---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Mike Donald, Digest Janitor-in-training
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  pH and Rheinheitsgebot (Jim Busch)
  Water coolers (Russ Brodeur)
  TINIBUW (Pat Anderson)
  couscous / SN Porter yeast ((Alan P. Van Dyke))
  Re: HopDevil (tgaskell at syr.lmco.com)
  O.G. Calc./Pellet or Leaf Hop Finish ((Jim Phillips))
  Re: Improved Wort Chiller (lheavner at tcmail.frco.com)
  RE: Wyeast 3068 and Weizen (AJN)
  grain mills ("Keith Royster")
  Minnesota Brewfest Winners (Steven Piatz)
  RE: ALT BEER ((George De Piro))
  Re: Adelaide Sparkling Ale ((Jeff Renner))
  Hops in fermenter... Problem solved! (Robert_Felberg_at_ASTBMOUND4 at ccmailsmtp.ast.com)
  Soldering Cu onto SS brewpot ("Palmer.John")
  Dateline NBC ---email address ("Don Van Valkenburg")
  Apples and Ale ((Dennis J. Templeton))
  Re: Red Wolf (AJUNDE at ccmail.monsanto.com)
  Dateline NBC (Rob Reed)
  IPA's ("Gregory, Guy J.")
  Heating Mash (galley at hou.sperry-sun.com)
  Calcium ((Bill Giffin))
  Re: Why Wy1056 ?  (Steve Alexander)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:30:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: pH and Rheinheitsgebot

<How do German brewers, who are constrained by the Rheinheitsgebot, lower 
<the pH of their mash and sparge water? 
 
Through natural acidification via lactic acid.  Larger breweries have 
lactic acid fermentation tanks setup, two of em.  The liquid from this 
is quite acidic and a very unique taste!  Others employ malt that liberates 
lactic acid into the mash, saurmalz.  Addition of straight acid is not 
allowed by the Rheinheitsgebot.  A very effective method and important 
in producing light lagers without harsh mineral bites.  Once you get 
used to the difference it is very easy to taste a commercial micro who 
makes lagers and does not correct for pH, the results are not nearly as 
smooth depending on the water chemistry of the area. 
 
Prost! 
 
Jim Busch 
 
See Victory Brewing at: 
http://www.victorybeer.com/ 

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From: Russ Brodeur <r-brodeur at ds.mc.ti.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 08:53:34 -0400
Subject: Water coolers

Has anyone ever tried using a water chiller to dispense beer from a 
carboy??  Obviously it would be on the flat side, but this might be OK 
for an English-style bitter or other ale.  Also, this would certainly 
require rapid consumption as well since the beer would get quickly 
aerated and oxidized.  I imagine it would be relatively simple to rig up 
a CO2 system to dislace the beer at a couple pounds of pressure rather 
than lettin air glug in, tho. 
 
I'm not actually thinking of trying this.  I don't even have a water 
cooler.  The idea came to me over a water cooler discussion at work "I 
wish the cold side served beer".  Hmm, I suppose it could, but it might 
not be very good. 
 
TTFN 
Russ Brodeur in Franklin, MA 

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From: Pat Anderson <pata at aa.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 00:54:28 -0700
Subject: TINIBUW

Take a look at a little Windoze IBU calculator program I put together called 
TINIBUW.  It is in the program section at the Brewery 
(http://alpha.rollanet.org).  Nothing fancy, but you don't have to fire up 
your recipe formulator and invent a fake recipe just to calculate the IBUs 
of that arcane hopping schedule you have been thinking about...It is based 
on Glenn Tinseth's utilization numbers, and loosely derived from Dave 
Draper's TINIBU for DOS.  Public domain, enjoy! 
- --- 
Pat Anderson <pata at aa.net> 
 

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From: alan at mail.utexas.edu (Alan P. Van Dyke)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 08:07:41 -0500
Subject: couscous / SN Porter yeast

Howdy, 
 
In HBD 2225, Ken Sullivan asked what couscous is & if you could mash it. 
It is a Morroccan pasta.  Making beer from it would be akin to brewing up 
spaghetti ale.  I don't think it'll work. 
 
Which reminds me; way back when, maybe a couple of years ago, someone said 
that they were going to attempt to make a Cap'n Crunch Crunchberry beer. 
What happened? 
 
****** 
 
A few weeks back I asked on the HBD if Sierra Nevada Porter Yeast could be 
cultured.  Since I received no firm response, I went ahead and gave it a 
go.  I did my usual starter method, which has always worked with SN Pale 
Ale, which is microwaving about a 1/4 cup of malt extract in about 12 oz of 
water in a mason jar, boiling it for a couple of minutes, capping it, & 
allowing to cool until room temperature.  I added the yeast & waited, and 
nothing happened.  I was suspicious that perhaps Sierra Nevada had started 
pasteurizing their beers, so I gave them a call and talked to Jennifer. 
Jennifer said that whereas the Pale Ale is Krausened, the Porter isn't, & 
the yeast in the bottle isn't viable.  She did say the yeast in both beers 
is "pretty much the same."  She was also adamant that their beers a not 
pasteurized. 
 
Alan Van Dyke               Austin, TX              alan at mail.utexas.edu 
 
 

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From: tgaskell at syr.lmco.com
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 96 10:11:43 EDT
Subject: Re: HopDevil

HopHeads of the world, unite! 
 
The recent thread on the IPA style and the high praise for HopDevil from 
Victory Brewing, has prompted me to try my hand at a "Classic IPA," not 
an IPA wannabee like Bass.  I have worked out a grist bill, and the hard 
water for me is a given; we sharpen knives by holding them under running 
water.  8^) 
 
My request is for hopping info for a classic IPA. 
- - What sort of IBU number should I shoot for? 
- - What about first wort hopping, does any one have any experience with 
  FWH in an IPA?  Does it sound like a good plan to get the flavor up into 
  the excessive range? 
- - Is dryhopping a requirement, should I use a hopback, or will a good 
  dose of steeped aroma hops do the trick? 
- - Can anyone give a breakdown of of the bittering, flavor and aroma that 
  I should be trying to emulate? 
 
I was planning to use EK Goldings for much of the flavor and aroma profile, 
but am concerned about grassy notes that I have gotten in the past.  Is 
there any way to get the Goldings goodness without the grass?  Or is 
Fuggles the hop of choice? 
 
It sounds as if HopDevil is being nominated for the definitive IPA (I can 
forgive you for using cascades).   Can you provide me with insight, Jim? 
Any trade secrets that Victory is willing to part with?  ;^) 
 
Is anybody is willing to share a successful hopping schedule? 
 
Thanks in advance for your sage advice, and no, I will not be "Dry-Oaking". 
Been there, done that, dumped it. 
 
Cheers, 
 
Tom Gaskell  tgaskell at syr.lmco.com  Hog Heaven Homebrewery  Clayville, NY, USA 

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From: jphillips at ravenet.com (Jim Phillips)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:20:47 -0400
Subject: O.G. Calc./Pellet or Leaf Hop Finish

Extract lurker mode turned off: 
Newsgroup Collective: 
 
I've gleaned every HBD digest (since 8/96), all the postings on r.c.b, all 
nuggets of netwisdom available including the TJOHB Bible but still haven't 
found answers to the following: 
 
Q/1 Re: G.Tinseth's Excel BrewCalc template or for that matter any other 
type of Original Gravity Calculation. 
Taking into account 5 GA boil, grain steepage etc. 
 
What would the Original Gravity points be for LME's like Alexander's, John 
Bull, EDME etc.? FAQ file somewhere? The only Lovibond I recall ever 
seeing was on my 3 pound bag of light DME (3.5). I must be missing 
something because the cans don't seem to indicate any vital info. Although 
I maybe an extract brewer, I find this info vital for final calculations. 
 
Q/2 Re: Hops and the finishing factor. 
In the span of a couple of months since starting this religious 
experience, I have steeped hop bags in the boil, finished with hops for 
their respective 2 to 5 minute window, etc.  Should I be finishing with 
pellets or leaf? If I throw in pellets for the last few minutes of the 
boil, without straining out, than those hops will still be releasing all 
their goodness when cooling down the wort which now increases IBU's. On 
the other hand, the leaf will steep for 2 to 5 minutes and than I can yank 
before cool down. The IBU's will be less. I think both methods will work, 
I guess it depends on what defines hoppiness. Please confirm the obvious. 
 
 
TIA 
- -- 
Blues in a Bottle 
 
Jim 
jphillips at ravenet.com 
Wilmington, DE 

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From: lheavner at tcmail.frco.com
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:25:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Improved Wort Chiller

This is a Mime message, which your current mail reader 
may not understand. Parts of the message will appear as 
text. To process the rest, you will have to use a Mime 
compatible mail reader. Contact your vendor for details. 
 
- --IMA.Boundary.845044711 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
 
 
     >>> From: Jzdial at aol.com 
 
     It seems many folks are as concerned about wort chiller cleaning as I am. 
My solution seems very simple and as such must have some serious drawbacks.    
     Silver solder 10-15 wraps of 1/2 " copper tubing on the outside of my 15 
     gallon stainless brew kettle. Run the tubing dry during the boil. Blast 
cold water around the outside afterwards and have no concerns about copper     
     flavors or gunk in the counterflow chiller. Will silver solder bond 
     correctly to the stainless? Will the cooling rate be significantly slower 
     then with my counterflow chiller? Other concerns? <<< 
 
     1) I don't know if silver solder will work, but how much contact will you 
     be getting between straight sided pot and round tubing? 
 
     2) At least three things will be affecting the cooling rate. 
        i) No flow on the hot side which will result in a boundary layer that 
will inhibit heat transfer. Stirring the kettle contents would help, just      
like moving your immersion cooler around in the pot, but of course you risk    
     HSA. 
        ii) Thermal conductivity - instead of passing heat through the entire 
surface of thin copper tubing, you are now having to pass heat through the     
     pot, then through the solder, and then through the limited copper surface 
     that is in contact with the solder. 
        iii) assuming that your water is cooler than than the room air, you 
could be wasting some of the cooling capacity. This is probably minor and      
     could be eliminated with sufficient insulation around the outside of the 
     whole unit. 
 
I just started doing full boils and cooling with an immersion chiller. If      
you're not into RIMS, immersion seems the way to go. Virtually no muss, no     
fuss, easy to clean and store, easy to sanitize, and I can continue putting    
     my pennies in my kids' piggy banks. 
 
     Cheers, 
 
     Lou Heavner 
     <lheavner at frmail.frco.com> 
- --IMA.Boundary.845044711-- 

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From: AJN <neitzkea at frc.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:55:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Wyeast 3068 and Weizen

>From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) 
 
>     The weird thing is, the batch aerated only at pitching took off like a 
>     banshee, while the "over" aerated batch is plodding along in a pretty 
>     subdued fashion!  The only thing I can attribute this to is that the 
>     second fermenter (the volcanic one) was filled with the second half of 
>     my kettle runnings.  Because I remove hot break by whirlpooling it is 
>     possible that more trub got sucked out into the second fermenter. 
 
Wow, I was just going to post an observation I have on the brews I have done. 
 
Basically, out of the 5 batches I have done, only two I have added hops 
to them (all hopped extract). 
 
The first batch I made (no hops added) did not ever go to high krausen, 
it was fermented at 58F (yes, now I know this was too low, but it *was* 
my first batch). 
 
The second was a Australian (no hops added), OG was 1.036, fermented at 72F 
and it actually made it out the blow out tube, but not tremendous. 
 
The third, and ESB, 2.5 oz (cascades) OG was 1.024, fermented at 70F just 
about blew the top off!  Lost about 2 quarts on that one, the trub in the 
bottom was very large. 
 
The forth was a remake of the second batch, fermented at 68F, a little 
less active. 
 
The one in the fermenter right now is a wheat, about 1 oz of hautauer(sp), 
OG was 1.036, fermenting at 65F, this one has a low krausen (I'm doing 
this one cooler, so I don't loose so much) 
 
Anybody else, relate trub to krausen? 
 
BTW, this wheat is driving me crazy, it is going on the third week of 
fermentation, I wanted to be drinking it by now! :) 
 
_________________________________________________________________________ 
Arnold J. Neitzke                         Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com 
Brighton, Mi 
 

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From: "Keith Royster" <keith.royster at pex.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:55:33 -0500
Subject: grain mills

A recent thread has cropped up about grain mills and most of the 
responses so far have basically said that you can make good beer with 
just about any mill.  While this may very well be true, I would like 
to point out that the end result (good beer) doesn't necessarily 
justify the means.  There have been a few published attempts at 
testing the ease of use and the speed of through-put on many of the 
popular mills.  While I don't remember the final results of the test, 
I do remember that there were significant differences.  My own 
personal experience has been limited to the Glatt and the MaltMill, 
and I can say that the effort required to turn the crank is MUCH less 
for the MaltMill.  The speed of through-put was also vastly better on 
the MaltMill in my experience. My point is not to sell you on the 
MaltMill over the Glatt (Glatt is out of biz anyway), but to simply 
point out that I would rather spend the extra money on a quality mill 
that won't wear me out trying to use it. 
 
On a similar note, another grain mill consideration is hopper size. 
The less frequently I have to refill the hopper, the better (less 
work, less mess).  To this extent I made my own super-duper 
extra-large (and cheap!) hopper for my MaltMill.  I thought I would 
pass on the idea: 
 
    Find or cut a scrap piece of plywood that will cover your 
    existing hopper. Using a hole cutter bit on your power drill 
    (like the one used to cut out doorknob holes) cut a hole in the 
    center of the plywood about 2-1/4" in diameter or larger.  Find a 
    cheap or free plastic carboy (I just payed someone the $7 deposit 
    fee for theirs) and cut the bottom off.  Place the plywood over 
    the hopper and insert the neck of your inverted plastic carboy in 
    the hole.  Whalla! you can now mill between 30 and 40 pounds of 
    grain without ever having to stop and refill!  Excellent for 
    those of you with motorized mills. 
 
Keith Royster - Mooresville, North Carolina 
"An Engineer is someone who measures it with a micrometer, 
marks it with a piece of chalk, and cuts it with an ax!" 
 
mailto:Keith.Royster at pex.net 
http://dezines.com/ at your.service - at your.service 
http://dezines.com/ at your.service/cbm -Carolina BrewMasters club page 
http://dezines.com/ at your.service/RIMS -My RIMS (rated COOL! by the Brewery) 

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From: Steven Piatz <piatz at cray.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:00:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Minnesota Brewfest Winners

MINNESOTA BREWFEST October 6, 1996 WINNERS 
 
BEST OF SHOW - 327 total entries 
English Strong (Extra Special) Bitter, Brian Johnson & David Weiler 
 
English/Scottish Strong Ales, Barley Wine - 29 entries 
1st - Barley Wine, Steve Olson & Bill Clark, Northern Ale Stars 
2nd - Barley Wine, Jay A. Johnsrud, Red River Brewers 
3rd - Barley Wine, Randy Thompson, Headwaters Homebrew Club 
 
Belgian Style Specialty - 26 entries 
1st - Tripel, Joe Formanek, Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots 
2nd - Dubbel, Robert G. Schneider 
3rd - Tripel, Ron Elshaug, Minnesota TimberWorts 
 
Mild and Brown Ale - 22 entries 
1st - American Brown, Tom Peterson & Perry Reinhardt, South Metro Wort Mongers 
2nd - English Brown Ale, Mike Healy 
3rd - American Brown Ale, John Denny, CRAZY 
 
English-style Pale Ale - 19 entries 
1st - IPA, Bruce Benson, Minnesota homeBrewers Association 
2nd - IPA, David A. Harrington 
3rd - IPA, Carl Eidbo, Prairie Homebrew Companions 
 
English Bitter and Scottish Ale - 22 entries 
1st - Strong (Extra Special) Bitter, Brian Johnson & David Weiler 
2nd - Ordinary Bitter, Dennis & Kathy Colliton, Prairie Homebrew Companions 
3rd - Ordinary Bitter, Jim Kickul 
 
Porter - 22 entries 
1st - Peter L. Sanders, Minnesota TimberWorts 
2nd - Bruce Benson, Minnesota homeBrewers Association 
3rd - Ray Taylor, Prairie Homebrew Companions 
 
Stout - 28 entries 
1st - Imperial Stout, James Gebhardt, Prairie Homebrew Companions 
2nd - Classic Irish Dry Stout, Jerry & Debbie Dusich, Cloudy Town Brewers 
3rd - Imperial Stout, Gene Pribula & Jim Gebhardt, Prairie Homebrew Companions 
 
Bock - 22 entries 
1st - Doppelbock, John Denny, CRAZY 
2nd - Traditional Bock, Gary Westman, Prairie Homebrew Companions 
3rd - Traditional Bock, Mickey & Vi Walker, Prairie Homebrew Companions 
 
Pilsener/Munich - 16 entries 
1st - German Pilsener, Mickey & Vi Walker, Prairie Homebrew Companions 
2nd - Schwarzbier, Timothy Curran, Rum River Wort Hogs 
3rd - German Pilsener, Duane Maki, THIRSTY 
 
Vienna/Marzen/Oktoberfest - 20 entries 
1st - Marzen/Oktoberfest, Dan La Vigne 
2nd - Marzen/Oktoberfest, Ray Taylor, Prairie Homebrew Companions 
3rd - Marzen/Oktoberfest, Timothy Curran, Rum River Wort Hogs 
 
German-style Ale - 18 entries 
1st - Kolsch, Carl Eidbo, Prairie Homebrew Companions 
2nd - Altbier, Neil Schlegel, Minnesota homeBrewers Association 
3rd - Kolsch, Richard & Kristine Bucholtz, Virtual Village Homebrew Society 
  
German-style Wheat Beer - 20 entries 
1st - Dunkleweizen, John Denny, CRAZY 
2nd - Weizen, Matt Musial, Prairie Homebrew Companions 
3rd - Weizen, John Denny, CRAZY 
 
Fruit, Herb and Vegetable Beer - 25 entries 
1st - Fruit Beer, Raspberry Stout, Peter Kennedy 
2nd - Fruit Beer, Peach, Michael Cripe 
3rd - Fruit Beer, Apricot, Neil Gudmestadt, Prairie Homebrew Companions 
 
American-style Beer - 38 entries 
1st - Pale Ale, Rob Hunter & Bob Nelson, Minnesota homeBrewers Association 
2nd - Pale Ale, Carl Eidbo, Prairie Homebrew Companions 
3rd - Pale Ale, Wayne Theuer, Minnesota TimberWorts 
 
Steve Piatz 
 

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From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:58:18 -0700
Subject: RE: ALT BEER

     Jeff asked about what beers define Alt beer.  In this country (USA), 
     I'm not really sure.  I've had Widmer's alt, and thought it was good, 
     until I had some Dusseldorf Alts (Uerige, and another beginning with 
     "S"- sorry, my brain has gone numb...). 
 
     The alts I had from Dusseldorf are quite bitter (in fact, pretty damn 
     bitter), but with minimal hop flavor and no hop aroma.  They are 
     pretty dark (darker than amber, but not quite a Dunkle), and the malt 
     flavors can be kind of toasty and/or kind of caramel.  The hop 
     bitterness is definitely the main flavor in these beers. 
 
     The only other alts I can think of that you can get here are Harpoon 
     and Pinkus.  Neither are really true to the style.  The Harpoon is OK, 
     but the bitterness is just not high enough, and the caramel is too 
     much, and I've had some bottles that tasted kind of oxidized! 
 
     The Pinkus (from Germany, but not Dusseldorf) is not really an Alt at 
     all. 
 
     I think that it would be tough to find a true alt in this country 
     because it is an extreme beer, and therefore taboo to marketing 
     people. 
 
     Sorry I can't be more helpful!  If anyone has found a good alt in the 
     USA, please chime in! 
 
     Have fun! 
 
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY) 

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From: nerenner at umich.edu (Jeff Renner)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 11:10:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Adelaide Sparkling Ale

In HBD 2226, Marshall Muller <Marshall.Muller at dsto.defence.gov.au> wrote 
about Cooper's Sparkling Ale: 
 
>I questioned by local home brew store about this 
>and he said that the yeast used for bottle conditioning is not the same 
>as that used for fermentation.  He said they pasturise to kill of the 
>yeast after fermenation and added different yeast for bottling. 
 
This is certainly not what I have been led to believe, but I'm 12,000 miles 
away from the source.  How about calling or visiting the brewery and 
finding out, then reporting back to use all? 
 
BTW, YeastLab Australian Ale Yeast A01 originated from a bottle some Aussie 
friends of mine hand carried back from Oz a few years ago.  Dan McConnell 
of YeastLab and Yeast Culture Kit Co. cultured it from the dregs after we 
enjoyed the freshest Sparkling Ale in the states.  It is a good performer 
and, I believe, a reasonably popular seller for them. 
 
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu 
 
 

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From: Robert_Felberg_at_ASTBMOUND4 at ccmailsmtp.ast.com
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 96 11:16:33 PST
Subject: Hops in fermenter... Problem solved!

     Thanks to all of you who replied to my question on hops in the bottom 
     of my carboy. There were several responses so I'll thank all if you 
     here. I got my favorite answer... Don't worry! 
 
     One addition that may help out newbies when it comes to cooling the 
     wort. I plan on making an immersion chiller for my next batch but I 
     found an alternative for now... 
 
     The good old kitchen sink does a great job. I partially plugged the 
     drain with a plastic scrubby thing and set a little rack used for 
     steaming on top of the drain so the pot was level. With the drain 
     partially blocked, I could get a steady stream of water running around 
     my pot, adjusting to keep the water level steady (only overflowed 
     once). Fifteen minutes from a full boil, the temp was down to 90. I 
     was pleasantly surprised. So, as long as you have a sink big enough 
     for your pot. There you go! 
 
     Thanks All, 
 
     Rob Felberg / Fort Worth, TX 
 
     P.S. How many folks have been to Breckenridge Brewery in Dalls? I like 
     it a lot myself (Their George Forman is my favorite: Stout and 
     Avalanche 50/50 mix.). Any expert opinions? 
 

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From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Date: 11 Oct 1996 09:15:43 U
Subject: Soldering Cu onto SS brewpot

Rick writes: 
 
>Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 18:42:28 -0400 
 
>Subject: Improved wort chiller hopefully. 
 
>Rick Dial / aa8jz 
>N. Muskegon, Mi. 
 
>I have been brewing for less then a year. I have been vicariously brewing 
>here on the HBD for 
>about a month. It seems many folks are as concerned about wort chiller 
>cleaning as I am. 
>My solution seems very simple and as such must have some serious drawbacks. 
>Silver solder 10-15 wraps of 1/2 " copper tubing on the outside of my 15 
>gallon stainless brew 
>kettle. Run the tubing dry during the boil. Blast cold water around the 
>outside afterwards and 
>have no concerns about copper flavors or gunk in the counterflow chiller. 
>Will silver solder bond correctly to the stainless? 
>Will the cooling rate be significantly slower then with my counterflow 
>chiller? 
>Other concerns? 
>tnx 
 
There are two problems with this good idea. 
1. The soldering of Copper onto Stainless works with the right liquid flux, but
you are going to need to apply A LOT of Heat to get a good joint. So much that 
you will probably oxidize the hell out of the copper in spite of the flux. Can 
be done, but very difficult to achieve good results. 
2. The cooling area ratio to wort volume is not very good. Nominally this would
seem to be the same situation as immersion in a cold water bath, but rather 
than
having the water covering the entire outside of the pot, it covering discrete 
areas. The water bath method tends to become impractical once you go to full 5 
gal boils unless you have a swimming pool or snowbank handy. 
 
This is a good idea really but the scope of it would need to be increased to 
become a full jacket and attaching that much copper tubing to the Stainless is 
best done be Furnace Brazing where you heat the entire puppy at one time. 
 
John J. Palmer - Metallurgist for MDA-ISS M&P 
johnj at primenet.com  Huntington Beach, California 
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy - www.primenet.com/~johnj/ 

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From: "Don Van Valkenburg" <DONVANV at msn.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 96 16:47:28 UT
Subject: Dateline NBC ---email address

If you do not like, or you feel that the upcoming story on Micro's is 
inaccurate, you can let them know at: 
Dateline at NBC.com 
or through their web site: 
WWW.NBC.com/mail.html 

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From: djt2 at po.cwru.edu (Dennis J. Templeton)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:19:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Apples and Ale

The recent thread on "Applejack Lager" prompts me to report on a couple of 
batches that I've made over the last two years. I thought the term for this 
mix was "cyser" and have never been contradicted, but I could be using the 
term wrong. 
 
Both times I've brewed this mix have been very similar. I got 5 gallons of 
fresh pressed cider, for which the apple mix used was unclear, but was 
pretty tart. I lightly sulfited the juice immediately with about half the 
recommended dose (for wine) of Campden tablets for two days. In the 
meantime, I made a very pale ale at 5 gallons using Belgian pilsner malt at 
an OG of about 1.5 and used about double my normal hop dose (Cascade) just 
at cooling time for the aroma. I pitched a healthy starter of a Chico Ale 
yeast (I think this is the same as Wyyeast 1056) and fermented in a 15 
gallon primary for two days. At the peak of fermentation I added the 
sulfited apple juice (I was afraid that the sulfite might slow down the 
fermentation, but I've never noticed this happening; the fermentation 
continues unchecked). There is a lot of debris carried to the top of the 
krausen. 
 
I have always kegged and force carbonated this brew, but since it requires 
a lot of aging it might be a better candidate for bottling. The color is 
extremely pale, and there is no head. I added a pound of wheat the second 
time to give a better head, but that didn't work. The aroma is apples, and 
I think more hops for bittering would help.  The result is very dry; a less 
attenuative yeast might fit some palates. It is crystal clear. 
 
Aging is crucial here; the first batch was almost undrinkable for 3 months, 
and I had two kegs occupied with this stuff for a long time. The second 
batch seemd to peak around 6 months (then it was gone!). Friends who like 
my ales were unimpressed, but the spouse and I like it a lot and it has 
become a seasonal (winter) favorite. Some folks might like spices in this 
stuff (?cardamon?) but this year I'm just going to try some more hops. I 
wish I could get a real head on it, since it looks a lot like yellowish 
champagne, and I'd like to accentuate the "Ale" character. BTW, I've made a 
couple of straight ciders too, and the cyser 50:50 mix was much easier to 
get a good result with. 
 
Just a couple of data points... 
 
 
Dennis 
 
 

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From: AJUNDE at ccmail.monsanto.com
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 12:30:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Red Wolf

     Greg King Wrote: 
 
>The bulk of the article (maybe 85% of it) describes the efforts of the A-B 
>team to come up with the packaging (i.e. what do the labels look like) and a 
>marketing strategy for the product.  In the small section of the article that 
>describes the actual product development, the main point is that the barley 
>needs to be roasted in just the right way to get that red color. 
 
>Interesting, huh? 
 
 
No, not really.. Same thing with their "new original beers" like the munchner  
and black and tan. All they had was some old lable pictures. Marketing did the 
rest. 
 
While I'm on the topic, can somebody tell me the *real* relationship between 
Red
Hook and AB? 
 
 
|              Allen Underdown - ajunde at ccmail.monsanto.com                 | 
|       ITSS WAN Group - Monsanto World Headquarters - St. Louis, MO        | 
|             Homebrewing in the Shadow of the Mighty AB, the               | 
|           inventors of the Clidesdale Water Filtration System             | 

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From: Rob Reed <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 12:30:51 -0400 (CDT)
Subject: Dateline NBC

Dave writes: 
 
> Jeff in Casper, Wyoming asked about the Dateline NBC story: 
> 
> The ad blurb goes something like "microbrews are really popular these days, 
> but before you drink them you should see our story"  (seriously 
> paraphrased) 
> 
> My bet is it will be focused on the fake micros from budmilloors et al., 
> but we'll see.  The ad gives no details about the story. 
 
I'm sure it will be a very "informative" broadcast. 
 
Aren't these the same guys who did the hatchet job on the '70s vintage 
GM full size truck? As I remember, the outfit that did the testing 
attached a solid rocket motor to the outside of the gas tank to insure 
that a fire started in the event of leakage. Very "scientific". 
 
I think if they would have placed the ignitor inside gas tank, they 
would have had more consistent ignition in their "experiment" 
 
Cheers, 
 
Rob Reed 

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From: "Gregory, Guy J." <GGRE461 at ecy.wa.gov>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 96 10:24:00 PDT
Subject: IPA's

 
re: the recent IPA thread. 
 
OK, so Bass isn't actually an IPA, but I like it.  I have driven, in the 
late 70's or early 80's, about 60 miles to have one from a tap, and pay the 
princely sum of 2.50 per pint at the time for the pleasure.... 
 
Not being a beer judge, how about Ballard Bitter?  It's hoppy, a pleasant 
color, and mighty good.  Also, on my personal regional bias, I find Grant's 
IPA dandy as well.  How do these beers stack up to the standard? 
 
GuyG4 at aol.com 
Guy Gregory 
Lightning Ck. Home Brewing 

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From: galley at hou.sperry-sun.com
Date: 
Subject: Heating Mash

 
    =20 
     Chas Capwell said: 
    =20 
          >Also, I've been musing on this for a few weeks now following= 
=20 
          >some posts a couple of weeks ago about circulating heated wa= 
ter=20 
          >through a copper coil in the mash to control the temp and th= 
ink=20 
          >that this is the way I'm gonna go with it. I like this idea,= 
 a=20 
          >lot. It seems to solve the potential problems of HSA, scorch= 
ed=20 
          >wort, etc, rather nicely. 
     =20 
    =20 
     I, too, plan to heat the mash with hot water circulating through=20 
     copper tubes in the mash.  I'm interested in the collective's=20 
     thoughts, flames, ideas, whatever.  I personally would prefer=20 
     circulating hot water to hot wort for several reasons, including t= 
he=20 
     points Chas makes.  The system would be simple to clean and operat= 
e,=20 
     cheaper than a RIMS, and relatively easy to automate. 
    =20 
     I'm thinking of a three tier system (keep in mind that none of thi= 
s is=20 
     designed, built, or bought - just dreamed of).  I plan to heat the= 
=20 
     water in my sparge vessel to near boiling and gravity feed through= 
 a=20 
     coil in the mash/lauter tun at a rate sufficient to create turbule= 
nt=20 
     flow.  This water will return to my brew kettle on the lowest tier= 
=20 
     (gravity again) where it will be reheated to no more than the heat= 
=20 
     capacity of the pump (+/-190=F8F). I will then pump it back up to = 
the=20 
     sparge vessel, where it will be further heated.  The idea is to ke= 
ep=20 
     the temperature of the water as high as possible while circulating= 
 it.=20 
     With two burners running full blast and 15-20 gallons of water on = 
the=20 
     move, I should be able to keep the temp. up there and pump a lot o= 
f=20 
     heat into the mash. 
    =20 
     The heat transfer may not be that great, but I really don't know. = 
 My=20 
     (limited) understanding is that the efficiency increases about an=20 
     order of magnitude when both liquids are in turbulent flow (the ma= 
sh=20 
     is a essentially a slurry, and should behave like a liquid in this= 
=20 
     respect?).  Since the mash will be essentially still, or have lami= 
nar=20 
     flow at best, the heat transfer will not be that great.  Stirring = 
of=20 
     the mash will definitely be required. 
    =20 
     Possible alternative to stirring the mash:  I got this idea from s= 
ome=20 
     long lost post to HBD (author and date unknown, but as I remember = 
he=20 
     was Australian).  I'm thinking about the possibility of using a sm= 
all=20 
     hand made electric pump to circulate the wort within the mash/laut= 
er=20 
     tun.  The idea is to use a small electric motor mounted at the top= 
 of=20 
     a tube that connects through the mash to the false bottom.  Attach= 
ed=20 
     to the motor shaft, and below the fluid level inside the tube, wou= 
ld=20 
     be an impeller.  When running, the "pump" would draw wort from bel= 
ow=20 
     the false bottom and raise it up to a level that would allow it to= 
=20 
     flow through holes in the tube into a manifold on top of the grain= 
=20 
     bed.  Sorry, I am too patience impaired to even attempt ascii art. 
    =20 
     Post mash-out I would add cool brew water to the sparge vessel to = 
get=20 
     down to sparge temperature. 
    =20 
     Again, your input is both welcome and needed.  TIA 
    =20 
     Tom 
    =20 
 

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From: bill-giffin at juno.com (Bill Giffin)
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:34:01 cst
Subject: Calcium

Good afternoon all, 
 
How much calcium is enough?  George Fix states that 50-100 mg/l is about 
right. 
 
I know that calcium helps in the mashing process, provide a required 
nutrient to yeast and is helpful in the flocculation of the yeast at the 
end of fermentation.  How much is required to meet all these 
requirements? 
 
Pilsen water has about 7 mg/l of calcium and yet they seem to manage to 
make a half decent beer. ;-).  Is 7 mg/l enough?  Seems to me that it 
must be or Czech pils couldn't be made. 
 
Bill 

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From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 14:45:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Why Wy1056 ? 

 
Scott Murman says ... 
 
>I think you've answered your own question on why 1056 is so popular. 
No, perhaps I didn't describe the problem in enough detail. 
 
>It's clean and robust. 
 
I guess 'robust' must describe the yeast's growth pattern, certainly 
not its flavor. Bland, neutral, flavorless, dull, insipid are the 
terms I'd use for flavor. Frankly I don't choose yeast based on modest 
difficulty in handling.  My choice is based on contributed flavor 
(which may, of course, be related to fermentation properties). 
 
>I usually use it for porters, which I add 
>all kinds of adjuncts to, and don't want to mask the flavor and/or 
>aroma with the yeast. 
 
This is a good example of when the use of Wy1056 is justified - 
precisely when you don't want a yeast flavor contribution. 
 
>It also seems to ferment well over a wide 
>temperature range, and can also handle fairly high gravity brews. 
 
I can get these properties in several yeasts. 
 
I agree Wy1056 has a place, but I would choose this yeast for perhaps 
5% or 10% of brews at most.  Instead from HBD posts I would guess it's 
probably the MOST popular ale yeast for HBers, and widely used in 
hoppy ales where a flavor balance is usually desireable. 
 
My question wasn't 'why is wy1056 used?', it's "why is it so very 
popular?". 
 
Steve Alexander 
 

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