---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Old Thumper? (Bob McCowan)
  Re: microbrewery or brewpub systems ("Mark J. Wilk")
  Where to purchase Gott coolers (BigBrad)
  SG Measurements ("Manning Martin MP")
  Superb Burners (blacksab)
  Beer Stores with Large Selections ("David N. Pflanzer")
  open ferment, lost IBU`s (Charles Wettergreen)
  bottle yeast for hefe-weizen (Randy Whittaker)
  open fermenters (Bryan Gros)
  YES, I must be doing something right!! (Dave Scroggins)
  Hopped Coffee; Brewday from Hell; Dirt Beer (KennyEddy)
  O-rings/Oxygen absorbing bottlecaps (Algis R Korzonas)
  re: Cleaning carboys: Oh, please! ("Pat Babcock")
  Re: Gott coolers (Mike White)
   (Steve Adams)
  Growing Hops (Mike White)
  Re: microbrewery or brewpub systems (Mike White)
  Growing Hops (Mike White)
  Gott Capacity ("Christopher M. Goll")
  SG puzzle/archives (Jeremy Ballard Bergsman)
  virtues of PET bottles (elkman)
  Questions about Bruheat Boiler and EasyMasher (Jeff Hewit)
  Carbonation and fill level/Blowoff sillyness (Algis R Korzonas)
  Attitudes on Open vs. Closed Fermentation (JDPils)
  Cancel (PEthen)
  Recipe needed for a Helles ("Rick Gontarek, Ph.D.")
  Are you guys NUTS! ("mike spinelli")
  confusing terminology (PVanslyke)
  SG Measurements Correction ("Manning Martin MP")



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:26:22 -0500
From: Bob McCowan <bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com>
Subject: Old Thumper?

I have some Old Thumper, brewed under license by the Kennebunk Brewing
Company. I'd like to try and duplicate it at home.  Anyone tried to do this?

Bob
Bob McCowan
bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com


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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:36:25 -0500 (EST)
From: "Mark J. Wilk" <mw5w+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: microbrewery or brewpub systems

Excerpts from internet.homebrew-beer: 26-Jan-96 microbrewery or brewpub
sys.. by Dan_Imperato at vos.stratus 
>Hi all,
>   I am posting this for a friend of mine who wants to open a brewpub.
>He would like to know the sources of 6-10bbl systems. I know of Eliot
>Bay Metal Fabricating in Washington but can anyone offer other suggestions?
>Thanks in advance.
> 
>Dan


Try DME Brewing Systems
    PO Box 553
    Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island
    Canada
    902 628 6900

For refabricated equipment:

    W.M. Sprinkman
    1 800 816 1610

Mark

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Date:         Mon, 29 Jan 96 10:59:48 CST
From: BigBrad <BPLUMMER at SYSUBMC.BMC.COM>
Subject:      Where to purchase Gott coolers

Just a quick note to the HBD public:
I purchased a 10-gal Gott cooler this weekend at Academy for $39.99.
This is the regular price. They do not ship to individuals.
Standard disclaimer applies. ////Brad

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Brad Plummer             \                                       /
BMC Software, Inc.       \ If this gets any better, I won't be   /
Houston, Texas           \ able to guarantee the FULL 3 minutes. /
bplummer at sysubmc.bmc.com \                                       /
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Many times I speak for BMC Software. This ain't one of 'em.

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Date: 29 Jan 1996 12:21:58 U
From: "Manning Martin MP" <manning_martin_mp at mcst.ae.ge.com>
Subject: SG Measurements

Domenick writes in HBD 1947:

>My understanding of specific gravity is that it is the ratio of the
>weight of a given volume of wort (or any liquid) to the weight 
>of the same volume of water...

>...100 ml of 1.050 wort should weigh 105 g, arrived at by 105/100.

Almost.  SG is the ratio of the densities at the reference temperature.  so,
100 ml of 1.050 (I assume  at 15.5 deg C = 60 Deg F) wort weighs: 
1.050*0.999/100= 104.895, since the density of water at 15.5 deg C is 0.999.

>So I did a test.  10 g DME in 100 ml water yielded 108 ml of wort.
>That is, 10 g of DME increased the volume by 8 ml.  Calculating we
>get: 110/108 = 1.0185...

>...Then I measured it with my hydrometer: 1.034 !

Your hydrometer is probably pretty close, and I suspect your volume
measurements are the cause of the error (since it sounds like your scale is
accurate and well calibrated).  

See if this is a convincing argument:  Let's say your initial volume of water
is good, so that initial100 ml weighs 99.8 g  (0.998 = density of water at 20
deg C, or close enough, anyway).  Then, you have 109.8 g of solution, giving
10/109.8 = 0.0911 = 9.11 Deg Plato = 1.0365 SG  at 15.5 deg C.  Not too far from
your hydrometer reading, eh?

If that's right, the real density of the mixture should have been
1.0365*0.999 = 1.0355 (from SG = dens/dens H2O), and the volume would have
been 110/1.0355 = 106.2 ml at 15.5 C.  That might be 106.2*0.999/0.998 =
106.3  at  20 C, so there must be a 108/106.3 = 1.6% cumulative error somewhere.


MPM


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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:46:42 -0600
From: blacksab at siu.edu
Subject: Superb Burners

Someone posted the number and address to Superb in the Chicagoland area, and
I can't find it. The person who posted had purchased the burner element as a
part and had the part number. Could you either re-post or e-mail me? All I
want is the burner element.

Thank you,

Harlan


 ======================================================================

   Harlan Bauer                      ...malt does more than Milton can
 <blacksab at siu.edu>                  To justify God's ways to man.
  Carbondale, IL                                                 
                                                       --A.E. Houseman
 ======================================================================


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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:03:34 -0500
From: "David N. Pflanzer" <pflanzer at gate.net>
Subject: Beer Stores with Large Selections

I live in Florida.  Due to our wacky beverage law which restricts beer 
container sizes (only 6oz, 12oz, 16oz and 22oz sizes can be sold 
legally) I occasionally go out-of-state to replenish my supply of 
belgian beers and other imports (which are often sold in common metric 
volumes).

My my most frequent destination is a place called 'Greens Beverage 
Store' in Atlanta.  They have a good selection but lack many of the 
beers that MJ and some here in the digest speak highly of.

I am preparing a beer run that will be jointly funded by myself and my 
brew buddies.  If you know of a store that stocks a wide selection of 
some of the more hard-to-find beers (any location within the US) please 
email me with the name, phone # and a breif analysis of their selection.

I will organize and repost the information I receive.

Thanks...
David;

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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 12:08 CST
From: chuckmw at mcs.com (Charles Wettergreen)
Subject: open ferment, lost IBU`s 

To: homebrew at hpfcmgw.fc.hp.com

In HBD #1947
Al Korzonas (korz at pubs.ih.att.com) wrote:

HH> Tim writes:
<snip>
HH> >young age (6 days vs. 3 weeks), less rough, and smoother. The skimming of
HH> >krauesen material seems to have eliminated much of the sharpness associated
HH> >with young beer.  Perhaps the intangible flavor improvement imparted by ope
<snip>
And Al teased us with:
HH> Rather than speculate, I did an experiment and had the resulting beer tested
HH> at Siebel.  I'm afraid that I can't go into details until after publication
HH> (in Zymurgy), but one important thing I found was that a significant amount
HH> of IBUs were lost when the kraeusen was removed from the fermenting beer.

I don't know about the IBU's falling, but I thought I was trapped in a hop 
drying shed while open-fermenting 12 gallons of strong English ale yesterday.
I've *never* had such a strong aroma of hops when fermenting in carboys.
 * RM 1.3 00946 * 
                                                                            

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Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 01:10:08 PST
From: jrw1635 at engult.lxe.com (Randy Whittaker)
Subject: bottle yeast for hefe-weizen

Brewers,

  I've been listening and learning for a long while - doing my homework.
Yesterday, an experienced home brewer and I cooked up a batch - our attempt
at making a hefe-weizen. We used Wyeast #3068 Weihenstephan in a 5 gallon
batch. This is my first batch and his first hefe-weizen.
  Now for the question.  I read that we needed to take out 1.5 quarts of
the wort and hold it back till the primary/secondary fermentation was
complete and use it with some yeast at bottling time.  The book called it
"speise".  We did follow this, but did not save any original yeast (#3068).
What yeast would you think best to use?  My readings have suggested lager
yeast for its ability to settle out better.  The fermentation is taking
place in his basement (my guess is about 60 - 64F.) and it keeps at a
stable temp. 
  Thank you for all the great info.
  Randy Whittaker
  jrw1635 at lxe.com

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Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu
From: grosbl at ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu (Bryan Gros)
Subject: open fermenters

What do advocates of open fermentations use as fermenters?  Perhaps
Charlie P.'s book is the reason most people use carboys, but the other
big reason is that they are easy to get and are pretty cheap.

Where do you find a 7 or 12 gallon crock?  And are these crocks lined
so they are not porous?  Do they fit in the fridge (for lagering)?

Thanks.


      - Bryan
        grosbl at ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu



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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 10:56:21 PST
From: Dave Scroggins <daves at mushie.cdc.hp.com>
Subject: YES, I must be doing something right!!


Jack says:

>Cleaning out a carboy that was used for primary fermentation has got
to be number one on the list.  Compare that to cleaning out a classic
7 gallon fermenter.

I don't think there is a comparison. I think it would take WAY to much trouble
to clean that primary gunk out of a carboy, let alone the associated tubing. 
On the other hand, it's not too much trouble to clean my primary because
it's got such a large opening.


>Skimming is also optional as I have yet to see anyone prove that leaving
>in on the beer has any effect on the taste of the final beer.  It tastes pretty
>gross but when you drain the beer, it stays behind if you do it properly.

I am realy glad he posted this. I keep wondering why people skim, since
my experience does not show there to be any advantage to it.
My beer usually tastes great, so I must be doing something right.


- ---

I said usually there, because I have had two batches with were somewhat less
than good. Oh -- ok one was not drinkable and the other is only marginal.

The only common denominators seem to be they were both dark brews
(One a stout, the other a porter) in which I used bitter orange peel. 

Both times the orange peel was green, like it had mold growing on it 
before being dried. I didn't worry and tossed it in anyhow, but maybe I 
should have worried. 

Both times the taste was somewhat like cleaning fluid. Other aspects of the
brews weem fine. Good head, no gushers good color.

I put the peel in at the same time I put in the boiling hops.

What experience have other folks had with Bitter orange? 
What point do you add it?

Dave S.




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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:58:45 -0500
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Hopped Coffee; Brewday from Hell; Dirt Beer

*** Hopped Coffee:

Well my wife worked Saturday and I figured I'd brew a Scotch Ale while I had
the house to myself; since it was oh-dark-thirty a pot of coffee was
required.  Remembering the recent articles about hopped coffee, I figured I'd
be the only one to suffer if it sucked, so I tossed 15 Samuel Adams
Hallertauer Mittelfruh pellets into the basket (in an otherwise-normal 10-cup
batch of uninspired Folgers).

The hop character was a perfect match for the natural flavor of coffee!  Not
something I'd have every morning ('course that could change :-{)} ) but truly
righteous for what it is.  These are relatively low AA (2.8%); don't know if
that makes a difference for this process but 10-15 small pellets seems to be
about right I guess.

*** Mark Redmans's BrewDay from Heck:

Your list was not in order of impoertance, otherwise Item 7 would have been
first, followed by perhaps Item 4.

***  To Chas Peterson, whose pils malt tastes like dirt all of a sudden:

Is your grain moldy/mildewy?  Is "mildewy" a word? This might explain the
"recentness" of this flavor profile.

Ken Schwartz
Kenny Eddy at aol.com

Duane Thomas, former Dallas Cowboys halfback, answering a question on whether
he has an IQ - "Sure I've got one.  It's a perfect twenty-twenty."


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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 14:00:05 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: O-rings/Oxygen absorbing bottlecaps

Greg writes:
>I usually replace the o-rings when I pick up a new keg.  The 
>small ones on the inlet and outlet fittings are readily available
>at hardware stores.  Even then, you may get some leakage -- try
>a thin coating of vaseline on all o-rings, including the big one
>on the top hatch.

Two words of advice: 1) make sure the o-rings you buy are made from
food-grade material and 2) I recommend against putting Vaseline anywhere
that the beer will touch.

Clarifications:
1. If you get your o-rings from a homebrew supplier, ask where they got
them from -- if they are from Foxx or some other beverage equipment
distributor, then fine.  If they say "the hardware store," then I would
verify that they are food-grade.

2. I think that Vaseline would kill the head retention of the beer (it's
oily).  There is some kind of special lubricant called "Keg Lube" or
something like that, although I have never used it.  I think I saw a
writeup of in in the New Products section of Zymurgy a few issues ago.

Personally, I change the big gasket every dozen batches or so and the small
ones when they begin to leak (which depends a lot on how much on/off action
they see from connectors).

There was also a question about replacing a green o-ring with a black one
from someone (sorry).  The answer is that, at least from Foxx, their heavy-
duty o-rings are black and their light-duty ones are brown.  There should
be no problem replacing the coloured o-rings with black ones.  Incidentally,
Foxx has different rings for ball-lock and pin-lock, although they look
pretty much the same to me.

***
Jeremy writes:
>Last night I tasted a "red" ale that I brewed in June.  It has now been in
>the bottle almost 6 months.  When bottling I randomly assigned regular
>and O2-absorbing caps to the bottles.  Last night I picked one of each
>and compared them (as I have been doing for the last 6 months).  Both
>were somewhat oxidized, neither terribly so, and I have yet to find
>a difference between them.
> 
>My biggest complaint with my own beer for a while has been oxidation.
>I am only now starting to make more stable beers.  I find that I am
>rather sensitive to oxidation and it bothers me, so a solution would
>be most welcome.  I don't think these caps are it.

There are two factors that you may want to consider.  First, is there
any chance that you sanitized those oxygen-absorbing bottlecaps by boiling?
If so, then their O2-absorbing capabilities were trashed by the boil.
Incidentally, when I spoke with the lead engineer who developed PureSeal(tm)
caps, he said that the absorbing variety (note, there are "absorber" and
"barrier" varieties) in addition to absorbing oxygen from the headspace,
they also provide an oxygen barrier for up to six months.  (Let's not
get into that discussion again about how the CO2 pressure will keep the O2
out -- that's not how gasses work.)  There are other oxygen-absorbing caps
available now, from other manufacturers, but for PureSeal you can tell if
it is "absorber" by looking for an "A" after the "PureSeal."  The letter "B" 
indicates that it is only a "barrier" cap.

Secondly, oxidation earlier in the process (HSA, for example) can lead to
oxidation problems with age.  I don't know all the chemistry (perhaps some
chemists can correct me), but my understanding is that the oxygen is bound-up
in other compounds (melanoidins, I believe) only to be released later as
the beer ages.  Do I have that right?  If so, then the "cardboard" or "paper"
aromas we usually associate with post-fermentation oxidation could very
well be a problem with aeration of the mash, runnings or post-boil wort,
right?

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com
Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas

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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 16:12:35 +0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: re: Cleaning carboys: Oh, please!

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Aw, c'mon! Hard to clean a carboy?!? Let me introduce you to the
"carboy brush" and the "Jet Bottle Washer [tm]". Takes a few
seconds. 

As for the tube, first: never use anything that a hop plug won't
flow through.  Charlie P's cute photo of a stopper with a
widdle-biddy tube stuffed into it is just that - a cute picture. Get
the he-person (pc) sized, one inch-diameter tube God intended you to
use! 

To clean it, I tied a wire (stranded copper, insulated. String will
do for the flexible-wire-impaired) about a foot longer than my
blow-off tube to the handle of a bottle (bottle; not carboy)
cleaning brush, and tied the other end to a 12 inch section of 1/4
inch steel rod (available at any hardware store. Just ask to see
their rods...). Drop the rod into the tube, grab it at the opposite
end of the tube, and pull the brush in and through. Presto-cleano.
Sanitize it in your bottling bucket with the sanitizer you'll
undoubtedly had to pour from your carboy.

Not trying to "dis" the current thread, but citing cleanup as 
difficult is, well, to borrow a word from Jack, silly!  In my 
experience, it isn't much worse than cleaning the same goo from the 
sides of a bucket. Doesn't take much longer, either. Unless you've 
met Evelyn Wood, I could probably have 'boy and tube draining before 
you finish this note.

But: to each his own. This is one of those "religious" things where
many will respond "on firm beliefs" rather than hard, cold fact. (To
the credit of those in the current thread, that seems not to be case
this time. Congrats, combatants!)

Happily blowing off in SE Michigan until (a) this thread convinces
me that I'm being silly by doing so; or (b) I get the edges cleaned
up on my new 15 gallon stainless steel open fermenter (Thanks,
Wallie!).

 - ---------------------------------

Open question to all who use huge fermenters, but a re _still_
homebrewing: Do you keep the fermenter up on something, or do you
pump the beer into your secondary/bottles? 15 gallons in a converted
Sanke is the stuff Schwarzeneggers are made of. (My apologies to
Arnold for any spelling error...) 

See ya!

Pat Babcock in Canton, Michigan (Western Suburb of Detroit)
pbabcock at oeonline.com  URL: http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/
President, Brew-Master and Chief Taste-Tester 
Drinkur Purdee pico Brewery 


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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:46:52 -0600
From: mike at datasync.com (Mike White)
Subject: Re: Gott coolers

On 26 Jan 96, Al Stevens wrote:

>Lots of you seem to be using Gott coolers for mashtuns, I looked for a
>"Gott" at my local hardware store an they showed me a cylindrical cooler
>labeled "drinking water" .  The capacity was 10 US gallons (gallons shrink
>when they go north).
>
>Is this the thing that I want, is it safe for high temperatures ?
>

The cylindrical cooler you describe is the one made by Rubbermaid.  I have
been told (although I have no personal experience with this) that these
coolers are basically the same as the GOTT coolers.  

By the way these can be purchased mail order from Rubbermaid.  Just call or
write the people listed below and request their catalog that includes water
coolers/ice chests.  The catalog is free.

Rubbermaid Specialty Products 
Consumer Services Department
1147 Akron Road
Wooster, OH 44691-6000
1-800-347-3114 
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Thought for the day:

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning.-J. Buffett
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Mike White
mike at datasync.com


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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 16:50:57 edt
From: paa3765 at dpsc.dla.mil (Steve Adams)
Subject: 

Ladies and Gentlemen Brewers:

     Throughout my life I suffered from the accumulation of gas in the
alimentary canal, otherwise known as flatulence.  The emissions did not have an
odor, but just seemed like so much air escaping in prodigious quantities and
with tremendous force.  (Everyone who has ever lived with me, including my
wife, can attest to all of this.)  However, with the onset of imbibing
homebrewed beer regularly, the condition disappeared.   I could stop drinking
the stuff for awhile to observe whether the problem returned, but I don't care
to do so.   Even it didn't start up again, one could argue that the beer
effected a permanent cure.  And this is what I'd like to think.  On the other
hand, my brewing partner, Michael S., walks around emitting all sorts of
noxious vapors all of the time, especially at the most critical stages of
brewing:  i.e., when we are transferring to the fermenters and aerating the
wort.  I keep warning him that this practice will someday spoil the beer from
coliform "infection" but my protestations fall on deaf ears.  (Skip the
treatises and flames on why zee anal zephyrs are ok at these junctures --
please.)

      But wait, it gets better.  On New Year's Eve, my wife and I had a few
couples over for a couple of drinks, while all of the kids had a party in the
basement.  I served three kinds of homebrew to my guests -- a pale ale, a red
ale, and a stout.  The adults partook readily and everyone laughed and had a
good time.  My son served his homebrewed birch beer downstairs.  At the end of
the night,
after everyone had left, I found my self staring groggily at two dozen or so
empty bottles with a little beer and obligatory yeast at the bottom.  Instead
of dumping the residue down the drain as usual, I emptied them into my mouth
(down my drain), rinsed the bottles, and went straight to sleep.  
But, like thunderheads in the prairie sky before a summer storm, massive
accumulations of gas began to rumble through my alimentary canal, and I had to
wake up to dispel them.  Well, at first I didn't understand what was happening
to me because I was only half awake -- and half besotted.  And for awhile I
found this
amusing, but the activity was violent enough to disrupt my peaceful slumbers
and
my usual dreams of brewing enough ale in one session to fill the town's water
tower.

      Eventually, I rolled over on my stomach and found that the internal force
that I
was generating was great enough to create a short emission or two every few
seconds. 
Thus an embarrassing part of my anatomy became an air lock, and I, poor I,  a
human fermenter of sorts.  I didn't sleep a wink, either.  (Sorry about the
bandwidth.)

 at SA



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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:56:36 -0600
From: mike at datasync.com (Mike White)
Subject: Growing Hops 

On Thu, 25 Jan 1996 dludwig at atc.ameritel.net wrote:

>I want to try growing some hops this year. Does anyone have a mailorder
>source for root cuttings? 

The following suppliers sell hops roots for growing:

Apparently these suppliers place orders for rootstock in early march and
some only place a large enough order to supply rhizomes to customers who
have already placed orders PRIOR to march. So be sure to contact them prior
to March to ensure your order for hops rhizomes is filled.

The Brew Club
Santa Cruz, CA
1-800-995-2739

Great Fermentations of Marin
San Rafael, CA
1-800-570-BEER

The Cellar Homebrew
Seattle, WA
1-800-342-1871

South Bay Homebrew Supply
Torrance, CA
1-800-608-BREW

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Thought for the day:

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning.-J. Buffett
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Mike White
mike at datasync.com


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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:56:38 -0600
From: mike at datasync.com (Mike White)
Subject: Re: microbrewery or brewpub systems

On Fri, 26 Jan 96 Dan_Imperato at vos.stratus.com wrote:

>Hi all,
>   I am posting this for a friend of mine who wants to open a brewpub.
>He would like to know the sources of 6-10bbl systems. I know of Eliot
>Bay Metal Fabricating in Washington but can anyone offer other suggestions?

Try the folks at:

Precision Brewing Systems
P.O. Box 060904
Staten Island, NY 10306
Phone: 718-667-4459
Fax: 718-987-3942
E-Mail: kbjohns at escape.com

They sell some medium to large brewing setups and if they don't carry what
your friend wants, they might be able to point you in the right direction.
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Thought for the day:

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning.-J. Buffett
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Mike White
mike at datasync.com


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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 16:06:44 -0600
From: mike at datasync.com (Mike White)
Subject: Growing Hops 

On Thu, 25 Jan 1996 dludwig at atc.ameritel.net wrote:

>I want to try growing some hops this year. Does anyone have a mailorder
>source for root cuttings? 

Here are 2 more sources for hops rootstock for those of you who want to grow
your own hops.

Henry Field's
Seed & Nursery Co.
415 North Burnett
Shenandoah, Iowa 51602
Phone: 605-665-4491
Fax: 605-665-2601


Gurney's 
Seed & Nursery Co.
110 Capital Street
Yankton, South Dakota 57079
Phone: 605-665-1671
Fax: 605-665-9718

One drawback of these suppliers is that neither of their catalogs state
which varitey of hops they sell...the catalogs just say "hops".
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Thought for the day:

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning.-J. Buffett
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Mike White
mike at datasync.com


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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 17:37:24 -0500
From: "Christopher M. Goll" <cgoll at cc-mail.pica.army.mil>
Subject: Gott Capacity

After 17 extract batches, I've finally gotten the equipment together to go 
all-grain!  I have a 5 gal Gott with a copper tubing manifold and a Fass-Frisch 
(sp?) rubber mini-keg bung for the outlet from the cooler; all as described 
here on the HBD.  Many thanks to everyone who has contributed to this forum.  
(BTW, the F-F bung is a great idea.  It's simple, cheap, works very well and 
leaves the Gott fully functional as intended if I would so desire.  One tip 
though: the segment of tubing I used was cannibalized from my first attempt at 
making a wort chiller, and was not perfectly straight. ;)   A few minor leaks 
were taken care of with some Teflon tape on the tubing at the bung contact 
area.)

My question is this:  What is the maximum weight of grain that can be mashed in 
a 5 gal Gott?  I'm looking for an OG in the high 40's - low 50's, but like to 
make a >5 gal batch.  ( I know, I know, I should have gotten the 10 gallon...)  
I realize the capacity will change given how thick or thin a mash I want to 
have and how deep a grain bed I want, but practically speaking, what is the 
upper limit I should have in mind when formulating a first recipe?  I'm 
considering a simple Pale Ale (two-row Ale malt and some Crystal) with a two-
stage infusion mash.  Any suggestions for mash temperatures, qt's/lb grain, 
etc. to make this as foolproof as possible? 

TIA

Chris
cgoll at pica.army.mil

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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:46:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: SG puzzle/archives

> From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
> Subject: SG calc and measurement

> So I did a test.  10 g DME in 100 ml water yielded 108 ml of wort.
> That is, 10 g of DME increased the volume by 8 ml.  Calculating we
> get: 110/108 = 1.0185
> 
> Then I measured it with my hydrometer: 1.034 !
> 
> To give 1.034 I would have needed 106.4 ml of volume instead of the 108 or
> 11.7 g of DME instead of the 10. Neither measurement can be off by that
> much.  Equipment included a 3-beam balance (calibrated with analytical lab
> equipment) and 100 ml graduated cylinders.  All measurements were made at

I don't know if I can explain this but I have a few comments:
1)
Graduated cylinders are not that accurate, especially the plastic
ones.  I just tested one here in the lab as follows: water from a 100
mL (TC) volumetric flask was dumped into the cylinder.  This increased
the weight by 99.6 g.  The volume read was ~101.5, almost exactly the
error you need to explain your measurement (108-106.4).  Your
conclusion relies on very accurate volume measurement, a difficult
thing to do.  We always try to use weight for accurate measurements.

2)
Unless I am making a mistake I get that 10g in 100 mL yielding 1.034
means

10 g = 4.5E-3 lb
100 mL = 2.6E-2 gal

34 / 4.5E-3 * 2.6E-2 = 196 pts gal / lb instead of 40.  You should have
had 1.0068 not 1.034.

3)
Any good scientist knows that if you get a novel result you should 
repeat the experiment until you get the "right answer."

- ------------------------------------------------
> From: Lynn Ashley <73744.3234 at compuserve.com>
> Subject: Access to FAQs / Aeration
>  
> I've seen several references to brewing FAQs here in the Digest.  
> Where can I access them?  If possible, via ftp, since my web access 
> has been buggy lately.
>  
> Also I understand from someone who attempted to get HB Digests from 
> the archive that they are in some binary (compressed?) format with .Z 
> filename extensions.  Are decoders available for PCs to read these .Z 
> files?  Are the files available somewhere as ASCII text or PKZIP files.

The header of every HBD contains the answer to your question.  Archives
are available by mail and ftp.  If you ftp the file and omit the .z 
it will be unzipped before it is sent to you.  PKUNZIP will decode .z
files I think.

Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb/beerstuff/beerpage.html



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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 15:21:42 PDT
From: elkman at smtp.prostar.com
Subject: virtues of PET bottles

I recently made a trip to Montana where the nightime temperature reached 0 
degree's. on this trip I brought various batches of homebrew in glass and 
PET bottles. Storing my beer on the deck inside a partially opened cooler. 
 In the morning I discovered that the glass bottles had leaked a frozen 
foam around the caps the Pet 2 litre bottles while frozen were still 
intact. On the plane ride home I shed no tears over the discarded PET 
bottles but the case of hand scraped Sam Adams bottles were a real loss.

  I fill my 2 litre bottles with primed beer. I leave a normal air space, 
then just before scewing on my cap I squeeze the beer to the top allowing 
the Co2 to fill the space. try that with glass! 

 The PET bottle is one of the best containers for travelling. They can fit 
in a suitecase or backpack and you essentially are only carrying beer 
weight. Minimal risk of breakage short of the plane crashing. The Cola PET 
bottles make a great road pop container for a passenger who wants to drink 
a stout or porter on a trip through the NW.
 
 The PET bottle can handle twice the pressure of the 12 oz glass bottle. I 
just had three bottles burst in a 6 case stock the mess and brocken glass 
was enough to delay my de-labeling another case of Sam Adams bottles.

Ian Lindner    Elkman at prostar.com                       *
Kent WA  USA
Home of Big Ass Ales 
"I've drank it for years" Santa Claus
"Big Ass Lite"  the proctologists choice!
a subsidiary of big gut beers.




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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 21:07:41 -0500
From: jhewit at freenet.vcu.edu (Jeff Hewit)
Subject: Questions about Bruheat Boiler and EasyMasher



As some others have recently posted, I too am interested in
using an electric boiler.  The weather in Virginia is generally
mild enough to cook outside with a propane burner, but I just
don't want to do it outside.  I also have a phobia about using
electrical appliances that haven't been made by someone who
knows what he/she is doing.  (This leaves me out.)  The
solution appears to be the purchase of a boiler.  The only one
I've seen is the Bruheat boiler.  Has anyone had experience
with this that they'd like to share?  Are there any other
products out there?  I've gathered that electric boilers are
commonly used in homebrewing in the UK.  Does anyone know if
these are being imported?

I've seen a number of ads for the EasyMasher.  It looks real
simple, and sounds like it might work well for mashing and as a
strainer from the brew pot.  Any comments here?



- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Hewit              Eat a live toad first thing in the morning,
Midlothian, Virginia    and nothing worse will happen to you for
                        the rest of the day.  

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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 14:50:15 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Carbonation and fill level/Blowoff sillyness

Although I had convinced myself (through previous experiments) that the
final level of carbonation (I did not test carbonation rate) is not
strongly affected by the fill level, I decided to redo the experiment,
especially since it is so easy to do.  I'll report back in four weeks.

Meanwhile, I'd like to comment on Steavea's expriment.  I no longer have
the original report handy, but I would like to point out that the amount
of "ffft" that you hear is far more affected by the amount of head space
than by carbonation level.  Furthermore, I would respectfully like to
submit the *possibility* that maybe Stevea was slightly biased by the
amount of noise he heard when opening the bottles.  Perhaps this was
not the case and I hope that Stevea understands that I'm not trying to
discredit his work, but rather point out a possible improvement in
future testing.  Specifically, I suggest that the evaluation of the
carbonation level should be done blind -- that is, have someone else
open and pour the bottles into randomly numbered glasses.  Then have
the judge describe the carbonation differences based upon sample number
and without knowing which was which.

This is what I intend to do in my experiment and urge anyone else who
wants to join in, to do likewise.  Furthermore, I only filled two bottles
"high," two "normal," two, "low" and one "very low."  Thus, I cannot
test whether the rate of carbonation is faster with a low fill or not.
This is why my report will be only after four weeks when all the bottles
have had sufficient time to carbonate.

***
Firstly, John Braue attributed someone else's text to me.  I sometimes
agree with Jack, but this isn't one of those times.

Jack writes:
>Let me begin by suggesting that there are no real advantages to the
>blowoff procedure.  So considering that, probably 90% of new brewers
>use the method, is just seems sort of silly, doesn't it.

Now, Jack... since you've never used it, how did you suddenly become an
expert in the blowoff vs. non-blowoff controversy?  Secondly, I'd like to
know where your statistics come from -- 90% of new brewers?  I beg to
differ.  I've introduced well over 300 people to brewing and all but
maybe five started with a 7.5 gallon plastic pail as a fermenter.  I know...
I put the equipment kits together for them!

Now, as for real advantages to the blowoff method, I think that part of the
problem that you don't see an advantage is because you have a 15 gallon
kettle, which can easily hold 10 gallons of fermenting *lager* without
overflowing with kraeusen.  If you only had a 3 gallon kettle and were
making ales (which produce kraeusen at a far greater rate due to the
temperature, primarily) and *had* to ferment in a 7.5 gallon bucket, then
you might occasionally get kraeusen that filled your airlock.  This is
especially true if you are making high-gravity ales (1.070+, perhaps 1.080+).

Now, add to all that a requirement that you be out-of-town for a week at
a time or that you have two jobs or a couple of kids and cannot always rack
your beer out of your plastic fermenter when it's done.  You then would
probably decide that a glass fermenter would be better protection from
oxidation once the beer is fermented-out than those relatively oxygen-
permiable HDPE buckets (I know from first-hand experience that you can
indeed get serious oxidation problems from letting the beer sit in a
plastic bucket too long past fermentation).

Well, if you're lucky, you'll have a store nearby which carries 6-, 6.5-
or 7-gallon glass carboys.  If not, then you're stuck with the 5-gallon
ones and then you have to either use the blowoff method or you have to
make less than 5 gallons of beer.  Even if you do get a 6-gallon or larger
carboy, you can still have the kraeusen reach the top (there have been
many reports in HBD of 5-gallon batches blowing the lids off 7.5-gallon
fementers!).

Therefore, in your system, yes, it is possible to make beer with absolutely
no worries of the kraeusen reaching the top of your fermenter, but that
does not mean that everyone can.

On the other hand, one reason for *not* using the blowoff method that Jack
missed is that some yeasts take being top-fermenting very seriously and will
create a thick cake of yeast that floats on top of the fermenting beer.  If
you use one of these yeasts with the blowoff method, you will be blowing-off
a significant portion of your yeast AND, more importantly, will be blowing-
off the *MOST FLOCCULANT* yeasts leaving the *LESS FLOCCULENT* yeasts to
do most of the fermentation (i.e. selecting for the less flocculent yeasts).

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com
Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas

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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 22:06:12 -0500
From: JDPils at aol.com
Subject: Attitudes on Open vs. Closed Fermentation 

Dear Brewing Collective

Although I cannot say I have never expressed my opinions to others in an
absolute manner it seems several of us have chosen to be critical of each
other on this issue.  I have tasted many excellent beers both fermented open
and closed, although it seems the American Microbrews I enjoy most are
fermented closed. 

 I use the blow off method when I yield enough to fill two 7 gal carboys that
it would risk blowing out of an airlock.  Otherwise I put the airlock on and
let it ferment.  I would have to clean up and isolate an area of my garage to
fell comfortable with open fermentation. The only way I would change my
method is if I used a keg to ferment in one container.  For some of my brews
this would interest me.  The downside of this is I cannot use my
refridgerator for controlling lager temps and I cannot try two yeasts on the
same batch. I suppose two open fermenters could be done too, but now I have
twice the cost.  Last, I prefer not to use plastic.

Since much of the trub sticks to the glass or is blown out,  I view this as
an alternate as skimming.  Frankly how is it any easier to boil water in a
half keg versus soaking two carboys, tubes, and pails in bleach or idophor?
  In my opinion I have never considered cleaning a carboy after fermentation
as difficult and it always comes clean.

With some low flocculating yeasts open fermentation will help clarify the
beer by removing it.  This leads to the advantage of collecting clean yeast
for repitching.  However I repitch the same yeast three times right from the
primary with no off flavors from the remaining trub. 

I think this issue is a matter of preference and not one sided as some have
presented.   In my opinion its similar to our preferences in styles of beer
and  I for one have heard nothing here on this topic to go run out and start
open fermenting.

While I appreciate the technical information I wish it was presented in a
constructive manner.

                                      
There's definately is a myriad of beer and brewing procedures all of which
are not silly so, 
                                                          
                                          Relax and Have a Homebrew!

                                                         Jim Dunlap



    

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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 22:59:41 -0500
From: PEthen at aol.com
Subject: Cancel

Cancel my mail!!!!!!!!!

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Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:09:37 +0000
From: "Rick Gontarek, Ph.D." <gontarek at fcrfv1.ncifcrf.gov>
Subject: Recipe needed for a Helles

Hi Everyone,

I would like to know if anyone has a good recipe for a Munich Helles 
that they'd be willing to share. I have been an all-grainer for a 
few years now and feel that I am ready to try a decotcion mash. I 
have seen a few recipes for a Helles style beer, but those were not 
using a decotcion mash. Am I right in believeing that the nice 
golden color and maltiness comes from decoction? I have read the 
article on decoction mashing from the first issue of "Brew Your Own" 
magazine, and I plan to get the decoction faq as well. If anyone has 
any good recipes or just general advice, please forward them to me. 
Thanks a lot!

Cheers,

Rick Gontarek
Owner/Brewmaster of The Major Groove Picobrewery
Frederick, MD
gontarek at fcrfv1.ncifcrf.gov

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Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 07:10:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: "mike spinelli" <paa3983 at dpsc.dla.mil>
Subject: Are you guys NUTS!

Am I to understand that some of you shake the carboy while _holding_ it?

No wonder why the 'boys are dropping like flies.  All I do is place the 'boy
on a carpeted floor, put one hand on top of opening (covered by saran wrap)
and the other hand gripping the 'boys neck.  Then I just pivet one side up
and shake back and forth, always keeping part of the 'boy on the floor.  All
the weight is centered on the edge that rests on the carpet.  No risk of
dropping the 'boy or busting a nut.

Mike in Cherry Hill NJ

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Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 09:26:45 -0500
From: PVanslyke at aol.com
Subject: confusing terminology



In reading this digest, I have seen some terminology used in a variety of
ways. 

As I'm easily confused (can't be too much beer ;) I decided to investigate.

Here is a short list of words and definitions from "The Practical Brewer",
published by Master Brewers Association of America, copyright, 1948.

Kraeusen - The foamy head on beer in fermentation. Also the stage of beer
during fermentation while producing a foam head.

Sparge - To distribute water over grains or hops in order to wash out
extract.

Trub - The haze or flock appearing in wort by boiling or cooling.

Paul -- 


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Date: 30 Jan 1996 09:28:46 U
From: "Manning Martin MP" <manning_martin_mp at mcst.ae.ge.com>
Subject: SG Measurements Correction

Oops! I made a slight error in my post on SG measurements.  That's what I get
for being hasty; should have saved that cancellation number!  I think this is
okay now:

>So I did a test.  10 g DME in 100 ml water yielded 108 ml of wort.
>That is, 10 g of DME increased the volume by 8 ml.  Calculating we
>get: 110/108 = 1.0185...

>...Then I measured it with my hydrometer: 1.034 !

See if this is a convincing argument:  Let's say your initial volume of water
is good, so that initial100 ml weighs 99.8 g  (0.998 = density of water at 20
deg C, or close enough, anyway).  Then, you have 109.8 g of solution, giving
10*0.97/109.8 = 0.0883 = 8.83 Deg Plato = 1.0353 SG  at 15.5 deg C.  Not too far
from your hydrometer reading, eh?

**I forgot the 0.97 yield of typical dry extract last time**

If that's right, the real density of the mixture should have been
1.0353*0.999 = 1.0343 (from SG = dens/dens H2O), and the volume would have
been 110/1.0343 = 106.35 ml at 15.5 C.  That might be 106.36*0.999/0.998 =
106.46  at  20 C, so there must be a 108/106.46 = 1.4% cumulative error in
volume somewhere. (was 1.6% before)

MPM



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