---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Mike Donald, Digest Janitor-in-training
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Re: water treatment (Regan Pallandi)
  brewing small batches (Anton Schoenbacher)
  How to remove bungs from used 5L mini kegs ((Robert Marshall))
  Bergamots - vermin! ((John (The Coyote) Wyllie))
  C-c-c-c-old fermentation finally finishes! (slick)
  brewing MBAs (bob rogers)
  re: Hard Cider ((Dick Dunn))
  Dateline et. al. (m.bryson2 at genie.com)
  Maris Otter, IPAs (Michael Newman)
  Bragget; bragot (Kathy Booth )
  RE:  Cooling wort ((George De Piro))
  RE: DATELINE..... (Joe Rolfe)
  re: Wild Hops Recap ((Ken Jucks, ph # 617-496-7580))
  PH for extract (Michael Mahler)
  Redhook/Dateline /Xmas spices ("Starke jr, Frederick A")
  Converting the swilling infidel ((Cory Chadwell))
  Dateline / Cool Immersion Chiller / Water for Bohemian Plz (KennyEddy at aol.com)
  Dateline ("Thomas K. Simacek")
  Wedding Bash/Bash, Bash, Bash! (Bill Rust)
  Sherry Yeast (Geza T Szenes/IPL)
  More on calcium ((Bill Giffin))

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Regan Pallandi <reganp at iris.bio.uts.EDU.AU>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:50:06 +1200 (EST)
Subject: Re: water treatment

G'day all - just a couple of quick questions about salts and acids. 
First, I have found a jar of dried CaCl2 (not a hydrated form) on our lab 
shelves. It is stable in air (ie doesn't turn to slush when exposed to 
air) and has a MW of 111. Is there any reason not to use it to add Ca to 
brewing water? Second, can nitric acid be used to acidify mash/sparge 
water? Or is there some particularly hideous taste associated with it? 
 
Cheers, Regan in Sydney 
 
 
 
 
 

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From: Anton Schoenbacher <aschoenb at eecs.wsu.edu>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 96 19:34:04 PDT
Subject: brewing small batches

I have finally come to my senses.  Up until I discovered 
this list I was living in the dark, I can see now. 
 
I have been brewing for about two years now, and up until 
about a two weeks ago I never would have considered brewing 
all-grain.  I'm not sure what I was thinking, why would anyone 
want to go through all that work ?  Hmmm, I think I have caught 
the bug.  About a week ago I did my first partial mash and 
I am NEVER going to do it again. Why you ask, because I am 
going to brew all grain from now on.  I tasted my partial 
brew after about 8 days of fermenting and it actually tasted 
like beer instead of homebrew, I amazed myself.  Thanks to 
everybody who gave me info and helped me get my courage 
up, I really appreciate it. 
 
I have some questions ... 
 
I think I want to brew smaller batches so I can do it 
more often (like 2-3 gallons) any body have advice pertaining 
to this, anybody like brewing small instead of large or vice 
versa, let meknow. 
 
Whats the smallest batch anybody has done ? 
 
- -- 
*****Anton Schoenbacher*****aschoenb at eecs.wsu.edu***** 

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From: robertjm at hooked.net (Robert Marshall)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 02:37:28 GMT
Subject: How to remove bungs from used 5L mini kegs

We have purchased  some of the 5L mini kegs, as well as one which came 
prefilled. 
 
My question is this: 
 
How does one remove one of those bungs from the top of the keg after 
it is emptied? It seems like I could used pliers but I don't want to 
damage the keg. Or, I could cut it off, but I don't want to do that if 
the bungs are reusable. 
 
Anyone have any ideas? 
 
later, 
 
 
Robert Marshall 
robertjm at hooked.net 
 
homepage: http://www.hooked.net/users/robertjm 
 
- ---------------------------------------------- 
"In Belgium, the magistrate has the dignity of a prince but by Bacchus, it is 
true that the brewer is king."
 
          Emile Verhaeren (1855-1916) 
          Flemish writer 
- ----------------------------------------------- 
 

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From: ccoyote at sunrem.com (John (The Coyote) Wyllie)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 20:47:50 -0600
Subject: Bergamots - vermin!

Ok- so I'm a little outdated, but I couldn't pass this up... 
 
Dan Goodale asks: 
 
> One of my favorite teas is Earl Grey (if it's 
>good enough for CPT Picard.......) and I have got it 
>in my mind to brew something with that flavor. 
 
>2.  Will oil just sit on to in the fermenter? (I didn't 
>notice any oil slick on top of my tea) 
> 
>3.  Found the oil in a catalog, but was listed as 
>"aroma therapy grade."  Is this for external use 
>only? 
 
>6.  What is a bergamot anyway; some animal? 
> 
 
 
I love this!  You betcha!  You've heard of Marmots I spose.  Well, 
Bergamots have longer fur and less marm, more burr- hence the longer fur. 
They are truly moutainous creatures, hence the name BERG- german for 
mountain.  BTW They LOVE beer! Being german by origin.  They were brought 
to america in the early 1700s when they found their way to the bottom of 
casks of fest beers and passed out, when dormant for a time, and re-emerged 
once arriving in america.  They enjoyed the american- preprohibition ales 
so much that they stayed, found the mountains, and learned about moonshine. 
You will occasionally hear their shrill whistles as they duck off into the 
rocks on hillsides, they have also been known to frequent mountain lodges 
and raid ski resorts in the off season stealing the next seasons beer 
supply and hoarding it in their dens for later consumption.  They are often 
mistaken for marmots, but truly they are bergamots we see most of the time! 
 
 
Ok- reality check. The other  bergamot is also known as Bee balm, a 
perennial flower/herb.  The flowers come in various shades of red/purple 
and look much like Dr Suess characters- mopheads if you will. They are a 
favorite of butterflies, hummingbirds and birds.  (I'd have to check my 
references, but I seem to remember that...) they are known to have 
anasthetic qualities, or antiseptic.  I'm pretty sure they fall into the 
calming/soothing category of herbal medicines, hence Picards desire for a 
relaxing cup of tea.  Both the flowers and leaves can be used in salads. 
 
*       Ok- Reference check:  "The New Age Herbalist" Richard Mabey sez: 
'Bergamot is named becuz of its fragrance, which resembles the aroma of 
bergamot orange....  The oil is sometimes used in perfumery...but should 
not be confused with the oil of the similarly smelling bergamot orange- an 
important aroma therapy oil and ingredient of /EARL GREY TEA/. Because of 
its distinctive fragrance and because of the nectar its flowers secrete it 
is a popular flower with bees, hence its popular name of bee balm.' 
 
As for that oil, I would definitely NOT use it for brewing, unless  you 
have an ingredient list.  Aroma oils are extracts of fragrances from 
certain plants that can contain who knows what else.  The oils used are 
intended for potpourri or external use, or bathtubs, or perfume, NOT for 
consumption.  They should say so on the label.  There are oil/extracts 
which are designed to be added to foods, but they should have a clear 
identification as being intended for ingestion. 
Aroma oils are generally NOT in that category. 
 
 
You could make your own oil extract from a plant using a known oil like 
vegetable oil, or olive oil, but still- its not good for brewing.  Oils 
interfere with head retention, and are not miscible with the aqueous 
solution of beer.  An alcohol extract would be a better way to go, just 
dont use rubbing alcohol!  Vodka, or grain alcohol would be your best 
choice.  Oil contribution is a frustrating factor in certain brews- nuts, 
chocolate as examples.  But enough crystal and you can still get good head. 
 
 
A perhaps better alternative than using the tea bags themselves (the ratio 
of bergamot fur, I mean flavor, to tea tannin would probably not be 
favorable) would be to make a tea from the plant itself.  if you have a 
health food store in town you might look for bergamot, bee balm dried.  Or 
plant some and grow it yourself.  Its a pretty flower, and as mentioned 
attracts lots of garden friendly creatures.  I could probably send you some 
of mine when I cut it back (pretty soon as frosts are on their way!).  Youd 
either want to toss it in the boil like hops, or make an infusion, or tea 
and add that to the carboy after vigourous primary fermentation is done (if 
its the aroma you want) or at bottling/keggin/casking time. 
 
Well- with the actual reference in hand I see that bee balm is more of an 
imitation of the actual plant, to which I have no reference (sorry) so you 
can imitate the aroma with bee balm, or you can go for the actual thing 
through the Earls grey. If you can find a source of bergamot orange itself 
you might be better off.  It originates from the Oswega District near lake 
Ontario.  It was used by the Oswega Indians, so if you know any, they might 
be of help.  But really, if you have access to a store which sells natural 
tea components (leaves) you might give them a try.  (remember that store I 
referred to that roasts coffee and happens to sell beer supplies, they sell 
tea components too- I'll check with them....) 
 
As for style- medium to light in color, low hopping (at least low on the 
finishing hops), and you'd probably want to avoid too heavy of aroma malts 
also. Certainly wouldnt want to go for a dark stout. Would certainly 
obscure the herb. 
 
                GOOD LUCK, LET US KNOW HOW IT WORKS OUT! 
 
 
- --------------------------------------------------------------- 
///  John-    The Cosmic Coyote   -Wyllie\\\ ccoyote at sunrem.com 
'As long as he's got 8 fingers and toes, he's ok by me!' H.J.S. 
- --------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
 

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From: slick <slick at no.inhale.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 19:53:25 -0700
Subject: C-c-c-c-old fermentation finally finishes!

Well, as usual, I relaxed, didn't worry, and drank homebrew ;^) My Dopplebock 
turned out fantastic -- 2 weeks in the primary
at 40 degrees F, then two weeks in the secondary  at  40F, then 2 more weeks 
lagering at 30F (!) after which I bottled, and am
now in the process of conditioning. The leftover beer (~4-5oz) tasted very 
malty, ('prolly due to the Wyeast Bohemian yeast)
with good hop bitterness (~22 IBU's), and no perceptible hop flavor or aroma. 
Now for something completely the same -- I just
acquired a corny keg system, and when I first powered (sic) it up, only got a 
hair above 500# on a 5# bottle. I force
carbonated some cream soda for the kids as a test, and now after two days am 
down to almost no CO2. There are no leaks, even
under water, and yet I don't see how I could get so little CO2 from a 5# bottle
which *theoretically* should have well over
1500# of pressure on a full cylinder. Perhaps it was filled on a hot day, and 
being in my lagering chest (a converted 16 cu.
ft. Hotpoint fridge) at 40F, the net results are to be expected...any ideas? 
TTYAL, God Bless, ILBCNU!
 
         The Doctor 
    mjbrown at teleport.com 

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From: bob rogers <bob at carol.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 23:22:35 -0400
Subject: brewing MBAs

>ake good beer.  What I find suprising is that it took so long for the MBA's 
>that run these outfits to realize that good beer is good, and people will 
>drink it.  I look forward to Bud labeling each beer to it's specific brewery 
>of origin as well, not just a litany of each of their breweries on the 
>label.  Hopefully, one day, they will produce vast quantities of beer that 
>tastes good.  Wow. 
> 
>BTW, Bud's date of birth advertising is kinda catchy, isn't it?  It ain't 
>enough to make me buy one, though. 
> 
>cheers 
>GuyG4 at aol.com 
>Guy Gregory 
 
hey! i resemble that remark... three points: 
 
1) not all MBAs like bad beer. 
2) the "great beer revival" began with american breweries brewing better beer. 
3) the mega breweries have handled the situation quite well. compare them to 
the automobile giants, the airline giants, the copier giant, the computer 
giant, etc. the mega-brewers have responded market pressures _before_ an 
impact on bottom line! that is a major acomplishment for one company in an 
oligopily, let alone four of four. 
 
here's a question: is it possible to produce great beer in a large brewery? 
if it is, then i think we can expect mega-brewers to brew to the market. as 
long as A-B 45% of the domestic market (91MM Bbl), why would they want to 
change? otoh, big brewers have shown that if there are people willing to pay 
for better ingredients, (instead of better advertising), then they will be 
willing to produce better beer. 
 
What does this have to do with homebrewing? spread your homebrew far and 
wide! teach friends and others what great beer tastes like. eventually, 
there will be great commercial brew in the grocery store for me to enjoy 
when i'ts 110 degrees in the shade and i can't brew! 
 
bob: brewing in the heart of the bible belt 
MBA 91 university of tennessee (go vols!) 
finalist: 1991 SDSU invitational business plan competition: 
          tennessee mountain brewing company 
bob rogers   bob at carol.net 
 

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From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: 14 Oct 96 22:17:08 MDT (Mon)
Subject: re: Hard Cider

FelixTKatt at gnn.com (Mark Andrizzi) writes: 
> I know that this is a brewing digest and that I am asking about 
> cider but I figured that this is the best forum for just such a 
> question (at least for my purposes). 
 
(There is a digest for cider discussions.  Info or subscribe requests 
go to cider-request@ talisman.com.  Now is the season.) 
 
> ...I got a wild hair to make hard cider this fall (for the 
> first time) and was wondering as to a "best recipe" that a fellow 
> homebrewer may have used in the past... 
 
Cider "recipes" don't fit quite the same mold as beer recipes do.  The 
essential cider recipe for 5 gallons goes something like this: 
 Ingredients: 
  5 gallons apple juice 
 Procedure: 
  Let it ferment.  Rack when rapid fermentation subsides; 
  rack again when it starts to clear.  Bottle. 
OK, that may be a bit too simple, although it's how a lot of good commer- 
cial cider-makers do it. 
 
The key to cider is the apples.  You cannot make a really good cider with 
mediocre apples.  You need at least some fair amount of tart apples to get 
the total acidity up, and you need some bitter apples to get tannin.  You 
can patch around lack of these by adding acid and tannin, but it's a hack 
at best.  Better to get tannin by adding some fraction of crabapples, which 
will also add acid, and better to get the acidity up by going for sharp 
apples in the blend. 
 
You need to un-learn a brewing habit or two.  Cider benefits from slow 
fermentation...the business of "a large vigorous starter" as you use for 
beer will result in a cider that ferments out so dry and harsh, it'll leave 
tooth-prints on the outside of your lips...or it will strip out the char- 
acter of the apples to the point that you end up with a minimalist apple 
soda.  Go for a cool fermentation, and try not to push it.  If you want to 
add yeast, look for a low-alcohol ale yeast. 
 
Many cider makers don't add yeast at all; they use the natural yeasts on 
the apples.  The reason for this is that those yeasts are weak relative to 
commercial strains; they ferment slowly and quit while there's a bit of 
residual sugar.  It takes some care to ferment this way and not end up 
with a whole lot of cider vinegar, but it's worth the result. 
 
Which reminds me...DO NOT attempt to make hard cider from juice which has 
any added preservative--sorbate or such.  Look at the label.  If it's got 
preservatives, forget it.  If there's no label, ask.  If you don't get a 
sound "absolutely no preservatives" answer, forget it. 
- --- 
Dick Dunn         rcd at talisman.com         Boulder County, Colorado  USA 

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From: m.bryson2 at genie.com
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 96 03:45:00 GMT 
Subject: Dateline et. al.

   It's hard for me to believe that Dateline still calls itself a news 
program since the truck/rocket fiasco. Lo and behold, they were uncovering a 
horrible scam being pulled on the unsuspecting public. Their tone of voice 
seemed to indicate a couple of things: 
 
1) We are so gullible and stupid that the only reason we buy "microbrews" is 
because we don't know the horrible truth about whose fermenting vessels tehy 
sit in. If we knew, we would go right back to drinking Budweiser. Shudder. 
 
2) We should thank our lucky stars that Dateline is on our side. 
 
   The only problem with these ideas is that most people that I know are 
aware that Samuel Adams contracts brewing time from A-B. And that a lot of 
breweries do it. The beers also tend to be much higher in quality than teh 
stuff being brewed by, say, A-B. I also think that tehy could have followed 
up their 1st question to A-B about fearing competition. It was unfortunate 
that the "micro" representative taht they talked to was Jim Koch. My guess 
is that some of the other interviewees( say, good old Wicked Pete) did not 
allow them to portray A-B as such a victim of those mean old micorbrewers, 
and thus ended up on the cutting room floor. 
 
   Look, I don't disagree that point of origin on a bottle is a bad thing, 
but I don't remember the beer brewed in WIlliamsburg, VA listing that city 
as its origin for A-B products. 
 
  Somehow I started/finished in rant mode on this subject. I tjust ticked me 
off at the extraordinarily biased reporting. OF course, this was Dateline, 
so I don't know what I woudl expect. 
 
   Sorry for the bandwidth venting. Back to brewing. 
 
        Matthew W. Bryson 

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From: Michael Newman <100711.2111 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 15 Oct 96 07:22:46 EDT
Subject: Maris Otter, IPAs

Expat. American Andy Anderson says British IPAs are useless. As a British beer 
drinker of many years I have to agree. The descriptor IPA is used without any 
regard for its historical meaning and truthfully I suspect most drinkers are 
unaware what the term means anyway. In my opinion if you want to sample the 
best
of British bitter beers stick to the ordinary bitter (ie OG 1038-44ish). They 
tend to be less sweet and hoppier and you don't get hopelessly drunk as 
quickly!. There are of course many exceptions to this rule and if your in the 
Wiltshire are we can go on a pub crawl to find what they are. 
 
Brian Krause asks about Maris Otter Pale Malt. (Only one r). Maris Otter is a 
breed of barley introduced in the 1960s for brewing purposes. At  that time it 
was the new wonder barley but of course since then new and easier to grow (ie 
cheaper) barleys have appeared. Many brewers, especially microbrewers, still 
consider it the best and many of the larger companies still use a proportion of
it in their grist make up. I think you will find a web page about Maris 
Otter(http://breworld.com/malt/maris/html) at BreWorld (full of lots of useful 
information). It is the malt that I use and I am sure that it will be 
successful
in any infusion mashed brew. Of course you may be able to find a more suitable 
malt for a Scotch ale from one of the Scottish maltings but I can't help you 
there. 
 
MICHAEL NEWMAN 
 

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From: Kathy Booth <kbooth at waverly.k12.mi.us>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 07:37:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Bragget; bragot

According to the AOB's "Dictionary of Beer and Brewing" 
 
p 30;  braga. 1. A mild mead made in Russia in the Middle Ages. 2.Romanian 
millet beer. 
 
bragget. Honey-sweetened spiced ale or a mix of meade and ale. Etym: 
Because it was drunk ceremoniously on Bragget Sunday, the fourth Sunday in 
Lent in 19th century England. 
 
bragot.  An ancient Welsh drink consisting of beer, honey, cinnamon and 
"galingale".  It also was known as heroe drink. 
 
I'm still open to suggestions about the historic name for cider and ale. 
Anybody know Charlie P's email so we can ask him about his source for the 
mead book? 
 
Cheers, jim booth, lansing, mi  correct email address 
kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us  (*&%$# at  server address is still wrong) 
 

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From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 08:39:20 -0700
Subject: RE:  Cooling wort

     Hi! 
 
     Phil Wilcox asks about cooling his partial-boil batch.  He wants to 
     know if it is faster to let the 2.5 gallons of hot wort cool, then add 
     it to the cold water, or if he should add the hot wort to the cold 
     water and cool the entire thing. 
 
     This just happened to be a question on a physics exam I had as a 
     freshman in college (except the liquid was coffee, not wort.  The 
     Prof. had no imagination!). 
 
     It's faster to cool the 2.5 gallons of hot wort, then add it to the 
     cold water.  The greater the temperature difference between the wort 
     and the cooling media, the faster the temperature change will be. 
 
     Another reason to add the cooled wort to the water, rather than adding 
     hot wort to the water, is to avoid Hot Side Aeration (HSA).  For 
     example, adding 2.5 gallons of 212F wort to 2.5 gal. of 65F water will 
     lower the temp to 138F, still too warm for me to want to splash it 
     around. 
 
     Have Fun! 
 
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY) 

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From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:45:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: DATELINE.....

 i personally was glad to see this - truth in labeling 
is something that would benefit all consumers.... 
 
like bottled on date AND best before estimates.... 
in addition to plant of manufacture, in addition 
to the brewers name and address, 
 
the cfr 27 (atf bible) mentions this for label approvals 
and it must have take many a lawyer to read between the 
lines...in regards to origins of the product.  the date 
info is all voluntary....god help us if the fda gets more 
involved as they are with the copper issues... 
 
 
the dateline program was indeed part of the *known* info for most 
commercial brewers and hard core/die hard micro drinkers.  for the most 
part the general public does not know, nor do i think they care.. if the beer 
is good they drink it, why should they (the consumer care).. 
 
as for the why they should care, if it false or misleading marketing that gets 
the consumer to buy it, that is wrong...and probably unethical. 
 
as for the price the consumer pays - being a commercial brewer - charge what 
the market will bear, as in any industry.  if some one is willing to 
by stroh's for $5/12pack and sam adams for $7/sixpack so be it. 
 
i can not and will not bash any brewer/brewery - we are all in the same boat 
although the boat may be springing a leak due to the amount of people 
in the boat.  the big question down the line is who has the lifepreservers. 
 
well enough, back to work.... 
joe 

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From: jucks at cfaft4.harvard.edu (Ken Jucks, ph # 617-496-7580)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:55:04 -0400
Subject: re: Wild Hops Recap

jander at wasatch.com writes about his experiment with using a wild 
hop in a batch of beer.  I have done this twice now (the second batch 
is about to get bottles). 
 
The hops I used were picked and dried by a friend who did some research 
and decided that they may be a varient of Clusters.  These hops were 
growing along an old RR right of way that is now a bike path in Arlington 
Mass, just outside of Boston.  Upon tasting my first batch, he and others 
in my brew club agreed with his conclusion.  They also agreed that it was 
a very interesting beer. 
 
This beer an IPA using a mix of the wild hop and EKG at 10 and 1 minute 
left in the boil.  As Jim said in his post, there was a real *stink* 
upon first addition, that did blow off.  My batch also had a very 
grassy taste to it that toned down alot after about 2 months. 
 
Jim, I suggest that you let it sit for a while, it will bet better. 
I had entered my first batch in a competition, and it scored quite 
well!!! 
 
Ken jucks 
jucks at cfa.harvard.edu 
 

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From: Michael Mahler <mmahler at shiva.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:24:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PH for extract

 
 
I was reading the help file in BrewWater 2.0 (GREAT program 
by the way) and since I'm an extract brewer, I was wondering 
what the preferred PH is?  Is it preferred to measure the 
PH of the wort  and then adjust or to start with the preferred 
PH of the water and then just let the PH be what it is when 
the male is added? 
 
TIA, 
 
Michael 
mahler at shiva.com 

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From: "Starke jr, Frederick A" <fastarke at ingr.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:23:15 -0500
Subject: Redhook/Dateline /Xmas spices

Gregory Guy writes: 
 
*Red Hook is brewed by the Red Hook Brewery in Seattle.  I think their 
*building another one back in the non-cascade hop east somewhere... 
 
Yes, in New Hampshire. I used to have some details about it in my head, 
but I could not even tell you if they are in production yet. 
 
Regarding the current Dateline thread: 
 
I was not able to see the piece, (I was being a Dad) however, I have 
discussed it with people who have, and read enough of the thread to be 
able to confidently  add the following: 
 I agree that labels should state the place of brewing/bottling of that 
particular beer. Years ago, Piels beer (remember that one) was brewed 
just down the street (1/2 mile) from where I lived, along with somewhere 
in PA(?) and maybe one other place.. I was a kid at the time. Anyway, I 
recall my grandfather saying that, if you bought Piels, make sure you 
got the one brewed in Willimansette because that had the best taste. How 
much of that was due to freshness, or local pride, I don't know, like I 
said, I was just a kid then. 
 
  As far as AB, are they pitching the "Born On" ad campaign hot -n- 
heavy right now or what? I will say, the first beer I *heard* of 
pitching that line was none other than Jim Koch himself. (We all 
remember the smashing bottles commercials, don't we) Those were the 1st 
bottles I recall with the notch in the month to "ensure freshness". Is 
AB's "new" campaign all that new? I think not. Is it a response 
acknowledging microbrews popularity? Judge for yourself. 
Me? If AB could make a good IPA and sell it at a competitive price, I'd 
buy it to see if I liked it, and if I did, I'd buy more. I don't care 
who brews a good beer, as long as it is a good beer, I will drink it. 
 
On a homebrewing note.. my cousin and I plan on cranking out Xmas brew 
this weekend. We are leaning toward a Wee Heavy a touch of cranberry. 
Any suggestions on spices. Private email preferred. 
 
Thanks for the bandwidth and any ideas. 
 
 
Rick Starke 
 
fastarke at ingr.com 
 

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From: cory at okway.okstate.edu (Cory Chadwell)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:45:14 -0700
Subject: Converting the swilling infidel

     Hey all, 
 
     Myself and a friend are in the middle of brewing a couple of batches 
     of beer for a good old fashioned "come over and taste the goodies till 
     you get silly party".  My problem is that the majority of my friends 
     have never strayed from the watery delights of bud-bliss.  I would 
     like to have a nice mix of beer that will open the door to taste for 
     them without scaring them to badly.  We currently have bottle 
     conditioning a typical micro-style copper, a fairly dark ale, and a 
     stout.  I would appreciate suggestions on one or two more styles that 
     have done well for you in the past with new tasters. 
 
     Also 
     I am converting my keg fridge from a commercial keg fridge to a soda 
     keg fridge ,for my own brew.  I have the soda kegs, CO2 tank and 
     regulator but I need info on mail order companies that can provide 
     fixtures for the tanks and a inline filter to go between the first and 
     second tank. 
 
     All help in much appreciated. 
 
     THX, CDC 

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From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:46:11 -0400
Subject: Dateline / Cool Immersion Chiller / Water for Bohemian Plz

"BTW, Bud's date of birth advertising is kinda catchy, isn't it?" -- Guy 
Gregory 
 
Yeah, but what does this date represent?  Brewing date?  Bottling date?  Just 
when is beer, BEER? How about some TRUTH IN LABELLING, folks (no -- please, 
no!! don't start *that* thread again!!) 
 
I'll chime in, in general agreement that present labelling is incomplete at 
best, but I agree too that listing every possible place the beer was made can 
be cumbersome for those who subcontract the job to many places.  How about a 
simple statement such as "Brewed by or under the direction of Belchenpuke 
Brewing Company"?  It isn't real specific, but so what?  Does the average 
consumer care exactly *where* a beer was made, or is it more important that 
they just know it could've been made somewhere other than that "little red 
brick building in Boston"? 
 
***** 
 
Ken Sullivan designed an immersion chiller: 
 
"The design 
uses 50' of 1/2" copper pipe. I started by winding 4 spirals 
of copper pipe that would just fit into my 5 gallon SS pot. 
Each of the spirals connects to a manifold pipe for both the 
water in and water out."  <etc> 
 
So you basically have the four spirals operating in parallel, so that each 
coil gets fresh cold water?  Interesting idea. 
 
You say you used 50' of 1/2" copper *pipe* - - as opposed to soft tubing? 
 How did you bend the pipe? 
 
***** 
 
Alex Santic says: 
 
"For my first lager, a Bohemian-style Pils, Ive been planning to 
start with distilled water and add calcium chloride to bring Ca up 
to 50 ppm." 
 
This will put your Chloride at a high 89 ppm which may (or may not) be 
detectable as a "salty" taste.  Just my own empirical datapoint, but I have 
found that at least with M&F pale ale malt I need about 25-30 ppm Ca to get 
the pH in line.  "Lager malt" may or may not react differently.  Some have 
raised a question as to whether that's an adequate concentration for 
stabilizing enzymes; don't know but my conversion tests & efficiency tell me 
that I'm about where I want to be.  Anyway, for your Pilsner, you might want 
to back off a bit (50%?) on the CaCl.  And adding a few drops of lactic or 
phosphoric acid if necessary isn't that tough and might better preserve the 
delicateness of the brew.  And as has been suggested, an acid rest can do the 
trick naturally if you have the time. 
 
***** 
 
Ken Schwartz 
El Paso, TX 
KennyEddy at aol.com 
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy 
 

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From: "Thomas K. Simacek" <c22tks at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 09:51:13 -0400 (CDT)
Subject: Dateline

I have happend to watch the dateline brew show. 
It again reinforced my opinion about those programs as a lot of crap! 
It is quite common everywhere that somebody else is manufacturing 
stuuff for other people - e.g. Sears appliances and tires, supermarket 
brands, dozens of silicon fabless fabs etc. etc., it would be a very long list 
indeed. So why pick on beer? Making beer in most cases is not exactly black 
magic
requiring special places (lambic and PU being an exemption). The problem is 
not who makes the beer, but what receipe do they use and how much do they 
try to save on ingrediences. As a mather of fact, 
I would expect Stroh's making better Boston beer than the one on Boston - 
they definitelly have better equipment and better expertise. 
If Budweiser just stopped whinig and started making some good tasting beer, 
I surely would appreciate  that! 
 
Tom Simacek 

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From: Bill Rust <wrust at csc.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 96 11:02 EDT
Subject: Wedding Bash/Bash, Bash, Bash!

Good morning Beer Guys. 
 
Well, the homebrew wedding fest was a success!  Can't say I want brew for a 
wedding again any time soon (I'm sure my wife will be happy about that :) 
We had 6 cornies of homebrew on tap and drained roughly 4 (Oops, only 100 
showed up).  Strangely enough, the Scotch Ale was the big favorite!  If you 
want recipes, check out: http://www.i1.net/~wrust/recipe.htm   BTW, for the 
bachelor party we smoked 2 lbs of domestic 2-row on a backyard smoker and 
left it overnight to dry.  The next day we brewed an all grain Rauch Ale 
(with WY #2565).  Should be a winner! 
 
On a more disturbing note, Scott Murman wrote: 
>                                     When discussing Oregon Brewing 
>Co., and unit I have absolutely no love or respect for, lo and behold 
>they are actually owned by Jim Koch and the Boston Brewing Co.  Now if 
>this isn't intentionally trying to mislead the consumer using false 
>labeling than what is?  (For those of you geographically challenged, 
>Oregon Brew is a yuppie brew that is totally a marketing gimmic.  The 
>beer isn't even very good.  Somewhat like a certain Boston Lager).  If 
>these quasi-investigative reporters had spent more time on the 
>implications of that, they might have been more effective convincing 
>people there's something fishy in Boston. 
 
What *is* the point of this thread?  How does it affect homebrewing?  Come 
on folks, is it time to rename this listserver 
"Brewery-conspiracy/beer-snob at aob.org"?  Maybe you ought to check out the 
actively fermenting sorghum/corn brew thread for something a lot more 
cutting edge and appropriate for this venue.  (Cool thread, BTW!) 
 
Well, gotta run.  I'm going to be doing some quasi-investigative reporting 
of my own.  "The Beers of Cancun". 
 
Skol. 
 
 --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
                          | Research has shown that good yeast growth 
 Bill Rust                | depends on certain fats in the wort. These 
 Master Brewer            | can be produced by yeast if well aerated, 
 Jack Pine Savage Brewery | but one alternative was to sling in the 
 http://www.i1.net/~wrust | occasional vermin.          - KEITH THOMAS 
 --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 

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From: Geza T Szenes/IPL <Geza_T_Szenes/IPL.IPL at notes.ipl.ca>
Date: 15 Oct 96  9:01:45 
Subject: Sherry Yeast

I make wine as well as beer, and following is brief diatribe about wine yeasts:
 
Until a few years ago most yeast sold for winemaking purposes was equivalent 
to the yeast bundled with the beer kits. In other words they were no-name, 
general 
purpose, generic wine yeast, with great variation in quality, and 
characteristics. 
A little later there was some choice, but again with rather generic qualities, 
such as: 
yeast for red wine, yeast for white wine, and if you were lucky "champagne" 
yeast. 
 
In the last 5 years there has been a tremendous improvement in terms of what is
available to the home winemaker.  Companies like Lalvin market 10 or more 
different yeast strains where the characteristics of the yeast are well known. 
Even companies like Wyeast market liquid cultures specifically for wine. 
 
Now, back to the original question: 
 
Sherry yeast (If it is a pure culture) is a special yeast used for making 
sherries only. 
Sherry is different from most wines that it uses a special yeast, which 
promotes the formation 
of a film like covering on the wine, called the "Flor". This only grows in the 
presence of 
air, and under the right conditions, such as PH, alcohol level.  The wine is 
deliberately 
exposed to air to encourage the formation of the "flor", but the "flor" itself 
protects the wine 
from oxidation, and it produces aldehydes. It is this yeast which gives sherry 
it's 
characteristic taste. 
 
If conditions are not exact for the forming of the "flor" very often the result
is a large volume 
of vinegar. 
 
If your culture was a strain of flor producing yeast, but you used it to 
ferment your wine 
without the exposure to oxygen, it will probably be OK.  It will certainly 
explain the lighter 
color.  My recommendations would be to : 
 
1. Make the wine into something that you can drink right away, (ie: lower in 
acid , and 
tannins, perhaps sweeten it a little) and drink it as fast as you can. 
 
2. Stay away from generic yeasts called "yeast for wine", but rather invest the
95 
cents or so to get pure varietal yeast specifically used for wines, such as the
ones made by Lalvin. 
They have a home page on the web, where they explain the characteristics of all
their strains. 
 
Good luck. 
*************************** Previous Memo 
***************************************** 
EDWARD SPADONI <SL9YN at cc.usu.edu>  Wrote: 
 
The question is, what is the difference between Sherry yeast and wine yeast 
if any at all? I used a packet of Sherry yeast to make a wine recipe I had made
before and it's taking longer to settle out and has a different color. When I 
made the 
recipe before I used a packet that said "For Wine" 
 

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From: bill-giffin at juno.com (Bill Giffin)
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:09:34 cst
Subject: More on calcium

Bill Giffin writes: 
Good morning all. 
 
>>>Dave B says: 
The simple answer is measure the mash pH and add calcium sulfate or 
chloride or carbonate as needed. 
<<< 
 
Why not use an acid rest or add lactic acid?  Is the key calcium or is it 
having the  pH be in the proper range?  I tend to believe that having the 
pH in the proper range is far more important then the amount of calcium 
in the mash. 
 
>>>Dave B: 
  These pH numbers and ppm numbers may be a result of the British 
concern for producing sugars efficiently from a low protein malt. 
<<< 
 
I have taken British malt and acidified it with lactic acid and managed 
to get good efficiency from this malt with only about 7 ppm of calcium. 
My water is softer then Pilsen by about 5 ppm.  So is it calcium or is it 
pH that we have to have to have an efficient mash? 
 
>>>Dave B: 
Czech Pilsen  is typically run at pH = 5.6 to 5.7  which contributes to 
some extent some higher tannin content and slower saccharification rates. 
The low calcium of Pilsen will not stabilize the alpha amylase as well as 
50 ppm, but in a high enzyme pilzen malt this may not be necessary. 
 <<<< 
 
Boy,  I have had at least 15 different Czech pils and very few of them 
have the degree of tannins that I can even notice. 
 
My saccharification rate is no problem and when I brew a Czech style pils 
I only add a bit of lactic acid to the sparge water to drop the pH of the 
sparge water to 5.7. 
 
>>> 
 50 ppm will do all of the above and seems to be a good number for most 
brews, 
<<< 
 
Not for a Czech pils 
 
Bill 
Richmond, Maine 
 
 
 
 
 

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