---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  A more appropriate reply about Koelsch (Deb Jolda)
  02 content and SPAM (Charles Hudak)
  FWH Flavor (Chas Peterson)
  Re:  False bottom problems ("Mark Nelson")
  SPAM and the HBD ("Lutzen, Karl F.")
  Skunky Samuel Smith ("David R. Burley")
  Wyeast 1007 German Ale (Zurekbrau)
  Dandelion Wine/Split Thy Skull (John Varady)
  SABCO Brew Magic (John Wilkinson)
  CP Filling PET Bottles (KennyEddy)
  pub crawl IS 69/65 (kathy)
  Old beermaking information (Jeremy Bergsman)
  starters/wort aeration/yeast (Domenick Venezia)
  CO2 hazard levels ("Jesse Benbow")
  Thanks, Easter Bunny! (Dave Mundo)
  Phil's Phloater Hell ("Spies, James")
  Oregon Pale Ale experiment (smurman)
  CO2 Detectors (Paul Niebergall)
  Priming rates (Pete Kapusta)
  RE:Co2 detectors (Brad Johnson)
  Re: Sam Smith clear bottles (Alan Edwards)
  Jethro's Barleywine ("Dave Draper")
  Keg Leakage ("Barry Wertheimer")
  Gott vs Igloo (Terry White)
  Gott/Igloo (John Wilkinson)
  Chemistry Help (Sherry Heflin)
  Al tubing (Dana Edgell)




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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:17:14 -0700
From: Deb Jolda <editor at brewtech.com>
Subject: A more appropriate reply about Koelsch

To all who would brew classic Koelsch:

First, let me apologize in advance for the length of this posting -- I
believe a thorough response is in order, and I hope you will bear with me.

HBD readers were recently privy to a private e-mail reply I made to Louis
Bonham about the recent Koelsch controversy. The reply to Louis was
intended to be a quick acknowledgment of his message, with a thoughtful
formal response to the various criticisms to come the next day, but the
virtually immediate, inadvertent publication of my note has taken things on
an unexpected turn. I apologize for the mishap and particularly to Mike
Allred, David Rinker, and Scott Murman, who raised the initial criticisms,
for any appearance of disrespect. I would never intentionally post anything
to the HBD without full propriety and attribution.

Let me assure you that we at BT are solid in our commitment to providing
well-researched, quality information to our readers. We appreciate the
support of the dedicated brewers who have been loyal to our magazine over
the years, as well as the valuable exchange of information in the HBD. I
hope that you all continue to express your concerns (and yes, BTW,
compliments are welcome, too), in our quest to encourage everyone who's
brewing to aspire to brewing better beer -- home and craft brewers alike.
We have always strived to be responsive to reader criticisms, as our
Letters and Reader Tech Notes sections demonstrate (BTW, I would welcome
your submissions regarding the Koelsch article).

The author in the article in question came through in the clutch for us
after another author dropped out at the last minute. The space had already
been allotted, and we didn't have another Styles column on deck. Forrest
didn't have time to do all the research that he (or we) would optimally
like to have done, and we decided that more of a personal perspective would
not be entirely inappropriate. As Bryan Gros pointed out in his April 6
posting, "different authors have different goals with their articles."
Perhaps we can offer more information in a follow-up article. (And Bryan,
have you read Roger Bergen's online article on stouts:
http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/styles/1_4style.html ? I have
indeed been considering future articles focused solely on substyles. Ideas
are welcome.)

Some of the weaknesses of the article that have been pointed out in this
forum were raised during review and editing, but our publication schedule
precluded us from being able to thoroughly address them. (It should also be
noted that in this case, Martin Lodahl's own schedule did not permit more
involvement in the article, and therefore none of the criticism should be
directed his way.) I'm sure the delay in a response from Forrest was due to
the rigors of his own schedule and was not intended as a dismissal of the
concerns. David Rinker has raised several good, specific points, and some
of the ambiguous or erroneous phrasing can indeed be attributed to poor
editorial choices. (I am especially dismayed about the improper use of the
word "respiration" with regard to yeast in brewing, which as you know, we
have disavowed in several articles.) As is always our policy, these and any
other reported errors in the article will be researched and needed
corrections will be published in the magazine.

As much as we would like to believe to the contrary, publication is seldom
a clean, flawless process. Articles are selected and slotted for
publication based on many variables, most importantly on the relevance of
the information to be presented and on the overall editorial mix of the
magazine. Our typical editorial process involves substantial peer review,
author revisions, and editing over the course of several months. Often,
further questions are raised during the editorial process in an attempt to
clarify ambiguous points and to improve the presentation of the material.
But alas, sometimes the schedule and the content mix of the magazine force
us to override the optimal process. We also have to defer to the schedules
of our authors, and we also try to remain accessible to late-breaking
information or the occasional killer article that arrives late. It's that
kind of flexibility that I think sets us apart from many other
publications.

We are proud of our editorial integrity and standards, and have been known
to delay the production schedule to make sure the editorial content is up
to snuff. Unfortunately, we are not always perfect in our execution. As Jim
Busch points out in his April 6 posting, even when you read something 100
times, errors still slip through. We are not infallible; nor are our
reviewers and authors, most of whom offer their services as a labor of
love. The Koelsch article is a case in point.

Please accept my professional apology for whatever in BT has failed to live
up to expectations and my commitment to keep on pursuing the highest
editorial standards in the future. I do find it worth noting, though, that
BT has set such high expectations in the first place, and that even our
critics think that the balance of articles are excellent.

The criticisms and suggestions that I hear only incline me to work even
harder to ensure that the information we provide is as accurate and useful
as possible to a wide body of brewers. We are always working to improve
both content and process, and  I believe we have a clear vision: we don't
condescend, we offer a forward perspective to brewers who want to be
successful, and we want our magazine to reflect the passion we share with
our readers.

Please feel free to express yourselves to me so we can all work together in
our pursuit of better beer. Furthermore, I invite all of you to submit your
own articles for publication. The more articles and article ideas
submitted, the better able we are to provide a mix of quality information.
Our author guidelines that detail our policies and processes are available
at your request (I just found out the web link to the guidelines doesn't
work, but I'll make sure it's up soon; in the meantime, I can send an
e-mail version to anyone who's interested).

Tell me more.

- --Deb Jolda
Managing Editor
BrewingTechniques


Deb Jolda, Managing Editor, BrewingTechniques
The brewer's magazine        http://brewingtechniques.com




Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:46:46 -0700
From: Charles Hudak <cwhudak at gemini.adnc.com>
Subject: 02 content and SPAM

Chris writes:

>Ok, I may get slammed for this, but I believe that CO2 is not
>harmful to a human directly, afterall it's in the air we all breath,
>along with other gases.  What you should be worried about is
>the amount of oxygen (O2) in the air, which (last time I checked)
>is what is required for us to live.

I'm no doctor but I would venture a guess that high C02 concentrations can
have a deleterious effect on the body due to the tendency for high blood
gas concentrations of C02 to cause the pH of the blood to drop.

> I think, but don't quote me on this, that the
>average amount of O2 in air should be around 13-17%, the rest
>is mainly nitrogen (N2), with other gases taking up about 1%.
>

You said it so I'll quote you. The actual value is about 19-20%. Most O2
meters sound a low oxygen warning at about 19.2%.

>So, the real danger with CO2 is if its increase in concentration is
>effecting the concentration of O2 in the air.  

As I said above, I don't think that it is that simple or that benign. 

On another note:

>Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:23:43 -0400
>From: info at inexchange.net (Information Desk)
>Subject: Advertisement: Website Hosting
>

Comeon guys, are you asleep at the wheel? What the hell is the deal with
this spam crap making it past the janitors? Hope this won't be a trend.

C--


Charles Hudak in San Diego, California (Living large in Ocean Beach!!)
cwhudak at adnc.com
ICQ# 4253902
"If God had intended for us to drink beer, he would have given us stomachs."
- --David Daye




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:05:42 -0400
From: Chas Peterson <chasp at digex.net>
Subject: FWH Flavor

HBD -

Since using the FWH technique more agressively, I too have noted that I've
*overshot* the hop flavor component of many of my beers.  I have not noted,
however, any substantial carry-over in hop aroma.  

I was also wondering, does anyone count hops added at knockout in the
overall flavor category?  Until recently, I only considered that hops a
knockout to contribute aroma, but perhaps they do contribute some flavor as
well; after all, they are sitting in some pretty hot wort for 10 minutes or
so.  Is boiling absolutely required to extact flavor, or is this simply a
commonly accepted rule to ignore flavor contributions from steeped hops?
If there is measurable flavor contributions from steeped hops, then this
may be more likely to be the culprit I need to focus on in *controlling* my
hop flavor balance rather than FWH.

Chas Peterson
Laytonsville, Md
- ------------------------------------


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:42:16 -0400
From: "Mark Nelson" <menelson at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re:  False bottom problems

Stephen asks about his stuck sparges and Phloating Phalse Bottom.

There are a couple of ways to secure your false bottom so that it doesn't
float and let grain underneath.  First, you could just weight it down with a
glass paperweight or other appropriate weight.  Second, you could replace
the flexible nylon hose connection from the false bottom to the drain with a
rigid plastic tubing (ie, a piece of racking cane).  Next, you could make a
loop of nylon tubing, secure the two ends together and place this on top of
the false bottom after installation.  The trick is to make the loop a little
bit larger than the inner circumference of the cooler, so that it fits very
snugly.

In all cases, it helps to gently pour the strike liquor into the tun so that
there's not much agitation to lift the false bottom.  I fill the tun, then
add about 75% of the grain, give it a good stir, then add the rest.  I don't
add the grain first to hold down the false bottom.

Hope that helps.

Mark Nelson
Windhund Brauerei
Atlanta Georgia

** return e-mail has been spam-proofed.



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:00:12 -0500
From: "Lutzen, Karl F." <kfl at umr.edu>
Subject: SPAM and the HBD   

> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:46:46 -0700
> From: Charles Hudak <cwhudak at gemini.adnc.com>
> Subject: 02 content and SPAM

> >Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:23:43 -0400
> >From: info at inexchange.net (Information Desk)
> >Subject: Advertisement: Website Hosting
> >
> 
> Comeon guys, are you asleep at the wheel? What the hell is 
> the deal with
> this spam crap making it past the janitors? Hope this won't 
> be a trend.

No, it is not a trend. The moderation policy that is used by
the janitors of the HBD is a low level moderation policy.
With a very short queue of articles to be posted, SPAM has
the chance to make it through to a digest if neither janitor
catches the errant post prior to the digest going out. That
is the way we set it up:  Allow all posts through, unless
the janitor blocks them.

I'm not sure what happened to Pat this weekend, but I know
that I was no where near a computer all weekend. (at the 
controls of a garden tiller. ugh!) With a short digest
queue, it is possible for more spam to get through.
That said, here are some suggestions:

1) Everyone increase posting activity to the HBD (posts
should contain GOOD BEER/HOMEBREW related material though).
With a 24-48 hour delayed queue, we can catch offensive
material.

2) Get over your SPAM-phobia.  Life on the internet
will be plagued with SPAM for years to come.  We will do
our part to keep the spam out, but occasionally, something
will slip by.  We chastise ourselves enough when this 
happens, and we don't need readers complaining about it
to us and please remember, we do this on a volunteer basis. 
Give enough grief, and we'll stop moderating completely. 
(idle threat, in reality)

3) Complain to your Congressperson and get laws passed 
allowing users to do evil things to those who post SPAM!

Back to beer-talk!


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:04:27 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Skunky Samuel Smith

Brewsters:

Alan Talman says in relaying his discussion on why Samuel Smith
uses clear glass bottles:

>Some mention of the fact that the beer itself is
>very dark would also help reduce skunking was made.
>[ I find that idea preposterous]

Preposterous sounding or not, it is true.  The coloring agents
in the beer (just like the coloring agents in the glass) act as
absorbents and energy transfer agents to significantly reduce
the skunking of dark beers. Sort of a built-in sunscreen.

The absorbing agents are not the same agents which react
to produce skunkiness. Skunkiness is a disease of light colored
beers, by in large.


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:07:33 EDT
From: Zurekbrau <Zurekbrau at aol.com>
Subject: Wyeast 1007 German Ale

To: Omar Caballero - Aurora, IL
Subject: Useing Wyeast 1007 German Ale

When I want to brew a clean tasteing beer with very little yeast flavor this
is the yeast I use.  I brewed a pilsner last summer with that yeast and was
very happy with it. 

Rich Zurek
Zurekbrau at aol.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:22:49 -0700
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Dandelion Wine/Split Thy Skull

As I got set to cut the lawn at my new house for the first time, I noticed
the hundreds of dandelions popping up everywhere. So I got out a bucket and
picked them all. I got about a gallon of dandelion heads in total (I hope
to get another gallon of heads today in the field by work at lunch time).
Will an experienced dandelion wine maker please comment on the following
recipe:

Dandelion Wine (2 gallons)

2 gallons dandelion heads
2 gallons water
3.5 pounds raw Wild Flower Honey
1 pound raw sugar
8 oz White Grape Juice Concentrate
16 oz of tea
Zest of 2 lemons
Zest of 2 oranges

Clean the dandelions of most of the green parts and add to 2 gallons
boiling water. Soak for 2 days and squeeze and strain. Add water back to 2
gallons and a bring to a boil. Add the zest of lemons and oranges and the
raw sugar and boil for 1/2 hour. Add the honey, grape juice and tea, mix
well and chill to 70F. Pitch yeast.


Questions:
I have compiled several recipes and came up with this one. The one thing
that I am uncertain on is the use of honey in this recipe. All others I
have seen called for just sugar, but I have 60 pounds of wild flower honey
in my garage. Will honey make a big difference in the final flavor?

My guess is that the tea is included for the tannins it will provide that
would have come from the grape skin if whole grapes were used. Is this a
good idea?

Some recipes call for the juice and pulp of the lemons/oranges to be added
as well as the zest. Should I consider this in my version?

I am hoping for an OG of about 1090 and am thinking of using my old fav
1056 for the ferment. I have produced nice meads/ciders in this range with
1056. Should I use a mead or wine yeast instead?

**********

I attended the Split Thy Skull Barley Wine tasting in Philly this past
weekend. Some really good barley wines and some terrible. My favorites:

Big Hole Brewmasters Reserve 1997: Full of hop flavor without the hop
bitterness. A big beer that didn't taste it at 11.25% ABV. The key to its
huge hop flavor was that it was only 3 months old. It was also woefully
under carbonated but I guess that will be solved as it ages. Unfortunately,
aging will also take away some of the massive hop flavors as well.

Anderson Valley Horn of a Beer: This was a very nicely balanced beer, nice
hop flavor and bitterness with all the malt it needed to back it up.

St Stan's Barleywine: This reminded me of Hair of the Dog's Adambier, a
very nice beer with almost an old ale profile.

Other notables were: Victory Old Horizontal, Brooklyn Monster and Anchor
Old Foghorn (no surprises there).

The two beers that they reserved for late afternoon tapping were Dock
Street B & R Barleywine 1997 and J.W. Lee's Harvest Ale 1996. They could
have reserved both of them till next year if you ask me as I found both
terrible and not worth the hype.

Rouge Old Crustacean 1996 could have waited another year as the bitterness
was overwhelming and got in the way of enjoyment.

The remaining two beers were not barley wines at all but Belgians: Achouffe
N'Ice Chouffe (which tasted to me like a 10% ABV Moosehead) and Van
Honesbrouck Kasteel Golden Tripel d'Or which had a cider-like smell and
aftertaste.


A fun afternoon, but expensive! They were getting $2.75 for a 4 oz glass.
I left drunk and broke (but I did save enough to pay SEPTA to get me home).

Peace!

John

PS> I looked out for Mikey's Monster Brew but never saw you. I was wearing
a black Tiptina's shirt.


John Varady                     http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Boneyard Brewing                The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
Glenside, PA                    rust1d at usa.net
   



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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 98 09:44:41 CDT
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: SABCO Brew Magic

Does anyone have an opinion or experience with a Sabco Brew Magic RIMS system?
Private e-mail is fine as this may be of limited interest to the general
readership.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:49:24 EDT
From: KennyEddy <KennyEddy at aol.com>
Subject: CP Filling PET Bottles

Steve Cavan wrote of the horrors of CP filling PET bottles:

"I then grabbed some regular PET beer bottles (12oz size), and
again the rubber bung was too small for the bottle opening."

Sacrifice one PET bottle's cap by drilling a 5/8" hole in it.  Then put the
cap on each bottle you fill; the stopper will seat nicely in the hole.  Remove
the filler and replace the holy cap with the original (unholy?) one.  Keep the
holy one around for future use with your PETs.  Jeez, this must sound like
some animal-sacrifice cult liturgy.

BTW one other common complaint about commercial CP fillers is that the fill
tube is too long or too short for this bottle or that one.  One suggestion is
to cut the tube short, then attach "extensions" of various lengths (made from
copper or other metal tubing) using a short piece of vinyl tubing as a
coupler.

*****
Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:21:20 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: pub crawl IS 69/65

I want to thank the HBD respondents especially Dave Bartz of
Indianapolis, David Luckie of Mobile, AL and Steve Johnson of Nashville
for their considerable assistance. The following has NO INSIGHTS
WHATSOEVER into homebrewing and please page down if brewpubs aren't of
interest.

With apologies to brewers in Port Huron, Flint, Lansing, and Battle
Creek, MI, our first stop on the IS 69/65 crawl was Sat nite at the
Broad Ripple Brewing, in the northside of Indianopolis.  The British
style ales were right up my ally with the ESB being my favorite for the
trip and their Lawnmower was my wife's choice for the trip.  The fish
and chips was to style also.

Boscos in Nashville TN was next and the aggressive hopped IPA was good
but maybe a bit hoppy for my Sunday brunch taste as was the lamb stew
too intense, but the fratatta was excellent as was the jazz combo.

Monday lunch was at the Montgomery (AL) Brewing Company and my wife
pronounced their Key Lime Pie as the best of the trip.  This brewpub had
excellent fast service and supurb food.  Their cherry wheat beer was
served with a marischino cherry and I recommend the cherry.

Monday nite thru Wed lunch at the Gulf Shores area was out of brewpub
reach, but the Wolf Bay Fish House off Alabama Highway 20 had excellent
fried seafood, generous portions, $2/bottle Heineken (no regional beers
even Dixie), and a waiting line on a cool Tuesday night.  Cotton's at
Orange Beach had a Po Boy crawdaddy(deep fried) sandwich, which was
quite tasty, and I still look forward to the spicy assed mudbug version.

Mobile had the Port City Brewing Co. with pressed Cuban sandwiches,
cheese filled hot pretzels, and generally great food.  Lucretia, our
waitress was a home brewer, knowledgeable about beers, and 28, blond,
slim and single.  The American style ale she touted as her favorite was
a bit hoppy (Cascades) for my tastes, but was a nice addition to the
choice of brews.  My wife enjoyed Lucretia's enthusiam, the food and the
2nd floor balconies the brewpub offers to enjoy Mobile's street scene.

Mobile also offers Wintzell's Oyster House with oysters on the half
shell at $6.95 per doz and Bass ale, which is tough tough competition
for any brewer.

All good things must end and we had to depart Mobile for the funeral of
a friend who got kicked by a horse and died of internal injuries.  Watch
out for those hayburners and remind your significant other of the
hazards of hobbies other than homebrewing. 

Breckenridge Brewery in S/S Birmingham was our next stop for TGIF with a
friendly atmosphere and some chicken and ribs. Pallets of sacked malt
about the brewpub answered my questions of their choices in malts. A
trip up the statue Vulcan (the God of the furnaces and the metal
industies) which overlooks the brewpub area, gave a great view of
Birmingham.

A late Sat night post funeral stop in Nashville at Blackstone's was a
proper cap on the pubs portion of the trip.  Dave Miller's the brewer
(the hostess said of my inquiry if he was around sat nite...."He's got
the best hours, strictly M-F").  The total beer menu was fabulous with a
Koelsch as the transition beer offering, a medal winning brown, a clean
German alt, and the best stout of the trip.  I appreciated the IBU's and
OG's being published for each of the samplings.  The food was as tasty
as the beer offerings, and while having classic beer styles and while
not having the aggressive hopped American pale ales some prefer, it was
delightful and a mandatory stop to reference your beer taste.

All in all our trip south was delightful.  The occasional bumper
sticker  declaring  "Dead yankees don't lie", my cousins husband
(retired) who wants the US to apoligize for invading the south rather
that for slavery, and Confederate War Memorials lauding the "Knightlies
of the Knightly Race" were offset by a recent serious efforts in the
museums to tell the story of all the people of the south.

Thanks again to the HBD'rs for their directions.  cheers,  jim booth,
lansing, mi



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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:43:37 -0700
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Old beermaking information

After my grandfather died a few years ago my mother found his old
beermaking instructions.  I just came across these while going 
through my garage and I thought someone might be interested.  They
include decoction mashing, fermenting, bottling, and kegging, as well as
a list of needed equipment, including directions for fabricating some of
the equipment. All on 3.5 pages! There is also another half page that
describes the recipe for one particular batch made on November 28, 1931.

http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb/beerstuff/fritz.html
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:46:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: starters/wort aeration/yeast


In HBD 2686 John_E_Schnupp at amat.com asks:
>When people talk about pitching a one quart starter, do they mean
>that they have one quart of yeast slurry?  Or does that include
>the spent starter wort?

I believe that the designation "one quart starter" refers to the total
volume of the starter, wort and yeast combined.  

This brings up an issue that I've been considering for years and would
like to throw open for comment.  1 quart is 5% of the volume of a 5 gallon
batch.  As the yeast gurus here have pointed out, growing yeast is NOT
making beer.  Taste your starters - yuck!  So we carefully design our
brews then contaminate our beloved recipes with 5% starter solution.
Assume a 1.045 OG starter and 1.045 OG for the grain bill below, then
consider the percentages.  9 lbs pale, 1 lb crystal, 1/2 lb aromatic is
86% pale, 9% crystal, and 5% aromatic.  Into this one dumps about 5%
starter.  The starter may have as much flavor contribution as the aromatic
malt!  How often have you used a few ounces of this or a few ounces of
that trying to get a subtle flavor contribution?  Then, WHAM!  You hit it
with 5% starter solution. 

Unfortunately the alternatives are few and not satisfactory.  One can
create the blandest starter possible from the palest dry malt, but the
starter still finishes as BAD beer.  One can save and wash yeast slurry
from batch to batch, but often it is a long time between batches.  One can
let the starter ferment out and flocculate, decanting the liquid portion
before pitching, but this pitches an inactive starter.  One can switch to
dry yeast but this is also pitching an inactive starter. 

Everyone needs to find their own answer, but personally, I've decided that
yeasties are hale and hearty buggers and that my process can stand
pitching an inactive starter.  I create the starter solution (1.045) from
pale dry malt and Yeast Nitrogen Base (yeast nutrient) and a plate
scraping, let the starter ferment until it begins to flocculate, then I
refrigerate (!) to really drop the yeasties and create a yeast cake.  I
refrigerate anywhere from a few days to a couple of weeks depending on the
insanity in my life that dictates my brewing schedule.  On brew day when I
start the boil I decant the liquid off the yeast cake and let the starter
warm up over the next few hours.  The first cool wort that comes out of my
counterflow chiller goes over the yeast cake and I swirl it up into a
slurry.  I pitch about 2 hours later.  

YNB is basically ammonium sulfate with vitamins and minerals.  I
refrigerate when the solution starts to flocculate (imprecise) because I
am trying to drop active yeast.  Within reason I consider the refrigerator
a time warp.  I wouldn't keep the yeast there for a month (actually I
confess that I have), but I don't sweat up to 2 weeks and try to limit it
to a week. 

Domenick Venezia   demonick at zgi.antispam.com (remove .antispam)



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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:13:12 +0000
From: "Jesse Benbow" <benbowj at ava.bcc.orst.edu>
Subject: CO2 hazard levels

There have been some questions in the last few issues about CO2 and 
at what level it can become a hazard.  I have some experience with 
controlled atmosphere fruit storage, so maybe I can help a bit.  
CO2 itself doesn't present much of a problem, it's when it replaces 
the oxygen that we get into trouble.  Normal air is made up of about 
79% nitrogen, about 21% oxygen, and very small amounts of other 
gasses, one of which is CO2 at about 0.05%.  I'll quote here from a 
safety sheet posted on one of the storage rooms  at work.  
21% oxygen:  breathing, all functions normal.
17% oxygen:  candle is extinguished
12-16% oxygen:  breathing increased and pulse rate accelerated.  
  Ability to maintain attention and to think clearly is diminished, but 
  can be restored with effort.  Muscular coordination for finer skilled 
  movements is somewhat disturbed.
10-14% oxygen:  consciousness continues, but judgment becomes faulty. 
  Severe injuries may cause no pain.  Muscular efforts lead to rapid 
  fatigue, may permantently injure the heart, and may induce vomiting.
6-10% oxygen:  nausea and vomiting may appear.  Legs give way, person 
  cannot walk, stand, or even crawl.  This is often the first and 
  only warning, and it comes too late.  The person may realize he is 
  dying, but does not greatly care.  It is all quite painless.
Less than 6% oxygen:  loss of consciousness in 30-45 seconds if 
  resting, sooner if active.  Breathing in gasps, followed by 
  convulsive movements, then breathing stops.  Heart may continue 
  beating a few minutes, then it stops.
End quote.  So, as someone said the other day, if the pressure relief 
valve on your CO2 cylinder goes, get the hell out and leave the door 
open behind you.  The CO2 won't hurt you, but the lack of oxygen 
will.  By the way, most apples, etc. that you're buying now have been 
stored in rooms with oxygen at around 2%.  This causes their 
"breathing" to slow down and the fruit keeps longer.  Nitrogen is 
generally used to flush out the oxygen because it's cheap and inert.  
CO2 can combine with water on the fruit to make carbonic acid and 
cause burn spots.

Jesse Benbow in Medford, OR



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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 98 11:12:47 CDT
From: dpm at stat.nielsen.com (Dave Mundo)
Subject: Thanks, Easter Bunny!

So a few months ago a friend told me she had a bunch of beer bottles she'd
give me if I wanted them for brewing.  Sure, I said, figuring they'd be a
case of clear MGD twist-offs that I'd end up throwing out.

But I got them on Easter. . .a big box of Grolsch 16 oz swing-top bottles!
They're pretty old (pretty grimy) but I think they're salvageable.  The swing-
tops seem to be porcelain, too (I think they make them with plastic now).
A few are green, but most of them are dark brown. . .perfect for brewing.

Has anyone used Grolsch bottles for bottling?  Does the swing-top cap allow
for sufficient carbonation?  How 'bout cleaning the swing-top?  Any and all
tips are welcome.

Thanks-
Dave Mundo


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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:32:40 -0400
From: "Spies, James" <Jams at mlis.state.md.us>
Subject: Phil's Phloater Hell

All -

Steve Rockey recently commented about grains getting under the Phil's
Phalse Bottom at dough in, and I thought I'd post a copy of my response
in case it helps anyone else who has had this problem.  It seems to work
for me.

>>>I too mash in a Gott, and have had the same problems with grain getting
under the phalse bottom.  I even tried to have a friend hold the
thing down with barbecue tongs while I doughed in, to no avail.  I
hit upon an idea, however, that seems to work. Take enough 1/2" ID
tubing to fit all the way around the bottom of your cooler (I'm
assuming that the bottom goes almost all the way to the sides of your
5 gal), and put about 50 to 100 3/8" ball bearings into it.  Seal the
ends with food grade silicone caulk, or size 000 stoppers, and place
it around the perimiter of the false bottom.  The weight of the ball
bearings will hold down the phloater.  Another suggestion wiould be
to send your 9" phalse bottom back to Listermann and get the 12"
size.  Then, just cut the bottom down until you get a snug fit.  That
should work also.<<<

Best,

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:20:10 -0700
From: smurman at best.com
Subject: Oregon Pale Ale experiment


Just read about the Oregon Pale Ale experiment in the latest HBD, err
BT.  One tidbit that caught my attention was the the Wild Duck brewery
was only using a 15 minute mash time, yet still hit the same gravity
and attenuation as the other brewers.  Keep in mind though, that this
is a commercial brewery, and their dough-in probably takes close to 1
hour.  They also had a 30 min. recirculation period, which was about
twice the average of the other brewers.

There's been speculation here that a 60 min. sacc. rest wasn't
necessary.  The one negative I can remember being brought up was an
increased chance of starch being carried over to the boil.  Mayhaps
they recirculate longer to clear the starch bits?  Speculation
obviously.  The beer itself didn't garner much praise, but then again,
it didn't get really slammed either.  The reviews of sensory
perception were cursory (for a reason), but I got the impression it
wasn't the best or the worst of the lot.

I just found it interesting that Wild Duck has decided to cut their
brew time by about 30 minutes.  I don't know if that small of a time
savings is really worth it though.

SM


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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:22:52 -0500
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: CO2 Detectors

Kenneth posted about CO2 detectors. 

I have never heard of a CO2 detector.  But, when you are worried about
CO2, you  are really worrying  about asphyxiation from lack of oxygen. 
So what you really need is an O2 meter.  There are several models
available from CME (Cental Mining Equipment), Forestry Supply, and other
sources.  Check out companies who market safety supplies for industrial
applications.  

All of the O2 meters that I have seen have an alarm you can set when
the O2 level drops too low (usually around 20 percent).  There are also
multimeters available that measure different combinations of gasses. 
One particular model that I have seen measures CO, O2, and explosive
level of the atmosphere.  This way if you are brewing inside with
propane while you are drinking beer that was dispensed with CO2, you
will know whether you should evacuate due to a propane leak
(explosive conditions - above the lower explosive limit), CO poisoning
(incomplete combustion of propane),  or simply lack a of O2.

Brew on,

Paul Niebergall


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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:20:04 -0500
From: Pete Kapusta <pkapusta at informix.com>
Subject: Priming rates

I have been priming with 3/4 cup of corn sugar, with inconsistent results
in the amount of carbonation from batch to batch.  I attribute this to an
inaccurate means of measuring the amount of corn sugar used.  

What is the "recommended" corn sugar amount for priming a 5 gallon batch in
OUNCES of weight, not cups.  Also, can anyone tell me the approximate
number of ounces (weight) in a cup (8 ounces liquid) of corn sugar, so that
I could fine-tune my priming rates.

 - Pete Kapusta
  Elgin, Illinois


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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:26:36 -0400
From: Brad Johnson <bjohnson at berkshire.net>
Subject: RE:Co2 detectors

Christopher Tkach wrote:
	
Ok, I may get slammed for this, but I believe that CO2 is not harmful to 
a human directly, afterall it's in the air we all breath, along with 
other gases.  What you should be worried about is the amount of oxygen 
(O2) in the air, which (last time I checked) is what is required for us 
to live.

>From a medical perspective, CO2 is indeed very harmful, and even 
life-threatening. (I am a Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist [CRNA] 
with a Master's in Science). I work daily with patients undergoing 
general anesthesia. Using spectrophotometry, we analyze the mixture of 
gases going in and out of the respiratory system. "Room air" is 21% O2 
and 79% Nitrogen, 0% CO2. In the alveolus of the lung and in the 
bloodstream the CO2 concentration is about 5%. Re-breathing CO2 has a 
dramatic effect of the human body - it is the most potent chemical in 
the body for stimulating respiration; it stimulates the entire 
sympathetic nervous system, as well as dilating blood vessels in the 
brain. An increased CO2 level in the body, even in the presence of 
elevated O2 levels, results in accelerated heart rate, breathing rate, 
pounding headache, panic, and sets the stage for life-threatening 
acidosis as the CO2 breaks down (review the fils "Apollo 7" for a 
graphic depiction of CO2 intoxication). You could replicate the 
experience to a small degree by taking a full breath from an actively 
fermenting carboy - but I wouldn't recommend it.

Brad Johnson 
Berkshire BroadArrow Brewery
Bjohnson at berkshire.net



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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:10:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Sam Smith clear bottles

| Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:40:19 -0600 (MDT)
| From: Adam Holmes <adamholm at holly.ColoState.EDU>
| Subject: Sam Smith clear bottles
|  
| I've read about how light can affect beer in a negative way.  Thus, most
| brewers choose brown bottles that cut down most light transmission to the
| beer.  So why does the famous Samual Smith Brewery put most of their beer
| in clear bottles.

Because they are FOOLS who think the American market is all about
how a beer *looks*!

|                    Are the porters and oatmeal stouts I've had been less
| than perfect?  Do they taste much different coming out of a keg in an
| English pub?   I always think their beer tastes superb (especially the
| Imperial Stout) so I wonder how much of an effect this light has on beer.
|  
| Just curious,
| Adam Holmes
| Fort Collins, CO 

I may have a low tolerence for skunkiness, but I have NEVER had a Sam
Smith's bottled beer that didn't have at least a noticable amount
of skunkiness!  (And lots of them were almost undrinkable.)

(Mind you, I haven't bought any of their porters or stouts in a long time.
They might be just fine.)

I even bought my last 6 pack of Nut-Brown at a Trader Joes by unboxing
one of their sealed boxes myself, figuring that the light didn't get a
chance to ruin the beer.  But it was still slightly skunky also.  I guess
it could have happened on the way home; but I've heard that *heat*
(poor shipping conditions) will also do this to a beer.  They are fine
beers, but they are always ruined by light in my experience.

I'd buy much more of Sam Smith's beer if they would just put them
in brown bottles!

If you want an awesome Pale Ale that isn't ruined by light,
try Fuller's London Pride (in *brown* bottles).  My favorite!

 -Alan in Fremont, CA


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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:22:37 -6
From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: Jethro's Barleywine

Dear Friends,

I can't help myself, I just have to pipe up and say that I was, at
the time, one of the members of Sydney's Eastern Suburbs Brewmakers
(not Northern suburbs, sorry Rob old son) who had the good fortune
to try the Big 12 Barleywine prior to its submission to the GABF. Rob
Moline's usual modesty didn't cover the fact that he spent lots of
his own money to get not only the Big 12 but a host of his other
brews across the Pacific (with me as a willing caddy for some of it)
for us to sample, to our delight.  It's no understatement to say
that it's the best BW I have had yet.  Quite fitting for the Big Brew
event.

Cheers, Dave in Dallas
- ---
*****************************************************************************
   Dave Draper, Dept Geosciences, U. Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX 75083
   ddraper at utdallas.edu (commercial email unwelcome) WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper
                 Beer page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer.html
I am speaking from a materials perspective... ---John Palmer



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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:08:45 EST
From: "Barry Wertheimer" <wertheim at LIBRA.LAW.UTK.EDU>
Subject: Keg Leakage

Brewers,

One of my cornelius kegs (I think this problem is confined to one 
keg) sometimes overflows beer out of the liquid out fitting.  It does 
this when sitting in my chest freezer, with no hoses attached to 
either fitting.  The pressure in the keg does not seem excessive.  
What might cause this sort of thing?
- ----------------------------
Barry Wertheimer
wertheim at libra.law.utk.edu
Knoxville, TN


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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:02:20 -0400
From: terry at brewfellows.com (Terry White)
Subject: Gott vs Igloo

I need to add my two cents on this topic.  A couple of years ago I was
looking to buy a Gott cooler for mashing when a friend of mine gave me
an Igloo 10 gallon cooler.  His employer was throwing it away because
the spigot was broken.  I replaced the spigot and have used this Igloo
for mashing ever since.  I have experienced no warping at high
temperatures, it holds temperature well and has helped me make a bunch
of damn good beer (IMHO). I'd say go with the best deal.

Terry 


- -- 

Brewfellow's Beer & Wine Making Supplies
Buffalo, New York
http://brewfellows.com


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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 98 18:47:42 CDT
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Gott/Igloo

Al K says the Igloo cooler will not stand up to mash temps but that has not
been my experience.  I have been using one for a couple of years and have
noticed no problem.  I do have my Phil's Phalse bottom attached to the cooler
bottom with stainless screws to keep it from floating but I have not noticed
any buckling of the bottom or sides.  I will double check it this weekend but
I think I would have noticed any significant buckling.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com


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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 98 20:07:23 -0600
From: Sherry Heflin <sheflin at shreve.net>
Subject: Chemistry Help

Hi all,
    I am finishing up a Chemistry Lab class in a couple of weeks and our 
prof has told us that we must analyze a beverage over the next three 
weeks and write up a report for the final. I would like to document the 
brewing/fermentation procedure and run several test from samples at 
different stages of development.As of now I'm gonna do a water analysis 
and brew a Honey Porter which I plan to take several samples during the 
mash and run test on starch/sugars levels as the mash progresses and as 
sugars are depleted during sparging. I could do the same thing during 
fermentation and moniter glucose levels as fermentation progresses. I 
know there are probably a slew of things that could be tested for and was 
wondering if ya'll could lead me in the right direction as to some of the 
more interesting test that could be run since we were told if the school 
had the equipment we could run the test. Send me your thoughts and ideas. 
I could really use an A on this. Saw the bit on Tommy Knocker beer. I was 
in Idaho Springs last summer and thought their Red Eye Lager was real 
tasty. Had a malt character to it that I sure wish I could duplicate. 
Someone said that they could get party pigs of this brew in Kansas I 
believe. Has anyone ever seen these in Dallas or Austen.?
Bodie Heflin
Dilla Brewery
Shreveport La.
Home of the Mudbugs 


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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:17:22 -0500
From: Dana Edgell <edgell at quantum-net.com>
Subject: Al tubing

Hey HBD,

I want to make a jockey box but I have read that copper tubes are bad
because copper can oxidize beer and stainless steel tubing is too expensive
for me.

What about aluminum tubing? Will it oxidized the beer like copper? It is
basically the same price as copper and much less than Stainless steel.

Any comments from anyone?

Dana Edgell

PS: I am NOT concerned about Alzheimers and do not want to resurect that
thread. I am just curious about chemical effects on beer.
- ---------------------------------------------------------
Dana Edgell                     edgell at quantum-net.com
Edge Ale Brewery                http://www.quantum-net.com/edge_ale
San Diego                         home of the Water Treatment Workpage



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---