---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  First all-grain batch...Infection????!!!!! (Jim Poder)
  Diastase level = 60 lintner? (Dan Cole)
  Whitelabs yeast ("John Robinson")
  Call for entries ("Christopher V. Sack")
  Torrified Wheat - Malts - Protein Rests (Paul Niebergall)
  Wyeast lager strains alcohol tolerance (Jon Bovard)
  Steinbier ("David R. Burley")
  OG calculation (Jeff Renner)
  Beer World (Sammy Sideburns)
  Philly Competition (JUKNALIS)
  War of the Worts (Alan Folsom)
  Como se dice "Ale" (Darrell)
  Sparge time (Al Korzonas)
  alpha amylase correction ("Eric Fouch")
  Re: Iodine (brian_dixon)
  European Breweries ("Ryan E. Lincoln")
  excellent & cheap valve for gotts (AlannnnT)
  water salts (Adam Holmes)
  Sake (Jason Henning)
  extract tang & HSA / Blueberry blues (nathan_l_kanous_ii)
  Lagering temps (nathan_l_kanous_ii)
  Old yeast (nathan_l_kanous_ii)
  HSA<>"butterscotch" (Some Guy)
  GFCI's ("Forrest Duddles")
  IPA Recipe Request / Water Analysis Help (Trent Neutgens)
  Priming with Corn Syrup (EFOUCH)
  Rehydrating dry yeast - a momily? (Brian Myers)
  Long boil / Preserving Wort ("Andrew Avis")
  Reusing yeast ("Jens P.Maudal")
  Yield pts of fruit (Greg Young)
  Tang (Al Korzonas)
  bottled water (Al Korzonas)
  Whole batch decoction (Al Korzonas)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 02:13:42 -0700
From: Jim Poder <jpoder at asu.uswest.net>
Subject: First all-grain batch...Infection????!!!!!

Yesterday I brewed my first All-grain brew (yea me!).  I thought that it
couldn't be *that* much harder than doing a partial mash...and it
probably wouldn't have, but...  

[started writing chronology of my error filled brew day, but hardly
necessary]

Don't get me wrong, I am really liking this all grain thing, but I'm
still getting my system down.  "takes some time to work out the kinks,"
I've been told.

After what seemed like a LONG brew day, I finally pitched the yeast at
about 11:00PM (didn't get started till about 5, so I guess it wasn't too
bad).  When I woke up at about 7AM the airlock was bubbling nicely but I
looked at the carboy and there was about an inch of small(about pea
size), white, spongy looking things floating in my beer!  I've never
seen anything like this before.  I almost cried!  Is this an infection?  
when I came back from mountain biking about noon the spongy things had
fallen, and was replaced by a regular kreusen, but some of the spongy
things are  still floating around in my beer.

Now, about 27 hours after pitching the yeast, my brew smells good (love
that cascade aroma!)  still some floaties caught in the yeast
turbulence, but other than that everything seems normal.  What am I
dealing with?  Am I just freaking out over nothing?  

When I noticed the problem I immediately consulted books by both
Papazian and Miller, and found very little on identifying infections.
And some of it conflicting!  So I tried to use the HBD archive search
engine, but this proved almost useless as I got a HUGE number of hits,
and the dozen or so I looked at were about sour mashes and lambics!  So
I thought I better ask the think tank at HBD.  What say you?  I would
hate to have to feed my first all grain brew to the creatures in the
sewer!


      TIA for any advise.
					-Jim

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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 05:49:28 -0400
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: Diastase level = 60 lintner?

After e-mailing EDME about trying to get information regarding the ability
of their diastatic malt to convert starches, they replied "diastase level
in the cans is approx 60 lintner - more in the bulk products."

Is there anyone out there who help me convert this into something more
usable. Is this equivalent to 1 # of Pale Malt, 2? 3? ,etc.

For those extract brewers who may need to convert a small amount of
starches, this information could be very useful.

Thanks,
Dan Cole
dcole at roanoke.infi.net.this.line.modified.to.prevent.spammers



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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:24:24 +0000
From: "John Robinson" <robinson at novalis.ca>
Subject: Whitelabs yeast

Hi all,

I've never used this yeast, so I thought I was eminantly qualified to 
comment on it. :)

Seriously, I recently started brewing in 10 gallon batches and I'm 
having a very hard time getting enough yeast to keep my lag 
times under 24 hours.  It has required a serious re-examination of my 
yeast handling.  I have had several batches with rather more flaws 
than I'm used to, and since I changed several things more or less at 
once, it took quite a while to pin point the problem with any 
certainty.

In an effort to conclusively demonstrate this to myself, I went to a 
local microbrewery and got about a liter of fresh slurry from them.  
Since this was a Tuesday and I wasn't brewing until the weekend, I 
capped it tightly and put it in the fridge.  When I looked, that 
slurry had compacted to a cake about 2 inches high (this is a 2L PET 
bottle).  This is a lot of yeast, even for 10 gallons of beer.

I could have pitched that directly into my wort, but I felt that 
taking it from the fridge and throwing it into a 1.065 SG IPA would 
be too big of a shock.  Consequently I made two .5 gallon starters, 
which fermented out in a day, and then used one starter each for 5 
gallons of beer.  Lag time was under 8 hours.

The point is that there could be several reasons for poor performance 
of a vial of yeast slurry.  Improper handling and storage prior to 
purchase, shock from being taken out of the fridge and pitched 
directly into beer strength wort are just two.

Yeast are living organisms.  It is only polite to feed them breakfast 
before you send them to work! :)

While I'm sure you *can* pitch a tube of Whitelabs yeast directly, 
that doesn't mean you *should*!

- ---
John Robinson       "When I am working on a problem I never think about beauty.
Software Developer   I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I
NovaLIS Technologies have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know
robinson at novalis.ca  it is wrong." - Buckminster Fuller (1895-1983)

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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:33:39 -0400
From: "Christopher V. Sack" <cvsack at ican.net>
Subject: Call for entries

The Salt City Brew Club of Syracuse NY would like to invite everyone 
to participate in our 12th annual homebrew competition to be held on 
November 22 at the Syracuse Suds Factory.

We will be accepting all recognized styles of homebrew, ciders, and
meads.  Ciders and meads will be judged seperately and will recieve
their own best of show award.

We will be accepting all sizes of bottles (7 fl. oz. min) and all
colors.  Like last year's competition, which drew over 300 entries, we
will also be accepting PET plastic bottles sealed with "carbonators". 
(The carbonators will be returned with you completed evaluations.) 
Only two bottles per entry need to be submitted, only one bottle if
you plan on entering a PET carbonator.  (We suggest that there be a
minimum of 20 fl. oz. per entry.)

Please contact me for an entry packet and I will send one out to you
ASAP.

Christopher V. Sack  <cvsack at ican.net>
Syracuse, NY 

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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:00:09 -0500
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  Torrified Wheat - Malts - Protein Rests

Hi All, 

Can somebody help me out and tell me what is Torrified Wheat? 
According to the guy at the home brew store where I get my supplies,
torrified wheat is an Unmalted product.  It is supposedly  pre-gelatinized
by heating.  Kind of like puffed wheat.   I've used small amounts of
Torrified Wheat before when making Bavarian Wheat Beer and it seemed
to work good.  This time I am formulating a pLambic and already have 3
pounds of the stuff that is ground up and mixed with 7 pounds of ground
lager malt.  It would be kind of hard to separate it now.

Data points on malts and protein rests:
I finally have collected enough notes to make some general observations
about my home brewery.  I have primarily been using two different malt
products over the last four years;  Munton & Fisons Pale Ale Malt (M&F)
and DeWolf Coysens Pale Ale Malt (DC).  have brewed several batches
of beer with these two malts.  Some single temperature infusion, some
step infusion, and even some decoction.   (O.K. - so I did a lot of
experimentation).

Last weekend I was reviewing my tasting notes and evaluating several
samples of home brew from previous brewing sessions when I came
across a fairly clear trend in the data.  Almost all of the brews made with
M&F malt had some degree of cloudiness.  The cloudiness was present
even if the mash schedule I used included a protein rest.  I thought M&F
malts were "Highly Modified"  and did not need protein rests (which in my
case didn't help much anyway).  Conversely, almost all of the beers
made with DC malts were crystal clear.  

I only counted light colored beers in my evaluation.

Does anyone else have any practical observations concerning the use
of these two malts?  Please don't blast me with a lot of scientific
numbers concerning protein levels and middle molecular weight proteins,
etc. (I've been following the thread on protein rests as closely as anyone
else out there on the HBD)  Simple observations of the clarity of your
finished beer will suffice.   If I get enough responses, I will post a
summary later.

Thanks,

Paul Niebergall
Kansas City
pnieb at burnsmcd.com


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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1986 00:20:52 +1000
From: Jon Bovard <j.bovard at student.qut.edu.au>
Subject: Wyeast lager strains alcohol tolerance

I plan to make a high alcohol D/bock in ht enear future and have been
informed that some lager yeasts can conk above 8%alc/volume. Has anyone had
experience with the following.

Wyeast Bavarian
Wyeast Munich
Wyeast Danish
Wyeast Czech Pilsner
Wyeast Bohemian

I plan to start around O.G 1.075 or so and end up around 1.020 to 1.025.
Any advice??

cheers
Jon Bovard
Brisbane Australia


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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:08:56 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Steinbier

Brewsters:

As I recall, Steinbier is made by pouring wort
OVER hot rocks and *not* by putting hot rocks
INTO the wort, nicht wahr??

What's the difference?? =

 I think lots of difference will be found =

as the thin film of wort pouring over
 the rocks will get to a much higher temperature =

and the rocks will stay hotter longer as the wort
 is poured over them versus immersing the
 hot rocks in the wort, just from simple
 heat/mass transfer considerations.
By pouring, more wort will be exposed to
higher temperatures, I think.

 High wort temperature is the key here,
 as the plan is to caramelize the wort sugars
 and make melandoins, in situ.
 Perhaps with our limited volume of 5 - 10 gallons
 of wort, we should consider pouring cold wort
 over the rocks to minimize HSA.

Also, I don't remember anything about
 the Germans putting the rocks in the refrigerator
 and then adding them to the secondary. =

 The process of pouring should form the caramel
 while the rocks are hot and then the later wort
 should dissolve it from the cooler rocks,
 leaving the rocks clean.

As I recommended earlier, these rocks =

should be in some kind of container with a lid,
 so that if they explode from thermal shock
 you won't get a facefull of sharp,
 searing hot rocks and boiling liquid.
  I suspect that no matter how choosy you
 are with the rocks,
 you will eventually get some to explosively crack
 - after all this is an ancient technique in =

stone working to build a fire on a rock and
 then douse it with water to crack the rock.

Please be careful. Wear safety glasses,
 face mask, gloves,long sleeves and long pants
 and whatever protective gear you can muster.
 Expect the best, plan for the worst.
 We'd like to have you be able to see the HBD
 and tell us about your experiments.


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:19:31 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: OG calculation

In HBD 2535, I came up with a different answer from Eric Fouch and Jim
Suggs for Kevin MacRae's question about dilute honey OG using slightly
dirrerent methods (Eric used % of total volume, Jim and I used actual
volume).  I would have had the same answer if I had checked my math - the
method is correct.

>[(3.22 x 72) + 1.22 x 132)]/4.44 = 92, or adding back the 1, SG 1.092
								^^^^^^^
Nope, it's = 1.0885, about what Eric got.  My setup was right, I musta just
punched in the numbers wrong.  Sorry.

Jeff



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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:17:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Sammy Sideburns <sdarko at indiana.edu>
Subject: Beer World


Hey Guys,

This may be a little off topic, but I remember going to a certain website
called Beer World.  It was really cool and it even had a history of Beer
(that was very cool).  Anyway, I tried to look it up today and I can't
seem to find the address.  Is there anyone out there who can help me?  I'd
really appreciate it.

TIA

Samuel Darko












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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:36:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: JUKNALIS <juknalis at ARSERRC.Gov>
Subject: Philly Competition

The Best of Philly Homebrew Competition 
will be held on November 16, 1997.

Entries will be accepted between 10/27-11/11/97
at the usual locations (see website)

Best of Show winner will be brewed at Manayunk Brewing Co.!

Judges/stewards are encouraged to contact Betty at
 (brob7200 at aol.com)

More info on our upcoming competition can be found at:

www.netaxs.com/~shady/hops.html

If you cannot access this site I can forward you the entry packet
via email.

    cheers

        Joe Uknalis
        birman at netaxs.com

 


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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:40:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: folsom at ix.netcom.com (Alan Folsom)
Subject: War of the Worts

"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
					- Winston Churchill (?)

Never ones to learn from past mistakes, the members of the Keystone 
Hops homebrew club would like to announce the 3rd annual "War of the 
Worts" competition, to be held January 17th in Lahaska Pa.  

As some of you may know, a few weeks after last year's competition 
our host, Buckingham Mountain Brewery and Restaurant, burned down.  
Ed McGowan, the owner and brewer, was not able to reopen the pub 
until early this September.  Surprisingly, he is welcoming us back 
again!  The upstairs where the competition is held has been completely 
rebuilt, and is about double it's previous size, so there should be 
plenty of room.  Restroom facilities have also been greatly expanded 
:-)

Flyers will be available once we have drop-off sites confirmed.  Last 
year we had 333 entries, and are hoping to do even better this year.

Given enough interest, we will arrange a BJCP exam in conjunction with 
the contest.  If you would like to take or retake the exam then, please 
let me know as soon as possible.

For information, you may contact:

Organizer:      Al Folsom       (215) 343-6851
                                folsom at ix.netcom.com
Judge Coord.    Nate Brese      (215) 631-9674
                                rahneb at rohmhaas.com

Thanks for your interest, and if you are in the area, please repay
some of Ed McGowan's support of the homebrewing community by stopping
by and trying some of his beers.

Al Folsom

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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:54:51 -0600
From: Darrell <darrell at montrose.net>
Subject: Como se dice "Ale"

Hola Hector,

Yo vivia en Venezuela, y gradue del Colegio Internacional de Caracas
(1978)!!

I looked in my Spanish to English dictionary, and only got "cervesa
inglesa".  It seems to me that Polar was called a "laguer" wasn't it?
You'd think there would be a corresponding word for Ale.  I have some
friends in Madrid,  I'll ask them and see if they know.

- --
Darrell Garton
Montrose, CO



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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:29:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Sparge time

Lou writes:
     I too am an engineer and I think Al hit the nail here.  Diffusion is 
     the rate limiting factor.  The amount and distribution of surface area 
     at the grain/strainer interface will surely affect the concentration 
     gradients in the liquid in the lauter tun.  So maybe the issue becomes 
     how long do I want to spend sparging?  If I have 2 hours, the easy 
     masher would be fine.  If you only have 1 hour, maybe a phalse bottom 
     would be a better choice.  A slotted manifold probably falls in 
     between.

I agree wit Lou although I think that he has exaggerated the times a little.
In the experiment that I did, comparing various lauter tun designs (see
Great Grains SI of Zymurgy), I shot for a 1 hour sparge time in all the
systems.  Only the grain-bag-in-bucket (a.k.a. Miller) design took longer
than 1 hour (because I could not get the runnings to flow any faster and
it took 2 hours to get 7 gallons of runnings even at full throttle).  So,
if you have an hour to sparge, I think that all but the grain-bag-in-bucket
system will work for you and give respectable efficiency.  If you must
sparge faster, then yes, as Lou says, a Phil's Phalse Bottom *theoretically*
would give you better yield.  Note we haven't even started talking about
grain bed depth or tun geometry...     yikes!

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:15:25 -0400
From: "Eric Fouch" <fouches at iserv.net>
Subject: alpha amylase correction

HBD_
Thanks to Al K for pointing out my confusion regarding my ramblings about
Bruce Gills question pertaining to overnight mashes.  I was working from
memory (mistake #1) when I said "Alpha amylase denatures quickly at temps
above 150F".  All pointed out (gently) that I had my enzymes reversed. 
Looking back through ny referances, I found why I said that:  I was
thinking of Charlie P's discussion of the alpha amylase you get in the
bottle in homebrew stores which is apparently of fungal origin.  This stuff
reportedly denatures quickly at 150 F.  Unless the referance is wrong, I
take this stuff to be different chemically than the a-amylase in barley
malt, which is quite active from 149- 158F.  
Maybe someone else should answer Bruces questions from now on.
I still stand by my application of the rule of mixtures!!!

Eric Fouch
efouch at steelcase.com
fouches at iserv.net
BentDick at YoctoBrewery.Kentwood
Humbled Brewing Ex-Pundit  

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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 97 13:34:23 -0700
From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
Subject: Re: Iodine

>        Is it possible for iodophore to go bad?  Can high temperature
be 
>harmful to the stuff?  I have been combating a sanitization problem.
My 
>last 3 batches have gone bad when I bottle them.  After the first
batch, 
[snip]
>to clean the bottling bucket.  I am 99.9999999999% sure the bottles
were 
>good.  So that leaves the bottling bucket (done with iopdophore).  Now 
>the pale ale has the ring of scum in the bottle.  Stop me before I ruin

>another batch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wesley,

I had a similar problem and discovered that my bottling bucket was the
cause, not the sanitization solution.  What I really mean is that either
the bucket, the spigot (or spigot components) was harboring an infection
in spite of my best efforts.  And that was after disassembling
everything and leaving it in an overnight Iodophor soak, mixed to
approximately 25 ppm.  I figured that in spite of my best efforts, the
plastic parts in the spigot and possibly the bucket, or the washer
between the bucket and the spigot, can have scratches that harbor
contamination.  My infections went away, and my garage now sports a
really cool 7-gallon car wash bucket, complete with drainage spigot (not
that I use the spigot!).

Good luck!
Brian

PS: Everything in my case tasted and smelled fine, at each point
(rackings etc) in the process, but at 5 weeks in the bottles, they'd get
this really funky fruity weird smell and taste that I never was able to
identify.  Ever have a fruit-punch Dusseldorf Altbier before?  I don't
think Homer would've said "Mmmmmm .... beer!" when tasting THAT one!


 .......................................................................

Item Subject: WINMAIL.DAT
Couldn't convert Microsoft Mail Message Data item to text at a gateway.

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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:45:41 -0700
From: "Ryan E. Lincoln" <housrl at wenet.net>
Subject: European Breweries

 I am going to Europe in May and am planning on going to Belgium,
Germany, Austria, Republic of Czech, and possibly a short stop in
Holland.  I would appreciate any info on breweries or related places of
interest that are not to be missed.

 E-mail responses can be sent to me at:  housrl at wenet.net

 Thanks for the tips,

 Ryan


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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:51:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: excellent & cheap valve for gotts

I have monkeyed around with many valve setups for my gott lauter tun. The
best also happens to be the most adjustable.

Start with a plastic valve like the one that comes with the plastic bottling
buckets. [about $2.00] They are very adjustable for flow rates.

Remove the useless valve that comes with the gott cooler. Open the hole in
the cooler to 7/8 ths of an inch. Use a rotary file on a drill or a hand
file. Open the hole just enough to allow the valve to screw into the cooler.

Use a phils phalse bottom or a cooper manifold or ez masher or an old gym
sock or whatever you like connected to a plastic or copper tube [3/8" O.D.]
long enough to reach well inside the back of the valve. Use a second  piece
of plastic tube  [3/8' I.D. X 1/2" O.D.] jammed inside the valve to make the
mash collecting tube fit tight. Actually, you want to fit this second piece
into the valve first, before installing the valve.
A little hot water makes things slide together well. 

The best feature of this setup when used with a phil's bottom is the
stiffness of the tubings slid inside each other keeps the phalse bottom from
drifting upward. 


Total cost about $2.25. I stir my mash well and have never knocked it apart.
[yet]. The valve controls the flow from a trickle to a gush. 

best brewing,
Alan Talman


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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:53:59 -0600 (MDT)
From: Adam Holmes <adamholm at holly.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: water salts

I work at a lab in Ft. Collins, CO tthat gives me access to way too many
scientific gadgets which could thoroughly complicate my brewing.  One
gadget is a great water filtration system that gives me access to all the
deionized water I want for free.  Since I don't have a water filter at
home to remove chlorine, I wanted to create water for an American Pale Ale
using only the deionized water.  We have analytical reagent grade salts to
add but they say NOT FOR FOOD USE (Dave Miller says that's OK in his book
 - any thoughts?).  I am using an extract recipe so do I need to worry
about pH as well as any target salt concentrations?  I'm having trouble
finding info on such pure water synthesis.  Everything I read says don't
use deionized water since it is cost prohibitive (not in my case) and just
use it in addition to your tap water.  Anybody have some water recipes?

Private e-mail OK
Thanks
Adam Holmes


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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:46:16 GMT
From: huskers at olywa.net (Jason Henning)
Subject: Sake 

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager (copyright 1962)-

Quite a while ago, there was gentleman from Japan that had posted some
Sake instructions. At the time, I wasn't interested in this Far West
beverage. But now, I'd like to give it a try. I tried 'sake' in the
search engine and came up with 322 posts. I checked several post in
the time frames I sorta remember them appearing but couldn't nail it
down. Can someone tell me the name of said individual? Also, any
information from sake brewers would be appreciated.

- -----

As some remember, I posted an IPA recipe (in HBD 2454) that got all of
it's bittering form late kettle additions. 20 ounces in a ten gallon
batch! Three recipe notes: I cut the dry hop additions out and am glad
I did. Plenty of hop flavor and aroma w/o them. I said honey when I
meant honey malt. And I named it Wandering Vagabond IPA. I was
inspired by Rogue Brewery's method of some-of-everything 15
ingredients beers. A rogue is a wondering vagabond.

I calculated it at 65 IBUs but think it was actually a little less. It
turned on awesome. The flavor was unequal to any beer I've made. The
hop flavor and aroma is much more rounded and complex. the hops seemed
to have meld together with each other and the beer better than
traditional dry-hopping. I'm planning to brew it again next weekend.

If you subscribe to the philosophy that too much of everything is just
enough, you'll love this one!

Cheers,
Jason Henning <huskers olywa net>
Bid Red Alchemy and Brewing
Olympia, Washington - "It's the water"

Beer is my business and I just put in 20 hours of overtime

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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:08:31 -0400
From: nathan_l_kanous_ii at ferris.edu
Subject: extract tang & HSA / Blueberry blues


Michael Brown wrote that HSA in extract brews causes then to taste like
butterscotch due to diacetyl.  I belive that introduction of oxygen into a
fermenting wort (not a boiling wort) will induce the production of
diacetyl.  I'm not sure exactly what flavor changes occur with HSA (speak
up those that do), but I don't think they are "beneficial" like diacetyl
(relatively beneficial...if you like it and it fits what you're brewing.

Christopher Tkach thinks his blueberry beer is infected and asks about
making it a lambic.  First, just because it is infected DOES NOT make it a
plambic.  Secondly, blueberries are sour.  If you ferment out the natural
sugar, they are sour.  That may be the source of your "problem".

Incidentaly, adding maltodextrine to your beer at bottling will only add
body, won't it?  My understanding is that maltodextrine adds body, lactose
will add the sweetness you desire.

Nathan in Frankenmuth, MI



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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:37:31 -0400
From: nathan_l_kanous_ii at ferris.edu
Subject: Lagering temps


I'm getting my stuff together (slowly) to try a couple of lagers this
winter. I have a "dormitory" size fridge that I can use to control
fermentation temps or to lager in. I put my temperature controller on last
night and set it for 34 deg F. When I woke up the thermometer read 36 deg
F. I'm sure that this is as low as it will go. I reset the thermostat so I
wouldn't leave it running constantly at such low temps. I had a case of
beer in the fridge for thermal mass. My question is, is 36 to 38 deg F
adequate for lagering? I suppose that it's better than not being able to do
it at all, eh? Also, I've read some past postings that seemed to imply that
you could lager at 45 deg F for 3 to 4 weeks, and successively down to
recommendations of 7 to 8 weeks at 32 degF. What is going on here? Can you
lager faster at higher temps? Doesn't make sense to me. TIA
Nathan in Frankenmuth, MI



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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:40:26 -0400
From: nathan_l_kanous_ii at ferris.edu
Subject: Old yeast


Greetings to the collective!  I have a packet of Wyeast Czech pilsner yeast
that I picked up quite a while ago.  I'm just getting things together to
begin some lager beers (note my previous post).  This yeast packet is AT
LEAST 2 years old.  My impression is that this should still be a viable
culture.  It's been stored in the refrigerator since I bought it.  Will it
just start more slowly because of age, or should I pitch it (in the
garbage, not my wort) and buy a new culture?  TIA
Nathan in Frankenmuth, MI



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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:23:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: HSA<>"butterscotch"

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

In HBD 2536, Michel J. Brown <homemade at spiritone.net> says:

"HSA afaik tastes like butterscotch (diacetyl?)"

Diacetyl does indeed taste like butterscotch; however, taste *normally* 
attributed to HSA include such luminaries as "wet cardboard" or 
"sherry-like", the latter usually consigned to indicate oxidation during 
and post-ferment.

Most "tangs" encountered in beers not supposed to demonstrate such 
flavor notes by this brewer have  had to do with one of two things: 
overzealous application of brewing salts or infection.

My $0.02... 

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan                pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor                  janitor@hbd.org
Harvest THESE: rhundt at fcc.gov jQuello at fcc.gov sness at fcc.gov rchong at fcc.gov



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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:43:30 +0000
From: "Forrest Duddles" <fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu>
Subject: GFCI's

Hi folks,

 I'm afraid I started the GFCI confusion and I'm sorry to continue an 
off-topic thread. I got a couple of emails concerning this one and 
realize that I should have been more explicit in my explanation  of 
what GFCI's do.

Nathan's description below is absolutely correct.

>> Forrest Duddles said:
>>"Your GFCI is made to trip whenever it detects a flow of current to 
>>ground from either the hot or neutral conductor. It will also trip 
>>if the neutral is opened."

>This is simply not the case. The GFCI continually monitors the 
>current in the "hot" and "common" conductors (the normal current 
>carrying wires). If the amount headed out to the device differs from 
>the amount coming back by more than 5 milliamps, the GFCI interrupts 
>the electric power by "tripping".

I believe more must be said about the following.
 
 >It is this that saves you from 
>getting fried in the tub, because if power is headed out through the 
>hot lead and back through you, the tub, and the pipes, not the 
>ground, an imbalance will occur and off it goes. Of course current 
>down the ground also would mean an imbalance and cause it to trip. 
>This is why in houses with old groundless wiring systems, outlet 
>changes must be to GFCI outlets and not regular ones.
>
>Nate Sornborger

 My original description was kept brief and general and I'll stand by 
its accuracy. Nathan correctly described what the GFCI innards do but 
I must disagree with his description of ground.

 The ground in household electrical systems is commonly either 
attached to a metal water pipe that is in direct earth contact or 
attached to a ground rod driven into the earth. 

 Using the bathtub example above, 5 milliamps of current must flow 
in order to trip the GFCI. There must be a complete electrical path 
before current will flow. 

The current path in the bathtub example flows to (earth)ground 
through the victim, water pipes and tub. If you grab a hot wire 
while standing on a dry floor and get a shock, you were in the 
electrical path via the dry floor and whatever else stood between you 
and (earth)ground.
 
My original description of GFCI's stated that they trip when a 
current flows from either the hot or neutral conductor to ground. 
In each case described above, current flows between a condutor and 
(earth)ground. I have seen neutral conductors with voltages as high 
as 40 volts above ground and open neutrals that carry full line 
voltage so a neutral-to-(earth)ground current flow can happen just as 
easily as hot-to-(earth)ground.

It is important to realize that a GFCI will *not* trip if you get 
between hot and neutral conductors and less than 5 milliamps flows to 
(earth)ground. Though an unlikely scenario, you would be just as 
dead.

My original post was in reply to a question of why a GFCI would trip 
when a JCI temperature controller was used with a refrigerator. That 
refrigerator may or may not have had a ground conductor in its cord. 
The polarity may have been reversed leaving the chassis hot. The list 
could go on and on. 

I suspected that either the controller was 
mis-wired or that the controller probe or case was acting as a ground 
conductor which would trip the GFCI if  >5 milliamps current flowed 
from either conductor through it.


I am, once again truly sorry for any confusion caused by this and I 
believe Nathan, myself and others who have emailed me are all in 
agreement about how GFCI's work. I will be more careful in my wording 
in the future.

Let's please take any further discussion to email.
Hope this helps!

Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu

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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:55:01 -0500
From: Trent Neutgens <tneutgen at isd.net>
Subject: IPA Recipe Request / Water Analysis Help

 Hello All,
 I have just two quick questions for the minds of the HBD.
 First, Could anyone share with me their favorite IPA all-grain 5 gallon

 recipe.  This will be my first all-grain and I am hoping to find a
 single infusion mash for simpliciy reasons.  I will be serving this
beer
 to a group of friends in our own little beer-off which includes home
 brews and purchased beers.  I need a recipe that will stand out above
 all the rest.
 Secondly, I just got a water analysis from my city people and I would
 like to know what you all think of it.  What would you do if this was
 your beer and you had to brew with it.  I've also got a Water Spring
 near by where I could get my brewing water.  After looking at my water
 Analysis, would you say thats the way to go instead?  Personal replies
 would probably be best for the sake of bandwidth.

Total Hardness 29 gpg                    Flouride 1mg/l
Total Iron       .15 mg/l                    Manganese  .03 mg/l
Chloride        15.0 mg/l                    Silica        Less Than 2.0
mg/l
Nitrate            less than 1.0 mg/l       Sodium    31.5 mg/l
Magnesium    54.0 mg/l                    Calcium    108.0 mg/l
Alkalinity        302.0 mg/l as CaC03
Total Dissolved Solids        511 mg/l
pH                    7.9
Silicon            Less than 1 mg/l


 BIG  TIA,
 Mmmmmm, CHUBBY Beer!!
 Trent Neutgens
 Chaska, MN
 tneutgen at isd.net
 ***********************************************************
 *******Chaska Homebrewers United By Beer Yearnings*****
 ***********************************************************


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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:26:45 -0400
From: EFOUCH at steelcase.com
Subject: Priming with Corn Syrup


Date: Tuesday, 21 October 1997 10:24am ET
To: Sendout
From: Eric.Fouch at STC001
Subject: Priming with Corn Syrup
 
 
HBD-
Mike Fay is curious about his buddies priming activities regarding corn syrup.
It sounds like your friend did the solids calculations I was to lazy to do
when I realized I had no priming sugar on priming day.  I to reached for the
corn syrup and only used 1 cup.  The resultant chocolate porter wound up
undercarbonated for my tastes, but I tell my non-brewing buddies (and even
some of my brewing buddies) that low carbonation is stylistically correct for
a chocolate porter. I think his beer will be fine, at least not
overcarbonated. I still haven't bothered to try to figure out the sugar
content of one cup of corn syrup. It's too bad the corn syrup I used didn't
say it had preservatives in it, or I would have thought to use brown sugar and
gotten more carbonation. Anybody wanna hear my theories on an ethanol fuel
based us economy and the subsequent evisceration of the oil import/export
Fleecing of America?
 
Didn't think so
 
Eric Fouch
efouch at steelcase.com
"Solving the World's Problems with Glib One-liners"
(Me, not Steelcase.  They don't necessarily hold all my opinions- just the
politically correct, warm and fuzzy ones)
Kent Dick Bent Wood BrewoYoctory

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Date: 21 Oct 97 10:54:10 
From: Brian Myers <Brian_Myers at notes.seagate.com>
Subject: Rehydrating dry yeast - a momily?

I usually brew 10 gallons at a time, which makes it easy to perform
side-by-side experiments with two 5 gallon batches.  I have recently
compared rehydrating dry yeast to just dumping it in the wort, and it
is my opinion that the benefit of rehydration, if any, is extremely
small.  I have performed this experiment twice, and both times I saw
no discernable difference in the onset time or character of the
fermentation.  If anyone else has performed similar experiments,
I'd be interested to hear your results;  I realize this is a  small sample
size.

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Date: 21 Oct 1997 09:35:58 -0600
From: "Andrew Avis" <Andrew.Avis.0519423 at nt.com>
Subject: Long boil / Preserving Wort

                      Subject:                              Time:  9:58 =
AM
  OFFICE MEMO         Long boil / Preserving Wort           Date:  =
10/21/97

Gentlemen:

I just got The Brewmaster's Bible out of the library - it's very new =
(1997), but really focuses on extract brewing.  Some interesting recipes, =
if you're an extract brewer.  I did come across something that I had =
never read before: the author claims that a long boil (2-3 hours) will =
cause some hot break proteins to re-disolve into the wort, producing a =
velvety smooth beer with tons of body.  Can anyone verify this?  Are =
there other  problems (such as haze) with this technique?  I'm planning a =
Festbock similar to Holsten's, which is dark and very rich and creamy, =
and I would like to try an extended boil to increase colour and body.

Randy Kinsman <kinsman at glinx.com> asks about preserving unfermented wort =
to sell retail.  Randy, there is a company (Spagnols?) out of Vancouver =
doing exactly this, selling 15L of hopped all-grain wort that you add 8 L =
of water to, pitch yeast, and then stand back.  I believe the brand is =
called Brew House, and it is packed in a thick plastic bag, housed in a =
large box, exactly like a better wine kit.  You might give them a call to =
see how they manage the process.

Drew


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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:41:29 +0100
From: "Jens P.Maudal" <jensmaudal at bu.telia.no>
Subject: Reusing yeast

I have always been under the impression that using the same yeast strain
over and over again would be no problem, just skim the top off, or save
some slurry from the last brew.
I thougt to myself this is ok, I will be able to shrink my yeast budget
considrebly this way with only a small effort in return. I have now
realised it is not as simple as that. My last brews have been tipped
down the toilet, I have noticed lately that my favorite receipes hasn't
quite tasted the same, on reflection after two or three reuses of the
same yeast I did notice a slight difference in caracter, but I didn't
take much notice at the time.
Does this mean I have to actually order fresh yeast after only a few
pitches or if I feel very energetic learn the art of yeast propagation,
are these the only alternatives??
Greatful for your reply.

- --
 - jens maudal




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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:31:35 -0400
From: Greg_Young at saunderscollege.com (Greg Young)
Subject: Yield pts of fruit

Greetings, all. Does anyone know of a resource or listing that contains the
yield pts (or estimates) for various types of fruit? I'm sure we could all use
such information for our recipe calculations (well, at least all us 'science
guys,' but let's not go there....) Thanks.


Greg Young
G.Young's Basement Brewery
greg_young at saunderscollege.com

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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:13:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Tang

Dr. Michel writes:
>Dave, you may be correct in *one* instance of what causes malt extract
>`tang'. HSA afaik tastes like butterscotch (diacetyl?) and is probably not

I believe that HSA and diacetyl (yes, butterscotch or buttery) are unrelated.
To my senses, HSA (hot side *aeration*, Dave) results in sherrylike aromas
and flavours and premature staling (papery, wet cardboard).

>responsible for the majority flavor of the `tang'. I liken the flavor to
>coffee, that is instant coffee tastes pretty bad, and instant wort is
>pretty much the same thing IMHO. Full mash brewing tastes better IMHO due
>to the use of primordial ingredients, just like whole bean fresh ground
>coffee tastes better than instant. In the middle we have the partial

A skilled extract brewer can compete with all-grain brewers any day.  If
he/she uses *fresh* *100%-malt* extract, adds crystal malts and dark malts,
and ads their own bittering, flavouring and aroma hops.  The reason that
so many awards are won by all-grain beers is not (IMO) necessarily because
all-grain is better, but rather because the majority of experienced
homebrewers simply have moved to all-grain.

If a homebrewer began as an all-grain brewer and then moved to extract after
two years, I would be willing to bet that the quality would continue to
improve with experience.  I would also be willing to bet that those early
all-grain batches would not be competition contenders whereas someone who
has been brewing several years and brewed an extract batch (taking it
seriously, not a throwaway batch or "something for my cousins who don't
like good beer"), could win in just about any category.

I think the keys (highlighted above) are the extract has to be *fresh*
and it has to be *100% malt*.  Sure, if you take a two-year-old can
of hopped extract off the shelf mix it with a gallon of hot water,
top up with unboiled tapwater and sprinkle some nameless dry yeast on
top, you'll get crap.

Back when I used to own my HB supply shop, I used to brew extract all
the time.  I formulated recipes for my shop and made pre-packaged
(pre-measured crystal/dark malts, bittering, flavouring and aroma hops
along with a 6# bag of extract, quality dry yeast and 1/2 cup corn
sugar) kits.  These kits were based upon recipes that I brewed, that
*won* homebrew competitions (big competitions too, like the Dixie Cup
and the AHA 1st round).

To say you have to brew all-grain to make good beer is simply *wrong*!

Personally, I believe that "extract tang" is due to brewing with old
or mistreated extract.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

P.S.  I feel it's very bad to propagate these "extract makes bad beer"
and "extract brewers are inferior" fallacies.  Go and pull out the last
dozen or two issues of Zymurgy.  Find the column where they get brewers
to brew from extract.  It cracks me up.  Invariably, somewhere in the first
paragraph, the author says "...it's been years since I've brewed an extract
batch..." or "...although I've been brewing all-grain for two years and
seven months..."  They have to cover their butts... as if it's some
evil secret that they would dare to brew from extract...

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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:28:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: bottled water

Jim asks about distilled water.

There's nothing wrong with distilled water for extract brewing, but
a lack of calcium in all-grain brewing with distilled water can
lead to oxalate haze, poor yeast flocculation, poor extraction from
prematurely denaturing enzymes, and probably a few other things I
can't recall off the top of my head.  You need calcium to brew all-grain.

Jim also writes:
>Bottled water offers a source of clean, sanitary, good tasting, and
>ready to use (no chlorine) brewing water.

Do not assume that bottled water *mineral* or *distilled* is sanitary.
There is no guarantee that it doesn't contain lots of wild yeast, moulds
and benign bacteria.  It's sanitary enough to drink, but not sanitary
enough for modern beer production unless you boil it first (or boil
*all* the wort made with it).

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:41:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Whole batch decoction

Fred suggests (for an overnight masher):
>How about a "Whole Batch Decoction" as an idea?  After your mash is
>fully converted, why not bring the whole mash up to a brief boil before
>retiring for the night.  The potential advantages might be:

It could work, but it could also give you starch in your beer.  The reason
that in traditional decoction you only boil the *liquid* part for the
final decoction is because if you released any starch during the mashout
decoction, there would be no enzymes to convert it to sugars/dextrins.

I'd recommend against it.

Al.

(since the HBD is really backed-up, let's limit our quoting and hold off
on non-brewing related posts for a while)

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---