FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Road Dog Ale ("Glyn Crossno")
  aging in a carboy? (Larry Lowe)
  Fischer d'Alsace (levis)
  Slant Inoculation (hollen)
  Dangerous chemical in beer (Rolland Everitt)
  Glassware (Rolland Everitt)
  Re:#1056 Problems (Suzette Smith)
  Wort Storage ("Michael A. Owings")
  ? REGARDING SUPPLIER(S) OF EQUIP (Gene Rafter)
  Brewing Programs (Bob Sutton)
  American Oak Brew (Bob Sutton)
  St. Amboise, Smithwick, Tartan, and Double Diamond's (Douglas Painter)
  The polls are closing ("Pat Babcock")
  /An experiment ("Pat Babcock")
  Doggy Styles and more. (Russell Mast)
  GLATT MILLS (Evan Kraus)
  But seriously, folks.... (Dan McConnell)
  SABCO experiences (DICKERSONP)
  hazelnut extract source? ("mike spinelli")
  Delayed yeast pitch (THaby)
  Dissolving oxygen; are iodophors safe? (Ulick Stafford)
  Re: Sanitizing Questions (Bob Sutton)
  FREE book! ("Jeffrey W. Van Deusen")
  Re:pseudo Easymasher (Regan Pallandi)
  "Complex unfermentable sugars": What are they? (Ken Willing)
  Styles (Algis R Korzonas)
  The HomeBrew Flea Market - Dump I ("Pat Babcock")
  Mason jars and positive pressure (Dick Dunn)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date:          Mon, 23 Oct 1995 10:42:16 CST
From: "Glyn Crossno" <CROSSNO at novell2.tn.cubic.com>
Subject:       Road Dog Ale

See last weeks _News_Week_.  My wife was telling me about see it, 
when all I had done was read it.

Glyn Crossno

Crossno at novell2.tn.cubic.com

Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or 
no influence on society.   Mark Twain  



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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 95 10:41:57 CDT
From: Larry Lowe <lnl at apwk01g3.abrfc.noaa.gov>
Subject: aging in a carboy?
Full-Name: Larry Lowe

to the collective wisdom,

  i am currently short on bottles (yes, i know, if i kegged i wouldn't have
 that problem) and one of the beers i am going to brew on wednesday calls for
 aging 4 to 6 weeks. my question is, can this be done in the carboy as 
 effectively as in a bottle. it seems logical to me. i would appreciate private
 e-mail as i am working evenings, and would not read the responses in the HBD
 'til wednesday night and i want to brew wednesday day. i will be happy to 
 report on the consensus if anyone wants.
 
 tia and hoppy brewing
 
- --
from: Larry N. Lowe
      NOAA, National Weather Service
      Arkansas-Red Basin River Forecast Center
      lnl at apwk01g3.abrfc.noaa.gov
      Off: (918)832-4109  FAX: (918)832-4101

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Date: Sun, 22 Oct 95 07:52:22 PDT
From: levis at xpoint.COM
Subject: Fischer d'Alsace

Over the weekend I had the good fortune to sample a beer from 
France called LaBelle from a brewery by the name of Fischer 
d'Alsace.  Quite nice !!

I would like to try and reproduce this at home.  Anyone out there
ever come across the recipe for this beer ???

Mike L.


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 08:46:46 -0700
From: hollen at vigra.com
Subject: Slant Inoculation

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted as well.


Could people please comment on the advantages/disadvantages of the two
methods of slant inoculation, smearing on top of surface vs. embedding
the loop into the agar?

thanks,
dion


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 11:47:00 -0400
From: af509 at osfn.rhilinet.gov (Rolland Everitt)
Subject: Dangerous chemical in beer



Dan McConnell warned us about the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide
in beer, but failed to mention the equally dangerous hydrogen
hydroxide!


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 11:45:13 -0400
From: af509 at osfn.rhilinet.gov (Rolland Everitt)
Subject: Glassware



Todd Gierman asks for information about large stemmed glasses
which he has been told are called schoopers (sp?).  He also asks
about the history of this type of glass.  I can't help with the
history, but I can tell you that around my neck of the woods,
these glasses are called schooners.


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 12:20:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Suzette Smith <SSMITH1 at drew.edu>
Subject: Re:#1056 Problems



                                        Date:     23-Oct-1995 12:15pm EST
                                        From:     Smith, Suzette
                                                  SSMITH1
                                        Dept:     FAC/STAFF
                                        Tel No:   (201)-408-3208

TO:  Remote Addressee                     ( _in%HOMEBREW at HPFCMGW.FC.HP.COM )


Subject: Re:#1056 Problems

I too have experienced problems with the September '95 batch of Wyeast 
#1056. I'd brewed a very light ale and it never cleared. I've brewed this 
recipe several times before and it usually is ready to bottle in 10 days 
and is a lovely pale color. This time it is a cloudy, darker color. It 
tastes a little "muddy". Not like dirt, but not the crisp clean flavor of 
the previous batches. 

I'm a little concerned since I decided to pitch a strong ale onto the 
dregs. It is cloudy too. I dumped some champagne yeast on top so we'll see 
what happens. The strong ale will be aged for over a year anyway, so maybe 
everything will eventually settle out.

Still, seems like something is up with September's #1056.

Suzette
Zoologist & Zymurgist

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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:44:10 -0700 (CDT)
From: "Michael A. Owings" <mikey at waste.com>
Subject: Wort Storage

I have just completed my first all-grain batch yesterday.  I had a lot of 
fun with it,  but given the amount of time involved,  it would be nice to 
be able to break up the brewing session over 2 days -- mash and sparge on 
one day,  boil, cool and pitch on another.

In order to do this,  I would need to be able to store the wort for some 
period of time without risk of substantial infection or oxidation of the 
wort.  Since I'm going to eventually boil the wort,  and can hold the 
stored wort pretty near freezing,  I'm assuming that infection is not a 
tremendous risk,  but oxidation might be.  So here's my plan:

1)  Mash,  sparge and collect the wort into a large,  sanitized glass
    carboy (s). 

2)  Purge any carboy head space with CO2 and cap w/ sanitized stopper.

3)  Place in brewing fridge and lower temp to near freezing.

4)  On boil day,  remove wort from fridge and boil w/ hops,  cool and 
pitch yeast as usual.

So waddaya think?  Will this work?  Have any of you tried this?  How long
can the wort be stored this way?  Could a bucket be used instead of a 
carboy?   

I'd like to be able to store the wort for at least a week.  A month would 
be better.  I guess even overnight storage would be helpful.  

Any comments,  tips,  alternative suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

   TIA -- mikey 

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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 12:07:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: Gene Rafter <grafter at creighton.edu>
Subject: ? REGARDING SUPPLIER(S) OF EQUIP

I WOULD LIKE OPINIONS ON ANY MAIL ORDER SUPPLIES FOR BEER EQUIPMENT.  I 
LIVE IN OMAHA, NE AND WE ONLY HAVE ONE HOMEBREW SUPPLY STORE.  THE 
SERVICE IS ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE AND THE PRICES ARE OUTRAGEOUS.  IF ANYONE 
HAS SOME INFO. OR SUPPLIER INFO FOR MAILL ORDER PLEASE LET ME KNOW.  
THANKS SO MUCH.

GENE 

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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 95 12:17 EST
From: Bob Sutton <BSutton_+a_fdgv-03_+lBob_Sutton+r%Fluor_Daniel at mcimail.com>
Subject: Brewing Programs




Text item: Text_1

LEE_BOLLARD at HP-Spokane-om2.om.hp.com stated:

>I rely on a couple brewing programs.  I use "Brewbe" to calculate infusion
>mash temps and water quantities.  I use "Brewers Calculator" for recipes and
>really like the way it PRINTS an entire recipe, including ingredients, mash
>details, water additions, boil, fermentation and tasting information, along
with
>NOTES for each of these on ONE PAGE.  NICE!

Where would I find copies of these programs. TIA

- ---     __o        Bob
- ------  \<,       (soon to be homeless on the information highway offramp)
- ----- ( )/ ( )
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 95 12:31 EST
From: Bob Sutton <BSutton_+a_fdgv-03_+lBob_Sutton+r%Fluor_Daniel at mcimail.com>
Subject: American Oak Brew




Text item: Text_1

Kris Thomas Messenger <kmesseng at slonet.org> said:

>European oak doesn't impart any flavour to
>the beer which is why the casks are used unlined. American oak
>however gives the beer a strong oak flavour - I've never tried it
>but have been told that the flavour can be overpowering.

Well I've tried American oak, chips that is, and I can sum it up thusly:
BIG MISTAKE !!!! :-(

I added about a half cup of oak chips to my secondary. I boiled these chips
three times (approximately 15 minutes/boil), before using. After 5 days I
bottled my IPA. One might characterize the flavor as "woody" <g>

For those of you wishing to get similar results, I would suggest you put a fresh
ground "chaw" of oak sawdust in your cheek as you enjoy your favorite brew.

Even my dog couldn't be coaxed to drink the stuff. Pssst...pass the Bud Light.

BTW, the "if operating systems were beers" post was a classic. Our IS staff is
still howling (never knew them to laugh before).

- ---     __o
- ------  \<,        Bob
- ----- ( )/ ( )
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 13:42:45 -0400
From: Douglas Painter <painter at CAM.ORG>
Subject: St. Amboise, Smithwick, Tartan, and Double Diamond's

Thanks everyone who responded to my mash/lauter tun question, and the
pop-chiller. I have now a 5 gal. Gott and Phil's Phalse Bottom and Sparge arm.

Now that I seem very close to brewing my very first all grain brew I would
like to brew a beer that I am familiar with and like. My subject lists my
favorites and most of you may not be aqainted with the first, which is a
pale ale out of Montreal's great micro Mc Auslan (check out their web page). 

So does anyone have recipes that would come close to these that I have named; 
St. Amboise, Smithwicks, Double Diamond, and Tartan (this later has a
scotchy peaty aftertaste... do they add some scotch?) I have the recipe that
Dave Line gave for DD but alas I am uncomfortable with saccharin tablets.

Thanks for the recipes! I'm sure many would like to know.

Douglas in Montreal, Canada  --  but for how long ... 


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 13:58:01 +0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: The polls are closing

Had to split this up. 8K limit, dontcha know!
"Your article sent to homebrew is being rejected. The reason:
 -- Article is larger than 8k limit --"
==================================

Greetings, beerlings!

Surprisingly few wanted their opinions heard on the posting of the
used items for sale web page contents to the HBD (shades of the US
electorate). Only 13 (Ah! Lucky 13!) votes were received.  

o Nine voting yes 
o One voting no 
o One voting "Hell no!" (Need a nap, don't ya Chuck?!?) 
o Two voting no with interesting suggestions.

Being a statistical kinda guy, I'd say thta's 2.25 to one in favor;
however, I like one of the suggestions. 

Let me detail the two suggestions:

One, from Kelly Jones, was shared publicly via the Digest. The
suggestion was to use WEBMAIL to pull the page down into e-mail. I
tried that. I tried it at noon, in the evening, in the morning,
during the 'wee hours', and a lot this weekend. To no avail. The
thing times out on the page constantly, and all I've ever gotten
back was an error message, and an 'ad' for their 'internet tourbus'
 - "that dog don't hunt." I think it has to do with the level of
formatting and graphics I incorporate in my page. Something I
flat-out refuse to change. And I really don't need to spend my time
keeping duplicate pages - one graphic, one not - up to date: that blows
the spousal approval meter to the floorboards, if you get my drift
("That's all you do - beer and computers, beer and computers..."). It
was a neat thought, though... 

The other suggestion came from Dave Draper, and is, as usual, 
excellent and worthy of pursuit: Use a script in my mailer to 
recognize requests for the page contents and automatically send them 
out. Kinda like a repeater. I _LIKE_ that idea! Since I check my mail 
at least once a day, It would be more timely than a monthly digest 
post as well! One problem: I'm very fond of the mailer I currently 
use, and will not change it. So, the question goes out to anyone who 
can answer: Does Pegasus 2.1 support scripts of any kind? If it does, 
it's not apparent via the help command.

I will begin the "echo" with this issue and continue it at the end of
each month  until (a) the Digest bores of it or (b) I give up the
homepage or (c) I find a mail-echo method that works or (d) any
reason not covered by (a), (b) or (c).

Part I of III
Pat Babcock                 | "Beer is my obsession, and I'm late for
President, Brew-Master      |  therapy..." -PGB
and Chief Taste-Tester      | "Let a good beer be the exclamation point 
Drinkur Purdee pico Brewery |  at the end of your day as every sentence 
pbabcock at oeonline.com       |  requires proper punctuation." -PGB
SYSOP on The HomeBrew University - Motor City Campus BBS (313)397-9758
Visit the Homebrew Flea Market via http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock 

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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 13:58:01 +0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: /An experiment

Yet another term of grad school is here with yet another experiment 
requirement.  So, like last year, I'm brewing beer to satisfy my 
grade requirements (ain't life grand?). 

Last year, as you may or may not recall (did I post the results 
here?) I brewed 40 gallons of nut brown ale from extract varying
the boiler geometry and yeast pitching levels. The results were
higher percent attentuation when the wide, squat boiler was used and the
pitching levels turned out to be 'noise' (Traditional DOE with two-
two level factors).  I think the attenuation came from higher OG from 
the lower carmelization occurring in the wide squat pot...

This year, I'm brewing four-five gallon batches of  'Nondescript Pale 
Ale' varying the base malt (2-row pale vs 6-row pale) and the mashing 
schedule  (40/60/70 two with 15 at 60, 45 at 70; two with 45 at 60, 15 at 70) and 
will again be looking at percent attenuation. Taguchi methods will be 
used (as this is a class in the Taguchi method...). I'll post the 
results here when I know 'em.

Part II of III
Pat Babcock                 | "Beer is my obsession, and I'm late for
President, Brew-Master      |  therapy..." -PGB
and Chief Taste-Tester      | "Let a good beer be the exclamation point 
Drinkur Purdee pico Brewery |  at the end of your day as every sentence 
pbabcock at oeonline.com       |  requires proper punctuation." -PGB
SYSOP on The HomeBrew University - Motor City Campus BBS (313)397-9758
Visit the Homebrew Flea Market via http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock 

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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 13:53:36 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Doggy Styles and more.


> From: Todd Gierman <tmgierma at acpub.duke.edu>
> Subject: a question of glassware

> My mother recently presented me with two large and very heavy goblets of 
> leaded glass.  She maintains that they are called Shoopers (Shupers, 
> Schoopers, Choupars?) and hinted that they cost her a pretty penny at an 
> auction.  She claims that they are servingware for beer.  

Those glasses are very dangerous.  Send them to me for proper disposal.  
(Well, I tried...)

They're called "Schooners", like the variety of boat.  (pr. skOO ners)  I'm 
not sure I buy the notion of different glassware being appropriate for 
different beer styles, but these are fun to drink from.  A couple bars in 
Nashville would always serve Gerst Amber in these.  (A pretty good regional 
brew.)  

> From: "Edmund C. Hack" <echack at crl.com>
> Subject: Re: Styles Vs Eclecticism

> I see the beer judging as being modeled after dog judging. For each breed 
> of dog, there is a standard. Judges compare the dog to the standard, and 
> the winning dogs are those closest to the standard.

Well, being new to dog judging (having four years experience with cat 
juggling competitions), this sounds wacky to me.  In cat judging, we simply
compare all the cats together, and judge based on "excellence".

Feeble attempts at humor aside, I think there is a lesson in the dog judging
analogy.  I don't know the ins and outs of AKC rules (American Kennel Club,
the folks who "officially" state whether a dog is a certain breed), but the
rules are (or were) restrictive enough that significant inbreeding occured, 
and certain breeds of dogs (Golden Retreivers and Cocker Spaniels come to 
mind) which used to be among the more intelligent are now notoriously stupid
and often have other health problems attributable to inbreeding.  (Like I 
said, I don't know the details and am probably misrepresenting this to some
extent, but the analogy stands.  Pretend its hypothetical if my account is 
wrong.)  

Basically, because people were overly concerned with the individual categories
and their current definitions (as opposed to their historic origins and 
breeding techniques), the categories themselves suffered, as did the quality
of the members (dogs) in those categories.  This should be a warning to us
when considering beer styles and the -guidelines- associated with them.

> From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
> Subject: Oatmeal Mash Technique

> Since there was no oatmeal grain in the mash, sparging was normal.

I was always under the impression that the gummygoo you extracted from the
oatmeal was the stuff that makes the sparges stick.  Perhaps to brew a
parallel batch with the rest of the oatmeal would shed some light on it?

 -R

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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 15:01:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: ejk at bselab.bls.com (Evan Kraus)
Subject: GLATT MILLS

Over the weekend while grinding some malt with my Glatt mill
I managed to break the gears.
Well in my quest to find some new ones I guess I am gonna have to
buy a new mill.
Looks like GLATT bailed !!!!!
I have 2 Phone #s for GLATT and both are disconnected !!!
So if U have a GLATT mill and unless U know who manufactured the gears for GLATT
or if U know who might have a large supply of them left!!
U are SOL   !!!

By the way does anyone know who might have the gears or where GREG GLATT is ???
Evan


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 15:15:32 -0400
From: danmcc at umich.edu (Dan McConnell)
Subject: But seriously, folks....


Dihydrogen Monoxide has the chemical formula H2O, usually, but not always
known as water.

IT WAS A JOKE.

DanMcC


Attempted humor in this post=0



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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 12:04:21 -0400
From: DICKERSONP at aol.com
Subject: SABCO experiences

Hello great collective wisdom:

I'm about to purchase a converted-keg brew kettle.  I read the keg conversion
FAQ and it seems that SABCO is the best deal.  What I'm wondering is if
anyone has personal experience with their kettles.  They have a $90 kettle,
and a $289 kettle with thermometer, false bottom, etc.  Anyone have either of
those two and like to comment on them??

Another question related to the two kettles.  What would you use the $289
kettle for?  If it has a false bottom, wouldn't you use it for mashing and/or
lautering?  Would you really boil in it?  What am I missing?  

As background, I'm an extract brewer with three batches under my belt (or
above my belt, if you look at my developing beer gut).  I have never
attempted all-grain, but would like to buy a kettle that could be used for
that purpose.  I kind of plan to go the Gott cooler route for
mash/sparge/lauter.  So, any wise advice would be appreciated.  If anyone is
interested, I'll be glad to summarize replies.  

Phil Dickerson
Raleigh, NC
WWW:  http://users.aol.com/dickersonp/phil.htm
e-mail:  dickersonp at aol.com

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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 15:56:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: "mike spinelli" <paa3983 at dpsc.dla.mil>
Subject: hazelnut extract source?

Fellow HBD'ers

Can someone advise on the best commercial hazelnut extract to use in
beer?  Also the ideal amount used at bottling time per 5 gallons.

Thanks.   Mike in Cherry Hill, New Jersey

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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 95 12:51:30 CDT
From: THaby at swri.edu
Subject: Delayed yeast pitch

 Hello all, I brewed an IPA on Sunday and the yeast did not take.  It was a 
dry ale yeast that was hydrated prior to pitching. My question is how long 
can wort sit in the primary without yeast activity and still be useable?
Thanks for any help you can give. 
 
Tim Haby/N5YEB
thaby at swri.edu

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From: ulick at chemcon.internet-eireann.ie

	id m0t7Ssy-0006TJC; Mon, 23 Oct 95 20:50 BST
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 20:50:15 +0100
From: Ulick Stafford <ulick at chemcon.internet-eireann.ie>
Subject: Dissolving oxygen; are iodophors safe?
To: Posting Address Only - No Requests <homebrew at hpfcmgw>
In-Reply-To: <199510230700.AA133671607 at hpfcmgw>
Message-Id: <Pine.3.89.9510232027.A106-0100000 at chemcon.internet-eireann.ie>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I noticed in some postings that there is a report that it is impossible 
to oxygenate wort to a harmful level using oxygen.  This seems to be 
slightly erroneous.  The amount of gas one can dissolve in a liquid is 
directly related to the partial pressure of the gas and also related to 
the liquid temperature.  The maximum amount of oxygen that can be 
dissolved in water by aerating with air at normal atmospheric pressure is 
around 8 ppm at normal wort temperatures.  This is related to the .21 
atmospheres partial pressure of oxygen in air.  The maximum amount that 
can be dissolved using pure oxygen at atmospheric pressure is around 35 
ppm at normal wort temperatures.  I have read that 14 ppm is an optimum 
oxygen level, and levels over 20 ppm are harmful.  I believe that a 
statement was made that even if the dissolved oxygen reached a higher 
level, it would quickly drop to around 8 ppm, the amount of dissolved 
oxygen in equilibrium with oxygen in air.  This would suggest to me 
that the experiments upon which the report was based were not 
conducted in enclosed vessels similar to homebrewing carboys, but in 
small open flasks of similar (I would appreciate the actual details).  

In my opinion brewers 
should be careful.  If one oxygenates in an enclosed vessel using a 
fermentation lock or similar to keep oxygen in the vessel the 
concentration of oxygen will approach the maximum for wort at the given 
temperature in equilibrium with pure oxygen at atmospheric pressure ~ 35 
ppm.  This level will not fall until the composition of the headspace 
gases changes.  Unless it is apparent that production of CO2 in the early 
stages of fermentation causes this partial pressure to drop quickly 
causing dissolved oxygen to come out of solution, it is likely that the 
yeast will consume harmful levels of oxygen in the lag phase.  

One could say that if one oxygenated and then opened the vessel to the 
atmosphere a harmful level of oxygen would not remain in the wort 
(although I would be curious even in this situation as to how quickly the 
oxygen would come out of solution in a carboy or similar).  
However, the same amount of dissolved oxygen could be reached by aerating 
with air at much less expense (although not as quickly).  I always 
thought that the reason large breweries used oxygen was to get the level 
rapidly up to around 14 ppm.

IODOPHORS.  I have been searching for a suitable iodophor product on this 
side of the Atlantic.  I purchased a gallon of a Ciba-Geigy product 
called `Iosan D' sold for cleaning dairy tanks (2% available iodine, 
20%w/v acid).  However, it seems to be 
quite soapy.  I phoned up Ciba-Geigy asking about the product formulation 
and got a load of secrecy crap as an initial response.  When I worded my 
request that I wanted a product without detergent and preferably without 
acid I was told that all cleaners contained detergents.  Now obviously an 
iodophor must contain a surface active agent of sorts, so I asked if they 
produced a no-rinse product.  They said no.  They recommended that all 
products be rinsed to remove the iodine, which they considered to be 
quite toxic, with a dilute chlorine bleach solution!  Their concerns sound 
quite opposite to the homebrew momilies on the other side of the 
Atlantic.  Due to differences between milk and beer??  Perhaps, I should 
just use the iodophor for stored Corny kegs and other stainless equipment 
and follow the advice of rinsing with very dilute Cl prior to use.  
Comments?  

Unless, of course, anyone knows of a no rinse iodophor available in Ireland
(or Europe in general)?  Perhaps from a food or beverage industry, rather 
than dairy, supplier?
_____________________________________________________________________________
  'There was a master come unto the earth,  | Dr. Ulick Stafford, 
     born in the holy land of Indiana,      | Wexford Brewing Company,
  in the mystical hills east of Fort Wayne'.| Ballyhurst, Taghmon, Co. Wexford
        http://www.nd.edu:80/~ulick/        | ulick at chemcon.internet-eireann.ie



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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 95 17:20 EST
From: Bob Sutton <BSutton_+a_fdgv-03_+lBob_Sutton+r%Fluor_Daniel at mcimail.com>
Subject: Re: Sanitizing Questions




Text item: Text_1

PAUL_TULLY at HP1700.desk.hp.com wrote:

>I'm new to homebrewing and I'm about to attempt my second batch of beer
>(the first batch came out great). I have a few questions concerning
>sanitation and I though I'd post them here to get your opinions.

Great to have you aboard Paul.

>What is the best sanitizer to use? I recently read in a homebrewing
>book that B-Brite is not a sanitizer, it's a cleanser. Is a household
>bleach solution a better sanitizer to use? Also, has anyone tried the
>new no rinse B-Brite?

Certainly B-Brite is a popular sanitizer, but the new lemon-scented formula is
suspiciously similar to dishwashing detergent (that works as well, and is much
less expensive). An alternate sanitizing agent is iodophor. It is readily rinsed
from your equipment, and, unlike B-Brite, may be left to dry on surfaces,
without leaving contaminants which could affect your brew. Some use simple
bleach (ex. household Clorox) at 200 ppm free chlorine. Many options here that
are as effective, and more affordable than B-Brite. Iodophor probably ranks
first.

>I also read (same book) that bottles can be sanitized by heating them
>in your oven  at  200 degrees for 10 minutes. Is this a good idea? Does
>anyone use this process?

I've used a similar process; one hour at 300 degrees F. The downside is cooling
time. You can't hasten it or the bottles may self destruct. Natural cooling is
best. Oven cleanliness is important. If you heat your bottles in the oven in
which last night's pot roast boiled over, well, you can probably look forward to
some new style of brew (though it should go well with steak)<g>

>What is the best way to sanitize your bottle caps? Is it necessary to
>boil them or can you just soak them in a sanitizer solution. Won't
>boiling have an effect on the rubber seal inside the cap?

I boil mine for 20 minutes and have had no sealing problems. Don't add the caps
until the boil forms. That way you can avoid localized high temperatures along
the bottom of the pan.


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 20:47:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Jeffrey W. Van Deusen" <VANDEUSEN001 at WCSUB.CTSTATEU.EDU>
Subject: FREE book!



With all the talk recently over H.E. Bravery's book "Homebrewing Without
Failures", I figured I would post an interesting offer:

   * Do you want this book?
   * I have one copy and do not want it anymore.
   * I'll mail it to you free.
   * No BS - first email I get gets the book.

Jeffrey W. Van Deusen
Danbury, CT



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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:49:42 +1200 (EST)
From: Regan Pallandi <reganp at iris.bio.uts.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re:pseudo Easymasher


Hello All - here in Oz, we do not have the same availability of 
equipment as in the States. I have seen a photo of the Easymasher, and 
all it seems to be is a rolled up bit of screen attached to a pipe. Is 
this about right? So, can one of these be fabricated by this very 
(seemingly too simple) process? Is there a hidden, and crucial, point 
that I've missed? Also, I have some very fine SS mesh, is there an 
optimal mesh size to use, ie. is too fine a mesh going to cause probs?
Finally, WHY is this easymasher thing supposedly so efficient? 
Anyone have comments/experience? Thanks.

Regan (Sydney, Australia) 
 




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Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:58:41 +1000 (EST)
From: Ken Willing <kwilling at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: "Complex unfermentable sugars": What are they?

Re: the "complex unfermentable sugars" mentioned by Miller (CHHB, p.127) as
yielded by alpha amylase action (in addition to the yield of dextrins &
simple sugars):  What are these complex sugars, exactly?  Maltotetraose? 
Anything else? Do they indeed, in and of themselves, give a characteristic
(malty?) flavor, in addition to their sweetness?  

So is it accurate to say that a mash schedule favoring alpha amylase
activity should result in a *malty* sweetness?, or would it basically just
produce an extra margin of sweetness, as contrasted with a "dry" brew made
by emphasising beta amylase activity?  

Thanks for help with this.

Ken Willing   <kwilling at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Sydney, Australia

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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 95 14:46:02 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Styles

Charlie writes (quoting me):
>Algis Korzonas writes,    >Charlie also says:
>CS>1/ Why can't an  excellent American Bock beat a very good  Helles Bock in a 
>CS>competition? They are close enough to be compared and contest.
> 
>>Of course it could, but only if the American Bock was judged as an American
>>Bock and the Helles Bock as a Helles Bock.  Head-to-head the American Bock
>>(e.g.  Augsburger Bock, Frankenmuth Bock...) would be far too weak and watery 
>>compared to Ayinger Mai Bock, Einbecker Mai Ur-Bock or Forschungs St. Jakobus
>>Bock.  Judged as American Bocks, these three would be tossed out for being
>>too big and too alcoholic for style.
> 
>I rest my case! From and outsider's point of view (I have never competed or 
>known of a competition, I am outside organized homebrewing) with experience of 
>wine competitions, this seems absurd. Wine is grouped into styles (usually 
>grape varieties) and judged on excellence. I have never heard of points for 
>comformance to style?!

You have not heard of points for conformance to style because you are not
familiar with homebrewing competitions.  I don't know much about wines, but
I believe that wine musts are not fortified before fermentation correct?  If
this is true, then one variable that is available the the beer brewer is not
available to the wine vintner, namely the strength of the finished product.
It would not be fair to compare a Porto with a Cabernet, would it (assuming
they were made from the same grapes, etc... I obviously don't know anything
about wine or I would have selected an unfortified wine that is made from the
same grapes as Port)?

Other variables in brewing that are not in winemaking are hop rate, hop
variety, spices, grains other than barley, mash temperature, protein rests...
You see, there is far less variability in wine than there is in beer.

Now, why have styles?  Besides having *some* idea of what you are buying
when you go to the store, they are extremely important in most homebrewing
competitions.  Consider the score to be based upon two factors: 1) how
well the beer represents the style into which it was entered, and 2) how
few other flaws the beer has (infections, oxidation, staling, etc.).  In a
very small competition, one could simply take all the beers and judge them
on excellence, but this would only serve to measure how lucky a particular
brewer was in satisfying a particular judge's taste on a particular day.
If it was hot and dry, maybe the judge would like a dry, hoppy, light-
bodied, refreshing beer; if it was cold and damp, perhaps the judge would
be in the mood for a thick, dark, alcoholic brew.

It depends on what your goals are for the competition.  In my opinion (and
I would hope the opinion of most BJCP judges), the primary responsibility
of the judge is to help the brewer improve their beer (or, in very few
cases, simply congratulate them on an outstanding effort).  Unless both
the brewer and the judge have the same target in mind, it is impossible
for the judge to help the brewer get closer to the target.  If a brewer
submits a pale, dry beer as a Sweet Stout, then I would suggest that they
add some darker malts, perhaps some crystal for sweetness, suggest that
they mash at a higher temperature if they were mashing or try using
Laaglander DME if they were extract brewing and perhaps add some lactose
to taste at bottling.  You see... I can try to help them.  If they just
submit it and say: "this is beer" then I can only judge the beer in terms
of infections, oxidation and staling -- not very informative unless it's
the brewer's first batch and they just wanted to know if this is how
homebrew should taste.

Assuming that we can judge a beer on simply excellence implies that (for
example) there is a *correct* hop rate for a given gravity.  There is, but
it is style dependent.  Some styles are dominated by bitterness others by
malt.  Some styles have lots of hop flavour others none.  Other styles
are somewhere between these extremes.  Without knowing what the brewer
had in mind, the judge cannot comment on the appropriateness of the hop
rate.

A secondary responsiblilty of the judge is to select the best beer in
each category.  To me, as an entrant, this is like sport... the lure
is not really the ribbons (well, maybe for some it is) but the pride
you can take in knowing that you worked very hard to perfect that Altbier
recipe and you were judged to have brewed the best one at that competition
(and lucky enough to have gotten a judge who has been to Duesseldorf).

Regarding Charlie's quote of the AHA's view of their guidelines, this may
be fine and dandy, but the AHA is very much a dictatorship and their
claims of responsiveness to their membership are more marketing than
reality.  Compare the growth rate of AHA membership with the numbers of
new members each year and you will realize that the only reason that
the AHA is growing at all is because (for the time being) there are a couple
thousand more people joining than quitting.

Finally, Charlie quotes Rob:
"Style' is instead an invention of our imaginations, something that can be 
changed as easily as we change our minds about it."     Rob Lauriston.

Yes, but as a collective, we the homebrewing and beer judging community
determine a set of rather narrow guidelines which have some inertia and
therefore do not change with the wind.  To have constanly changing,
broad guidelines would be a disservice to both brewers and judges and
would make their respective "jobs" far more difficult.

I think that as you learn more about beer and styles, you will better
understand the importance of them.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 23:57:40 +0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: The HomeBrew Flea Market - Dump I

The HomeBrew Flea Market

Attention shoppers...
Looking for a good deal on a piece of used home brewing equipment? 
Let your browser do the walking! If you see something of interest, 
pick the e-mail address and pop a note off to the seller!

If you don't see what you're after, send a note to pbabcock at oeonline.com
with "Wanted Used" (less the quotes) as the subject. Include a description 
of what you're looking for, what you expect to give for those item(s), your 
geographical location, and your e-mail address.  It'll pop up here on the 
next update!

Attention sellers... 
Have some home brewing equipment you no longer want or need? Send a
note to pbabcock at oeonline.com  with "For Sale Used" (less the quotes)
as the subject. Include a description of what you're selling/trading,
what you expect to receive for your item(s), your geographical
location, and your e-mail address. It'll pop up here on the next
update!

A Plea... PLEASE: As this is being done as a 'public service', no
commercial ads.  I maintain a list of suppliers having either e-mail
capability or 800 numbers and mail-order service off of the beer
page. If you fit that criteria and are not currently included in the
list, drop me a note (including your location, 800 number) and I'll
add your establishment to that list. 

And, Of Course,  A Disclaimer... Your note is converted directly to
HTML. Only your email address is 'handled' to make it immediately
'linkable' through a browser mailform. Neither I nor O&E Online will
be held responsible for any m isrepresentation, merchantability, or
any other liability or consequence resulting from the posting or
pursuit of any ad on this web site. 

Items for sale or trade...

Date sent:        Thu, 21 Sep 95 10:10:24 -0700 Beer bottle
collection, 3000+ different bottles, some pre-prohibition, mostly
recent (past 16 years) American microbrews.  You pick up from
California, East Bay Area.  Hard to set a price.  Mostly looking for
someone who would appreciate a massive collection (besides a glass
recycler).  Willing to trade for stuff (tools, CO2/soda keg setup,
refrigerator/compressor, malt mill, etc).
 - Ken      krkoupa at ccmail2.pacbell.com

 - ------------------------------------

Date sent:        04 Oct 95 12:47 PDT

I have 2 complete Fermentap setups (with stands) for sale.  Used for
1 batch, am going to stainless so am getting rid of them.  First
$35.00 plus UPS. (Cost was 29.95 each)

ROTH.TER at SEATTLE.VA.GOV
 - ------------------------------------
Date sent:        Fri, 13 Oct 1995 11:10:16 EDT

'Looks like about a 30 gallon pressure cooker. About 2' wide x 3'
deep, dished out bottom a top onening with a wheel to close it that
puches about 12 rods out  to hold it securely closed all the way
around (like a door on a ship or submarine) It has at least 3 tapped
(3/4 or 1") holes on the side. The pipes coming out of these holes
have been sawn off. A beautiful piece of stainless work. It's not
mine, it's in the stainless pile at my local scrap yard and I hate to
think that it will be cut up for scrap rather than turned into a
beer machine. It's too big for me and my SO doesn't see these things
as the works of art that I do. They'll probably want 100.00 for it
(it looks heavy) If anyone's interested, I'll get more details and a
firm price. I'd love to see a photo of it plumbed into someone's beer
system.

They've also got (occasionally) syrup kegs, usually the sliding
collar/non pin-lock kind of fittings. Usually $9.00 with some syrup
and pressure still in them. for a couple of bucks, I'd pick these up
and UPS them to anyone.

These are mine....60 gallon 304 SS "kegs". 18" w x ~40" high. One 2"
opening in the top. Only used once for holding water during a drop
test (there's a dent in the skirt, but not in the tank). $100.00

Barrier bags...with "zippers" and heat-sealable in case you want
tamper-evidence. White multi-laminate. I can get O2 and H2O
permeation rates if you need them, but these are high barrier. About
6" wide x 9" high. .30 each.

 -Wallie Meisner
910 632 2410
Greensboro, NC
uscgc2r3 at ibmmail.com

 - ------------------------------------
Date sent:        Thu, 19 Oct 95 14:06:32 0500
I used to have a homebrew supply business in my house.  
Due to the high cost of advertising and my location, I 
gave it up. I have a very small inventory of various 
supplies and a few books left that I am willing to 
sell for cost plus shipping.  If this qualifies for 
space in the flea market,  anyone can E-Mail me at 
awchrd2 at peabody.sct.ucarb.com  and I will send a list 
of present inventory to them. I am located in West 
Virginia-- Charleston area.
Thanks,
Bill Henson

Note: I take Bill at his word that he is no longer an active
retailler and is just letting go on old stock leftovers. This post
DOES NOT constitute a change in my position of not supporting
commercial 'ads' here - that's what your advertising budget is
for.

 - ------------------------------------
WANTED: for sale or trade...

 Date sent:    Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:20:50 -0400

I'm looking to expand my simultaneous brewing capability with a few
extra carboys.  I'd like another 5 and 6 gallon glass carboy.  The
local homebrew shop has them for about $20-25, so I suppose half
that is reasonable.  I can pick them up in the Boston metro area
since shipping would probably be prohibitively expensive.

Thanks in advance!
- -- 
Carlin Vieri            MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
cvieri at ai.mit.edu   Cambridge, MA 
02139     (617) 253-8170

 - ------------------------------------
Date sent:        Mon, 25 Sep 1995 15:48:00 -0500

Wanted to buy:

A couple of 5 gal soda kegs, preferably pin lock type.

St Pats in Texas sells the pin lock type for $21 plus shipping.
Condition is not real important as long as they hold pressure.
Anyone have one or two for less than that?

INTERNET REPLIES TO ->  andy.watts at ase.com
 in Hagerstown, Md.
 - ------------------------------------

Date sent:        Fri, 13 Oct 95 17:28:20 -2400

Wanted:3 cajun cookers for 3 tiered gravity system.I,m on Vancouver 
Island in B.C.,Canada.

Kris Masson <kmasson at island.net>

 - ------------------------------------

Well, that's it for this month. I'll hold the 'polls' open for a 
while longer. Figure this 'sample' may prompt some more voting...

Part III of III

(apparently, this ain't gonna be easy either! This is the third 
attempt to get the HTML converted in such a way that the HBD likes 
it. Rejection. I *HATE* rejection...)
Pat Babcock                 | "Beer is my obsession, and I'm late for
President, Brew-Master      |  therapy..." -PGB
and Chief Taste-Tester      | "Let a good beer be the exclamation point 
Drinkur Purdee pico Brewery |  at the end of your day as every sentence 
pbabcock at oeonline.com       |  requires proper punctuation." -PGB
SYSOP on The HomeBrew University - Motor City Campus BBS (313)397-9758
Visit the Homebrew Flea Market via http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock 

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Date: 24 Oct 95 01:40:05 MDT (Tue)
From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: Mason jars and positive pressure

"Mason jars" (canning jars with screw-down rubber-seal lids" will survive
holding substantial positive pressure, even though they're designed to
handle negative internal pressure, because of how the canning process
works.

When you "can" food in one of these jars, you fill it, put on the flat
lid-top, and screw a ring around it to hold it down.  Then you "process"
it, either in a boiling-water bath or in a pressure canner.  In either
case, you end up creating more pressure inside the jar than the seal will
contain, so gases escape through the screwed-down lid.  The design is
intentionally arranged so that internal pressure will lift the lid and
escape...this is part of the process of driving out the air (replacing it
with steam) in the headspace.  As the jar cools, things contract inside and
that's when the seal forms, sucking the rubber-lined cap down against the
glass and ultimately deforming it to make a one-time seal.

So...although I wouldn't recommend sealing beer in canning jars since it's
using the design backwards, I'd expect them to be able to handle a lot of
positive-pressure abuse without breaking because they're designed to be
able to vent excess internal pressure.
- ---
Dick Dunn    rcd at talisman.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado USA
   ...Simpler is better.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1866, 10/25/95