocks, oktoberfests, etc.) which call for 1 tsp of table salt. 

I've tried using salt in my last doppelbock, and sure enough, it turned out
tasting quite sweet.  On the negative side, it had excessive esters, which
I perceive as sweet.  I blame the esters on too high an OG and too warm a
fermentation temperature. I'm not sure just how much sweetness to credit to
the salt, and how much to blame on the fermenting conditions.  I ended up
calling the beer a Doppel-Porter Old Ale. 

Mike Fertsch

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Jun 89 23:27 CDT
From: Where'd all this water come from? <PTGARVIN at aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu>
Subject: Brewing in garbage pails

How safe/advisable is it to brew (primary fermentation) in a plastic
garbage can?  (Such as those made of hard plastic sold by Hefty.)

- Patrick
---
Patrick T. Garvin
in the Society: Padraig Cosfhota o Ulad / Barony of Namron, Ansteorra
ptgarvin at aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu / ptgarvin at uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu.UUCP
Disclaimer:  This message has no disclaimer.

Return to table of contents


End of HOMEBREW Digest #173, 06/10/89

---