---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Champagne/Yeast Removal (john.hamilton)
  Re: Motorized Mill (Joe Rolfe)
  Re: Motorising that *** Corona!  (on the cheap) (Spencer W Thomas)
  Pat's HB Shop Woes (Spencer W Thomas)
  Chest Fever ("C.PEKARIK")
  photoperiodism in hops/shipping beer (ensmingr)
  Bottle Pasteurization (KennyEddy)
  Batch vs Fly (KennyEddy)
  Re: Cherry plambic ("Joel Plutchak")
  Decoction Theories Put To Test (Rob Kienle)
  Closed System Pressurized Fermentation (Anonymous)
  wit (Kit Anderson)
  Sterile filters (Arnaud Viez)
  Kegging at WARM tempetures... (Volt Computer)" <a-branro at MICROSOFT.com>
  Beer Engine Question ("Roy R. Rimmele")
  Pub Without Beer Help ("Roy R. Rimmele")
  Quebec Fishing/drinking expedition, Diastatic Extract ("David R. Burley")
  Brewing with blackberries (Kevin Woolard)
  Re: Scotch Thread / Pat's HB Shop Woes ("Brian Dixon")
  IBU Calculation ("Layne and Katrise")
  RE: pLambic Kriek ("atonalcm")
  barley wine hurrah! (Rae Christopher J)
  Brewsletter Software? (Randy Erickson)
  Wits for Judges! (Jim Busch)
  Batch Sparging ("Kelly C. Heflin")
  Re:Batch Sparging / Copper ring (Gary Knull)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:02:21 +1000
From: john.hamilton at deetya.gov.au
Subject: Champagne/Yeast Removal

I used to make sparkling wines many years ago.

I used as my main resource a book from the British Amateur Winemaker
series called Making Wines With a Sparkle.

Basically the main points were that when bottling you had to be very
careful about the sugar available for the 'secondary' fermentation - I
used a clinitest urine testing kit - as once used by diabetics. Too much
sugar = explosive bottles. Note that champagne yeast can ferment to
dryness levels and pressures which incapacitate our beer yeasts.

Next was the 'reumage' or what someone else has called the 'riddling'
process. This was achieved with much success by placing the inverted
bottles in a plastic crate sitting on 1 inch of sponge in the boot of my
car and driving around for a couple of weeks - the shaking settled all
the yeast into the special secondary fermentation caps which had hollows
in them to collect the yeast.

Finally, dry ice was used to freeze the yeast into the caps for the
'degorgement' when the cap was removed and the slug of frozen yeast,
champagne was ejected.

Note the bottle was very cold when this was attempted and I once had a
bottle explode on me. I was wearing a full face mask and a thick leather
welders apron while handling the bottle under a thick blanket as I was
totally sh*t scared of this happening - fortunately due to the extreme
coldness of the bottle and the very small airspace I had left in the
bottle, the explosion was not anything like I'd expected and I came out
unharmed. I'd recommend that you take very precaution you can until you
can find out what level of carbonation/pressures you get.

Read the book, it's an eye opener and give some great advice.


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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:00:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Subject: Re: Motorized Mill

try a riding lawnmower transmission, then you have several "forward"
speeds and a reverse that can help back "crap" out.

coupling the motor to the mill should be done with some type
of slip joint/belts

to the OSHA person - i did not intend to suggest electrical
short cuts in my previous post...but you would be surprised to
see how many commercial breweries do not even follow the local
regs as to milling.  most local inforcement people have no clue
what "brewery" means. most do not even know what tag out/lock out
means or "confined space".  sorry for the confusion....


joe

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:04:09 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Motorising that *** Corona!  (on the cheap)

A couple of years ago, I took the cue from a post to the HBD and found
a used ice cream maker motor for $3.  I looked for an older one with a
metal "gear" in the bottom, after chewing up the plastic "gear" in the
one on my (working) ice cream maker.

A couple pieces of wood, a few bolts, some solder, and a lot of filing
produced a motorized Corona mill.  Yeah, it's kind of slow, but I
don't have to stand there and watch it.

The ice cream maker motor has an automatic cutoff if it jams (with a
rock, e.g.), since it's designed to turn the ice cream canister until
it stops (which means the ice cream is done).

So, look around at local junk stores and flea markets.  There are
probably still some out there, just waiting for a new life.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:23:02 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Pat's HB Shop Woes 

Well, I can see both sides.  Pat's unhappy because the store wasn't
open.  On the other hand, Joe's in a bind.  

One idea for Joe: even if you can't afford help, are there local
homebrewers (who you trust) who would be willing to fill in for you in
exchange for a discount or some free supplies?  I have a friend who
has an arrangement like this with a local homebrew shop.  Seems like a
win-win situation in general.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

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Date: 20 Jun 97 09:32:29 EDT
From: "C.PEKARIK" <74163.1163 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Chest Fever

Hello	
	After all the talk of the tap towers, $$$$$$!!! 
YES You can drill through walls of a chest freezer. Granted, if you blindly
make holes you're bound to hit a tube but if you pull off the plastic top of the
wall and pull out insulation to view location of cooling tubes.

	On the 2 freezers I've converted, the tubes ran horizontally
at 2" intervals and the shank hole is 1".....tons of room. I was (at 1st)
concerned that the tighening of the tap shank nuts would dent in the 
freezer walls and hurt the cooling tubes but all went well as long as you 
don't crank the heck out of it. After measuring the tube locations, I was
able to mount a 15 1/2" SS drip tray, Co2 dist. mantifold and small
holes for Co2 in, attaching all stuff with self tapping screws. Replace
insulation and away you go.

	The only draw back .....too easy access for children.
And the plus, aside from cheaper cost, not only do you do elbow bends
daily but tone up with deep knee bends too.	

I welcome any questions.       Larry Kress
			RR # 22, Station Preston,
			Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
		Email: 74163.1163 at compuserve.com
(Email # is my mates but I live here too)		


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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:10:23 -0400
From: ensmingr at npac.syr.edu
Subject: photoperiodism in hops/shipping beer

The recent thread on photoperiodism in hops rang a little bell in my
head.  So I did a little reading and discovered information which may
interest some of you.

The first unequivocal demonstration of photoperiodic induction of
flowering was by the Frenchman Julien Tournois with the plant Humulus
japonicus (Japanese hops).  In his 1913 paper, Turnois concluded
'precocious flowering in young plants of hemp and hops occurs when they
are exposed to very short periods of illumination' (1913, Ann Sci Nat
Bot [Paris] ser.19, 49).  Regretably, this was Turnois' last paper, for
he was killed in 1914 as a soldier in WW-I.  For a more accessible
discussion on the history of research on photoperiodism and flowering,
see: Evans, LT (1969) The Induction of Flowering. Cornell University
Press.

 .................................................................

Regarding the recent thread on shipping beer ...

I contacted UPS, USPS, FedEx, and RPS and asked them about their
policies on shipping beer bottles.  

USPS, FedEx, and RPS said they would not ship beer bottles.  

UPS said it does not allow INTERstate shipping of beer bottles.  It does
allow INTRAstate shipping of beer bottles in California, Michigan,
Illinois, and New York.  As a part-time UPS employee, I will add that I
have personally unloaded several 48 foot trucks loaded entirely with
12-packs of beer bottles from one of those clubs ('Beer Across
America'?). 

Cheers!

Peter A. Ensminger
ensmingr at npac.syr.edu

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:17:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Bottle Pasteurization

Allen Czajkow asks about pasteurizing beer in the bottle:

"Finally, in the most recent edition of the Mead Lovers Digest, there was a 
comment that someone had killed yeast by putting the bottles into a 140 
degree hot water bath for about an hour.  Any thoughts on what this may do to

beer?  After the bath, the remaining active yeast flocced and dropped out of 
suspension very quickly.  It seems to me that this might improve the beers 
stability over time if you are force carbonating anyway, want to stop the 
fermentation at some level of resdiual sugars (especially if doing extract 
and can't control the mash temp/time), or may be used if you want to bottle a

still beer (ala Sam Adams Triple Bock).  Or am I completely crazy for even 
concidering this? - IMNTK."

During the malta thread a few weeks ago, I had thought of Charlie Pappazian's
assertion that holding the bottles at such-and-such temperature for
such-and-such period would pasteurize the product (since there's lots of
sugar and no alcohol, malta's shelf life presumably is short without such
measures).  Don't know if this is valid but my thought was that if the
product in the bottle (whatever it is) is carbonated, that heating would
drive off the CO2 form solution and overpressurize the bottle.  This could
result in flying bottlecaps or exploding bottles.  Any thoughts?

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy


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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:16:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Batch vs Fly

Kent Tracy asks about batch sparging vs "fly sparging":

"The batch sparging thread has me wondering... I fail to understand
the significant difference between maintaining a sparge water level
just above the grain bed (as I assume is the ideal for fly sparging),
and a sparge water level of arbitrary depth above the grain bed.
In other words, why trickle water in, balancing the flow, as
opposed to adding "batches"?  Is channeling theoretically the
drawback?  I seem to get similar extraction whether batch sparging
or fly sparging."

In my experience, adding too much water to the mash tun (i.e., more than a
couple inches over the grain bed), especially early-on, could potentially
leave a lot of dissolved sugar in the top of the water, which may never make
it to the kettle when the desired volume has been sparged.  I like to sparge
relatively close to the top of the grain for the first portion of the sparge;
only after the water on top is quite clear do I allow the depth to increase.
 At this point, what I have is basically a plain-water plunger pushing out
sugar-water below.

Just where on God's Green Earth did the term "fly sparging" come from?  I've
had flies visit my brewery before, but I try like hell to keep them out of
the sparge...

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy



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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:05:37 -0500
From: "Joel Plutchak" <joel at bolt.atmos.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Cherry plambic

In HDB #2445, Grant W. Knechtel asked:
[Heavily edited]
>...it's coming on cherry season, and I have a newbie kind of question.
>...can I make a decent cherry plambic from commonly available American
>cherries?  Would they generate enough flavor to make it worth while?
>...should I pit the cherries or not?  Any opinions on how much fruit
>per gallon?  TIA for the collective interaction.

   I'm sorta in the same boat.  I've never brewed with berries,
but right now I've got a tree full of rapidly ripening cherries
of some sort in my front yard.  Something like a cherry stout keeps
coming to mind, but I'm utterly ignorant about how to evaluate
the quality of the cherries, what quantity to use, when to use
them, how to process them, etc.  Any tips or pointers to procedures
would be heartily appreciated; I'd like to get something at least
approaching drinkability without going through a huge amount of
experimentation.
- --
Joel Plutchak

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:28:58 -0500
From: Rob Kienle <rkienle at interaccess.com>
Subject: Decoction Theories Put To Test

After long hiatus from my last frustrated decoction (the beer has always
turned out fine but the brewing's a pain - looonnng conversion times
mostly), and after careful re-reading of Noonan and a review of saved
posts from the endless decoction thread of this Spring...I conducted my
first "reinformed" decoction last weekend.

Two assumptions: 

1) At least half the original purpose of decoction mashing was to manage
temperature rests, and my 20th-century approach gives me a more
convenient way for managing temps. Hence I relied mostly on direct heat
application to manage protein rests and avoid sac/dex temp ranges while
managing the decoction. Because this was in part a test, I used just a
single large decoct so I could give it sufficient attention.

2) This was the third test batch for an altbier. The previous two were
infusion mashed; this one was meant as a comparison of a traditional
ingredient mix (ie, no crystal) vs a spiked (ie slight amounts of
crystal) infusion. In the previous batches, generated with a 135
dough-in/protein rest (see HBD thread on avoiding 122), I noticed a
tremendous amount of break in the primary. Batch 1, cold aging as we
speak, still appears cloudy and Batch 2 is in secondary prior to cold
aging (the verdict's out). Hence, given the malts I'm using (all
imported), I reconsidere the 122 rest to help reduce break and improve
clarity. 

Again based on the HBD thread, I had a quandry about using the 122 rest
while decocting without degrading too many medium-weight proteins. I
also wanted to avoid going to my 149 sac rest (appropriate for an alt)
too soon, since even a smooth decoct will take an hour to complete.
Hence my decision to use technology and not the decoct to mediate temp
rises. 

The rationale, thankfully, is much more involved than the procedure. I
doughed in at 104 for 15 mins, then applied heat to rise to 122. Held
about 20 mins and pulled about 30-40% very thick decoction, to which I
added a small amount of water to aid in conversion and heated to 150.
When the main mash had rested at 122 for 30 mins, while still working on
the decoct, I direct-heated the mash from the low PR temp to 135 and
parked there throughout the remainder of my decoct manipulation. An hour
and a half later I had successfully converted the decoct to a negative
iodine and 30 min boil, and re-introduced it to the mash. The mash only
went to about 142 so I again added heat to rise to 149. An hour later
the iodine checked out quite negatively and I was overjoyed. 

An important point for me, I think, was that in studying the traditional
German 40-50-60-70 technique, I finally figured out that even when using
the decoct for temp rises, both thick decocts are made *before* getting
to sac temps (one between 40-50, and the other between 50-60). So I'm
quite sure my prevous problems were due to returning unconverted
starches to a converted mash if a thick decoction is taken during sac or
dex resting. 

On my next batch, I may attempt two decocts (I believe a third, thin
decoct is unnecessary in modern times since all the thin stuff gets
boiled anyway), though I am undecided as to when to pull them. The point
I wanted to make through this lengthy post is that the HBD theories
tested out most excellently and that having the ability to manage mash
temps separately from decoct manipulation gives us a distinct advantage
over our antique counterparts, and we should use this advantage
accordingly. 

In addition, the use of a *limited* 122 rest (limited based on the
ability to boost its temp to a safer *long-term* parking spot of 135
independently of decoct manipulation) seems to have paid off well. This
third batch had considerably less initial sediment in the primary than
my previous two. I should note, however, that unlike my previous tries,
I allowed the hot wort (irish-moss enhanced) to sit for a full 20
minutes to settle out before racking into the primary (through
hop-layered false bottom and CF chiller). Not sure if this was a factor.

Time will tell as to the clarity, taste, etc. of the finished beer. For
now I'm happy to report that I hit my projected 1.048 SG right on target 
and with verified starch conversion all along the way. 

- -------
Cheers4Beers,
Rob Kienle
Chicago, IL
rkienle at interaccess.com



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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:46:38 +0200 (MET DST)
From: nobody at REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Subject: Closed System Pressurized Fermentation

To the collective;

    Thanks in advance for your help on this.  I've just 
finished reading Teri Fahrendorf's excellent article 
_Closed System Pressurized Fermentation_ in the 1992 
special issue of Zymurgy.  Does anybody out there in beer 
land actually use this process?  It certainly sounds like 
the way to go.  Some questions: 

 ...I can't seem to find some of the equipment needed for 
the setup, at least at the homebrew shops around me, any 
suggestions ?  

 ...How do you take specific gravity readings in a closed 
system to know when to transfer to the secondary, or is 
it just guesswork at that point?  I'm sure you could 
siphon from the out/liquid connect, but wouldn't you just 
get the yucchy sediment layer?  

 ...After vigorous activity and blowoff in the primary, 
how do you top off in the secondary to get a full five 
gallons while maintaining a closed system? 

Don't want to waste the bandwidth in case no one 
responds, but in the event you do, I can post a more 
detailed description of Teri's process.  Again, thanks. 

By the way, sorry for the dummy email address, I can't do 
it any other way right now.  Obviously, I can't receive 
private email.

BoboBrazil
- ---


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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:09:27 -0400
From: Kit Anderson <kitridge at bigfoot.com>
Subject: wit

>I'm not familiar with either the BrewTek or YCKC Wit yeast, but I have 
>brewed numerous times with Wyeast Wit 3944.  I've taste tested my Wit 
>head-to-head with Celis (and separately Celis with Hoegaarden).  My Wit was 
>very similar to Celis (and I couldn't distinguish bet. Celis and Hoegaarden 
> -- ok, it was at the last stop on a pub crawl).  What different profile 
>would you get using these other yeasts over Wyeast?  I'm curious what 
>difference I could expect in a Wit fermented with them.

BrewTek and YCKC taste the same. Breadier and less phenolic than Wyeast.
BrewTek's culture is on steriods. Very vigorous and it will be done in 5-7
days. Wyeast takes weeks. Funny... it didn't use to.

>My normal approach to adding spices in a Wit is to add 1/2 with 15 min left 
>in the boil and 1/2 at flame out.  This seems to keep some amount of flavor 
>and aroma of the spices.  I use about 2 oz. of both coriander and Curacao 
>orange peel in total.

Try adding half at the last 10 minutes and half in secondary.

- ---
Kit Anderson	
Bath, Maine	   <kitridge at bigfoot.com>		

I suppose that it's theoretically possible for a Yankee to
make decent barbecue. But it sure ain't a pretty thought!
                                        -Smokey Pitts


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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:10:16 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Arnaud Viez <aviez at teaser.fr>
Subject: Sterile filters

Hello brewers,

am I the only french homebrewer writing here?
I am studying the opportunity of the creation of a micro-brewery, brewing
english-type brands.
We plan to bottle our beer, without refermentation, and so without adding
any yeast in the bottles. For the beer to have a comfortable shelf life, we
don't want to use pasteurization (sorry for this awful word, I won't do it
again), and we have been told that the use of sterile filters is very safe
and will avoid any contamination or instability of the bottled beer.
Is there anyone having information about that, or any opinion?
            --------------------------------------------------
            | Arnaud VIEZ, Saint-Quentin-en-Yvelines, France |
            |       Web : http://www.teaser.fr/~aviez        |
            |       Minitel : 3614 Teaser bal Guinness       |
            |            Skrivit din e brezhoneg !           |
            --------------------------------------------------


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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:52:32 -0700
From: "Brander Roullett (Volt Computer)" <a-branro at MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Kegging at WARM tempetures...

I have been trying to get into kegging, and been having problem with
FOAMing in a big way.  I have been told that i need to keep the kegs
cool, but i cannot afford (space and money) to get a beer fridge, plus i
wanna take them camping and stuff with me (medieval style, i do SCA) so
thats not really an option either...

what tricks have the experienced keggers used to to Carbonate at warmer
tempetures?  Any advice you all can give is great....

Plus anyone build a portable bar out of wood with a draft system?  i
would like to build a case for 3 kegs that has an extended (upwards)
back peice that has 3 taps in it.  build it with wheels (like a
handtruck) and make it look like a free standing cabinet (hide the
hoses)...  i would love to hear how other people have done portable
draft systems...

Brander (Badger) Roullett  badger at nwlink.com  a-branro at microsoft.com
Brewing: 	http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html
- ----------------------In The SCA----------------------
Lord Frederick Badger of Amberhaven, TWIT, Squire to Sir Nicholaus
Red Tree Pursuivant-Madrone, An Tir  Marshal-College of St Bunstable

It's not enough to be able to pick up a sword. 
You have to know which end to poke into the enemy.            
 - (Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies)


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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 11:58:01 -0400
From: "Roy R. Rimmele" <flossbos at mindport.net>
Subject: Beer Engine Question

I'm interested in possibly obtaining and using a beer engine with a 
"corny" keg instead of a CO2 bottle. I know that many of the pubs draw 
their ales...with these 'pumps' in the UK. I have a couple of questions 
about them though as I'm still a relatively new homebrewer. If a beer 
engine is used, will the beer have to be used in a short period of time 
to keep it from going flat? Or assuming that priming sugar was used, will 
the CO2 formed be sufficient to keep the beer pressurized and 'fresh'? If 
this is too basic, I apologize, as I said I've only been brewing for a 
short period of time........Roy

>                            Roy R. Rimmele
>                         flossbos at mindport.net
>                           flossboss at aol.com

                     'So much beer.....so little time!

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 12:06:26 -0400
From: "Roy R. Rimmele" <flossbos at mindport.net>
Subject: Pub Without Beer Help

I've been fortunate enough to be in London several times in the past 
couple of years. Unfortunately, when I was there I was not a home brewer, 
hence my query for help. Does anyone out there have any information about 
a store in the Convent Garden area of London, called 'A Pub Without 
Beer'. I'm interested in either writing or calling them. They carry 
anything you can think of beer/pub related. (I don't think they do home 
brew supplies). i.e. glasses, coasters, pitchers, towels, 
mirrors........and I think beer engines. I'm looking for a correct 
mailing address, and or telephone number so I can contact them. Can 
anyone help. Thanks.......Roy

>                            Roy R. Rimmele
>                         flossbos at mindport.net
>                           flossboss at aol.com

                     'So much beer.....so little time!

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:25:29 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Quebec Fishing/drinking expedition, Diastatic Extract

Brewsters:

Wow! was I impressed with Quebec and Montreal specifically.  Not only did I
have a great time fishing for Walleye and Pike in the La Verendrye Park at
Domaine Shannon, Jacques Bourdouxhe's recommendations of locally produced

Belgian style beers were right on the money. Following Jacques'
instructions we went to a supermarket (!!!) to buy these beers.   La Fin Du
Monde - a Gueuze style was exceptional but all were extremely good and to

type.  Picture this.  A bunch of fisherman, and an outdoor
writer/international bow-only bear hunter sitting in a cabin in full
outdoor regalia in the Canadian Northwoods evaluating beers.  Writer/bear

hunter says "Nice bouquet" when offered a La Fin.  Later after we had a
"evaluated" a few more ( Duvel clones, Bocks, etc, etc.) he said "I don't 
now about you, but I'm getting hammered"

On the way back we stopped in Montreal and stayed at a small hotel in the
Vieux Montreal area.  Shades of Old Paris!  Jacques unfortunately had
another appointment, so we missed the opportunity to meet.  But there was
a beer festival in the pavillion at the old port area.  200 international
beers provided by local distributors for a fair price by the glass!  Many,
many Belgian beers to my surprise. My lawnmower beer drinking buddy fell 
in love with the bananas in La Chouffe and the many faces of Rodenbach Gran
Cru ( great with the Saucisse Toulouse avec Moutarde - French Style grilled
sausage on a roll with mustard)).  After we had sampled many types, he said
"I never imagined such variety in tastes."  Now we only have 249,999,999
more to convince. 


Claude at the Boreale booth was a fisherman ( "Ah, yes you Americans always
go for the big Pike!") and we talked for a long time about fishing while he
provided the Rouge glass by continuing glass for free.  Great time.  I
recommend you re-visit Montreal/Quebec for the French ambiance, excellent
food, friendly people as well as the availability of great local and
imported beers.

- --------------------------------------
In response to many private and HBD questions (Heiner Lieth, for example)
here are my recommendations for handling diastatic malt extracts.  The
following techniques can be an excellent stepping-stone to all-grain
brewing.

Too often extract brewers blindly follow the recipe to add things like
flaked barley and other starchy adjuncts without treating this recipe any

differently than a straight extract recipe.  Starchy adjuncts need to be
handled differently. Use Diastatic malt extracts to reduce starch haze and
free up your crystals', Chocolate's, etc  full taste.  If the can doesn't
say diastatic - it isn't.  Try EDME's offering of diastatic extracts. No
Affiliation. Yadda, yadda. Starchy adjuncts have nothing to offer except
problems without the diastatic power of the extract

First rule - ONLY use pre-gelatinized adjuncts - like flaked barley or
corn, or pre-gelatininize any adjuncts like corn meal or cream of wheat 
by cooking before use.

Second rule - keep the amount of starch containing adjuncts to less then 
20 - 30% of the grist depending on the diastatic power of the extract.  10% 
is a good place to start.

Third rule - When handling diastatic malts do not add the extracts at the
boil, but hold them in solution in the presence of the milled or flaked,
gelatinized adjuncts at 155-158 for 15 -30 minutes before removing the
grain bag, rinsing and then boiling. 


So here's how it goes.  Add the adjuncts  in a grain bag to hot water, add
the extract, allow to stand 15-30 minutes at 158F to prevent losing any
dextrins originating in the extract, remove the grain bag, rinse with hot
water and boil, add hops, etc. The temperature of the strike liquor 
(brewing water) will depend on the amount of adjuncts used and the volume 
of the water in the boiler.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith asks about the number of atmospheres of CO2 to carbonate wine for
imitation bubbly.  Numbers like 3-5 atmospheres are typical, but dangerous
if you use old glass *Champagne* bottles, as scratches weaken the glass
considerably. Never try to reuse US weak thin walled sparkling wine bottles
at this high a pressure as they will not stand it reliably. True Champagne 
bottles have a crown cork type top like a beer bottle and are very heavy
glass with a deep punt (indent) in the bottom. Best way is to carbonate in
a keg, Counter Pressure fill the *cold* bottles with *cold* carbonated
wine.  Stopper and wire the tops down immediately.  I recommend starting
with plastic bottles to determine the carbonation you like, as they should
work fine and be much less dangerous.  

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
On a related topic Andrew Stavrolakis asks:

>It's my understanding that proper champagne is fermented in the bottle.
>How then, do champagne manufacturers remove the yeast sediment from their
>bottles, producing such a crystal clear beverage?

In the "methode Champagneoise", after fermentation with priming sugar (or
young fermenting wine) in the bottle is complete, the wine is "riddled" by
slowly upending (over several days or weeks) the crown corked (like a beer
bottle) bottle until all the yeast has collected in the cap.  The neck is
frozen in a salt/ice mixture to trap the yeast residue in the ice and the
cap removed, the ice plug is blown out (degorgement) and the degorgeur's
thumb quickly placed over the neck, the "dosage" of wine/sugar/brandy in
various ratios are added depending on the champagne style (extra brut,
brut, etc.) and the cork is inserted and wired down. The high pressure in
the bottle (5-6 atmospheres at the beginning) makes this procedure
necessary to have a completely clear wine all the way through. Sometimes
Italian sparkling wines are less carbonated and can be poured into a number
of waiting glasses off the lees like we do bottle conditioned beer. Of
course, mama always gets the last cloudy glass "for her complexion".  Ain't
mamas great the word over?!

Bulk method carbonates in a tank with CO2, filters and bottles. Some
bottles which say fermented in THE bottle (rather than fermented in THIS
bottle or methode' Champagnoise) are fermented in the bottle, aged on the
yeast and then the carbonated wine withdrawn from the bottle under
pressure, filtered and rebottled in clean bottles to avoid the extremely
labor intensive riddling and disgorging process.  This latter method makes
a wine nearly as good as the Methode Champ.. if it is aged on the yeast for
more than a yeast as in the original method.

- ----------------------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 11:04:26 PDT
From: kev at flyer.gvg.tek.com (Kevin Woolard)
Subject: Brewing with blackberries


Oh wise ones of the brew,

I am going to have a bumper crop of blackberries at my house (Northern Cal.),
and I would very much like to include some in my next beer. Does anyone have a
favorite recipe? I have never brewed with fresh fruit so any advice would be
appreciated. Direct e-mail is fine.

Brew on!!

Kevin Woolard

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:40:25 +0100
From: "Brian Dixon" <brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Scotch Thread / Pat's HB Shop Woes

[snip]
>The differences between Scottish and English ales are many.  In addition
>to the differences already described here recently, the Scots tended to
>use shorter boils, lower temperature ferments (on the order of 50
>degrees F), and lager-like aging.  There is also a tendency to use small
>amounts of roasted barley (2-3%) rather than crystal or caramel malts
>for flavor and color.
[snip]

Randy,

I think you'll like Noonan's book on Scotch and Scottish ales.  For
example,
it'll clarify some things like your comment above about shorter boils
(etc).  On
that note, I believe (check the book) that longer not shorter boils are
used and
is what's responsible for some of the caramel flavor found in Scotch and
Scottish ales.  Somewhere in there are instructions for caramelizing the
wort
a bit by lautering right into the boil pot while the boil pot is on a
fairly high heat.
The initial wort gets caramelized, but quits caramelizing as the depth of
wort
prevents high temperatures in the boil pot.  I'll take a look in the book
and see
if I can find out more on this stuff (now that you mention it).  The
comment on
the roasted barley surprised me too, but I can't think why.  It's been 2-3
months
since I last looked at Noonan's book, so I'll take a fresh new look at it
myself.

Brian

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:44:26 -0700
From: "Layne and Katrise" <wetpetz at oberon.ark.com>
Subject: IBU Calculation

Hey all, I have questions for the brewers with spread sheet brew
calculators.

	I've been working on a great little spreadsheet to figure out what my
recipes should do for me in reality.  I've been using Papazian's
Utilization chart to get my bitterness extraction down with a constant of
1.35 in the following formula.

IBU = #oz hops x %Alpha Acid x %Utilization
>-------------------------------------
>total gallons x Constant

	My question is this.  How can I adjust the resulting IBU value when I am
using whole hops and plugs?  I've been using the above calculation for
pellets.  Should I adjust the %Utilization by -10% or should I use a
different Constant for whole hops?

	Is there a formula I can use in a spreadsheet to give me a %Utilization
number based on wort boil gravity?  I hate having to compare the numbers to
a chart to get an approximate %Utilization number for my calculator.

	Does anyone use a different Constant other that 1.35?  If so Why?

Thanks all,


Layne & Katrise Rossi
wetpetz at oberon.ark.com
Campbell River, BC
***********************************************************
To try and fail is better than
failing because we didn't try!
***********************************************************


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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:28:18 -0400
From: "atonalcm" <atonalcm at bestweb.net>
Subject: RE: pLambic Kriek

>From: "Grant W. Knechtel" <GWK at hartcrowser.com>
>Subject: Cherry plambic

>....can I make a decent cherry plambic from commonly available American
cherries? 

You might want to use a portion of "sour cherries" (around 25%-50%) to
approximate the Sharbeek (sp) cherries.  Otherwise the cherry flavor might
seem a little like the cherry flavor you would get in cherry flavored
Jello.

>Would bing cherries have enough color to survive a year or more in
tertiary with brettanomyces? 

I'm not sure what color you are shooting for, but the color range for a
Kriek is rather "wide open"! 

 >If I do cherries, should I pit the cherries or not?

DO NOT PIT THEM!!   :>)  The inclusion of the pits adds to the complexity
of the cherry flavor profile....If you include the pits, it should prevent
it from tasting like cherry
syrup.

>Should I perhaps split the batch and try both?  [pitted and not pitted]
no, use all the pits.

>Any opinions on how much fruit per gallon?   

I've seen some seemingly authentic recipies with up to 2 lbs of cherries
per gallon of wort.

Good Luck
Chris Milmerstadt

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:01:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rae Christopher J <3cjr7 at qlink.queensu.ca>
Subject: barley wine hurrah! 


in about 14 days i will begin a marvelous endeavor, but i'd like the
collective's final word on my recipe and plan, as it would be a major
shame to waste all this wort and money...

recipe:
1# 40L crystal malt
	hold at 170F for 45 mins, with grains in a grain bag,
in 2 gal filtered h2o.  remove bag and wash with 1 gal h2o at 170F

add:
12# light malt extract syrup (unhopped)
2# honey
2 oz chinook plugs
	boil for 30 mins

add:
3 oz fuggles	
1 tsp irish moss
	boil for 30 mins

add:
1 oz fuggles
	remove from heat and steep 2 mins, then immersion chill

strain, and pour onto yeast cake from last batch --Wyeast 1728 (scottish
ale?).  beware exploding krausen.  ferment for ~ a week  at 70F, so sg gets
below 1.020, then transfer to glass carbouy.  ferment ~ one month  at 60F.
add a pack of dry champagne yeast, and ferment one more week, or until
fermentation is complete (this was recomended in case the 1728 can't
handle the high alcohol, which is unlikely).  

add finings (1 tsp gelatin in 3 oz boiled, cooled water).  let sit 3 days.

add 1.25 cups extra light dry malt extract.  bottle.  let age 'till new
year's...drink...mmm.


am i about to make a grievous error? i can't think of any, but i do miss
the obvious on occasion.  am i using enough hops at each stage?  am i
adding the irish moss at the correct time?

please reply to me personally; i'll digest the responses, and update
the collective from my brewing diary as the brewing progresses.

___________________________________________________________
This is Chris' signature:

C____ R__
    &%

 His home page is at http://qlink.queensu.ca/~3cjr7/




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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:20:25 -0700
From: Randy Erickson <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: Brewsletter Software?

Greetings all:

This is a bit off topic, but it turns out the person who publishes our club
newsletter cannot continue, and we are at risk of losing it if someone
doesn't step up.

Since I'm one of the few who has a (barely) decent computer and a
printer, I'm inclined to offer my help, but I have absolutely no desktop
publishing experience.

Can anyone affiliated with publishing a club newsletter offer any advice
or experience?  Are there any relatively affordable programs out there
which are easy for a tech type (but no artist) to use?  Is there anything
suitable that I'm overlooking (like in MS Office)?

Thanks very much -- Randy in Modesto

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:59:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Wits for Judges!

Glad to see that Bill Ridgely still reads the digest!  

<nyone who has seen a yeast press at work in a Scottish brewery 
<(a pretty messy operation) can see the potential problems, as 
<well as the reason huge amounts of pressed cake are pitched in 
<subsequent batches.

Brings back images of my last tour through Fullers where they employ
a gigantic yeast press containing scores of plates and some really 
nasty drippings!  Whoever said brewing had to be impeccibly clean has
not visited old UK or Belgian brewhouses!  As much as Im a proponent of
super clean well made Germanic lagers, I sometimes feel we have lost
or are losing some of the character and charm of the old world 
methods of brewing.  While I welcome the consistency of the recent
years Pilsner Urquell I also miss the occasional special pint that
seems to exceed all typical ones in its prefection.  While the 
average state of some beers may improve with technology I think we
dismiss some of the individual character that is sometimes wonderful.
Or maybe Ive just been away from Belgium and Franconia for too long!

Kit clears up some of his reasoning behind spicing his wit in the
secondary:

<The orange peel can be boiled or added at secondary. I have found most US
<judges expect citrus aroma. Orange in particular. A lot of this comes from
<the right yeast. I haven't found Curacao to add any orange aroma. So I add
<sweet orange peel to the secondary for the judges.

Well there you have it!  Kit wants to WIN RIBBONS, ;-)  Sheesh and I 
just want to be able to replicate Celis or Hoegaarden.  Silly me.  I
will note that the most aggressivly citrus Witbier Ive ever had is 
Raaf from the Netherlands.  There is something about the poundability
and refreshing character found in a Raaf on a nice day in Amsterdam.
Or maybe its just that everyday seems nicer in Amsterdam.... <g>. I
think Im getting nostalgic as I plan my next beer hunt!

<The only time I didn't get a score above 38 was when I used corainder from
<Penzey's.

Hey if your brewing a Celis clone it should get a 50!  Come on judges,
dont be afraid to score a beer highly when it deserves it.  If Im 
served a VogelBrau Pils or Prima Pils clone Ill judge it a 50.

<Subject: Cut Your Nipples Everybody!

And I expected this to be followed by a solicitation on yet another
XXX web site!  ;-)

<I'm not familiar with either the BrewTek or YCKC Wit yeast, but I have 
<brewed numerous times with Wyeast Wit 3944. 

I also really like beers made from Wyeast Wit yeast.  This yeast 
also makes very fine Belgian strong ales, you can even add some 
orange peel to the secondary.  <g>.   I just prefer to do business
with Dr. Dan at YCKC, a personal thing you know.

Prost!

Jim Busch

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 20:18:42 +0000
From: "Kelly C. Heflin" <kheflin at mail.monmouth.com>
Subject: Batch Sparging

I've really enjoyed the posts about batch sparging.
Always thought about it but never did it. I think I'm gonna go with 
the quick drain of the mash the add water and recirculate til clear.
then quick drain again.

Sounds like a good system.

OK I;ll bite. I brew and juggle. Hey guess what. 
I also ride a unicycle...not while drinking or brewing....
there must be something funny here...don't know what it is...

kelly
Kelly Heflin
kheflin at monmouth.com

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:30:37 -0600
From: Gary Knull <gknull at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Subject: Re:Batch Sparging / Copper ring

"Bryan L. Gros" <grosbl at ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu> wrote:

>People have been discussing the idea that it is easier to drain the 
>grain bed of liquid during the sparge rather than trying to monitor
>the inflow and outflow of sparge water.
>
>I use such a copper ring to deliver my sparge water.  I keep the hot
>sparge water in a 5 gallon Gott to which I have added a ball valve
>in place of the spigot.  After recirculating the runoff a bit, I run the
>wort from the mashtun (via a ball valve in the bottom of a converted
>keg) to the boiler and raise the Gott up to deliver the sparge water
>on top of the grain.  It is a pretty simple thing, in my experience, to
>match the flows.  You watch for about five minutes to get them
>in synch and check again in 20 minutes.  Aiming for a one hour
>sparge, the outflow is pretty low, so it requires very little 
>monitoring to be sure the level of sparge water is not too high or
>too low.
>
>Just my experience.

You're right, I didn't give it much of a chance and never got proficient at
it.  In the meantime, I got hooked on batch sparging and couldn't resist
expounding on the benefits of it, real or imagined. I still feel that there
is a time saving to be made with batch sparging without losing efficiency,
especially using multiple rinses but I have no figures to back this up,
other than the one time a year or so ago when I tried the traditional sparge
and got no better efficiency. With all this batch-sparging talk, though, I
see a number of experiments in my future to determine runoff SG and pH and
sparge- time vs efficiency. Not that I feel the need to convert the
traditional spargers among us; we all tend to hold on to our own procedures
quite tenaciously. But if the results look interesting enough, I'll post them.

Beers to you all,

Gary Knull
Edmonton, AB
Canada


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