---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Re Boiling Over ((Aesoph, Michael))
  Summer Wort Chilling (John Chang)
  Re: Re. US Homebrew, late harvest, Elk Mt.,applejack ((Tam Thompson))
  Boilovers ("Mark C. Bellefeuille")
  Water (korz at pubs.ih.lucent.com)
  Big Al... (Scott Abene)
  Re: Counter pressure fillers ((Ed J. Basgall))
  Re: Boiling Over ((John A. DeCarlo))
  Reinheitsgebot (Richard Taft)
  Hot Water Heater Elements (Kelly Jones)
  Lager Tanks?? ((Graydon Scott McKee IV))
  Rinsing bleach (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Reinheitsgebot (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: Boilovers ended (Alan Stevens)
  more on foam-skimming (Gregory King)
  Boil over/Compost (RUSt1d?)
  Indigenous Beers (Jim Busch)
  phosphoric acid?/lax/mash pH/Big Irene (korz at pubs.ih.lucent.com)
  Elk Mountain (<Ron_Barbercheck at MB01.CCMAIL.CompuServe.COM>)
  HSA (Hot Something Aeration) ("Aaron Herrick")
  RE: brewery size vs SI units ("Pat Babcock")
  Thermally challenged yeast ("Kirk Harralson")

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: aesoph at ncemt1.ctc.com (Aesoph, Michael)
Date: 28 Aug 96 11:28:02 EDT
Subject: Re Boiling Over

Collective: 
 
 
 
 An instant cure for boil overs is to blow on the wort.  Most of the 
"stuff" trying to boil over is just bubbles, and the thermal shock from 
blowing on them will burst them and prevent boil overs - try it, you'll 
be very surprised!  Another trick is to just mount a small fan to blow 
just over the brim of your pot......  No more frantic moving around of a 
near boiling pot - don't do that, it's dangerous. 
 
 
 
================================================== 
 
        Michael D. Aesoph                Associate Engineer 
 
================================================== 
 

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From: John Chang <75411.142 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 28 Aug 96 10:52:58 EDT
Subject: Summer Wort Chilling

Greetings, 
 
Bob at Carol.net pours ice water through his immersion chiller to drop his wort 
those final 3-4 degrees to pitching temperature. Earlier this spring, I went to
the local Home Depot and acquired a 4 gal/min submersible "garden" pump, 
(around
$40) which I hook up to my chiller via 3/8" tubing and ss clamps. 
 
Once my boil is over and I have everything hooked up, I immerse the pump in a 
sink full of  water and start pumping.  The exhaust (very hot) water goes out 
the other side of the sink, and once this has dropped to ~100 degrees, the pump
goes straight into a 5 gal bucket filled with icewater made from frozen 1 gal 
plastic milk jugs, crushed). After a few minutes the exhaust water is cool 
enough to just recirculate back into the bucket. 
 
Total time to get the wort from boiling to ~75F is 23 minutes.  As this is the 
only "automated" step of my brewing process, I look forward to this phase so I 
can watch my thermometer confirm the temp drop and remind me that the $40 was 
well worth the investment by reducing my overall brewing time. I have never had
an infection and contribute this to careful sanitation and the efficiency of my
chilling process. 
 
Chillin' in Southern Calif, 
John 
 

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From: Tamth at mail.utexas.edu (Tam Thompson)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:05:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Re. US Homebrew, late harvest, Elk Mt.,applejack

Hi Bob, 
        Thanks for the info,  I appreciate it. 
BTW, 
 
>Tam Thompson wonders if his applejack lager will clear if he uses cloudy 
cider:
                         ^^^                               ^^ 
Although it's not immediately apparent by e-mail, I'm a "her!"   :-) 
There are a few of us around in brewing, you know (I seem to recall 
it's about 2.7%, as of the latest AHA survey in Zymurgy.) 
("Tam" as in "Tamara", see?)   But no harm done!   ;-) 
> 
>My one experience with making hard cider suggests that it should come out 
>nice and clear.  I used murky cider straight from the press and it produced 
>a very clear hard cider (albeit somewhat vinegary).  BTW, if you buy your 
>cider from the supermarket or even from the cider mill it will probably have 
>preservatives that will inhibit (or kill) your yeast.  I went to the cider 
>mill and asked the guy in charge to fill my bucket the next time they made a 
>batch.  I didn't need to, but a few bottles of homebrew can be very 
>effective in getting favors from people. 
 
Yes, I've done this with a local juice company here in Austin, Goodflow. 
I'll just buy some of their organic, unpasteurized apple juice. 
I'm hoping the apple beer will clear as nicely as cider always does. 
 
                See ya, 
                Tam 
 
 
 
      Tam Thompson, Ph.D. candidate, Tamth at mail.utexas.edu 
      Mechanical Systems & Design Area, Robotics Research Group 
      Mechanical Engineering Department, The University of Texas at Austin 
 
 

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From: "Mark C. Bellefeuille" <mcb at abrams.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:12:54 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Boilovers

 
Just a data point. 
Brewed a 5 gal pale 10days ago, in a 20 gal ss pot, on a 170K btu burner. 
Boiled over without any problems. 
So don't just trust your brewpot size: watch your boils. 
 
Keep brewing, 
Mark      mcb at abrams.com 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

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From: korz at pubs.ih.lucent.com
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 96 10:21:03 CDT
Subject: Water

Bill writes: 
>OK Burton water has 270 ppm of Calcium, 60 ppm of magnesium, 30 ppm of 
>sodium, 200 ppm of bicarbonate, 640 ppm of sulfate and 40 ppm of 
>chloride.  That comes to 1240 ppm of what is show.  I do know that the 
>water in Burton does not all have the above some more some less depending 
>on lots of variables.  The pH is about 7+/-. 
 
First of all, ignore the water pH.  What matters is the pH of the mash and 
there's no way of telling (without some heavy-duty calculation) what the 
pH of the mash will be given a particular water. 
 
>To make a good bitter or pale ale in the Burton style what of the above 
>must you have?  I have had some Pils that had a nice long bitter finish 
>and the water in that beer had very little of anything in it. 
 
To make a good Bitter in the Burton style (note that when the popularity 
of Burton Ales skyrocketed, many brewers in the UK started adding gypsum 
and possibly other salts to their water in an effort to imitate Burton 
water -- it's called "Burtonising") you need to make sure there is enough 
sulphate in the water and then you may have to adjust the pH down with 
calcium carbonate so the pH is not too low (it depends on your water). 
1 teaspoon of gypsum (calcium sulphate) in 1 gallon of water will give 
about 28 ppm of SO4.   Once you mash-in, measure the pH and add chalk 
(calcium carbonate) till the pH is in the 5.2 - 5.5 range. 
 
>>>Al K said: 
> Since the brewers in 
>Pilsen have very low calcium levels, they have to use an acid rest which 
>is an enzymatic way of lowering pH (phytase makes phytic acid). 
><< 
> 
>So what is wrong with an acid rest I do it all the time on my Pil and 
>German style lagers rather then adding gypsum.  I prefer the softer 
>smoother beer that I get by leaving the gypsum in its bag.  As a matter 
>of fact I lost the bag of gypsum that I was using and have not bothered 
>to find it as I enjoy a softer smoother beer. 
 
Nothing is *wrong* with it.  You are correct to use the acid rest for 
your Bohemian and German Pils (Munich water only has 10 ppm of sulphate 
according to Darryl Richman's Bock, which I'm now reading).  Actually, 
it would be stylistically incorrect to add gypsum to these recipes.  It 
does indeed give a smoother brew -- you obviously *do* notice the effect 
of sulphate.  Alternatively, you could add lactic or phosphoric acids 
to lower pH without adding sulphate.  I believe that these acids do pull 
calcium out of the water (AJ?) so that you could end up with not enough 
to protect enzymes or form beerstone. 
 
>So the moral of the story is you do not really need a great deal of 
>Calcium in you water to make a good or even great beer. 
 
Correct, but it does make it *easier* to brew.  Note that in my initial 
post on this subject (this time around) I said that calcium *helps* 
you brew.  Incidentally, you can add calcium via calcium chloride and 
get the pH reduction effect (and other benefits) without the bitterness- 
enhancing and drying effect of the sulphate.  I wonder how much of the 
long lagering time in Bohemian Pils (very low calcium water) is for 
removing oxalate haze... anyone know if lagering will precipitate out 
oxalate haze? 
 
>>>Al K again: 
>  If you made a stout with Pilsen water it would be more acid than it 
>should.  The reason stouts work so well in Dublin is because the acidity 
>of the dark grains balances the alkalinity of the high-carbonate water. 
><< 
> 
>Once you have adjusted you stout mash to 5.3 pH do you have to add more 
>salts to the mash to approximate Dublin water or is having you mash pH at 
>5.3 enough? 
 
I would stop at 5.3.  Note that Guinness sours part of their beer, pasteurizes 
it and adds that back into the main batch.  I would not be surprised if this 
was done to counterbalance the extremely high levels of carbonate.  I think 
you have a very good point here.  Thanks for pointing it out. 
 
>>>Al K: 
>  Here's a perfect example: 
>I tried brewing a Bohemian Pilsner with Chicago water + distilled.  About 
>1/3 of the water was distilled, 2/3 Chicago water.  I believe that we have 
>25 ppm of sulphate in our water.  The resulting beer was good and drinkable 
>and marginally in-style, but it had a slight increase in bitterness in the 
>finish which is due to the sulphate. 
><< 
> 
>This is exactly the reason the German beer use less hops then the Czech 
>Pils and yet the amount of bitterness is very similar my be that the 
>German Pils may even seem hoppier. 
 
Well, consider that I had about 17 ppm of sulphate in my beer and Munich 
water has about 10.  If I miscalculated volumes, it could very well 
have been double the amount of sulphate in Munich water.  I tasted many 
beers while in Munich and the rest of Bavaria last summer and I don't 
recall a significant increase in the bitterness in the finish.  Perhaps I 
was overly critical of my own beer, but I think that the bitterness rose 
in the finish too much even for a Munich lager.  Compared to the non-Bavarian 
German Pils...  now there you may have another good point. 
 
>Once you have adjusted your mash and brewing water into the appropriate 
>range do you really have to add more to duplicate a particular water? If 
>so why? 
> 
>The brewing waters with high concentrations of stuff, what is the amount 
>of buffering in these waters?  How does this effect how much of the 
>chemical are available to affect the brewing process? 
 
I'm no chemist, so I'll leave this for them to answer, but the one buffering 
effect I *do* know that occurs is that carbonate/bicarbonate ions prevent 
the lowering of the pH.  I *believe* that most of the other ions associated 
with brewing are only weakly acid or alkaline and affect the pH slightly. 
 
My understanding is that how an ion affects the pH depends on how soluble 
the compounds are that it forms (like magnesium carbonate is more soluble 
than calcium carbonate, so you can't boil out much carbonate if you have 
a lot of magnesium in your water) and on how many hydrogens or hydroxide 
ions it can "capture" or "release" into the soup (i.e. H3PO4 can release 
three hydrogens).  I would be interested in learning more about this.  AJ? 
 
Al. 
 
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL 
korzonas at lucent.com 
Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas 

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From: Scott Abene <sabene at fcg.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:35:52 -0600
Subject: Big Al...

 
>From: Isabel Robles <irobles at total.net> 
>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 20:59:59 -0400 
>Subject: RE: Big Al... 
> 
>> 
>> Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL 
>> korzonas at lucent.com 
>> Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas 
> 
>What is this? 
 
Okay, let's go through this step by step. 
 
*The first half of the first line "Al Korzonas": 
 
This appears to be a name of some kind perhaps a noun. 
 
*The second half of the first line "Palos Hills, IL": 
 
This could be an address or possibly a place of residence of said noun from 
the first line. 
 
*The second line I will break down into three parts, 
 
1. "korzonas": this seems to be another example of said noun from the first 
line. 
2. " at ": this is an "at" sign 
3. "lucent.com": this is an internet service provider (lucent= service 
provider .= dot com= commercial) 
 
*The third line "Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas" seems pretty straight forward: 
 
This line is simply stating that said noun from the first line has taken 
the time to register said nouns entire posting to the HBD with the US 
copyright office. By doing this, all persons or people wishing to use or 
quote from said nouns HBD post should ask for permission from said nouns 
lawyers or face criminal charges and federal copyright infringement. 
 
Thank you for your time and I hope that we are now all clear on this. 
 
- -Scott "I am a Humorless Bastard" Abene 
 
*** all copy/references to Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL, 
korzonas at lucent.com, Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas used with permission from 
Al Korzonas and his money grubbing lawyers. 
 
Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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From: edb at chem.psu.edu (Ed J. Basgall)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:45:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Counter pressure fillers

 
Hi Chuck: 
 
There is an article in "Brew Your Own" magazine (Nov. 1995 Vol 1, #5, 
pp.51-56. email: BYO at byo.com) that shows you how to construct your own counter 
pressure
filler for about $20.00.  Also Zymurgy (Vol 18, #3, pp.56-63. email: 
dena at aob.org  -Dena Nishek-editor) reviews 7 commercially available 
counter pressure fillers and one home-made filler.  Zymurgy provided a nice 
summary evaluation with prices and sources. 
 
cheers 
 
Ed Basgall 
SCUM (State College Underground Maltsters) 
"Beer - It's more than just a breakfast drink, it's a way of life" 
 

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From: jdecarlo at mail04.mitre.org (John A. DeCarlo)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 96 12:34:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Boiling Over

Matthew Saunders writes: 
 
>This certainly works, but I think that a significant portion of that 
"scum" 
>is hop residue. 
 
First of all, though I did not say so, I do this before adding any hops.  I 
have found that this "film" or "scum" can coat the hops, reducing 
utilization.  Also, it just makes things easier to get rid of the "scum" 
first.  Besides, I rarely put in hops for more than 60 minutes, so they go 
in only after the wort has been boiling awhile. 
 
If you put in the hops right away (first wort hopping or some variant), 
would there be any hop component in the "scum"?  It may be, but I don't 
know of any reason to think that is the case. 
Anyone out there know for sure? 
 
Also, to describe in more detail, when you put the wort on the heat to 
start it boiling, this "scum" forms before it gets visibly boiling.  On my 
gas stove that takes about 5-10 minutes.  It continues to form as the wort 
gets visibly boiling, so I skim it off for about 10-15 minutes until no 
more forms and the wort is starting to roil away happily. 
 
I have thought that this "scum" is related to "hot break" and that you 
don't lose anything by getting rid of it, as you don't want hot break in 
your fermenter anyway. 
 
Hmmm. 
John DeCarlo, jdecarlo at burp.org 
 

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From: Richard Taft <rtaft at grtadv.shl.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:38:10 -0400
Subject: Reinheitsgebot

  I did a quick web search and found a version of the German 
  Purity Law in German at <http://www.beir.de/b-020d.html>. 
  The text printed there seems to match the translation that 
  Michael Gerholdt (gerholdt at ait.fredonia.edu) posted here. 
 
  The text states "gersten, hopfen un wasser" where gersten 
  means barley.  Gerstenmalz would be barley malt. 
 
  (According to this site, there was also a brewer's oath that 
  predates the 1516 Reinheitsgebot.  It also says "barley, 
  hops and water".) 
 
  There is a 1987 law that updates the old law.  It uses 
  Gestenmalz, but allows some other adjuncts under certain 
  conditions.  See the English translation at 
  <http://www.acadiau.ca/cc/alan/brew/info/reinheitsgebot-e.html> 
  or the German version at 
  <http://www.acadiau.ca/cc/alan/brew/info/reinheitsgebot-d.html> 
 
  Finally, I've heard that European law supersedes the 1987 
  law. 
 
  For an interesting discussion about the Reinheitsgebot, look 
  at "The Reinheitsgebot - what a load of bollocks" at 
  <http://www.xs4all.nl/~patto1ro/reinheit.htm>. 
 
  Cheers! 
 
  -Rick Taft 
  rtaft at grtadv.shl.com 

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From: Kelly Jones <kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:45:15 -0700
Subject: Hot Water Heater Elements

While checking out the Web Pages of PlumbingSupply.com (I'm ordering some 
stainless fittings for my brew system) I noticed they supply the elements 
discussed here recently for RIMS heaters (see 
http://PlumbingSupply.Com/elements.html ).  They have extra low density, 
Incoloy elements (5500W  at  240V) for 24.95.  No affiliation, not even a 
customer until today. 
 
Kelly 

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From: greymark at ix.netcom.com (Graydon Scott McKee IV)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:51:44 -0700
Subject: Lager Tanks??

I was woundering if anyone knew of any comerical lagering tanks for the 
homebrewer or if one can be made cheeply without having a extra fridge? 
I am interested in brewing a lager or two and would like to get started 
doing that with the minimal amount of money spent.  Any suggestions? 

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From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:00:27 -0800
Subject: Rinsing bleach

I'm a few days behind on my digests so I hope I'm not 
repeating, but bleach is not hard to rinse.  Here is why I say that: 
 
My sterilzation (oops) method is as follows: at the beginning of the 
brew day I make up some 50 ppm bleach in a clean bucket.  This 
is my rinse water. (All you guys who rinse with hot water: think 
about it--you are recontaminating what you just "sanitized."  It 
may work for you and if it does, why worry, but it doesn't seem 
to me like the best method.)  By letting it sit at this concentration 
for a few hours I feel confident that the water itself, if not the 
container, is bug-free.  I use very high concentrations of 
bleach on my equipment, like 1 oz bleach/gal (actually a good 
splash).  I then rinse with the above rinse water.  I rinse 
by adding ~14 oz of the rinse water to the carboy and swirling 
it around to touch all the surfaces.  I do two rinses. 
 
Using the same bleach test papers that I use to make the rinse 
water to 50 ppm, I have tested the concentration of the first 
rinse coming out.  It was indistinguishable from 50 ppm (which 
means it was less than about 70 ppm).  Since the residue on the 
carboy is ~500 ppm one would have to argue that bleach is so hard 
to rinse that it is stuck to the glass and so I don't see it coming 
out.  If this were the case, the second rinse wouldn't get it 
out and it would be mixed with my beer.  Since I don't get 
off flavors, either 1)you can not effectively rinse really strong 
bleach from your equipment without worry or 2)bleach is easy to rinse. 
 
Note: no need to use hot water, mine's at room temperature. 
 
Dave Harsh writes: 
> 2.  BIG WARNING ON CLOROX!  Clorox has switched formulation and is no 
> longer chlorine bleach, it is now using lye. 
 
I find this hard to believe since it would no longer be an effective 
product for whitening clothes.  Laundry detergent already provides 
the high pH environment that lye would offer as a cleaning agent. 
Just smell the bottle, it would be easy to tell if there is chlorine 
bleach in it. 
 
Jeremy Bergsman 
mailto:jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu 
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb 

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From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:57:04 -0400
Subject: Reinheitsgebot

A translated excerpt from the "current" German beer purity law was 
posted to alt.beer in 1993 by John Dieter Stuewe (at the time, 
jds at uni-paderborn.de).  I excerpt it further here.  The translation is 
quite literal (e.g. "low fermented" meaning "bottom fermented"). 
 
 
Brewing Beer 
 
( 1) For brewing low fermented beer may only be used barley-malt, 
     hops, yeast and water, except of the prescriptions in the 
     paragraphs (4) to (6). 
 
( 2) The brewing of top fermented beer is subjected to the same 
     prescription; however the use of other malt and the use of 
     technical pure cane- , beet- invert- or starch sugar and 
     colour-matter made out of the sugar described above is allowed 
     too. 
 
( 3) Malt means every type of grain, that is artificially made 
     sprouting. 
 
 
I found the full text of his message at 
 http://www.ot.com/~kevinb/reinheitsgebot.english.html 
 
It also seems clear that the 1516 law said "Gersten", which translates 
as "barley".  At one time, I thought I found a facsimile copy of the 
original proclamation on-line, but I can't locate it now. 
 
=Spencer 

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From: Alan Stevens <stevensa at ctt.bellcore.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:02:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Boilovers ended

"Meisner Wallie MSM GRPP US" made the comment 
 
> Use a huge pot, like a 17 gallon stainless steel keg/pot. 
 
Well, I used to think this as well. I use a converted sanke keg, and 
there is lots of room for the foam to rise. Most brews wont make it to 
the top and over, BUT, if you turn your back it, the gods get angry. 
 
I had gone into the house to get something, and returned to one of the 
worst boilovers I have seen. Real fun cleaning the guck out of the ring 
burner ! 
 
 
Al Stevens 

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From: Gregory King <GKING at ARSERRC.Gov>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:47:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: more on foam-skimming

J. Matthew Saunders <saunderm at vt.edu> responded to an earlier post about 
avoiding boilovers: 
 
>John writes: 
 
> >Let me repeat my own method for avoiding boilovers: 
> > 
> >Skim the scum that forms just before it gets roiling.  This scum/film 
> >covers the wort and traps air which allows it to boil over.  Skim it with a 
> >strainer or spoon for a few minutes and you can leave the room for the next 
> >hour and a half with no worries. 
 
>This certainly works, but I think that a significant portion of that "scum" 
>is hop residue.  <snip> 
 
This foam/film only contains hop residue if you've already added hops to the 
boil (how do you like *that* logic?).  If you boil your wort for 15 minutes 
before your first hops addition, you can skim off the foam without removing 
any good stuff. 
 
Greg King 
gking at arserrc.gov 
 

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From: RUSt1d? <rust1d at li.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:45:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Boil over/Compost

>I had gone into the house to get something, and returned to one of the 
>worst boilovers I have seen. Real fun cleaning the guck out of the ring 
>burner ! 
 
This may be a good argument for flame-thrower type burners. To avoid boil 
over, I add ice cubes as necessary. To avoid boil over clean-up, I brew 
outside. 
 
When composting, it is always best to turn the pile to get some of the 
organisms in the pile on top of the grains to speed the process (and cover 
the stench!). I dumped all my kettle break/hop residue and fermenter trub 
into a large flower pot during the course of the winter (over 200 gallons 
worth) and then planted tomatoes and hot peppers in the pot this spring. 
The plants are doing wonderful and show no ill effects from hop/trub/yeast 
poisoning. 
 
Is it feasible to paint a sanke keg with engine paint or will paint peel 
or scratch right off stainless steel? I thought about painting my sankes 
black (external only of course) since they are impossible to keep clean. 
 
Who can tell me the proper amount of what S.G. wort to krausen a 5 gallon 
corny keg to carbonate? Is there some kind of formula to use? 
 
John Varady 
Boneyard Brewing Co. 
"Ale today, Gone tomorrow" 
 

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From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:20:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Indigenous Beers

Bill Ridgely wrote: 
 
<Sorghum beer predates western-style clear beer by a thousand 
<years or so and, while certainly very different from it, is 
<neither foul smelling or repulsive. Whether or not it is 
<"beer" depends on your definition. Historically, beer is 
<described simply as "a fermented beverage made from grain". Not 
<all societies make beer from barley malt, and use of hops to 
<flavor beer is a relatively recent (and European) innovation. 
 
Excellent points from our resident indigenous beer authority!  Bill 
knows of what he speaks.  Ive had Bills version of an "opaque beer" 
even though I cant remember exactly what it was supposed to be. It 
was not bad at all, certainly quite milky and a bit scary to us 
western trained palates.  The key is that it was neither repulsive 
nor foul smelling although these terms could just as easily describe 
several commercial western breweries that I know!  ;-) 
 
Progress is not always advancement. 
 
Jim Busch 

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From: korz at pubs.ih.lucent.com
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 96 13:38:41 CDT
Subject: phosphoric acid?/lax/mash pH/Big Irene

Dave writes: 
>I guess you know all about the effect calcium has in reacting with 
>the grist components to release phosphoric acid and drop the pH... 
 
I thought it was the other way around... calcium reacts with with 
something like H2PO4- to release two H+ and precipitate as calcium 
phosphate.  Is that close? 
 
*** 
Dave writes: 
>I have always assumed this 
>laxative quality was due to an over-active hand on the part of the brewer in 
>adding magnesium sulfate  (Epsom salts) to get a better bittering cheaply. 
 
I've read both... that magnesium is a laxative and that sulphate is a 
laxative.  Which is it?  I know that Burton-on-Trent water is relatively 
high in both *naturally* so that Burtonised water could very well produce 
laxative beer regardless of which ion is the culprit.  I would like to know 
which it is, nonetheless -- my guess is it's the magnesium. 
 
As for cheap bittering, I don't believe it. Why would a brewer choose to 
use magnesium sulphate to increase sulphate if he/she could use gypsum 
(calcium sulphate) and add calcium too? 
 
*** 
Ken writes (on the subject of the difference between a 5.2 pH mash and a 
5.8 pH mash): 
>High alkalinity in your beer can harshen hop flavor, hinder break 
>development, and darken/redden your beer. 
 
I agree on the 2nd and 3rd effects and have read the 1st, but have always 
been skeptical.  I think that alkaline mashes produce harsher beer due to 
the tannins that they extract from the husks and hops.  I think this harshness 
is from astringency not anything to do with actual hop bitterness changes. 
I feel that tannin extraction is the primary flavour difference when doing 
a high pH mash. 
 
*** 
Isabel asks about my copyright. 
 
Isabel-- 
The place for such questions is private email, not the HBD.  The HBD 
membership could not care less that you disapprove of my copyright. 
 
Since you ask, I will answer your question.  It is a copyright notice. 
Despite the fact that everything we post has an implicit copyright, 
full protection under the law is much easier to get when the copyright 
is explicit. 
 
You apparently are unaware of the fact that there is a company selling 
back issues of HBD on CD-ROM.  This is a violation of my copyright as 
well as that of everyone elses who posts.  While I'm not interested in 
making money from my HBD posts, I also don't want someone making money 
off my and others' work.  I'm far too busy to deal with this now, but 
at some point in future, I plan to take this company to court and to get 
them to return all profits from the sales of the HBD.  The rightful 
owners are the authors of the posts but distribution would be tricky 
and impractical and just the distribution costs would probably bankrupt 
the company.  I think the proper place for the money to go would be the 
AOB since they are now taking on the burden of distributing the HBD. 
 
Next time you have a complaint or personal question, I suggest you 
use private email and not waste HBD bandwidth and the time of all 
its subscribers. 
 
Look out Isabel... here it comes again!!! 
 
Al. 
 
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL 
korzonas at lucent.com 
Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas 

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From: <Ron_Barbercheck at MB01.CCMAIL.CompuServe.COM>
Date: 28 Aug 96 15:53:33 EDT
Subject: Elk Mountain

     Please excuse any breeches of etiquette, this is my first time. 
        In response to Mark Warrington's inquiry re: Elk Mountain.  The 
     stuff exists here in the Chicago market.  Doesn't AB market this under 
     the "Specialty Brewing" name?  A crafty way to make people think the 
     product is from a micro or craft brewer.  They do the same with Red 
     Wolf.  Maybe AB is trying to do for darker brews what they did to 
     lager beer (Budweiser); make a beer that appeals to all beer drinkers. 
     Of interest are a few specialty/craft type brews produced for the 
     local market that I tasted after the AB tour in St. Louis recently. 
     Faust (a pre-prohibition lager), Muenchener (an amber lager) and Black 
     and Tan (something of a Porter-ish brew).  The lager was good and 
     shows that AB can really make a lager worth drinking.  The Muenchener 
     was any thing but.  It tasted more like Brown Ale.  I don't thing the 
     mash tank saw anything that resembled Munich Malt.  And the Black and 
     Tan was okay, but the guy would only pour a little in the bottom of my 
     cup with the admonition that it was very heavy and that I might want 
     to sip it first to see if I liked it.  You know, I might be one of 
     those Bud drinkers or something. 
        Hey, does the homebrew competition at FX Matts include the original 
     Matts' corn lager style that I used to buy when I was in college?  If 
     so, should entries be submitted in an old Matts' beer ball?  Just 
     wondering. 
 

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From: "Aaron Herrick" <chemstat at phoenix.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:02:09 -0500
Subject: HSA (Hot Something Aeration)

Dear Collective, 
 
With your extensive and unknowing help I have successfully put my first 
all-grain ale to my fermenter and its happily gurgling away. THANKS! 
 
Now my question: 
Hot Aeration has been discussed up and down both here and in R.C.B.. 
Generally thought of as a bad thing, stale flavors, etc.  I had minimized 
this with my extract brews, greatly improving the flavor and shelf life of 
my beer. 
When sparging my grain with a rotating sparge arm, I noticed ample 
opportunity for aeration and this brings up two theories I would like you 
to criticize: 
1) aeration poses no danger until the addition of hops 
 
2) aeration of sparge water is minimal, as very little air can dissolve 
into 168F water.  The danger to wort is that the oxygen is reacting with 
the wort at a rate close to the rate oxygen is dissolving into the wort. 
 
 
A reasonable analogy is filling a lauter tun with the spigot open.  As you 
fill the tun, the water leaks out the spigot, sorta like oxygen moving 
from the air into a dissolved state(in the tun) through a reaction (out 
the spigot). 
 
Dave B., Al K., and everyone else,  it's open season! :) 
 
Regards, 
Aaron Herrick 
 
Brewing is a sport. Wear a cup. 
 

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From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at ford.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:36:39 -0400
Subject: RE: brewery size vs SI units

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... 
 
Dan Goodale (Yes! That is his real name!) asks the picobrewery question... 
 
Naw! That's TOO much engineering. Think more in terms of mega, maxi, micro 
(consumer definitions), then throw an engineer into the works to confuse it 
with SI. Since micros are commercial, we're pico. Now, stand on your head and 
have someone step on your left earlobe. Hard. Suddenly the rest makes sense: 
Attobreweries are not related to SI at all. These are the guys that win all 
the competitions and get all the attoboys. Decibreweries, like Al K, only 
brew in the winter. Centibreweries brew prohibition beer to save money. Nano 
- - and Millibreweries are run by women; nanos having children. It should be 
obvious that femtobreweries are run by feminists. 
 
Did I miss any? 
 
Pat Babcock 
Drinking far too much homebrew in SE MI (Too much is never enough!) 
pbabcock at oeonline.com 
http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html 

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From: "Kirk Harralson" <kwh at smtpgwy.roadnet.ups.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 96 17:00:54 EST
Subject: Thermally challenged yeast

The current thread on yeast viability at elevated temperatures struck 
a chord with me relating to a post in the Mead Lovers' Digest from 
earlier this year (originally the Cider digest): 
 
   >Posting 18: Extracted from file:  461 
   >Subject: Sweet and sparkling. 
   >From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com> 
   >Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 13:54:40 -0600 
 
   >The question of how to make a sweet, sparkling mead comes up every so 
   >often in MLD, and I noticed in Cider Digest (which Dick Dunn also 
   >maintains) a post about doing that with Cider.  I thought someone here 
   >might find it useful.  I'm definately going to try it eventually.  I'm 
   >not sure if the times involved with cider would be the same with meads. 
 
   >- ----- Begin Included Message ----- 
 
   >Subject: sweet, carbonated cider 
   >From: John B Gilmour <jbgilm at malthus.morton.wm.edu> 
   >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:21:34 -0500 (EST) 
 
   >I have made several batches of sweet, carbonated cider.  The problem, 
   >of course, is how to kill of the yeast in the bottle.  The first time I 
   >made it, I bottled and capped the cider and left it to ferment 
   >overnight.  The next day I boiled the bottles in large kettles.  About 
   >a third of them exploded spectacularly.  Since then I have learned two 
   >things.  First, sweet cider does not have to ferment long in the 
   >bottle.  A little carbonation is plenty, and reduces the probability of 
   >the bottle exploding.  A couple of hours is enough.  Second, immersing 
   >the bottles in water straight from the hot water heater will suffice to 
   >kill the yeast.  I set the water heater to 140 degrees Fahrenheit, put 
   >the bottles in a fermenting bucket and filled it with water, and that 
   >killed the yeast very dead.  It does not even take long -- less than an 
   >hour.  As soon as they are dead, the yeast drop out of suspension 
   >quickly and form a sludge on the bottom.  The cider fully clears over 
   >another week or so. 
 
   >- ----- End Included Message ----- 
 
I really liked this idea, and was going to try it on a pyment that is currently
over-staying it's welcome in my secondary. I guess I should have questioned if 
140F for an hour was enough to kill yeast (won't 160F for 15-30 minutes 
pasteurize????).  I don't know how this temperature compares to in-transit 
shipments, but the rapid temp rise of the water may also be a factor in killing
(or shocking) the yeast than a gradual rise to a lower temperature over a 
greater period of time. 
 
Russell, did you ever end up trying this?  Has anyone had any experience with 
this? Gee, if we kill all the yeast, we may solve that embarrassing homebrew - 
flatulence connection! 
 
Kirk Harralson 
Bel Air, Maryland 
 

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