HOMEBREW Digest #1757 Fri 16 June 1995

Digest #1756 Digest #1758

		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor

  Hop utilization w/CF chiller & the HBD? (Jay Reeves)
  Looking for a few good dry yeasts (Steven W. Schultz )
  Sault Ste. Marie beer? (uswlsrap)
  Beer Fun and Games (Larry Meyer)
  Autoclaving Kegs (John W. Carpenter)
  Malt Extract Dry vs. Liquid (Edwin Thompson)
  Fermenter Fluid Flow Fenomenon--The Bowtie Effect ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 1of3 (Robert Brown)
  Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 2 of 3 (Robert Brown)
  Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 3 of 3 (Robert Brown)
  Gap/Supply sources (Robert Brown)
  3068 Foam (A. J. deLange)
  beer guts (Rich Hill)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15 Jun 95 09:35:50 EDT From: Jay Reeves <73362.600 at compuserve.com> Subject: Hop utilization w/CF chiller & the HBD? What happened to the HBD? Did the AI robot have a FIFO brain fart? Everything from late Friday (6/9) to mid-morning Wednesday (6/14) never went out... and HBD1756 was terribly small. Maybe everyone unsubscribed. I posted Friday, never received a confirmation and not an HBD until today. Anyway, I repost my ignorance: I switched from an immersion chiller to a counter-flow chiller a few batches ago and have a question about hopping. You probably know the story:With the immersion chiller, the total volume of wort is chilled at once but with the counter-flow, it takes about 30 minutes to chill the entire batch, thus, some of the wort remains near boiling temps longer than the rest. During this 30 minute time frame, it's obvious that the late hop additions will actually add to the bitterness more than what's calculated and your hop aroma/flavor will not be what you would get using an immersion chiller. I remember a few post awhile back about it but didn't really pick anything useful out of it. Can some of you that use counter-flow chillers tell me how you deal with calculating the hop additions to get what you want in terms of correct bitterness levels, flavor and aroma? I realise that you'd add flavoring/aroma hops latter, but how much latter? Is there any correlation between say a 10 minute hop addition with an immersion chiller and a counter-flow chiller? -Jay Reeves Huntsville, Alabama, USA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 10:06:02 EDT From: Steven W. Schultz <swschult at cbda9.apgea.army.mil> Subject: Looking for a few good dry yeasts I totally agree that liquid yeasts are better than dry, but to save money on my cheap summer brews (British ales, mostly), I'm willing to go back to dry. My question is simple: which of today's dry yeasts on the market have the best reputation for not being contaminated? Am I right to believe that the problem of contamination in dry yeasts is much less than it was a few years ago? TIA. Public or private postings are okay. Steve Schultz Abingdon, Maryland Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 10:29:51 EDT From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com Subject: Sault Ste. Marie beer? *** Resending note of 06/11/95 13:26 Any breweries (other than Northern), brewpubs, or beer bars of note in Sault Ste. Marie? (I'm speaking of Ontario, but if there's anything in Michigan, let me know about them. Because of the narrowness of this request, private email please. TIA! Now go have a beer, Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace / uswlsrap at ibmmail.com "People who drink light "beer" don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot" --quote stolen from Capital Brewery, Middleton (Madison), WI Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 08:51:20 -0700 From: Meyer at msscc.med.utah.edu (Larry Meyer) Subject: Beer Fun and Games There was a request a while back for beer-theme games. For many years we've had a beer hunt on Easter, but it could be done any time. Rather than find them all at once, only one is allowed, brought back, chilled if desired, then consumed while looking for the next. Depending on the weather, it's often cool enough so no chilling is required. We usually hide soft drinks for the kids, and several rounds of eggs/candy. This tradition started at UC San Diego about 1970 (Dion, I don't think you we're around then), with the beers usually hidden over an acre on the north part of the campus, a eucalyptus forest. Unfortunatly, before my homebrew days. Most commonly now, it uses 5 or 6 adjacent yards (front and back) in Salt Lake City, basicly a neighborhood party. We hide them well, and its routine to find beers from a year or more ago. Oh well. Larry Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 11:25:03 EDT From: jwc at med.unc.edu (John W. Carpenter) Subject: Autoclaving Kegs I'm finally getting ready to start kegging, and have a question for the HBD wisdom. Can the 5 gal soda kegs be autoclaved? Will the O-rings hold up to the heat? What about the rubber on the ends of the kegs? TIA John Carpenter - jwc at med.unc.edu - Chapel Hill, NC Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 09:54:52 -0700 From: ad339 at freenet.unbc.edu (Edwin Thompson) Subject: Malt Extract Dry vs. Liquid Thanks to all who replied to my query. The concencus seems to be that since liquid ME is 20% water while dry is 2% they can be converted quite accurately by multiplying or dividingy by 0.80. sory Malt extract xtract = weight LME x 0.80 Liquid Malt Extr. = weight DME / 0.80 I was also warned that DME is not always appropriate for brewing since it is often food grade while the LME for brewing is the actual beer grade. Again thanks Ed. - -- Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 12:29:00 MST From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil> Subject: Fermenter Fluid Flow Fenomenon--The Bowtie Effect Since #1756 was so small I've assumed msgs queued for the HBD last week were purged. If I'm wrong and you see the following twice, I apologize. I don't get out much, so the following phenonmenon observed in my open stainless fermenter was of extraordinary interest to me and I thought other beer geeks may have seen or can explain it. First, in the past I've fermented in a 3.5 gal stoneware crock, and have noticed the gummygoo that floats on the foam usually coalesces at one side of the kraeusen surface. This appeared to be due to the fact that the mass of CO2 rising from the beer had established a flow in the container such that almost all the CO2 came up at one side of the crock, driving the residue largely to the other side. Okay, for the first time this past weekend I fermented in a 16 quart stainless pot which, unlike the crock, has an extremely flat bottom (it's a clad pot and doesn't flex at all) has a very uniform shape. The fermenter was located on a level surface, and a uniform layer of white foam was soon established. At my 10 hour inspection, I was astonished to find the gummygoo had coalesced into two identical regions on the foam surface. Get this: the two regions were shaped like triangles and diametrically opposed--a bow-tie, if you will. Each gummygoo sector comprised about 20% of the surface area. I rotated the fermenter 90 degrees, and inspected it a hour or two later to find that the two sectors that had previously NOT had any gummygoo on them now did--the entire surface had a uniform residue layer on it. As is my custom, I skimmed off the residue leaving as much of the frothy kraeusen as possible. Several hours later, two more sectors of residue, each identical in shape (nearly perfect triangles) and diametrically opposed. Okay okay. This morning I skimmed one last time (goo production had fallen off markedly and there was very little on the foam, and the foam layer was very thin). I racked to a Corny, and at the bottom of the fermenter I found...you guessed it... two identical diamterically opposed sectors of light *clean* yeast. The remaining area of the fermenter bottom was covered with a thinner layer of your more nasty looking trub/yeast sediment. Anyone wanna bite on this one? KRF Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 18:34:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Brown <rbrown00 at uoguelph.ca> Subject: Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 1of3 A while back (#1724 if memeory serves) I polled the collective about grain mills. I was unable to thank everyone although there responses were greatly appreciated. So THANKS guys it was a great help. Now I'm going to try to do my part. What I want to do is present my experiences regarding mills in hopes that it will help out others. First a quick look at the hobby mills available to us homebrewers. Keep in mind that I have not actually ever seen/used these roller mills so my comments are based on what others have said about them. Many thanks to Douglas O'brien (douglas.obrien at cers.emr.ca) for a great many of these addresses. Oh, BTW I have in fact masterminded my own mill :), but more about that later. Here I present my backup plan if building my own was not to be. Valley Brewing Equipment 1310 Surrey Ave., Ottawa, ON. Canada. K1V 6S9 Tel: (613) 733-5241 Fax: (613) 731-6476 This local (same province) mill is relatively new and I have received favourable reviews (2 total) against other mills. Adjustable, 2 roller design with good throughput and crush. $145 Can ($99 US) +shipping. Jack Schmidling Enterprises 18016 Church Rd Marengo Illinois 60152 Ph# 815-923-0031 fAX# 815-923-0032 Adjustable or fixed rollers, good throughput/grind. Concerns about the unequal adjustment of the rollers. The most expensive but viewed very favourably by most. Glatt Manufacturing P.O. Box 116 5 Port Way Dayton, WA USA 99328 tel: 509-382-4356 Adjustable 2 roller mill. Considered a good mill. Concern about the plastic gears but not a serious problem. Most mills have a follower roller but this one drives both rollers. Brewers Resource 409 Calle San Pablo #104 Camarillo, CA 93012 Ph# 1-800-827-3983 1-805-445-4100 A new 2 roller adjustable mill that I have not received independent comments on. Brewtek claims comparable/favourable results when compared to other rollers. $90 US+. Listerman Manufacturing Company 1776 Mentor Ave. Norwood, OH USA 45212 tel: 513-731-1130 Adjustable 1 roller/plate mill. Concern about the single roller have been voiced. $75-$80 US+ makes it the least expensive roller. Corona Mill Columbia, South America A very common (not a roller) and inexpensive ($40-$50 Can) mill on the market. Quality and quantity of grind is a concern. I have actually seen one of these, believe it or not.:) No connection blah, blah, blah. If I had bought one it probably would have been the valley roller mill. Cost, quality, US exchange, local product, etc etc. check them out yourself. END 1 of 3 To be continued.... Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 18:35:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Brown <rbrown00 at uoguelph.ca> Subject: Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 2 of 3 Other Roller mill designs: Home roller mill makers have been known to happen. Some were nice enough to feed my thirst for knowledge, here in short are there designs. Terence Tegner(tegbrew at iaccess.za) Yep, this is the guy from Africa. Terence engineered a 2 roller mill that will handle 10kg/min. <WOW!> Obviously motor driven it has 2 unknurled 6" diam X 10" length rollers made of mild steel. It spins one roller at 350rpm while using a different sized pulley (driven by the back of the same round pulley belt) to give the second roller a slightly diferent speed. This rolls/turns the grain as it is being crushed. Andrew Keegan (akeegan at averroes.helios.nd.edu) Forwarded me 2 roller designs but omitted his own as "experimental". Either a great loss of ideas or a plot of some kind, I'm not sure which.:) They are(in short): Chris "Barny" Barnhart's (clbarnha at lettterkenn-emh1.army.mil) Made a roller with 2" diamond knurled rollers. He feels that around the 4"-8" mark a smooth or only roughened roller is necessary. This seems reasonable to me and of important design consideration. Tom Clifton Made a roller mill of hard maple that were 4" in diameter with axial grooves to provide grip. He also noted a give in his bearings when crushing and would consider simple brass bushings considering the infrequency and low rpm's of use. Will Self(wself at viking.emcmt.edu) Forwarded me a design for a non-centered roller mill. This design used 4" diam, 40 schedule PVC tubing held in place by furniture casters fastened to the frame. A simple hand crank and cog(screw head + hole) system was used to drive both rollers. Knurling was applied with a Knife and a quality grind was the end product. Wellington County Brewery(Guelph, Ont. Can) Obviously not a homebrewer(Micro) but the only other mill I have Knowledge of(and have actually seen). This agricultural mill is best described as 2 wagon wheels which run against each other. Good crush, Good beer the final product tells me this design works. BUILDING A MILL There are numerous considerations but some very simple/basic ones. A mill must draw grain (sufficiently fast/throughput) between 2 "plates" which will crack the contents while leaving the husk as intact as possible. Beyond these points you should not be constrained by the designs of agricultural/commercial/hobby mills as available materials will be the most limiting factor in producing a functional mill. Those with access to a full blown fabricating shop should consider themselves lucky and in the minority. DESIGN CONSIDERATIONS Wait to finalize your Plan until you have the rollers in hand. A plan is easy to change but try and find the rollers to fit your plan! ADJUSTMENT: In a proven production situation a fixed roller design is possible but at home adjustment will be needed. Knowing the exact gap needed (?very small) and being able to attain it along the length of a fixed roller anywhere but at a precision shop is dubious. As well type, seasonal, varietal, etc grain differences would best be handled by an adjustable mill. A simple threaded rod/screw adjuster, attached to the follower roller, would suffice in most cases. FRAME: Frame/hopper design must be sturdy, reliable and functional. They are essential but secondary to the "rollers" which are the "guts" of the machine. The frame must hold the rollers solidly and incorporate an adjusting mechanism. Such as a simple threaded rod/screw mechanism that moves the roller shaft/bearing housing along a slot or channel of some sort. ROLLER DESIGN: The materials mentioned above could all be used however availability, hardness, durability, ease of fabrication, and maintenance required (e.g. rusting) should all be considered. The shape of the "roller" need not be an actual roller. Wheel shaped "rollers" and a non-centered design could also be considered. In addition larger diameter rollers(4"-6"?) do not need the same/any texturing. The relatively flat crushing "profile" can draw the grain without Knurling. This is important when looking for a roller if you don't have access to the proper equipment for the texturing job. Fabricating a roller will only work if you or someone you know has access to the right tools and the skills to use them. Having a shop make a pair of first run rollers is as or more expensive than buying a hobby mill. You can look around for the "Homebrew loving fabricating shop owner" and trade some brew for the work. But unless he's your buddy or brother-in-law it's his business and livelihood($$$). A roller made by hand will not do, it must be turned on a lathe (wood or metal) to insure that it will be perfectly true. END 1of3 To be continued... Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 18:36:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Brown <rbrown00 at uoguelph.ca> Subject: Roller Mills <Warning Long Post> 3 of 3 "3 of 3 finally, If it helps at this point you can refer to it as a mercury filled coriander mill CO2 driven from inside the fridge :)" Premade rolllers are available from conveyor belt companies and the like but are still a specialty item when new ($$$). Used ones can be found at scrap yards, old factories, used junk dealers etc. You will most often find small diameter, thin walled, and rusted rollers that aren't suitable. However if you look hard enough you might come across a drive roller(s) from a conveyor belt, Printer rollers(toxic inks?), or the oat rollers from an old agricultural mill. Look for textured or large diameter rollers that will not need further modificatio and spin true. A fixed shaft roller with bearings or bushings is simple to attach a crank handle to. But if both your your rollers are the spin around the shaft type a means of driving at least 1 is needed. I suggest welding or bolting a cog/pulley around the shaft directly on the end plate of the roller. You can then drive it with a chain or pulley belt that runs in between the frame and roller, to either a hand crank or motor. This allows the roller to still spin on it's internal bearings smoothly and precisely. Wheels, consider the "wheeler" mill. Large diameter (6"+)(No Knurling)and smaller length (2.5"-3"+) may be more easily found either used(cheap) or new($$$). Old agricultural or Industrial material handling equipment (carts/fork trucks) have solid broad/flat faced tires. Caster centers and farm supply shops etc will have suitable($$$) new ones. You can remove the rubber/plastic coating (if any) and check that it has a flat/true surface. These will probably be mild steel and will need to be coated or regularly maintained to remove the rust. A wheels cracking length is smaller, but the larger diameter will make up the surface area difference with every revolution/turn of the crank. Two shaped grain guards will hold the grain in place. A much thinner frame with a standard adjusting mechanism, hopper and crank handle should be relatively easy to fabricate once you've found your "wheelers". Non-centered design (similar to Will Self's) may also be a consideration. The main requirement here is to maintain a constant gap for the grain to be drawn through. Tubing or solid stock with a constant diam could be held or jockeyed" in place with casters/wheels held on a surrounding framework. One side of the frame can be hinged for adjustment and a crank handle and simple gearing system will drive the rollers. Alternatively thin "C shaped buschings" could be cut to the diameter of the tubing. The "C's" would face each other to create a suitable grinding surface. One side would be adjustable(hinged or sliding) the other crank driven with a gearing/o-ring system for drive transfer. The materials used would have to be smooth to allow rotation without to much resistance. I have a pair of 1" diam X 3" knurled barbell handles with grooves appropriate for a "C bearing". This mini-roller was very close to becoming a reality. Tubing with a constant wall thickness (even oval or egg shaped profiles would do) of suitably large diameter can be used. By inserting small wheels or rollers in the tubing the grinding surface of the tube can be held from the inside at the desired position. This would be essentially an oddly centered roller that would require a somewhat trickier drive mechanism. The off-centered rollers are a round about way of construction no doubt. But the materials (common tubing/wheels/casters/etc) are inexpensive (even new) and found at any hardware/handyman store. Will's design works (plans available) and I believe the other off-center designs could work as well. It would just take some work and ingenuity. MY ROLLER MILL After long searching and planning I found a conveyor belt with 2 suitable rollers ($10, nice guys, good deal). The drive roller is 4" diameter knurled aluminum with shaft and bearings in good condition. The follower is a 2" diameter smooth SS roller with square bearing housings. They are both 18" long but the knurled roller is very subtly tapered from the center (like "<4" diam>" but only a few fractions from center to ends). This gives me 1 of 2-8" useable "planes" as a grinding surface (the SS roller is true). I (with some invaluable help, Thanks Wayne) cut down the original frame and remounted the Knurled roller thusly, [roller], the frame has a "squared C profile". Pieces of angle iron were mounted midway in the frame to form a 3-sided adjusting track along the upper edge of the "C" shaped frame. The 2 rollers now sit at the same height. I/we tapped a threaded rod into the bearing housing, put plates on the adjustable/small roller end, and bolts on the rods on eitherside of these plates. The mills small roller is adjustable and can be slightly angled to be parallel with 1/2 of the Knurled roller, creating an 8" grinding surface. A simple handle was fashioned and the test grind worked:). Later I built a simple hopper out of spare materials at home. The mill works very well, good adjustable crush and fast throughput. Approximetely 15 turns of the handle for 1 pound (15rev./lb). Even on a lazy day a 5 gallon batch should take only 2-3 minutes of grinding at the most. It's almost a shame, I spent so many hours searching and planning, and I will probably only use it an hour or so every year. But then making the toys is almost half the fun, it is a hobby after all the hours spent are hours enjoyed.:) Sorry about the bandwidth, atleast none of the dreaded never ending threads were brought up.:) I just hope that more than a quick description of my final design will generate more ideas. Ideally, I would like the HBD collective to come up with the elusive "home roller" design. a reliable mill that can be reasonably made at home. Apologies for any innacuracies, vagueness, bad grammar, etc etc. Any questions, comments, or rude remarks can be directed to me or posted, I will reply in turn from my thermally protected lurking chamber. Beers To You, Rob Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 19:00:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Brown <rbrown00 at uoguelph.ca> Subject: Gap/Supply sources Was it just me or did anyone else notice the gap of published articles in the latest digest. Sometime Friday through sometime Wednesday by my count. You guessed it, even my onslaught of article(s) couldn't make it through. BTW what is the maximum length that will be puplished, did I need to break that one up? My real question(s) is where are the best/preffered and hopefully cheapest mail-order sources for: Yeast and Whole Hops. Also if I want to get a propane burner, which one is the best. I'm hoping someone has already done the leg work on this and has a file they can forward me. I will now end my attempt to dominate this digest mailing, Rob Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 16:56:14 -0500 From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange) Subject: 3068 Foam "Dulisse, Brian" <bbd4 at CIPCOD1.EM.CDC.GOV> using Wyeast 2068 observed a lull in fermentation and a change in the character of the foam upon resumption: I have never observed a lull with this strain. It just takes off and goes like mad for a few days, then subsides and all is over. I've been working it at about 64F. I do know what the creamy stuff is though. That is the yeast which being an ale yeast flocculates to the top. Did the production of CO2 increase after the lull or are you basing your observation of renewed vigor on the appearance of the creamy foam alone? A.J. deLange Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore! ajdel at interramp.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:26:20 -0700 From: rihill at ednet1.osl.or.gov (Rich Hill) Subject: beer guts Greetings, A year or so ago there was an article I read somewhere that said there was something about beer, besides the calories that produced the famous "beer gut". Now that I'm building beers that are more filling and my metabolism is slowing, the battle of the bulge is beginning in earnes. Does anyone know what I'm taking about? Is there something we can do about it? Will it affect mouth feel? btw my last batch was my first all grain, a stout, and its great! thanks for all the infor from the brew digest. Rich Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1757, 06/16/95