FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Checks (again) (Kevin McEnhill)
  Spoiled Batch? (lavist)
  Recipe for Caffreys (Phil Hitchman)
  re: Fermenter Fluid Flow Fenomenon--The Bowtie Effect (Tom_Tills.wbst214)
  Glatt Mill (Eric Marzewski)
  Metallurgy Question (Phil Miller)
  Kirk's Bowtie=Benard Cells? (RWaterfall)
  Colorado Brewers Fest ("James Giacalone")
  WHERE'S THE DIGEST ("N43a")
  Capt Kirk's Krausen Corners ("Palmer.John")
  Re: Yeast Patterns ("Pat Babcock")
  liquid vs dry yeast (troussos)
  high gravity all-grain ("Timothy P. Laatsch)
  CO2 regulators (Robert Lauriston/Patricia Bennett)
  re grain/extract storage (Robert Lauriston/Patricia Bennett)
  Converting a keg to a boiler (Daniel Cook)
  Looking for a few good dry yeasts ("chip shabazian")
  (no subject) (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Re: Hop utilization w/CF chiller (Bill Szymczak)
  Using a Laaglander Irish Stout kit (Nir Navot)
  Liquid Yeast Experience (Drago James MAJ)
  CF Chilling effects on hops / Autoclaving kegs (Rob Reed)
  Help for CD, Water Woes, Roller Mills (Chris Barnhart)
  Re: Brews to Style (StanM13541)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 6:51:00 EDT
From: kevinm at rocdec.roc.wayne.edu (Kevin McEnhill)
Subject: Checks (again)

Well, it seems we had a roll-over accident on the 'information
superhighway', so I will post this again.

I have just moved, and my mail box (snail mail) is getting inundated
with the "So, you are new to the area. Well, if you are going to live
here your HAVE to buy this" and all of that rot. One of the pamphlets
was selling checkbooks. They had just about every job and hobby
represented but I noticed a sever lacking. They had nothing on brewing.
I know that we might not represent a large portion of the population
(yet) but I think there should be some checks with brewing stuff on
them. Do these exist some place?

- -- 
Kevin McEnhill			Gershenson Radiation Oncology Center
				Harper Hospital
Phone:	(313) 745-2465		3990 John R.
Fax:	(313) 745-2314		Detroit, Michigan 48201
E-mail:	kevinm at rocdec.roc.wayne.edu

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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 07:49:19 -0400
From: lavist at cc.tacom.army.mil
Subject: Spoiled Batch?

     
     I am calling for help from my fellow brewers. I started a batch of 
     Australian Ale last March and decided to age it in the secondary 
     fermentation vessel. Due to sheer laziness, the batch is still in the 
     secondary fermentor. This past weekend, I was going to keg it and when 
     I looked at the batch it has a 1/4" ring of mold on top. Is this batch 
     salvageable or did I lose it?  Please send your replies directly to: 
     lavist at cc.tacom.army.mil and Thanks in advance! - Terry Lavis

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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 13:23:48 BST
From: phitchma at mpc-uk.com (Phil Hitchman)
Subject: Recipe for Caffreys

Folks,

Does anybody know the recipe for the new Irish beer 'Caffreys' ?

Phil	hitchmap at hoskyns.co.uk

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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 06:13:42 PDT
From: Tom_Tills.wbst214 at xerox.com
Subject: re: Fermenter Fluid Flow Fenomenon--The Bowtie Effect


>had coalesced into two identical regions on the foam surface.  Get this: the
two
>regions were shaped like triangles and diametrically opposed--a bow-tie, if
you
>will.  Each gummygoo sector comprised about 20% of the surface area.

If there were three triangles, I would suggest that your fermenter is on top of
a nuclear waste dump, but I'm stymied (but intrigued).

Any other gummygoo stories?

					TNT

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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 09:25:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Marzewski <ca385a19 at nova.umuc.edu>
Subject: Glatt Mill

The concerns of plastic gears are over, Greg Glatt is now using a new 
material that is stronger (nylon?). I use a drill and fire thru 20-25 
lbs.very fast and have no problems with it and do get a great milling.

I was told compuserve had the Planet Beer info and lectures on-line, 
anyone know how to get access via AOL or just Internet?

Cheers,

Eric Marzewski   "Why do you have a micro-brewery in your garage? Because 
it cures what ales ya'."

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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 07:29:05 -0600
From: pmiller at mmm.com (Phil Miller)
Subject: Metallurgy Question

I want to use a hop strainer in my kettle made from 302 stainless
steel.  I know that all stainless steel is not created equal.  Does
anybody know if 302 stainless will cause any problems?  (For instance,
I'm particularly interested in finding out if 302 corrodes easily
or if unwanted toxins -- plutonium, for instance -- will leech out
into the wort poisoning me and my family and causing my dog to mutate
into a giant slobbering Golden Retriever Of Death.)

TIA.

Private e-mail is welcome if the answers are too detailed for a general
posting.


Phil
pmiller at mmm.com



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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 09:48:34 -0400
From: RWaterfall at aol.com
Subject: Kirk's Bowtie=Benard Cells?

IN HBD 1757, Kirk R. Fleming described the bowtie-shaped krausen and yeast
sediments in his open ss fermenter.  Here's my scientific wild-ass guess,
based on one fluid mechanics course and a cassette tape of USEPA's "Intro to
Air Pollution Meteorology" that I listened to once in 1981.  (I can tell
you're all jealous of my lofty credentials ;-).

Flow is being generated by the usual fermentation ruckus (temp variations,
CO2 bubbles, particle settling).  For some reason (possibly relating to the
nice smooth flat fermenter bottom that Kirk described, surface tension at the
ss walls, and/or fermenter geometry), circulating flow cells (see below)
establish themselves.  The goopy areas at the surface IMO are the places
where two flows going in opposite directions along the surface crash into
each other and start heading to the bottom where they drop out yeast when
making the sharp turn to flow across the bottom.  Hypothetically, we would
see the same thing happening in our carboys if they had perfectly flat
bottoms?? 

Last year a thread on Benard convection cells branched off with Cushing
Hamlen's post in #1598.  Somewhere in there, someone mentioned that cells
become unstable in tall fermenters.  What's your geometry Kirk? (If that's
not too personal a question).  George Fix in #1689 referred to some journal
articles on the subject of fermenter convection.  BTW, he also referred to
his new book as "scheduled for publication in June,1995."  Has anyone seen it
yet?

That was one heck of an awkward lull in the conversation this week.

Bob Waterfall,
Troy, NY, USA

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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 10:06:45 EDT
From: uscgc2r3 at ibmmail.com

  
Subject: sealer/barrier bag
  
In answer to James Nachman's request for a vacuum sealer and barrier bags...
James, I've seen home-use vacuum sealers in catalogs like "Damark". After
reading your post, I saw a heat sealer "Daisey seal-a-meal" at a yard sale and I
picked it up in case you want it (only $5.00, no big deal if you don't) it's not
a vacuum unit, but the idea behind the vacuum is to remove the oxygen. This can
also be accomplished by purging with an inert gas before sealing. If you've got
access to Nitrogen, that's the most widely used gas commercially, but even CO2
would displace the oxygen and inhibit oxidation. I also have access to a few
hundred decent barrier bags about 6" x 9" (they could of course, be sealed
shorter). Let me know if you want this stuff.
Wallie Meisner -Packaging Engineer
Tel 910 632 2410

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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 8:19:24 MDT
From: "James Giacalone" <JGiacalone at vines.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: Colorado Brewers Fest

I just wanted to post an announcement for the
Colorado Brew Fest held in Ft. Collins, Colorado
on June 24th & 25th.  It features 50 Colorado 
breweries, each brewery has about 4-5 beers 
you can sample.  There is also live bands all day
long.  It is just as much fun as the Great American
Brew Fest, but this one is outdoors!  See ya there!!

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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 07:37:11 PST
From: "N43a" <n43a at cnsp-emh.san.mrms.navy.mil>
Subject: WHERE'S THE DIGEST


     Again, the second time in about a month, I've logged in to find that 
     the HBD has not arrived.  I do not believe that I did anything to p*** 
     off the A/I machine.  Maybe I did...   OR, has the HBD distributor 
     switched to Bud or Coors?

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Date: 16 Jun 1995 07:35:21 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Capt Kirk's Krausen Corners

Kirk reports sighting geometric shapes in his fermenter.

Gentlebrewers, I think we are seeing the signs of alien intelligence at work.
First there were the Crop Circles in England in the wheat fields, then those
bizarre circles and shapes spread to the rest of the world, showing up in the
corn growing regions of the United States and doubtless in barley fields as
well. The connection was not obvious at first, but with Kirk's sighting in the
Krausen and Yeast of his Stainless Steel fermenter, I believe we have received
a vital clue. These aliens are Brewers!

Just think, they have probably been trying to contact us for years, but glass
and stoneware open fermenters are Non-conductive to Electromagnetic Radiation
and therefore resisted their efforts, forcing them into grandiose displays in
the fields! And since most other Stainless Steel fermenters in use today are
closed-off Unitanks, these geometric transmissions have gone un-noticed until
now. Kirk, you have made a monumental discovery! Please preserve that yeast, it
is undoubtably a special yeast that they, whomever they are (Vegans?) have
given to you. I suggest we codename it Stardust in future discussions.

John J. Palmer - Metallurgist for MDA-SSD M&P 
johnj at primenet.com  Huntington Beach, California
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy - www.primenet.com/~johnj/
8)

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Date:          Fri, 16 Jun 1995 11:53:38 +0000
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject:       Re: Yeast Patterns

In Homebrew Digest #1757 (June 16, 1995):

>"Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
>talks about  Fermenter Fluid Flow Fenomenon--The Bowtie Effect

Seems your yeast is going formal.  Were you brewing a formal type of 
brew? Like an Imperial Stout?

Or, perhaps ALIEN BEINGS arranged the yeast in a manner similar to 
the pattern phenomena in large grain fields - Maybe it's not your 
yeast at all! Maybe your barley was harvested from one of those 
fields!

Hmmm. This calls for further research! Send that batch to me for in- 
depth tasting, er, TESTING  immediately!
"Drink all you want - I'll brew more!"

Patrick (Pat) G. Babcock    | "Yup, Kit's (Anderson) a brewer...
President, Brew-Master      |  What he isn't is a woman." - Dan Hall
and Chief Taste-Tester      | "Let a good beer be the exclamation point 
Drinkur Purdee pico Brewery |  at the end of your day as every sentence 
pbabcock at oeonline.com       |  requires proper punctuation." -PGB
SYSOP on The HomeBrew University - Motor City Campus BBS (313)397-9758

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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 11:29:01 -0400
From: troussos at fefjdcc.attmail.com (troussos)
Subject: liquid vs dry yeast

Will somebody please clearly explain the benefits of liquid vs. dry yeast?
I've been hearing for sometime how great liquid is.  However, I haven't heard 
what it does that is different than dry.   Are the benefits real  or is liquid
yeast just marketing hype ??  

please help !!!       

troussos at attmail.com

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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 12:16:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy P. Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>" <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>
Subject: high gravity all-grain

Hey All,

Can someone with some experience in doing high-gravity all-grain beers please 
explain in detail how to use first and second runnings to make a small batch 
of high gravity brew and a second batch of more modest gravity?  
Specifically, I would like to know what volumes are collected at each stage, 
how to predict or calculate the gravity of the first and second runnings if 
possible, whether the second runnings need to be diluted to get to the desired 
full-volume without oversparging, etc.  I was thinking about doing a 3-gallon 
batch of strong scotch ale along with a 5-gallon batch of light scottish ale.
Any help is much appreciated.

BTW, the overwhelming consensus on my Wyeast 3056 Bavarian Wheat query was 
"Don't use it!"  Most respondents recommended Wyeast 3068 Wheinstephan for a 
more intense clove character.  Also, when making an authentic German wheat 
beer, keep the bittering hops to a minimum and avoid aroma hops altogether.

FWIW, I believe the time commitment associated with all-grain brewing has been 
severely underestimated in the late thread on that subject----either that or 
I am just anal about sanitation and cleanliness. ;)  When you consider yeast 
starter prep and maintenance, water pre-treatment (boiling in my case), grain 
crushing, recipe preparation and research, pre-brewing cleaning and 
sanitation of the kitchen/brewhouse, step mashes, decoctions, sparging, 
boiling, chilling, aeration, pitching, CLEANUP, note-taking, computer logging 
of notes, racking, bottling/kegging, etc. the time investment is frickin' HUGE.
I have never had an all-grain brew-day less than 7 hours total even with a 
single infusion mash----although, I boil on the stovetop and have an immersion 
chiller.  This, of course, doesn't include any of the other stuff mentioned 
above.  Homebrewing is not that cheap when you consider your labor cost 
alternative---even at minimum wage!  You simply have to have a consuming 
passion to be crazy enough to brew your own.  Just my perspective, YMMV.

Bones

*+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
|   Timothy Laatsch               |email: laatsch at kbs.msu.edu | Aspiring    | 
|   Graduate Student	          |phone: 616-671-2329        | All-Grain   |
|   Michigan State University     |fax:   616-671-2104        | Homebrewer  |
|   Kalamazoo, MI                 |           ;^)             | & Scientist |
*+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*

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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 11:04:21 -0700
From: robtrish at noif.ncp.bc.ca (Robert Lauriston/Patricia Bennett)
Subject: CO2 regulators

> It seems truly surprising that no one (myself included) on the HBD knows how
> pressure regulators work!   Anyone?           Eamonn McKernan
>       eamonn at atmosp.physics.utoronto.ca

This is a post purge resubmission with the hope that some will find another
different explanation useful.

The basic arrangement of a CO2 regulator is like this:

adjusting screw : big spring : diaphram : pin  (gas out): VALVE : wee spring
(gas in)

The VALVE delivers the gas from the high pressure side shown on the right to
the low delivery pressure side in the middle.  It is held shut by the high
side pressure, aided by a spring to ensure that it is 'normally closed'.
The valve is opened when the pin pushes on it.  Starting with the adjusting
screw backed all the way out, you begin to tighten it.  The adj. screw
pushes on the spring, diaphram and pin, opens the VALVE and gas begins to
flow.  If it is vented to the atmosphere, it keeps flowing 'til your tank is
empty.  Damn those slow leaks!  Take heed all ye of great faith who leave
your gas turned on.  But we do hope there's a closed system downstream, and
so the CO2 accumulates and the pressure rises.  This pressure also acts on
the diaphram, pushing back against the 'big spring'.  At a certain pressure,
the diaphram pushes back far enough to pull the pin out of the VALVE and
close it.  The farther in the adjusting screw is turned, the greater is the
pressure required to stop the CO2 flow.  Voila!  Regulated gas flow.  

As Jeremy Bergsman wrote in 1755 (hbd, not A.D.), a given regulator setting
will not result in the same output pressure under all conditions. 

The diaphram is about 4 cm in diameter (thats one and three quarters of a
twelth of the length of a dead king's foot) and so a low pressure applied
against this large area overcomes the resistance of a much larger pressure
on the small area of the valve opening. 

The gages have no effect on the operation of the regulator, they just let
you know what is happening.  There are different types of gages, but a
common type uses a Bourdon tube as the sensing element.  That is a flexible,
hollow, metalic tube, oval in cross-section, bent in the shape of a question
mark.  As pressure is applied to the inside of the tube, the cross-section
becomes more circular and the question mark starts to straighten out.  This
is translated mechanically to the dial.  (The scuba regulator that Troy
Howard described sounded as if it might have used a Bourdon tube as a valve
actuator.)

A gage should be accurate for practical purposes at all the temperatures we
use.  Dave Harsh pointed out that the pressure gage will not be accurate if
the actual atmospheric pressure is not the same as the reference pressure
for which the gage was calibrated (e.g. high altitudes)

And sorry Larry, but I go with defective regulator if it gives you different
readings for the same pressure delivered to the beer.  (And naturally you
would require different pressures if the beer is at different temperatures
to maintain the right level of carbonation.)  Doesn't seem like there's any
reason to 'fix' yours since you've figured out how it works, but your
accurate observations wouldn't apply to a 'properly working' gage.

Your unhumbled servant and sometimes steam engineer, Rob.
 Rob Lauriston, The Low Overhead Brewery (better between the joists)
 Vernon, British Columbia <robtrish at noif.ncp.bc.ca>


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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 11:04:36 -0700
From: robtrish at noif.ncp.bc.ca (Robert Lauriston/Patricia Bennett)
Subject: re grain/extract storage

To Brian K Pickerill
(Sorry to clog your arteries folks, but my private mail didn't get through.)

Hello Brian,
        I'm not a bio-chemical rocket scientist, but I can offer what I've
picked up along the way.
        When it comes to extracts, I second what Al K. says.  The colouring
is only the most visible of the changes that take place during storage.  I
always associate a sort of licorice flavour with old extract, and I don't
like licorice.  One of the reasons I don't use extract now -- even from some
kits I really like, such as Brewfrem Kriek -- is that my geographical
location denies me any assurance of freshness.
        Grain is another matter.  The main thing is to keep it dry.  Malt is
extremely hygroscopic or whatever they call it, it wants to suck up moisture
and if it does, it will spoil more quickly.  I think that's the main reason
why whole malt stores better than ground malt;  the whole malt absorbs any
available moisture more slowly.  Old malt is often referred to as 'slack',
but this term itrself is an old one (i.e. before airtight storage) and may
refer to malts which have been allowed to increase in moisture content
(DeClerck, vol.1,p.217) rather than the chronological age of the malt.
This means you should pick through the advice you're given to determine
whether they are talking about aged dry malt or damp malt.  
        Also from De Clerck: "The fact that malt with a higher moisture
content than 5% deteriorates in quality has already been stressed...  A
slack malt loses its aroma and grinds poorly and gives rise to unstable
beers with a harsh palate." vol.1,p.226.
        You've piqued my curiousity and so I'll look into it more, but off
the cuff, keep it dry and the temperature won't really be important.   Of
course, refrigeration would normally ensure or increase dryness, and even
more so if it were ground!  Might be better away from your garlic paste and
chopped onions, though.  If there were any doubts about the quality of the
malt, it could always be used blended with fresher malts.  I assume we're
talking about pale malt here;  I think a darker malt could be stored
indefinitely if it were dry.  One of the problems with damp malt is not the
quality of the resulting beer, but simply the processing: it can be harder
to mill with equipment designed for dry malt.
        For a rough indication of the moisture of your discount malt, try
rolling it out with a rolling pin or something like that.  If it's dry, it
would be powdery, and the moister it is, the gummier it would be.  Pretty
subjective, but it might do.  The objective way is to weigh out a sample in
a metal tin, put it in an oven to drive off the moisture, weigh it again,
and the difference in weight is assumed to be due to moisture.  If you have
a very good scale and you're into it...
        Now you've got the malt, I would certainly brew with it.  Make a
brown or a stout or another beer with bang-you-over-the-head flavours and
any shortcomings in the malt can almost certainly be disguised.  
        Hope this helps.  Feel free to mail me if you have followup
questions. - Rob.

(Private and public corrections from HBDers welcome -- as if I could stop you!)

 Rob Lauriston, The Low Overhead Brewery (better between the joists)
 Vernon, British Columbia <robtrish at noif.ncp.bc.ca>


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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 11:21:53 TZ
From: Daniel Cook <dancook at microsoft.com>
Subject: Converting a keg to a boiler

Acme thread-killer #1: I got my keg legally, not in some alley from a 
guy who said, "Psst! Hey fella, wanna buy a beat-up empty beer keg?"

Acme thread-killer #2:  I *know* that this has been discussed before. I 
*have* looked through the past articles and various archives. Short of 
downloading the past 1500 issues of the HBD, I could not find what I'm 
looking for. Any pointers to good FAQs is OK by me.
- ---------------------
Greetings!

I have a 15-gallon (Molson, I think) keg that I'd like to make into a 
large mash/lauter/boil tun. Questions:

1. I'll probably go a local welder and try to barter with him: free 
beer for the opportunity to blast apart a keg.  What is the technique 
for removing the tap/valve assembly before I get a hole cut in the top?

2. Seattle readers: any suggestions for a beer-drinking welder? Not at 
the same time, of course.

3. What interesting things should I get welded onto my keg? I currently 
plan to put
	a. A spigot
	b. A thermometer
	c. maybe some handles?
	d. maybe a mesh screen to act as a false bottom?
Any suggestions on where to get these handy items? Mail-order is fine 
w/me, and probably preferred.
Any suggestions on how/where to put these items on the keg are also 
welcome by me.

4. What is the theory behind the liquid-level sight thingy? I guess 
I've never seen one in action, and don't know the details of how they 
work. Is this a cool thing to have on a converted keg?

All replies are gratefully accepted. Your responses will only help to 
increase my brew-ability, and increase the average skill set of the 
world's homebrewers. Basically, I'm doing this for *all* of us!

Dan Cook



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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 11:34:56 EST
From: "chip shabazian" <chip_shabazian at stream.com>
Subject: Looking for a few good dry yeasts

     Steven asks
     
     <I totally agree that liquid yeast's are better than dry, but to
     save money on my cheap summer brews (British ales, mostly), I'm 
     willing to go back to dry.  My question is simple:  which of today's 
     dry yeast's on the market have the best reputation for not being 
     contaminated?  Am I right to believe that the problem of contamination 
     in dry yeast's is much less than it was a few years ago?>
     
     While I also like the beer I get from the liquid yeast's that I use, I 
     know you can get EXCELLENT beer from dry yeast.  One of the local 
     brewmasters uses exclusively Nottingham dry yeast!  His beers are 
     among the best I have ever had, and he has had no infections from the 
     yeast.  He has used the Nottingham yeast since his training at the 
     Seibel institute of which he is a graduate, and has won a fair number 
     of medals at the GABF.  So I say go for it, if dry yeast is good 
     enough for him, it is good enough for anyone.
     
     Chip_Shabazian at Stream.Com
     "Save the Ales"


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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 11:44:45 0000
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu>
Subject: (no subject)

***************************************************************
Announcement:   7th Annual Small Brewers Festival of California
***************************************************************

The festival:
}-----------
  The Seventh Annual Small Brewers Festival of California will take
  place on Saturday, July 15 from 11 a.m. to 7 p.m. and Sunday, July
  16 from 11 a.m. to 5 p.m.

  The festival will be held behind the Tied House Cafe and Brewery in
  Mountain View, California.

  Over 50 microbreweries from the west coast will present over 140
  beers for tasting. Volunteer beer pourers are needed.

  Proceeds from this festival benefit local and regional public
  charities.

  For more festival information, call (800) 965-BEER

AHA sanctioned homebrew competition:
}----------------------------------
  The Worts of Wisdom Homebrewing Club coordinate the amateur brewing
  competition, sponsored by the Tied House. All AHA beer categories
  only, no mead, sake or cider, Entry must be received by June 24,
  1995 For entry information, call (408) 247-6010.

Judges needed:
}------------
  All judging will take place at the Residence Inn on July 8 and 9
  in Sunnyvale, California.

  For more information on judging, email brewcomp at pobox.com or call
  (408)247-6010.


Jeremy Bergsman                                    
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu                      
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb




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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 15:14:15 -0400
From: Bill Szymczak <wszymcz at relay.nswc.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: Hop utilization w/CF chiller


Jay Reeves asked about hop additions with different chillers:

>I switched from an immersion chiller to a counter-flow
>chiller a few batches ago and have a question about hopping.

>You probably know the story:With the immersion chiller, the total
>volume of wort is chilled at once but with the counter-flow, it
>takes about 30 minutes to chill the entire batch, thus, some of the
>wort remains near boiling temps longer than the rest.

>During this 30 minute time frame, it's obvious that the late hop
>additions will actually add to the bitterness more than what's
>calculated and your hop aroma/flavor will not be what you would
>get using an immersion chiller.

Although there may be some effect, my opinion and experience
is that it is relatively small.  First of all, the average
amount of time that the wort spends at near boiling is only half
the total chill time. (Some of the wort is chilled immediately and
some remains hot for the entire chill time).  Secondly, I believe
that the actual boiling of the wort is important in its utilization,
that is, you get much higher utilization rates by boiling the hops
as opposed to simply steeping it.  (Although I have no quantitative 
evidence to support this.)  Finally, most of the aroma and
flavor is also driven off by boiling as opposed to mearly steeping.
Also, even with an imersion chiller the hops are being "steeped"
for some time at high temperatures while the wort is cooling.

My advice is that as a first approximation, assume the same effects
and try the same recipe and hop schedule (with say an American-style
pale ale).  If you find large difference from your immersion chilled 
batches, then adjust accordingly.  Personally, I didn't observe
much of a change when I switched from immersion to CF, but my
chilling time is only 15-20 minutes as opposed to your 30
minutes.

Bill Szymczak
Gaithersburg, MD
wszymcz at nswc.navy.mil

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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 23:22:10 +0300
From: diagen at netvision.net.il (Nir Navot)
Subject: Using a Laaglander Irish Stout kit

I just got a Laaglander pre-hopped Irish Stout kit. The instructions on the
can suggest adding 2 1/2 lb of suger to the boil. Acutualy - there is no
boil, only 1/2 gallon of boiling water to dissolve the can's contents in
and the rest - cold water, followed by the yeast. Any suggestions as to how
to Better Brew this Stout? Recipies using the above mentioned kit would be
much apperciated. Many thanks. Nir.



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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 16:32:51 EDT
From: tj2996 at WESTPOINT-EMH2.USMA.ARMY.MIL (Drago James MAJ)
Subject: Liquid Yeast Experience

Recently, I received a kit to make an extract weizen that contained a liquid 
wyeast packet. Per instructions, I prepped the packet 2 days before brew day, 
fully expecting to find the bloated pouch ready to go. On brew day, the yeast 
had not swollen at all and did not swell for two weeks. Finally, I gave up and 
explained what had happened to the James Page Brewery, where I bought the kit. 
They quickly replaced the yeast and it worked like it was supposed to.
 When the old yeast packet failed, I placed it in our furnace room where the 
temp hovers at about 75. Yesterday, after 6 weeks, I noticed that the yeast 
packet was swollen. Has anyone else ever experienced this, and, more 
importantly, do you feel it is salvagable?
JAMES P. DRAGO
MAJ, FA
ADMISSIONS MEDIA OFFICER
X5701

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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 16:07:47 -0400 (CDT)
From: Rob Reed <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: CF Chilling effects on hops / Autoclaving kegs


Jay Reeves <73362.600 at compuserve.com> asks about hop usage in a CF
chiller scenario:

With my CF chiller, kettle, and its interface, I manually 'whirlpool'
the hot wort for about 1-2 minutes, then wait 15 minutes before
starting chilling.  I have noticed a decreased late hop character in
my CF chilled beers.  Because I have a slotted copper strainer through
which my hot wort flows on its way to the chiller, I am able to add
hops during the runoff.

Typically for a Pale Ale, I add a 1 oz. addition at 10 min. from
knockout, a 1 oz. addition at the beginning of chilling, and a 1 oz.
addition halfway through chilling.  My chilling takes 30 minutes.  
Using these late hop additions during the chilling process has
brought my late hop character back up to 'acceptable' levels.  BTW,
I use pellet hops.

I have not noticed significantly increased bitterness in my CF chilled
beers, and have not performed any experiments.

- --

jwc at med.unc.edu (John W. Carpenter) asks about autoclaving soda kegs:

While I have not autoclaved any kegs, I have in the past used boiling
water to sanitize my serving kegs and serving rig, and I *did* notice
degradation to the o-rings on the liquid out/gas in fittings.  I found
they only lasted for two or three boiling water sanitation cycles. YMMV,
but I have since switched to a phosphoric based cleaning and iodine
sanitation regimen.

Rob Reed

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Date:     Fri, 16 Jun 95 14:00:28 CDT
From: Chris Barnhart <cbarnhar at ria-emh2.army.mil>
Subject:  Help for CD, Water Woes, Roller Mills

A while back I bought the Brewing Beer CD, as did others.  
It has all the back issues of the HBD through August 1994 
but they were arranged in Windows .HLP format.  Saying they 
were hard to use is an understatement and I remember a few 
posts with the same gripe.  If only there was a way to pull 
them all into a text file than you could do keyword searchs 
or whatever.  With that in mind, I sought and found a shareware
 .HLP to .TXT conversion program.  It's called SmartDoc, 
version 1.5. and seems like it'll do the trick. I'm giving it
a try tonight.  It's available at Oakland Simtel Mirror site 
(and probably others) through anonymous ftp,  IP 141.210.10.117. 
The path is pub/simtel/win3/winhelp/smtdoc15.zip.  No affiliation
with the author..... etc

Since I've moved along the Mississippi river in Illinois I had to
give up my nice, soft (23ppm), neutral (7.0) Pennsylvania water for
this medium hard (363ppm), high pH (7.5), iron bearing stuff.  I got
a water analysis from the local water department and they say they 
filter out the iron (although I still get brown water).  What arrives 
at the house is still hard and high pH.  I have a water softener and
have heard softened water is unsuitable for brewing.   What does the 
water softener do to the water?  Is there a filter that will
counteract the softener's effect?  I could pull water off upstream 
of the softener, stick to dark beers, boil and decant off percipitate,
etc..  I'd rather have more flexibility though, and hate to buy 
bottled water.  What do other brewers do that are in this situation?

I read Robert Brown's post on roller mills with great interest.  I've
had good luck with mine and built the entire thing for under $70, 
including motor.  Which reminds me, I still have a few copies of my
roller mill plans lying around for those interested.  As before, they
are free,  just send a SASE with *TWO* stamps on the return envelope.  
Please note that I moved, my new address is 718 Willow Drive, Geneseo, 
IL. 61254.

Chris "Barny" Barnhart

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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 23:40:44 -0400
From: StanM13541 at aol.com
Subject: Re: Brews to Style

AI robot forgive me if this is a repeat post!!  :)

kens at lan.nsc.com (Ken Schroeder)wrote:
>Subject: Brews to Style
>
>In HBD 1750 Spencer wrote about errors in the AHA Styles Guideline.
>In particular he mentioned that it is difficult to tell the difference
>of a barley wine with an OG of 1.127 from the AHA guidelline of 1.120.

I was the original poster he was answering, my concern was why some
classic beers (Thomas Hardys Ale in this example) don't fit AHA styles.

>went on the say that the AHA guideline for dopplebock does not match the 
>German law for dopplebock OG.

EKU 28 was the example here, which we both agree is probally in
a class by itself.  It's too high an OG for dopplebock and is not
'ice brewed' for an eisbock.  Though eisbock according to AHA
guidelines isn't 'ice brewed (illegal in the US), can you then make
a Steinbier without hot rocks??

>A beer does not need to meet all of the parameters 
>of a style to be entered into that style. Many brews have won catagories, 
>even best of shows, with out being 100% compliant to a style GUIDELINE.
>These are guidelines, not unbreakable rules! If a beer has the basic 
>characteristics of a style, enter it in that classification! If the brew
>appears to cross catagories, enter it in both.

Which bring us back to the to brewing to style.  
MY OPINION !!!   Not meant to flame.
If you want to enter a compentition, brew to the style you're entering.
To me brewing to style means being able to predict what you're going
to produce before you brew it.  If you brew something that you know is
outside the guidelines, do the honorable thing, Drink It. (you can't enter
an Indy car in a Stock car race even if they have the same horsepower)
If my formulation is outside style guidelines, I just don't enter it.
Not a problem, and doesn't make it a bad beer, just not brewed to 
style. (more for me to drink, aww shucks  :)  )
Brewing to style helps you brew outside style guidelines.  If you want to
try a procedure or ingredient (dropping your beer or adding potatos),
knowing what to expect from your basic recipie allowes you to taste the
contributation of the experiment.  

My frustration with the AHA style guidelines is that they seem to exclude
some classic commercial brews.  (BTW when I am able to clone 
Thomas Hardys the judges are gonna have to pay me to taste it :-) )
  
Stan

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1758, 06/17/95