FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  My pumpkin mash from hell (ESMPD)" <gcunning at Census.GOV>
  Mellanoids, diluting HG brews, etc (Steven Lichtenberg)
  St. Pats/Gadgets/Misc. ("Edmund C. Hack")
  High temp ferment question (Chris Cooper)
  Microbrewery Opinions? ("Dave Bradley::IC742::6-2556")
  Hunter Zeners ("Thomas W. Ausfeld")
  More on labels (John DeCarlo              )
  Open Letter from Wyeast (Jeff Frane)
  Thoughts on zinc & copper ("Robert Waddell")
  RE: Yeast sludge and yeast starters (Mario Robaina)
  yeast starters (Robert G. Parker)
  Apology: RE "US" HBD (Kirk Fleming / Metro Technologies)
  Kasteel/bottleSoaking/fruit&3068/lautertun design/long boil/pitch timing (Algis R Korzonas)
  Lazy man's wheat (Matt_K)
  Malt vinegar ("James Giacalone")
  Keg Modification Question (Rich Larsen)
  Volatiles removal/High temperature boils (Philip Gravel)
  Paint Stirrers (Brian Geiger)
  Working with Agar Slants (SRCINQ)
  Re: boil times (RobHaiber)
  Re: Kemper Wit Q (RobHaiber)
  Temperature increases (Jeff Stampes)
  Liene's ICE?!/ Wyeast 1968 ("BARRON, GRAHAM LARS")
  Heating Gott mash/Aerating hot wort/Lack of body (Philip Gravel)
  priming sugar questions ("Alex R.N. Wetmore")
  MY LATEST BATCH (Ian Bishop)
  KEGGING (Ian Bishop)
  HOMEBREW DIGEST #1827 (SE (Ian Bishop)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 09:34:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Jerry Cunningham (ESMPD)" <gcunning at Census.GOV>
Subject: My pumpkin mash from hell

Ed asked about pumpkin beer:

>I am in search of other recipes/methods for pumpkin beer and would like 
>to hear other experiences with pumpkins.
 
For some reason (I must have been sober) recently I decided to try a 
pumpkin ale - Papazian's recipe in THBC. The recipe called for a whole 
pumpkin (cooked), 6-row malt, and a protein rest. I decided to use canned 
pumpkin (Libby's 100% pumpkin), 2-row, and a single-step infusion.

What a friggin' mess.

I mash in a cooler with a copper manifold. I added the 11 lbs. of grain, 
4 cans of pumpkin (7.2 lbs.) to the cooler (oops, I mean mash-tun). Then 
I added the strike water (about 1 - 1.25 quarts/ pound of grain). (The 
original recipe said to do the protein rest with just grain, then add the 
pumpkin and water to bring it to conversion temps.) It took me forever to 
stir this thick gook together and I lost alot of heat - I ended up ~140F 
when I was shooting for mid 150's. Maybe it would have worked better if I 
added the grain/gook mixture to the water.?

O.K. - so I managed to raise the temp to the upper 140's with boiling 
water infusions over the next 1 - 1.5 hours (don't ask). I mashed for a 
good 1.5 - 2 hours cuz of the lower temps. I was feeling a bit better as I 
got to the sparge, it cleared up nicely with about 3 qts. recirculated. 
Then my sparge stuck (the first time). At this point I was thinking 
"Maybe there was a *reason* to use 6-row?" - more husk maybe? I don't know.
So I scooped out all 18 lbs of slop, and clean/reassemble my manifold, 
and scoop all 18 lbs. of slop back into the cooler (oops, I mean lauter-tun).
I'm getting pretty good at this, as my last batch stuck also. I 
collected maybe another gallon over the next half hour and the sparge 
stuck again. Now I was cussing and swearing and promising to give up 
brewing altogether. I aerated the hell out of the mash while scooping out 
the mash again - I also tried sucking on the hose to get the sparge going 
(I wasn't thinking all that clearly). I managed to finish sparging and 
was so pissed off I added a pound of extract. 

I don't know how people sparge with this pumpkin stuff in the mash. Any 
hints? How fermentable is pumpkin anyway? And how come 2 friggin' vanilla 
beans cost $6.50?!! 

My first and last pumpkin ale _is_ fermenting away very nicely, however.

Good luck pumpkin brewers,

 - Jerry Cunningham
  Annapolis, MD

p.s. I have 1 vanilla bean for sale, if anyone's interested ;*)







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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 09:35:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven Lichtenberg <steve at inet.ttgva.com>
Subject: Mellanoids, diluting HG brews, etc

Greetings--
I have been following the discussion on high pressure boiling and 
mellanoid creation and thought I would comment.  Before I started writing 
databases, I worked for many years as a chef and received degrees in both 
nutrition and culinary arts.  In the process I had to study a great deal 
of food science.  The browning reactions responsible for the cration of 
mellanoids is called a Maillard reaction and occurs in most cooking 
processes.  This is the same reaction that causes toast to brown and 
grilled meats to obtain their characteristic color.  The reaction is 
almost entirely dependent on temperature and time, the presence of oxygen 
will hasten the reaction some as well.  This is the reason 
that food cooked in the microwave does not brown.  I would then assume 
that bringing boiling wort to temps above boiling will in fact increase 
the reaction and the melanoid formation but could be controled 
(minimized?) by keeping the wort at this temperature for short periods 
of time.  Of course, there are other reactions involved in boiling wort 
(protein coagulation DMS removal etc) that could be effected differently.

On the subject of diluting high gravity beers to get lesser beers, I do 
this regularly with no problems.  I have tried both fermenting at high 
gravity and doing high gravity boils and diluting before fermantation 
with much success.  I prefer now to do the latter as it seems to give 
better head retention and body.  I use this technique often to get two 
different beers out of one kettle.  I can make a strong ale and a mild 
for example and still only have to do one mash and one boil.  The one 
caveat I do have though is that you are spreading the flavors thinner in 
the diluted beer and have to compensate in the secondary by either dry 
hopping or adding some other flavoring (fruit etc).




       **** ---- "There's always time for a Homebrew!" ---- ****
      O|~~| ------------ Steven Lichtenberg --------------- |~~|0
       `--'  ---------- steve at inet.ttgva.com -------------  `--'
              -------- Programmer/Analyst - TTG ---------
                 ---------- Alexandria, VA ------------
                  -----------------------------------
                  ENJOY LIFE--THIS IS NOT A REHEARSAL



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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 07:13:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Edmund C. Hack" <echack at crl.com>
Subject: St. Pats/Gadgets/Misc.

I have placed one order with St. Pats, for a Porter Kit and an immersion 
chiller. Ordered Tuesday, arrived Thursday, everything was correct. YMMV.
(Yeah, I know I could have built a chiller for about $10 less, but I had 
to look at it this way: I have limited time to devote to brewing - I 
could have spent Sunday PM getting the parts and building the chiller, or 
I could have brewed a batch of Porter. No brainer.) The chiller works 
well and the Porter kit came out quite well. Good instructions, the 
specialty grains came in a grain bag, used Wyeast Irish Ale yeast, came 
with a sheet of the ingredients list for all their kits.

A few new gadgets have arrived in town at the brew shops from Listermann 
and I'm looking for comments: First, a siphon starter - a little ball 
valve thing. Anyone used one of these? I used to use a 
similar-but-not-identical siphon starter in cleaning my aquarium, but it 
didn't work well. Second, a min-lauter tun/hopback. It is a 1 gal. or so 
food plastic pail with a Phalse bottom, tubing and clamp. It looks like 
it would hold a few pounds of grain for partial mash recipes. I'm doing 
partial grain batches rightr now, and sparging the grain in my colander 
suspended over a large pot is a real pain. This looks like it could make 
it a lot easier.

BTW, to those of you who have not done partial mash brewing, try it. It 
doesn't take that much longer and the beer is much better. I use Miller's 
method - I put the grain and heated water in a large Dutch oven, put 
it in an oven preheated to 150 degrees and wait about an hour. The mash 
stabilizes at about 154 degrees. I put the whole mess into a colander, 
sparge with preheated water, recirculate a bit to clear the runnings, put 
the wort into the brewpot with the extract and go on with the boil. The 
difference in the quality of the beer is quite noticeable. I have made a 
couple of ESBs and American Pale Ales this way and get better head and lace, 
more complex flavors and a richer mouthfeel. My first pale ale was all extract 
and was OK, but the partial mash beer are a real notch up. Not as good as 
Bass, Anchor or Young's, but I'm getting there.

Edmund Hack  \  "The great prince issues commands,
echack at crl.com \  Founds states, vests families with fiefs.
Houston, TX      \ Inferior people should not be employed."-regnaD kciN


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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:14:33 -0400
From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com>
Subject: High temp ferment question

Hello all, I have a question for the collective, I recently made a pale ale
using Wyeast London Ale yeast and left on a bussiness trip for a week, when
I returned I found my new brew fermenting at 78^F (my daughter had adjusted
the A/C vent in my fermetation cellar, a.k.a. the down stairs john, because
she thought it was too cold) and now I notice what I think are strong fussel
overtones, I have since restored the flow of cold air to the room but I am 
wondering if there are any steps I can take after the fact to improve this
brew's lot in life?  Any suggestions? TIA!

On another note, the recent labeling thread has missed another easy solution
that I have been using for my last 30+ batches with great results.  I print
my labels 4, 6 or 8 per page using a laser printer on plain paper and make
a simple glue from flour and warm water, dip the back of the label in the
paste and adhere to bottle using a wet paper towel to smooth out the label
and clean the bottle.  These labels have lasted up to 10 months (that's 
as long as I have erver managed to keep a home brew around) and they come off
cleanly with a little warm water.  About 2 tablespoons of flour with enough
water to make it soupy works great for.

Chris Cooper , Commerce Michigan    --> Pine Haven Brewery <--
ccooper at a2607.cc.msr.hp.com         --> aka. Deb's Kitchen <--
 


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Date: Wed, 06 Sep 1995 09:17:44 -0500 (EST)
From: "Dave Bradley::IC742::6-2556" <BRADLEY_DAVID_A at Lilly.com>
Subject: Microbrewery Opinions?


Anyone heard of "The Alcatraz Brewing Company"?  Its opening up soon
in a new mall in Indy, touted as "a restaurant and microbrewery" with
"brewing vessels visible through windows from the tables."
I hate to get excited about something potentially lame.  Info anyone?

Dave in Indy

From: BRADLEY DAVID A               (MCVAX0::RC65036)

To:   VMS MAIL ADDRESSEE            (IN::"homebrew at hpfcmgw.fc.hp.com")
cc:   BRADLEY DAVID A               (MCVAX0::RC65036)

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Date:          Fri, 8 Sep 1995 11:56:38 EST5EDT
From: "Thomas W. Ausfeld" <TOM at sp1.dhmc.dartmouth.edu>
Subject:       Hunter Zeners

Awhile back, there were people looking for the zeners in the Hunter 
temp control.  I talked with a few suppliers to see if I can get some 
of these for some one else, which I did.  Another supplier came 
through also, so I'm up to my eyeballs in 1N5359's. Actually only 25 
but I don't have a Hunter.  So....  If you need some, let me know and 
I'll send you some.  

Hoppy brewing!!  (and cooling)
Tom Ausfeld (TOM at SP1.dhmc.dartmouth.edu)
Newbury, Vermont

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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 95 12:07:55 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org>
Subject: More on labels

Here is what the *really lazy* do.  After all, bottling is already a pain.

1) Keep all the beer together in it's own cases right after bottling.
2) Write batch info on the caps of a quarter or so of the bottles.
3) Make some labels printed on a laser printer with plain paper.

4a) Just drink all your own beer and do nothing else.
4b) Give away the beer or have a party where you can't rely on the cap
    sitting on the beer, especially with champagne bottles.  Use milk or
    glue stick to stick on some labels.
4c) Consolidate batches to save space and write the batch info on every
    cap first.  Then you are ready to loop back to 4a or 4b.

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: Fri, 08 Sep 1995 09:21:41 -0700
From: jfrane at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Open Letter from Wyeast

>The following letter is being sent to the retailers who handle
>Wyeast's yeast strains.
>
>Sept. 5, 1995
>
>Dear Valued Customer,
>
>re: 3278 Yeast
>
>Please provide this notice to all customers of: Brewers Choice #3278B
>Yeast.
>
>This name change reflects the fact that this yeast culture is a blend
>of yeasts and not 100% of one particular strain.  The product has not
>changed; as many of you may know, certain Belgian beer styles require
>more than one yeast to make a good beer.  For several years we have
>produced this blend, because using 100% of one yeast would make an
>unapalatable beer. This item will remain available with a modified
>label as indicated.
>
>We are sorry if this has caused any inconvenience.  Please call or
>write to us if you have any questions or comments.
>
>Sincerely,
>Dave Logsdon
>
>
Jeff Frane
jfrane at teleport.com




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Date: 8 Sep 95 11:11:00 MDT
From: "Robert Waddell" <V024971 at Tape.StorTek.Com>
Subject: Thoughts on zinc & copper

Hi, all:

Some time ago someone asked about using a roll or two of pennies to weigh
down a hop bag in a boil and hoped to gain some benefit from the copper.
Someone else (sorry... don't remember names) responded that pennies were now
made with a lot more zinc than copper nowdays, so the benefits would be
negligable.  I also seem to remember reading either a post or some literature
by Maribeth Raines, Ph.D. from "Brewers Resource" that yeast need zinc to
propagate to sufficiant numbers.  So...  wouldn't it make sense to just go
ahead and use the pennies as a weight and a nutrient?  Should we be putting
a few in our yeast starters? (Sanitized, of course)

Perhaps some of the metals people out there could determine the amount of
zinc and copper in each penny and then figure out how much of each would
be going into the wort at any given pH thereby determining how many pennies
each batch would need for maximum propagation taking into account how much
of each of these nutrients are already available in different types of grain.

Maybe we could go back to the days of a REAL five cent glass of beer. #%^)

Robert (long live the zinc thread) Waddell
V024971 at tape.stortek.com


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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 10:24:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: sprmario at netcom.com (Mario Robaina)
Subject: RE: Yeast sludge and yeast starters


Someone asked about using yeast sludge for subsequent batches:  I've had 
good luck re-using the same yeast 5-6 times, and have heard others have 
re-used up to 10 times without ill effects.  Procedure I use: 
1> I "drop" my ales a day or two into the ferment (rack the wildly 
fermenting beer, without aeration).  This removes the beer and yeast from 
the trub.
2> At bottling or kegging time, I have a 1 gallon glass jug and funnel on 
hand, sanitized.
3> I rack the beer to the keg or bottling bucket, leaving a little 
beer behind (no more than usual: get as much as you can without sucking up too 
much muck).
4> Next, I swirl the stuff remaining in the carboy, so the yeast is 
suspended in what little beer is there, and transfer it to the jug.
5> I cover the jug with a sanitized piece of tin foil, before throwing 
the whole thing in the fridge; some prefer an airlock (if you do, be 
careful of suck-back as the air in the jug cools in the fridge).

When I'm ready to brew again, I bring the yeast back up to room temp, 
swirl the jug and pitch the whole lot.  Yeast can be safely stored this 
way for a couple of weeks (storing yeast under beer is very effective: 
yeast recovered from bottles can be brought back to life after many 
months in the bottle).  If the yeast is stored this way any more than a 
couple of weeks, a starter would be a good idea.

- --------------

Someone mentioned that pitching starters at high krausen is the best 
idea.  I have heard mixed reports on this, and personally think it's 
better to pitch just after the yeast drops out of solution.  Why?  Rumor 
has it that as the sugar levels in wort get close to nil, yeast realize 
they're not going to have much left to eat and "store up", gorging 
themselves before settling out.  Hence, when the yeast have just 
settled out on the bottom, they are likely to have the highest energy 
reserves.  Then, when they are pitched, they will have the energy reserves 
to build-up a healthy colony in their new (larger) environment.  Anyone 
want to back me on this?  In any event, I have had success pitching 
starters just after the yeast settle.

 -John
(or is it sprmari at netcom.com?)


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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:29:21 -0400
From: parker.242 at osu.edu (Robert G. Parker)
Subject: yeast starters

The question was raised about why yeast starters are beneficial since they
increase the 'bad guys' just as they increase the yeast count.  One reason
is that there is significant potential (in fact it's inevitable) for
introducing contaminants during wort handling prior to pitching.  If there
is a large yeast count from the starter with the (assumed) accompanying
larger bacteria count, the additional contaminants from wort handling have
a small effect on the yeast/contaminant ratio.  With no starter built up,
this ratio is significantly tipped in favor of contaminants by those
introduced from wort handling.

rob parker
parker.242 at osu.edu



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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 13:48:29 -0600 (MDT)
From: Kirk Fleming / Metro Technologies <flemingk at usa.net>
Subject: Apology: RE "US" HBD

I recently polled this HBD and the UK HBD requesting info about how
you ferment, etc.  In that request for info I mentioned I had posted to 
the "US and UK HBDs".

Well, one responder politely reminded me that this is not a forum limited 
to or set up for the primary or exclusive use of USA residents.  Had I 
been a little more sensitive/thoughtful I might have distinguished this 
HBD with 'the hp.com-based HBD' or something like that.

In any case, the damage is done, and if I offended anyone I sincerely 
apologize--it was unintentional. To all contributors/readers worldwide, I
hope you'll not judge other USA residents by my stupid mistake!

- -- 
 Kirk R Fleming / Colorado Springs / flemingk at usa.net

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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 95 15:30:14 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Kasteel/bottleSoaking/fruit&3068/lautertun design/long boil/pitch timing

Harlan writes:
>Maybe someone out there knows what the crap was in the bottle of Kasteel
>bier I had last night. The bottle was a champagne-type bottle (75cl) of the
>Belgian Ale (Kasteel bier, biere du Chateau, Produce of Belgium), alcohol
>11% vol., the date on the cork 8/93. As I poured the second glass, big
>chunks of some species of gelatinous crap glopped out of the bottle, and

Those chunks are mostly coagulated protein.  All beers that are high in protein
will eventually have some of that coagulate in them (although I've had some
very old barleywines (which I'm sure have a lot of proteins in them) that were
crystal clear).  Proteins come in many different sizes -- perhaps (speculating
now) if the brewer was not careful to break down the really big proteins, then
the chances of having these goobers are higher.

***

Don writes:
>     I must add my $0.02.  I  ALWAYS use computer printer labels. I go to the
>mega-computer store and buy the cheapest address labels I can find, usually
>5000 for about $12.  They practically fall off after soaking in dishwasher
>detergent for several hours (water as hot as my hands can stand) I usually

I'd like to add a word of caution here.  Dishwashing detergent is mostly
Sodium Carbonate (Washing Soda) and soking things in it (like bottles) will
cause a white precipitate to form on the items.  If you must soak, I would
recommend just soaking the *outsides* of the bottles.  I once soaked two
cases of bottles overnight in a Washing Soda solution and got that white
film.  I eventually got it off by soaking the bottles overnight in some lemon
juice solution.

***
Curt writes:
>I'm considering making a fruit weizen using Wyeast 3068 and some combination
>of rasberries/strawberries/apricots.   Has anyone tried this?  With some of
>the recent posts about the volcanic initial fermentation of 3068, I'm
>wondering if waiting to add the fruit to the secondary would be a better than
>adding it to the primary.  The last thing I want is a clogged blow-off tube
>and a fruit/wheat beer fountain in my basement...

Personally, I would avoid the 3068 for fruit beers.  This is the Weihenstephan
Wheat yeast and along with the banana esters it can also produce a lot of
clove/phenolic aroma.  I, personally, would not like the cloveyness in, say,
a raspberry or apricot beer.  You are right about putting the fruit in the
secondary.  Not only because of the clogging (you have to worry about it even
in the secondary) but because the initial fermentation's CO2 will scrub out
much of the fruit aroma.  You will maximize your fruit aroma by adding the
fruit in the secondary or at least after the main ferment has slowed down.
For more detail on using fruit in beer, I recommend the 1994 Zymurgy Special
Issue on Special Ingredients.  There are several articles on fruit in beer
in that issue.

***
Russell writes (quoting someone, sorry):
>> What's better:  vegetable steamer/grain bag, false bottom, copper manifold?
>> (Keep in mind cost as I need other items to make the move to all-grain.)

>I've heard manifolds are the best.  I use a false bottom with good results.
>I tried a grain bag once.  Once.

In the upcoming Zymurgy Special Issue, there is a writeup of an experiment
testing several different lauter tun designs.  There are other factors to
consider besides just what design, like grain bed depth, surface area (which
affects the rate of cooling) and volume of the underlet.  The results were
quite enlightening (aren't I a tease?).  I did the experiment mainly because
I wanted to know if all the theory I've been spouting had any practical merit.

Russ mentioned caramelization when responding to a question about the perils
of boiling more than 60 minutes.  There is one other factor: break formation.
Dr. George Fix wrote in his book that hot break forms rapidly during the first
60 minutes of the boil.  It continues to form (albeit at a slower rate) for
the next 1.5 to 2 hours.  Boiling longer than 3 hours has a tendancy to
re-dissolve some of the protein.  I would imagine that boil vigour would have
something to do with this, since I've read that some Belgian breweries
(I believe Liefman's used to be one of them) would simmer their wort overnight.

Russ also writes (quoting another poster):
>> 1)  When using starters, is it better to pitch settled slurry (sans "beer")
>> or to pitch the whole solution at high kreusen?

>High Kreuzen.  That's when the yeast are partying and ready for more wort.
>If you wait until they relax and settle to the bottom, you have to wake them
>up again, and that adds to lag time and reduces the effective pitching rate.

Carefull, Russ... you're just repeating what you've read in Papazian.  While
it is true that pitching at high kraeusen can result in the shortest lag times,
lag time is not always the best measurement of the health of a ferment. See
the  article entitled "Impact of Yeast-Handling Procedures on Beer Flavor
Development During Fermentation" by A.T.W. Pickerell, et. al.  In this article,
they reported that yeasts pitched with low glycogen levels (as would be the
case at high kraeusen) produced more sluggish ferments and the resulting beer
was higher in diacetyl, DMS, FG and acetaldehyde.  So, the bottom line is
that the quality of the ferment (and not the lag time) should be the measure
by which we choose the pitch timing and therefore yeast should be piched
when their glycogen levels are the highest (from when the yeast are just
beginning to settle to about two days after they have settled).

Al.

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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 16:44:22 est
From: Matt_K at ceo.sts-systems.ca
Subject: Lazy man's wheat

Hi all

I am looking for a recipe for a lazy man's wheat beer.  What I mean is 
that I don't really want to to a decoction mash (I like 1 step 
infusion mashes).  If anyone has any good recipes, I'd like to get my 
hands on them.

Many thank's

Matt
Montreal, Que.



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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 95 12:58:28 MDT
From: "James Giacalone" <JGiacalone at vines.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: Malt vinegar

Can anyone out there tell me how to make malt vinegar?
Is it the same culture as white vinegar?
TIA!

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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 12:51:36 -0500
From: rlarsen at squeaky.free.org (Rich Larsen)
Subject: Keg Modification Question

Hey all!

I'm in the process of modifying a Sanke Keg into a Mash/Lauter tun and 
another into a boil kettle.

What methods do you use to afix the plumbing to the keg?  I know you can TIG 
weld, but I recall something quite a while back about brazing, silver 
soldering, and/or compression fittings.

What kind of fittings do you use?  I'm leaning toward the compression or 
bulkhead fittings, but I'm not sure if they'll seal well.

I would like to drop the drain plumbing from the mash/lauter tun down out 
the bottom but fear the heat of the burner will damage any gaskets.

What say ye?

=> Rich <rlarsen at squeaky.free.org>
________________________________________________________________________
Rich Larsen, Midlothian, IL.  Also on HomeBrew University (708) 705-7263
"24 Hours in a day... 24 Beers in a case... Coincidence?"
________________________________________________________________________


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Date: Fri, 8 Sep 95 22:31 CDT
From: pgravel at mcs.com (Philip Gravel)
Subject: Volatiles removal/High temperature boils

===> Algis R Korzonas writes about removing volatiles:

>I'm afraid that I barely got a C in thermodynamics and it was quite a while
>ago, so I don't really understand the math and therefore cannot confirm or
>deny Charlie's info.  I would be interested if someone could verify that
>indeed "creating steam" is not important to "getting rid of unwanted volatiles
>like DMS."  Intuitively, I would say that it is important, but would be
>willing to be convined otherwise and learn something new.

There is a chemical process call steam distillation which is analogous
to what you describe above.  Basically, you use steam to drive off some
compound that is volatile and non-miscible with water.  This work for
chlorobenzene and water but not alcohol and water (because water and
alcohol are miscible).  To the extent that DMS is non-miscible with water,
steam would aid in its removal.

===> Charlie Scandrett discusses high temperature boils:

>Jim>I'd advise getting to 1 ATM as soon as a boil starts.  You will have 
>increased caramelization/melanoiden formation in a pressurized cooker and
>if hops are present this is a problem too.

>Is the caramelization/meloiden reactions mainly dependent on some temperature 
>where they accelerate, or just the total energy supplied per litre?

Should be temperature dependent, not heat input dependent.  The higher
the temperature, the faster the rate of the chemical reactions.

>The reason I ask this is that I picked up the pressure boiling thread from
>Alfa Laval, the mega brewery makers.
>
> "From the imtermediate tank, the wort is pumped and heated instantly to 150C 
>by steam at 6-8 Atmospheres pressure. The pressure of the wort is at a point 
>where the boiling point of water is above 150C. Direct steam injection results
>in an *excellent break*. i.e. Protein precipitation. After heating in the
>steam injector, the wort is held at 150C for two minutes.(Yes, Jim, they agree

[snip, snip, snip...]

>I suggest I heat the kettle quickly to 140C at 5 ATM (using steam injection) 
>and release the pressure after 2 minutes. This will flash cool the wort as
>heat is rapidly carried away by latent heat of vapourization until the new
>boiling point of 100C is reached.

In a continuous process such as the megabrewers employ, it is very easy
to almost instantaneously heat the wort to 150^C.  This is accomplished
with a jacketed pipe.  It the liquid in the pipe were to be vaporized,
it would be called flash vaporization.

For homebrewers employing a batch process, it is virtually impossible to
heat instantaneously.  Even if your intent is to only hold the wort at
140^C momentarily, the wort will spend a significant amount of time at
temperatures in excess of 100^C as you heat.  The time could possibly be
10 to 30 minutes.  This length of time at high (> 100^C) temperatures will
lead to significantly increased carmelization and melanoiden formation.

It's just a fundamental difference between continuous and batch processes.
An immersion chiller is batch chilling.  A counterflow chiller is contin-
uous chilling.  A different set of mathematical equations describe these
processes.  A continuous process has a time dependency whereas a batch
process has a quantity dependency.

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel   Lisle, Illinois               pgravel at mcs.com

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Date: Sat, 9 Sep 1995 09:17:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Geiger <geigb at ruby.ils.unc.edu>
Subject: Paint Stirrers

Rich Byrne wrote that he had used a paint stirrer to stir his wort.  I 
too have seen these stirrers in hardware stores, but have avoided using 
them.  The kind I have seen are made of two pieces of aluminum soldered at 
the bottom.  I have always assumed that the solder is lead-based.  Am I 
wrong? 

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Date: Sat, 9 Sep 1995 17:45:35 -0400
From: SRCINQ at aol.com
Subject: Working with Agar Slants

I'm too tight to buy a yeast culturing kit, but would love to know what the
directions that come with them have to say. Some of the kits speak of testing
to prove a sample is bacteria free. Sounds like a good idea, how's it done? 

Working with a microbiologist friend, I now have a slant of Wyeast 1056 and
an inoculation loop for free. I plan to send for a pack of 50ml sterile
centerfuge tubes for starting and for making more slants as neccessary. I
have a few questions for the collective:

1) Do I use an ordinary DME wort as a starter media?
2) How much yeast do I need to scoop off the slant to inoculate a 40ml volume
starter (one good scrape, or several)?
3) Can I go right up to a pint from the first starter, or is it important to
go a step at a time? (40ml to 250ml to pint)
4) Should I quit screwing around and by a kit?

Many thanks for any words of wisdom that can be offered.

Steve C

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Date: Sat, 9 Sep 1995 14:59:02 -0700
From: RobHaiber at eworld.com
Subject: Re: boil times

In #1825, rich.adam at mayo.edu (Adam Rich) writes:

>On a related note, why is it bad to boil the wort for more then 60
>minutes when makeing an extract-based beer?  When makeing >lighter ales
would I be well-advised to boil for only 30 minutes? 

I have had several (six) English commercial brewers instruct me to boil for a
full 2hr, waiting 30min into boil before doing one, and only one additon of
copper hops, at that mark. Of course, finish hopping and dry hopping are
separate issues. They adhere to this regardless DME or all-grain brewing.
I usually only have time to brew partial-mash batches, and never have
problems with too-dark beer (as per style). I only use light and/or extra
light DME, and adjust colour with chrystal, chocolate, &c malts. it must have
been at least 25 batches ago when last I used dark or x-dark DME.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Rob Haiber, Beer & Brewing Central admin/sysop (on Apple's eWorld network)

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Date: Sat, 9 Sep 1995 15:10:12 -0700
From: RobHaiber at eworld.com
Subject: Re: Kemper Wit Q

Pat,
I, too, found it (Kemper Wit) bland and dull, rather than refreshing.
However, it is much better than the god-awful WIT Amber, which is so laden
with cumin as to be almost undrinkable. In fact, it is. I've tried it three
times (my judging criterion), and I have yet to finish even one bottle's
worth.

Rob Haiber, Beer & Brewing Central admin/sysop

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Date: Sat, 9 Sep 1995 17:53:19 -0600
From: Jeff Stampes <jeff.stampes at Xilinx.COM>
Subject: Temperature increases


In #1827, Tim Fields notes:

>I was ready to buy a Gott because it should make it a no-brainer to 
>maintain temp.  What was pointed out to me that I had *not* thought through 
>is that, by using a cooler for a mash tun, I would be giving up the ability 
>to raise mash temp "easily" (eg by turning up the heat)

No problem Tim.  Remember, the name of the game is INFUSION mash...raise the
temperatures by infusing hot water into the mash!  I have a spreadsheet for
calculating exactly how much boiling water to add to a given grist to hit
the next strike temp, and I'd be glad to email it to you.

We just did a 10 gallon Barleywine today (along with a 5 gallon pale ale from
the second runnings) and it was all via adding boiling water to hit each temp
along the way.  Personally, I think it's easier to go from 122 to 152 by dumping
in 10 qts. of boiling water than it is to turn on the burners and start stirring
and temperature monitoring!

- -- Jeff Stampes -- Xilinx, Inc. -- Boulder, CO -- jeff.stampes at xilinx.com --
- -- "I'd rather you have your foot in your mouth once in a while than      --
- --     your head up your butt all the time" - A Marketing Guy             --

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Date:        Sat, 09 Sep 1995 21:49:27 EDT
From: "BARRON, GRAHAM LARS" <GBARRON at MUSIC.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Liene's ICE?!/ Wyeast 1968

Fellow zymurgists,

I have been away from the digest for two months now and couldn't read
all those old issues so I had to delete them in order to make room
in my box.  As an obvious consequence I couldn't read.  Therefore let
me make the humble apology if this has already been discussed.  If it
has, just simply ignore this part of the post.

I had the displeasure to see for the first time a few weeks ago
"Linenkugel's ICE".  No, that is not a misprint.  Now I have never been
that much of a fan of Linenkugel's products, and have always thought
that they lacked a little in flavor.  But this is only a personal
opinion and I know a LOT of you out there like their products, so
please no flames about this.  But what is going on?  While I do not
drink their beer, I have always at least respected Linenkugel for an
honest brewing history and making honest beers with some character.
And then comes this abomination!  This MUST be the Miller influence
and not the Linenkugel family, but still!  What are they thinking?
Can anyone explain this to me?  I am at a loss?  Needless to say I did
not find it necessary to try the beer.


On another issue about Wyeast 1968 (London ESB) and diacetyl.  I
recently brewed a batch of "ESB" using said yeast and got only minor
amounts of diacetyl production despite warm fermentation temps and
aeration of the wort.  I mention this because I have read so much about
the supposed huge amount of diacetyl production from this yeast and
I wanted to throw my experience in to the kettle.  YMMV of course.
I was reading a "Wyeast Profile Sheet" (I assume this is produced by
Wyeast Inc.) and it mentioned nothing about diacetyl and 1968.  It
did mention that the Irish ale yeast and the regular London ale yeast
would both produce "slight diacetyl."  I'm planning on a split batch
test as well between 1968 and the regular London yeast in the future
to see which really produces more diacetyl.  I'll be interested in
hearing the results of the test mentioned in the previous HBD.  Until
later, I am,


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Graham L. Barron         | "If you drink beer, you die.  If you      +
+ University of Georgia    |  don't drink beer, you die anyway.  So    +
+ Athens, Georgia, USA     |  you might as well drink it."             +
+ gbarron at music.cc.uga.edu |           -- Roger Briess                 +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Date: Sat, 9 Sep 95 22:18 CDT
From: pgravel at mcs.com (Philip Gravel)
Subject: Heating Gott mash/Aerating hot wort/Lack of body

===> Tim Fields mentions heating a mash in a Gott cooler:

>I was ready to buy a Gott because it should make it a no-brainer to 
>maintain temp.  What was pointed out to me that I had *not* thought through 
>is that, by using a cooler for a mash tun, I would be giving up the ability 
>to raise mash temp "easily" (eg by turning up the heat)

Steam injection works very nicely to heat a mash in a Gott cooler.
It's the same principle that's used in making cappuccino.

===> Rich Byrnes discusses stirring wort while chilling:

>Question for the collective, is my beer ruined?   I had a brainfart the last
>time I was in Home-Depot and bought an industrial paint stirrer, the kind that
>is 3.5 feet tall with a fluted impeller device at the bottom, and locks into
>a drill.  Anyways, using my trusty 50' immersion chiller, I waited til my wort
>was below 160F

[snip, snip, snip...]

>                   I occasionally brought the impeller above the surface to
>whip air into the cooling wort, I had a layer of foam on top that hop leaves
>were floating on, what a sight.

Stirring air into your wort while it's hot is not a good idea.  It will
lead to hot side aertion (HSA) and wet cardboard-like flavors.  You should
wait until the wort is cool (< 100^F) before aerating it.

===> Tim Hawkins asks about lack of body

>I am a new homebrewer and I have a problem with my latest (2nd)
>batch of beer. It is a nut brown ale and it seems to have a
>wonderful taste, but has no body. It's odd, because it has a strong taste,
>but at the same time tastes watery. The OG was about 1.055 and the final
>was about 1.011, which was about right.

Try adding a little (1/2 lb) of crystal, caramel, or malto-dextrine malt.
Crush these grains, put them in a grain bag, steep them in 170^F water
for 1/2 hr, add your malt extract, and continue on with your boil.

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel   Lisle, Illinois               pgravel at mcs.com

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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 03:03:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Alex R.N. Wetmore" <alexw+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: priming sugar questions

We bottled our beer a couple of days ago and noticed that there is
already some sediment forming on the bottom of the bottle (it looks
a lot like the priming sugar that we used).

To prime we added 3/4 cup of sugar to a pint of beer and heated it
up (didn't bring it to a full boil because the directions that we
had were not specific on this, but looking at papazian we think we
should have brought it to a boil).

Anyway, our question is if we should try and mix this sediment back
into each beer in case it is sugar that went out of suspension too 
early.  We would rather not end up with un-carbonated beer.

thanks,
alex


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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 95 23:14:47 EST
From: ibishop at tanus.oz.au (Ian Bishop)
Subject: MY LATEST BATCH


I have just cracked a bottle of my latest brew (which I actually 
submitted an article to the HBD about when the fermentation took 24 hrs 
to take off with 3 packets of rehydrated dry yeast) and think it may 
just turn into a real ripper. As such, I'm going to put my info up for 
analysis to see if anyone has done anything similar, and so if anyone 
wants to try it, they may.

"The Mix"

2 x 1.8Kg John Bull Draught Ale cans of extract
2 tablespoons of honey
approx. 250grams white sugar (Didn't have any dextrose handy)
2 x John Bull dry yeast (came with cans)
1 x Wander dry yeast (added after 24hrs inactivity)

Boil the mixture for 45mins-1hr. I think on reflection that I would 
have liked to add some bittering hops to my boil, but I have trouble 
getting them where I am (They have to fly about 4000kms to get here) and 
thus couldn't do it.  Strain into fermenter & Top up to usual 23 litres.

Here's where I got brave/foolish/stupid/adventurous/"had one too many 
homebrews!". Due to work commitments, as the fermentation slowed, I 
realized I couldn't bottle the beer for about 7 additional days. I was 
also without a secondary fermenter. My solution? Feed the yeast a bit 
more fermentable matter, viz:

1 litre water
200 grams white sugar
2 tablespoons honey
2 tablespoons Lyles golden syrup

This lot was boiled for about 40 minutes, and added to the fermenter 
through my airlock hole (I'm pretty sure it didn't get infected - tastes 
too good).

The bottle I have sampled is about 10 days bottled. It hasn't fully 
carbonated yet, but produces a lovely creamy white head when poured 
well. The flavour will no doubt mellow and blend as the conditioning 
happens.

I think I've created a monster (it's got a beautiful warm glow going in 
the back of my throat!)

Any suggestions as to best additional hops, ways to balance etc. without 
going to full grain, will be greatly appreciated. I do know that 
although I used some white sugar, I cannot taste a cidery character - 
lucky? or are the other ingredients to blame?

- --------------------------------------------------------------
>From the desk of Ian Bishop - The Mad Muso of Mount Isa, Aust.
   Please Direct All Flames to \DEV\NUL or 0:0/0 - Thanks!!

     All Real Replies to IBISHOP at TANUS.OZ.AU or 3:640/706
- -------------------------------------------------------------- 

- ---
 * RM 1.3 A1824 * Trombonist (n) : Successful Career Letting Things Slide.....

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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 95 23:14:46 EST
From: ibishop at tanus.oz.au (Ian Bishop)
Subject: KEGGING


To any Aussies out there on the HBD.

Can anyone point me in the direction of the cheapest source of a decent 
quality kegging system? I have reached the point where my beers are 
quite consistent and very drinkable, but with the weather conditions in 
Mount Isa I would like to brew 5-6 batches during winter and have 5-6 
kegs ready for summer. I would also greatly appreciate any other 
information you can provide about favourite suppliers etc., as I live 
far enough away from anywhere that a couple extra dollars postage is 
pretty insignificant in the overall scheme.

What I want (ok!, ok!  What I would <LIKE>!)  :
- -----------------------------------------------
Suppliers of full kegging systems (approx. prices would be good)
Suppliers of extra kegs (prices again)
quality ingredients suppliers (phone & fax numbers)

Private email is fine, unless someone has a particular objection. I am 
happy to summarise if the interest/responses are there.
- --------------------------------------------------------------
>From the desk of Ian Bishop - The Mad Muso of Mount Isa, Aust.
              I am "Asbestos Man" - Flame Away!

   Replies to ibishop at tanus.oz.au or ibishop at ozemail.com.au

- ---
 * RM 1.3 A1824 * Siix munce argo I cutn't spel teecher und noww eye is wun!!

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Date: Sun, 10 Sep 95 23:14:45 EST
From: ibishop at tanus.oz.au (Ian Bishop)
Subject: HOMEBREW DIGEST #1827 (SE


HH> "bloop, blooping" last more that 8 hours, or should I really try to
HH> look and see if I have a leak in the plastic carboy, or am I
HH> "worrying" too much.  So far the beer has been good.  Please post me
HH> personnally if you wish.

It has always been my philosophy that if the final product ain't broken, 
don't stuff about with that which makes it good. From my experiences, 8 
hours is an incredibly short fermentation - most of mine go minimum 7 
days at a 60-70 degree tamerature range.

My guess would be to check the main seal on your fermenter, and if that 
is good, the seal for your airlock. Those are the two areas that I've 
had most problems from. Just remember though, you like your beer the 
way it is - probably says there really cannot be much wrong.


- --------------------------------------------------------------
>From the desk of Ian Bishop - The Mad Muso of Mount Isa, Aust.
              I am "Asbestos Man" - Flame Away!

   Replies to ibishop at tanus.oz.au or ibishop at ozemail.com.au

- ---
 * RM 1.3 A1824 * MyProg v.1 * Eval Day 1,094,583,217 * I Support Shareware!

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1828, 09/11/95