---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  gnireenignE ("Steven W. Smith")
  SG:Volume relationship ("Jeffrey M. Kenton")
  Re: Wort chilling (Jacques Bourdouxhe)
  Artful Cooling (Paul Niebergall)
  Motorizing Valley Mill ("Dean Fikar")
  various questions ("Rob Miller")
  Brewing Flax? ("Steve McKeon")
  Gelatin Finings ("Michael E. Dingas")
  Starters and Lactic Acid (Joseph S. Kallo)
  Schofferhofer bottling strain or fermentaion strain (Jon Bovard)
  Freezer Temperature Controllers ("WILLITS MICHAEL EXC CP US")
  Bottling yeast and the like... (Some Guy)
  Resuscitating Ale,Mill Rolls,Slow Wort Chilling ("David R. Burley")
  Wyeast NW ESB Test Yeast? (Brian_Moore)
  re: pump summary ("Ted Hull")
  Kulmbach beerfest receipe request (David Oka)
  Jack's "experiment" (David C. Harsh)
  Yeast Starter ("C&S Peterson")
  Oxygenating wort (Alan Edwards)
  RE: Inside information (Todd McAllister)
  Schmidling & wort chilling (ensmingr)
  Re: Holiday beer with Maple? (Alan Edwards)
  Missing HBD from 1996 (Samuel Mize)
  Fehling's solution nit (AJ)
  Re: Oxygen Results (brian_dixon)
  Re: Inside Information (on Belgian bottle yeasts) (brian_dixon)
  Donations for the HBD Computer Gizmo (Mike Spinelli)
  Yeast Slant Prep ("Capt. Marc Battreall")
  When DOEs the lag time end anyway ?? (Mike Spinelli)
  he was probably brewing out-of-style (applmgr)
  re: Yeast Starter - refridgerate? (Charles Burns)
  Re: Oxygen Results ("Michael Gerholdt")
  Sweetening Brown Ale (atlantis)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:16:12 -0700 (MST)
From: "Steven W. Smith" <SYSSWS at gc.maricopa.edu>
Subject: gnireenignE

  "Reverse engineering", that is.  I'd like to do an after-the-fact 
calculation of what my beer's vital stats might be and am looking for a 
program or spreadsheet that would help.  The beer's been in the secondary for 
about a week.  I've got good records of everything about it with the exception 
of SG readings.  I'm mostly interested in calculating % ETOH and a ballpark 
estimate of bitterness.

  I've owned a hydrometer for at least 10 years, but for some reason I never 
get around to using it.  Likewise, I've read volumes of "fascinating" hop 
utilization/calculation data on the HBD, but it unerringly ricochets off of 
my long-term memory.  I plan to inflict this brew on friends and family 
during the holidays and I'd like to be more specific than my standard: 
"it's got plenty of alcohol".  A direct reply is probably in order.
TIA, Steve

Steven W. Smith, Systems Programmer. Glendale Community College. Glendale Az.
syssws at HoldTheSpam.gc.maricopa.edu  minus HoldTheSpam.
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." Jack Handy

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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:24:58 -0600
From: "Jeffrey M. Kenton" <jkenton at iastate.edu>
Subject: SG:Volume relationship

Hello, I am looking through some notes I have acquired regarding recipe
formulation.  I have one question:

Is there a straight line (1:1) correspondence between change in volume due
to boil and change in SG due to boiling?

For example,  a recipe began with 7 gallons of 1.041 wort, boiled down to
4.75 gallons (SG 1.055), then added 0.75 gallons make-up water to give 5.5
gallons with a final SG of 1.048. I will simplify the SG by using the
numbers to the right of the decimal point as integers, and abandon the
numerals to the left of the decimal point for the sake of discussion.

I can see that, in this case, the difference between 7 x 41 and 5.5 x 48 is
very close (-0.004 SG; 7 x 41 is 287; 287 / 5.5= 52.2 or 1.052 as opposed
to 1.048)

Is this a negligible difference? Does this relationship hold up across all
ranges of specific gravity?

I will summarize private emails and report back.

Jeff

Jeffrey M. Kenton                    "Don't be afraid to go out on a limb,
N013 Lagomarcino Hall                that's where the fruit is." - Anonymous
(515) 294-9997                       "Information comes, knowledge lingers"
jkenton at iastate.edu                                   - Alfred Lord Tennyson



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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:03:51 -0400
From: bourdouj at EOA.UMontreal.CA (Jacques Bourdouxhe)
Subject: Re: Wort chilling

Jack said
>From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
>Subject: Wort Chilling, End of Test
>Change No.2 was eliminating the forced chilling of wort.  I
>simply put the lid on the kettle shortly after end of boil
>and transfered to the fermenter in the morning.
>
>js

Jack, please be aware that I already trademarked the name Easynochiller.

Jacques in Montreal

*************************************************
* Oh beer! O Hodgson, Guinness, Allsop, Bass!   *
* Names that should be on every infant's tongue *
* ( Charles Stuart Calverley )                  *
*************************************************



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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:44:53 -0600
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  Artful Cooling

Jack Schmidling writes in HBD 2556:

>>Change No.2 was eliminating the forced chilling of wort.  I simply put
>>the lid on the kettle shortly after end of boil and transferred to the
>>fermenter in the morning.

>>All my beers (including one made in March) received the usual rave
>>reviews at our Third Annual Octoberfest/Star Party.  Furthermore, at
>>no time did I or my wife notice anything unusual about any of our
>>beers over the summer.

>>I guess the yeast business should come as no surprise but I think it is
>>time to put wort chilling into proper prospective, i.e., just something
>>else to stimulate endless discussions and entrepreneurial juices not to
>>mention delighting the nice folks who sell advertising.
- ------------------------------

Lemme guess how the overly anal brew nazis will respond to this one
(tongue firmly in cheek mode):

MY GOD!  What have you done?  Don?t you know that every beer
reference I have read says that not cooling you wort will absolutely
make rotten beer every single time. Don't you know what DMS is (insert
long dissertation on DMS formation theory)?   It has been scientifically
proven beyond a doubt in every study (all two of them - Uh, my
references are around here somewhere. Yeah, that?s it, I don?t have
them with me right now but I am an expert in scientific research - so take
my word for it).  You should pour it all down the drain, immediately.  As
for you and your wife not noticing anything unusual, well obviously you
don?t know how to taste beer correctly.  I have degrees in chemistry,
engineering, law, philosophy, and I am a grade school art teacher.  I have
been brewing  for x years, I have been a certified beer judge to x years, 
I have a trained palette, and I always brew the best beer possible.  This
makes me the only person qualified to judge your beer (even though I
have never tasted it) and I can tell you from 1000 miles away - your beer
stinks.  Quit dispensing bad information to people on the HBD.  For we
cannot think for ourselves and you may cause somebody to brew a beer
that isn?t up to my personal standards. 

Score one for artful cooling rates!  

Brew on,

Paul Niebergall
(I know, I know - please don't lecture me on why you should cool your
wort


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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:15:48 -0600
From: "Dean Fikar" <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: Motorizing Valley Mill

>From: "Raymond C. Steinhart" <rnr at popmail.mcs.net>
>Subject: Grain Mill Torque Requirements
>I have a valley mill and would like to motorize it.  I want to use a
>small gear reduction motor for power.  My question is, has anyone
>determined the torque requirements of a typical homebrew grain mill?
>Anyone can mount a 1/4hp motor and sheave it down, by I want to keep my
>system compact and have found some small but powerful motors in
>Grainger. Any help would be appreciated.

I  just motorized my Valley Mill last week.  I used  a 177 RPM GE gearmotor
ordered from the Surplus Center (800-488-3407) part # 5-1098 for about $26
+ shipping.  I believe it has 40 in.-lb. torque which is more than enough. 
I can mill 5 lbs. of grain in about 70 seconds and get a perfect crush. 
I'm thrilled!

Dean Fikar
- ----------------
dfikar at flash.net

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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:17:09 -0900
From: "Rob Miller" <robm at alaska.net>
Subject: various questions

I have a few questions for the collective...

1.  Bottlecaps.  I typically sanitize mine with a 10 minute boil.  I have
never had problems with the seals coming loose.  My question is, if I use
"oxycaps", will boiling denature the oxygen-absorbing capability of these
caps?  Also, since yeast is an oxygen scavanger, are these caps worth the
extra money?

2.  Will someone please explain to me how I can put several pounds of cane
sugar in a soda pop recipe, pitch chamgane yeast in it, and not have
automatic bottle-bombs?  My dad used to make "homebrew" back in the 60s
with cane sugar, blue-ribbon malt, and Fleischman's baking yeast.  The
yeast definitely munched the sugar, and in more than priming quantities. 
Why don't soda bottles blow?  I have made lots of batches of beer and never
blown a bottle (knock on wood), nor had flat beer so I have reasonable
control of the process.  But I have made 4 batches of pop for my kids, used
the same amount of yeast in each, and had flat, normally carbonated,
gushers, and even a couple of bombs.  I am at a loss as to how to control
the process.  I don't have kegging equipment at present, so that's not an
option right now.

3.  I have a batch of all-grain barleywine in the fermenter (OG = 1.104)
which I pitched with Wyeast 1028 (London Ale yeast) in about a 1 quart
starter.  I have heard that this yeast is up to the job, but I am concerned
that it might crap out short of carbonating my bottles.  I can see three
ways to go:

a)  bottle as usual and don't worry--hope it carbonates (hate leaving this
to chance, though....

b)  add more yeast starter (perhaps of a more tolerant yeast such as Wyeast
Scotch Ale yeast) at priming time and hope that it is merely more
alcohol-tolerant and not able to ferment stuff the 1028 can't,

c)  add champagne yeast late in the secondary fermentation, let it feast
for a while until it is nearly done, then prime and bottle.

The obvious risk of a) is flat beer.  b) seems safer, but perhaps would
yield more sediment in the bottles.  My concern with c) would be
potentially changing the flavor-profile of the beer.  I used 1028 because
that's the flavor profile I wanted.  Or perhaps do c), only with the Scotch
Ale yeast?  Comments and suggestions?

Thank you for your help.

Rob Miller
Nunatak Brewery
Juneau, AK

robm at alaska.net

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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:49:27 -0800
From: "Steve McKeon" <s_mckeon at email.msn.com>
Subject: Brewing Flax?

Recently, I have been thinking about brewing with flax.  For those of you
that don't know what flax is, it's a small, dark, shiny grain.  Kind-of
looks like a bug if you ask me.  I have acquired a spec sheet from a company
that sells it and it says that the seed contains 43% oils (dry basis), 40%
protein and about 11% moisture.  It doesn't tell me about the amount of
starch, does anyone know?  Is there anything to convert?  Has anyone tried
brewing with flax as an adjunct?  Does it contribute anything?  Would the
oils destroy my head retention?  I can't seem to find any article about it
and believe me I've looked.  Thanks in advance to anyone who can answer
these questions.

Steve





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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:52:57 -0500
From: "Michael E. Dingas" <dingasm at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Gelatin Finings

I'm getting ready to bottle this weekend and wanted to try adding =
gelatin finings in the priming bucket to clarify the beer. The Complete =
Handbook of Home Brewing says add 1/2 to 1 teaspoon for 5-gallons while =
The New Complete Joy of Home Brewing says add 1 tablespoon without =
mentioning volume. What is a reasonable amount for an American Pale Ale =
and is there such a thing as adding too much clarifier?

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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 97 21:59:32 -0600
From: jkallo at snaefell.tamu.edu (Joseph S. Kallo)
Subject: Starters and Lactic Acid

Hello all.

Just having one of the members of my *excellent* first batch--an IPA that
will never see the four weeks in the bottle that is supposed to perfect it.
I have an observation and a couple of questions.

Concerning the starter thread, I brewed my second batch this past weekend
and decided to attempt to shorten the 24hr. lag I had in my first batch. I
popped the wyeast irish ale yeast pack at ~1pm the day before brewing. By
around 10pm, the pack was as swollen as could be and I pitched it to 2cps
of 1.020 wort. The next morning I added another 2cps of wort of the same SG
and by 6pm that eve had one heck of an active starter. I pitched this to a
pretty heavy stout (1.070) and had steady bubbling in the airlock within
5hrs.

My questions:

What are the problems associated with over-pitching, and does this sound
like a case of such?

How would I go about adding sweetness to the stout at bottling time
(presumably with lactic acid)? I am looking for some suggestion as to how
much sweetener I should add to achieve my desired result (something like
Sheaf's ).

3/20%

JK

- --------------------------------------
Joseph S. Kallo
Department  of Philosophy
Texas A&M University
jkallo at snaefell.tamu.edu
- --------------------------------------



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Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1986 07:44:24 +1100
From: Jon Bovard <j.bovard at student.qut.edu.au>
Subject: Schofferhofer bottling strain or fermentaion strain

Greetings.

Just got me a bottle of Schofferhofer Hefeweisen and would like to reuse the
yeast in a similar wheat beer.
Anyone knwo if the strain is bottling or fermentation strain?
Cheers
JB
Brisbane AUS


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Date: 13 Nov 1997 08:55:37 -0500
From: "WILLITS MICHAEL EXC CP US" <michael.willits at usre.mhs.ciba.com>
Subject: Freezer Temperature Controllers

Hi,

 I'm trying to find information about temperature controllers for a chest 
freezer.  I'm looking for a controller that will control a cooling source and a 
heating source at the same time.  I have searched previous digests and it seems 
that the commercially available controllers will control either cooling or 
heating (or just cooling), but not both.  I have also found plans for building 
a suitable controller, but if there is a controller available pre-built, I 
would rather go that route.  Thanks in advance for any help.

Michael Willits
Raleigh, North Carolina
michael.willits at cp.novartis.com  


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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:10:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Bottling yeast and the like...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

With all the questions related to bottling strains lately, I'd kindly like
to direct the web-equipped braumeisters of the HBD to cast their
cyber-eyes upon:

http://www.nada.kth.se/~alun/Beer/Bottle-Yeasts/

This site, "Yeasts From Bottle Conditioned Beers", created by Anders 
Lundquist is a veritable cornucopia of such information....

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan                pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor                  janitor@hbd.org
Harvest THESE: rhundt at fcc.gov jQuello at fcc.gov sness at fcc.gov rchong at fcc.gov



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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:16:13 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Resuscitating Ale,Mill Rolls,Slow Wort Chilling

Brewsters:

John Watts writes about a Lemon Wheat Ale
which is undercarbonated. Well you could
move to Denver or make up a Starter with
1 tlb of malt extract and yeast allow it to
reach kraeusen in 12 hours.  Add more
priming sugar as syrup
( I'd guess half the normal amount??)
to your beer still in the bottle, then a little
of the active starter and seal it back up.
Store it at 70F off the floor for a week or so
and it should be OK.
- ----------------------------------------
Ralph Link asks about building a mill
as outlined in Brew Ware.  I once converted
a noodle maker to a grain mill unsatisfactorily.
The reason it didn't work well was that
the surface of the rollers was very smooth
( naturally) and it would not pick up the grain
and pull it through the nip without my pushing
it through. (a PITA to say the least)
Large rollers - say 10 -12 inch don't have
this problem because the nip angle is
much smaller and the grain is carried into
the nip slowly.  For the small rolls an inch
or two in diameter, like we might build, =

it is important to have *knurled* surfaces
on the rolls to grab the grain and pull it
into the nip to get an efficient milling.
I also suggest that any mill you buy or
build have an adjustable nip, so you can mill
different size grains and mill them twice
to get the best crush (equivalent to a
four roll mill) for a stick-free sparge.
There is a reason the big boys use a
six roll mill in preparing their grain.
- ----------------------------------------
Jack Schmidling takes the position that
rapid wort chilling is not necessary to =

produce good beer.  As long as you
don't pour wort through the air while it is hot
I'd have to say you may be able to make =

good beer this way. =


As I recall, You didn't describe clearly enough
to say how you handled the wort after boiling.
If you just put the lid on the kettle and =

allowed it to cool down overnight then
you clearly won't have as big of a problem =

as if you tried to strain off the hops while
the wort was hot.  The large shot of yeast
may also have helped since the wort was
likely fermenting in a few hours after you
pitched it onto the previous batch dregs.
In addition to HSA slow cooling of wort
provides a good temperature and time
for bacteria to operate at warm temperatures
in a nearly perfect medium.

I'd also have to say your comparison is
faulty and your results inconclusive,
since you didn't compare it directly to a wort
which had been cooled quickly. You were
also comparing last year's beer which had =

apparently been under-pitched to beer which
had been properly or, perhaps, over-pitched. =


Sorry, Jack, I can't agree with you based on
your poor experimental conditions and
lots of my batches made both ways. =


Cooling the wort quickly and pitching =

properly  high quantities of yeast =

is the secret to great beer.
I wouldn't encourage anyone to do otherwise.
- -------------------------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =



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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:28:39 -0600
From: Brian_Moore at gwsmtpscla01.mis.amat.com
Subject: Wyeast NW ESB Test Yeast?

Greetings all,

My local homebrew supply shop here in Austin was recently test marketing 2
new Wyeast strains.  One of these strains was labeled as "NW ESB".  The
name led me to beleive that maybe it was Redhook yeast or something
similar.  Anyway,  I put together a basic ESB recipe (10 gallons):

16# English Pale Malt
1# 80L Crystal Malt
1# Flaked Barley

Hops:

2 oz EKG  at  4.8% for 60 min
1 oz EKG  at  4.8% for 30 min
1 oz Fuggle  at  2.8% for 30 min
2 oz Fuggle  at  2.8% for 10 min.

The wort started at 1.048.  The primary fermentation took place at 64-68
degrees F for 12 days (ok I was a little lazy).  I transferred the beer to
the secondary last night.

Upon observation, it was fairly cloudy, probably due to yeast activity.
The gravity was down to 1.012.  The taste and aroma was very surprising.
Not at all like an ESB.  It was very spicey.  It has a definite belgian
sort of twang to it, almost like a strong wit beer.  Actually, this might
be the best wit beer I've ever made.  Does anyone else out there have any
experience with this yeast?  I don't really think I would call it an ESB
yeast, but I would definitely like to brew with it again.

Brian in Austin



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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 3:57:52 EST
From: "Ted Hull" <THull at brwncald.com>
Subject: re: pump summary

My $0.02 as a consulting engineer who deals with pumps:

It's better to put the pump between the boiler (or whatever 
source) and the chiller.  As the wort/water/whatever goes 
through the chiller it loses head to friction. Between that and 
any frictional losses due to valves, fittings, etc. you could 
run into problems.

Here's why:  Every pump has a characteristic operating curve of 
head (as in feet of water, which can be converted to psi) versus 
flow. There's also a curve for that pump of the Net Positive 
Suction Head (NPSH) that's required for the pump to operate at a 
given flow. Based on the height of liquid in the boiler in 
relation to the pump, the frictional losses between it and the 
pump from valves, etc., and other factors (vapor pressure, 
atmospheric pressure, etc.), the pump and piping setup has a 
certain amount of available NPSH.  If the available NPSH is less 
than the required NPSH for the pump (and we always use a safety 
factor of NPSHa has to be 2X NPSHr), the head/pressure on the 
upstream side of the pump impeller could be low enough to cause 
vaporization and cavitation of the pump. My offhand guess is 
that a high temperature liquid has a higher vapor pressure and 
would be more likely to do this (but that's part of the 
available NPSH calculation)

When a pump cavitates, microscopic vapor bubbles are formed on 
the low pressure side of the impeller and then rapidly collapse 
on themselves. The stress at the point is large and the impeller 
can actually erode (i.e. be eaten away).

So, to be safe it's a good idea to keep the intake side of your 
pump free of twists, curves, valves, and chillers. If you need 
to control flow, it's better to do it on the discharge side with 
a valve. Simply put, it's better to push something with a pump 
than to pull it.

Granted, it's much more important when your pump costs $50K than 
when it's only $100, but it's your money. Better safe than 
sorry, I say. Unless you'd like to do the calculations. It's 
hard to find NPSH curves for such small pumps and it's a pain to 
calculate the frictional losses through all of your intake 
piping for small diameter piping.

Good Luck!

Ted Hull
Atlanta, GA

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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:46:59 -0500
From: David Oka <oka at steptechinc.com>
Subject: Kulmbach beerfest receipe request

My brother in law is from Kulmbachh Germany (just north of Nurnberg) and =
has told me about the beer fest that they celebrate there in July.  I =
wanted to try to brew some beer for him for a Christmas present and am =
looking for a receipe approximating the beer that they serve there.  =
Since I've never been to Germany before and haven't ever heard of =
Kulmbach before I have no idea what their beer would taste like.  I've =
checked all the books on beer styles that I can get my hands on.  =
Michael Jackson mentions Kulmbach beer as a dark lager but doesn't =
provide any receipes.  Can anyone out there help me out?

David



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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:00:46 -0500
From: David.Harsh at UC.Edu (David C. Harsh)
Subject: Jack's "experiment"

Jack Schmidling writes:
>...I started each batch with about a gallon of sludge
>...eliminating the forced chilling of wort...

>...All my beers received the usual rave reviews...

What I believe this proves is that you can have a good party with 10
batches of homemade beer even if the beer has minor defects.  I recall an
IPA that I took to a departmental picnic; it too received rave reviews
despite significant fruitiness and easily perceived diacetyl.

I won't argue the effect of yeast pitching, especially since "pitch more
yeast" is almost always good advice.

However, if you really want to prove your point on chilling, make a 10
gallon batch of American Light Lager or Bohemian Pilsner (or any other very
light style), chill only half and then enter the resulting brews in several
(i.e., 10 or 20) large competitions.  If at that point, there is no
statistical difference in the scoring, then you'll have some good results
worthy of publication in places other than HBD.

Until good data arrives, I'll have to agree that there are a lot of
mommilies out there...

Dave

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
&                  Dave Harsh                    &
&   Bloatarian Brewing League; Cincinnati, OH    &
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
                     O-



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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 16:09:15 UT
From: "C&S Peterson" <CNS_PETERSON at classic.msn.com>
Subject: Yeast Starter

HBDers -

I have read with great interest some of the discussions regarding yeast 
starters.  The discussions seem to indicate that using 1.020 started  is 
acceptable.  I always thought that you should try to make the starter the same 
temperature and composition as the wort it was to be pitched in.  Is this 
true?  Or maybe its only true for the last step of the yeast growth cycle?  
[Eg, start with a 1.020 starter, and then pitch that slurry into a starter 
similar to the beer it is to be used with say 1.050.]

In this vain, I am planning to start my lager smack-pacs of Wyeast in the 
frige, even if it initially takes a week or more to swell.  Does anyone out 
there have experience with this?  How long (generally) will it take a smack 
pack of Bavarian/Bohemian lager yeast to swell in a 45 deg F environment?

In the past I have resorted to using warm starters and warm initial ferments 
on my lagers to get the yeasties rolling.  This year I'm tring my best to be a 
*good boy* and treat my yeast with the respect it deserves......hell, I may 
even rack off the trub that gets carried over into the primary!

TIA,

Chas Peterson
Laytonsville, Md


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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:10:49 -0800
From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com>
Subject: Oxygenating wort

| In HBD# 2556 you wrote:
|  ....
| >Bottom line, my fermentation took 24 HOURS to get going! That's much
| >longer than using my old aquarium pump and stone (from Brewers
| >Resource).
|  ...
| 
| I don't think stirring has anything to do with it.  I think you added 
| more O2 than perhaps you should have.
| 
| >3. Okay, next time.. more O2, of course. No problem... well except
| >that these cylinders may last for only a few batches... which starts
| >me thinking:
| 
| Less O2. :)  One 30 second blast is probably quite sufficient.  In 
| Ray Daniels' book Designing Great Beers he points out that despite 
| yeasts known requirement for O2,
| many homebrews make fabulous beer with minimal aeration.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hmmm.  I have well over 20 datapoints for you:

I consistently get very short lag-times.
Guess what my overly-complicated method of aerations is?

I SHAKE MY CARBOY.  DUH!

You guys are making it too complicated, expensive, and time-consuming!
And what is your return?  Tell me.

I get very short lag-times because I use an 800ml starter culture.
It's very easy, and inexpensive.  And I make great beer.

Yeast, not oxygen!

Ray Estrella writes:
> ******** Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew. ********
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
'cause your gonna NEED it, buddy!

OK, here's mine:
"Relax whenever possible, worry ONLY when you have to, and STILL have
a better homebrew!"

 -Alan (a recovering anal-retentive)

Alan Edwards (ale at cisco.com)    H3CO.____       O            CH3
Systems Administration Manager,     /    \      ||           |
Chile-Head, Homebrewer          HO-<      >-C-N-C-(CH2)4-C=C-C-CH3
Cisco Systems Inc  408-526-5283     \____/ H2 H          H H H     Capsaicin

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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:44:53 -0700
From: Todd McAllister <toddmc at burgoyne.com>
Subject: RE: Inside information

>Mark D Weaver writes:

>>Well, I have a rather high placed informant in Belgium (he's Belgian
>Royalty) >>and he informed me that the yeast on the bottom of all those
>bottles is not the >>yeast used to brew the beer with, but another
yeast >they add in.

Then Bill Coleman, The MaltyDog replies:

>Well, then, let's go to Arkansas, find ourselves a cousin of Bill
Clinton, and ask >him what yeast Anchor Steam uses! He ought to know!

Good hell, do you actually think Bill Clinton's cousin in Arkansas could
tell use what yeast strain Anchor Steam uses?  That's ridiculous!

Now, of course, if we want to know the chemical make up of Coor's rocky
mountain spring water, he may be able to help us out.  ;-)

Come to think of it, maybe my cousin in San Fransisco could tell us what
yeast Anchor Steam uses.

 -Todd-- Who's been chewing on his tounge from keeping it in his cheek
for so long,

"Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and
oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital
ingredient in beer."
       --Dave Barry


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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:00:29 -0500
From: ensmingr at npac.syr.edu
Subject: Schmidling & wort chilling

To Jack Schmidling and HBDers,

Regarding Jack's recent post on wort chillers in home brewing ...

I agree that it is unnecessary for a home brewer who makes 5 gal batches
to make or buy a fancy wort chiller.  However, I use a procedure to
chill my 5-6 gal of wort that is faster and not much more work than his
"no chill" method. 

I boil my wort (initial volume 6-7 gal) on an electric stove in a 5 gal
pot and a 4 gal pot.  I cover and cool the 4 gal pot (which has 2-3 gal
of wort) by immersing it in my kitchen sink which I filled with cold
water; I treat the 5 gal pot the same way, using my basement sink.
(When I lived solo in an apartment, I used my bathtub for cooling.)  My
method isn't much more work than letting the brew kettle sit on the
stove top overnight, but it chills the wort to about 70 deg in about an
hour.  This is faster than brewpubs or microbreweries and is much faster
than megabreweries.

I have seen theoretical ('hand waving') arguments as to why a home
brewer's 5 gal of wort must be chilled in 15-20 minutes with some sort
of snazzy counter-flow wort chiller, but I have not seen blind taste
tests nor chemical tests which support this claim.  Has anyone?

Peter A. Ensminger
ensmingr at npac.syr.edu

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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:39:03 -0800
From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Holiday beer with Maple?

In HBD #2556, Dave Carter (dcarter at me2.splp.com) writes:
| I've been thinking of making a Christmas/Holiday Ale and I've noticed   
| alot of the recipes use honey or brown sugar/molasses. I happen to have a   
| pint of pure Maple syrup. ...

If you want the maple flavor to come through, you will need to add more
than 1 pint, especially if the flavor must contend with spices for
attention.

I just brewed a 6.7 gallon batch of Maple Ale (total SG: 1.058) with
1.5 quarts of maple syrup ("pasteurized" at 150 degrees for 10 minutes
and added to the already fermenting wort).  Nothing else was special
about it except that I tried to keep the total IBUs lower than usual
and didn't add any late-boil hops that would contend with the maple
flavor and aroma.  (If you are interested: 9# 2-row and 2# crystal.)

The maple flavor turned out pretty subtle.  If you tasted it, I'd bet you
wouldn't be able to tell what the "guest" flavor was, until I told you.


If I were brewing a 5 gallon batch of spiced ale and wanted maple flavor,
I'd probably consider adding 2-3 quarts.  The problem is that you are adding
a significant amount of fermentables (sucrose), and must lessen the malt
to arrive at a target SG--or just go for the big beer and wing it ;-).
(I calculated the gravity of the maple syrup that I bought to be 1.347.)

 -Alan

Alan Edwards (ale at cisco.com)    H3CO.____       O            CH3
Systems Administration Manager,     /    \      ||           |
Chile-Head, Homebrewer          HO-<      >-C-N-C-(CH2)4-C=C-C-CH3
Cisco Systems Inc  408-526-5283     \____/ H2 H          H H H     Capsaicin

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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:39:18 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Missing HBD from 1996

Greetings,

The HBD archives are missing HBD #2290 -- "v2 #10" in the revisionist
numbering (hack, ptooey).

If anyone has a copy laying around, I'd appreciate getting it.

Thanks,
Sam Mize
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada


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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:55:29 -0400
From: ajdel at mindspring.com (AJ)
Subject: Fehling's solution nit

It is the cupric ion in Fehling's (or Benedict's) reagent which is reduced.
An aldehyde (or keto) group in the sugar is oxidized thus it is the
reducing agent. Thus sugars with available aldehyde (or keto) groups are
referred to as "reducing sugars". Sucrose is one of very few (and I can't
come up with another) disaccharide in which the anomeric (keto or aldo)
carbon takes part in the glycoside bond and is thus not available to reduce
copper. If a monosaccharide is represented E-A with E representing an
enantiomeric carbon and A the anomeric carbon, a typical dissachcaride
(such as maltose or lactose) would be represented as E-AgE-A with "g"
representing the glycoside (1-4 in this case) bond  between the anomeric
carbon (1) on one monosachharide molecule and a enantiomeric (4) carbon on
the other. The anomeric carbon is, in this case, still avalilable to reduce
cupric ion and thus react with Fehling's (or Benedict's) reagent. In
sucrose the arrangement is E-AgA-E (1-2) bond i.e. the anomeric carbons are
tied up in linking the fructose and glucose molecules and are thus not
available to reduce Fehling's reagent and sucrose is not a reducing sugar.
Glucose and fructose individuall have the E-A structure

Unfermentable sugars have the structure E-AgE-AgE-Ag...E-AgE-A i.e. they
have an available anomeric carbon which can reduce Fehling's reagent and
will be detected. The end of the chain with this carbon is often called the
"reducing end" of the chain. Thus dextrinous beers will give indications
that reducing sugars are present even though fermentation is complete and
brewers using Fehlings or Benedicts solution to detect the end of
fermentation need to be aware of this fact. Just as one detects the end of
fermentation with a hydrometer by noting that the readings have stopped
decreasing so one should see that reducing sugar readings stop decreasing
(Noonan says they should be at less than 2% - 2% of what I don't know) when
fermentation is complete.

Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.



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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 10:10:27 -0800
From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
Subject: Re: Oxygen Results

>>Bottom line, my fermentation took 24 HOURS to get going! That's much
>>longer than using my old aquarium pump and stone (from Brewers
>>Resource).
>
>In a recent BT article on aeration from various sources, the author 
>made the point that worts with higher dissolved oxygen levels actually 
>have longer lag times.  This is because the yeast respire longer.

This is true, and indicates that a little knowledge combined with the
lag time should help you decide what the problem is.  Also of concern is
the 'healthiness' of the yeast's growth environment, e.g. the wort.  If
it's an all-grain or partial mash brew and your pH's were correct, then
you're fine.  If it's extract, then it's probably ok unless the extract
is older than 4 to 6 months (from manufacturing date).  Other than that,
considering the health of the starter and the aeration/oxygenation and
the respiration issue should answer the question about how long a
particular lag time turned out to be.  (Longer not necessarily being
worse as you mention).

>>2. After aerating my wort, I poured in my 1.5 quarts of starter. But 
>>I did NOT STIR the mixture. Could that be the cause of my long lag 
>>time? I have never stirred in the past, but my old aquarium pump 
[snip]
>
>I don't think stirring has anything to do with it.  I think you added 
>more O2 than perhaps you should have.

"More O2 than perhaps you should have" is not an issue IF you give the
wort 5 to 7 minutes to "rest", e.g. reach equilibrium, after
oxygenating.  In the BT article that you mention above, I believe they
point out that it is possible to put too much oxygen in the wort, but
that it comes back out of solution within 5 to 7 minutes.  The
recommendation was to use two 20-30 second blasts, assuming a
Oxygenator/Liquid Bread type system, separated by a few minutes, and
then waiting a couple of minutes before pitching.

>>3. Okay, next time.. more O2, of course. No problem... well except
>>that these cylinders may last for only a few batches... which starts
>>me thinking:
>
>Less O2. :)  One 30 second blast is probably quite sufficient.  In 
>Ray Daniels' book Designing Great Beers he points out that despite 
>yeasts known requirement for O2, many homebrews make fabulous beer 
>with minimal aeration....Based on my own experience it is possible to 
>over oxygenate the wort, perhaps not technically, but from a 
>practical point of view.  If your lag time is 24 hours and your yeast 
>were in good shape, cut back on the O2 until you get what you 
>consider to be acceptable lag times.

This would be an interesting experiment for a homebrewer to do (or a
club).  You may want to make it a 2-variable experiment and correlate
oxygenation with the amount of yeast pitched, because the yeast count
will make a difference, e.g. the size of the starter or amount of
slurry.

Brian


 .......................................................................

Item Subject: WINMAIL.DAT
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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 10:13:06 -0800
From: brian_dixon at om.cv.hp.com
Subject: Re: Inside Information (on Belgian bottle yeasts)

>>Well, I have a rather high placed informant in Belgium (he's Belgian
>>Royalty) and he informed me that the yeast on the bottom of all those
>>bottles is not the yeast used to brew the beer with, but another yeast
>>they add in.
>
>Well, then, let's go to Arkansas, find ourselves a cousin of Bill
Clinton,
>and ask him what yeast Anchor Steam uses! He ought to know!

But in Arkansas, EVERYONE is Bill's cousin!  (And they all raise
chickens)

Brian

 .......................................................................

Item Subject: WINMAIL.DAT
Couldn't convert Microsoft Mail Message Data item to text at a gateway.

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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 14:08:26 est
From: paa3983 at dpsc.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli)
Subject: Donations for the HBD Computer Gizmo

HBDers,

I for one can't think of a more worthy cause than the perpetuation
of the HBD.   Having had the luxury of reading it almost daily for the 
last 3+ years  without having to pay a single cent, I think it's time 
to give back something..

I encourage all HBDers far and wide to contribute to this worthy
and noble cause.  If Webster's had a definition for "labor of love",
I'm sure it would be the HBD.

Mike Spinelli
Cherry Hill NJ
Mikey's Monster Brew


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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:10:00 -0500
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at reefnet.com>
Subject: Yeast Slant Prep

In HBD 2554 Mike Ownings wrote:

>A lot of people seem to have trouble with gelatin.  I suspect it is
>more of a problem in warmer climates.  You might just want to try
>agar.  Note that you CAN get agar in small quantities,  both from
>Brewer's Resource. Remember, a little goes a REAL long way.  Both of
>these sources will sell a couple of ounces,  which makes a LOT of
>slants and petri dishes and is pretty cheap.

I was wondering a few things. I just purchased some glass test tubes and
a two ounce package of agar from Brewtek. I want to start making my own
blank slants because the ones they sell are getting costly in the
quantity I need. 

Question #1 - Is the agar they sell properly prepared with nutrients and
do I need to do anything special besides prep it in a pressure cooker?

Question #2 - I only bought 2 oz. How many blank slants can I expect
based on an average.

I would appreciate any responses from anyone who can help.
Please post them to the HDB. Not that I don't want personal e-mail, I
just think that others can benefit too. 

Marc


- -- 
Capt. Marc D. Battreall
batman at reefnet.com
in The Fabulous Florida Keys
future site of "The BackCountry Brewhouse"


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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 15:50:18 est
From: paa3983 at dpsc.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli)
Subject: When DOEs the lag time end anyway ??

HBDers,
We all talk  about lag times with yeast and such, and I have
question for the collective:  When DOES the lag time end and ferment
begin?

Is it  when you start seeing positive presssure on the airlock or when
bubbles start blowin' thru the airlock?
Thanks

Mike Spinelli
Cherry Hill NJ
Mikey's Monster Brew  


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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 16:44 EST
From: applmgr at rpc1268.DaytonOH.NCR.COM
Subject: he was probably brewing out-of-style

True story off the AP Wire:
 11/14/1997 06:49 EST 
 Head of Siberian Brewing Co. Killed 

 MOSCOW (AP) -- A gunman killed the director of Siberia's 
 largest beer and soft drink company today in an apparent contract
 slaying, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported. 

 Ivan Bagnyuk, 46, head of the Rosar company in Omsk in 
 eastern Siberia, had just driven his car to the gates of 
 his factory when an attacker fired three shots through the 
 car's windshield, the news agency said. 

 The gunman shot Bagnyuk one more time in the head before 
 fleeing in a car, ITAR-Tass said. 

 Police declined to comment on possible motives. 

 Contract killings have become a common way of settling 
 disputes between Russian businessmen competing for control of
 companies. 

Hey Rob,
Aren't you glad you didn't work there? 
Insert smiley face

Kevin MacRae  
Kevin.MacRae at PeachtreeCityGA.NCR.COM
Peachtree City, GA
WUHAHBDW    "Wake up, Have a Homebrew, Don't Worry"


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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 08:07 PST
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: re: Yeast Starter - refridgerate?

Dave Burley writes in hbd 2557:

>If it is an Ale yeast and most lager yeasts,
>just put the starter in the refrigerator overnight
>and you can pour off most of the liquid...

I used to do this but after reading much about how rapid temperature changes 
can affect yeasts, I stopped doing it. I don't believe the problem is the 
rapid cooling, the yeast should just go dormant. Its the rapid increase in 
temperature later on (the next day?) when you pitch it. If you really want 
to do this, I suggest that early on brew day the first thing to do is to 
remove the starter from the fridge and let it warm up to room temp on its 
own, well in advance of pitching. What I've tried to do for the last few 
months is to have the yeast starter going well in advance of brew day such 
that I can decant the beer (most of it anyway) and then pitch, with the beer 
being pretty clear. But it does take some longer range planning to do this.

Charley in N.Cal


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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:11:41 -0500
From: "Michael Gerholdt" <gerholdt at ait.fredonia.edu>
Subject: Re: Oxygen Results

John Robinson wrote in HBD #2557:

>In Ray Daniels' book Designing Great Beers he points out that despite 
>yeasts known requirement for O2, many homebrews make fabulous beer 
>with minimal aeration...

"Requirement?" The fact is that respiring yeast do not require O2,
according to Tracy Aquilla.

I believe that the perceived need to oxygenate yeast among homebrewers is
largely associated with the fact that we tend to underpitch, and use O2 to
compensate.

When yeast is pitched in sufficient quantities, as I understand it, minimal
oxygenation is needed.

This point has been offered to the homebrew community many times over from
various sources, but has not achieved the popularity of relatively
indiscriminate oxygenating.

Personally, I have had excellent results with large starters and very
little aeration. Lag times haven't been a problem.

The desirability of oxygenating may also vary from one strain of yeast to
another. In some cases it may be not good practice to aerate at all.

It seems that we tend to take a "one size fits all" approach in general to
this issue. I'd like to learn more about it. Does anyone know a good
source?

Thanks,

Michael Gerholdt

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Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:23:10 -0500
From: atlantis at vgernet.net
Subject: Sweetening Brown Ale

I just made a delicious "Nut Brown Ale" from a partial mash,
pre-packaged kit that I changed the hopping schedule on and added some
dry LME to the wort.  The aroma of molasses was fantastic and it had a
really nice flavor.  I was hoping to duplicate a brown ale I had
previously had at a brew pub, and it was "just a touch - SWEETER"  I'm
not looking for candy, but I felt that was a perfect brown ale.

I'd like to add a touch of sweetness, but my question is, do I add a cup
of dark brown sugar, or some amount of dexetrin, because it's a
sweetener that doesn't ferment?

Any help would be appreciated, private email OK, too.

Henry Dondi
Dalton, Mass.
atlantis at vgernet.net

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---