---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  HLP analysis (Exchange)" <bridgess at caemail.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
  Pumps for moving wort - Summary (David C. Harsh)
  Vegie armoa ("John Robinson")
  rescusitating beer (Not flushing) ("John Watts")
  simple sparging tip (Alan Edwards)
  Meat Ale II, Son of Meat (Paul Ward)
  Wyeast Lager strains and higher fermentation temps ("Riedel, Dave")
  Re: Fixing Enamel Pot ("Paul A. Hausman")
  Reusing Bottle Yeast  (Was RE: Maredsous) ("Fogdt, Michael")
  beer (DrewsBrew)
  oxynator ("Raymond Estrella")
  yeast cultures ("Raymond Estrella")
  Belgian Ale Yeasts (Jeremy Price)
  re:parti-gyle/party-girl (DrewsBrew)
  re: Keg Conversion (Grampus)
  What a collective!!!! ("Michael E. Dingas")
  Re: Fixing Enamel Pot (dthayer)
  Wort chilling ("Braam Greyling")
  Citrus beer, unexpected sediment (Chasman)
  re: cold break settle time (Ritter, Sharon/Dan )
  Free 50 ml Erlenmeyer Flasks (Steve Potter)
  Mill rollers (Ralph Link)
  Re: Oxygen Results ("John Robinson")
  Thesis Defence Ale ("Frank Klaassen")
  Adding Cherries to Secondary (arnishj)
  RE: Wort Chilling, End of Test (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Inside Information (MaltyDog)
  Re:  Neoclassical styles (George De Piro)
  What Dave Burley told you, but maybe you forgot, FWH ("David R. Burley")
  Yeast,Grain Mill Motor ("David R. Burley")
  Re: Wort Chilling, End of Test (brian_dixon)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:50:06 -0500
From: "Bridges, Scott (Exchange)" <bridgess at caemail.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
Subject: HLP analysis


Dr. Fix writes:

>There is an old brewer's phrase which states that "... detrimental 
>wort  infections will occur only if you are brewing in a sewer...".
>As one who has been burned over the years in every conceivable way, I
tend 
>to be somewhat skeptical about such remarks. However, I do agree that
>other yeast oriented issues are vastly more important to
>finished beer quality. The three I discussed at the '92 National
>Meeting in Milwaukee (see Beer and Brewing, Vol.12) were the
>following:
>    
>     1. Direct cell counting
>
>     2. Testing viabilities by staining
>
>     3. Checking for bacteria with elementary methods like HLP.
>
[snip]
>Whenever I mention things like this I usually get flamed by either
Chris 
>Kagy or sometimes others for "taking the fun out of homebrewing".
>Here I plead innocent. All the tests are user friendly, and can be
>done with a good inexpensive student microscope (and HLP does not even
>require that). Besides looking at our yeast up close is a hoot, and 
>one of the (many!) things I think is fun about brewing. What the
>detractors consistly overlook is that gold can not be made from lead.
>If one is looking for quality improvements in the beer they are
brewing,
>then extra effort will be required.

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the "artists" in the crowd, can
Dr. Fix or someone enlighten me on what is an HLP analysis?  I did a
quick search through the HBD archives, but found only a couple
references to HLP, none really describing what it is or how it is done.
>From Dr. Fix's comments, I gather it's a cheap, easy way to confirm
whether you have an infected yeast culture.  If this has been done
recently and I missed it, an email pointer would be appreciated.


TIA,
Scott


Scott Bridges					803-939-6387
Program Manager				VP 632-6387
Outsourced Mfg Operations		Fax 803-939-7588
NCR Corporation, Columbia, SC






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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:13:19 -0500
From: David.Harsh at UC.Edu (David C. Harsh)
Subject: Pumps for moving wort - Summary

Greetings!
        Last week I asked about pumps for wort transfer and got several
replies;  here's the bottom line.  No affiliation, I'm not responsible for
anything you do, etc., etc., etc.

Sources for pumps include:
        Almost any lab supply company (i.e. Cole Parmer, VWR, etc.)
        United States Plastic (1-800-537-9724)
        Grainger (www.grainger.com)
        "Moving brews"  (www.ays.net/movingbrews/)

Small March pumps are advertised in US Plastics for around $100 with all
stainless steel parts; anything in the world is available from Grainger.
One precaution is that you have to know materials to make sure what you
want is acceptable for food usage.

Lab supply companies are generally more expensive than other sources,
people off the street sometimes are not able to make purchases from them.
Their pumps are often more specialized, so there are fewer of the type you
would actually be interested in.

A few members of the collective spoke very highly of Moving Brews, run by
Bill Stewart.  His prices are quite competitive and he also carries many
fittings to go from the pump to tubing or any other material.  This might
save you a trip somewhere.

ONE ISSUE WHERE THERE IS DISAGREEMENT (sorry to shout, but you might have
dozed off) is whether the pump should be attached straight out of the
kettle or after the chiller.  Advantage of before the chiller is ease of
sanitization (oops, almost said sterilization and I would have been berated
for that).  The other school of thought is that drawing a vacuum on the hot
wort could cause it to vaporize.  Any strong opinions here?

That's the rap.

Dave
P.S.  How about keeping the discussion civil, even if you disagree, ok?  At
the very least, try some decaf!  We're not impressed by degrees in science,
the arts, or anything else, even if we have them ourselves.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
&                  Dave Harsh                    &
&   Bloatarian Brewing League; Cincinnati, OH    &
&  Red Green uses duct tape - I prefer Parafilm  &
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
                     O-



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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:07:51 +0000
From: "John Robinson" <robinson at novalis.ca>
Subject: Vegie armoa

Hi Paul,

In HBD#2554 you posted:

 ...
>Now I've heard of beers having a vegetative presence, but doesn't 
>that usually refer to the cooked corn or cabbage aromas of 
>insufficient diacetyl reduction?  
 ....

In my experience, some hops can also produce a definate vegetative 
prescence, especially when lots of whole hops are used.  My most 
memorable example was an IPA that I used 10 ounces of Styrian 
Goldings in for a five gallon batch.  Not only was that batch 
*very* bitter (big surprise) it also had a very distinct vegetative 
aroma.  It is my opinion that this came from the hops.  

While I don't have my copy here at work, Ray Daniels talks about this 
in his new book Designing Great Beers (awesome book BTW, no 
affiliation etc) in his chapters on hops.  Sorry I can't provide a 
more specific reference.....

- ---
John Robinson       "When I am working on a problem I never think about beauty.
Software Developer   I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I
NovaLIS Technologies have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know
robinson at novalis.ca  it is wrong." - Buckminster Fuller (1895-1983)

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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:33:01 -0600
From: "John Watts" <watts at top.net>
Subject: rescusitating beer (Not flushing)

Greetings All,

I find myself with a somewhat flat almost Lemon Wheat ale.  Sigh.
Not wanting to just dump it (My Scottish heritage, not just Eric F's post), I 
was thinking of dumping it back in the carboy, adding a couple of gallons of 
fresh wort/yeast, and rebottling it a week or so.

Questions
1) Should I mix it all together, or let the fresh wort and yeast make friendly 
first?
2) Should I go with a high gravity wort, or something close to what I had 
before?

TIA
John Watts
watts at top.net
www.top.net/watts

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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:09:32 -0800
From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com>
Subject: simple sparging tip

There are various methods of pouring the hot water onto the grain during
the sparge process.

My rule it to keep all of my brewing processes it as simple as possible,
unless the simplification makes my beer bad.  (It's the KISS rule--"Keep
It Simple, Stupid") So, instead of some intricate rotating sprinkling
mechanism, I've been just holding a soup ladle level with the top of the
liquid in the lauter tun and pouring the water into the ladle.

Last time I brewed, an interested friend was helping out, and suggested
just floating a tupperware lid on the grain!  I just poured the water
onto the lid and it kept the grain from being disturbed.  It worked like a
champ, and freed up a hand!

 -Alan

Alan Edwards (ale at cisco.com)    H3CO.____       O            CH3
Systems Administration Manager,     /    \      ||           |
Chile-Head, Homebrewer          HO-<      >-C-N-C-(CH2)4-C=C-C-CH3
Cisco Systems Inc  408-526-5283     \____/ H2 H          H H H     Capsaicin

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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:11:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Ward <paulw at doc.state.vt.us>
Subject: Meat Ale II, Son of Meat

The other day I posted concerning some wierd aroma/flavor notes I had
picked up in a couple of batches.  Of primary concern was a meaty
aroma in a batch I recently brewed.  

Raymond Estrella and George De Piro (thanks guys) both mentioned 
methional as the probable culprit.  Raymond called it a methional 
infection while George referred to it as methional production from a 
possible too cool ferment.  Since this batch also apparently killed my 
yeast (or at least scared them into hiding), I'd say that the temperature may
be a real factor (it does get a little chilly here in Vermont at this
time of year).  At least I can assume my new wort chiller is up to
snuff.  Raymond stated he wouldn't drink the beer, I'm not
sure I'm willing to go that far, I can get used to just about
anything.  The question is, how sick will it make me?

The strange thing is that I pitched a second batch of the same recipe
on the yeast cake in the primary (before I knew about the beefed up
beer profile).  I tried the first bottle of this second batch last
night,...and it was perfect, no off taste at all.

Looks like we have a new foe to fight - methional!

Paul Ward

paulw at doc.state.vt.us
				
- -- 
You know, I kind of liked Ebeneezer Scrooge before
all those ghosts scared the good sense out of him.

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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:26:14 -0800
From: "Riedel, Dave" <RiedelD at dfo-mpo.gc.ca>
Subject: Wyeast Lager strains and higher fermentation temps

It looks like my cellar temperature will drop to about 56-58F over the
winter.  Wyeast lists the following fermentation ranges:

2124 Bohemian		46-54 F
2206 Bavarian		48-58 F
2278 Czech Pils		48-68 F
2308 Munich		48-56 F

Note: the *optimum* temperatures are listed as 48-50 F.

In light of the recent post by Jeff Renner citing some examples of
lager ferments of 58 and 60 F, I've been contemplating doing a
series of lagers (by repitching one initial package of Wyeast).

First off, Jeff, any new info to share on this topic?  

Secondly,  I'll probably make a Czech Pils, a Vienna or Marzen 
and a Dunkel (maybe a Helles Bock instead).  Which of the above
yeasts would be recommended for this list of brews?  Any hope of
one strain being a good choice for all of these.  BTW, I've used the 
California strain (2112) - I'd like to go with a more traditional type 
yeast this time.

cheers,
Dave Riedel, Victoria, BC, Canada

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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:50:46 -0500
From: "Paul A. Hausman" <paul at lion.com>
Subject: Re: Fixing Enamel Pot

> I took the advice of a recent HBD post on fixing an enamel pot and it didn't
> come out as expected.  Maybe I used the wrong stuff.  I used DURO White
> Plastic for Porcelain Repair.   It didn't say "No Lead", and the max temp
was
> 350 degrees instead of the 400 quoted in the post.  The active ingredient is
> Xylene and Petroleum Distillates ( I know, sounds spooky, but I used it
> anyway)....
> 
> Question: Are Xylene and Petroleum Distillates a bad idea around food
> products?

Absolutely! However, these are the *solvents* in the enamel. They
evaporate.  That's what makes the paint smell bad.  Certainly, these
would not survive a few boils.  What could be of concern are the 
*pigments* and *fixing agents*.
- ----
Paul A. Hausman                <paul at lion.com>
Lion Technology Inc., Lafayette, NJ, 07848 USA

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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:56:33 -0600
From: "Fogdt, Michael" <MFogdt01 at sprintspectrum.com>
Subject: Reusing Bottle Yeast  (Was RE: Maredsous)

>Al K. wrote: But seriously, not only should that yeast be usable for
>Trappist-style
>ales, but since Maredsous is made by the same brewery that makes Duvel
>(notice the similarity in the bottle shape?), it could be one of the two
>yeasts used to make Duvel.  Except for Orval (which is bottled with a blend
>of five yeasts), I don't know of any other Belgian brewers who use a
>*different* yeast for bottling than they did for fermentation.

I am the newest of newbies - in fact I'm a brewing virgin, so to speak.
However - I've been lurking for some months now trying to absorb as much
info as possible before I take the next step. Most of you scientists are
way out of my league, but I'd rather learn from experts than poison
myself!

Al brings up a point of interest for me re: the yeast in bottles,
particularly Hefe-Weizen. I can not get a definitive answer whether the
yeast in the bottle is simply for conditioning, or whether it can be
used to make a *terrific* wheat beer using authentic German yeast. That
would be my ideal first brew - a medium bodied, cloudy and estery
(phenolic?) banana- and clove-tasting wheat beer!

Any advice is appreciated!


>
>

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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:29:31 -0500 (EST)
From: DrewsBrew at aol.com
Subject: beer

Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 03:17:37 -0400
From: Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Airlock - deadend.

As I previously posted, I poured a light colored lager from a keg and
left it on my kitchen counter for ~15 hours and found that it had
darkened somewhat. After an additional 24 hours the difference was
substantially greater. Slightly moreso at 2.5 days.


Abridged version
Several readers suggest that light may be a culprit here.

Someone suggested that the beer became more dense, and so darker as the
carbonation was removed.  Sorry - the density change is microscopic, and
actually the beer should become less dense.

My personal pet theory was that there is an oxidation reaction and
polymerization of phenolics occurred.

I guess I am satisfied that the standard airlock is not at fault, but I
am no closer to identifying the actual cause or mechanism of this
particular darkening.

thanks to the many respondents on this topic,
Steve Alexander

*********************
As i recall you said that the the beer was poured into two glasses  one of
which was left out for a few days. couldn't it have gotten infected and
thereby changed color? A way you could test both this and the light theory is
to go by a 6 - pack of IBC cream soda which comes in clear bottles and has
pop top lids


I also have 2 questions of my own why does buttwiper (budweiser) only last
for 110 days? and what is a cornelius keg

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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 97 23:51:12 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at classic.msn.com>
Subject: oxynator

 Hello to all, Charles discusses the pros/cons of the Oxy-nator,
>They want you to be able to get 15-20 batches out of that little 
bottle so you don't feel ripped off........
>A 50# tank for our brewery costs $25.  You may be able to get 
a 5# tank for a lot cheaper than that little oxygenator that they sell.
<snip> The only thing I like is the stainless steel diffuser that you 
get with them.

  I will add to his comments. The disposable oxygen cylinder that
comes with the kits contains one cu ft of oxygen.  They cost about 
$12 to replace from your favorite HB shop, and around $8 at a
discount building supply store.  As Charles says he gets his 50 lb
tank filled for $25, I get my 20 lb tank filled for $12.  Quite a price 
difference.  But......
  To use a bulk tank like we have you must also have an oxygen
regulator.  They will run you around $120-140 new, or you can
sometimes find one rebuilt in the $60-75 range. You can find 
sintered steel diffusion stones at home-brew shops also. I use a 
2 micron stone called the Carbonator, and there are other brands 
as well. I gave a talk about aeration and Oxygen use for our club,
and my recommendation was to go with the Oxy-nator if you brew
5-10 batches a year, but if you are brewing 10+ a year, or are 
making 20 gallons at a time, you may want to look into a refillable
set-up.
  Hope that this helps,

Ray Estrella
Cottage Grove,  MN
ray-estrella at msn.com

******** Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew. ********



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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 97 23:52:22 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at classic.msn.com>
Subject: yeast cultures

Alex talks about plating out yeast.
>when you spread a plate the
>goal is not to have a lawn of microbes, but rather a bunch of individual
>colonies that started from individual cells.  You should use these
>individual colonies to make starters, 

  I am not sure that I agree with this.  My understanding, and current
practice is to streak a plate so as to isolate a single cell of yeast.  then
to take a well formed (round) and well separated colony and use it to 
streak a slant.  After growing up the slant I work from it, not the plate.
(In fact at this point I discard the plate.)  It is a lot easier to avoid
contamination working from a slant as there is less area exposed each
time that you open it.  Have I been going about this wrong for the past
few years?

Ray Estrella
Cottage Grove,  MN
ray-estrella at msn.com

******** Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew. ********


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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:11:37 -0500
From: Jeremy Price <pricejy at UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Belgian Ale Yeasts


I am preparing to brew my first Belgian triple, and I would like some
advice on what yeast to use. I have cultured yeast from both a bottle of La
Trappe (Holland) and from a bottle of La fin du mond (Canadian) Both of
these triples have the friuty, estery flavor profile I am looking for.
Has anyone brewed with  these yeasts? I am aware that the yeast used for
bottle conditioning may not be the yeast used in the primary fermentation. 
	Also, I have been considering just breaking down and using one of the
belgian strains from wyeast (Either Belgian ale (1214) or Belgian Abby II
(1762)) Can anyone give me an idea as to which strain gives a better flavor
profile. 


Thanks in advance,

Jeremy 

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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:29:25 -0500 (EST)
From: DrewsBrew at aol.com
Subject: re:parti-gyle/party-girl

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 03:54:59 -0800
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: re: Parti-gyle

>>If anyone has an idea how the term Parti-gyle came to be, or perhaps I'm
>>mispelling it, I sure would be interested.

>Yes, you did misspell indeed! The term for which you are searching is
>actually "party-girl"! This is a female person who enjoys home brewed beer,
>and pays for equipment, supplies, and ingredients for her favorite home
>brewer :^) I even married one 8-)
>
>			    Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C.
>           <Remainder of sig snipped by janitor to reduce quote>

Michael's right except in Manhattan it's Party-Goil
and in jewish comunities its Party-Goy refering to, of course, a male 
gentile who enjoys homebrewed beer 

DrewsBrew at aol.com
beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy (=p

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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:46:53 -0500
From: Grampus <grampusNOSPAM at InfoAve.Net>
Subject: re: Keg Conversion

Rich Wood asked:

> Does the plug in the side of the keg hold up during the boil
> or do I need to weld a plate over the hole?

My keg had a wooden bung, not exactly the thing I wanted to have in the =
side of my boiling kettle.  I had a piece of the top I cut from the keg =
welded over the bunghole and over the valve hole in the side of the keg. =
 Also made some SS handles from a chunk of top and had them welded on at =
the same time.  Works fine for me!

Paul Gennrich




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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:16:16 -0500
From: "Michael E. Dingas" <dingasm at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: What a collective!!!!

	I've received many personal replies to a message about high S.G and =
cooling wort without a chiller. My thanks to all of you.
	What I apparently did not make clear about the high S.G. was that a) =
the batch WAS 5-gal but b) I took the reading in the cooled brewpot =
containing only 3 gallons and c) I did not know how to adjust the =
reading for less than the full brew volume. Now I know.
	Cooling wort also brought many responses. Here again, I choose brevidy =
in the question but enjoyed the replies just the same.
	As I've come to regard you all, even those who shoot first and then =
appologize later, you're a fine bunch of beerlings. I can only hope my =
expertise improves with experience to where I can offer such fine =
advice. Live long and prosper. Oops, I mean "Pop one and belch softly".

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Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:05:12 -0700 (MST)
From: dthayer at netcom.com
Subject: Re: Fixing Enamel Pot

In HBD 2555, Michael Kowalczyk asks about fixing chipped enamel repair. 

As far as the Xylene and Petroleum Distillates go, they are not things
that you would want to ingest (particularly the xylene), but they are
fairly volitile, so there shouldn't be a whole lot left after the paint
dries. 

When I had to repair a chipped pot, I took a different approach. I
used some lead-free plumbing solder to tin over the chipped part. This
worked pretty well but is probably better suited to larger chips.

Dave Thayer
Denver, Colorado USA
dthayer at netcom.com


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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:30:35 +200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azona.com>
Subject: Wort chilling

Jack wrote:

> I guess the yeast business should come as no surprise but
> I think it is time to put wort chilling into proper
> prospective, i.e., just something else to stimulate
> endless discussions and entrepreneurial juices not to
> mention delighting the nice folks who sell advertising.

To this I disagree strongly. My beer quality got much better after I 
started chilling with a counterflow chiller. One of the reasons is 
that chilling helps forming more cold break which helps the yeasties 
grow. 
Also, why would the commercial guys and the micro-breweries 
force chill their wort ?  
The answer is simple, it makes better beer.

Like you say, just my two cents...

Braam Greyling    I.C. Design Engineer
Azona(Pty)Ltd     
tel +27 12 6641910  fax +27 12 6641393

You can taste a good beer with one sip, 
but it is better to make thoroughly sure.

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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:32:21 -0800
From: Chasman <cwhudak at gemini.adnc.com>
Subject: Citrus beer, unexpected sediment

Christopher asks about grapefruit beer:

>                   1st Batch            2nd Batch 
>                   ---------            ---------
>FWH                1oz Cascade          1oz Cascade,
>                                        1/2oz Chinook
>
>Bitter (60min)     1oz Chinook          1oz Centennial,
>                                        1/2oz Chinook
>
>Flavor (30min)     1oz Chinook,         1oz Chinook
>                   1oz Centennial
>
>
>Now, my question is I've noticed a strong citrus flavor
>in both batches similar to a grapefruit flavor, which
>I think is a characteristic of Cascade (I could be wrong),

Cascade has a more "piney" flavor/aroma. The "grapefruit" flavor that you
are getting is from the Chinook hops. They are well known for having this
particular flavor. 

Dan is concerned about multiple sediment layers:


>On Monday I made 2 batches of all-grain beer.
<snip>
>At 10:00 am the next morning there
>was a large amount of sediment in both carboys. I carefuly racked into clean
>carboys and pitched my starters. I then set the fridge at 50 deg. to allow
>the beer to warm up a bit and get the ferment going.
>
>Later that day when I checked on them, I saw that a new layer of sediment
>had formed in both carboys!! I was quite suprised and somewhat disapointed.
>At this point I decided to just let the ferment proceed as is.
>

Most likely, that is yeast, not additional break material. Even shortly
after pitching, yeast will drop to the bottom  of the fermentor (especially
lager yeast, hence the term "bottom fermenting"). RDWHAHB.  ;-)


C--

Charles Hudak
cwhudak at adnc.com
ICQ# 4253902
"If God had intended for us to drink beer, he would have given us stomachs."
- --David Daye



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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:08:05 -0700
From: ritter at bitterroot.net (Ritter, Sharon/Dan )
Subject: re: cold break settle time

Dan Morley writes about the results after racking cooled wort off trub:

>Later that day when I checked on them, I saw that a new layer of sediment
>had formed in both carboys!! I was quite suprised and somewhat disapointed.
>At this point I decided to just let the ferment proceed as is.

I first tried racking off the cold trub in a Bohemian Pilsener I had been
trying to brew to my personal standard of quality (very high). It never
tasted quite right (good not great) until a batch where I racked off the
cold trub. Here's how I now brew all my lagers: I pitch my yeast, keep the
cooled the wort at 50F for ~8 hours, then very gently rack off the trub
into another carboy. I always get another layer of something on the bottom
of the carboy after 12 hours which is usually when fermentation activity is
starting. Another layer of cold break? I don't know, but I'm going to stick
with the process because it seems to make a difference in the final beer.

The trick as far as I can tell is to rack off the trub before the yeast
kicks in (past the respiration phase). 8-10 hours is about right for me. If
one waits to pitch the yeast until *after* racking off the trub then timing
is not as big an issue. I pitch my yeast first because I'm nervous about
infection and want that yeast working ASAP.

Dan Ritter <ritter at bitterroot.net>
Ritter's MAMMOTH Brewery - Hamilton, Montana



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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:58:26 -0600
From: Steve Potter <spotter at MERITER.COM>
Subject: Free 50 ml Erlenmeyer Flasks

Dear Collective,
I recently came into possession of a large number of 50 ml (yes 50ml,
not 500ml) erlenmeyer flasks.  They are pyrex and take a number 1
stopper.  I think they might be well suited to a first step up from slant for
all you yeast ranchers out there.  If you like close to Madison, WI , e-mail
me to make arrangements to pick up a few.

Steve Potter - Madison, WI
spotter at meriter.com

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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:18:29 -0600
From: Ralph Link <rlink at minet.gov.mb.ca>
Subject: Mill rollers 

I have been reading "Brew Ware" by Lutzen and Stevens. I am intrested in
building the motorized mill they descibe. Although it may be obvious can
anyone tell tell how long the 2" dia. steel rollers are required to be. If
anyone out there has actually built this unit I would appreciate hearing
from them or anyone else with any suggestions. Please respond via e-mail 
Thanks 
Ralph Link 
Ralph Link
"Some people dream of success------while others wake up and work at it.


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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:28:32 +0000
From: "John Robinson" <robinson at novalis.ca>
Subject: Re: Oxygen Results

In HBD# 2556 you wrote:

 ....
>Bottom line, my fermentation took 24 HOURS to get going! That's much
>longer than using my old aquarium pump and stone (from Brewers
>Resource).
 ...

In a recent BT article on aeration from various sources, the author 
made the point that worts with higher disolved oxygen levels actually 
have longer lag times.  This is because the yeast respire longer.


>2. After aerating my wort, I poured in my 1.5 quarts of starter. But 
>I did NOT STIR the mixture. Could that be the cause of my long lag 
>time? I have never stirred in the past, but my old aquarium pump 
>system created alot of circulation. Using the O2 did not create any 
>stirring action.

I don't think stirring has anything to do with it.  I think you added 
more O2 than perhaps you should have.

>3. Okay, next time.. more O2, of course. No problem... well except
>that these cylinders may last for only a few batches... which starts
>me thinking:

Less O2. :)  One 30 second blast is probably quite sufficient.  In 
Ray Daniels' book Designing Great Beers he points out that despite 
yeasts known requirement for O2, many homebrews make fabulous beer 
with minimal aeration....Based on my own experience it is possible to 
over oxygenate the wort, perhaps not technically, but from a 
practical point of view.  If your lag time is 24 hours and your yeast 
were in good shape, cut back on the O2 until you get what you 
consider to be acceptable lag times.

- ---
John Robinson       "When I am working on a problem I never think about beauty.
Software Developer   I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I
NovaLIS Technologies have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know
robinson at novalis.ca  it is wrong." - Buckminster Fuller (1895-1983)

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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 05:16:58 -0500
From: "Frank Klaassen" <klaassen at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Thesis Defence Ale

I'm approaching the PhD defense and have been looking forward to throwing a
keg party. Style a similar concern. Perhaps we have a new style in the
making?

Frank Klaassen
klaassen at chass.utoronto.ca

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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 97 09:11:41 -0600
From: arnishj at smtplink.dis.anl.gov
Subject: Adding Cherries to Secondary


     I am a new member to the homebrew digest and have a question 
     about adding cherries to beer.  
     
     I am making a beer and plan to add some cherries during secondary 
     fermentation (the beer is already in primary).  The cherries I am 
     getting are already frozen.  After I thaw them, do I have to 
     pasturize the cherries or since the beer will be finished with 
     primary fermentation can I add them directly to the secondary 
     fermenters without contamination problems?  
     
     I was going to put the cherries (zip lock bag included) into near 
     boiling water to pasturize them, but the individual I am getting 
     them from said I would not need to do this since they have been 
     frozen?  Any help is appreciated
     
     John Arnish



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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:18:47 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Wort Chilling, End of Test

From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>

>I guess the yeast business should come as no surprise but
>I think it is time to put wort chilling into proper
>prospective, i.e., just something else to stimulate
>endless discussions and entrepreneurial juices not to
>mention delighting the nice folks who sell advertising.

Awh shucks, cancel my order for THE WORLD'S GREATEST CHILLER(TM)
    :>))

Happy Brewing

Ron



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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:00:36 -0500 (EST)
From: MaltyDog at aol.com
Subject: Inside Information

Mark D Weaver writes:

>Well, I have a rather high placed informant in Belgium (he's Belgian
>Royalty) and he informed me that the yeast on the bottom of all those
>bottles is not the yeast used to brew the beer with, but another yeast
>they add in.

Well, then, let's go to Arkansas, find ourselves a cousin of Bill Clinton,
and ask him what yeast Anchor Steam uses! He ought to know!

Bill Coleman
MaltyDog at aol.com
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/MaltyDog/maltind.html">Malted Barley Home Page
</A>


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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:42:16 -0800
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: Re:  Neoclassical styles

     Hi all,
     
     Dave talks about expanding the current competition styles to include 
     all sorts of interesting historical beers.  The subject of expanding 
     competition styles has been brought up several times recently, so I'll 
     add my .02.
     
     In my opinion, the style categories are pretty representative of what 
     is out there.  Odd beers, like a "historical porter" can be entered as 
     a specialty beer.  You would call it "Classic-style specialty, robust 
     porter with Brettanomyces, etc."
     
     The key is to write down as much info as you can about the things that 
     make your beer "special," and make sure that they are noticeable in 
     the brew.  The specialty category is a fair "catch all."  You have to 
     be lucky enough to get judges that know what they are doing in order 
     to get a decent evaluation, but that is no different from any other 
     category!  
     
     A big problem with expanding the style categories excessively is that 
     a competition will be broken into so many little parts that there will 
     be too few entries to fill a category (with the exception of stouts 
     and porters).  The categories would then be collapsed and your 
     historical porter would be competing against a spiced Christmas ale, 
     just as if it had been entered as a specialty beer!  The new category 
     would thus become meaningless.  The odds of getting a knowledgeable 
     judge would remain unchanged, too.
     
     Also, Pre-Pro Pils (a.k.a., Classic American Pils) and American Amber 
     Ale are already style sub-categories.  Enough people brew/enter them 
     to justify them as sub-categories; they still compete against similar 
     beers, though, in their main category.  If a "unique" style is entered 
     into enough contests, then the "powers that be" will consider making a 
     new category/subcategory.  Otherwise, it's a specialty beer.
     
     As far as judges being able to be prepared for "intellectually 
     stimulating" entries, again I'll say it's a crap shoot.  If you get a 
     good judge, you'll get good feedback.  It is always useful to know 
     what style you will be judging in advance, but that isn't always 
     possible.  Some competitions are better organized than others, and a 
     large number of "no show" judges will alter even the best judge 
     coordinator's plans.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:13:23 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: What Dave Burley told you, but maybe you forgot, FWH

Brewsters:

Thanks to Jason Henning for providing
stock numbers for the Clinitest Kit and Tablets.

I recommend that you get the kit first time
so your drop size will be calibrated to the test.
Also, buy additional tablets in the foil packets
as the tablets stored in bottles can absorb =

water from the air and go inoperative.

Thirdly, just in case you misread Jason's
comments and think this is a substitute
for a hydrometer for OG's (i.e at the beginning
of the fermentation) it isn't quite.

This test is the classic
Fehling's Solution test and it only works
on reducible sugars.  Sucrose (table sugar)
is not a reducible sugar, but all the other sugars
in which we are interested are.  So any sucrose
in a wort will not be detected.  In fact, this
makes a good way for you to see if those
malt extract manufacturers like John Bull
are adding sucrose.   =


After the fermentation when the yeast invertase
has converted the sucrose to reducible sugars =

and they have been fermented and are no problem
this test will be responsive to some dextrins
and non-fermentable sugars like lactose -
which is why you can get a response of =

about 1/4% in a beer that is completely =

fermented out.  This 1/4% BTW represents
about 0.32 ounces of sugar per gallon or =

much better than you can read with an
hydrometer. Especially one covered with
CO2 bubbles buoying it up!

Use the hydrometer before the fermentation
and the Clinitest afterwards, although I do
suggest you try Clinitest before =

to compare the tests with your various worts
just to get an estimate of the sucrose content
of the wort by comparison with your hydrometer.  =


Why use the Clinitest Kit at all? To avoid the
errors from CO2 bubbles in getting an FG.
So you will know whether or not you have =

a stuck fermentation and what the sugar content
is in the beer when you prime it for bottling.
- --------------------------------------------------------
Chris's FWH ( first wort hopping) comments
and question reminded me of a thought
I had some time ago, but didn't get a chance
 to explore it here.

I think that FWH works because the
boiling point of the concentrated wort is
higher than what the hops normally see
in a full wort boil and the resins are softer
at this temperature and come out of the
hops sooner in rolling boil. =


Counter argument is the efficiency of hop
extraction with extract at less than
full volume boil is lower.

However, what if you started with an extract =

at high concentration, added hops, =

boiled it for, say, 30 minutes and then
diluted with boiling water and boiled some more?

Any thoughts on that?
- ---------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:13:27 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Yeast,Grain Mill Motor

Brewsters:

Laura says:,

>According to what I learned at pointy-head
> school, yeast multiply better with
>a minimum of extra food. With extra food
> they go into ethanol/CO2 production.

Well, I always thought that an SG of 1.020
for a starter was to minimize the petite body
formation possibility.  Maybe it is both.
Any rationale/evidence for this, at least to me,
new information? I always thought that
CO2 /ethanol was *always* a by-product
with S. Cerevisiae which are anti-Pasteur =

in their behavior towards sugar content
down to very low sugar levels.
S. Cerevisiae is not your common =

garden yeast and what you learned at pointy-head
school about most yeasts may not always
apply here. OTOH, I do seem to recall that
in the growing of yeasts for bread making
(also a S.Cerevisiae) they do keep the =

Sg low and continuously oxygenate the slurry,
so I could be convinced..

> feeding them 1 pint per day
>until the day before brew day when they
> get 1 pint every 12 hours. (starter
>substrate: 1# DME per 2 gallons)

So an Sg of about 1.020 in your feeder
solution and less than 1.010 in your starter
and it will get more and more dilute
as you go through the process. Seems
very low to me and not providing much =

sugar and nutrients to the yeast

> I hate dumping off the liquid before
> I pitch because there
>are so many yeast cells suspended in it.

If it is an Ale yeast and most lager yeasts,
just put the starter in the refrigerator overnight
and you can pour off most of the liquid =

before you pitch. Especially if your last sugar
addition is 24 hours before you pitch

> I think the lazy (or dead) ones are
>lying on the bottom.

Not true, especially for lager yeasts
and in your case of low Sg. Depending
on the yeast strain they begin to flocculate
as the Sg goes down. Thus, for example,
some Scottish Ale yeasts need constant
rousing to finish because they flocculate
at an abnormally high Sg and the beer =

would finish sweet otherwise. Lager yeasts
are flocculated at nearly all SGs

>Using my previous method (dilute wort),
> I would get the starter volume
>to ~1 quart and then begin adding
> small amounts (1/4 pint) of higher gravity
>wort. (substrate: 1# DME per 1/2 gallon)
> I think my yeast food is too dilute.
>By changing the gravity of wort fed,
> water is the only thing eliminated,
>resulting in the same amount of =

>substrate (at the same rate) to the yeast
>cells.

I think this is a good idea.
Add increasing amounts of wort to keep
the Sg around 1.020.  So if you start off
with a feeder wort of Sg of 1.1 and assume
that the yeast can consume about an
amount of wort of Sg of 1.020 in 12 hours,
then bumping the SG to about 1.020
every 12 hours is a reasonable approach. =

Thus:

1 pint starter  at 1.020 plus activated
 Wyeast packet to start. After  each nth12 hours:

n       Total volume (pts). Vol added
1       1pt`            1/4 pint
2       1.25            1/3 pint
3       1.58            1/2 pint
4       2.0             1/2 pint
5       2.5             2/3 pint
6       3.0             3/4 pint
7       33/4    =


>A comment about my present method....
> I don't often see my starters evolve
>any CO2. The airlocks seldom bubble
> and there is no foam on the top, only
>small, floating clusters of bubbles.
> They are usually very cloudy with an
>obvious cake of yeast on the bottom.

This is understandable, perhaps, since
the yeast deplete the small amount of sugar
you have been adding in your present
procedure before the water gets saturated
with CO2 and it happens so quickly you
may not be around.

Does anyone have any thoughts about
adding nutrients?  If the beer above =

the yeast can be discarded before pitching
it seems to me this could be a good idea
to use nutrients.
- -------------------------------------------------
A reader asks:

> has anyone
>determined the torque requirements
> of a typical homebrew grain mill?

My Power Drill does an admirable job with
my two roll mill.  I use it as a direct drive, since
I built a key from a 3/8" bolt to fit the slot where
 the handle used to be.
This key goes into the chuck.
I also have a safety device.  If the drill hits
a piece of some non-malt substance =

( happened once in lots of batches) the
drill motor rolls over and pulls the plug.
When you hook up your motor do it through
some kind of shear pin or clutch device.
- -------------------------------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 97 08:53:43 -0800
From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
Subject: Re: Wort Chilling, End of Test

[snip]
>I experimented with
>two variations on my standard procedure which if they caused
>no problems, would greatly simplify my brewing process.
>
[snip]
>This season I started each
>batch with about a gallon of sludge saved from the previous
>batch.
>
>Change No.2 was eliminating the forced chilling of wort.  I
>simply put the lid on the kettle shortly after end of boil
>and transfered to the fermenter in the morning.
>
>All my beers (including one made in March) received the usual
>rave reviews at our Third Annual Octoberfest/Star Party.
>Furthermore, at no time did I or my wife notice anything
>unusual about any of our beers over the summer.
>
>I guess the yeast business should come as no surprise but
>I think it is time to put wort chilling into proper
>prospective, i.e., just something else to stimulate
>endless discussions and entrepreneurial juices not to
>mention delighting the nice folks who sell advertising.
>
>js

The taste testing you mention is really not adequate.  You'd have to do
side by side tests, e.g. two identical batches of each beer, brewed
together, pitched in the same way, fermented in the same way etc., but
with the only difference between the two being the lack of a chiller.
In addition, you seem to draw strong conclusions about the use of a
chiller, but ignore the fact that you radically changed your method of
pitching in a way that is known to work very well, and may be helping to
confound your results.  My conclusion is that you may be right about the
chiller, but you may also be wrong, and that your so-called test
procedure above confounds the results dramatically enough that it is not
possible to draw anything conclusive.  Maybe you could design a batch of
beer that is on the light side, so you could taste something like DMS in
it, then brew two identical batches side by side and only change the
method of chilling?  Then do a taste test and send your brews in for DMS
testing?

Brian



 .......................................................................

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