---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  RE. Bottle of ice questions (Clif Moore)
  Mead (Antony Hayes)
  Black Beer and Other American Styles ("C&S Peterson")
  Opening Frozen beer, etc., ("David R. Burley")
  Phil's Phalse bottom ("Kerr, David")
  Outbreak Ale (Jerry Cunningham)
  Re: aluminum pots (Larry Johnson)
  RE: On Botulism ("Larry F. Byard")
  Removing Corona Painted labels (SCRIT)
  Genny Cream Ale / exploding beer cups (Larry Johnson)
  Ideas (Dan Wieleba)
  Re: Iodophor-stained hoses (Mike Uchima)
  Botulism - Other Resources ("Richard Cuff")
  Cream Ales ("Raymond Estrella")
  Report on FiveStar Products Trial (RANDY ERICKSON)
  My Dogs Plus/insecticides/fertilizers ("Grant W. Knechtel")
  Lager pitching temps, phloating phalse bottom (rbarnes)
  Barleywine ect (huskers)
  Blue Moon Belgian Wit (Chris Dodge)
  The Brewery now at realbeer.com?? ("Robert Marshall")
  tally of juggling brewers (AlannnnT)
  Cream Stout Extract Recipe ("DPC Michael E. Sandell")
  Homebrew in Pennsylvania ("DPC Michael E. Sandell")
  Pre-chiller (Jason Henning)


NOTE NEW HOMEBREW ADDRESS:  hbd.org 

Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hbd.org
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.) 

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to homebrew-request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
**ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!! 
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at alpha.rollanet.org

Homebrew Digest Information on the Web: http://hbd.org

Requests for back issues will be ignored. Back issues are available via:

  Anonymous ftp from...
	hbd.org	/pub/hbd	
	ftp.stanford.edu	/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer
  E-mail...
        ftpmail at gatekeeper.dec.com (send a one-line e-mail message with 
                                   the word help for instructions.)
  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:39:26 -0800 (AKDT)
From: Clif Moore <cmoore at gi.alaska.edu>
Subject: RE. Bottle of ice questions

>I was recently served a bottle of beer (in a hotel pub) that
>had been stored at an improperly low temperature.  When I
>opened the twist top, "pfffffft", the contents sprayed out,
>instantly leaving an iceberg inside the bottle.  The
>beertender thought I would be upset, but instead I was
>fascinated.  No, it wasn't an "ice beer."
>Questions:
>1. What happened?  Please explain it in terms of temperature
>and pressure, with chemistry if necessary.  Why is the beer
>liquid in the bottle until I open it, then it becomes high
>pressure gas and solid?

Under quiescent (still, quiet) conditions, and proper containment 
(smooth walls so as to provide few nucleation points) water will
cool to well below its freezing point.  This is called a super cooled
fluid.  The shock of opening the bottle caused the water to freeze.
This flash crystallization yields significant heat resulting in a rapid
temperature rise to equilibrium temp, or somewhere in the vicinity
of 0 deg. C.
So what was once carbonated beer has now had much of the water
removed from it in the form of ice and the remaining fluid still
contains the full CO2 load.  The CO2 bursts forth in a gas gush
and takes with it the unfrozen water and beer goodness.
As for drinking the spray,  I'd just order another beer.
Hope this cartoon view is of use.
Clif Moore


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 13:30:22 -0700
From: Antony Hayes <ahayes at oldmutual.com>
Subject: Mead

Jeff said, "

Now, I brewed my first mead last week.  Gravity went from 
1058 OG down to 0995 FG in 5 days.  One thing is wrong, 
however.  This stuff is SOUR!!!!  It tastes like an infection, but 
I'm not sure.  At this point, it is absolutely undrinkable.  Should
I throw it out or does it need to age?

Don't turf the mead. I have had batches that smelled and tasted like
detergent/ disinfectant afer three months, only to smooth out as
intended after another nine. Most mead recipes recommend waiting for a
year before drinking, and this is possibly why. On the other hand, I
have also had batches ready after four months.

Ant

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 7 Jul 97 12:02:42 UT
From: "C&S Peterson" <CNS_PETERSON at msn.com>
Subject: Black Beer and Other American Styles

HBDers- 

I have been reading with interest the recent musings on "Black Beer".  I have 
not yet noticed this style emerging in my local micro retail cooler, but 
always felt that Schwartzbier styles had far more general appeal than other 
dark styles of beer.  Stout and porter fanatics may disagree here, but I think 
that overall, assertive styles like stouts and porters by their nature have a 
limited sales potential for the microbrewer.  The Schwartzbier style, being a 
lager, has a smoother delivery, and more up front sweetness that I think will 
catch on with a greater number of craft beer drinkers (this is not to say that 
one style is better than another, just that it is my belief the dark lager 
style has a better chance at challenging the appeal level of other regular 
craft beer styles than stouts and porters).  

The only problem was what to call the beer -- I guess the best the craft 
brewers can come up with is "Black Beer."

But in any event, the Schwartzbiers I had a few years ago in Berlin were akin 
to Dunkles, but with more roasted flavors and perhaps more hops thown in.  
Some call this style a "black pilsener" but I disagree; I would say that the 
Schwartzbier style is more like a standard strength lager with loads of Munich 
malt and some chocolate malt.  It is far less roasty than say a porter or a 
stout, and has the body approaching the level of a normal strength Bock.  I 
believe BT had a great article on dark lagers a few years back -- those 
interested might want to look it up.  

But what is most interesting here is the development of so-called "American 
Styles" of craft beer.   American Pale Ale, American Wheat, American Amber, 
American Pre-Prohibition Lager -- is American Black Lager next?  I think it 
would be a very interesting addition to the other "regular" styles offered by 
most craft beer makers.  So what will make this style American, if in fact it 
catches on at all?  Dry hopping with Cascades?  50 IBUs?  Dark Caramel vs. 
Munich malts?  Dry vs. full bodied?  Also, I find it interesting that these 
styles are being released in the Summer, vs the Fall or Winter when a rich 
lager might be more appreciated.

Chas Peterson
Laytonsville, Md

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:03:58 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Opening Frozen beer, etc.,

Brewsters:

I appreciate all the explanations given in an attempt to explain
 why frozen beer is explosively fizzy when it is opened. However,
  I suggest we all use a little restraint and perhaps
 "in my opinion" or similar comment  when offering speculative
 explanations for  physio-chemical phenomena.

 Even though you are sure you are absolutely correct.

My opinions and comments follow:

Adam Dreyer's explanation of phase diagrams, while true
 for water ( which is opposite BTW from most substances)
relating it to beer may have been a result of  spending too
 much time thinking and not enough time drinking as he says:

>"The beer turning ice is a simple chemistry problem that I have =

>contemplated on several weekend nights in college when the beer was =

>left in the freezer for a little too long. "

>You can apply this to your beer now.  The beer was at a higher pressure =

>that 1 atmosphere so its freezing temperature is lower that at ambient =

>pressure.  The temperature of the beer was lower that the freezing =

>temperature at ambient pressure. =


Perhaps, but only marginally so, maybe a few tenths of a degree at the
 most To get ice to melt at temperatures below 0C requires several
 atmospheres, which is why your ice skates are such thin blades to
 produce such a high pressure ( your weight/square inches of blade
 in contact with the ice you figure it out), giving liquid water on which=

 you slide ( not the ice itself).  The colder the ice, the more pressure
 you need to apply.

>So, when you open the beer, the pressure when to 1 atm, the water in =

>the beer froze and the alcohol did not.

Unlikely to be significantly true at 4% alcohol or less, although "Ice"
 beers can be made in this fashion with extremely sophisticated
 temperature control, usually starting at a higher alcohol concentration.=

 My really old dentist used to tell me about making apple jack by
 this method, but I doubt it was very efficient.

>  Also, the CO2 originally in =

>solution now is forced out causing your beer to foam and spray out. =


This is true and the cause of the spraying.  Water crystallizes and
 this forces water molecules into a regular pattern and takes them
 away from the hydrogen bonded solvent sheath around the CO2
 dipoles.  Ergo the CO2 is not soluble in ice to any great extent =

 - at least not to 2-3 atms.

>Now, the liquid could be collected sure.  You actually are making ice =

>beer since it is now of higher alcohol content.

Theoretically true, if you have really excellent temperature control
 at just around 0C, but otherwise not likely. Entropy wins out again.

>But that may still be worth the effort.

It is much easier to make a beer with  a higher OG to get a higher
 alcohol content.  Why fool around with a process that is
 theoretically as illegal as distillation, when you could have
 what you want more easily?. =


Sorry, but Ken Shramm's explanation while =

 It is really very imaginative, shows he took Chemistry and Physics,
 but it is absolutely incorrect.

Ken says:
>As Far As the frozen beer question, The beer was in a "super cooled"
>state.  The beer is below its freezing point at standard T & P, but
>the C02 pressure keeps it liquid.

Absolutely not true.  Calculate the molality of CO2 at 2 atm and you
 will see that the freezing point depression is very small.
  Mw CO2 is 48 gmw.  2 atm is only  1/12 of a mole ( 2/22.4)
 or 0.1 molar CO2.  Freezing point depression for water is 1.86 F
 per mole of particles per 1000 grams of water.  So the freezing
 point depression caused by the CO2 is only a few tenths of a
 degree.   A similar calculation at say 5% alcohol shows that
 50 grams of alcohol per 1000 grams of solvent is 50/ Mw ethanol
 =3D 50/ 46 =3D 1 Molal so the freezing point is depressed only
 about 1.86 degrees by the alcohol in the beer.  Adding in all the
 other dissolved stuff like dextrins, salts, etc. is probably only good
 for a degree or so.  Conclusion?  The freezing point of beer - even
 in a carbonated state- is only a few degrees below that of water =


>  The solubility of the gas in the
>VERY cold beer is higher than in warm beer.

True

  When you open the
>bottle, the CO2 rushes out (There's going to be a pressure
>drop...Jimmy Cliff), the beer chills even further (the CO2 escape is
>exothermic)

CO2 gas at high pressure through a pinhole, yes. =

 Through a normal hole - unnoticeable, especially
 at only a few atmospheres and a small volume of gas.


> and the water in the beer freezes immediately, zipping
>through the 32 degree state change barrier in a matter of
>milliseconds. This will work with pop, too.

Remember - this "state change barrier"
 ( I assume you mean freezing) releases heat in going
 from water to ice. =


>The Alcohol, having a much lower freezing point, goes blasting out
>with the gas in the gush,

Why doesn't it go blasting out with a gush when you open any beer???

> although that doesn't always happen;
>sometimes the beer just freezes into a slush of frozen water and
>liquid alcohol.

Only very rarely in uncontrolled conditions.  Formation of slush does
 happen occasionally and I have experienced it from time to time
 when all the temperature conditions were correct.  I suspect the
 real cause is that the water is below its freezing point and is in a
 supercooled state ( because it is cold - nothing to do with dissolved
 gas) it is quasi stable because there are no sites in the very clean
 new bottle on which to begin crystallization.  The release of the gas
 forms bubbles which act as a catalyst for the formation of ice crystals.=

As Ken points out it has nothing to do with alcohol in the beer as it
happens with soda pop as well

> The rush of gas takes all of the gas soluble esters
>and aroma compounds with it.

Yeah, just like it does when you open any bottle of beer - right ?? Hardl=
y.
 =


Remember these are my opinions.
- ------------------------------------------


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:29:52 -0400
From: "Kerr, David" <David.Kerr at ummc.ummed.edu>
Subject: Phil's Phalse bottom

Dave Thomson wrote:
>I ended up buying a Phils Phase...
> the bottom tends to float up in the process. 

I mash in an old Igloo cooler and transfer to an insulated Phil's
mash/lauter  tun.  I add about 1/2 gal 170F water to the bottom of the
lauter tun before transferring the mash, and I also hold the false
bottom down with my brew paddle until I've transferred about 2 gallons
of mash to the tun.  It works well.

Dave Kerr  "Be good and you will be lonely" - Mark Twain




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 09:49:35 -0400
From: Jerry Cunningham <gcunning at census.gov>
Subject: Outbreak Ale

Hey there,

I have a beer in the secondary that's obviously infected - it doesn't
taste that bad at the moment, but it's all downhill from here if I don't
do anything. Is there any way to kill these critters before they turn my
drinkable, slightly phenolic, honey ale into undrinkable swill? Or do I
just drink fast? Can I hold the brew at an elevated temp for a while, or
does that drive off the alcohol (bad thing)?


Thanks for any help,

Jerry Cunningham
Annapolis, MD


ps I've been off of the list for a few months, it's good to see that the
botulism thread is alive and well! ;*)

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 10:32:48 -0400
From: Larry Johnson <maltster at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: aluminum pots

LNUSTRUK.CZLSSB at gmeds.com asks:

>1). Aside from reacting with some cleaning products, is there any good reason
>why I should avoid a Aluminum brewpot? I located a comercial grade 24qt
pot at
>Gordon Food Service, a resaurant supply store for about $70. I'd welcome any
>input.

Only that it sounds a little high.  I bought my 10-gallon restaurant grade
aluminum Vollrath from a restaurant supply house here in Athens, GA for
$56.  And they're not known for their cheap prices (being the only such
place in town).

And no, the aluminum doesn't affect the taste of my beer and it hasn't
given me Alzheimer's.  My wife claims, however, that I've had Halfzheimer's
for years (that's where you forget only about half of everything you're
supposed to remember).

Larry Johnson  -  Athens, GA
maltster at ix.netcom.com
http://www.netcom.com/~maltster

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:51:20 -0400
From: "Larry F. Byard" <lbyard at gwi.net>
Subject: RE: On Botulism

I have been reading the thread on botulism for a long time.  One =
question keeps coming to my mind.  If botulism is possible when canning =
wort, why are we not at risk during the time that wort sits in a =
fermenter waiting for the yeast to lower the Ph?  I would think that the =
risk would be even higher.  Larry

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:09:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: SCRIT at aol.com
Subject: Removing Corona Painted labels

I have a couple of cases of  Corona  7 oz bottles  I want to use for bottling
a 
Barley wine.    Does anyone know how to remove the painted Corona labels 
from the bottle.  Chemicals, bead blasting, hammer and chisel, or should I
soak
the bottles in Caustic Budweiser to remove the paint?

Thanks in advance,   Joe.

scrit at aol.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 11:21:29 -0400
From: Larry Johnson <maltster at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Genny Cream Ale / exploding beer cups

Charlie asks:

>Is anyone familiar with "Jenny Cream ale"(I think the brewery is Jenny
>Brewering Co.;NY)I really like it, and would like to approach the taste.On
>the bottle it says we use a special two level fermenting process to get a
>brew with the flavor of an ale with the smoothness of a lager.Is anyone
>familiar with this two level fermentation process,or have any idea how it is
>accomplished.

This is Genesee Cream Ale.  I don't have anything right in front of me for
verification, but I would assume (usually a bad move) that it's by Genesee
Brewing of NY.  Yes, a cream ale is brewed with a combination of top and
bottom fermenting yeasts.  Wyeast even has a Cream Ale yeast mix in their
line-up.  I've never brewed one so I can't help you there.

Then, John Myers (<JMyers at polkaudio.com>) has a story of beer jumping out
of the cup in Baltimore.  OK, I'll bite.  My theory is that the cup bottoms
were deformed in the downward direction (convex if seen from below the
cup), maybe from sitting out in the hot sun.  When John (and others) tilted
the cup towards their mouths, the cup bottom "popped" back into shape (
concave if seen from below the cup) and this is what shot the beer into
John's mouth and face.  It could also explain the stinging sensation he got
on his lips (like being popped by a rubber band, he said) as the vibrations
from the bottom "popping" went through the cup to his mouth.  I predict
these cups will become very popular at fraternity keg parties here in
Athens.  (Anything to get the beer from the keg to the mouth in less time.)


Larry Johnson  -  Athens, GA
maltster at ix.netcom.com
http://www.netcom.com/~maltster

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 11:43:01 -0700
From: Dan Wieleba <wieleba at pce.net>
Subject: Ideas

I recieved a Muntons old ale kit as part of a prize.  It's 6.6 lbs of
hopped (40-50 ibu's the can claims) syrup.  Since I am an all grainer I
would like to hear others ideas on what to make with this kit, I was
thinking of using it towards a barley wine of imperial stout, making up
the rest of the fermentables with pale and speciality malts.  Let me
know what ya think.
Dan
- -- 
http://www.pce.net/wieleba/beerlink.htm

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 10:54:56 -0500
From: Mike Uchima <uchima at mcs.net>
Subject: Re: Iodophor-stained hoses

Bill Marks <bill_marks at ids.net> said:
> 
> I, like everybody else who has ever used the stuff, have had my plastic
> tubing stained by iodophor.  Since the staining is from the iodine content
> it would seem that the stained hoses would be less prone to growing critters
> due to the now imbeded antiseptic qualities of the iodine.  True?
>
> I don't suggest that maintaining strict santization of the tubing isn't
> necessary, I am just trying to convince my self no to throw out tubing that
> has become stained.  Sowhatdayathink?

My normal cleanup procedure for plastic tubing is to rinse well with hot
water, fill with Iodophor solution, let sit overnight, then drain.
Sometimes (er, frequently :-)) I forget, and leave it sitting with the
Iodophor in it for a couple of days or more. As a result, most of my
tubing is fairly dark.

Neither I (nor anybody else who has tasted my beers) have noticed any
off flavors from the iodine, and I've used the same set of
racking/bottling hoses for something like 50 batches now, with no
infections. I don't know for sure whether the iodine in the walls of the
tubing actually helps prevent growth of microbes or not, but I'm a firm
believer of "if it ain't broke..."

- -- 
== Mike Uchima == uchima at mcs.net ==


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:18:43 -0400
From: "Richard Cuff" <rdcuff at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Botulism - Other Resources

FWIW, I found a tidy online summary about botulism at
http://aac.msstate.edu/pubs/is734.htm courtesy of Mississippi State
University.  

Richard Cuff
Lutherville, MD

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 7 Jul 97 18:19:38 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at msn.com>
Subject: Cream Ales

  Hello to all, Tom asks,

>Now, on to a question:  What makes cream ale cream ale?  I heard >somewhere
>(can't remember where) that you use both ale and lager yeast.  This could
>be the "special 2 step fermentation" you referred to.  How is it done?

 Jackson says that Genesee Cream Ale is a blend of their 12-Horse Ale, and 
their regular lager beer. Little Kings Cream Ale is made from a bottom 
fermenting
yeast strain. I have experimented with different ways to get the ale/lager 
effect.
I used to start the wort with Canadian Ale yeast for 3 days, then rack into 
another 
carboy with Danish Lager yeast and drop it down to lager temps. It worked 
well.
Last winter I made a couple of batches using only California Common yeast,
fermenting for 5 days at 62f and then taking it down to 50f in the secondary 
for a 
couple weeks, and lagering for a month at 34f. I was very happy with the 
results, 
and will most likely not go back to the two yeast version. I plan to try the 
same
recipe/schedule using an Alt yeast this fall. This is a fun style to play 
with, and you
can usually get your Bud drinking friends to try it. 

Ray Estrella   Cottage Grove   MN
ray-estrella at msn.com

    *******Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew.*******


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:18:19 -0700
From: RANDY ERICKSON <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: Report on FiveStar Products Trial

Back in the middle of May, there was a post from the FiveStar Products
Co. stating that they were considering getting into the homebrew market
with their cleaning and sanitizing supplies, and asking for volunteers to
try our some of their products.  I had read glowing appraisals of
FiveStar's Powered Brewery Wash (PBW) from Dr. Fix, Jethro, and Dion,
so I jumped at the chance to volunteer.  From the email header, it appears
that there were about twenty-five of us.

About a week later, I received the samples by UPS, a very generous
supply.  It included one pound each of PBW and Chlorinated Manual
Cleaner (CMC), and one pint of Saniclean Acid Anionic final rinse.  

There was also a detailed set of instructions with a brief treatise on the
importance of sanitation.  One set of instructions covered PBW and
Saniclean, while the other covered all three products.  The PBW is meant
as a clean-in-place (just let it soak) cleaner, while CMC is meant to be
used like a detergent.  FiveStar was also looking for opinions on whether
CMC was necessary, or if PBW could be used alone.

I don't have a chemical background and the labels didn't list ingredients or
precautions, so I don't have any more details that what I have listed.  If
FiveStar intends to sell their products in California, they are going to need
bigger labels  ;-)

Here are my responses to the questionnaire:

*****
About These Products...
1.  Did the products you were given work for their intended uses?  

Saniclean Acid Anionic final rinse:
Seems to work fine, some foaming.   No strong odor, unlike iodophor.   I
particularly liked the short contact times.

CMC:
Works great.  Nice foaming action, boiling kettle residue wiped right off. 
Didn't do much for scorched extract, at least with a limited soak time. 
Used CMC on primary carboy.  Barely had to brush at all, with no
soaking.  Residue practically dissolved.  

PBW:
I like this stuff!  Fantastic no-scrub, soak-only cleaner for hoses, small
parts, wort chiller, kegs, etc.  Even took the green stains off my nylon
hop bag in minutes!  Not perfect on scorched extract -- overnight soak,
but much more aggressive than b-brite, etc., but removed about half. 
Tried overnight soak at 8 oz per gallon strength recommended on
Five-Star's website -- removed about 75% of carbon.  PBW works very
well for manual cleaning too, if you don't want to wait out the
recommended soak time.

Did you find any other uses not mentioned that they were effective for?  
Both CMC and PBW worked great for removing labels from beer bottles. 
CMC works well on skillets, too. 

2.  When using the products you were given, how close did you stick to
the instructions included with the products? 
Since I was evaluating new products, I stuck to the instructions very
closely (which is rare for me, I usually just eyeball cleaner and sanitizer).

3.  Were the recommended portions of each product effective and
appropriate?  Yes.  
If not, how much of each product did you use for each product?  

4.  Were the instructions easy to read, easy to follow, and generally
useful?  
The instructions were very useful and appropriate.  The Rules for
Sanitation section was particularly good, and caused me to rethink some
of my own procedures.

5. When considering cleaning instructions, are you interested in going
into the details of the importance of cleaning and sanitizing, or would you
prefer a quick, short set of instructions?  
I think the details are very valuable and should be included along with the
product (perhaps on a flyer, plastic reference card, etc.).  With the
intended audience of homebrewers, you never know what level of
expertise your potential customer may have.  Some of the most
successful beer ingredient kits come with a multi-page instruction set
that assumes that the customer may not know anything about brewing.

Would including both a detailed set of instructions, as well as a quick,
short version add value to the kit for you? 
I would like to the detailed instruction I received be included with the
products, with the essential information printed on the container, i.e.
recommended concentrations and precautions.  My only complaint with
the products I tested was that there was absolutely no safety
information or ingredients lists included with the chemicals.  I'm sure your
legal staff is working on this, presuming you plan to do business in
California.  ;-)

6.  Which kit worked better for you and better suited your purposes: 
PBW/Saniclean/CMC, or PBW/Saniclean? 
____________________________  Why?  
I did not have a clear preference.  I liked the "feel" of the CMC, and its
foaming action, but PBW would probably work just as well as an
all-purpose cleaner.

*****

I have snipped the rest of the questions that dealt with marketing type
issues (i.e. if these products resulted in better beer, how much would
you be willing to pay?).  It also appears that FiveStar is considering
packaging these products in a kit for sale to homebrewers.  I expressed
my opinion that it would be better to sell them separately to allow for
differences in procedures and consumption rates.

In summary, I was very impressed with these products and would buy
them if they are ever made available to us at a reasonable price.  As
was reported here before, that PBW is great stuff!

FiveStar has a website at http://www.fivestarAF.com/

I have no affiliation with this company.  To paraphrase Dave Draper
(quoting one of the Jeffs, I believe) -- "I can't be bought for a mere two
pounds and a pint."

Cheers -- Randy in Modesto

Randy Erickson
Modesto, California
randye at mid.org

Stanislaus Hoppy Cappers
c/o Barley & Wine, Ceres, CA

"Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of
Congress.  But I repeat myself." -- Mark Twain



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 12:47:49 -0700
From: "Grant W. Knechtel" <GWK at hartcrowser.com>
Subject: My Dogs Plus/insecticides/fertilizers

Brad : what is in a My Brew lemonade kit? I've never seen it in our corner.

Insecticides:  Not from any particular knowledge base, I'm worried about home
use of insecticides on hop plants.  Just because insecticides are approved for
use on home vegetable crops (which should be washed before consumption) doesn't
mean they're OK on hops which not only won't be washed but will be boiled, or
dry hopped with alcohol as well as water available as solvent.  And I'd still be
uncomfortable if the manufacturers or even the FDA said it was OK.  Neither have
an enviable record where consumer protection is concerned.  You have to make
your own decision, but I'd be inclined toward the organic (blendered beetles) or
introduced "natural" control (such as Bacillus thuringiensis) mentioned earlier
in this thread.

Fertilizers: And if the previous paranoia isn't enough, our local paper, The
Seattle Times, had a feature this weekend about fertilizer manufacturing.  It
seems that if a material has fertilizing value, Federal regulations allow its
sale as fertilizer, regardless of overall content.  "It goes into the silo as
hazardous waste and comes out fertilizer."  This means slags and various ashes
with *high* content of heavy metals are commonly added to or form the majority
of some fertilizers.  They don't even have to be labeled as to what they
contain.  Heavy metals and some chlorine based compounds are incredibly
persistent in the soil.  Apologies for the paranoia, but I'd like to hear some
input on the significance of this.
 -Grant

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 07 Jul 97 12:12:50 -0800
From: rbarnes at sdccd.cc.ca.us
Subject: Lager pitching temps, phloating phalse bottom


     Regarding the recent question about floating false bottoms, I drilled 
     three holes through the bottom of my 10 gal gott cooler and inserted 
     three 2 1/2" X 1/4" stainless screws. Screws are pushed in from the 
     outside and secured with stainless nuts and washers, holes are drilled 
     in the false bottom to allow it to be placed over the studs and held 
     in place with nuts. Use large diameter washers and food grade (or 
     aquarium grade) silicone sealant and it won't leak. Very little grain 
     gets by since I did this.
     
     With the warmer summer tap water temperatures I'm having trouble 
     getting low output temperatures from my CF chiller. Also, I find that 
     the flow rate is painfully slow (1 1/2 hours to drain 10 gal of wort 
     using 3/8" tubing in my chiller). I have a large false bottom screen 
     in my kettle, but I still get a lot of hop pieces (using whole hops) 
     which partially clogs the chiller. Is anyone using 1/2" tubing in a CF 
     chiller? I suppose you would use 3/4" garden hose with this, but how 
     long would the chiller need to be to work effectively?
     
     I made a Classic American Pilsner yesterday (Sunday). Pitched Wyeast 
     Munich from a previous batch at 80 df (!), put it in the chest freezer 
     at 40 df. Went from 80 df at 2:00 p.m. Sunday to 50 df by 7:00 a.m. 
     Monday. Yeast still seems to be working, I've pitched this yeast at 70 
     df and chilled to 50 df over 24 hours in past batches without any 
     unusual flavors, but I fear that I might end up with off flavors by 
     pitching at 80 and rapidly chilling. Sure starts fast, tho.
     
     Any comments?
     
     Randy in San Diego



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 15:07:12 -0700
From: huskers at cco.net
Subject: Barleywine ect

Hello again,

I just made my second barley wine. What a struggle. I sparged way to
much. I thought I was running slow enough but ended up with 10-12
gallons of sparge. Good news/bad news. I collected 4 gallons of wort
that was about 8 pt.s lower than I wanted for pre boil gravity. Leaving
8 gallons in another kettle needing to be boiled down to 4 gallons! I
should've just called 'uncle', boiled the 4g and make that a barleywine
and make the second runnings a pale ale. But no, I condensed the 8g down
and add the 4g. This took about 15lb of  LP gas and several hours. OG
was 1108 and is bubbling away nicely as I type. How does anyone else do
their bw? My first one was so good I'll put up with all day boils if I
have to.

- ------------------

Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us> subliminally doubts my u% curve:

> On Jason Hennings Hoppy beer (July 3 posting):
> I have a feeling that by getting all your IBU's in the last 20 minutes of
> the boil, the "perceived" bitterness is going to be much higher than the
> IBU's would suggest, due to an overpowering hop flavor.  Please keep us
> posted as to the taste profile after, say, one week and then maybe four weeks.

If my u% are reasonable, it shouldn't matter. Especially since I'm
cutting all (most) of the dry hop additions to more acurately reflect
the late addition contributions. Also thinking of sparging 14g, spliting
in to two boils, one as mentioned and a more traditional schedule
(equall IBUs). 

Cheers,
Jason Henning (huskers at cco.net)
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Olympia, WA - "It's the Water"


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 15:56:22 -0400
From: Chris Dodge <cdodge at ptc.com>
Subject: Blue Moon Belgian Wit

I just had Blue Moon's Belgian Wheet this week and loved
the taste.

Has anyone else tried this beer and if so does anyone
have a recipe which may come close to duplicating it.

Thanks
Chris Dodge

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 17:49:25 +0000
From: "Robert Marshall" <robertjm at hooked.net>
Subject: The Brewery now at realbeer.com??

Have I been in a time warp, or something? I went to 
alpha.rollanet.org, got the form with all the link buttons, but 
everytime I follow it, it tells me that page has moved to 
realbeer.com/...

When did this happen? It seems that only a couple of weeks ago the 
links were there at alpa.rollanet.org. If it did change, why didn't 
they change the map too?

Later,


Robert Marshall
robertjm at hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/users/robertjm/beerbook.htm
- ------
"They who drink beer will think beer."
     Washington Irving - (1783-1859)

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:20:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: tally of juggling brewers

The results are in. Eleven homebrewers who read the digest admit to juggling
for fun or exercise. Some juggle while sparging. One juggles with his spouse.
Two juggle and do magic or sleight of hand. We [collectively] juggle, or
throw, 
clubs, tennis balls, hockey pucks, basketballs, bean bags, lacrosse balls,
beer bottles, and more. I think it makes us better brewers, I know it makes
us fun at parties.
Thanks for the replies- Alan Talman

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:41:11 -0004
From: "DPC Michael E. Sandell" <sandellme at nassau.navy.mil>
Subject: Cream Stout Extract Recipe

I am in search of a clone for Caffery's Cream Stout.  I drank it in 
Italy and Spain.  It is one of the best that I have had.  Does anyone 
have a "clone" for this?  Thanks.

Michael
"Brewmeister in Training"

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:42:57 -0004
From: "DPC Michael E. Sandell" <sandellme at nassau.navy.mil>
Subject: Homebrew in Pennsylvania

Hello All,
I am considering retirement in PA.  The AOB web pags says that it is 
not legal to homebrew there, there are however homebrew supply 
stores!  Does anyone have the facts on the legality of homebrewing in 
PA?  Thanks for the assistance.

Michael
"Brewmeister in Training"


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 18:54:46 -0700
From: Jason Henning <huskers at cco.net>
Subject: Pre-chiller

Hello friends,

Val Lipscomb <valjay at NetXpress.com> pondering pre-chiller tubing size 
says:

> ... so I'll try pre-chilling the water goin to the CF. The 
> question is,what OD soft copper would give me the most "bang
> for the buck"?? I'll immerse the coil in a 36 quart Igloo cooler
> filled with ice and water and should hope to get at least a 10-15
> degree drop in water temp.   FWIW,the chiller is 3/8 OD copper ...

I would set up the c/c (coil and cooler) chiller with 3/8" copper. 
Instead of pre-chilling the c-f chiller water, why not 'post-chill' the 
wort? That is, why not put the c/c chiller after ther c-f chiller? That 
way you'd be cooling 82F wort more directly and efficently. I'm going to 
give it a try, maybe I can save some water in the process.

[Same day several hours later] I've filled my 5g Gott with 85F water. 
Wound 15' of 3/8 copper around a keg and shaped the coil in to a 
playmate cooler. About 1/2 full of ice and topped up with water. Should 
have made the coil smaller, they stick out of the water some. Oh well, 
it's just a rough experiment. I finished connecting the racking cane and 
tubing. 

First I filled a gallon jug. It took 2 minutes 3 seconds, that's on par 
with my c-f rate. The water temp was right at 70F, 15d drop, not bad,
not 
bad at all. Second run, dumped the jug and did it again, this time
rocking 
the coil now and then so as to exchange the heat better. Temperature 
dropped to 58F. I'm convinced.

I don't have much of a problem running my c-f wide open. I get temps 
around 70F. But I could use my c/c chiller to get a lager down to 50F. I 
would rewrap my coil so all of it's under water. Carefully measure ice 
and water and note them. Let it run wide open for the full 5 gallons and 
note temperature. Adjusting ice and water ratios, I should be able to 
dial in the temp in pretty close after a couple batches.

Cheers,
Jason Henning (huskers at cco.net)
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Olympia, WA - "It's the Water"


Return to table of contents

---