---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  stout systematics (DAVE SAPSIS)
  Re: Foreign Stout viable style? (Jacques Bourdouxhe)
  Grain Mills? ("Rick Creighton")
  pH problems ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  pH problem more info ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  Extraction Troubleshooting ("Rick Creighton")
  Color Guide? ("Rick Creighton")
  Big Bubbles v. Tight Bubbles CO2 (Racso Lesiam IV)
  Re:  Tropical Climate Ale Fermenting (BernardCh)
  Specific G. convertion to Plato? (Troy Hojel)
  Jethro on DWC, Eisbock-A Botulism Free Report ("Rob Moline")
  LP Gas and Burner Questions (mike hoag )
  BTUs 'n' BATF (Samuel Mize)
  Botulator ("Steven W. Smith")
  Question about EDME Brewcraft kegs (Veryanoid)
  keg baggage ("Bryan L. Gros")
  mini-keg w/ Brew King tap ... first impressions (Jim Graham)
  more on labels (Mark Tumarkin)
  Labels again ("David Augsburger")
  label again ("David Augsburger")
  Malta Test-Drive (KennyEddy)
  De Wolf-Cosyns bait-and-switcheroo ("Grant W. Knechtel")
  197 Dixie Cup Homebrew Competition & "fair" contests (Sean Lamb)
  RE: Eisbock - The BATF has spoken... (Volker R. Quante)
  Bob Klein's Book (Brad Kazmer)
  Follow-up to the burners thread (AJN)
  RE: Best Temperature Controller ("Sornborger, Nathan")
  Honey Brown ("John Penn")
  removing goo from kegs ("Curt Abert")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:25:31 -0700
From: DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov (DAVE SAPSIS)
Subject: stout systematics

     Dave in Dallas (hi Dave!) wonders about the utility and necessity of 
     the Foreign Stout classification, and postulates that other existing 
     styles cover the range.  I have often wondered about the distinctions 
     amongst black ales myself, particularly distinguishing very robust 
     porters from stouts, but I do feel that the Foreign style is unique.
     Let us look a little more closely at what we have:
     
     
     Irish style dry stout: roughly 10 Plato, assertively bitter, and bone 
     dry.  Usually creamy texture due to viscosity and method of dispense.
     
     Sweet stout: 11-12 plato, full body low hopping, rich finish.
     
     Oatmeal Stout: often somewhat of a hybrid between the two above, but 
     to higher gravity.
     
     Imperial Stout: big, vinous, and black; ostensibly a black barleywine.
     
     Now let us look at a number of beers out there on the market and try 
     to place them into one of the above:
     
     Sierra Nevada -- 16 plato, assertively bitter and dry.   To my mind, 
     this is close to bottled Guinness Extra, but drier and stronger.  
     Possibly a North American Variant of dry stout, as many brewers are 
     making basically a dry stout but to 15-18 plato.
     
     Anderson Valley Barney Flats oatmeal-- like above but considerably 
     richer and fuller, with an off dry finish.  This seems rather like:
     
     ABC, Guinness in Oz, and Dragon (which is on the sweeter side), which 
     to me are the archetypes of the Foreign style.  I would also put 
     Cooper's Stout (and Grants Imperial as well) in this grouping.  The 
     are uniformly rich and full bodied with noticeable ETOH, all finish 
     with an off-dry character with hints of roastiness, chocolate, and 
     soy. 
     
     It seems that the Stout family spans a big range of strength, 
     sweet/dry balance, bitterness, conditioning, etc.  Some of the beers 
     mentioned are certainly similar, and I for one, have no real need to 
     distinguish to too fine a detail.  However, we should recognize that 
     the moniker of Stout spans such a range, and that what we call it 
     *can* help match expectations with perceptions.

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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:35:13 -0400
From: bourdouj at ERE.UMontreal.CA (Jacques Bourdouxhe)
Subject: Re: Foreign Stout viable style?

Hi braumeisters,

Dave in Dallas wants to kill the Foreign Stout style. Please Dave, don't do
that, Foreign extra stout must live just because the only medal that I won
in a homebrew competition was with a ... Foreign Extra Stout.
I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong, but Foreign Stout was a stout
brewed with a stronger O.G. to avoid being contaminated by.. botulism.

Dave, I have a title for your next post: India Pale Ale -- viable style?

Jacques in Montreal

*************************************************
* Oh beer! O Hodgson, Guinness, Allsop, Bass!   *
* Names that should be on every infant's tongue *
* ( Charles Stuart Calverley )                  *
*************************************************



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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 97 11:44:16 EST
From: "Rick Creighton" <rcreighton at smtpinet.aspensys.com>
Subject: Grain Mills?

I'm thinking about buying a grain mill, because my brewing has reached the point
where I may start buying grain in bulk. I have pretty much narrowed it down to 2
mills, the "Valley" and the adjustable "Schmidling", due to their massive 
throughput, crush quality, and guarantees. I have used both (in stores) and like
them both, but I'm having a bit of a time making up my mind.

The only drawback I can see to the Schmidling is that it doesn't have true 
"parallel indexed" rollers (but the Valley does). However, the Valley is sort 
ofawkward in it's construction, being very tall. They both are easy to 
motorize. and both have nice long, high-leverage handles, and good sturdy 
bearings. And they both crush pretty good on "standard" settings.

So does anyone have any more advanced experience with either of these mills? Any
pointers, research, or opinions? (Oh, yeah, I've already pretty much memorized 
the Zymurgy issue on mills from a couple of years ago!)

- --Rick Creighton


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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:10:20 -0400
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at avery.med.virginia.edu>
Subject: pH problems

The pH of my tap water is 5.0 Is there anything I can do to get
it into the proper range for brewing?
Thanks
Rick Pauly
Charlottesville,VA

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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:51:08 -0400
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at avery.med.virginia.edu>
Subject: pH problem more info

I asked about how to raise my tap water pH from 5.0 to the proper
level for brewing but I should have said mashing, sorry,
Rick

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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 97 13:06:23 EST
From: "Rick Creighton" <rcreighton at smtpinet.aspensys.com>
Subject: Extraction Troubleshooting

First off, I'd like to thank everyone who responded (Whew, that was FAST!!!),
and the verdict seems to be in, even if the info I gave was a little sparse.

>From what everyone is saying I am probably having one of 2 problems:

1) my hydrometer or thermometer are mis-calibrated (which is entirely 
possible, considering that they are both more than 3 years old, and were
 inexpensive, beginners-grade pieces at that...) and causing problems with
boils, mashing, sparging, etc...

or 2) this is simply the nature of my setup (which many of y'all seem to 
also be using!) and the "fix" is to just use more grain (which IMO isn't 
really a solution, just a band-aid!)

So I guess I need to start by checking the calibration of my instruments, 
which I will do as soon as I get them back (I left them at my friend's house, 
because I had to take the "metro" home, and couldn't carry all my brew gear).

However, since it seems that an aweful lot of y'all have this same problem
(although not to this extent!) I'm going to give more intimate details of 
the process of my last batch (the one that read 30 degrees off!). If we put our 
minds to this system, we SURELY can find a better solution to the extraction 
deficiencies than just throwing more malt into our mash. Ther just HAS to be a 
way to better optimise this system...

I used the "Smoked Porter" recipe from a recent Zymurgy. Grain schedule 
was thus (just under 8 lbs total malt):

    6.5 lbs Halcyon 2-row British malt
    0.5 lbs black malt
    0.5 lbs roasted malt
    0.5 lbs crystal malt
    6oz Scottish peat-smoked malt

(All malt was crushed in a motorized Valley mill, with "standard" spacing.)

I use 3 brew pots (inexpensive ones from Caldor or Ames):

    (1) 5 gallon stainless steel 
    (2) 4 gallon stainless steel 

This particular batch was made on an electric range (which I HATE! 
Why doesn't anyone put gas stoves in their homes anymore?!?)

I put all the grain in the pot at once, with enough hot water to cover the 
grain (I had brought about 2 gallons up to 200F in another pot for topping 
it off, and already had 1 gallon in the mash pot, which I poured the grain 
into) I stabilized the mash between 150F and 160F (by my thermometer) and 
held it there for 1.5 hours.

While this was mashing, I used my other 2 brewpots to bringa total of 
4 gallons of water to boil (fpr sparging), then stabilized the sparge 
water at 170F.

When my mash was ready (by the clock) I scooped a few ladles of grain into 
the Igloo-Tun (to be sure that the Phalse bottom was segure and weighted down) 
and then carefully poured th rest of the mash into the Igloo. I put 2 gallons 
of 170F water in teh "top" tank (which is uninsulated plastic) and began 
trickling water throught my "Phils" sparging arm. Rate of throughput was 
about 1 gallon/15 minutes. We ran off about 6.5 gallons (ran it until the 
runoff was like a light nut-brown ale) split between 3 brewpots, then set 
them to boil. I broght them all three to a gentle boil, threw in Perle hops 
pellets, and let them go for 1.5 hours. 15 minutes before the end of boil, 
I threw in a few pinches of Irish moss.

The whole mess boiled down to almost exactly 5 gallons, which I poured 
into my 6.5 gallon priming bucket, and threw in my submersion wort chiller 
(which I had just added a prechiller coil!), and believe it or not, we 
brought the whole batch down to 80F in under 7 minutes!!!

I sprayed it into my cargboy, via a standard racking hose with one of 
those sprayer/aerator attachments, and took an OG reading. It said 1.023. 
The recipe said it should be around 1.052...

We tasted the sample from the hydrometer jar and it tasted GREAT 
(for "baby" beer!) It has a VERY porter-like flavor and a nice medium 
body mouthfeel. This was at about 4am (we got a late start!). We pitched 
a packet of Wyeast 1968 London Special Ale (started about 8 hours earlier). 
By lunchtime the next day it was foaming happily away...

We'll see in a few weeks how it turns out. I'll keep y'all posted...
Thanks for all the direct-mail responses!!

- --Richard Creighton


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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 97 13:10:01 EST
From: "Rick Creighton" <rcreighton at smtpinet.aspensys.com>
Subject: Color Guide?


Does ANYONE know where I can get a few of the "Davison Homebrew Color 
Guide cards? I have called just about every brew store in the 
Washington DC area, and no one has them, or even knows where 
to get them.

I'm going to be judging at a big SCA event (Society for Creative Anachronism, 
a medieval historical re-enactment group) next week and I would like to have 
one for myself, and a few to lend/give/sell to the other judges...

- --Richard Creighton


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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 10:28:19 -0700
From: Racso Lesiam IV <dhcous at pacbell.net>
Subject: Big Bubbles v. Tight Bubbles CO2

I've expermented with a 12-gallon batch of German Pils split between 2,
10-gallon corny keg/fermenters.  Both kegs were fermented in the same
controlled temperature environment (48 F fridge).  One keg was allowed
to ferment freely (with a blow-off tube)  to the desired terminal
gravity.  The other keg was fermented freely to a point, then it  was
sealed with a 15 psi pressure relief valve and allowed to naturally
carbonate to the same desired terminal gravity.   Once fully fermented,
both kegs were transfered to smaller 5-gallon korny kegs.  The keg that
wasn't allowed to naturally carbonate was forced carbonated at 30 psi
for 1.5 days and 35 F.  Through subjective tastings, both kegs appeared
to have the same level of carbonation (concentration of dissolved gas).
However, the keg that was naturally carbonated has finer, smaller
bubbles, while the keg that was forced carbonated had larger, cruder
bubbles by comparison.  I've repeated this experiment a couple times
with similar results.  I'm convinced there is a difference (partical
physics?).  If you're not convinced, talk to a wine aficionado.  Similar
results are well known, documented, and completely  accepted in the
sparkeling wine/Champagne industry.  Bulk or Charmot method Champagne
(Totts, Cooks, etc.) which is forced carbonated, has large, crude
bubbles.  Higher quality, naturally carbonated Champagne (Method
Champagnoir, [spelling?]: bottle conditioned), has small, refined
bubbles.  Wine insiders tell me this is due to the carbonation
technique, not factors such as grape quality.   I think we can learn
something from our wine friends here.

Racso


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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:30:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: BernardCh at aol.com
Subject: Re:  Tropical Climate Ale Fermenting

Capt. Battreall asks in HDB 2478 about maintaining temps for fermentation by
placing his carboy in a 10 gallon Igloo/Gott Style cooler.

>I place my
>6 gallon glass carboy into the cooler and fill the cooler with water
>to the level of about where the wort comes. Then, I wrap a cloth towel
>around the top of carboy just enough that it still touches the top of
>thewater so it stays soaked and provides evaporative cooling. In addition
>to that I drop a cup or two of ice cubes in the water and some I actually
>stick to the wet towel and I have managed to maintain a temp of 58-62 F.

I did just this sort of thing before taking the plunge and buying that chest
freezer.  I made a new lid out of 3/4 plywood (about a 14 inch diameter
circle) and cut a 2 - 3 inch hole in the center where the airlock would come
though.  Next screw a few small wood screws to the underside of the plywood
lid (you'll see why later).  Go to your local Home (its always on the other
side of the store) Depot or other such place and buy a can of the expanding
foam insualtion called "Great Stuff."  Place and center-up the carboy in you
cooler then place a plastic drop cloth over the carboy and kinda form it to
the carboy (dont worry about the carboy opening for now, just sick a stopper
in it)  Make sure the plastic hangs over the edge of the cooler about a foot
all the way around.  Spray the foam insulation in the depressed area around
the carboy and then place the plywood lid with the screws down over the still
wet foam  (the wood screws act as anchors to keep the foam attached to the
lid).  This stuff expands a lot so you might want to experiment wih its
"expansion rate" before squirting on top of your carboy.  Place a concrete
block or other weight on top of the plywood and let the foam harden
overnight.

The next day lift the lid out of the cooler, pull the plastic off, trim the
foam up around the center hole and presto, you've got and insulated form
fitting lid where the airlock comes out through the center.

I was able to ferment this way and hold a temperature of about 50 degF with
only about a 4 degree variation.  Just added a tray or two of ice cubes a day
to maintain temperature.  Also draped a big heavy old blanket over the top
(except the airlock) to held with the insulation.   Hitting 58 - 62 should be
a breeze.

Just a note of caution.  Make absolutely sure that the plastic covers all
parts of the cooler otherwise it will stick to the sides of the cooler and
probably ruin your cooler.

Chuck
BernardCh at aol.com
Music City Brewers Homebrew Club
Nashville, TN - Music City USA

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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:15:19 -0600
From: Troy Hojel <hojel at flash.net>
Subject: Specific G. convertion to Plato?

Can anyone help me with an *accurate* formula for Specific gravity-
Plato conversions?

In "Brewing" (by Lewis ? Young) there is a conversion table but the
figures are rounded up.  I'm looking for a formula to add to my
spreadsheet.  I appreciate the help.

Troy
- ----------


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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 97 11:03:40 PDT
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at kansas.net>
Subject: Jethro on DWC, Eisbock-A Botulism Free Report

		The Jethro Gump Report
		*A Botulism Free Report*
>From: Keith Busby <kbusby at ou.edu>
>Subject: De Wolf-Cosyns
>A homebrew supplier I talked with recently has stopped selling DWC malt
>on the grounds that its quality has become inconsistent recently. Is this a
>widespread view?

	Having used Schreier 2 row, and DWC Specialty malts for the last  2 years
and 7 months, (93,000 lbs), my opinion is no. I love the stuff and plan to
continue using it.

Eisbock-
	Jeff McNally states what I believe to be the real deal. Due to an
currently developing situation, I am unable to find the circular, but BATF
made it very clear in one that  water removed in the form of ice must be
replaced with an equivalent amount of water, later in the process.
	The fact that one, or several BATF agents would give different answers is
no surprise. When going through label approvals, I had varying opinions
stated by different agents, and went through weeks of BS, to be finally
told that we didn't need label approval, 'cos we filled our growlers 'on
demand.' That is, we didn't pre-fill them.  But it is obvious to me that
one can't count on a definitive answer to a question unless they state it
in writing. And then, this is only useful as a defense, should another
agent deem your operation to be in violation.   Remember, the BATF has had
to struggle to keep up with the explosive growth in the industry, using
regulations largely written in the 1930's, and often having to dispatch
agents to breweries whose real expertise is firearms.  Like my cousin
Forrest said, "S**t Happens."

Cheers!
Jethro (I'm Off To See The Wizard) Gump

Rob Moline
Little Apple Brewing Company
Manhattan, Kansas

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"

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Date: Wed,  6 Aug 97 11:43:17 PDT
From: mike hoag <hoagm at homebrew.corp.cubic.com>
Subject: LP Gas and Burner Questions

Good day fellow HBers-

I am currently building a 18 gal two level RIMS and the final detail I 
don't quite have worked out relates to my burner selection.  My boiling 
kettle is 18" in dia.  I looked around at all the available burners and 
have not been satisfied.  I want something that has good flame control 
but gets hot enough to boil quickly without scorching.  I would prefer a 
burner that is larger in diameter than any of the low and high pressure 
burners I have seen so as to more evenly spread the flame. I did contact 
Solarflo - they do have some beautiful large diameter burners - but the 
>$200 price tag scared me away (for now).  Anyway (to make a short story 
long) I came upon the idea of using three six-inch dia. low pressure (34k 
btu) burners in a triangle pattern under my kettle ($15 ea from Metal 
Fusion).  I think this would work, but unfortunately (apparently) I know 
very little about gas flow and pressure.  I will be using a standard 20lb 
LP tank (dedicated to the kettle - I have another one for the hot liquor 
tank) and I need to know what I have to do to properly regulate the 
pressure to the three burners and still get adequate flow.  Will a 
standard low pressure regulator be sufficient?  If so, what size plumbing 
do I need?  If not, do I need a high pressure regulator and reduce 
plumbing size so as to restrict the flow?  How does gas pressure relate 
to btu capacity?  And where does orifice size come into it?

Will the low pressure be more likely to allow Botulism to RUIN MY BEER? 
Or will the high pressure get me in trouble with the BATF because of 
increased evaporation rates (evapobock)?

Any gas experts out there? (not the digestive kind!  ;^)

As usual, private email is fine (I will summarize) unless someone who 
KNOWS about this is willing to give a lesson.

Have a nice day,

Mike

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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:04:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: BTUs 'n' BATF

Greetings,

>From: AJN <neitzkea at frc.com>
>Subject: Is 15000 btu enough?
>
>I have found a single propane burner rated at 15000 btu's for $14.99 US.  
>I would use it on my 12"dia 5gal stock pots for mashing and boiling.
>
>This seams like it would be enough for mashing, but would it be enough for 
>boiling?

Just a burner, or a whole cooker?  It's a good price for a cooker,
about normal (I think) for just the burner.  If it's the whole cooker,
where are you finding it?

The following is boiled (mashed?) from a scan through DejaNews.

Normal stovetop burners are generally in the 8K-13K BTU range.  One
poster noted that his 9K BTU stove burners were inadequate, but his
12K BTU stove burners did the job.  He keeps the pot's lid mostly on
to get a rolling boil.  He didn't note how long it takes.

Anecdotal evidence indicates that electric stove elements heat a pot
better for a given BTU rating.

So, you may get little or no improvement, depending on the design of
your current stove and the design of the propane burner.  If you're
going from an 8K gas stove burner to a 15K propane, you might get
about 1.5 times as much heat into your pot.  If you're going from a
12K electric element, you might be lucky to break even.

The general consensus is that 35K BTU cookers are adequate for 5
gallon batches.  Some people prefer to move up to the 100+ BTU
cookers, especially if brewing batches larger than 5 gallons.

Note that BTU ratings don't measure the heat going into a pot, just
the amount of gas going out of the burner.  Unburned gas and/or poor
design will reduce the heat input you get for a given BTU rating.
There is some discussion that anything above 50-100K BTU is probably
just spewing BTUs past your kettle into the air.

Precision Brewing appears to use lower BTU ratings in their equipment.
I assume their design is using the heat output of the burner more
effectively than a Cajun Cooker does.  (I haven't seen their designs,
but it isn't hard to imagine something more efficient that an open
flame in an open frame.)

Where to get 35K-170K cookers: Home Depot, Wal-Mart and Sam's are
often mentioned.  Also, look in the Yellow Pages under 'Fireplace
Equipment', 'Camping Equipment' and 'Surplus & Salvage' stores.

If you are comfortable doing gas plumbing: "look in the salvage yards
for used Apartment Complex type small stoves....  You should be able
to get one for $10 to $15 -- you would have to do some cleaning
though."

To increase your efficiency: protect the cooker from the wind.  Some
people drape foil over the pot as a shroud -- I believe this is to
reflect heat back into it.  If using a stove, lay foil around (not on)
the burner.

Safety issue: natural gas is lighter than air, and will dissipate (if
there is enough ventilation).  Propane and butane are heavier than
air, and can pool on the floor and/or in low places.
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>From: Scott Dornseif <dornseif at wwa.com>
>Subject: recent issues
>
>HEY!
>
>Will the BATF come and bust down my door if I freeze my canned wort in
>order to concentrate the botulism toxins?
>
>Scott

Only because the AOB has not done anything about it...







- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada
(personal net account)

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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 12:24:21 -0700 (MST)
From: "Steven W. Smith" <SYSSWS at gc.maricopa.edu>
Subject: Botulator

  Howdy, and g'day!  With the dual bugaboos of the B.A.T.F. and
Clostridium Hystericus whirling through my consciousness lo these many 
months, something finally snapped last night: I prepared an eisbock with 
Casual Sanitation! :-O
  I named it Botulator (in deference to y'all) and it's a happy beverage, 
reminiscent of EKU 28 without the body.  Now that I've faced my fears 
I'd like to do it again in a big way, like, multi-gallons in a keg.  I used a 
2-litre PET bottle to freeze in, so the total output was pretty small.  I've 
got a few questions about the process if anyone would be so kind as to share 
some tips.

1,  My "precursor" beer is very similar to Shiner Bock, is a heavier beer
(dopplebock?) more appropriate for this activity?  Would a bigger beer yield
a noticably greater volume of eisbock?

2,  What kind of gadgetry/technique is used to process _gallons_ rather than 
litres?

3,  Is there any need to crush the ice glob before straining, or is it best to 
remove it in a lump? 

4, Light carbonation is appropriate? (y/n)

5, Is there anything worthwhile to be done with the ice portion?

  Any helpful hints other than "watch out for germs and the Feds!" would be 
most appreciated. TTFN.
  _,_/|   Steven W. Smith
  \o.O;   Systems Programmer, but not a Licensed Therapist
 =(___)=  Glendale Community College.  Glendale Az.
    U     syssws at gc.maricopa.edu, staff.gc.maricopa.edu/~ssmith

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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:42:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Veryanoid at aol.com
Subject: Question about EDME Brewcraft kegs

Does any use these? How much priming sugar for 5 gallons?

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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 12:33:21 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: keg baggage

cwynn at sawyer.ndak.net (Craig Wynn) wrote:
>
>Can I get on an a US comercial flt.carrying a 5 gal korny?
>What's going to be asked if I try and check it in as baggage?

Hope this isn't too late.

I've checked kegs before as baggage.  Keep the cover with you 
and show them it is empty.  Worked fine with me.

Sometimes if you see a good deal, you got to grab it.

          - Bryan
            gros at bigfoot.com
            Oakland, CA

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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:46:23 -0600 (CDT)
From: Jim Graham <jim at n5ial.gnt.com>
Subject: mini-keg w/ Brew King tap ... first impressions

Well, before I get into that, let me first thank those who have replied
to my previous post.  I've gotten some good information ... and from what
I can tell, mini-kegs may not be as unpopular as I'd started to think!  :-)

Now, as to my first impressions (and I mean that literally---I just got
the tap tonight, and have drawn exactly one pint from a mini-keg of
Diebels Alt)....

First, it was very easy to get everything setup and working.  It was
almost too easy.  :-)   Based on suggestions I've gotten (and I was
wondering about this, myself), I'm keeping the CO2 off when I'm not
actually drawing a beer).  I'm hoping that will minimize any problems
with leaks, too.

Second, I found the pressure adjustment to be pretty finicky.  But
then, I might not have let enough pressure from the keg before turning
on the CO2, so who knows.  It seems (again, based on *VERY* limited
use) that the pressure needs to be turned up fairly high before it
does anything, but once it starts having any impact, the tiniest bit
of turn on the regulator makes a *BIG* difference.

Third, and this may well be the result of being happy to have the thing,
it does seem like the Diebels Alt tastes better when drawn with a CO2
tap instead of the destructive taps where you puncture the keg.  It's
been a week plus since I tried it before in the mini-keg, so it's hard
to say...but....  The real test will be time (i.e., after the new wears
off, etc.).  The second real test will be when I get enough mini-kegs
to keg a batch of homebrew, and sample it!  :-)

Oh, one more comment:  the keg + tap just barely fits (height) in my
beer fridge.  But it does fit.  :-)

Again, to those who have already replied, thanks.  Also, for those
who asked for summaries, etc., don't worry---I will definitely post
that.  I want to wait a bit, though, and see if I get any additional
replies to this or my previous post to the HBD.

Later,
   --jim

- --
73 DE N5IAL (/4)               MiSTie #49997         < Running Linux 2.0.21 >
jim at n5ial.gnt.net || j.graham at ieee.org  ICBM / Hurricane: 30.39735N 86.60439W
Jack:   DS B+Bd+O+W Y+G 1 Y L W C+ I+++ A++ S V+ F- Q++ P++ PA PL-- SC++++
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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 19:14:55 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <tumarkin at mindspring.com>
Subject: more on labels


I have also tried a number of adhesives for labels. I had started with
self-adhesive label paper but that was expensive and unsatisfactory. I then
tried plain paper put on with milk. That worked ok and was cheap, but as
others have mentioned, they tend to come off in water (as in an ice chest).
I have been using the glue sticks for some time now and am pretty satisfied. 

The other problem with labels is that if you use an ink-jet printer, the
ink tends to run when it gets damp (let alone in an ice chest). So what I
started to do was to run off a sheet of 6 to 8 labels on my printer, and
then take them to the local Kinko's copy center and get as many sheets as I
would need for my batch run off on their color copier. The quality of the
graphics was quite good and the ink from the copier doesn't run anywhere
near as much as my printed labels. 

It was better, but still not totally satisfactory. Recently I found what
seems to be the solution. I print the labels on my printer and then for
some of the batch that I want for ice chest use, I cover the label with
clear contact paper. I still use the glue stick, but the contact paper
protects the paper label and ink from the water. Works great. It's
definately more hassle and a little more expensive, but the labels sure get
rave reviews at club events or parties. 

Brew on,

Mark Tumarkin
The Brewery in the Jungle

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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:01:38 -0400
From: "David Augsburger" <daugsbur at monroe.lib.mi.us>
Subject: Labels again

Another $.02,

I use regular office supply bought 1 by 4 inch labels.  If you own a
printerthey work great.  Just put the label on the cap.  There is no
washing the label off.  

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 -
 When I die, I want to decompose in a barrel of porter and have it served
in all the pubs in Dublin. I wonder would they know it was me? 

- --The Ginger Man, J.P. Donleavy

David Augsburger
daugsbur at monroe.lib.mi.us


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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:07:12 -0400
From: "David Augsburger" <daugsbur at monroe.lib.mi.us>
Subject: label again


Forgot one thing.  Print four labels to one 1 by 4 inch label.  Takes a
little in set up.  With four on one label, the label fits on the cap.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 -
 When I die, I want to decompose in a barrel of porter and have it served
in all the pubs in Dublin. I wonder would they know it was me? 

- --The Ginger Man, J.P. Donleavy

David Augsburger
daugsbur at monroe.lib.mi.us


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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:22:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Malta Test-Drive

Having been curious about malta since earlier this year, when I began
experiemnting with low- and non-alocholic brewing, I had been searching to no
avail in my area to find some commercially-prepared malta.  I finally scored,
at Smith's grocery in Las Cruces, NM (in the same section with the hot sauces
and mole...)

As Venezuela's own Lorenzo Barquin thoroughly reported in HBD2341, malta is
basically unfermented and carbonated wort.  I found some "Malta Hatuey" for
$4.79 a sixer, and figured what the hey.

First, some info from the package:

- -----

Malta Hatuey (is "Hatuey" going to be my response to the first sip?)
A non-alcoholic cereal beverage
A beverage brewed from filtered water, barley malt, caramel malt, mellomalt,
fructose, corn syrup, and hops

12 ounce serving contains:

Calories:  240 (!)
Total Fat:  0
Sodium:  26 mg (2%)
Total Carbohydrates:  60g (21%)
  Sugars  45g
Protein:  2g (2%)

Produced by special authority and under the supervision of Bacardi and
Company LTD, Nassau, Bahamas

Brewed & bottled by Modelo Brewing Co, Auburndale, FL  33823

- -----

According to Barquin's report, malta is a 14P (approx 1.056) wort composed of
80% pale malt, 15% caramel malt, and 5% chocolate malt.  I suppose the
chocolate is what "mellomalt" is, since this stuff is black as an imperial
stout (could be coloring too).  I measured Hatuey's gravity at 1.065, not far
off Barquin's specification.

How did it taste?  Pretty good, actually.  It was very lightly hopped, though
as sweet as is it, it could have deceptively-high IBU's, though I doubt it.
 Just a hint of hop in the finish.  Compared to wort hot out of the mash tun,
serving it cold and carbonated is an improvement.  So if you like to taste
your runoff, you just might like this stuff.  The kids might like it too.
 But I wouldn't make too much; you'll be fat and puking by the time it's
gone, and since it's unfermented, letting it sit around too long is asking
for trouble unless you can find a way to pasteurize it.

Here's a prototype recipe based on Lorenzo's posting:

2 gallons of Malta P'tooey

4 lb pale ale malt or 3.3 lb unhopped extract
3/4 lb crystal malt (your choice of color; 60L might be good)
1/4 lb chocolate
1 tsp Irish Moss last 15 minutes of boil

152F single infusion mash (or specialty-grain steep in two gallons of water)
Sparge enough to kettle to yield 2 gal after 1 hour boil (or top off to
volume near end of boil if necessary)

Hop with 1/4 oz Cluster (7.5% aa) 60 minutes

Chill & force-carbonate -- DO NOT ADD YEAST!!

Allow plenty of time before racking from the boiler for the break to settle,
or filter the stuff.  If you have commercial or home-made "carbonator"
bottlecaps, you could get this stuff from mill to fridge in a few hours.

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy


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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 20:34:06 -0700
From: "Grant W. Knechtel" <GWK at hartcrowser.com>
Subject: De Wolf-Cosyns bait-and-switcheroo

Keith Busby wrote in hbd 2478:
A homebrew supplier I talked with recently has stopped selling DWC malt on the
grounds that its quality has become inconsistent recently. Is this a
widespread view?

Can't say I have my finger on the pulse of the malt industry, but this sounds
like an old switch tactic when specifically asked for a superior, lower profit
margin product.  

"Oh, we don't carry that anymore." " Why not?" " Because, the quality is
inconsistent, this (No Name) is better,  etc, etc."  Some electronics and photo
retailers have been doing this for years,  it probably started before written
language.  "You don't want King Tut brand embalming spices - these Queen
O'Sheba's are better.  They're just too new to have been reviewed yet..." 

I do know that when faced with this kind of merchandising in other stores, I
tend to get hacked off and shop elsewhere.   I've been lucky thus far to have
not met it in homebrew shops, but it's bound to happen - there's always a small
percentage of people who aren't entirely honest.

This post is probably too late for the next HBD, so if previous posts have
proved me wrong, I'll have to drown my embarrassment in beer...
 -Grant
Neue Des Moines Hausbrauerei
Des Moines, Washington

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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:53:09 -0600
From: slamb at ghg.net (Sean Lamb)
Subject: 197 Dixie Cup Homebrew Competition & "fair" contests

It's that time of year again.

Time to..

SUBMIT YOUR HOMEBREW

to the 1997 Dixie Cup Homebrew Competition

Yes, the only Galactic home brewing competition will be held October 
24-25 in good ol' Houston, Texas.

When you submit your entries (and you will submit!) they will be due 
on 3 October.  The fee will be $6.(Maybe more if I think you deserve 
it.)   Those of you who are late to submit will be penalized. I know 
how much you enjoy that.

When you come to the Dixie Cup (and you will come!) you will 
participate in a Beer and Sausage tasting with Fred "The Master" 
Eckhardt, and you will be taught the ways of the UberBrewer by George 
Fix and Dave Miller at our Milli-Conference.  You will drink the 
brewed-for-the competition "Dominator" dopple bock.  You will judge 
the malt liquor category by drinking directly from large bottles in 
paper bags - and you will like it!

Send me e-mail for entry info or visit the Houston Foam Ranger 
Homebrew club's web place at

www.foamrangers.com.

About the "fairness" of competitions:  the 1996 Dixie Cup was the 
largest club-run competition ever in the Galaxy with 982 entries.  
The Foam Rangers had 212.  Was the competition fair? Hell no!  We 
(the Foam Rangers) "fixed" it so that we came in 4th in club  "point" 
totals (1 pt. for 3rd place, 2 for 2nd, 3 for 1st) and lost the Dixie 
Cup trophy for the 2nd year in a row to the Central Florida 
Homebrewers.  We did this with our patented BTS (Beer that sucks) 
recipies and techniques.  If your club wants to learn to fix 
competitions with this technique, let me know and I can arrange for 
the transmission of the proper information.
Sean Lamb   One of the Happy Humanoids in Friendswood, TX
http://www.ghgcorp.com/slamb

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Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 20:07:27 +0200
From: V.R.Quante at t-online.de (Volker R. Quante)
Subject: RE: Eisbock - The BATF has spoken...

Hello, Homebrewers,

I read the thread about icebeer and eisbock legality with great
interest, but there was something surprising: Don't you make any
difference between icebeer and eisbock in the U.S. as far as the
legality is concerned??? Especially Ian Wilson did not. But I think, we
here in Germany see a huge difference.

Producing icebeer means, to freeze out only a bit of water to get out
some proteins and bitterness and to have a smooth beer. No measurable
concentration of alcohol, it remains at about 4.5 to 5.5 %vol. The
process is called "icebrewing".

Producing eisbock means to concentrate the alcohol to get a stronger
beer, a so called 'bock', with more than 6 or 7 %vol. I never heard of a
brewery that calls this process "icebrewing".

So, Ian, no difference for the BATF between these two kinds of beer?

(Okay, maybe we Germans are very proud of our beer and our brewing
tradition, but other countries - other laws. I just wanted to add some
thoughts.)

Volker

- -- 
Volker R. Quante
Major i.G.   -   Dipl. Inform.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
privat / private contact:

Brunnenweg 4
D - 53 809 Ruppichteroth Schoenenberg
phone  		+49 - 22 95 - 24 75
fax    		+49 - 25 61 - 91 31 61 06 06
voicemail	+49 - 25 61 - 91 31 68 08 85
e-mail 		v.r.quante at t-online.de
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
dienstlich / official contact only:

Amt fuer Studien und Uebungen der Bundeswehr (AStudUebBw)
Bereich Sicherheitspolitik und Militaerstrategie
Federal Armed Forces Office for Studies and Exercises (FAFORSE)
Security Policy and Military Strategy Division

Schaumburgweg 3
D 51 545 Waldbroel
phone  +49 - 22 92 - 20 22 - 358
fax    +49 - 22 91 - 20 26
e-mail astuduebbw at t-online.de


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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 05:59:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: Brad Kazmer <kazmerbn at vuse.vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: Bob Klein's Book


Recently, Bob Klein's book was cited when discussing the classification 
of Negra Modelo.  I have found his book to be quite inconsistent, and his 
rating scale to be unreliable at best.  For example, he classifies SA Triple 
Bock as a Bock and SN Bigfoot Ale as a barleywine.  Also, he rates Spaten 
Oktoberfest (2.8) less than Rolling Rock (3.6) in the lager category.  I 
do enjoy that he evaluates mass produced beers and cheap malt liquors.

Any other feelings about this book?

Brad

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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:08:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: AJN <neitzkea at frc.com>
Subject: Follow-up to the burners thread

Well the general consensus is that the 15k btu burner is probable in the 
range of a standard stove top burners.  That's what I use now and it 
takes a long time to get boiling.

There were several people that said to get the big one and not be under 
powered!  The *replacement* (no stand) should be around $15-17 and build 
your own stand.

Several said to spend the $50-70 and get the burner, stand, pot and strainer 
and use it for other cooking duties too.

A 135k for a 8 gallon pot, gets throttled back a little after the boil 
begins.  Cost about $60, but you might find a better deal.

And this response is exactly what I want to avoid!

>Note that BTU ratings don't measure the heat going into a pot, just
>the amount of gas going out of the burner.  Unburned gas and/or poor
>design will reduce the heat input you get for a given BTU rating.
>There is some discussion that anything above 50-100K BTU is probably
>just spewing BTUs past your kettle into the air.

Here's my choice, based on this guys experience:

>I have a 35,000 BTU burner that works very well with a 5 gallon stock
>pot (i.e. boil in about 15 minutes).  I suspect that the 15,000 is a bit 
>slow. At that price though, I might consider buying it anyway, you can 
>always dedicate it to mashing later.

Apparently Brinkmann is the manufacture of most of these burners and 
sells replacements and have an 800 number, does anybody have this number 
so that I can call them?

Thanks for all the responses and information, as always this is a great
place to ask questions. 
_________________________________________________________
Arnold J. Neitzke     Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com
Brighton, Mi          CEO of the NightSky brewing Company
- ---------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:37:58 -0400
From: "Sornborger, Nathan" <nsornborger at email.mc.ti.com>
Subject: RE: Best Temperature Controller



>I recently acquired a pristine 17 cubic foot Sears upright freezer for
a
>paltry $50 (from a friend who just wanted to get rid of it).  Now I
just
>need a temperature controller, and I'll be lagerin!   After looking at
the
>controllers from Hoptech and Brewers Resource, I can't see large
differences
>except for the price ($54 and $99 respectively).  Are those the only
ones
>out there?  Which one is best, in your opinion?  Any tips for using the
>freezer and 1st time lagering?
>
>Mark Rose

Both Temp controllers you mention are too expensive it seems. A quick
look in the Grainger catalog (a nationwide industrial supplier) yielded
5 line voltage remote bulb thermostats under $40. Best is a relative
term with these things, they are all very similar and all have an
adjustable hysteresis which goes down to about 3-1/2 degrees, (which
should be adequate). Have a look around, this isn't a specialty thing, a
local contractor supply outfit should have one. If you need
manufacturers and part #'s E-mail me and I'll send along a list.

Nate Sornborger
sornborger at ids.net
Barrington, RI

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Date: 7 Aug 1997 09:16:24 -0400
From: "John Penn" <john_penn at spacemail.jhuapl.edu>
Subject: Honey Brown

                       Subject:                               Time:8:58 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          Honey Brown                            Date:8/7/97

  I know I shouldn't say it but I tried JWDundee Honey Brown ale and did not
like it that much.  Maybe I got a bad batch.  Just my personal taste, not
meant to fault those who do like it.  However, based on a recommendation by
another friend/brewer, I tried Papazians Rocky Raccoon Lager which is about
1/3 honey, 2/3 malt and loved it.  You could try adding a small amount of
chocolate malt to this to give it a bit more color and make a brown ale.  IBUs
were about 25-28 if I remember right which is in the Bass Ale kind of range. 
I also recently made an ESB from a recipe provided by another HBD lurker, Dave
Kerr, and substituted 1 # of honey for the 1 # of sugar in the recipe.  In
spite of my initial impression of "honey" beers, I must say I think I like
having a little honey in the beer.  It makes for a lighter tasting ale with
more kick than you'd expect and there's a certain flavor to the honey that I
like but cannot describe.  Hope that helps.  Oh, Rocky Raccoon Lager is in
Papazians NJOHB book and I plan to make it again soon.  Hope that helps.
  John Penn


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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:21:25 -0500
From: "Curt Abert" <abert at flanders.isgs.uiuc.edu>
Subject: removing goo from kegs

Brewfolk:

I just got a shipment of kegs; unfortunately, they were shipped
to me not packed in boxes, but strapped together with strapping
tape.  Does anyone know of something that will help remove the
residual goo from the packing tape (also the other crud and labels)?
I thought that maybe naptha or mineral spirits would help, but I'm
afraid the petroleum-based solvent may damage the rubber parts on
the outside of the keg.

Thanks,

Curt Abert
abert at flanders.isgs.uiuc.edu

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---