HOMEBREW Digest #2557 Fri 14 November 1997

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  HLP analysis (Exchange)" <bridgess at caemail.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
  Pumps for moving wort - Summary (David C. Harsh)
  Vegie armoa ("John Robinson")
  rescusitating beer (Not flushing) ("John Watts")
  simple sparging tip (Alan Edwards)
  Meat Ale II, Son of Meat (Paul Ward)
  Wyeast Lager strains and higher fermentation temps ("Riedel, Dave")
  Re: Fixing Enamel Pot ("Paul A. Hausman")
  Reusing Bottle Yeast  (Was RE: Maredsous) ("Fogdt, Michael")
  beer (DrewsBrew)
  oxynator ("Raymond Estrella")
  yeast cultures ("Raymond Estrella")
  Belgian Ale Yeasts (Jeremy Price)
  re:parti-gyle/party-girl (DrewsBrew)
  re: Keg Conversion (Grampus)
  What a collective!!!! ("Michael E. Dingas")
  Re: Fixing Enamel Pot (dthayer)
  Wort chilling ("Braam Greyling")
  Citrus beer, unexpected sediment (Chasman)
  re: cold break settle time (Ritter, Sharon/Dan )
  Free 50 ml Erlenmeyer Flasks (Steve Potter)
  Mill rollers (Ralph Link)
  Re: Oxygen Results ("John Robinson")
  Thesis Defence Ale ("Frank Klaassen")
  Adding Cherries to Secondary (arnishj)
  RE: Wort Chilling, End of Test (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Inside Information (MaltyDog)
  Re:  Neoclassical styles (George De Piro)
  What Dave Burley told you, but maybe you forgot, FWH ("David R. Burley")
  Yeast,Grain Mill Motor ("David R. Burley")
  Re: Wort Chilling, End of Test (brian_dixon)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:50:06 -0500 From: "Bridges, Scott (Exchange)" <bridgess at caemail.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> Subject: HLP analysis Dr. Fix writes: >There is an old brewer's phrase which states that "... detrimental >wort infections will occur only if you are brewing in a sewer...". >As one who has been burned over the years in every conceivable way, I tend >to be somewhat skeptical about such remarks. However, I do agree that >other yeast oriented issues are vastly more important to >finished beer quality. The three I discussed at the '92 National >Meeting in Milwaukee (see Beer and Brewing, Vol.12) were the >following: > > 1. Direct cell counting > > 2. Testing viabilities by staining > > 3. Checking for bacteria with elementary methods like HLP. > [snip] >Whenever I mention things like this I usually get flamed by either Chris >Kagy or sometimes others for "taking the fun out of homebrewing". >Here I plead innocent. All the tests are user friendly, and can be >done with a good inexpensive student microscope (and HLP does not even >require that). Besides looking at our yeast up close is a hoot, and >one of the (many!) things I think is fun about brewing. What the >detractors consistly overlook is that gold can not be made from lead. >If one is looking for quality improvements in the beer they are brewing, >then extra effort will be required. At the risk of incurring the wrath of the "artists" in the crowd, can Dr. Fix or someone enlighten me on what is an HLP analysis? I did a quick search through the HBD archives, but found only a couple references to HLP, none really describing what it is or how it is done. >From Dr. Fix's comments, I gather it's a cheap, easy way to confirm whether you have an infected yeast culture. If this has been done recently and I missed it, an email pointer would be appreciated. TIA, Scott Scott Bridges 803-939-6387 Program Manager VP 632-6387 Outsourced Mfg Operations Fax 803-939-7588 NCR Corporation, Columbia, SC Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:13:19 -0500 From: David.Harsh at UC.Edu (David C. Harsh) Subject: Pumps for moving wort - Summary Greetings! Last week I asked about pumps for wort transfer and got several replies; here's the bottom line. No affiliation, I'm not responsible for anything you do, etc., etc., etc. Sources for pumps include: Almost any lab supply company (i.e. Cole Parmer, VWR, etc.) United States Plastic (1-800-537-9724) Grainger (www.grainger.com) "Moving brews" (www.ays.net/movingbrews/) Small March pumps are advertised in US Plastics for around $100 with all stainless steel parts; anything in the world is available from Grainger. One precaution is that you have to know materials to make sure what you want is acceptable for food usage. Lab supply companies are generally more expensive than other sources, people off the street sometimes are not able to make purchases from them. Their pumps are often more specialized, so there are fewer of the type you would actually be interested in. A few members of the collective spoke very highly of Moving Brews, run by Bill Stewart. His prices are quite competitive and he also carries many fittings to go from the pump to tubing or any other material. This might save you a trip somewhere. ONE ISSUE WHERE THERE IS DISAGREEMENT (sorry to shout, but you might have dozed off) is whether the pump should be attached straight out of the kettle or after the chiller. Advantage of before the chiller is ease of sanitization (oops, almost said sterilization and I would have been berated for that). The other school of thought is that drawing a vacuum on the hot wort could cause it to vaporize. Any strong opinions here? That's the rap. Dave P.S. How about keeping the discussion civil, even if you disagree, ok? At the very least, try some decaf! We're not impressed by degrees in science, the arts, or anything else, even if we have them ourselves. &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& & Dave Harsh & & Bloatarian Brewing League; Cincinnati, OH & & Red Green uses duct tape - I prefer Parafilm & &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& O- Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:07:51 +0000 From: "John Robinson" <robinson at novalis.ca> Subject: Vegie armoa Hi Paul, In HBD#2554 you posted: ... >Now I've heard of beers having a vegetative presence, but doesn't >that usually refer to the cooked corn or cabbage aromas of >insufficient diacetyl reduction? .... In my experience, some hops can also produce a definate vegetative prescence, especially when lots of whole hops are used. My most memorable example was an IPA that I used 10 ounces of Styrian Goldings in for a five gallon batch. Not only was that batch *very* bitter (big surprise) it also had a very distinct vegetative aroma. It is my opinion that this came from the hops. While I don't have my copy here at work, Ray Daniels talks about this in his new book Designing Great Beers (awesome book BTW, no affiliation etc) in his chapters on hops. Sorry I can't provide a more specific reference..... - --- John Robinson "When I am working on a problem I never think about beauty. Software Developer I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I NovaLIS Technologies have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know robinson at novalis.ca it is wrong." - Buckminster Fuller (1895-1983) Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:33:01 -0600 From: "John Watts" <watts at top.net> Subject: rescusitating beer (Not flushing) Greetings All, I find myself with a somewhat flat almost Lemon Wheat ale. Sigh. Not wanting to just dump it (My Scottish heritage, not just Eric F's post), I was thinking of dumping it back in the carboy, adding a couple of gallons of fresh wort/yeast, and rebottling it a week or so. Questions 1) Should I mix it all together, or let the fresh wort and yeast make friendly first? 2) Should I go with a high gravity wort, or something close to what I had before? TIA John Watts watts at top.net www.top.net/watts Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:09:32 -0800 From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com> Subject: simple sparging tip There are various methods of pouring the hot water onto the grain during the sparge process. My rule it to keep all of my brewing processes it as simple as possible, unless the simplification makes my beer bad. (It's the KISS rule--"Keep It Simple, Stupid") So, instead of some intricate rotating sprinkling mechanism, I've been just holding a soup ladle level with the top of the liquid in the lauter tun and pouring the water into the ladle. Last time I brewed, an interested friend was helping out, and suggested just floating a tupperware lid on the grain! I just poured the water onto the lid and it kept the grain from being disturbed. It worked like a champ, and freed up a hand! -Alan Alan Edwards (ale at cisco.com) H3CO.____ O CH3 Systems Administration Manager, / \ || | Chile-Head, Homebrewer HO-< >-C-N-C-(CH2)4-C=C-C-CH3 Cisco Systems Inc 408-526-5283 \____/ H2 H H H H Capsaicin Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:11:53 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Ward <paulw at doc.state.vt.us> Subject: Meat Ale II, Son of Meat The other day I posted concerning some wierd aroma/flavor notes I had picked up in a couple of batches. Of primary concern was a meaty aroma in a batch I recently brewed. Raymond Estrella and George De Piro (thanks guys) both mentioned methional as the probable culprit. Raymond called it a methional infection while George referred to it as methional production from a possible too cool ferment. Since this batch also apparently killed my yeast (or at least scared them into hiding), I'd say that the temperature may be a real factor (it does get a little chilly here in Vermont at this time of year). At least I can assume my new wort chiller is up to snuff. Raymond stated he wouldn't drink the beer, I'm not sure I'm willing to go that far, I can get used to just about anything. The question is, how sick will it make me? The strange thing is that I pitched a second batch of the same recipe on the yeast cake in the primary (before I knew about the beefed up beer profile). I tried the first bottle of this second batch last night,...and it was perfect, no off taste at all. Looks like we have a new foe to fight - methional! Paul Ward paulw at doc.state.vt.us - -- You know, I kind of liked Ebeneezer Scrooge before all those ghosts scared the good sense out of him. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:26:14 -0800 From: "Riedel, Dave" <RiedelD at dfo-mpo.gc.ca> Subject: Wyeast Lager strains and higher fermentation temps It looks like my cellar temperature will drop to about 56-58F over the winter. Wyeast lists the following fermentation ranges: 2124 Bohemian 46-54 F 2206 Bavarian 48-58 F 2278 Czech Pils 48-68 F 2308 Munich 48-56 F Note: the *optimum* temperatures are listed as 48-50 F. In light of the recent post by Jeff Renner citing some examples of lager ferments of 58 and 60 F, I've been contemplating doing a series of lagers (by repitching one initial package of Wyeast). First off, Jeff, any new info to share on this topic? Secondly, I'll probably make a Czech Pils, a Vienna or Marzen and a Dunkel (maybe a Helles Bock instead). Which of the above yeasts would be recommended for this list of brews? Any hope of one strain being a good choice for all of these. BTW, I've used the California strain (2112) - I'd like to go with a more traditional type yeast this time. cheers, Dave Riedel, Victoria, BC, Canada Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:50:46 -0500 From: "Paul A. Hausman" <paul at lion.com> Subject: Re: Fixing Enamel Pot > I took the advice of a recent HBD post on fixing an enamel pot and it didn't > come out as expected. Maybe I used the wrong stuff. I used DURO White > Plastic for Porcelain Repair. It didn't say "No Lead", and the max temp was > 350 degrees instead of the 400 quoted in the post. The active ingredient is > Xylene and Petroleum Distillates ( I know, sounds spooky, but I used it > anyway).... > > Question: Are Xylene and Petroleum Distillates a bad idea around food > products? Absolutely! However, these are the *solvents* in the enamel. They evaporate. That's what makes the paint smell bad. Certainly, these would not survive a few boils. What could be of concern are the *pigments* and *fixing agents*. - ---- Paul A. Hausman <paul at lion.com> Lion Technology Inc., Lafayette, NJ, 07848 USA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:56:33 -0600 From: "Fogdt, Michael" <MFogdt01 at sprintspectrum.com> Subject: Reusing Bottle Yeast (Was RE: Maredsous) >Al K. wrote: But seriously, not only should that yeast be usable for >Trappist-style >ales, but since Maredsous is made by the same brewery that makes Duvel >(notice the similarity in the bottle shape?), it could be one of the two >yeasts used to make Duvel. Except for Orval (which is bottled with a blend >of five yeasts), I don't know of any other Belgian brewers who use a >*different* yeast for bottling than they did for fermentation. I am the newest of newbies - in fact I'm a brewing virgin, so to speak. However - I've been lurking for some months now trying to absorb as much info as possible before I take the next step. Most of you scientists are way out of my league, but I'd rather learn from experts than poison myself! Al brings up a point of interest for me re: the yeast in bottles, particularly Hefe-Weizen. I can not get a definitive answer whether the yeast in the bottle is simply for conditioning, or whether it can be used to make a *terrific* wheat beer using authentic German yeast. That would be my ideal first brew - a medium bodied, cloudy and estery (phenolic?) banana- and clove-tasting wheat beer! Any advice is appreciated! > > Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:29:31 -0500 (EST) From: DrewsBrew at aol.com Subject: beer Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 03:17:37 -0400 From: Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Airlock - deadend. As I previously posted, I poured a light colored lager from a keg and left it on my kitchen counter for ~15 hours and found that it had darkened somewhat. After an additional 24 hours the difference was substantially greater. Slightly moreso at 2.5 days. Abridged version Several readers suggest that light may be a culprit here. Someone suggested that the beer became more dense, and so darker as the carbonation was removed. Sorry - the density change is microscopic, and actually the beer should become less dense. My personal pet theory was that there is an oxidation reaction and polymerization of phenolics occurred. I guess I am satisfied that the standard airlock is not at fault, but I am no closer to identifying the actual cause or mechanism of this particular darkening. thanks to the many respondents on this topic, Steve Alexander ********************* As i recall you said that the the beer was poured into two glasses one of which was left out for a few days. couldn't it have gotten infected and thereby changed color? A way you could test both this and the light theory is to go by a 6 - pack of IBC cream soda which comes in clear bottles and has pop top lids I also have 2 questions of my own why does buttwiper (budweiser) only last for 110 days? and what is a cornelius keg Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 97 23:51:12 UT From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at classic.msn.com> Subject: oxynator Hello to all, Charles discusses the pros/cons of the Oxy-nator, >They want you to be able to get 15-20 batches out of that little bottle so you don't feel ripped off........ >A 50# tank for our brewery costs $25. You may be able to get a 5# tank for a lot cheaper than that little oxygenator that they sell. <snip> The only thing I like is the stainless steel diffuser that you get with them. I will add to his comments. The disposable oxygen cylinder that comes with the kits contains one cu ft of oxygen. They cost about $12 to replace from your favorite HB shop, and around $8 at a discount building supply store. As Charles says he gets his 50 lb tank filled for $25, I get my 20 lb tank filled for $12. Quite a price difference. But...... To use a bulk tank like we have you must also have an oxygen regulator. They will run you around $120-140 new, or you can sometimes find one rebuilt in the $60-75 range. You can find sintered steel diffusion stones at home-brew shops also. I use a 2 micron stone called the Carbonator, and there are other brands as well. I gave a talk about aeration and Oxygen use for our club, and my recommendation was to go with the Oxy-nator if you brew 5-10 batches a year, but if you are brewing 10+ a year, or are making 20 gallons at a time, you may want to look into a refillable set-up. Hope that this helps, Ray Estrella Cottage Grove, MN ray-estrella at msn.com ******** Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew. ******** Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 97 23:52:22 UT From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at classic.msn.com> Subject: yeast cultures Alex talks about plating out yeast. >when you spread a plate the >goal is not to have a lawn of microbes, but rather a bunch of individual >colonies that started from individual cells. You should use these >individual colonies to make starters, I am not sure that I agree with this. My understanding, and current practice is to streak a plate so as to isolate a single cell of yeast. then to take a well formed (round) and well separated colony and use it to streak a slant. After growing up the slant I work from it, not the plate. (In fact at this point I discard the plate.) It is a lot easier to avoid contamination working from a slant as there is less area exposed each time that you open it. Have I been going about this wrong for the past few years? Ray Estrella Cottage Grove, MN ray-estrella at msn.com ******** Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew. ******** Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:11:37 -0500 From: Jeremy Price <pricejy at UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU> Subject: Belgian Ale Yeasts I am preparing to brew my first Belgian triple, and I would like some advice on what yeast to use. I have cultured yeast from both a bottle of La Trappe (Holland) and from a bottle of La fin du mond (Canadian) Both of these triples have the friuty, estery flavor profile I am looking for. Has anyone brewed with these yeasts? I am aware that the yeast used for bottle conditioning may not be the yeast used in the primary fermentation. Also, I have been considering just breaking down and using one of the belgian strains from wyeast (Either Belgian ale (1214) or Belgian Abby II (1762)) Can anyone give me an idea as to which strain gives a better flavor profile. Thanks in advance, Jeremy Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:29:25 -0500 (EST) From: DrewsBrew at aol.com Subject: re:parti-gyle/party-girl Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 03:54:59 -0800 From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com> Subject: re: Parti-gyle >>If anyone has an idea how the term Parti-gyle came to be, or perhaps I'm >>mispelling it, I sure would be interested. >Yes, you did misspell indeed! The term for which you are searching is >actually "party-girl"! This is a female person who enjoys home brewed beer, >and pays for equipment, supplies, and ingredients for her favorite home >brewer :^) I even married one 8-) > > Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C. > <Remainder of sig snipped by janitor to reduce quote> Michael's right except in Manhattan it's Party-Goil and in jewish comunities its Party-Goy refering to, of course, a male gentile who enjoys homebrewed beer DrewsBrew at aol.com beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy (=p Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:46:53 -0500 From: Grampus <grampusNOSPAM at InfoAve.Net> Subject: re: Keg Conversion Rich Wood asked: > Does the plug in the side of the keg hold up during the boil > or do I need to weld a plate over the hole? My keg had a wooden bung, not exactly the thing I wanted to have in the = side of my boiling kettle. I had a piece of the top I cut from the keg = welded over the bunghole and over the valve hole in the side of the keg. = Also made some SS handles from a chunk of top and had them welded on at = the same time. Works fine for me! Paul Gennrich Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:16:16 -0500 From: "Michael E. Dingas" <dingasm at worldnet.att.net> Subject: What a collective!!!! I've received many personal replies to a message about high S.G and = cooling wort without a chiller. My thanks to all of you. What I apparently did not make clear about the high S.G. was that a) = the batch WAS 5-gal but b) I took the reading in the cooled brewpot = containing only 3 gallons and c) I did not know how to adjust the = reading for less than the full brew volume. Now I know. Cooling wort also brought many responses. Here again, I choose brevidy = in the question but enjoyed the replies just the same. As I've come to regard you all, even those who shoot first and then = appologize later, you're a fine bunch of beerlings. I can only hope my = expertise improves with experience to where I can offer such fine = advice. Live long and prosper. Oops, I mean "Pop one and belch softly". Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:05:12 -0700 (MST) From: dthayer at netcom.com Subject: Re: Fixing Enamel Pot In HBD 2555, Michael Kowalczyk asks about fixing chipped enamel repair. As far as the Xylene and Petroleum Distillates go, they are not things that you would want to ingest (particularly the xylene), but they are fairly volitile, so there shouldn't be a whole lot left after the paint dries. When I had to repair a chipped pot, I took a different approach. I used some lead-free plumbing solder to tin over the chipped part. This worked pretty well but is probably better suited to larger chips. Dave Thayer Denver, Colorado USA dthayer at netcom.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:30:35 +200 From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azona.com> Subject: Wort chilling Jack wrote: > I guess the yeast business should come as no surprise but > I think it is time to put wort chilling into proper > prospective, i.e., just something else to stimulate > endless discussions and entrepreneurial juices not to > mention delighting the nice folks who sell advertising. To this I disagree strongly. My beer quality got much better after I started chilling with a counterflow chiller. One of the reasons is that chilling helps forming more cold break which helps the yeasties grow. Also, why would the commercial guys and the micro-breweries force chill their wort ? The answer is simple, it makes better beer. Like you say, just my two cents... Braam Greyling I.C. Design Engineer Azona(Pty)Ltd tel +27 12 6641910 fax +27 12 6641393 You can taste a good beer with one sip, but it is better to make thoroughly sure. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:32:21 -0800 From: Chasman <cwhudak at gemini.adnc.com> Subject: Citrus beer, unexpected sediment Christopher asks about grapefruit beer: > 1st Batch 2nd Batch > --------- --------- >FWH 1oz Cascade 1oz Cascade, > 1/2oz Chinook > >Bitter (60min) 1oz Chinook 1oz Centennial, > 1/2oz Chinook > >Flavor (30min) 1oz Chinook, 1oz Chinook > 1oz Centennial > > >Now, my question is I've noticed a strong citrus flavor >in both batches similar to a grapefruit flavor, which >I think is a characteristic of Cascade (I could be wrong), Cascade has a more "piney" flavor/aroma. The "grapefruit" flavor that you are getting is from the Chinook hops. They are well known for having this particular flavor. Dan is concerned about multiple sediment layers: >On Monday I made 2 batches of all-grain beer. <snip> >At 10:00 am the next morning there >was a large amount of sediment in both carboys. I carefuly racked into clean >carboys and pitched my starters. I then set the fridge at 50 deg. to allow >the beer to warm up a bit and get the ferment going. > >Later that day when I checked on them, I saw that a new layer of sediment >had formed in both carboys!! I was quite suprised and somewhat disapointed. >At this point I decided to just let the ferment proceed as is. > Most likely, that is yeast, not additional break material. Even shortly after pitching, yeast will drop to the bottom of the fermentor (especially lager yeast, hence the term "bottom fermenting"). RDWHAHB. ;-) C-- Charles Hudak cwhudak at adnc.com ICQ# 4253902 "If God had intended for us to drink beer, he would have given us stomachs." - --David Daye Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:08:05 -0700 From: ritter at bitterroot.net (Ritter, Sharon/Dan ) Subject: re: cold break settle time Dan Morley writes about the results after racking cooled wort off trub: >Later that day when I checked on them, I saw that a new layer of sediment >had formed in both carboys!! I was quite suprised and somewhat disapointed. >At this point I decided to just let the ferment proceed as is. I first tried racking off the cold trub in a Bohemian Pilsener I had been trying to brew to my personal standard of quality (very high). It never tasted quite right (good not great) until a batch where I racked off the cold trub. Here's how I now brew all my lagers: I pitch my yeast, keep the cooled the wort at 50F for ~8 hours, then very gently rack off the trub into another carboy. I always get another layer of something on the bottom of the carboy after 12 hours which is usually when fermentation activity is starting. Another layer of cold break? I don't know, but I'm going to stick with the process because it seems to make a difference in the final beer. The trick as far as I can tell is to rack off the trub before the yeast kicks in (past the respiration phase). 8-10 hours is about right for me. If one waits to pitch the yeast until *after* racking off the trub then timing is not as big an issue. I pitch my yeast first because I'm nervous about infection and want that yeast working ASAP. Dan Ritter <ritter at bitterroot.net> Ritter's MAMMOTH Brewery - Hamilton, Montana Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:58:26 -0600 From: Steve Potter <spotter at MERITER.COM> Subject: Free 50 ml Erlenmeyer Flasks Dear Collective, I recently came into possession of a large number of 50 ml (yes 50ml, not 500ml) erlenmeyer flasks. They are pyrex and take a number 1 stopper. I think they might be well suited to a first step up from slant for all you yeast ranchers out there. If you like close to Madison, WI , e-mail me to make arrangements to pick up a few. Steve Potter - Madison, WI spotter at meriter.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:18:29 -0600 From: Ralph Link <rlink at minet.gov.mb.ca> Subject: Mill rollers I have been reading "Brew Ware" by Lutzen and Stevens. I am intrested in building the motorized mill they descibe. Although it may be obvious can anyone tell tell how long the 2" dia. steel rollers are required to be. If anyone out there has actually built this unit I would appreciate hearing from them or anyone else with any suggestions. Please respond via e-mail Thanks Ralph Link Ralph Link "Some people dream of success------while others wake up and work at it. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:28:32 +0000 From: "John Robinson" <robinson at novalis.ca> Subject: Re: Oxygen Results In HBD# 2556 you wrote: .... >Bottom line, my fermentation took 24 HOURS to get going! That's much >longer than using my old aquarium pump and stone (from Brewers >Resource). ... In a recent BT article on aeration from various sources, the author made the point that worts with higher disolved oxygen levels actually have longer lag times. This is because the yeast respire longer. >2. After aerating my wort, I poured in my 1.5 quarts of starter. But >I did NOT STIR the mixture. Could that be the cause of my long lag >time? I have never stirred in the past, but my old aquarium pump >system created alot of circulation. Using the O2 did not create any >stirring action. I don't think stirring has anything to do with it. I think you added more O2 than perhaps you should have. >3. Okay, next time.. more O2, of course. No problem... well except >that these cylinders may last for only a few batches... which starts >me thinking: Less O2. :) One 30 second blast is probably quite sufficient. In Ray Daniels' book Designing Great Beers he points out that despite yeasts known requirement for O2, many homebrews make fabulous beer with minimal aeration....Based on my own experience it is possible to over oxygenate the wort, perhaps not technically, but from a practical point of view. If your lag time is 24 hours and your yeast were in good shape, cut back on the O2 until you get what you consider to be acceptable lag times. - --- John Robinson "When I am working on a problem I never think about beauty. Software Developer I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I NovaLIS Technologies have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know robinson at novalis.ca it is wrong." - Buckminster Fuller (1895-1983) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:16:58 -0500 From: "Frank Klaassen" <klaassen at chass.utoronto.ca> Subject: Thesis Defence Ale I'm approaching the PhD defense and have been looking forward to throwing a keg party. Style a similar concern. Perhaps we have a new style in the making? Frank Klaassen klaassen at chass.utoronto.ca Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 97 09:11:41 -0600 From: arnishj at smtplink.dis.anl.gov Subject: Adding Cherries to Secondary I am a new member to the homebrew digest and have a question about adding cherries to beer. I am making a beer and plan to add some cherries during secondary fermentation (the beer is already in primary). The cherries I am getting are already frozen. After I thaw them, do I have to pasturize the cherries or since the beer will be finished with primary fermentation can I add them directly to the secondary fermenters without contamination problems? I was going to put the cherries (zip lock bag included) into near boiling water to pasturize them, but the individual I am getting them from said I would not need to do this since they have been frozen? Any help is appreciated John Arnish Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:18:47 -0600 From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald) Subject: RE: Wort Chilling, End of Test From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net> >I guess the yeast business should come as no surprise but >I think it is time to put wort chilling into proper >prospective, i.e., just something else to stimulate >endless discussions and entrepreneurial juices not to >mention delighting the nice folks who sell advertising. Awh shucks, cancel my order for THE WORLD'S GREATEST CHILLER(TM) :>)) Happy Brewing Ron Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:00:36 -0500 (EST) From: MaltyDog at aol.com Subject: Inside Information Mark D Weaver writes: >Well, I have a rather high placed informant in Belgium (he's Belgian >Royalty) and he informed me that the yeast on the bottom of all those >bottles is not the yeast used to brew the beer with, but another yeast >they add in. Well, then, let's go to Arkansas, find ourselves a cousin of Bill Clinton, and ask him what yeast Anchor Steam uses! He ought to know! Bill Coleman MaltyDog at aol.com <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/MaltyDog/maltind.html">Malted Barley Home Page </A> Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:42:16 -0800 From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) Subject: Re: Neoclassical styles Hi all, Dave talks about expanding the current competition styles to include all sorts of interesting historical beers. The subject of expanding competition styles has been brought up several times recently, so I'll add my .02. In my opinion, the style categories are pretty representative of what is out there. Odd beers, like a "historical porter" can be entered as a specialty beer. You would call it "Classic-style specialty, robust porter with Brettanomyces, etc." The key is to write down as much info as you can about the things that make your beer "special," and make sure that they are noticeable in the brew. The specialty category is a fair "catch all." You have to be lucky enough to get judges that know what they are doing in order to get a decent evaluation, but that is no different from any other category! A big problem with expanding the style categories excessively is that a competition will be broken into so many little parts that there will be too few entries to fill a category (with the exception of stouts and porters). The categories would then be collapsed and your historical porter would be competing against a spiced Christmas ale, just as if it had been entered as a specialty beer! The new category would thus become meaningless. The odds of getting a knowledgeable judge would remain unchanged, too. Also, Pre-Pro Pils (a.k.a., Classic American Pils) and American Amber Ale are already style sub-categories. Enough people brew/enter them to justify them as sub-categories; they still compete against similar beers, though, in their main category. If a "unique" style is entered into enough contests, then the "powers that be" will consider making a new category/subcategory. Otherwise, it's a specialty beer. As far as judges being able to be prepared for "intellectually stimulating" entries, again I'll say it's a crap shoot. If you get a good judge, you'll get good feedback. It is always useful to know what style you will be judging in advance, but that isn't always possible. Some competitions are better organized than others, and a large number of "no show" judges will alter even the best judge coordinator's plans. Have fun! George De Piro (Nyack, NY) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:13:23 -0500 From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: What Dave Burley told you, but maybe you forgot, FWH Brewsters: Thanks to Jason Henning for providing stock numbers for the Clinitest Kit and Tablets. I recommend that you get the kit first time so your drop size will be calibrated to the test. Also, buy additional tablets in the foil packets as the tablets stored in bottles can absorb = water from the air and go inoperative. Thirdly, just in case you misread Jason's comments and think this is a substitute for a hydrometer for OG's (i.e at the beginning of the fermentation) it isn't quite. This test is the classic Fehling's Solution test and it only works on reducible sugars. Sucrose (table sugar) is not a reducible sugar, but all the other sugars in which we are interested are. So any sucrose in a wort will not be detected. In fact, this makes a good way for you to see if those malt extract manufacturers like John Bull are adding sucrose. = After the fermentation when the yeast invertase has converted the sucrose to reducible sugars = and they have been fermented and are no problem this test will be responsive to some dextrins and non-fermentable sugars like lactose - which is why you can get a response of = about 1/4% in a beer that is completely = fermented out. This 1/4% BTW represents about 0.32 ounces of sugar per gallon or = much better than you can read with an hydrometer. Especially one covered with CO2 bubbles buoying it up! Use the hydrometer before the fermentation and the Clinitest afterwards, although I do suggest you try Clinitest before = to compare the tests with your various worts just to get an estimate of the sucrose content of the wort by comparison with your hydrometer. = Why use the Clinitest Kit at all? To avoid the errors from CO2 bubbles in getting an FG. So you will know whether or not you have = a stuck fermentation and what the sugar content is in the beer when you prime it for bottling. - -------------------------------------------------------- Chris's FWH ( first wort hopping) comments and question reminded me of a thought I had some time ago, but didn't get a chance to explore it here. I think that FWH works because the boiling point of the concentrated wort is higher than what the hops normally see in a full wort boil and the resins are softer at this temperature and come out of the hops sooner in rolling boil. = Counter argument is the efficiency of hop extraction with extract at less than full volume boil is lower. However, what if you started with an extract = at high concentration, added hops, = boiled it for, say, 30 minutes and then diluted with boiling water and boiled some more? Any thoughts on that? - --------------------------------------- Keep on brewin' Dave Burley Kinnelon, NJ 07405 103164.3202 at compuserve.com Dave_Burley at compuserve.com = Voice e-mail OK = Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:13:27 -0500 From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Yeast,Grain Mill Motor Brewsters: Laura says:, >According to what I learned at pointy-head > school, yeast multiply better with >a minimum of extra food. With extra food > they go into ethanol/CO2 production. Well, I always thought that an SG of 1.020 for a starter was to minimize the petite body formation possibility. Maybe it is both. Any rationale/evidence for this, at least to me, new information? I always thought that CO2 /ethanol was *always* a by-product with S. Cerevisiae which are anti-Pasteur = in their behavior towards sugar content down to very low sugar levels. S. Cerevisiae is not your common = garden yeast and what you learned at pointy-head school about most yeasts may not always apply here. OTOH, I do seem to recall that in the growing of yeasts for bread making (also a S.Cerevisiae) they do keep the = Sg low and continuously oxygenate the slurry, so I could be convinced.. > feeding them 1 pint per day >until the day before brew day when they > get 1 pint every 12 hours. (starter >substrate: 1# DME per 2 gallons) So an Sg of about 1.020 in your feeder solution and less than 1.010 in your starter and it will get more and more dilute as you go through the process. Seems very low to me and not providing much = sugar and nutrients to the yeast > I hate dumping off the liquid before > I pitch because there >are so many yeast cells suspended in it. If it is an Ale yeast and most lager yeasts, just put the starter in the refrigerator overnight and you can pour off most of the liquid = before you pitch. Especially if your last sugar addition is 24 hours before you pitch > I think the lazy (or dead) ones are >lying on the bottom. Not true, especially for lager yeasts and in your case of low Sg. Depending on the yeast strain they begin to flocculate as the Sg goes down. Thus, for example, some Scottish Ale yeasts need constant rousing to finish because they flocculate at an abnormally high Sg and the beer = would finish sweet otherwise. Lager yeasts are flocculated at nearly all SGs >Using my previous method (dilute wort), > I would get the starter volume >to ~1 quart and then begin adding > small amounts (1/4 pint) of higher gravity >wort. (substrate: 1# DME per 1/2 gallon) > I think my yeast food is too dilute. >By changing the gravity of wort fed, > water is the only thing eliminated, >resulting in the same amount of = >substrate (at the same rate) to the yeast >cells. I think this is a good idea. Add increasing amounts of wort to keep the Sg around 1.020. So if you start off with a feeder wort of Sg of 1.1 and assume that the yeast can consume about an amount of wort of Sg of 1.020 in 12 hours, then bumping the SG to about 1.020 every 12 hours is a reasonable approach. = Thus: 1 pint starter at 1.020 plus activated Wyeast packet to start. After each nth12 hours: n Total volume (pts). Vol added 1 1pt` 1/4 pint 2 1.25 1/3 pint 3 1.58 1/2 pint 4 2.0 1/2 pint 5 2.5 2/3 pint 6 3.0 3/4 pint 7 33/4 = >A comment about my present method.... > I don't often see my starters evolve >any CO2. The airlocks seldom bubble > and there is no foam on the top, only >small, floating clusters of bubbles. > They are usually very cloudy with an >obvious cake of yeast on the bottom. This is understandable, perhaps, since the yeast deplete the small amount of sugar you have been adding in your present procedure before the water gets saturated with CO2 and it happens so quickly you may not be around. Does anyone have any thoughts about adding nutrients? If the beer above = the yeast can be discarded before pitching it seems to me this could be a good idea to use nutrients. - ------------------------------------------------- A reader asks: > has anyone >determined the torque requirements > of a typical homebrew grain mill? My Power Drill does an admirable job with my two roll mill. I use it as a direct drive, since I built a key from a 3/8" bolt to fit the slot where the handle used to be. This key goes into the chuck. I also have a safety device. If the drill hits a piece of some non-malt substance = ( happened once in lots of batches) the drill motor rolls over and pulls the plug. When you hook up your motor do it through some kind of shear pin or clutch device. - ------------------------------------------------- Keep on brewin' Dave Burley Kinnelon, NJ 07405 103164.3202 at compuserve.com Dave_Burley at compuserve.com = Voice e-mail OK = Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 97 08:53:43 -0800 From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com Subject: Re: Wort Chilling, End of Test [snip] >I experimented with >two variations on my standard procedure which if they caused >no problems, would greatly simplify my brewing process. > [snip] >This season I started each >batch with about a gallon of sludge saved from the previous >batch. > >Change No.2 was eliminating the forced chilling of wort. I >simply put the lid on the kettle shortly after end of boil >and transfered to the fermenter in the morning. > >All my beers (including one made in March) received the usual >rave reviews at our Third Annual Octoberfest/Star Party. >Furthermore, at no time did I or my wife notice anything >unusual about any of our beers over the summer. > >I guess the yeast business should come as no surprise but >I think it is time to put wort chilling into proper >prospective, i.e., just something else to stimulate >endless discussions and entrepreneurial juices not to >mention delighting the nice folks who sell advertising. > >js The taste testing you mention is really not adequate. You'd have to do side by side tests, e.g. two identical batches of each beer, brewed together, pitched in the same way, fermented in the same way etc., but with the only difference between the two being the lack of a chiller. In addition, you seem to draw strong conclusions about the use of a chiller, but ignore the fact that you radically changed your method of pitching in a way that is known to work very well, and may be helping to confound your results. My conclusion is that you may be right about the chiller, but you may also be wrong, and that your so-called test procedure above confounds the results dramatically enough that it is not possible to draw anything conclusive. Maybe you could design a batch of beer that is on the light side, so you could taste something like DMS in it, then brew two identical batches side by side and only change the method of chilling? Then do a taste test and send your brews in for DMS testing? Brian ....................................................................... Item Subject: WINMAIL.DAT Couldn't convert Microsoft Mail Message Data item to text at a gateway. Return to table of contents
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