---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Grand Cru recipe (Ted_Manahan)
  UPS, Alcohol and minors (John E Carsten)
  kegging and cleanliness (Mark Swenson)
  .08, ha! (Jerry Cunningham)
  Yeast starters (Al Korzonas)
  Pre- boil HSA? (ricjohnson)
  Bakers' yeast (Jeff Renner)
  pH Adjustment in Sparge water and mash (James Tomlinson)
  Koelsch Korrections (kathy)
  M&F MO Not All Bad ("Val J. Lipscomb")
  Re:  Herb's Support Your Local Homebrew Shop... ("JBek")
  To Further Confuse the Grand Cru Debate... (Golgothus)
  Re-circulating ("David R. Burley")
  Ashburne and Bonlander malts (results)
  Whats up with B-brite/Idophor? (Ludwig)
  Local Homebrew Stores (Vachom)
  trub question (Christopher Peterson)
  Protein rests (George_De_Piro)
  Carboy Stirrer (bob_poirier)
  FWH? (Alan Edwards)
  .08 BAC ("Buchanan, Robert")
  Moving my hops ("Andrew Avis")
  Carbos and Beer - The Final Word ("Hans E. Hansen")
  microscopes (Herbert Bresler)
  The Best in Burners (Bill Giffin)
  Questions (Jonathan Ingram)
  Eric Schoville/Keg stratification (John Wilkinson)
  Homebrew Shops ("Mark S. Johnston")




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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:03:12 -0800
From: Ted_Manahan <tedm at hpcvn2ax.cv.hp.com>
Subject: Grand Cru recipe


I got several helpful e-mails about my question about the style of
Rodenbach Grand Cru. I also got several requests for the recipe. 

After doing another side-by-side, I have to confess that my beer isn't
as good as the Rodenbach. I think it's a credible approximation, but it
falls short in a few areas. 

The Rodenbach Grand Cru has a depth of flavor that I attribute to malt
background. My understanding from some posted Belgium trip reports is
that Rodenbach undergoes a long boil. That would contribute to the malty
complexity. My beer is somewhat thinner and lighter in color. It's also
a bit more acidic.

If I were to make this beer again, I would boil it for three or more
hours before adding the hops. I'd also do a shorter, higher temperature
mash and hold it on oak for longer. The beer would probably still be
missing something, but it should be closer.

Anyway, this is as well as I can reconstruct the recipe I used. For 50
liters (13 gallons): 

	22 lbs pale malt
	1  lb  20L Crystal
	.5 lb  wheat malt
	.5 lb  chocolate malt (?L)
	.5 lb  50L special roast
	2  oz  300L roast barley
	3  t   gypsum (I have soft water)
Mash at 155 F for two hours. 

        7  lbs light malt extract

	2  oz  6.1a domestic fuggles  70 minutes
	1  oz  5.6  Mt. Hood          60 minutes
	.5 oz  5.6a Mt. Hood          20 minutes
	.5 oz  6.1a domestic fuggles  10 minutes
	.5 oz  5.6a Mt. Hood           5 minutes

OG about 1.065

Ferment for 2 weeks with Wyeast 1098. Age in oak barrel four months with
Brett. Lambicus, Bruxellensis, and Dublinensis cultures. The oak had
previously held a couple batches of IPA and some white wine with
"malo-lactic bacteria". I don't know what "malo-lactic bacteria" is - I
got it from a local vinyard. Bottled September '97 at 1.007 FG.

In truth I was making a recreation of an 18th century English old ale.
This would be a strong ale drunk by itself by the wealthy, or mixed with
brown and dark ale to make a predecessor to today's porter.

There are historical and stylistic connections between these two styles.
Both beers would have aged for a long time in oak casks. Eugene
Rodenbach went to England to study brewing techniques in the 1870's
(Reference Jackson). I believe that the English "old ale" style was still
somewhat sour at that time.

I may enter it as a Flanders Oud Bruin, though it's too strong and sour
for that style. On the other hand, I may enter it as specialty. Thanks
for your help!



Return to table of contents


Date: 01 Apr 1998 11:00:49 -0600
From: John E Carsten <John.E.Carsten at oklaosf.state.ok.us>
Subject: UPS, Alcohol and minors

I spend a lot of time lurking, but since the HBD
 has broached a subject that is "in my field" so to 
speak, I figured I'd come out from under my rock for 
a few minutes.  I've worked in government, both at 
the congressional and state level.  I have sent e-mails
 to the bill's author, as well as my own congressman, 
but here's what I see when I look objectively at the bill.

The bill is H.R. 3537 by Juanita Millender-McDonald 
of California.  It places punishments of fines and jail 
time for any shipping company which deliver's alcohol 
to a minor.  The problem is obvious.  Most of us at the 
HBD are concerned that shippers will stop carrying 
alcohol altogether rather than try to mess with another
 worthless federal restriction.  The actual text of the 
legislation can be found at:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.3537:

She's a first-term Democrat, probably trying to 
hang her name on a "sexy" issue since she's
 up for re-election in 7 months.  "Sexy" meaning
 it's going to get her a lot of press coverage back
 in her district so that people will vote for her.

The bill was introduced last Tuesday with 16 
co-sponsors signing on at the time of introduction.
  So far it has picked up no more.  The bill was 
immediately shuffled off the Rep. Henry Hyde's 
Judiciary Committee.  As far as I can tell, there is
 no companion legislation in the Senate.  Of the 
16 who co-sponsored the bill, all are Democrats
 and two are delegates, which means if this bill ever
 gets to the House floor, they won't be able to vote 
on it anyway.

As for it ever getting to the House floor for a vote, 
consider a few facts.  There are a total of 17 Democrat 
names on this bill.  For those of you who have not read
 a paper in 4 years, the Republicans are in charge on
 Capitol Hill.  This is an election year, and this is a "feel
 good", "we're doing it all for our children" kind of issue. 
 The bottom line is, even if there were a handful of Republicans
 who would let this thing make it out of committee, in an election
 year when the Republicans are trying hard to remain in the
 majority, there is no way they are going to let the Democrats 
get away with a free hit like this.  Plus, the Judiciary Committee
 has several other bills on its plate.

Long story short, this bill will likely not be heard in committee 
before the summer recess.  After recess, all 435 Representatives
 and 5 delegates will be too busy trying to make sure they get
 sent back to DC next January.  Look for this thing to die a quiet
 death in committee.  If it's not out and on the floor by the time 
everybody goes home for Chirstmas, Ms. Millender-McDonald
 will have to run it again next time (if she's re-elected this fall).

Those of us who ship beer to contests via UPS and other 
delivery services, will still be able to do so in the forseeable 
future.  Sorry for the waste of space.


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:06:05 -0400
From: Mark Swenson <swenson at aoml.noaa.gov>
Subject: kegging and cleanliness

	I have recently acquired a Cornilius-type kegging set up.  I've
been pleased with the results, but I haven't hit upon an easy and reliable
procedure for maintaining cleanliness.  I wonder if any HBDers who have
more experience than I do would care to describe the essential aspects of
how to prepare the keg for the next batch of beer?  Basically what I want
to know is:  How do you clean and sanitize the keg and fittings?  I would
be happy to compile a summary of the responses if it is warranted.

	Thanks.

	Mark Swenson
	Key Biscayne, FL
	Miami Area Society of Homebrewers




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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 13:35:33 -0500
From: Jerry Cunningham <gcunning at census.gov>
Subject: .08, ha!

The legal blood alocohol limit in my house (which I never leave, due to
2 small kids and a pregnant wife) is .whatever-the-hell-I-want-it-to-be
 . When the 3rd child arrives, I will enact emergency legislation to have
it raised.

 - Jerry
  Annapolis, MD





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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:36:59 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Yeast starters

Ray writes:
>Question 1) Is it wise to save some of the sediment from the primary or
>the secondary.  

Yes.  Both.  ...but you will get different yeasts.  If you do this
repeatedly (reusing yeast over and over), you will select for
more flocculent yeast if you use yeast from the primary and less flocculent
yeast if you use yeast from the secondary.

>Question 2) If from the primary, what about all the proteins, dead
>yeast, etc. that will be mixed in with the sediment?

Dead yeast is not really a problem unless you repitch the WHOLE yeast
mass batch after batch.  After all, one of the best yeast nutrients is
dead yeast!  As for proteins/break, a little bit of that would be
beneficial and a lot would really only present problems for lagers
where you are trying to keep higher alcohol and ester production lower
(fermenting on break increases ester and higher alcohol production).

>Question 3) My goal is create a starter ahead of time and put it in my
>cooler to shorten the lead time.  Many times I don't know if I will be
>able to brew until a day or two ahead of time.

Well.... ideally, you would like to add a bit of sanitised wort a
day before use.  You want the yeast to be high in glycogen and starving
them is a sure way to get low-glycogen yeast.  Low-glycogen yeast
will produce more sulphur compounds, give lower attenuation and produce
more of the other byproducts.
 
>I prefer to use liquid yeast and would make a starter from these as
>opposed to collecting slurry from previous batches.  If I make a starter
>from liquid yeast:
> 
>Question 4) What should I store this starter with?  Additional wort,
>sterile water, boiled tap water, or nothing except the original contents
>of the starter?

I store the yeast under the original contents... every transfer risks
infection.  Then, a day or two before brewing, I'll feed the starter
and it will be just past high-kraeusen (the optimal time is just past)
at pitching time.  I will often dump the spent wort before feeding.

Oh... if you put the starter in the fridge with an airlock, I suggest
putting some cotton in the airlock (I use s-shaped glass airlocks for
starters) so that any air that gets sucked in during cooling is
somewhat filtered through the cotton.

>Question 5) How long can a starter be stored for?  

I've revived yeast from three-year-old Belgian ales... Then again, I
probably only had a few thousand live yeasts in the bottle... not
much of a starter, is it?  No, the longer it's stored, the more
dead yeast you'll have... if you feed the starter a day or two before
use, it' shouldn't be a problem.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

My new website (still under construction, but up-and-running):
     http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:06:49 -0500
From: ricjohnson at SURRY.NET
Subject: Pre- boil HSA?

While doing an extract/specialty grain batch last weekend I changed my
procedure a little.  As per Al K's (excellent) book I put 1 gal water in my
brewpot and steeped the grains at 170 for 30 min. Not per the book I added
my extract to this 1 gal of wort, then I added the additional water. I used
a pitcher and in haste just poured it in splashing and all. Will I
experience the effects of HSA by splashing the wort prior to the boil?

Richard Johnson
Mt. Airy, NC



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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:17:31 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Bakers' yeast

Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> asked:

>I don't know if bakers' yeast is Saccharomyces

Not only is it _Saccharomyces_, but _S. cerevisiae_ at that.  It was
derived from brewing yeasts during the last century and repeatedly
modified/improved.  The first commercial product was referred to as "German
yeast," from its origin, about 125 years ago or so.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 16:30:36 -0500
From: James Tomlinson <red_beards at compuserve.com>
Subject: pH Adjustment in Sparge water and mash

A short while ago I requested info on acid use in brewing. I was not
getting a decent hot or cold break after I started using lactic acid for
pH adjustments. Several people requested a copy of the answer.

Several people identified the problem: Too much acid. Al K. noted that
if I was reading my pH at room temp, I had to adjust it down by 0.3,
when considering that reading in the mash. I was adjusting directly by
that method, so I over acidified. I was using a range of 5.3-5.5. At
room temp, the proper range would be 5.6-5.8. I am now adjusting my
proceedures to use that level. This should cut my acid usage in by about
1/3.
- -- 
James Tomlinson
remove the "no.spam" to reply

Give a man a beer, and he wastes an hour.  
But teach a man how to brew, and he wastes a lifetime!




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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 16:41:44 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Koelsch Korrections

Thanks for all the first class responces to my questions.

I asked "if Wyeast 2565 through a particular DMS note" and two responces
said "not for them".  Two other responces said some DMS is
characteristic of Koelsch and the European varieties have a distinctive
nose from most domestic offerings.

It was pointed out gently but firmly that I had confused a diacytl rest
(buttery notes) practiced by pilsner brewers with a DMS rest.  Thanks
for being tender with the aged among you.

What seems to have happened. As I brewed on a bitter cold winter night
complete with snowbanks, I took advantage  of the snow bank to chill my
three brews.  Using the same methodology on all three batches (Koelsch,
abbey and lambic) only the koelsch was "korney"  I had covered all three
batches as they sat in the snowbank, but the koelsch was a significantly
larger batch and took longer to cool.

Opened the first bottle today and as long as I drink it without inhaling
it is a great beer.  Most non-beergeek people I have try beers, don't
inhale anyway so it may be OK.

cheers, jim booth, lansing, mi

p.s.  On the .08 question....one drink if you are dead tired produces as
much impairment as being .08.  Above all, don't drink and drive TIRED!



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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:57:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Val J. Lipscomb" <valjay at NetXpress.com>
Subject: M&F MO Not All Bad

Greetings All,

Just finished brewing an IPA using M&F Marris Otter malt. I've been putting
off using it because of George DePiro and others having problems with it. My
experience today was mostly positive. 11 pounds M&F and 1 pound Crystal 60
yielded an OG of 1.066 in a 5.25 gallon batch. I assume from this that,while
there are some bad lots around,it's not all bad. Take heart,all ye who had
bought it and dreaded trying it. Brewers Workshop says that's 81% extraction,
I,for one,can't bitch about that. Smelled great in mash and kettle and the
wort tasted good,too.

All that said, with a single temp infusion at 156F for 75-80 minutes,I did
end up with a *very* large amount of break material (2-3 inches in a 7 
gallon carboy). ??????

Val Lipscomb-brewing in San Antonio



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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 23:25:37 -0800
From: "JBek" <JBek at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re:  Herb's Support Your Local Homebrew Shop...

C'mon Herb, a homebrew business is just like any other.  If you don't
service the customer to the maximum or provide prices that beat all others,
your out of the running...

Why would I ever go out of my way to shmooz my local homebrew shop for
attention by bringing of brew and trying to strike up conversation with
someone who obviously doesn't care when I can get all of the info and good
prices right here or somewhere down the block...  If the owner isn't on top
of what his employees are doing that his her problem.

It's not the consumer who must create a niche for the small homebrew shop,
its the business owner who must make this effort to ensure his very own
survival!

Good luck to you (and your shop?)





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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 05:50:46 EST
From: Golgothus <Golgothus at aol.com>
Subject: To Further Confuse the Grand Cru Debate...

Hello again from the newbie who started the Great Grand Cru Debate...

		I don't know any of this for sure but here goes. In the four books that I
have: 1.) The New Complete Joy of Home Brewing, 2.) Dave Miller's Homebrewing
Guide, 3.) Homebrew Favorites (a recipe collection) and 4.) Homebrewing for
Dummies (Which I definitely needed :-) ), the information I can come up with
at this time states that the Grand Cru "Style" of ale is a Belgian White... I
have found no other reference to a Grand Cru being anything else (though the
Rodenbach Grand Cru which Malty Dog (Bill Coleman) states "is an entirely
different style, the Flanders Red, which is usually combined with Oud Bruin in
competition style" and I don't doubt him at all, as I said I am new to the
"real beer" world.) I have found several places where Grand Cru is called a
style or version of Belgian White or Wit though. I realize now that the AHA
has no "Grand Cru" category and that this is more than likely just a
misunderstanding among brewers terms for their beer, BUT:

	Ex 1:   On page 223 of The Complete Joy of... Papazian states "In the style
of a Belgian Whit beer flavored with coriander, orange peel and the spiciness
of German hops, Who's in the Garden Grand Cru is a copy of Belgium's
Hoegaarden Grand Cru Ale..."   I will give that he doesn't call it a style
(and I suspect he knows ;-) ) but he does state that it is a Belgian White...
so Steve Stroud is wrong in stating it isn't a White. I also freely admit that
in Papazian's recipe is has no wheat listed (but it has honey to lighten the
character of the wort). It's true I was thinking of Celis and Hoegaarden when
I posted my original thoughts on Grand Cru as a sub-style of White, and
everything I've found on-line suggests that they are, and on Celis's home page
he does discuss picking Texas for the Hard Winter Wheat for his White, but
again I am unsure if there is any wheat in the Grand Cru (perhaps someone will
be good enough to e-mail them and see if it does or not)
	Ex 2:   On page 291 of Dave Miller's book... He states, "The Belgian Wit
(White) beer, made with unmalted wheat and flavored with coriander and orange
peel as well as hops, has become very popular and is now being brewed in the
United States by Celis Brewing Company of Austin, Texas. A stronger version,
Grand Cru (Italics mine), is also available." 
	Ex. 3:  On page 91 of Homebrew Favorites, in discussing his beer "French
Boarder Guarde", Dan McConnell of the Ann Arbor Brewers Guild states, "This
beer is of the Grand Cru style (again italics mine) and has tremendous orange
nose." And just to confuse issues farther, there is no wheat in the recipe
that follows the introduction.
	Homebrewing for Dummies makes no mention of Grand Cru. But neither does it
mention Flanders Brown/Oud Bruin (Actually it has it listed as /DUB BRUIN
instead but that must be a typo) except to mention it is AHA Style 2a. (Does
anyone know where I can get a good description of ALL the AHA styles as they
are listed in the book? It has 28 basic plus sub-styles and I only have
profiles for about half of them. TIA.) 
		A final question on the White ... is Hoegaarden the same beer that Celis
brewed in Belgium? I know he had a "falling out" with the company that helped
him rebuild in the 80's after his brewery burned down in Hoegaarden ... and
that is responsible for his coming to the US... I was just curious if the
Hoegaarden White that is being made is based on his original recipe, as he was
the man responsible for bringing the style back in the first place. Let me
know if anyone has any info on that subject. TIA>
		I know this doesn't clear up the debate, but I don't feel so bad mistaking
it as a "style" now, as some of the-better-informed-than-I  have done the
same. I suppose the easiest thing to do is get in touch with the brewers of
"Grand Cru" and see if they are willing to tell us the basic ingredients of
their respective brews (i.e., wheat or not) and go by the AHA style guide for
our own brews ... what you put in is what it is, I think...
		Much thanks to all who helped me to understand what I could about the whole
thing ... perhaps someday we will be able to get this all straightened out,
till then I remain...

Michael Whitt
Brewster and Philosopher at Large
Bragi's Brewery
Mobile Al

Golgothus at aol.com
"He who lives by the skull, will die by the skull." (As I prove time and time
again... ;-) ).


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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:08:55 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Re-circulating

Brewsters:

Ron LaBorde says:

>(by the way,
>can anyone explain the difference between circulating and
>recirculating), 


It's done by the same people who pre-plan and
use new innovations.
- ----------------------------------------------------------
Dave Riedel after using protein rests and heat- up
through the protein rests came to this conclusion:

>I'm tempted to conclude (for this batch) that the low temp
>rests resulted in my very clear product.

This is exactly why I hold at 122F to reduce the beta glucans
and VLMW proteins to produce clarity.  I hold about
15 minutes at 122F heat up at 1 degree per minute
and go to 135F where I hold for 30 minutes before mashing
in boiling water and heating to the desired saccharification.I
do this for Pilsners and occasionally for pale ale malts
depending on the grist.  I never have any heading problems
and my beers are always clear despite low temperature
protein rest nay-sayers' comments.
- ------------------------------------------------------- 

Kyle Druey says:

>I have noticed that when I first start pouring from the keg
the beer is
>much thicker and meatier than at the end of the keg.
The last gallon or
>so is much lighter and thinner than the first gallon.
Seems like
>gravity takes effect and pulls the heavier ends
(technical term) toward
>the bottom to be consumed first.  Funny how gravity does that.

Gravity *would* be funny if it did that. Especially in the presence
of Brownian motion and other things like turbulent motion which
keeps things stirred up. Entropy wouldn't like it either.
Simple mixtures of gases and liquids do not separate out
under the influence of gravity.

I don't experience that thinning effect for beers months old, although
the older the beer, the less bitter it becomes.  This may be one
explanation to the mouth feel change and the other may be
that you have a mild infection which is raising the acidity of the
beer towards the end. Check the total acidity before and
during the storage and see.
- -----------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 07:27:27 -0600
From: results <results at win.bright.net>
Subject: Ashburne and Bonlander malts

Typical Malt Analysis
			Ashborn		Bonlander
plump			85%		85%
extract f.g,d.b.	80.5%		80.5%
extract C/F diff.	1.8%		1.8%
color			5.5L		8.5L
Diastatic		60		45
Total Prot.		10.5-11.5	10.5-11.5%
S/T Prot.		43%		40%

Both are Harrington malts.

I've samples of both of them and they taste good. At some point I'm
going to try something with them to see how they measure up...

Randy Lee
Viking Brewing Company
Dallas WI
http://www.win.bright.net/~results


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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:09:42 -0500
From: Ludwig <dludwig at us.hsanet.net>
Subject: Whats up with B-brite/Idophor?

Howdy,
I've been spring cleaning my beer making methods and just switched to
B-brite for cleaning and idophor for sanitizing. The B-brite came in a 5
lb bag (C&B) with no instructions. After searching on net, I found
references to mixing in "..hot water, the hotter the better" and using 1
tablespoon per gallon. Is this right? I have a problem with using hot
water in my carboys so I plan to use warm water. The package says:
"Contains sodium carbonate and sodium silicate". Sodium carbonate is
washing soda right? In Noonan's book, he says: "Washing soda is applied
hot. It is far less effective than other cleansers mentioned". I read a
reference to sodium perchloride (SP?) as being a prime ingredient in
B-brite for sanitizing in the HBD archives.  Not sure if this was the
right compound listed but it was PerChlor... something. What happened to
it? I'm not using b-brite for a sanitizer but what's up?

Also, regarding idophor scum, I've seen it too. Last night, after
cleaning a brand new carboy and soaking with idophor. Thin filmlike scum
floated to the top. What up up with that? I'm wondering whether I should
just go back to chlorox. 

Cheers,
Dave Ludwig


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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:20:45 -0600
From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
Subject: Local Homebrew Stores

	I agree heartily with the sentiment expressed in this recent string
that homebrewers should support their local supply shops.  I'm not sure
I'd go so far as to say that purchasing one's supplies from a mail-order
outfit will necessarily be contributing to the homogenization of
America.  Snarfing McDonald's, yes; I don't think we'll ever see
Homebrew Depot.  I do, however, believe that I'm in my right as a
consumer and member of the larger community to accept nothing short of
decent service.  
	I'm blessed with an excellent homebrew supply shop here in New
Orleans--an outfit name of BrewHaHa.  It's a small operation, can't
afford to stock lots of gadgets, and I don't necessarily always have a
choice amongst national origin of the same variety of malted grains,
but, in my point of experience in brewing, that isn't a problem.  My
biggest problem with the place is one to which I actively contribute,
namely mooning around the place, sampling whatever Mike has on tap and
chewing the fat with Mike and his customers.  On occasion I have to dash
in to pick up something after work and end up grumbling about the fact
that it took 20 minutes to pick up a packet of yeast Mike popped for me
that morning.  But I'm in the store two days later preventing some other
poor bastard from making a quick trip for bottlecaps.  In the end, I'd
rather have to wait around those few times a month than have Mike
actively or tacitly running me or other homebrewers out of the place and
turning the prevailing ethic into a, well, McHomebrew.  I would be
willing to cease business with a homebrew supply shop where that was the
prevailing ethic, where, in some way, the owners/employees made it clear
that they don't have time to offer advice or talk about brewing.  I
would also draw the line with a supply shop that knowingly sold me
inferior materials.  I would also stop frequenting a place where any
kind of homebrewing snobbery or zealotry existed amongst the employees
or owners--whether it be extract/all-grain or beer styles or procedures.
  Part of acting locally is ensuring that the local service is of better
quality than the mega-corporation.


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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 10:28:07 -0500
From: Christopher Peterson <peterson at ucmg65.med.uc.edu>
Subject: trub question

Collective: I generally leave the trub in my primary fermenter. I know
Please comment what this does to the flavor of the beer. 
Christopher Peterson
peterson at molgen.uc.edu


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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:28:59 -0800
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Protein rests

     Hi all
     
     Dave Reidel writes in to report that he has made a clear, poor-head 
     wheat beer.  He rested at ~113F and 122F (45C and 50C).  He asks if 
     this contradicts Kunze, because he used a protein rest and got 
     unusually clear beer.
     
     Actually, what Dave did supports Kunze, and it supports my preaching 
     about losing protein rests.
     
     Kunze states that it is high molecular weight (HMW) protein 
     degradation products that lead to haze.  These HMW protein degradation 
     products are actually MMW (mid-molecular weight) proteins that not 
     only cause haze (in conjunction with polyphenols), but give a beer a 
     good head and body.
     
     Kunze states that modern malts are all well modified, and contain 
     enough MMW proteins for adequate head retention and body.  Doing a 
     high temp protein rest will form an over abundance of these MMW 
     proteins, increasing haze potential.
     
     Low temp protein rests like Dave did breakdown these MMW proteins, 
     thus yielding very clear beer.  Unfortunately, the resulting beer will 
     also be thin and headless, EVEN WHEN USING WHEAT MALT.
     
     I learned this myself a while ago:  even when making wheat beer, 
     minimize the time the mash is at 113-131F (45-55C).  Otherwise you end 
     up with headless KrystalWeizen!
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 10:15:44 -0600
From: bob_poirier at adc.com
Subject: Carboy Stirrer


        Way back in HBD #2570 (November '97), John Schnupp gave details 
     about a magnetically coupled flask stirrer that he put together for 
     $0.  He uses this contraption to stir his yeast starters, effectively 
     aerating the starter for the required period of time during yeast 
     growth (correct?).
        I've recently read something somewhere (Brewery B-Board?) that says 
     you should aerate the wort with oxygen via an aeration stone for 
     specific lengths of time, at specific intervals, after the yeast is 
     pitched, in order to promote healthy yeast.
        Instead of the aeration stone, how about adapting John's flask 
     stirrer to work with a carboy, or, with a plastic bucket, for that 
     matter?
        Any thoughts?
     
        Bob Poirier
        bob_poirier at adc.com - private e-mail OK.




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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:10:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com>
Subject: FWH?


I've read several posts that mention this, but must have missed something.
What exactly is First Wort Hopping?
What is it supposed to do for the beer?


Thanks!
 -Alan in Fremont, CA


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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:49:12 -0500
From: "Buchanan, Robert" <RBuchanan at ChristianaCare.org>
Subject: .08 BAC

For my first posting I apologize in advance for joining the .08 BAC
flame that's been posted here for the past week or so.  I am in
agreement with most that this is an infraction on our rights and a first
step to further restrictions, however the people have spoken. On the
national news Wednesday evening it was reported that the portion of the
Federal Highway Bill which included the .08 BAC restriction for federal
funds was dropped form the bill.  Hey let's go have a homebrew !! Can we
at least for now, focus on more practical brewing issues and less on
political ones ?  While we must constantly be aware of how the political
cronies wish to further special intersts by legislating morality we
should move on to more practical considerations.

Bob Buchanan
Give a man a beer and he wastes an hour.
Teach a man to brew and he wastes a lifetime.



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Date: 2 Apr 1998 11:39:48 -0700
From: "Andrew Avis" <Andrew.Avis.0519423 at nt.com>
Subject: Moving my hops

It's spring, so I suppose a flood of hop growing questions is not far 
behind.  I'm pleased to post the first one: I'm moving, and I'd like to 
take my cascade hop plant with me.  Is it wise to dig up the plant before 
any growth is visible, or should I wait until the vine has started to 
grow?

Regards,

Andrew Avis
Calgary


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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 12:52:45 
From: "Hans E. Hansen" <hansh at teleport.com>
Subject: Carbos and Beer - The Final Word

Thanks to all for the various e-mails on this subject.

In Monday's (March 30) HBD, Peter A. Ensminger
(ensmingr at npac.syr.edu) listed the following page for
beer calorie and carbo info:

http://www.npac.syr.edu/users/ensmingr/beer/beerdata.html

I didn't find the tables of much use to me, but the technical notes
at the end explained all.  Given were formulas for figuring out
calories from the starting and ending gravities.  The amount of
carbohydrates weren't given directly, but can be extracted out 
of the Calorie formula:

Carbohydrates (grams/100 ml) = (RE-0.1) * FG ; where RE is Real Extract
To get per 12 oz bottle, multiply by 3.55.

The formulas are very straight forward, but can be a little tedious
 if you are comparing several beers.  I have written a short
QuickBasic program that does it all for you.  If anybody is interested,
I will email it.  My simple e-mail program only allows 1 attachment,
so specify whether you want the source (.BAS) or the executable (.EXE).


Hans E. Hansen
hansh at teleport.com




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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:52:55 -0500
From: Herbert Bresler <bresler.7 at osu.edu>
Subject: microscopes

I'd like to add to AJ's <ajdel at mindspring.com> comments about Phase
Contrast microscopy vs. bright field.

>RE: some comments on phase contrast vs. brightfield microscopes I made
>recently. Last night I did a viability check on some yeast from my last
>batch and, with the post in mind, looked at the cells with brightfield
>as well as phase contrast at 400X. Phase contrast may make things a
>little easier to see but the vacuoles were plainly visible with
>brightfield as well. Based on last night's experience I'd relegate phase
>contrast to "nice to have" status but definitely not necessary.

Absolutely correct!  Phase is an expensive option that is not necessary.
It also requires considerable knowledge and experience to properly adjust
it.  If not properly compensated for, even the slides you are using can
interfere with it (something to consider when using hemacytometer slides
for counting).  You can get a satisfactory "phase effect" using a
regular light (bright field) microscope by racking the light condenser way
down; the poor man's phase contrast.  I use it all the time for doing
counts and viability determinations with trypan blue and it works great.
The live cells appear bright against the "phase" darkened background.

Yeast ranching in Columbus, Ohio,
Herb
bresler.7 at osu.edu




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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:00:52 -0500
From: Bill Giffin <billg at ctel.net>
Subject: The Best in Burners

Top of the morning to yea all,

I read the article published in Zymurgy on burners with a bit of interest
until the author of the article stated that the means of testing probably
wasn't appropriate to come up with any conclusions other then gas consumption.

Brewing beer is not the same as heating two gallons of water to boiling,
then extrapolating those result to how well the burners would perform for
the homebrewer.  I do hope that  the folks conducting the test had a good
time drinking beer and watching water boil as the only thing of importance
that happened that day was a few folks got together and enjoyed a couple of
beers.   Certainly the test of the burners was meaningless.

The conclusion stated in the article on the Superb PC-100  "A more
practical use for the burner would be an outdoor alternative to your
kitchen stovetop for a small-scale, extract brewing setup."  Is pure
nonsense!  I have used the Superb 35,000 Btu burner for over 7 years and
brewed in excess of 200 batches of all grain beer with this burner.  After
I had used the Superb for 15 or so batches I got an 170,000 Btu burner and
used that for a few batches then went back to the Superb as it was superb
to the higher out put burner.

The Superb will easily bring seven to eight gallons of wort to a wonderful
rolling boil and do so without using a whole 20-pound tank of propane.  The
burner will also step mash or decoction mash raising the mash temperature
at the appropriate 2-degrees F per minute.  What more can you ask for?

Is Zymurgy so desperate for articles that it will allow any bit of crap to
be the cover story?  

Bill












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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:32:42 -0500
From: Jonathan Ingram <jgi105 at psu.edu>
Subject: Questions

I posted a question about a honey ginger recipe last week, now I have some
more questions about it. After feedback I switched the amount of ginger to
apx. 2 ozs
However, I brewed last Wed. with the following recipe: 3 lbs light DME, 2.5
lbs light clover honey, 3/4 lb crystal malt, 1.5 oz Cascade (boiling), .5
oz Cascade (finishing), 1 Pkg. Wyeast American Ale yeast. After I brewed
and added to my primary it was 9 balling. I took a sample yesterday (its
still fermenting) and it was down to 1 balling. This would have an 8%
alcohol level already. Can this be right? Then I tasted my sample and it
was very bitter. Is this the ginger I'm tasting? and will this mellow out
with age? This is only my 4th batch and my first batch with liquid yeast
and "real" grains. So any help is appreciated. My second question is, how
would I go about harvesting the yeast off the bottom of  my primary. And
what should I put it in? Can I just take the slurry off the bottom and
store it in a large beer bottle? And then how would I use this yeast next
time I needed it? Would I have to use this yeast in the same recipe, or
could I use it for any ale recipe? Thanks for any help. -Jon



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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 98 17:50:27 CST
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Eric Schoville/Keg stratification

Eric Schoville wrote:

>The only disadvantage is that 12 gallons of beer in a SS keg is 
>heavy!  Of course with my Arnold Schwartzeneggeresque physique 
>it poses no problem, but for all of you girly men out there, you 
>might need some help!

Gosh, Eric, you must have been pumping a lot of iron since the last time I
saw you!

Kyle Druey wrote:

>I have noticed that when I first start pouring from the keg the beer is
>much thicker and meatier than at the end of the keg.  The last gallon or
>so is much lighter and thinner than the first gallon.

I have thought I had just the opposite.  My beers seem to be heavier and maybe
even sweeter at the end than at the beginning.  I thought maybe some of the hop
bitterness had mellowed out leaving the malt flavor more prominent.
I dunno.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkns at wss.dsccc.com


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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:26:10 -0500
From: "Mark S. Johnston" <msjohnst at talon.net>
Subject: Homebrew Shops

To those who complain of the service they receive at their local homebrew
shop, I can only say: "Be grateful that you have one." My local supplier
announced last Monday that they were going out of business. I got there
today and the shelves were fairly cleaned out. A few others in this area
have made noises that their longevity in the business is threatened as
well. 

The bottom line seems to be that there are fewer homebrewers than a few
years ago, current homebrewers are brewing less often, and those that do
are finding alternate sources for their supplies. 

Brew-Ha-Ha, Ltd. RIP.


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