FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Hop utilization w/CF chiller & the HBD? (Jay Reeves)
  Looking for a few good dry yeasts (Steven W. Schultz )
  Sault Ste. Marie beer? (uswlsrap)
  Beer Fun and Games (Larry Meyer)
  Autoclaving Kegs (John W. Carpenter)
  Malt Extract Dry vs. Liquid (Edwin Thompson)
  Fermenter Fluid Flow Fenomenon--The Bowtie Effect ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 1of3 (Robert Brown)
  Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 2 of 3 (Robert Brown)
  Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 3 of 3 (Robert Brown)
  Gap/Supply sources (Robert Brown)
  3068 Foam (A. J. deLange)
  beer guts (Rich Hill)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 15 Jun 95 09:35:50 EDT
From: Jay Reeves <73362.600 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Hop utilization w/CF chiller & the HBD?

What happened to the HBD?  Did the AI robot have a FIFO
brain fart?  Everything from late Friday (6/9) to mid-morning
Wednesday (6/14) never went out... and HBD1756 was terribly
small.  Maybe everyone unsubscribed.  I posted Friday, never
received a confirmation and not an HBD until today.

Anyway, I repost my ignorance:

I switched from an immersion chiller to a counter-flow
chiller a few batches ago and have a question about hopping.

You probably know the story:With the immersion chiller, the total
volume of wort is chilled at once but with the counter-flow, it
takes about 30 minutes to chill the entire batch, thus, some of the
wort remains near boiling temps longer than the rest.

During this 30 minute time frame, it's obvious that the late hop
additions will actually add to the bitterness more than what's
calculated and your hop aroma/flavor will not be what you would
get using an immersion chiller.

I remember a few post awhile back about it but didn't really pick
anything useful out of it.  Can some of you that use counter-flow
chillers tell me how you deal with calculating the hop additions to
get what you want in terms of correct bitterness levels, flavor
and aroma?  I realise that you'd add flavoring/aroma hops latter,
but how much latter?  Is there any correlation between say a 10
minute hop addition with an immersion chiller and a counter-flow
chiller?

                                       -Jay Reeves
                                        Huntsville, Alabama, USA


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Date:     Thu, 15 Jun 95 10:06:02 EDT
From: Steven W. Schultz <swschult at cbda9.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Looking for a few good dry yeasts

	I totally agree that liquid yeasts are better than dry, but to
save money on my cheap summer brews (British ales, mostly), I'm willing to
go back to dry.  My question is simple:  which of today's dry yeasts on
the market have the best reputation for not being contaminated?  Am I
right to believe that the problem of contamination in dry yeasts is much
less than it was a few years ago? 

	TIA.  Public or private postings are okay.
	
	Steve Schultz
	Abingdon, Maryland
        

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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 10:29:51 EDT
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: Sault Ste. Marie beer?                                           

*** Resending note of 06/11/95 13:26                                           
                                                                               
Any breweries (other than Northern), brewpubs, or beer bars of note in         
Sault Ste. Marie?  (I'm speaking of Ontario, but if there's anything           
in Michigan, let me know about them.  Because of the narrowness of this        
request, private email please.  TIA!                                           
                                                                               
Now go have a beer,                                                            
                                                                               
Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace / uswlsrap at ibmmail.com                
"People who drink light "beer" don't like the taste of beer;                   
                            they just like to pee a lot"                       
 --quote stolen from Capital Brewery, Middleton (Madison), WI                  

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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 08:51:20 -0700
From: Meyer at msscc.med.utah.edu (Larry Meyer)
Subject: Beer Fun and Games

There was a request a while back for beer-theme games. For many years we've
had a beer hunt on Easter, but it could be done any time. Rather than find
them all at once, only one is allowed, brought back, chilled if desired,
then consumed while looking for the next. Depending on the weather, it's
often cool enough so no chilling is required. We usually hide soft drinks
for the kids, and several rounds of eggs/candy. 
This tradition started at UC San Diego about 1970 (Dion, I don't think you
we're around then), with the beers usually hidden over an acre on the north
part of the campus, a eucalyptus forest. Unfortunatly, before my homebrew
days. Most commonly now, it uses 5 or 6 adjacent yards (front and back) in
Salt Lake City, basicly a neighborhood party. We hide them well, and its
routine to find beers from a year or more ago. Oh well.

Larry


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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 11:25:03 EDT
From: jwc at med.unc.edu (John W. Carpenter)
Subject: Autoclaving Kegs

I'm finally getting ready to start kegging, and have a question for the
HBD wisdom. Can the 5 gal soda kegs be autoclaved? Will the O-rings hold
up to the heat? What about the rubber on the ends of the kegs? TIA

John Carpenter - jwc at med.unc.edu - Chapel Hill, NC 

 

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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 09:54:52 -0700
From: ad339 at freenet.unbc.edu (Edwin Thompson)
Subject: Malt Extract Dry vs. Liquid



Thanks to all who replied to my query.  The concencus seems to be that 
since liquid ME is 20% water while dry is 2% they can be converted quite 
accurately by multiplying or dividingy by 0.80. 

sory Malt extract xtract = weight LME x 0.80

        Liquid Malt Extr. = weight DME / 0.80

I was also warned that DME is not always appropriate for brewing since it 
is often food  grade while the  LME for brewing is the actual beer grade.

Again thanks
						Ed.


- --


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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 12:29:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: Fermenter Fluid Flow Fenomenon--The Bowtie Effect


Since #1756 was so small I've assumed msgs queued for the HBD last week were
purged.  If I'm wrong and you see the following twice, I apologize.

I don't get out much, so the following phenonmenon observed in my open 
stainless
fermenter was of extraordinary interest to me and I thought other beer geeks 
may
have seen or can explain it.

First, in the past I've fermented in a 3.5 gal stoneware crock, and have 
noticed
the gummygoo that floats on the foam usually coalesces at one side of the 
kraeusen
surface.  This appeared to be due to the fact that the mass of CO2 rising 
from the
beer had established a flow in the container such that almost all the CO2 
came up
at one side of the crock, driving the residue largely to the other side.

Okay, for the first time this past weekend I fermented in a 16 quart 
stainless pot
which, unlike the crock, has an extremely flat bottom (it's a clad pot and 
doesn't
flex at all) has a very uniform shape.

The fermenter was located on a level surface, and a uniform layer of white 
foam was
soon established.  At my 10 hour inspection, I was astonished to find the 
gummygoo
had coalesced into two identical regions on the foam surface.  Get this: the 
two
regions were shaped like triangles and diametrically opposed--a bow-tie, if 
you
will.  Each gummygoo sector comprised about 20% of the surface area.

I rotated the fermenter 90 degrees, and inspected it a hour or two later to 
find
that the two sectors that had previously NOT had any gummygoo on them now 
did--the
entire surface had a uniform residue layer on it.

As is my custom, I skimmed off the residue leaving as much of the frothy 
kraeusen as
possible.  Several hours later, two more sectors of residue, each identical 
in shape
(nearly perfect triangles) and diametrically opposed.

Okay okay.  This morning I skimmed one last time (goo production had fallen 
off
markedly and there was very little on the foam, and the foam layer was very 
thin).
I racked to a Corny, and at the bottom of the fermenter I found...you 
guessed it...
two identical diamterically opposed sectors of light *clean* yeast.  The 
remaining
area of the fermenter bottom was covered with a thinner layer of your more 
nasty
looking trub/yeast sediment.
Anyone wanna bite on this one?

KRF

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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 18:34:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Brown <rbrown00 at uoguelph.ca>
Subject: Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 1of3 

 
A while back (#1724 if memeory serves) I polled the collective about 
grain mills.  I was unable to thank everyone although there responses 
were greatly appreciated.  So THANKS guys it was a great help.  Now I'm 
going to try to do my part.

What I want to do is present my experiences regarding mills in hopes that 
it will help out others.  First a quick look at the hobby mills available 
to us homebrewers.  Keep in mind that I have not actually ever seen/used 
these roller mills so my comments are based on what others have said 
about them.  Many thanks to Douglas O'brien (douglas.obrien at cers.emr.ca) 
for a great many of these addresses.  Oh, BTW I have in fact masterminded 
my own mill :), but more about that later.  Here I present my backup plan 
if building my own was not to be.

Valley Brewing Equipment
1310 Surrey Ave., 
Ottawa, ON. Canada. 
K1V 6S9  
Tel: (613) 733-5241   
Fax: (613) 731-6476  
	This local (same province) mill is relatively new and I have  
received favourable reviews (2 total) against other mills. Adjustable, 2 
roller design with good throughput and crush.  $145 Can ($99 US) +shipping.   

Jack Schmidling Enterprises
18016 Church Rd
Marengo Illinois 60152
Ph# 815-923-0031
fAX# 815-923-0032
	Adjustable or fixed rollers, good throughput/grind.  Concerns 
about the unequal adjustment of the rollers.  The most expensive but 
viewed very favourably by most.

Glatt Manufacturing
P.O. Box 116
5 Port Way
Dayton, WA USA 99328
tel: 509-382-4356
	Adjustable 2 roller mill. Considered a good mill.  Concern about 
the plastic gears but not a serious problem.  Most mills have a follower 
roller but this one drives both rollers.  

Brewers Resource
409 Calle San Pablo #104 
Camarillo, CA 93012
Ph# 1-800-827-3983
    1-805-445-4100
	A new 2 roller adjustable mill that I have not received 
independent comments on.  Brewtek claims comparable/favourable results 
when compared to other rollers.  $90 US+. 

Listerman Manufacturing Company
1776 Mentor Ave.
Norwood, OH USA 45212
tel: 513-731-1130
	Adjustable 1 roller/plate mill.  Concern about the single roller 
have been voiced.  $75-$80 US+ makes it the least expensive roller.
	
Corona Mill
Columbia, South America
	A very common (not a roller) and inexpensive ($40-$50 Can) mill 
on the market.  Quality and quantity of grind is a concern.  I have 
actually seen one of these, believe it or not.:)
 
No connection blah, blah, blah.  If I had bought one it probably would 
have been the valley roller mill.  Cost, quality, US exchange, local 
product, etc etc. check them out yourself.

END 1 of 3						To be continued....


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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 18:35:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Brown <rbrown00 at uoguelph.ca>
Subject: Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 2 of 3 

Other Roller mill designs:

Home roller mill makers have been known to happen.  Some were nice enough 
to feed my thirst for knowledge, here in short are there designs.

Terence Tegner(tegbrew at iaccess.za) 
Yep, this is the guy from Africa.  Terence engineered a 2 roller mill 
that will handle 10kg/min.  <WOW!>  Obviously motor driven it has 2 
unknurled 6" diam X 10" length rollers made of mild steel.  It spins one 
roller at 350rpm while using a different sized pulley (driven by the back 
of the same round pulley belt) to give the second roller a slightly diferent 
speed.  This rolls/turns the grain as it is being crushed.    

Andrew Keegan (akeegan at averroes.helios.nd.edu)
Forwarded me 2 roller designs but omitted his own as "experimental".  
Either a great loss of ideas or a plot of some kind, I'm not sure which.:)
They are(in short):
Chris "Barny" Barnhart's (clbarnha at lettterkenn-emh1.army.mil)
Made a roller with 2" diamond knurled rollers.  He feels that around the 
4"-8" mark a smooth or only roughened roller is necessary.  This seems 
reasonable to me and of important design consideration.
Tom Clifton
Made a roller mill of hard maple that were 4" in diameter with axial 
grooves to provide grip.  He also noted a give in his bearings when 
crushing and would consider simple brass bushings considering the 
infrequency and low rpm's of use.

Will Self(wself at viking.emcmt.edu)
Forwarded me a design for a non-centered roller mill.  This design used 4" 
diam, 40 schedule PVC tubing held in place by furniture casters fastened 
to the frame.  A simple hand crank and cog(screw head + hole) system was 
used to drive both rollers.  Knurling was applied with a Knife and a 
quality grind was the end product.  

Wellington County Brewery(Guelph, Ont. Can)
Obviously not a homebrewer(Micro) but the only other mill I have Knowledge 
of(and have actually seen).  This agricultural mill is best described as 
2 wagon wheels which run against each other.  Good crush, Good beer the 
final product tells me this design works.

BUILDING A MILL
There are numerous considerations but some very simple/basic ones.  A mill 
must draw grain (sufficiently fast/throughput) between 2 "plates" which 
will crack the contents while leaving the husk as intact as possible. 
Beyond these points you should not be constrained by the designs of
agricultural/commercial/hobby mills as available materials will be the 
most limiting factor in producing a functional mill.  Those with access 
to a full blown fabricating shop should consider themselves lucky and in 
the minority.  

DESIGN CONSIDERATIONS
Wait to finalize your Plan until you have the rollers in  hand.  A 
plan is easy to change but try and find the rollers to fit your plan!

ADJUSTMENT:  In a proven production situation a fixed roller design is 
possible but at home adjustment will be needed.  Knowing the exact gap 
needed (?very small) and being able to attain it along the length of a 
fixed roller anywhere but at a precision shop is dubious.  As well type, 
seasonal, varietal, etc grain differences would best be handled by an 
adjustable mill.  A simple threaded rod/screw adjuster, attached to the 
follower roller, would suffice in most cases.

FRAME:  Frame/hopper design must be sturdy, reliable and functional.  
They are essential but secondary to the "rollers" which are the "guts" of 
the machine.  The frame must hold the rollers solidly and incorporate an 
adjusting mechanism.  Such as a simple threaded rod/screw mechanism that 
moves the roller shaft/bearing housing along a slot or channel of some sort.
  
ROLLER DESIGN: The materials mentioned above could all be 
used however availability, hardness, durability, ease of fabrication, and
maintenance required (e.g. rusting) should all be considered.

The shape of the "roller" need not be an actual roller.  Wheel shaped 
"rollers" and a non-centered design could also be considered.  In 
addition larger diameter rollers(4"-6"?) do not need the same/any 
texturing.  The relatively flat crushing "profile" can draw the grain 
without Knurling.  This is important when looking for a roller if you 
don't have access to the proper equipment for the texturing job.

Fabricating a roller will only work if you or someone you know has access 
to the right tools and the skills to use them.  Having a shop make a pair 
of first run rollers is as or more expensive than buying a hobby mill.  
You can look around for the "Homebrew loving fabricating shop owner" and 
trade some brew for the work.  But unless he's your buddy or 
brother-in-law it's his business and livelihood($$$).  A roller made by 
hand will not do, it must be turned on a lathe (wood or metal) to insure 
that it will be perfectly true.    

END  1of3						To be continued...


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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 18:36:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Brown <rbrown00 at uoguelph.ca>
Subject: Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 3 of 3 


"3 of 3 finally, If it helps at this point you can refer to it as a mercury 
filled coriander mill CO2 driven from inside the fridge :)"

Premade rolllers are available from conveyor belt companies and the like 
but are still a specialty item when new ($$$).  Used ones can be found at 
scrap yards, old factories, used junk dealers etc.  You will most often 
find small diameter, thin walled, and rusted rollers that aren't 
suitable.  However if you look hard enough you might come across a drive
roller(s) from a conveyor belt, Printer rollers(toxic inks?), or the oat 
rollers from an old agricultural mill.  Look for textured or large 
diameter rollers that will not need further modificatio and spin true.  
	A fixed shaft roller with bearings or bushings is simple to attach
	a crank handle to.  But if both your your rollers are the spin 
	around the shaft type a means of driving at least 1 is needed.  I
	suggest welding or bolting a cog/pulley around the shaft directly on
	the end plate of the roller.  You can then drive it with a chain or   
        pulley belt that runs in between the frame and roller, to either a 
   	hand crank or motor.  This allows the roller to still spin on 
	it's internal bearings smoothly and precisely.  

Wheels, consider the "wheeler" mill.  Large diameter (6"+)(No Knurling)and 
smaller length (2.5"-3"+) may be more easily found either used(cheap) or 
new($$$).  Old agricultural or Industrial material handling equipment 
(carts/fork trucks) have solid broad/flat faced tires.  Caster centers 
and farm supply shops etc will have suitable($$$) new ones.  You can 
remove the rubber/plastic coating (if any) and check that it has a 
flat/true surface.  These will probably be mild steel and will need to be 
coated or regularly maintained to remove the rust. 
	A wheels cracking length is smaller, but the larger diameter will 
	make up the surface area difference with every revolution/turn of the 
 	crank.  Two shaped grain guards will hold the grain in place. A 
	much thinner frame with a standard adjusting mechanism, hopper 
	and crank handle should be relatively easy to fabricate once 
	you've found your "wheelers".

Non-centered design (similar to Will Self's) may also be a consideration.   
The main requirement here is to maintain a constant gap for the grain to 
be drawn through.
  Tubing or solid stock with a constant diam could  be held or jockeyed"
in place with casters/wheels held on a surrounding framework.  One side 
of the frame can be hinged for adjustment and a crank handle and 
simple gearing system will drive the rollers. 
 Alternatively thin "C shaped buschings" could be cut to the diameter of 
the tubing.  The "C's" would face each other to create a suitable grinding 
surface.  One side would be adjustable(hinged or sliding) the other crank 
driven with a gearing/o-ring system for drive transfer.  The materials 
used would have to be smooth to allow rotation without to much 
resistance. I have a pair of 1" diam X 3" knurled barbell handles with 
grooves appropriate for a "C bearing".  This mini-roller was very close 
to becoming a reality.
 Tubing with a constant wall thickness (even oval or egg shaped profiles 
would do) of suitably large diameter can be used. By inserting small 
wheels or rollers in the tubing the grinding surface of the tube can be 
held from the inside at the desired position.  This would be essentially 
an oddly centered roller that would require a somewhat trickier drive 
mechanism.  
	The off-centered rollers are a round about way of construction no 
	doubt. But the materials (common tubing/wheels/casters/etc) are 
	inexpensive (even new) and found at any hardware/handyman store.  
	Will's design works (plans available) and I believe the other 
	off-center designs could work as well.  It would just take some
	work and ingenuity.

MY ROLLER MILL
After long searching and planning I found a conveyor belt with 2 suitable 
rollers ($10, nice guys, good deal).  The drive roller is 4" diameter 
knurled aluminum with shaft and bearings in good condition.  The follower  
is a 2" diameter smooth SS roller with square bearing housings.  They are 
both 18" long but the knurled roller is very subtly tapered from the 
center (like "<4" diam>" but only a few fractions from center to ends). This 
gives me 1 of 2-8" useable "planes" as a grinding surface (the SS roller 
is true).  
I (with some invaluable help, Thanks Wayne) cut down the original frame 
and remounted the Knurled roller thusly, [roller], the frame has a "squared C
profile".  Pieces of angle iron were mounted midway in the frame to form 
a 3-sided adjusting track along the upper edge of the "C" shaped frame. The 
2 rollers now sit at the same height.  I/we tapped a threaded rod into the 
bearing housing, put plates on the adjustable/small roller end,  and 
bolts on the rods on eitherside of these plates.  The mills small roller is 
adjustable and can be slightly angled to be parallel with 1/2 of the 
Knurled roller, creating an 8" grinding surface.  A simple handle was 
fashioned and the test grind worked:).  Later I built a simple hopper out of 
spare materials at home.  
The mill works very well, good adjustable crush and fast throughput.  
Approximetely 15 turns of the handle for 1 pound (15rev./lb).  Even on a 
lazy day a 5 gallon batch should take only 2-3 minutes of grinding at the 
most.  It's almost a shame, I spent so many hours searching and planning, 
and I will probably only use it an hour or so every year.  But then 
making the toys is almost half the fun, it is a hobby after all the hours 
spent are hours enjoyed.:)

Sorry about the bandwidth, atleast none of the dreaded never ending 
threads were brought up.:)  I just hope that more than a quick description 
of my final design will generate more ideas.  Ideally, I would like the 
HBD collective to come up with the elusive "home roller" design.  a 
reliable mill that can be reasonably made at home.

Apologies for any innacuracies, vagueness, bad grammar, etc etc.  Any 
questions, comments, or rude remarks can be directed to me or posted, I will 
reply in turn from my thermally protected lurking chamber. 

		Beers To You,    		Rob 



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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 19:00:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Brown <rbrown00 at uoguelph.ca>
Subject: Gap/Supply sources

Was it just me or did anyone else notice the gap of published articles in 
the latest digest.  Sometime Friday through sometime Wednesday by my 
count.  You guessed it, even my onslaught of article(s) couldn't make it 
through.  BTW what is the maximum length that will be puplished, did I 
need to break that one up?

My real question(s) is where are the best/preffered and hopefully 
cheapest mail-order sources for: Yeast and Whole Hops.  Also if I want 
to get a propane burner,  which one is the best.   I'm hoping someone 
has already done the leg work on this and has a file they can forward 
me. 

	I will now end my attempt to dominate this digest mailing,

					Rob


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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 16:56:14 -0500
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: 3068 Foam

"Dulisse, Brian" <bbd4 at CIPCOD1.EM.CDC.GOV> using Wyeast 2068 observed a
lull in fermentation and a change in the character of the foam upon
resumption:

I have never observed a lull with this strain. It just takes off and goes
like mad for a few days, then subsides and all is over. I've been working
it at about 64F. I do know what the creamy stuff is though. That is the
yeast which being an ale yeast flocculates to the top. Did the production
of CO2 increase after the lull or are you basing your observation of
renewed vigor on the appearance of the creamy foam alone?

A.J. deLange   Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel at interramp.com



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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:26:20 -0700
From: rihill at ednet1.osl.or.gov (Rich Hill)
Subject: beer guts



Greetings,

A year or so ago there was an article I read somewhere that said there 
was something about beer, besides the calories that produced the 
famous "beer gut".  Now that I'm building beers that are more filling
and my metabolism is slowing, the battle of the bulge is beginning in 
earnes.

Does anyone know what I'm taking about?  Is there something we can do
about it?  Will it affect mouth feel?  

btw my last batch was my first all grain, a stout, and its great!
thanks for all the infor from the brew digest.  

					Rich

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1757, 06/16/95