---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  North Carolina Piedmont Homebrew (Mike York)
  Correction!!!--Wyeast Lager strains and higher fermentation temps ("Charles L. Ehlers")
  Replacement Parts for Fasch-Frich Tap ("LARSONC%DOM13.DOPO7")
  Re: more about yeast starters ("Arnold J. Neitzke")
  Re: Pump Placement (Bob.Sutton)
  Justifying Beer Making ("Lee, Ken")
  Belgian yeast (Kit Anderson)
  re:Barleywine conditioning (Charley Burns)
  joys of growing hops (kathy)
  Ferment question ("MICHAEL L. TEED")
  Microscopes (Dave Johnson)
  re: Yeast Slant Prep (Michael A. Owings)
  ferment question - oops ("MICHAEL L. TEED")
  Missing HBD / Oxygen / "Attitude" / Nazis (Samuel Mize)
  Great to be wrong - Homegrown hops (Don H Van Valkenburg)
  Yeast Slant Prep ("Capt. Marc Battreall")
  Greets ("Matthew Stierheim")
  Pectin/pectic enzyme (emccormick)
  Pizza stone on stovetop (Robert Parker)
  Preservatives in cider (neumbg73)
  Timmerman's yeast? ("Kensler, Paul")
  Bad Batches (Al Korzonas)
  RE:  Wyeast lager strains (fermentation at higher temps) ("Riedel, Dave")
  Re: Bugs! (Richard Stueven)
  magnification required ("Paul A. Baker")
  grain storage ("Andrew D. Kailhofer")
  Slow chilling (Al Korzonas)
  re:  simple sparging tip ("Kirk Harralson")
  Winterfest ("Kirk Harralson")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:53:51
From: Mike York <myork at asheboro.com>
Subject: North Carolina Piedmont Homebrew

Hi Everyone,

I have to agree with David C. Harsh.  A good homebrew can be made without
perfectly chilling the batch.

My favorite wort mixes include good North Carolina Piedmont well water (the
well dug down through 150 feet of granite), along with extra hops, crystal
malt, five cups of corn sugar, and a can of malt extract: John Bull is a
favorite.  The process goes something like this: The crystal malt is the
first ingredient; poured in one and one half gallons of water, brought to a
boil and sparged. A heated can of extract is then dumped in the goulash
along with one half ounce of hops; the other half ounce of hops is thrown
in at the end of the hour long wort boil to simmer for a couple of minutes.
 The wort is again sparged. 

My brew pot of hot steaming wort is then floated in a sink full of the cold
deep-well water. When the wort has cooled down some--about thirty minutes
after changing the water three times--the wort is poured in a five gallon
capacity carboy filled with three gallons of cold water. Then two packs of
yeast are dumped in the carboy and toped off with more cold water--leaving
about an inch of air space.  When I spatter the finishing cold water on top
of the yeast, plenty of bubbles develop--oxidation occurs.

Within 5 to 6 hours a tremendous fermentation develops.  A blow off tube is
inserted in the carboy the first day because the fermentation is so
vigorous--lose a little beer but don't have an explosion.  The second day a
three piece cylindrical air lock is placed on the carboy of fermenting
wort.  The wort bubbles vigorously for three days--then slacks off for
about a week.

After two weeks the ale is bottled.  The result is always the same--a
strong wonderful tasting brew.  The longer the ale is aged in the
refrigerator the better it gets.   

Mike 
William Mike York Jr.
"Shagging Forever"
129 Vaughn York Rd.
Staley, NC  27355
910 824-8937
myork at asheboro.com

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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:05:10 -0600
From: "Charles L. Ehlers" <clehlers at flinthills.com>
Subject: Correction!!!--Wyeast Lager strains and higher fermentation temps

Just re-read my post and realized I'd said part of it backwards.  What I
meant to say was,
  "Because I use a refrigerator w/ freezer, and still use the freezer, I
have to rely on the  refrigerator's thermostat to control the temp.  No
matter how HIGH (not low) I set the temp control for the freezer, the temp
doesn't GO ABOVE (not drop below) 45 degrees F.  It usually hangs around 42
degrees F."
  I'm forced to lager below the optimum temperatures, and can't follow the
schedule Noonan recommends, but the yeast still ferments well.


<<Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:19:15 -0600
From: "Charles L. Ehlers" <clehlers at flinthills.com>
Subject: Re: Wyeast Lager strains and higher fermentation temps
Dave,
  I use Wyeast for all lagering and some ales.  Because I use a refrigerator
w/ freezer, and still use the freezer, I have to rely on the  refrigerator's
thermostat to control the temp.  No matter how low I set the temp control
for the freezer, the temp doesn't drop below 45 degrees F.  It usually hangs
around 42 degrees F.
  I've always lagered very successfully, in spite of what Wyeast publishes
as the temp ranges (I use a calibrated refrigerator thermometer to track the
temp.)>>



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:25:44 -0500
From: "LARSONC%DOM13.DOPO7" <Erik.Larson at MS01.DO.treas.sprint.com>
Subject: Replacement Parts for Fasch-Frich Tap

Date:  11/17/1997  09:16 am  (Monday)  
From:  C. Erik LARSON
To:  EX.MAIL."homebrew at hbd.org"
Subject:  Replacement Parts for Fasch-Frich Tap

Greetings,

I have a Fasch Frich Party-Fasser 5L mini-keg tap (the approx $70
forged metal version) on which the plastic regulator arm has been
broken.  This is a small threaded piece which attaches to the plastic
regulator dial via a button type pinch fitting on one end, and which on the
other end  screws into the forged tap body to adjust CO2 release.  I am
missing the plastic button for the dial connection as well.

Do anyone know if a source for replacements parts?  I'd hate to have a
$70 tap rendered useless for lack of $1 in parts.

Private e-mail is fine to:

erik.larson at treas.sprint.com.

Thanks,
Erik Larson
Washington, DC and Ellicott City, MD
Taxman/Brewer

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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:37:28 -0500 (EST)
From: "Arnold J. Neitzke" <neitzkea at frc.com>
Subject: Re: more about yeast starters

On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 LBarrowman at aol.com wrote:

[SNIP]
> I have had great success (lag time ~3 or 4 hours) by pitching my starters
> into a gallon jug with 1/2 pint wort and then feeding them 1 pint per day
> until the day before brew day when they get 1 pint every 12 hours. (starter
> substrate: 1# DME per 2 gallons) I usually end up with ~3 quarts final
> starter volume. I hate dumping off the liquid before I pitch because there
> are so many yeast cells suspended in it. I think the lazy (or dead) ones are
> lying on the bottom.
> 
[SNIP]
> 
> Laura 
> Charlotte  NC
> 
> ------------------------------
> 

I'm a believer, 3 hours after pitching and ACTIVITY!

Here is what I did.

Saturday 6:00am removed yeast from the refrigerater, and placed on the 
counter to warm up.  7:30am made a wort with 1 cup of water and 2 1/2 
tablespoons of DME and added to the yeast (in a 2 liter pop bottle), did 
the same again at 7:30pm Saturday.

Sunday I brewed, at 4:00pm I pitched the yeast in some well areated wort 
and by 7:00pm there was activity.  By 5:00am Monday morning, it was at 
the top and headed to the blow off tube.

To areate this time, I let the wort fall about 2 feet to a wire strainer 
that was inside a funnel sitting on top of the carboy.

The yeast I got was from a AABG club member, it was about 35ml by volume 
and had a nice layer of yeast at the bottom which had been stored for 
about two weeks in the frig.

This is the first time I have had this short of a lag time in two years 
of brewing, what's worse is that it didn't take me all that much more 
time to treat the yeast right, to get it to perform this way.  This will 
now be my standard practice.

Thanks all for this discussion and information.

_________________________________________________________
Arnold J. Neitzke     Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com
Brighton, Mi          CEO of the NightSky brewing Company
- ---------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 8:40:00 -0500
From: Bob.Sutton at fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re: Pump Placement

  Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:17:13 -0500
  From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> 
  pondered:
  
  >>>Ted Hull gives an excellent dissertation on pump 
  cavitation and recommends placing the pump between the 
  boiler and the chiller to avoid cavitation caused by 
  frictional losses in the chiller.<<<
  
  >>>Doesn't the high temperature of the water on the 
  boiler side cause cavitation more so than the cooler 
  side due to the much higher vapor pressure of the hot 
  water?  Also wouldn't the materials of construction  
  of the pump be happier at the cooler temperatures?<<<
  
  
  Probably - it depends...
  
  If the change in vapor pressure going from hot to cold 
  exceeds the additional pressure losses imposed by the 
  cooler and the extra piping, the pump will be less 
  likely to cavitate, installed downstream from the 
  cooler. A simple illustration:
  
  Let's assume the cooler reduces the boil from 212F to 
  170F.
  
  The tendency of a pump to cavitate is referred to as 
  required net positive suction head (NPSH). NPSH is 
  calculated as the prevailing pressure at the pump 
  inlet, less the vapor pressure of the solution.
  
  Vapor pressure at 212F (water) is ~ 14.7 psi 
  Vapor pressure at 170F (water) is ~ 6 psi
  
  Hence, the available NPSH increases by 8.7 psi when 
  the solution is cooled from 212F to 170F - all else 
  equal. This means that as long as the additional 
  frictional resistance imposed by the cooler and its 
  piping is equal or less than 8.7 psi (in this 
  example), the pump's tendency to cavitate will not 
  increase when located downstream from the cooler.
  
  In addition to Dave's supposition regarding the 
  materials of construction, the pump seals/bearings 
  will be less likely to fail when operated at the lower 
  temperature.
  
  Bob
  Fruit Fly Brewhouse
  Yesterdays' Technology Today
  

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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:57:04 -0700
From: "Lee, Ken" <KLee at resdata.com>
Subject: Justifying Beer Making

I wanted to know how others that read this digest, can justify the
expense to their spouses?  I usually make a batch of beer once a month.
I use an infusion mash with all grain, and it typically takes most of
the day.  I started yesterday around 9:00 in the morning, and was ready
to pitch the yeast at 5:00.  I made a nut brown ale and it had to boil
2.5 hours...  The two biggest complaints I get are:  When is the expense
going to stop?  The other is the amount of time it takes to brew using
all-grain.  I seem to have made the mistake of telling my wife all the
money I would save by making my own been at home; especially when I brew
from all grain.  This sounded great at first, but when the expenses
started to add up...  A mash/lauter tun, a false bottom, etc.
Now I want to make 10 gallon batches so that I don't have to spend as
much time brewing (fix problem number 2), although that is something
that I really love to do.  When I explained that to brew bigger batches,
I needed a bigger brewpot (more $$$), this got back to problem number 1.
To try and save money, I have gone back to using dry yeast.  I was
suprised as to how well my beer has been turning out lately as well.  I
can create a five gallon batch for around 15 dollars.  I think that is a
pretty good deal.
Has anyone else had to deal with these _other_ types of problems when
brewing beer?

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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:56:22 -0800
From: Kit Anderson <kitridge at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Belgian yeast

Al K wrote;

> "Except for Orval (which is bottled with a blend of five yeasts), I don't
> know of any other Belgian brewers who use a *different* yeast for bottling
> than they did for fermentation."

Chimay uses a single strain bottling yeast that is different from the
fermentation yeast mix. That's why culturing from a bottle will give you
a totally different flavor than Chimay.
- -- 
Kit Anderson				ICQ# 2242257
Bath, Maine				<kitridge at bigfoot.com>
		
"I had the right rib, but it musta been the wrong sauce" - Dr. John


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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:28:01 -0800
From: Charley Burns <cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: re:Barleywine conditioning

Rob asks about carbonating a barleywine in hbd #2558.

I just had a similar issue to deal with (actually the exact issue).
After a 2 week primary and a 1 month secondary (dry hopped) I added some
priming sugar and bottled my barleywine (OG:1.119, FG:1.025). After 4
weeks it wasn't carbonated at all so I decided to repitch and rebottle.

I considered changing yeasts but I was afraid that the new yeast may eat
more than the priming sugar. At 1.025 there's still a lot of sugar in
the brew and changing the yeast might render more of that sugar
fermentable (different yeast strain). So i repitched the same (1056)
yeast. I took some previously harvested 1056 (about an ounce of slurry)
and dumped it into the bottling bucket with the barleywine after pouring
it all back into the sanitized bucket. Stirred it up with sanitized
spoon and rebottled.

I did this yesterday and will cross my fingers for the next couple of
weeks. Hoping to drink one for Thanksgiving. Actually I WILL drink one,
carbonated or not.

Charley

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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:25:17 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: joys of growing hops 

Kevin Scharmer writes about the joy of having homegrown hops.  My
neighbor has an elaborate garden often featured on garden tours. I have
my hops growning next to her vegetable and herb garden and when the
tours come through they quickly look to the novelty of my hops, what
they are and how they are used.  I set up a hop exhibit and give out
samples of homebrew.

The neighbor grouses about the tour distraction but likes a glass of
homebrew. 

Cheers.  jim booth, lansing, mi


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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:59:27 -0600
From: "MICHAEL L. TEED" <MS08653 at msbg.med.ge.com>
Subject: Ferment question

 .int homebrew at hbd.org

 Greetings all,
    After seeing a noticeable difference in my ferments since brewing in
 my new rims system I paid some attention to things (read: make measurements)
 and wondered why a few things I observed happened. Any comments on why
 would be appreciated. Brew was a Imperial stout, post boil 13 gallons of
 1.065 brew. I put the beer in 3 carboys, (2) 5 gal and (1) 6 gal, aerated
 with venturi tube style aerator with plain old air. Filled carboy 1 with
 4 gals, #2 with 4 gals, #3 with 5 gals ( 1 gal headspace in each ).
 Wort temp of fill #1 was 76 c, #2 was 72 c #3 was 68 c. Divided yeast
 from previous batch into 3 carboys evenly. Now heres where things get odd.
 Carboy 1 filled up to the neck in krausen, did not overflow. #2 took off
 just as fast as #1, but spewed into the airlock for 8 hours, #3 lagged 1&2
 by 8 hours, and spewed into the airlock for about 3 hours. SO the questions
 are: 1) Why such a difference between the 3 same beers with the same pitch
 amount of yeast, I can see why #3 might have lagged as it may have had less
 yeast than 1&2, also being cooler. Does the pitch temp make that large of
 a difference? 2) My ferments ( 2 of 2 ) have been more explosive using the
 rims vs my old plastic brewery system ( still all grain, but with the rims
 I went to a new mill, no more corona ), does a rims contribute to this?
 3) I have much higher and 'lacier' krausen compared to the old system, and
 less ' brown spooge ' on top of krausen than in the old system, any comments
 on why? Is this any indication of head retention in the finished beer?
 I tasted last weekends brew, a pale ale, upon racking and it tasted quite
 well considering I used old 6 row, but certainly the beer was not ready
 for any evaluation, but this gives me confidence that the beer is turning
 out well in the new system. Any comments would be appreciated.... Thanks.


 Mike Teed ms08653 at msbg.med.ge.com

 Sure is nice doing 15 gal batches!...


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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:03:23 -0500
From: Dave Johnson <djohnso at OPIE.BGSU.EDU>
Subject: Microscopes

Greetings Tom and fellow HBDers,

Welcome to the amazing world as measured in microns.
Most inexpensive microscope are quite capable of telling
us much about our beloved nectar.  A magnification of
400X is quite sufficient to distinguish yeast and bacteria,
which probably its most important use.  The 400X is typically
achieved by a 10X ocular lens and a 40X objective lens.

Now as to what you're actually looking at.  Yeast are spherical
and roughly 10-20 microns in diameter.  When dividing they
will have a small "yeastlette" cell budding off.  Bacteria, OTOH,
come in 3 shapes, spherical, rod, and helical and are roughly
1/10th the size of yeast (I've only seen spherical in my beer).
They may or may not be colonial.  They divide in equal halves
when reproducing.

Determining yeast viability is another common use by the
homebrewer.  By adding a drop of methylene blue you can 
get an approximation of yeast viablility.  Non-viable yeast 
cells will absorb the stain.

Affordable microscopes can usually be obtained through the
surplus dept. of most any college or university.  I hope this
helps.  Don't neglect to look at good old pond scum.  Jurasic
Park will pale in comparison ;-).

Regards,
- -- 
Dave Johnson
djohnso at opie.bgsu.edu

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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:24:17 GMT
From: mikey at waste.com (Michael A. Owings)
Subject: re: Yeast Slant Prep

> Question #1 - Is the agar they sell properly prepared with nutrients and
> do I need to do anything special besides prep it in a pressure cooker?

You need to make up a wort of SG 1.020 to  1.040,  and add the agar to
that (yeast nutrients are optional,  but I use em).  When I make up
slants I generally add 2 tablespoons DME to 125 ml (about a half cup)
of hot water.  I bring this to a boil in the microwave.  Then I stir
about 2 grams agar into the hot wort,  along with a little yeast
nutrient until the agar is completely dissolved.  I pour this into
slants -- small screw-cap test tubes,  in my case.  This makes maybe
20 slants?  I dunno -- I usually have a lot left over.  Then I
pressure cook at 15psi for 20 minutes or more.

> Question #2 - I only bought 2 oz. How many blank slants can I expect
> based on an average.

I you figure two grams per 20 slants,  a hell of a lot.  This figure
will of course depend on the size of your slant tubes.  Brewtek
recommends using 20 grams per LITER of wort! You can probably get away
with 15 grams per liter.  A liter of wort/agar solution will go a long
way.  If you use 15 ml test tubes for slants,  figure 5 ml/ per tube.
So you'd get maybe 200  slants from a liter?  and 2oz is enough for
maybe 3 liters of solution (I can't remember how many grams to the
ounce.  Is it 30 or so?).  The point here is that  2 oz of agar will
keep you busy for quite a while.

I'm still working on a 2 ounce jar after a couple of years.  Note that
I keep yeast under distilled water for long term storage,  and these
days just use plates and slants for initial revival of the yeast from
the distilled water.
***********************
Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
The courage to change the things I can. *** And the wisdom to 
hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they pissed 
me off ***

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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:31:16 -0600
From: "MICHAEL L. TEED" <MS08653 at msbg.med.ge.com>
Subject: ferment question - oops

 .int homebrew at hbd.org

 OOPS! Temperatures in my previous question are F, not C. Big difference.
 Sorry about that.. :{

 Mike Teed


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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:00:51 -0600 (CST)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at prime.imagin.net>
Subject: Missing HBD / Oxygen / "Attitude" / Nazis

Greetings to all,

OK, I have enough copies of HBD #2290 (v2 #10)!  Thanks!  Six copies,
and only one the wrong issue.  The real jolt was apparently getting
one from owner-homebrew-digest at dionysis.aob.org -- but it's just
because the email was forwarded, everybody else cut-n-pasted it
into a new message.  (Thanks for the shock, Denis!)

 - - - - - - - - - -

OXYGEN USAGE BY YEAST: Someone posted a quote about O2 increasing lag
time because it lengthens the "respiration" phase, other comments
followed.  I thought the HBD microbiologists has established these
points about S. Cervisiae (or however you spell the fancy name for
beer yeast):

 - Respiration refers to a specific metabolic process.

 - S.C. do NOT respire in the presence of fermentable sugars.  Instead,
  they ferment.

 - S.C. DO use oxygen at the start of the ferment, to build up cell
  membranes, which makes them healthier.

So oxygenation may have some effect on lag time -- possibly even
making it longer, as the article suggests -- but its main impact is
to strengthen the yeast and improve the quality of the fermentation.

Do I have it right, or have I missed some important discussions?

 - - - - - - - - - -

ATTITUDE: A lot of "attitude" has been showing up on HBD recently.

We all have different goals, which require different levels of
effort.  Nobody is stupid or foolish for taking more pains with their
beer than you do.

If you get result X without bothering about procedure Y, that's good
data to publish.  It's also fair to say that procedure Y is not
"necessary" or "important" if it makes only a subtle difference.

If you do this without name-calling, people may actually pay
attention to you and learn something.

If you are abusive, people will ignore your opinion.  If that's what
you want, just don't post it.

If you enjoy a fight, please post to alt.flame instead of HBD.

 - - - - - - - - - -
NAZIS: This is long, and I apologize, but I feel strongly about it.

I find it offensive to hear people called "Nazis," even "in jest,"
unless they are in fact totalitarian fascist murderers.  I'm not
talking about the insult, I'm talking about forgetting who these
monsters were, and who their intellectual heirs really ARE today.

The Nazis were not just "mean bad guys" or overly strict.  They
sought total control of all humans, and killed millions of "inferior"
Jews and slavic people.  My uncle died stopping them.

I detest calling people "Nazis" even if I hate and despise the
people.  The term certainly has no place in polite disagreement.

If you consider Nazism fit matter for jokes, if you feel I have "no
sense of humor," I won't even try to change your opinion.  Just bear
in mind that I and many others immediately and drastically lower
our opinions of people who abuse this word.

Email saying I take this too seriously will be considered an implicit
request for several copies of the entire HBD botulism thread. :-)

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net -- Team Ada

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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:58:33 -0800
From: steinfiller at juno.com (Don H Van Valkenburg)
Subject: Great to be wrong - Homegrown hops

kevinFschramer writes:

>I am now proudly serving up an IPA brewed exclusively
>with homegrown hops and IMHO it is delicious.  The ale features
>mainly chinook (my biggest crop) and some cascade...sure i don't
>know the exact ibu....sure it tastes a little different than
>commercially grown...

This is one time I am glad to be proven wrong.  

At the time of my post when I recommended against using homegrown hops my
only input about their use was negative including many posts I had read
on HBD about those with problems and not hearing the success stories. 
The most typical comments were of beer tasting like straw --hops were
probably over dried, left on the vine too long or both.   Or, beer
tasting like grass -- hops were not dried or aged at all.  Proper drying,
aging (oxidation) and storing is necessary.   I don't think you can just
pick them and throw in the kettle, as some say they did.  

 However since making that post I have heard from several who had
successfully used homegrown hops.  Along with these successes I would
like them to report on how they processed their hops.

Although I have not taken nor seen any survey on the subject, I am still
curious as to the number of successes vs. failures.   I suspect that
those successful, are so because they correctly processed and dried the
hops.  I also suspect that there are more failures than success stories
- -- just a guess.   Maybe we could  take a survey some day.....   I do
know that many are successfully using homegrown hops.  

 Sometimes there is value in making a fool out of oneself -- it can be a
learning experience

Don Van Valkenburg
steinfiller at juno.com

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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:19:53 -0500
From: "Capt. Marc Battreall" <batman at reefnet.com>
Subject: Yeast Slant Prep

Howdy Gang, got another yeast prep/storage question:

What about re-using the agar that is left over from a used plate/slant
afterwards? What I mean is, after you have plated out a strain and
either transferred it to a slant or starter, why not pressure cook that
agar/wort thats left in the plate?
I mean, won't it melt it and re-sterilize it making it useable in
another plate/slant? Any pro's or cons from the collective?
Let me know. Its not that I am cheap, but I have a few strains on plates
now that are ready to transfer to slants for storage and I don't have
any fresh agar in stock.

Thanks,
Marc
- -- 
Capt. Marc D. Battreall
batman at reefnet.com
in The Fabulous Florida Keys
future site of "The BackCountry Brewhouse"


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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:26:38 PST
From: "Matthew Stierheim" <vilt at hotmail.com>
Subject: Greets

Greetings fellow brewersters

I'm realy now to this brewing process and my question deals with my 
first ever batch. For this batch I used a Pale Ale extract kit. Please
not flames I will eventualy start doing this all grain this just 
seemed easer for my first batch.  Well to the point I followed all 
directions with the exception that i added a # of honey becouse I
like a light honey flavor in my beer.  My SG was 1.040 at time of
pitching.  What I want to know if how long should this take to 
ferment? I pitched 3 weeks ago and I'm still getting a few bubbles
a min activty in the air lock..  Is this normal? I'm I just worring
for no reasion?
TIA
Matt


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:32:39 -0500
From: emccormick <emccormick at usa.net>
Subject: Pectin/pectic enzyme

Pete and Chris Stelter asked about pectin enzyme...

    Its the same thing,  though generally referred to as
pectic enzyme. I really don't know
how much to really add. I think I used around a teaspoon
with the cider I did last year.
It came up absolutely crystal clear and a light straw color.
It did take months to do so, so
be patient with your cider.
    If I recall, I THINK I added around 5# table sugar to it
to up to alcohol level of the
batch. Using Red Start Pastuer Champagne yeast, it fermented
out bone dry. I added
8 oz lactose and should have added another packet of yeast
at bottleing as it did not
carbonate. Needless to say, I drank it anyway <G>.

- --
<Ed McCormick - e-mail: emccormick at usa.net>



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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:15:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Parker <parker at parker.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Pizza stone on stovetop

Someone suggested using a pizza stone under the brew kettle on an
*electric* stove to distribute the heat from the burners. Would this work
on a gas stove or would the flame damage the pizza stone? 

BTW, I use an 8 gallon canning pot sitting on two burners. 

Rob Parker
parker.242 at osu.edu


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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:12:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: neumbg73 at snyoneva.cc.oneonta.edu
Subject: Preservatives in cider

Hello.

 A friend of mine works at an orchard and they are dumping the "out of
dtate" cider they havn't sold. Instead of dumping it, my thoughtful 
friend gave me about 20 gallons worth. However, even though the jugs say
no preservatives added, my friend seems to think that some are added. I've
been trying to ferment 5 gallons of the stuff with a packet of EDME's for
about a week now. Not much activity is happening, so I pitched a packet of
champange yeast, 2 days ago. Still not much is going on. There is 'some'
airlock activity....about 1 bubble per minute...and fermentation temp is
at about 68 deg. I think the perservatives are inhibiting normal
fermentation. 

 Is there any hope to purge the effects of the preservatives or should I
just (*snif*), dump the stuff??

TIA...Private e-mail is fine

 -bernie neumbg73 at oneonta.edu
kb2ebe 


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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:48:46 -0700
From: "Kensler, Paul" <PKensler at itcmedia.com>
Subject: Timmerman's yeast?

Does anyone know whether or not the yeast on the bottom of Timmerman's
wit is viable and/or the original fermenting yeast?

The bottle label describes it as a lambic -- Is it a pure S. Cerevisiae
culture, or does it have some Pediococcus and Brettanomyces in it?

Any info on this beer or yeast would be appreciated (is there an
information source on Timmerman's on the web?).  If anyone is
interested, I plan on culturing this yeast to a small (1 gal.) test
batch soon.

I have already checked the extensive list of bottle-conditioned beers on
Anders Lundquist's web page, and Timmerman's was not listed
(http://www.nada.kth.se/~alun/Beer/Bottle-Yeasts/   for those of you
that missed it).

Thanks,
Paul Kensler


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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:09:11 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Bad Batches

Sorry about the old topic...

Dave writes:
>Rich Sonnischen has experienced 10 bad batches, off-flavors, etc. and gav=
>e
>some details of his brewing techniques. Rich, sounds like the Charlie P
>Overflow/carboy method of primary fermentation has another victim. Do you=
>r
>primary fermentation in a open container (like a 6 gallon plastic contain=
>er
>covered with a lid or plastic sheet) and get rid of that contaminated
>overflow hose which no one knows how to clean reliably. Also, I don't kno=
>w
>at what alcohol content a solution becomes a good disinfectant and not a
>food source for bacterial growth, but I would use more conventional thing=
>s
>like bleach and boiling water.

I'm sorry Dave, but I have to disagree with you most strongly.  I'm quite
certain that you have no scientific proof that a single batch was ruined
by the use of a blowoff tube.  I've brewed over 150 batches using a blowoff
tube and of the half dozen that had infections, all of them were traced
to problems *other* than the blowoff tube (most were due to aeration with
wild-yeast-infested room air).

About 50 or 60 batches ago, I switched to 6-gallon carboys for 5-gallon
batches... I still put a blowoff tube on there, but only two or three
have actually blown off.  Once my research (published in Brewing Techniques)
showed me there was no flavour benefit from the blowoff method, I modified
my system quite simply because I'd rather not lose those two or three 12-ounce
bottles of finished beer to blowoff.

I clean my blowoff hoses (1.25" OD, incidentally) by soaking them in bleach
solution.  They may be stained, but there is no crud to harbour any
microbiota.

By the way, how is an offending wild yeast cell or bacterium going to swim
(virtually all are non-motile) against the current of blowoff or is it
going to leap into your beer before the blowoff begins?

As for alcohol, 70% ETOH is better than 100% and therefore seems to be most
common.  The contact time for it is 15 minutes (as it is with bleach solution)
which is why (along with the fact that it flams [George Carlin], i.e. is
flammable) that I recommend it not be used as a spray sanitizer for parts
and surfaces.  See MB Raines' article in the second or third issue of
Brewing Techniques for more on alcohol and bleach sanitizing (alas, she did
not cover iodophor and percarbonate-based sanitizers -- and now we have
Oxine and StarSan!).

Bottom line: DON'T BLAME BLOWOFF HOSES FOR INFECTIONS!


Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:39:05 -0800
From: "Riedel, Dave" <RiedelD at dfo-mpo.gc.ca>
Subject: RE:  Wyeast lager strains (fermentation at higher temps)

Thanks to all who responded to my questions regarding Wyeast
lager strains and higher than optimum fermentation temps (special
thanks to Jeff Renner, Mark Lubben and Wyeast's Dave Logsdon. 

Jeff is currently fermenting a Classic American Pilsner at 56F- he'll
report
on the success of that batch (which tasted good going into the
secondary) in early December.  Jeff suggested 2206 (Bavarian) for my
Vienna, Dunkel and Maibock and 2124 (Bohemian) for my Czech Pils.

Mark pointed out that placing the carboy directly on the concrete floor
and up against the concrete walls in the corner of the basement should
help get things 5F or so cooler.

Dave, who had an info booth at the Canadian Beer Festival this past 
weekend, made a great and simple suggestion: cool the wort to 50F
before pitching.  This should help the beer ferment out at an average
temperature quite a bit less than my cellar temperature of 57-58F.

cheers, 
Dave Riedel, Victoria, BC, Canada


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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:40:26 -1000
From: Richard Stueven <gak at molokaibrewing.com>
Subject: Re: Bugs!

Aloha!

Thanks to all who responded - too many to even count! - to my
question about my grain's infestation.  They're flour beetles,
and there are a number of ways to get rid of them.  The most
effective solution seems be to set fire to my house and all of
the grain therein, thereby roasting the wee beasties.  I might
be able to get away with simply feeding the grain to our local
pig and fumigating the house, thereby poisoning the wee beasties,
but the first option sounds like more fun.

(Insert maniacal laughter here.)

have fun
gak
 
- -- 
Richard Stueven    gak at beerismylife.com    http://www.aloha.net/~gak
The Moloka`i Brewing Company               http://molokaibrewing.com
Beer Is My Life!                             http://beerismylife.com
Breweries On The Web      http://www.aloha.net/~gak/beer/brewwww.htm

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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:49:15 -0600
From: "Paul A. Baker" <pbaker at facstaff.wisc.edu>
Subject: magnification required

Tom Clark writes:
How much magnification does it require to look at yeast through a cheap 
microscope?  I happen to have an inexpensive microscope but don't know 
really what is required.  (I am pretty ignorant about biology but I 
still make some pretty good beer by following advice from guys like you.

Tom,
I have a cheapo microscope I picked up this summer at a flea market
for $12.  I can see yeast cells clearly at 150 x.

Paul Baker
pbaker at facstaff.wisc.edu       (608) 263-8814
Wisconsin Center for Education Research
http://www.wcer.wisc.edu


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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:58:14 -0600
From: "Andrew D. Kailhofer" <andy at aerie.bdy.wi.ameritech.com>
Subject: grain storage

"Raymond Estrella" writes:
: Janssen Skylard asks,
: >into one large ziploc kept at room temp. in the closet. Is there a better 
: >way to store them? How long will they safely keep before I have to trash 
: them?
: [...]
: or need. Grain that is kept dry should keep over a year, although I have no
: hard data on extract potential loss with aging.  Anybody?
: [...]

This last weekend I attended a workshop on Malt here here at the local
tech <http://www.milwaukee.tec.wi.us/> as part of the precursors for
what they hope will be a new brewery science program.  Even if it's
only 4-hour workshops right now, it's still pretty neat.

Anyway, I asked a question much like yours of one of the maltsters
from Briess Malting Company <http://www.briess.com/> (one of the nice
things about living in the state where most of the malt used in North
America is produced), and she said that they recommend that all of
their malt be used within three months (the "best if used before" sort
of recommendation).  Now, she's mostly used to people who get (at a
minimum) an entire palette (sp?  I mean a "skid") of grain, but she
seemed pretty grim about the prospect of using grain that we as much
as a year old.

The two issues before you are (a) quality
degradation from either oxidation, lipid polymerization (rancidity) or
very slow Maillard reactions, or (b) infestation.  If you could get
rid of any O2 (and keep it away, which is definitely harder) and keep
your malt dry (<5% H2O/weight) and cool (<70F [a total swag]) you
could probably avoid (a).  The (b) part is harder to stop.  As far as
I can see, you have three main types of possible infestation: fungal,
insect, and rodent.  You can probably know about the last one without
too much trouble---if there's no holes gnawed in your containers,
you're probably safe there.  The first and the second are harder to
know about.

Bottom line: You might loose enzymatic power, you might gain off
flavors.  Does the grain work?  Does it smell and taste good?  If you
can answer both of those questions with "Yes, well enough." you should
keep using the grain.

Of course, ideally we could make enough beer that we wouldn't have
silly problems like not using grain fast enough!

Andy

- --
  Andy Kailhofer                      Work: 414/678-7793  FAX: 414/678-6335
  740 N Broadway, Room 430,  Milwaukee, WI  53202-4303
  andy at aerie.bdy.wi.ameritech.com pXoXstmaster at ameritech.com (w/o the Xs)
  PGP pub key fingerprint: EC 61 41 4E A2 66 49 45  57 EA 1A 0C 59 81 8C AF 


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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:03:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Slow chilling

Sorry if this has been discussed, but I feel compelled to comment
anyway...

Jack writes that he found no difference in beer that he did not
force-chill with a chiller, but rather:

>I simply put the lid on the kettle shortly after end of boil
>and transfered to the fermenter in the morning.

The feasability of this procedure has to do with a lot of things.
First let me give the requisite scientific spiel...

Malts contain varying amounts of a chemical called s-methyl methionine
(SMM -- I hope I spelled it right).  Heat causes this chemical to
become dimethyl sulfide (DMS).  The rate of change is dependent on
the temperature.  Dr. Fix gives a formula for it in his Principles
of Brewing Science, but also says elsewhere in the book that it
is produced above 70C (actually, I read this as meaning that below 70C
the rate of production is pretty much inconsiquential).  DMS in
finished beer comes off as a cooked corn aroma.  People have varying
sensitivity to DMS (i.e. some can't smell a high level of it, others
notice it even in small amounts).  DMS evaporates in the steam of
the boil, but if you catch the steam and condense it back into the
wort, you will re-introduce the DMS.  A long, vigorous boil will boil
off more of the DMS than a short simmer.  The reason that slow cooling
of wort can be a problem with DMS is because once you turn off the heat,
the boiling-off of the DMS that was produced stops, but until the wort
drops below 70C there is considerable SMM conversion to DMS.  Finally,
some DMS is driven-off during fermentation... research has shown that
ale yeasts drive off more than lager yeasts [PoBS].

Now, on to the practical brewing stuff.
The reasons that Jack and his wife and the guests at the O'fest party
did not notice a difference between the force-chilled and slow-chilled
beers is some combination of:

1. the malt is low in SMM (higher kilned malts, such as Vienna and Munich
   are typically much lower in SMM than very pale malts like Pils),
2. all the people are relatively insensitive to DMS (unlikely),
3. the kettle lid was on during the boil for all batches and the
   DMS fell back into the wort making all high in DMS,
4. Jack used a long vigorous boil and most of the SMM was "used up"
   and most the DMS that was created from it was boiled off, or
5. the fermentation was such that it scrubbed-out enough DMS to make
   the difference un-noticeable.

Notice that I didn't even mention the issue of infections taking hold
during the cooling and spoiling the batch.  There is a class of 
microbiota called "wort-spoiling bacteria" which often give vegetable-like
off-aromas only to be killed by alcohol later when the yeast create it.
These usually don't cause the beer to become undrinkable, but rather
there is a slight "off" smell... often, as I said earlier, like carrots,
cooked cabbage, etc.  Several hours are often enough to give them time
to do their damage.

I once made a small batch of very high-DMS beer once when I allowed my
wort to cool slowly.  It was undrinkably high in DMS.  While I support
your right to brew the way you want to Jack, I don't think it's a good
idea to presume that you have considered every possible variable that
can cause problems and that everyone's beer will turn out acceptable like
yours did.  Therefore, I feel that you shouldn't make blanket statements
like "[wort chilling is] just something to stimulate endless discussions
and entrepreneurial juices..."  Next thing you know, Oliver Stone will
be making a movie about it.

Bottom line: Chill quickly.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 97 17:13:50 -0500
From: "Kirk Harralson"<kwh at smtpgwy.roadnet.ups.com>
Subject: re:  simple sparging tip


     Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com> writes about sparging:
     
     >Last time I brewed, an interested friend was helping out, and 
     >suggested just floating a tupperware lid on the grain!  I just poured 
     >the water onto the lid and it kept the grain from being disturbed.  
     >It worked like a champ, and freed up a hand!
     
     I have always gently poured sparge water onto a saucer resting on top 
     of the mash to minimize disturbing the grain bed.  This was not my 
     original idea, of course, I read it in some introductory brewing book. 
      Lately, I have been wondering if this is not a recipe for channeling. 
     It seems like the sparge water would run down the edges of the grain 
     bed, and not distribute evenly.  Comments?
     
     Kirk Harralson
     Bel Air, Maryland



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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 97 17:31:24 -0500
From: "Kirk Harralson"<kwh at smtpgwy.roadnet.ups.com>
Subject: Winterfest


     Well, I know I'll get blasted for this one, but I've got to ask 
     anyway.  I have never seen any information on what makes a 
     "Winterfest" beer, so I assume it is strictly for marketing, and not 
     really a beer style.  My problem is that I really love Coors 
     Winterfest.  I know, I know, everybody shuns the Budmilloors swill, 
     but this is different.  And I know, I'll get e-mails that say "if you 
     like Coors Winterfest, you've GOT to try this brand".  I've tried them 
     all, and I keep coming back to the Coors -- there is something very 
     unique about it.  I'm not a big fan of trying to clone commercial 
     beers; it's easier just to go buy them.  However, for the other nine 
     months of the year when this is not available, I would love to brew 
     something similar.  Would this be characterized as a simple Fest beer, 
     like a Vienna, or low-gravity Marzen?  If anyone could help me with 
     this, I would greatly appreciate it.
     
     Kirk Harralson
     Bel Air, Maryland



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---