---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Belgian Yeast (Al Korzonas)
  1998 Bay Area Brew Off Competition Announcement ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Freezer Temperature Controllers (John Wilkinson)
  CO2 (Tom Clark)
  Wyeast Question - Anyone to Answer?? (Fred and Sue Nolke)
  Brass Ball Valve Help (orion)
  Request for source of a very large number of Cornelius kegs (Mark Dodgson)
  RE.  Yeast Slant Prep (Clifton Moore)
  Cost Justification (Fred Kingston)
  Yeast Question: What am I observing ? (Rich Miani)
  RE: Wyeast lager strains (fermentation at higher temps) ("Arnold J. Neitzke")
  What price for happiness? ("Keith Royster")
  re:Justifying Beer Making (Denis Barsalo)
  re: Justifying Beer Making (MIS, SalemVA)"
  So when DOES lag time end?? (macher)
  Justifying Beer Making ("Paul A. Hausman")
  Re: Replacement parts for fasch-frich tap (Mark Warrington)
  New Glarus Spotted Cow Ale (Jeff Renner)
  re: boiled grains and corn sugar, no chilling required (Charley Burns)
  Yeasties: reusing the wee beasties ("James L. Spies")
  Re: simple sparging tip (Alan Edwards)
  Preserved Cider,Overflow infection ("David R. Burley")
  Parti-gyle (Loren Crow)
  Top Five Ways to Justify Home Brewing ("Rosenzweig,Steve")
  Re: Justifying Beer Making (Scott Kaczorowski)
  Brewing Expenses / Tupperware Channeling (KennyEddy)
  re:  simple sparging tip (Scott Kaczorowski)
  RE: Correction!!!--Wyeast Lager strains and higher fermentation t (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Homegrown hops (Edward J. Basgall)


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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:55:32 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Belgian Yeast

Mark writes:
>Well, I have a rather high placed informant in Belgium (he's Belgian
>Royalty) and he informed me that the yeast on the bottom of all those
>bottles is not the yeast used to brew the beer with, but another yeast
>they add in.

I'd trust brewers before I trusted royalty, but I happen to know for
a fact that Chimay, Westmalle, De Dolle Brouwers, DuPont, Achouffe,
are five examples (off the top of my head) of breweries in which the
yeast in the bottles is actually the fermentation yeast.  Cantillon's
lambics are not filtered nor are the Boon Marriage Parfait, Oud Beersel,
Drie Fonteinen or Giradin, which means that you can revive *some* of the
microbiota from the fermentations (many are killed by alcohol and pH).

> Sort of like the yeast on the bottom of New Belgium's
>Belgian style beers is actually Fat Tire yeast, not their Belgian
>strain....

Ahh, *now* it is, but pre-1994 (I believe) New Belgium's Trippel [sic]
and Abbey Ale *were* indeed bottled with the fermentation strain
(this is from the brewmaster's talk at the Denver AHA Conference)
and I happen to still have a bottle of Abbey Ale with the primary
fermentation yeast in the bottle.


Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:05:56 -0800
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: 1998 Bay Area Brew Off Competition Announcement

Announcing the 12th annual National Bay Area Brew Off.

Entries accepted Jan 10 to Jan 24.  
Judging Feb.7 in the HopYard in Pleasanton, CA.

$6 per entry.
We're awarding prizes in the following eight categories:

  American Pale Ales (Am. Pale Ale, Am. Amber Ale)
  English Pale Ales (Bitters, IPA)
  Dark Lagers (Fest/Marzen, Bock, Dunkel, Schwartz)
  Stout
  Porter 
  Holiday (fruit and spiced beers)
  Barleywine/WheatWine. 
  Mead 

With your entry, please specify which style (e.g. dry stout)
your beer is, what kind of mead you have, or what special
ingredients you've used.

One entry per category per brewer.
See the web page for complete details:
http://www.dnai.com/~thor/dboard/babo98.htm

or email me at gros at bigfoot.com.
Stewards and judges should also contact me.

  - Bryan Gros

Competition Organizer.
Visit the Draught Board Web Site:
http://www.dnai.com/~thor/dboard/


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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 97 18:38:12 CST
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Freezer Temperature Controllers

Michael Willits asked about temp controllers that could control heat as well
as refrigeration.

Brewer's Resource sells a temp controller that will switch either way for
US$109.90, according to their catalog.  Their number is(800) 827-3983.
I have no connection to them and in fact put together my own for about US$50.
I bought a SPST that switches on on rising temp and a SPDT that switches both
ways.  I run a hot lead to the SPDT common, a lead from the rising terminal
of the SPDT to the SPST and from the switched side of the SPST to the hot
lead of the refrigerator thermostat, which is turned to full cold.  The lead
from the falling terminal of the SPDT goes to a heat source.  The SPDT is
set to the lowest temperature I desire and the SPST is set to the highest.
I could have used just the SPDT with the rising side going to the thermostat
and the falling side going to the heat source but then the refrigerator would
have been either cooling or being heated.  In order to have a differential
between the two I used the two controllers.  I don't know if the Brewer's
Resource controller allows this or not.

For a heat source I use the light in the refrigerator.

In the case of a freezer or refrigerator that does not have an easily
accessible thermostat for interrupting the hot lead to, an extension cord
can be used with the refrigerator/freezer plugged into the switched female
end from the SPST and another female end added to the falling side of the SPDT.
Don't do this unless you are very comfortable with working with wiring.  I won't
go into how to do it because if it is not obvious you probably shouldn't try
it.  In fact, if you are uncomfortable with either method, don't do it.

I bought my controllers, Johnson Controls I think, from Grainger for about
US$25 apiece.  By the way SPDT is Single Pole Double Throw, meaning it will
switch a single current source to one of two terminals.  SPST is Single Pole
Single Throw, meaning it will switch a single current source on or off.

I can't be responsible for anyone who fries himself or others trying this.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkns at wss.dsccc.com

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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:48:33 -0500
From: Tom Clark <rtclark at eurekanet.com>
Subject: CO2

Has anybody tried this?

Connect a piece of tubing from the air lock on top of the primary 
fermenter and run it over into the empty carboy.

By the time primary fermentation is pretty much over and it is time to 
rack the brew to the carboy, the carboy should be full of CO2.
Right?

Are the risks of infection significant?

I have a section of surgical tubing available. Would it be appropriate?
Can surgical tubing be boiled to sanitize it?

Normally, I wait until just before I rack to sanitize the carboy.  This 
way the empty carboy would be relatively open for a day or two.  
However, we could rig an airlock of some sort that would allow CO2 in 
but limit any external air from getting in by keeping a slightly 
positive pressure in the carboy.

What is the thinking???

Thanks for sharing your experiences, even if they may have been a bit 
embarassing at the time.  We can all learn something from each other.

Tom


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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:25:18 -0900
From: Fred and Sue Nolke <fnolkepp at corecom.net>
Subject: Wyeast Question - Anyone to Answer??

Have a question about Wyeast 1338 being a very different yeast than it
was a few months ago.  Wyeast seems to have an unlisted phone number.
At 68F the new 1338 takes at least a week to primary, old one did it in
3 or 4 days.  Old one had famous "rocky" kreusen, new one is greasy and
never collapses.  Old one generated bullet proof beer stone on carboys,
new one disappeared during cold water prewash.  At 68F ambient old one
was exothermic to 73F, new couldn't get above 69F.  Is it some kind of
infection in the smack pack, a mislabeling, did they run out of the
original strain, purposely substitute?  Who knows?  But I do worry when
a major supplier goes to that length to avoid talking to their
customers.
Fred Nolke


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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:44:31 -0500
From: orion at mdc.net
Subject: Brass Ball Valve Help

On Sunday, November 16th, Richard Johnson asked about installing a brass
Ball Valve:

"I wish to install a brass ball valve in my brewpot.  I went to a plumbing
supply and the clerk told me the heat from my propane cooker would melt the
nylon fitting inside the valve. I know this can be done I've seen them.  I
need tips on how to do this.  Also do I weld it on or is there one I can
screw in with gaskets that can take the heat?"

My brewing buddy, Andy Q, converted a keg for us to brew in. The very first
batch convinced us that we needed an easier way to empty it. He installed a
brass ball valve thusly:
        He welded a 6 inch stainless steel nipple to the outside of the keg,
just above the floor of the keg (very little tipping is needed to completely
drain the keg.) Then, we screwed the ball valve to the nipple, and installed
a short nipple to that, so we could attach a drain hose. The burner stand
allows the keg to sit right on top, and that in conjunction with the ring
around the bottom of the keg, keeps all the real nasty heat on the bottom of
the keg. The ball valve sees only the heat of the wort (boiling
temperature). We have been using this for well over a year, and NO leaking
seems to be occuring. It is as tight as it was when new. 
Happy brewing!
            Orville Deutchman
              orion at mdc.net


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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:05:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Dodgson <mjdodgson at rocketmail.com>
Subject: Request for source of a very large number of Cornelius kegs

Hi

The following request is on behalf of John Preston, my local homebrew shop
owner in Melbourne, Australia:



- -----------------------------------
Dear Sir/Madam

We are a wholesale and retail home brewing supplier in Australia.  We are
interested in purchasing second hand stainless steel post mix kegs of
approximately 5 US gallons.  We would be interested in purchasing an 8' x 8' x
40' container load which we believe would hold about 1500 kegs.

If you have access to the above would you please advise firstly an approximate
unit cost per keg, and we can get into details of transport cost etc at a
later date.

I look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible.

Cheers

John Preston
- ---------------------------------



If you are able to help, please contact John through either of the following:

Email: shb at yarranet.net.au
Web: http://yarranet.net.au/shb/
Phone: +61 03 93173483



By the way, tomorrow's the second of my double brew days.  I'm going to brew 2
10 gallon all grain batches, one of wit beer, and the other of fruit ale.  12
hours is a damn long brew day though.

Bye

===
Mark Dodgson
email:mjdodgson at rocketmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2609







__________________________________________________________________
Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com


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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:06:43 -0800
From: Clifton Moore <cmoore at gi.alaska.edu>
Subject: RE.  Yeast Slant Prep

<fontfamily><param>Times</param><bigger><bigger><bigger>>What about
re-using the agar that is left over from a used plate/slant

>afterwards? What I mean is, after you have plated out a strain and

>either transferred it to a slant or starter, why not pressure cook
that

>agar/wort thats left in the plate?

 

I have done exactly as you describe with my yeast slants.

It just didn't seem to work out as well as I had hoped, and I found a
cheep source of agar at a local oriental grocery, so I quit doing it.


With fresh wort and agar I can accurately predict the moisture and
nutrient component in my slants.  Then there might have been some
by-products of yeast growth other than the nutrient rich yeast bodies
that have offered up their nutrients during pressure cooking.  


They just didn't work as well.


Clif 


</bigger></bigger></bigger></fontfamily>


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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 05:11:02 -0500
From: Fred Kingston <Fred at KingstonCo.com>
Subject: Cost Justification

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:57:04 -0700
From: "Lee, Ken" <KLee at resdata.com>
Subject: Justifying Beer Making

Ken Lee writes...

>>I wanted to know how others that read this digest, can justify the
>>expense to their spouses?

>>The two biggest complaints I get are:  When is the expense
>>going to stop?  The other is the amount of time it takes to brew using

>>all-grain.

You could tell your spouse that you've given great thought to changing
hobbys... however, you'd like her input first. (Women always like the
thoughtful, sensative approach)

Explain that you've given consideration to becoming a race car driver,
but you're torn between leaving her all alone all weekend and a
weekend's worth of fuel and tires is only $1000.00... or spending 5 or 6

hours every other weekend to brew a pot of beer for $20.00...

Tell her... which ever decision she makes... you're willing to live with

it... :)



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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 07:43:56 -0500
From: Rich Miani <miani at hudsontg.com>
Subject: Yeast Question: What am I observing ?

Hi folks,

I saw something interesting  when I looked at a yeast starter I had made
2 days ago.... I've never seen it before but that could be just a lack
of observation on my part... the layer on the bottom of the bottle was
"erupting" in slow motion like many small volcano's. Small plumes would
stretch out upwards then break off and rise to the top. What process was
I observing ? If it was fermentation, I've never seen it happen like
that in the carboy. Anyway, just curious.

Rich

p.s. it was Wyeast Ale #1968, and it was at room temperature.


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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 07:19:36 -0500 (EST)
From: "Arnold J. Neitzke" <neitzkea at frc.com>
Subject: RE: Wyeast lager strains (fermentation at higher temps)

On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Riedel, Dave wrote:

[SNIP]
> 
> Mark pointed out that placing the carboy directly on the concrete floor
> and up against the concrete walls in the corner of the basement should
> help get things 5F or so cooler.
[SNIP]

You may want to take this one step further, put the carboy on the floor
and against the basement wall and build a simple box around it to keep the
warmer "house" air away from the carboy.

> 
> cheers, 
> Dave Riedel, Victoria, BC, Canada
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 

_________________________________________________________________________
Arnold J. Neitzke                         Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com
Engineer, Application Product Development         Voice: (248)377-7128
FANUC Robotics North America, Inc.                  FAX: (248)377-7363
3900 W. Hamlin Road  Rochester Hills, MI 48309-3253


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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:00:04 +0500
From: "Keith Royster" <keith at ays.net>
Subject: What price for happiness?

Ken Lee <KLee at resdata.com> asks how he can justify the time and 
expense of homebrewing to his wife.

Ken, its a hobby, not a business (for most of us at least). The
justification, therefore, is simply that you enjoy it and it makes
you happy. It's relaxing, meditative, interesting, fun, educational, 
and provides a deep sense of satisfaction when your friends like your 
beer. If it makes you happy (and remains within your budget) then it 
should make your wife happy.

> I seem to have made the mistake of telling my wife all the money I
> would save by making my own been at home

This is a common mistake. Best advice here is to stop trying to 
hide behind the lie, admit you were wrong, and go back to the points 
made above.

Keith Royster - Mooresville/Charlotte, North Carolina

email: keith at ays.net
http://www.ays.net/brewmasters -Carolina BrewMasters club page 
http://www.ays.net/RIMS -My RIMS (rated COOL! by the Brewery)
http://www.ays.net/movingbrews -pumps and accessories for advanced homebrewers

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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:41:56 -0500
From: Denis Barsalo <denisb at CAM.ORG>
Subject: re:Justifying Beer Making

	In HBD #2560, Ken Lee is trying to find a way to "justify" his
all-grain set-up expenses to his significant other. I've had very similar
problems, and I'm also starting to upgrade ($$) my set-up to brew 10 gal
batches.
	My usual answer to anyone who second-guesses my brewing is: "It's
*my hobby*, and I enjoy doing this, regardless of the expense!! I don't
brew my own to save money, I brew my own because I enjoy the process, and I
enjoy the results." I'm always happiest on brew day, which often goes
something like yours. (9-5)
	BTW, a "recycled" stainless-steel keg is definitely the cheaper way
to go when your looking for a bigger brew pot! Actually, I'm in the process
of "acquiring" another two to use as a mash/lauter tun and HLT.

Denis



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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:47:55 -0500
From: "Moyer, Douglas E (MIS, SalemVA)"
Subject: re: Justifying Beer Making

Ken Lee asks:
"I wanted to know how others that read this digest, can justify the
expense to their spouses?"

My wife and I justify equipment costs as follows: the cost of the
ingredients vs. the cost of the micros that I would otherwise purchase
is the _savings_ in our "food" budget. The cost of the equipment and the
time I spend are part of my _hobby_. As has been discussed quite often
recently, this hobby allows all levels of participation. And, like any
hobby, all levels of financial investment. By breaking it down this way,
the discussion is separated into groceries and hobby. If I decide to
spend $12 on some exotic honey to add as an adjunct to my beer, my wife
can (perhaps reasonably) argue that the beer I make is too expensive. On
the other hand, she spent almost $200 on a three tap tower for my
birthday. If we tried to roll that (along with all the rest of my
kegging system) into the cost per beer, it would never get out of the
red. But we don't. This is my hobby, which is balanced against the costs
of her hobbies. I have a cheap ($400) mountain bike. It's a good thing
that I don't get into that hobby to the same extent as I do brewing--I
have friends spending thousands on their bikes!

Doug Moyer
Big Lick Brewing Collective
"Big Lick--it feels good going down!"
On tap: NOTHING!!! :-(

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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:18:06 -0500 (EST)
From: macher at telerama.com
Subject: So when DOES lag time end??


Hi All,

I am new to this hobby...only in it a year now...and after 30 batches or
so (including 6 in the pipeline now)...I have been eagerly awaiting an
answer to this question which was posted by someone (sorry, I forget who):

What significant event marks the end of "lag time" and the beginning of
"fermentation?"

I hope I did not somehow miss the answer to this question! I do carefully
read nearly every article in the HBD. I now want to buy a microscope and
some of the blue stuff...opps, back to the question...

As an example, I recently reused the yeast from the primary of a Wyeast
1028 IPA (first all-grain by the way) and after dropping the wort (cooled
to about 78F I think) onto the yeast cake I noticed several bubbles/min
coming out the 1" blowoff tube within about 2 hours. 

Was my lag time two hours? It may have been 6 or 8 hours(or more) before
some foam was moving up the tube and into the half gallon jug of water.

So, when does lag time end?

a) When the first co2 Bubbles out the blowoff tube/air lock?

or,

b) After the surface of the wort is covered with foam
   (can't spell the K word, and certainly cannot pronounce it :-))

or,

c) Some other time which is obvious to all except me?

If the answer has appeared, or appears before this does, sorry for the
bandwidth!

Bill "whose inquiring mind wants to know..."  

Bill Macher   macher at telerama.lm.com   Pittsburgh, Pa   USA




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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:03:43 -0500
From: "Paul A. Hausman" <paul at lion.com>
Subject: Justifying Beer Making


In HOMEBREW Digest #2560, "Lee, Ken" <KLee at resdata.com> wrote:

> I wanted to know how others that read this digest, can justify the
> expense to their spouses?  ...

Maybe I've been married a bit longer than you.  My spouse is not
a beer drinker (although I occasionally stumble on to a recipe 
that she likes and I do produce an annual batch of cider for her).
However, she supports my hobby with abandon. By what other hobby 
can she get me off her back for the better part of a Saturday for 
only about $25 US?  -- It's all in how you sell it.
- ----
Paul A. Hausman                <paul at lion.com>
Lion Technology Inc., Lafayette, NJ, 07848 USA

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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:52:13 -0500
From: Mark Warrington <warringt at esvax.email.dupont.com>
Subject: Re: Replacement parts for fasch-frich tap

I too have a broken part on a Fass-Frish (sic) mini-keg and need a
replacement. On mine the black plastic dip tube broke at the top where
it threads into the metal top piece with an o-ring. I too need a source.
				
										Mark

> 
> Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:25:44 -0500
> From: "LARSONC%DOM13.DOPO7" <Erik.Larson at MS01.DO.treas.sprint.com>
> Subject: Replacement Parts for Fasch-Frich Tap
> To:  EX.MAIL."homebrew at hbd.org"
> Subject:  Replacement Parts for Fasch-Frich Tap
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> I have a Fasch Frich Party-Fasser 5L mini-keg tap (the approx $70
> forged metal version) on which the plastic regulator arm has been
> broken.  This is a small threaded piece which attaches to the plastic
> regulator dial via a button type pinch fitting on one end, and which on the
> other end  screws into the forged tap body to adjust CO2 release.  I am
> missing the plastic button for the dial connection as well.
> 
> Do anyone know if a source for replacements parts?  I'd hate to have a
> $70 tap rendered useless for lack of $1 in parts.
> 
> Private e-mail is fine to:
> 
> erik.larson at treas.sprint.com.
> 
> Thanks,
> Erik Larson
> Washington, DC and Ellicott City, MD
> Taxman/Brewer

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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:57:11 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: New Glarus Spotted Cow Ale

A friend, knowing I am a beer nut, dropped off a bottle of this he had
picked up in Madison.  I was most impressed by this unassuming beer.  The
label describes it as a "Wisconsin farmhouse ale...with flaked barley...the
finest Wisconsin malts...a little hint of corn."  Even before I read the
label, I smelled it and thought, "Corn!"  (You all know I brew with the
stuff and like it).  It had a soft palate and was lightly hopped, maybe
upper teens at most.  I guess what I liked best was its easy drinkability
(at least for 3 oz., I had to split it four ways) and great balance of
components.  It was light but not wimpy or simple or bland.  As a matter of
fact, it held a fair amount of interest for me in spite of its low hopping
level and, I would guess, relatively ordinary gravity, but it was liked by
drinkers of ordinary domestic beers.

I think if I were to brew this based on the 3 oz. taste (unfortunately in a
social setting, not an analytical one), I'd go for an OG of 1.044, 2 row
domestic pale ale malt, 12% flaked barley, 8% flaked corn, and 5% domestic
40L crystal.  Hop to target of 18 IBU with domestic Fuggles and Fuggles and
Goldings for finishing.  Might even use a little Goldings for FWH.

So the question - Any of you Wisconsin brewers know the real inside skinny
on this beer?  Grain and hop bill, OG, etc?  New Glarus has attracted a lot
of attention for its cherry Belgian and its cyser, but I think this little
beer is a gem.  It shows you don't have to be bombastic to make a really
good beer.  Does the brewer (Daniel Carey) talk?

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 07:25:22 -0800
From: Charley Burns <cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: re: boiled grains and corn sugar, no chilling required

Mike York writes in hbd #2560 that he agrees that rapid chilling of wort
is not necessary to make great beer. Then he goes on to describe his
recipe for a great beer including:

"...boiled specialty grains and corn sugar...". 

Well, I agree with Mike, no amount of chilling will improve a beer with
this process and ingredients. Mike - try using DME instead of corn sugar
and try steeping the grains in 160-170F water in a grain bag instead of
boiling them. Then try some pure liquid yeast cultures if you're at all
interested in improving the beer you make.

My $.02 worth.

Charley in N. Cal.

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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:42:20 -0800
From: "James L. Spies" <spiesjl at mda.state.md.us>
Subject: Yeasties: reusing the wee beasties

To the esteemed collective:

I just brewed my 1st all grain batch, an I.P.A., and used Wyeast 1968
London ESB that was stepped up into about a 1/2 gallon starter (activity
within 5 hours).  Kraeusen foamed through the airlock like mad for about
2 days straight, and has since subsided to 1 bubble about every 9
seconds (it's now day 5).  Anyway, I have heard much on the HBD about
the tendency of 1968 to flocculate and possibly require re-agitiation to
keep going.  I have swirled the 6-gallon carboy about once daily to keep
the beasties in suspension (they are *flocculent* puppies) yet I still
have a 1/2 or so inch cake on the bottom of the fermenter.  I'm not
going to worry, but my question is this:  I would like to brew another
batch to immediately follow bottling this one.  Can I simply *dump* new
wort on top of the cream and green colored cake that's left in the
carboy and aerate like hell, or is this cake so compacted that they
won't wake up?  Any help would be appreciated, and asap because brew day
#2 approaches.  Responses may also be sent to   speevus at aol.com

Thanks,
Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery



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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:06:04 -0800
From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com>
Subject: Re: simple sparging tip

I wrote:
> Last time I brewed, an interested friend was helping out, and 
> suggested just floating a tupperware lid on the grain!  I just poured 
> the water onto the lid and it kept the grain from being disturbed.  
> It worked like a champ, and freed up a hand!
     
In HBD #2560, Kirk Harralson"<kwh at smtpgwy.roadnet.ups.com> wrote:
| I have always gently poured sparge water onto a saucer resting on top 
| of the mash to minimize disturbing the grain bed.  This was not my 
| original idea, of course, I read it in some introductory brewing book. 
| Lately, I have been wondering if this is not a recipe for channeling. 
| It seems like the sparge water would run down the edges of the grain 
| bed, and not distribute evenly.  Comments?

The idea that I didn't explain properly (sorry) is that, if you keep the
sparge water level above the level of the grain, that the plastic lid
will float on top of the layer of water, keeping you from disturbing the
grain.  This would not encourage channeling.

Cross section of later tun:

      ||                  ||
      ||    .________.    || <-- plastic lid floating on top
      ||~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|| <-- sparge water
      ||oooooooooooooooooo|| <-- top of grain
      ||oooooooooooooooooo||
      ||oooooooooooooooooo||

However, if you don't keep the water above the grain, then yes, the lid
idea has a chance of promoting channeling.

 -Alan

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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:17:10 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Preserved Cider,Overflow infection

Brewsters:

Bernie, KB2EBE, received 20 gallons of cider which refuses to ferment and=

he asks for a way to perhaps salvage 20 gallons for his hard cider
production.  The fact that the farmer has an "out of date" practice
suggests to me that he is using metabisulfite to stabilize the cider.  If=

so, it will be possible to sweep the sulfite out with CO2 from
fermentation.  Try to find out at what dilution you can get fermentation.=

Below about 100 ppm, yeast can ferment.

Try this experiment: Dilute cider to see if you can get fermentation,
making up four samples with no water added, 1/2 cup boiled water/1/2 cup
cider, 2/3 cup water/1/3 cup cider and 3/4 cup water /1/4 cup cider.  Pit=
ch
yeast into each of these and watch for activity.  If you get activity
you're in luck - maybe- After the sample has fermented for a day or so, a=
dd
an equal volume of the cider which was in the sample - no more water. =

Continue this each day so that you constantly increase the amount of cide=
r
added to the sample.

Thus if your 1/2/1/2 sample fermented:  Day two add 1/2 cup cider, allow =
to
ferment, day three the sample has a cumulative total of 1 cup of cider in=

it, so add a cup of cider to this sample, next day 2 cups and so on. =

Obviously you can start with a larger amount (say 2 pints of water and 2
pints of cider - or whatever) when you do this for real, depending on how=

much water you don't mind putting into the cider.

If you can't get any fermentation or adding additional amounts of cider
kills the fermentation permanently, you likely have a permanent agent whi=
ch
will not sweep out and the yeast cannot adjust to.

If not, make a nice hot, spicy apple punch for Thanksgiving with fruit,
spices and some vodka!
- ----------------------------------------------------------
AlK says for me not to blame overflow hoses for infections in beer and us=
es
his own case as the only reason not to do so.  I believe you Al, knowing
you soak your hoses in bleach solution for a long time ( months in some
cases)  and  that you may be scrupulously clean in your many years of
brewing good beer. Moving to the 6.5 gallon carboy probably avoids a lot =
of
potential for contamination, if the foam doesn't reach the top of the
carboy.

I point out this source of infection because others may not be so R/A and=

not recognize how that sewer pipe
 ( describing the function and intending all the emotional images this
conjures up) attached to the top of the carboy can be a serious infection=

point. It is very difficult to clean off all the oils and insoluble prote=
in
clinging inside there, even with soaking and no mechanical action.  As yo=
u
and I have both pointed out many times, one cannot disinfect a surface th=
at
is covered with organic material.  I know that in my open fermenter I sti=
ll
have to scrub the surface sometimes even when I soak in hot bleach soluti=
on
to remove the crud. Inside that tube, scrubbing is not possible..

As for how the pipe causes infection, I am sure I'm not the only person t=
o
notice that foam rises up, touches the pipe and then collapses back down
into the beer. It is not a one way street as you suggest. This looks to m=
e
like the perfect mechanism to transfer infection to the beer from inside =
an
overflow pipe.

Perhaps a discussion on how to perfectly clean those overflow tubes is in=

order.  How do other brewers using this method do it successfully?  How b=
ig
a carboy and the size of the tube also, please.
- -------------------------------------------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =






 =




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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:23:18 -0600
From: lorencrow at earthling.net (Loren Crow)
Subject: Parti-gyle

I didn't see any serious answers to the question of what a parti-gyle is,
so let me take a stab at it.

According to my _Encyclopedia of Beer_, which I picked up for a buck at a
Wal Mart book sale, the gyle is a portion of wort--about a quart--held out
from fermentation, preserved, and added at bottling (or kegging) for
conditioning the beer. The parti-gyle (which term is not listed there; it's
my interpretation of the French) would be approximately the same thing: a
bit of wort "parted" from the rest of the batch and saved for conditioning.

Hope this helps,
Loren Crow
lorencrow at earthling.net




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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:51:43 PST
From: "Rosenzweig,Steve" <Steve_Rosenzweig at wb.xerox.com>
Subject: Top Five Ways to Justify Home Brewing

Ken Lee, in HBD 2560, asks how others avoid the dreaded spousal 
 consternation at brewing and related expenses;
********************************************************
Top Five Ways to Justify Home Brewing:

#5)  Start spending more time in bars - blow $50 to $100 a night a few 
 times a week and see how much she likes your new "hobby"!

#4)  Prepare an economic treatise including ingredients, time, labor, 
 and equipment depreciation, proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that 
 brewing your own does indeed save at least $0.01 per bottle over 
 commercial swill, and hey - over a lifetime - that adds up!

#3)  Good training for a glorious career in professional brewing - fame 
 and fortune are just ripe for the picking, the sky is the limit!  - 
 just ask some of the esteemed HBD contributors!

#2)  The yeast need you - they worship you as a god - you feel morally 
 compelled to provide for them!

#1)  Keeps money from the pockets of the evil Busch/Miller/Coors empires!

********************************************************

Let's face it - if you _have_ to justify it, it's a good sign you never 
 will be able to - at least not your spouse.  You do it because its a 
 hobby and you enjoy the preparation, process, and results.  Anything 
 else is perfuming the pig.  

Respect and encourage her hobbies, spend quality time with her as well, 
 take care of all your other responsibilities prior to brew day and 
 overall, enjoy yourself while doing it - maybe it'll be contagious.

Forgot who's tag line it was, but it bears repeating:

If I'm not drinkin' it, I'm thinkin' it!

Stephen

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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:45:13 PST
From: Scott Kaczorowski <kacz at nfs.aisf.com>
Subject: Re: Justifying Beer Making


Ken Lee asked in HBD 2560:

> I wanted to know how others that read this digest, can justify the
> expense to their spouses?

Beer is one of my hobbies.  I'm fortunate in that The Big Marynski, while
not interested in actually brewing, likes beer as well.  In a lot of ways,
we share the hobby.  She's also a high school teacher and this generally
means that she's busy at least 2 weekend days a month.  Those Maryn-free
days are generally when I brew.

> I started yesterday around 9:00 in the morning, and was ready
> to pitch the yeast at 5:00.

Ikes!  8 hours?  How many rests did you do?  I did a brew on Sunday and did
3 rests and it took me 6 hours from clean driveway to clean driveway.  A
single infusion typically takes me about 5 hours clean to clean.  Describe
your procedure and maybe we can find some places to cut some time off.

A few places to save time:

   1) Never mash for more than 45 minutes.  It'll convert.  You'll be fine.
      I swear.  Your alpha amylase is almost completely denatured at the
      higher sacc rests (156-158) in about this time.  Anything longer is
      a complete waste of time 'cause the 'zymes are history or close to
      it.  (I'm sure, in fact I hope, someone will let me know if I'm wrong
      here, but I believe Fix, _PoBS_ will back me up.  I hope.)

   2) Eliminate mashout.  Might reduce your efficiency a little.  1 pound
      of extra grain == 20 minutes?  Other possibly beneficial things
      happen during mashout, but might be a good trade.

   3) Do a 20 minute sparge.  I run my system wide open during the sparge
      (3/8" hosebarb, so it's not Niagra) and *still* get 85% efficiency.
      I do mashout, though.  Again, a little extra grain might equal a
      little time saved might be worth it.

   4) Start heating the runoff in the kettle as soon as you've collected
      about a quart.

   5) Do as many things as possible in parallel.  Clean the mashtun while
      waiting for the boil.  Etc.  Duh.

> The two biggest complaints I get are:  When is the expense going to stop?

I justify it in a couple ways:

   1) Homebrew is much MUCH cheaper than commercial.  25 cents a bottle
      as opposed to $1.00-1.50 a bottle.  (Obviously, I'm not including
      time spent.)  I'll bet that if you did the math and compared the
      result to the price of Anchor Steam (ok, possibly contrived
      comparison), you'd be pleasantly surprised.  M/L tun and all.

   2) It's my dang hobby!  It's certainly less expensive than other hobbies
      I can think of.  Take collecting Porsches, for instance.  Sure, other
      hobbies are cheaper.  Watching TV leaps to mind.  Whee.

> The other is the amount of time it takes to brew using all-grain.

I've tried to get the neighbor into this hobby and have done some extract
batches lately.  The results are good, it's only about $10 more in
ingredients (still much cheaper than store bought) and total time is around
2 hours.

> Now I want to make 10 gallon batches so that I don't have to spend as
> much time brewing

Brewing double batches will increase your brew schedule by about an hour.
Sounds to me like it would be better to do two shorter batches.  That is,
an even longer brew day will be what gets noticed, not the fact that it
means you get to skip a brew.

What if you got up REALLY early on brew day?  Like 4:00am?  You'd be done
before lunch.  Hey, you love it, right?  Get outta bed.

> To try and save money, I have gone back to using dry yeast.

You'd be amazed at how cheap stuff is if you look.  I have five or six 7.5
gallon carboys for which I collectively paid nothing.  Find the right
scrapyard and Cornys are $5.  Buy your grain in bulk.  Your local brewpub
will sometimes oblige you and tack an extra sack or two on their next
order for their cost.  The local brewpub is also good for yeast.  Dry
yeast, hell.  Go get a PINT of yeast SOLIDS for free!  Grow your own hops.
By scrounging, calling around, borrowing tools, and doing much of the
work myself, I put together 1/2bbl converted kegs for less than $40 each
(no, really).  Etc.

Good luck!


Scott Kaczorowski
Long Beach, CA
kacz at nfs.aisf.com


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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:55:33 -0500 (EST)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Brewing Expenses / Tupperware Channeling

Ken Lee asks:

"I wanted to know how others that read this digest, can justify the expense
to their spouses?"

It's a hobby.  Hobbies cost money.  Period.

Some people like to sew.  You need a sewing machine for that.  Even a low-end
one is pushing $200.  You probably want to buy patterns at a few bucks a pop.
 Needles, thread.

How about woodworking?  Hundreds -- perhaps thousands -- for tools and
equipment.  Ever price cabinet-grade veneer plywood?  Exotic hardwood and
specialty hardware?

Ask the shade-tree mechanic how much money is wrapped up in automotive tools.
 Don't forget the $50 or more just for the shop manual for your particular
vehicle.

Don't even start with weekend musicians!  I spent a lot of money on a decent
guitar (or two), even though no one hears my stuff except for a few friends
and an occasional bar-full of drunks when I decide to play a few Willie
Nelson tunes with a friend for tips and fun.

Perhaps the "mistake" you made was trying to justify the hobby with "cheap
beer".  I'd wager that a majority of HBD'ers had this thought at least in
mind, if not foremost, when they started.  Sure, an all-grain batch using
malt paid for by the sack and yeast ranched into multiple copies can be
cheaper than buying swill, but that's not really the goal.  In fact -- and
I've also heard this point made by others -- I enjoy brewing maybe even more
than drinking.  The drink is the verification (or indictment!) of my work.
 Six hours in a chilly garage wearing blatantly-ugly plaid (yes, plaid)
flannel elastic-waist sweatpants and an old sweatshirt, smell of wort and
hops in the air, a football game on the little portable TV.  THAT'S a nice
Sunday.

Hobbies provide diversion, relaxation, and enjoyment.  Often, they produce
enjoyable products like furniture, music, clothes, vehicles that run, and
yes, beer.

Tell your wife to get her own hobby.  Or better yet, teach her to brew.

*****

Kirk Harralson wonders about using a tupperware lid as a diffuser for
returned/recirculated wort:

    "Lately, I have been wondering if this is not a recipe for channeling. 
     It seems like the sparge water would run down the edges of the grain 
     bed, and not distribute evenly.  Comments?"

Try a circular sheet of nylon needlepoint backing "fabric" from the crafts
store.  It's basically a coarse plastic mesh, so it breaks up the oncoming
wort but also allows it to flow into the tun across the entire surface of the
mash.  A 9" diameter circle will set you back about 50 cents.

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy


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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:32:40 PST
From: Scott Kaczorowski <kacz at nfs.aisf.com>
Subject: re:  simple sparging tip


Kirk Harralson says about what Alan Edwards says:

> I have always gently poured sparge water onto a saucer resting on top
> of the mash to minimize disturbing the grain bed.  This was not my
> original idea, of course, I read it in some introductory brewing book.
> Lately, I have been wondering if this is not a recipe for channeling.
> It seems like the sparge water would run down the edges of the grain
> bed, and not distribute evenly.  Comments?

It was just this observance (the mash actually pulling away from the
sides of my tun) that led me to "run the rakes."  I was also concerned
about the layer of goo that forms on the top of the mash (what's the
German name for that again?) as it looked less than hyper-permeable to
me.  So, at several times during the sparge I actually stir the top
*half* of the mash (I use a converted keg).  Sometimes this is six or
eight inches down.  This has no noticeable effect (to me) whatsoever on
the clarity of the runoff.  I think the concern with disturbing the
grain bed is perhaps overstated in some cases.

No, I don't think cooling overnight is OK...

I remember Al K. caught a little bit of grief (?) when he mentioned he
had been to England and seen some brewers using rakes.  I recently toured
Miller Brewing Co. in Irwindale, CA and Miller not only runs rakes
continuously through their sparge (1140bbl lauter tun!) but lowers them
continuously as well.  They end up 2.5 inches from the false bottom when
they're done.  So I guess I feel somewhat validated in my practice.  Give
it a, er, whirl...


Scott Kaczorowski
Long Beach, CA
kacz at nfs.aisf.com

   "Nothing's for certain, it could always go wrong"


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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:41:38 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Correction!!!--Wyeast Lager strains and higher fermentation t

From: "Charles L. Ehlers" <clehlers at flinthills.com>

> "Because I use a refrigerator w/ freezer, and still use the freezer, I
>have to rely on the  refrigerator's thermostat to control the temp.  No
>matter how HIGH (not low) I set the temp control for the freezer, the
temp
>doesn't GO ABOVE (not drop below) 45 degrees F.  It usually hangs
around 42
>degrees F."
>  I'm forced to lager below the optimum temperatures, and can't follow
the
>schedule Noonan recommends, but the yeast still ferments well.

If your refrigerator is like many, then some of the very cold air in the
freezer is blown into the main frige section.  Feel around the back wall
and look for a slot or air vent.  If you find it, block it where it
enters the frige section partially and this should render the
temperature warmer.  Give it a try.

Ron



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Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:55:26 -0500
From: ejb11 at psu.edu (Edward J. Basgall)
Subject: Homegrown hops

in HBD 2560 Don Van Valkenburg
steinfiller at juno.com wrote:

>However since making that post I have heard from several who had
>successfully used homegrown hops.  Along with these successes I would
>like them to report on how they processed their hops.

Hi Don & HBD Collective:
FWIW, I grow and use some of my homegrown Cascade hops here in Central PA.
I picked them as they were turning papery and dried them in a 5 tiered food
dehydrator with a circulating fan for 2-3 days (~$15US at Big Lots).  After
drying I packed 1 oz lots of the whole cones into Dazey Seal a Meal bags,
compressed them down by sandwiching between two boards prior to heat
sealing, and store them in my freezer.
So far, I have used them for dryhopping an Amer. Pale Ale with good
results, no off flavors or grassy aromas.  Smells like hops.  I can only
guess that they are around 5 %AA.  I have a short beer and hop section at
my web site with some photos if anyone is interested.

The URL is:  http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejb11/Homebrew.htm

cheers
ed basgall
SCUM
State College Underground Maltsters
State College,PA



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---