FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Another watering hole request... (Gerald_Wirtz)
  Beer Dumplings (Rich Hampo)
  RE:  Hot Break Dumplings (Russ Brodeur)
  Hops Pest/Hop Question (Rich Larsen)
  Lactic pregnancy. (Russell Mast)
  Pressure Cooker for Hops ("Dr. Chris Luchini")
  Coed Naked Brewing (kpnadai)
  "Kegging", the way to go! (Eric Marzewski)
  Re: Lauter Flow, Brewing 2 batches (Jim Dipalma)
  CO2 Questions ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  Drinking Iodophor (Ken Schroeder)
  Re: Coffee Stouts (Steve Hanna)
  Re: Souring/Dumplings ("Miller Eric")
  Carboys, wives, hammers, and drugs. (Kenneth K Goodrow)
  Dusseldorf - Part 1 (A. J. deLange)
  Dusseldorf - Part 2 (A. J. deLange)
  FREE Belgian Beer Tasting (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date:           Thu, 6 Jul 95 7:41 EDT
From: Gerald_Wirtz at vos.stratus.com
Subject:        Another watering hole request...

     Traveling to SE Michigan in a few weeks and was wondering if there are
any good brew pubs or micro's in the area.

     Thanks - Gerald Wirtz

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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:25:56 -0400
From: captain at vulcan.srl.ford.com (Rich Hampo)
Subject: Beer Dumplings

Hey gang,

Here's a recipe from the Old Country:

Beer Dumplings (Nokedle - with a twist - for all you Hungarians out there)

2 cups flour
1/2 tsp salt
1 egg
1/2 cup beer (room temp)

Put flour, salt in a bowl. Drop egg into center, add most of beer.
Mix well with wooden spoon. If too dry (It gets wetter as you mix)
add a *little* more beer and continue to mix/knead. Bring 3 qt water
to a boil. Put blob of dough on cutting board and cut/tear (with knife)
small (1.5" x .5" X .5" approx) pieces and drop into boiling water.
When all of dumplings in water, boil for a minute or two more. Drain
and butter if desired.

Disclaimer: I have only made this with water, not beer - but next time
	I'll use beer!



Richard Hampo
H & H Brewing Ltd.

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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 95 09:17:56 -0400
From: r-brodeur at ds.mc.ti.com (Russ Brodeur)
Subject: RE:  Hot Break Dumplings

Here's my assessment:

>I suppose that this could be wheat gluten, but gluten is supposed to be
>water insoluble.  Has anyone ever seen this phenomenon?  I certainly
>hope I have protein left for good head retention.

It sounds exactly like wheat gluten to me.  It probably just coagulated
during the boil.  I just brewed a wit on Tues., and even after a 45 min
multi-step (117, 124 & 130 F) "protein" rest I found some of this on my
immersion chiller while cleaning up.  

I have "made" gluten before, from high-gluten flour, by making a salted
dough, refrigerating overnight, then washing out the starch with cold water.
It was in my Chinese cookbook, so I thought I'd try it.  It is spongy and
latex-like, just like I saw on my chiller and others have reported in their
followups to this posting.

TTFN

Russ Brodeur  (r-brodeur at ds.mc.ti.com)


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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:48:22 -0500
From: rlarsen at squeaky.free.org (Rich Larsen)
Subject: Hops Pest/Hop Question

Yesterday, as I was making the rounds on the back 40 (square yards), I 
noticed something I didn't expect.

There on my hop plant, about 10 feet up, were a happy group of catapillers 
munching away on the leaves.  Well.. sorry, but that just won't do.  I 
reached up and pulled the group off of the leaf and looked closely at them.  
To my surprise, I recognized them as butterfly catapillers.  I should note 
here that in my previous life, I was pursuing entomology in college.  
Anyway, they looked like a species of Polygonia, or angle-wings.  Sure 
enough, after consulting W.J. Holland's "The Butterfly Book", The Genus 
Poligonia feed upon Stinging nettle, and Hop Vine (et all).  This Genus 
contains the common Question Mark and Comma butterflies.

So if you see any medium size (2-3 inch wing span) dark orange with dark 
brown to black jagged hind wings, mottled jagged fore wings, and (if you 
should get close enough) a silver spot on the underside of the rear wings 
resembling a question mark or a comma cresent shape.  Check your bines 
closely for catapillers.  Had I not found this group (around 10) in time, 
they probably would have devistated my only bine.

______________________

Now a question about hop bines.  The leaves on my bine started out nice and 
lush and healthy looking.  Now the edges are turning yellow, then brown and 
crispy.  Eventually, the leaf shrivels up and dies.  This is only happening 
to the leaves in the center of the bine, the top leaves and bottom leave 
look fine.

Do I need fertilizer?  Am I watering too much?  Too little?  TIA

=> Rich <rlarsen at squeaky.free.org>
________________________________________________________________________
Rich Larsen, Midlothian, IL.  Also on HomeBrew University (708) 705-7263
  Spice is the varity of life.
________________________________________________________________________


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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:51:39 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Lactic pregnancy.


> From: Mark Kirby <mkirby at isnet.is.wfu.edu>
> Subject: Lactic Acid in Celis

> I don't want
> to attempt a controlled lactobacillus "infection" (for want of a better term)
> to get the sourness, especially in a summer brew session.

>From my own skimming of posts here and elsewhere, notably the Lambic Digest, I
got the impression that doing a sour-mash would be the method of choice for
me.  (Let the stuff do a lactic fermentation in the mash kettle overnight, or
longer.  You pasteurize during the normal boil and treat the stuff normally 
thereafter.)  I'll probably be trying this in a couple months, but if anyone
has some firsthand experience with this or other methods, I want to hear about
it.

> From: NAFRANK at pop03.ny.us.ibm.net (Nicholas A. Franke)
> Subject: Alcohol Removal From Beer
> 
> 	We have a friend who recently became pregnant, and 
> has developed cravings, real or imagined, for beer.  
> Obviously for health reasons alcohol is out.

She could drink what I've been told is a traditional German drink 
given to pregnant women, called Malzbier.  My (admittedly limited) 
understanding is that it's basically unfermented wort.  Give her a
bottle of Malta Goya (or similar Latino malt drink), she if she likes
that.  (These suggestions are intended to be in addition to to, not 
instead of, non-alcohol beer.  Sorry I don't know doodly about NA beers.)

 -R

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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 09:08:22 -0500
From: "Dr. Chris Luchini" <luchini at hybrid.ualr.edu>
Subject: Pressure Cooker for Hops


I've discovered that the bittering efficiency of hops is increased
if it is boiled in water rather than wort.

Would using a pressure cooker speed up, or increase the efficiency
even further? How about using one for extraction of the hop oils
for a hop tea to put in the secondary?

Any experience with this?

- -- 
Dr. Chris Luchini, University of Arkansas at Little Rock, Hybrid Rocket Lab 
575 ETAS, 2801 S. University, Little Rock, AR 72204 (501) 569 8442 fax-8020

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Date: Thu,  6 Jul 95 09:13:53 PDT
From: kpnadai at adsnet.com
Subject: Coed Naked Brewing

>From: John DeCarlo               <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org>
>Subject: Proper Sanitation

>Hmmm,

>We all (or at least some of us) have probably wondered about the role our 
>own bodies play in sanitation.  Should we sanitize our hands and what about 
>loose hairs falling in--hair nets?  Your imagination is the limit.

>Anyway, due to recent summer-time activities, I believe I have the perfect 
>answer:

>Sanitize yourself by swimming at least 15 minutes in a chlorinated swimming 
>pool!  Then you immediately start brewing!

Nope.  You aren't done yet.  Swab your entire body with iodophor,
then brew naked like a tanned savage in the brush.

- ------------------------->  In other news...  <-----------------

What yeast did I steal from the bottom of a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale?

What yeasts are used in commercial bottle conditioned beer?

Brew Bayou,

Kevin


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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 11:01:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Marzewski <ca385a19 at nova.umuc.edu>
Subject: "Kegging", the way to go!

Someone asked about their new system and said they were told to carbonate 
at 40 psi for 4 days, then serve at 6 psi...  


Most people don't realize that if you do a really quick force carbonation 
such as shaking the keg for 15 min then serving, you'll to get larger 
bubbles.  I only need 40 psi for 2 days max, even after 1 there is 
carbonation.  The shop that suggested so much carbonation was making up 
for their mistake of the lines they use and low pressure used to serve.

The average brewer wants about 12 psi in their beer (around 40F), so one 
needs to keep the product at 12psi or so while serving.  If you use 5/16, 
1/4, 1/2 or 3/8" lines you'll notice that 12 psi or greater will give you 
a mug of foam (only good for shaving).  Instead of using miles of serving 
lines, just use  3/16" tubing.  It causes 3 psi of pressure per 1 ft. of 
lenght. What I mean is: 4 feet of 3/16" tubing will need about 12 psi to 
make a nice full pour and not over foam, thus keeping the carbonation in 
your beer right! So, 3/16" = 3 psi per foot of line, 1/4 and up need much 
greater lengths for that much pressure.  

Try a lessor, 25-35 psi for 2-3 days and you'll get a finer carbonation.
Also, I leave my CO2 and reg outside  of the fridge and notice it lasting 
almost twice as long...

 Tap to it!

Cheers

Eric Marzewski
ca385a19 at nova.umuc.edu 

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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 95 10:43:16 EDT
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: Re: Lauter Flow, Brewing 2 batches



Hi All,

  In HBD#1774, Dave Bradley asks:

>What is the affect of starting and stopping the flow from the lauter
>    tun during the initial recirculation period?
>
>My "technique" has been to stop the slow flow while returning the
>    still cloudy sweet wort already collected back the top of
>    the grain bed, and pseudo-clarity seems to take more time
>    for me to achieve than for others (all-grain time thread).

   FWIW, what I do is place a 3 quart saucepan inside a 5 gallon pot, and
run the wort into the saucepan. When there's about 2 quarts in the saucepan,
I return the cloudy wort to the top of the tun, taking care to disturb the
grainbed as little as possible, while the wort continues to run into the
larger pot. When the runoff starts to clear, I return whatever wort is in
the larger pot to the top of the tun.
   While the wort is being runoff, pressure is generated inside the lauter
tun that helps set the grain bed. Try the "pot inside a pot" method, keep
the runoff going while recirculating, the grain bed should set a little
faster.

**********************************************************

  In HBD#1774, Pete Bronder asks:

>I'm considering brewing two consecutive batches, different styles but
>one right after the other.  I would use the same equipment (stockpot,
>thermometer, hydrometer, spoon, etc.) and only rinsing (not sanitizing)
>between batches.  Is this a bad idea?
>
>Just looking for a short cut,  Pete

   Not sure what sort of equipment you have, but brewing consecutive
batches back to back is certainly not a bad idea. It builds up one's beer
supply quickly, is a lot of fun, and shouldn't present any sanitation
problems.
   My brewing partner and I recently brewed a 12 gallon batch of steam beer
and a 10 gallon batch of bitter "back to back". We maxed out my 1/2 barrel
mash/lauter tun with 33# of grain, collected about 7 gallons with an OG
in the high 1.080s in a converted Sankey keg, topped it off with pre-boiled,
still-hot water, and started the boil. Meanwhile, we continued sparging
into a second Sankey. During the 90 minutes or so it took to boil and chill
the first batch, we completed sparging and started boiling the second batch.
The first batch was racked and pitched while the second finished boiling,
so we were able to use a single wort chiller, just rinsed it off in between
batches. While the second finished boiling, we cleaned up the mash tun,
hot liquor tank, and the first brewpot. By the time the second batch was
chilled and pitched, we had about 90% of the cleanup already finished.
   The net result of all this was 12 gallons of 1.050 steam beer, and 10
gallons of 1.042 bitter. It only took about 7 hours, since we were able to
overlap so many of the "dead times" inherent in the brewing process, i.e.,
we did only one mash, sparged the second while boiling the first, etc.
   I'd say go for it, Pete.

**********************************************************

   Kirk Harralson writes:

>     I've recently seen posts recommending forced carbonation at 40-60 psi.
>      I am just assembling a draft system, and trying to find as much good
>     information as possible.  My fittings are very simple:  3/16" id vinyl
>     tubing over hose barbs with a standard automotive type hose clamp.
>     The person at the shop I bought these at told me not to exceed 25 psi.
>      Do other people have better fittings, or was he just being too
>     conservative?

   It might not be the fittings, but the hose itself. I use 3/16" ID
"pressure tubing", the walls of the hose are very thick, and have applied over
40 psi with no problems. If you're using the standard poly or vinyl tubing,
I'm not sure how much pressure it'll withstand, as I've never used it in my
kegging setup. The kegs themselves are typically rated at ~150 psi, and the
pressure relief valve in the lid, if the keg is so equipped, is about 60 psi.
A warning not to exceed 25 psi does seem too conservative.

>                           Also, for the people who keep their CO2 tanks
>     outside the fridge:  How do you run the gas-in line into the fridge?

   I don't keep my CO2 tank inside the fridge, I'm concerned about possible
damage to the regulator from condensation. What I do is apply about 40 psi
immediately after kegging, then place the keg in the fridge and chill it.
Over the next 4-5 days, I simply put 25 psi on the keg twice a day, and
maintain it at 45F. I then drop the pressure to dispensing levels and tap.
The beer is nicely carbonated, and the 4-5 days of cold conditioning does
wonders to improve clarity. Also, if I've dryhopped the batch, the 4-5 days
provides time for the hop nose to develop.

           Cheers,
            Jim               dipalma at sky.com

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Date: Thu, 06 Jul 95 09:24:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: CO2 Questions


RE: 1774 Kirk Harralson asked about CO2 pressures and tanks outside the 
fridge:

I'm using the thick-walled red gas line with 3/16" ID, and the clear 3/16" 
ID vinyl
beverage line (Foxx).  I *think* the beverage line is rated to 35 psi, so 
the red
thick-walled stuff should be reasonably expected to handle much higher 
pressures
than that.  I can't remember what it's marked.  Also, the stainless steel 
band clamps
you refer to can certainly take more than 25 psi.

As far as pressurizing the beer, I know many folks claim to use as much as 
35 psi
for carbonating, then they reduce the pressure to 10 or so dispense.  Once 
again,
I can only imagine others prefer more highly carbonated beer than I do--12 
psi
at 50-55F works perfectly FOR ME for both carbonating and dispense.

As for getting a CO2 line into the fridge: I find there is no need to do 
this at all.  I
pressurize the 4 kegs in my freezer chest to 12 psi, waiting for the gas to 
stop
flowing, then remove the gas line from the keg.  From time to time I simply 
open
the valve on my CO2 tank, and plug the line into each keg for one minute or 
so,
doing each keg in turn.  All four kegs get a refresh charge for dispense, 
the tank
stays outside the fridge, and no mods to the fridge are needed.

In general, I find the CO2 gear for soda kegs to be kinda leaky--it seems to
require a lot of fussing and I personally don't trust them to hold gas well. 
 I feel safer
putting the charge on the keg, then removing all the lines and shutting off 
the CO2
tank at the main valve.  It's not the poppets on the keg that are suspect so 
much as
all the connecting junk.

KRF Colorado Springs

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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 95 08:50:03 PDT
From: kens at lan.nsc.com (Ken Schroeder)
Subject: Drinking Iodophor

Making cocktials of idophor? If it is the same Iodophor we use, with
the bottle labeled Iodophor BTF, go right ahead. When I introduced this
product to my chemist wife, she insisted that it need to be rinsed. She
then read the instructions and decided to do some research on the
toxicity of the solution. She determined that if you drank the entire
one quart bottle, undiluted,  you would get on hell of a belly ache, but 
no, you won't be pushin' hop plants from six feet under. The concentration
levels are not high enough on most iodine solutions I've seen used in
brewing or the resturant businesses to cause premature death. Might cause 
baldness but you would be protected from low level radation limph gland 
poisioning.  Warning : This doen't mean that some products are at higher 
concentration levels.

Aaron, as far as using Iodophor for sanitizing drinking water? I dunno. 
But may I suggest a water filter? Cost as much as the Iodophur (First Need), 
you can get a lot of drinking water thorugh it and it doen't weigh much. I
can't handel that iodine taste anyway. (points deduction by the AI robot
for writing about non-brewing subject)

Ken Schroeder
Sequoia Brewing

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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 09:23:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Hanna <hanna at chem.ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: Coffee Stouts

Just had a very pleasant experience with a coffee stout 2 batches back.  MMMM
its yummy.  Kind of like a legal speedball.  Anyway the gist of it is I added
6 cups of brewed coffee to a 2.5 gallon batch after the boil.  The 
results are a fantastic aroma and a coffee aftertaste.  If you are 
looking for a more pronounced coffee character, use more coffee.  Maybe 
as much as 8-10 cups.  I used Peet's Major Dickensons Blend which is a 
marvalous dark roast.  I wouldn't use any of the more subtle lighter 
coffees (Kona, Blue Mountain, etc).  I can't remember my grain bill 
either... Sorry...


Steve Hanna
Brewer and Chemist

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Date: 6 Jul 1995 13:57:03 U
From: "Miller Eric" <Miller.Eric at mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Subject: Re: Souring/Dumplings

Rob in Montreal (Robert_Ser at ceo.sts-systems.ca) asks about souring beer:

> is there a better way to control the 'type' of souring that
> will occur? Are there some bacterial cultures that can be obtained
> to control this process?

I used "lacto-capsules" from Aeonbrau to sour a Wit.  Worked well.  To
use them you just put aside a gallon of PRE-HOPPED wort to which you
have added a tablespoon of dry condensed milk.

Two weeks later you'll have a gallon of lactic acid beer.  Boil it and
add some of it to your main ferment.  I used the whole gallon in my Wit;
sounds like you can probably knock it back to a pint for your Guinness
clone.

I don't have Aeonbrau's latest address.  The owner, Dr. Brian Nummer,
recently moved to Athens, GA to open a brewpub.  If anyone has the new
address, please post it.

- -----

Jeff Frane <gummitch at teleport.com> and Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
talk about dumplings:

> > The break started as flakes, then strings, then cottage cheese like
> > curds.  By the time I added spices and flavor hops (after one hour), I
> > had dumplings!
>
> I wouldn't have described them as "dumplings", but I did get great huge
> grey chunks of what looked kind of like latex a number of years ago with
> a wheat beer.

My Wit (50% unmalted wheat, 10% Quaker oatmeal) produced big gooey egg-drop
soup sorts of threads.  I also made a Stout earlier this year in which I
used 10% roasted barley and 25% unmalted barley.  For the unmalted barley
I ended up using 1 lb. of barley flakes and about a 1 1/2 lb. of barley
grits from a health food store.  This wort was a producer of big floating
oily black slime globs.  I thought for sure they'd show up in the finished
product, but everything turned out fine; it's got the smoothest, creamiest
mouthfeel of any beer I've made.

Given the relationship between ingredients and goo clumps, I'd have to put
my money on them being coagulated protein.

Eric

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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 19:26:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: Kenneth K Goodrow <goodrow at orion.etsu.edu>
Subject: Carboys, wives, hammers, and drugs.


O.k., who is it that is buying up all the carboys at the Corning glass 
outlets?  I know you can get them for 10-15$, but leave some for the rest 
of us.  This seems like a great place to shop for carboys, but doesn 
anyone else have any ideas on where to get these glass jobbys for cheap?

I am wondering how your wives/significant others react to your 
homebrewing?  Myself?  Well, my wife loves the beer and has come to grasp 
a broad knowledge of brewing terminology to the extent that she has 
flabergasted many miller drinking men (notice the small "m" in miller :)  
).  She hates the boiling mess, though, and the wort stains in the carpet 
(I am still trying to get them out -- any ideas?).  My wife got into the 
act by creating her own liquors -- pretty good ones, berrys and all (she 
got the recipes from Victoria magazine.

About hammers.  I forgot to mill my boiling grains at the supply store 
soI ended up giving them a few good strikes with the hammer while they 
flacidly rested in cheesecloth bags (homestitched) on the old kitchen 
table.  Unorthodox, yes, but I am drinking the beer now and it tastes 
great.  No, I'm not one of those homebrewers who can concoct a batch 
blindfolded.  Anyone else have a hammer experience?  Any other ideas on 
these "emergency" situations and what to do?

Drugs -- there were a few messages a while back on the snags that brewery 
establishers have run into and that the drug status of alcohol has thrown 
a wrench into the perception of drinking and selling beer (especially in 
the south -- oops, I didn't capitalize the "s" in South).  Well, I just 
want to voice my frustration with the puritanical archetypes that 
dominated the simplistic thoughts of so many of our fellow-Americans.  
This country was founded by men (and women, I'm sure) who brewed, and 
who, yes, consumed theirs and others' creations.  And these men and women 
were religious, most attending services every week and many writing on 
their religious convictions.  So ironic that in this "modern" society we 
have so many who gasp at the thought of homebrewing as if it is illegal 
as well as satanic.  Now, I am religious, attend church every week, etc. 
ad infinitum (not trying to toot my horn), but there just isn't a 
Biblical proof against alcohol (a proof-text yes, but proof no) and its 
consumption.  In fact, as I recall, the Bible talks about a little wine 
for the heavy hearted -- I'm sure this applies to beer, too.  Moderation 
is emphasized, but prohibition, no.  I am tired of hearing about 
alcoholism, prohibition, and the bias against beer drinking as if it was 
the alcohol which caused the problems stemming from hyper-comsumption.

Reactions?  I am wondering how many of you are religous, believe in God, 
etc., and homebrew?  What are your thoughts?  I know this is not a 
technical part of homebrewing, but holistically, the 
spirituo-psychological aspects are part of the whole.  What's your view 
of the gestalt?

Cheers for Beers,

Kenn Goodrow
East Texas State University
"Psycho-therapist in training"


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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 21:42:06 -0500
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Dusseldorf - Part 1

Dusseldorf

This is the seventh in a series of posts on the formulation
of waters similar to those of famous brewing cities of the world. They
are based on ion concentration profiles given by Dave Draper in
his post in #1704 (10 April 95). See my  post "Water Series" (#1763) for
explanatory material (correction: in the Line 3 explanation read 1.8 ml of
1 N sulfuric acid, not 18 ml). Quick reminders: all ion concentrations and
salt quantities are in ppm which is the same as mg/l. The water to
which the salts are added is assumed to be ION FREE (i.e. it is
DISTILLED WATER or REVERSE OSMOSIS WATER).

Dave did not give a reference for this profile. The profile does not
specify magnesium or carbonate. Given this we set carbonate to 60 ppm
and let magnesium float. When we do this (as is the case with potassium
in all the cases we have done) we count each ppm of the ion as a percent
error. The algorithm returned Formulation I:

Formulation I

 pH 7.00;   no external acid;   Minimum salts
 n:    820000   Temp:    0.000988   Energy (rms %):    2.709810
Accepted:    34  Rejected: 9966 n_sol:      0 n_0:     0  n_hyd:     0

Dusseldorf      Desired Cations:  3.083   Anions:  3.741 mEq/L Ratio: 1.213
ION       WT    DESIRED    REALIZED    ERR, %     SALTS            AMOUNT
Ca       1.00    40.000      40.703      1.76     NaCl             32.789
Mg       1.00     0.000       6.467      6.47     Na2CO3.10H2O      0.000
Na       1.00    25.000      25.211      0.84     CaCL2             0.000
K        1.00     0.000       1.857      1.86     CaSO4.2H2O       95.945
CO3      1.00    60.000      59.666     -0.56     CaCO3            45.873
SO4      1.00    80.000      79.088     -1.14     MgCL2             0.000
Cl       1.00    45.000      44.618     -0.85     MgCO3             0.000
H        1.00     0.650       0.650      0.00     KCl               3.541
                                                  Na2SO4            0.000
                                                  MgSO4.7H2O       65.548
                                                  H2SO4             0.000
                                                  NaHCO3           44.998
                                                  HCl              23.711

Carbonic:  0.1922   Bicarbonate:  0.8013   Carbonate:  0.000384 mM
Total Required Hydronium:  0.6502   Sulfuric Hydronium:  0.0000 mEq
Hydrochloric Hydronium:  0.6502 mEq
H2SO4 perturbed. HCl adjusted to maintain pH  7.00
Solubility Products - CaCO3: 8.70E-09   MgCO3: 2.60E-05
Ion Products        - CaCO3: 3.90E-10   MgCO3: 1.02E-10
Alkalinity:     0.79 mEq;      39.59 ppm as CaCO3.
Temporary hardness:      1.99 mEq;     99.39 ppm as CaCO3
Permanent hardness:      0.58 mEq;     28.75 ppm as CaCO3

Modest amounts of epsom salts and potassium chloride are used as sources of,
respectively, sulfate and chloride. The formulation is quite good with respect
to the other ions. It is based on the simple salt set and is for pH 7. The
minimal amount of magnesium seems acceptable (even Plzen had 3-5 ppm) and the
epsom salts are a source of sulfate.

You will notice a new column labeled "WT". This is the weight applied to the
error in the particular ion when calculating the rms error. For each ion the
error is computed, then squared, then multiplied by the weight. The products
are summed and the square root taken. In this case all the weights are equal
(to 1) and so all ions are equally important. In some cases (for example
Edinburgh 1) we vary the weights.

Formulation II is a synthesis for pH 6.38:

Formulation II

pH 6.38;   no external acid;   Minimum salts
n:    830000   Temp:    0.000971   Energy (rms %):    1.448678
Accepted:    10  Rejected: 9990 n_sol:      0 n_0:     0  n_hyd:     0

Dusseldorf      Desired Cations:  3.083   Anions:  5.020 mEq/L Ratio: 1.628
ION       WT    DESIRED    REALIZED    ERR, %     SALTS            AMOUNT
Ca       1.00    40.000      40.306      0.76     NaCl             24.307
Mg       1.00     0.000       3.449      3.45     Na2CO3.10H2O      0.000
Na       1.00    25.000      25.126      0.51     CaCL2             0.000
K        1.00     0.000       1.040      1.04     CaSO4.2H2O      117.914
CO3      1.00    60.000      59.902     -0.16     CaCO3            32.109
SO4      1.00    80.000      79.425     -0.72     MgCL2             0.000
Cl       1.00    45.000      44.742     -0.57     MgCO3             0.000
H        1.00     0.820       0.820      0.00     KCl               1.984
                                                  Na2SO4            0.000
                                                  MgSO4.7H2O       34.960
                                                  H2SO4             0.000
                                                  NaHCO3           56.880
                                                  HCl              29.892

Carbonic:  0.4989   Bicarbonate:  0.4989   Carbonate:  0.000057 mM
Total Required Hydronium:  0.8196   Sulfuric Hydronium:  0.0000 mEq
Hydrochloric Hydronium:  0.8196 mEq
H2SO4 perturbed. HCl adjusted to maintain pH  6.38
Solubility Products - CaCO3: 8.70E-09   MgCO3: 2.60E-05
Ion Products        - CaCO3: 5.76E-11   MgCO3: 8.12E-12
Alkalinity:     0.49 mEq;      24.43 ppm as CaCO3.
Temporary hardness:      2.00 mEq;     99.79 ppm as CaCO3
Permanent hardness:      0.30 mEq;     14.96 ppm as CaCO3

 -MORE-

A.J. deLange   Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel at interramp.com



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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 21:42:11 -0500
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Dusseldorf - Part 2

A little less of the potassium and magnesium salts are used in this
formulation with the results that the concetrations of those ions
are somewhat lower.

Once again carbonate can be adjusted by controlling
pH via dissolved CO2. Using Formulation I, aerating saturated water to
various  pH's sets the total carbonate to the levels indicated in the
table below.

                        pH                      CO3,ppm
                   6.00                  179
                   6.38                  105
                   6.76                   75
                   7.10           63
                   7.52                   57

In #1772 Steve Alexander commented on the fact that R.O. water is not
100% ion free and this is true. Nor for that matter is distilled water.
Naturally the question arises as to what the effects of the residual ions
will be on a water synthesised from a base water with some ion content
when we have assumed that the water we started with is ion free. In most
cases there should be no problem and this statement of course depends on
how many ions are passed by the system. The particular system I use is a
Culligan home system which is specified to reject 99% of the sulfate, 98%
of the calcium and magnesium, 97% of the sodium, 96% of the chloride
and 95% of the carbonate. My front-end processor is a typical home ion-
exchange softener which gives me water with 8.5 ppm chloride, 150 ppm
bicarbonate, 24 ppm sulfate, and 77 ppm sodium. The RO water should con-
tain 2.3 ppm sodium, 7.7 ppm bicarbonate and everything else should be
below 0.5 ppm. These amounts are not significant in any of the formulations
we have looked at so far. They would represent a reasonable percentage error
in Plzen water but for that water the percentage is not so important as
the absolute level i.e. if the formulation calls for 2 ppm sodium from
water which is ion free and we use water which is at 2.3 ppm we wind up
with water at 4.3 ppm which is over 100% error but 4.3 ppm is still not
a significant amount of sodium. It is beginning to look as if bicarbonate
is something that we set by adjusting the pH with carbonic acid and thus
something we do not worry too much about. Anyone who is contemplating in-
stalling an RO system should, of course, have an analysis of the water to
be run through it at hand or, better still, an analysis of the water out
of the RO unit.

Mark Lubben wrote asking whether use of phosphoric acid as an external acid was
really a good idea. He had seen that phosphate will precipitate calcium phos-
phate and wondered what the solubility product was for this salt. I confess I
had not looked this up. The value is 2.07E-33! A sample calculation shows
that if 1 mEq of external acid is called for and phosphoric used that the
saturation
level for calcium is about 2 ppm. Thus phosphoric acid is NOT a good choice for
an external acid except perhaps for Plzen water (which has little calcium and
requires very little external acid). Thanks to Mark for bringing this to our
attention.

 -END-

A.J. deLange   Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel at interramp.com



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Date: 6 Jul 95 10:09:00 -0500
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: FREE Belgian Beer Tasting

If you will be in the Chicagoland area this Saturday (July 8th), there will be
a FREE Belgian Beer tasting at Mainstreet Deli and Liquors, 5425 South LaGrange
Road, Countryside.  Call 708-354-0355 for more information or directions.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1775, 07/07/95